Did Henry Ford Use Old Shipping Crates For Floorboards In The Model T?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ก.ย. 2023
- Did you know that Henry Ford had suppliers put their products in crates that ford required specific sizes and special kinds of wood so that Ford could use them for floorboards in the Model T? If you’ve been around anyone who loves to talk about old cars, eventually you will hear the story about Henry Ford using wooden crates for floorboards in his Model T. So is it true? Would Ford really use old crates? Well, there’s an old legend that if you tell a lie long enough, you begin to believe that lie as absolute truth. This legend is old, and told by many a person so let’s investigate it once and for all. I am going to talk about facts that I have researched and tell you what I believe. Then, you can decide for yourself!
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My 1930 Ford Town Sedan has eyebrow fenders and still has the original interior. It's certainly worn but it still is functional. I have rebuilt the driveline, suspension, and tie rods, installed a modernized Model A motor with oversized intake valves, insert bearings, and a high compression head. I also have a lightened flywheel and V8 clutch. The car comfortably cruises at 50MPH but I've had it up to 60MPH. I have also insulated and installed sound deadener which has made the car enjoyable to be in even at 90 degrees.
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If he did, it would honestly be one of the most brilliant uses of packaging ever.
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He did.
Was aware of this fifty years ago for my dad’s model A......
He was Crazy Like a Fox... Onenof My Late Father's Sayings. But When he was Alive... He was Always Early. Havha
Yes he actually did that, his friend "Kingsford" help make it happen.
I’m an Architect and I find “real“ recycling in old buildings and furniture all the time. My favorite was metal ductwork made from potato chip cans. Crate wood is common in furniture and buildings.
Hi and welcome to the channel! Thanks for sharing your findings!
In the seventies we always heard about Toyota Corollas using Schlitz beer cans for the car bodies!
I live in Bulgaria now - the old Soviet-era mindset of recycling is still prevalent. Every gym has old mining conveyor belt on the floor as rubber mats. Its 5 feet wide, 1 inch thick, cut it to length, clean and polish it and it will last the life of the gym.
No one buys anything new if they can find a way of reusing something.
I have seen roofing shingles made from old metal cans that had contained cyanide. It was in an old mining ghost town, where cyanide was used in the extraction of gold from the ore. The shingles are clearly imposed with the word cyanide.
Did lots of Demo when I was a kid . It was so much fun finding treasures in those old buildings.
I did my term paper in 1967 on "The history of the American automobile of the 20th century" and I remember one of my sources for this term paper indicated that Henry Ford purchased transmissions and rear ends from the Dodge brothers and he firmly had an agreement from then that those items be shipped in wooden crates that specifically were of a certain size and already had holes drilled in them so they could be used for floor boards for some of his cars. I do believe this to be true. They were not old shipping crates but new ones already to be used in some of his cars.
Hi and welcome to the channel. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
It wouldn't even be just "saving money" - he'd still be paying for that wood, and for the modifications to make the crate fit what he's building. Yes, there are some savings, but the biggest part is that he only has to order the wood _once_.
Henry Ford, Thomas Edison, Edward Kingsford, and Harvey Firestone formed an enduring professional and personal attachment through their shared enthusiasm for innovation, scientific advancement, and a genuine sense of boyish adventure. I can't imagine why the story of these four hasn't become a major motion picture.
That would be cool!
The term "old crates" is used several times in this video. Wouldn't the wood packing crates holding new parts - for the assembly of new Model T's - themselves be new or fresh? With the production numbers of new Model T's increasing every model year (as quoted in the video), The volume of new parts being fed to assembly line workers (and therefore the packing crates that contained them), in all Ford plants, must have been tremendous.
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Yes, but it sounds more sinister to call them old packing crates. Wood is wood, as they say. Doesn't anybody say that? No? Darn!❤
@@SuperChicken666 Part of the problem is that wood isn't wood. Or more specifically, Not all wood is created equal. When you start separating wooden logs into separate boards/planks, different parts of the log are going to yield different quality wood. Shipping containers typically utilize the lowest quality wood available, the type with knots and grains that aren't straight. It makes sense too, because those crates are going to take a beating, but nobody cares how good a crate looks, if the part inside is safe.
Even on something as seemingly insignificant as a floorboard, quality matters. Given more time to think it over, I am far more certain today that Henry Ford would not have used shipping crates as part of the furniture in his cars. I do consider floorboards to be furniture.
@@Skyfighter64 seriously everyone wants to adore something that appears smart it's gross. the crates absolutely sat in yards waiting to get used not in warehouses which is fine if you're not gonna use it
@@Skyfighter64omg stfu the board were fine quit trying to be an internet know it all when you’re more clueless than most.
The model T was shipped unassembled in a crate by rail… one car per crate. They were shipped to finishing plants all over the country. He was able to ship so many more cars that it covered the plant and the labor and still added to the profits.
It would be super easy for the floor of the crate to be cut out and used as a floor.
As you indicated, he reused all crates though.
But if people saw crates, and then saw a ‘plywood’ floor, I could see people putting 2 and 2 together.
@Project_Low_Expectations. ALL Of The Old Pictures That I've Seen Of Model T Ford's, Were Being ASSEMBLED AT THE FACTORY, Driven Out Of The Factory, Lined Up Outside Waiting For Shipment, And WERE ALL Completely Assembled. So Your Comment About Putting Cars Together At A Dealership Doesn't Hold Water. There ARE A Few Pictures Of Some Cars Partially Assembled Sitting Outside Of Dealerships, For Those Customers That Wanted THEIR OWN Bodies Installed On Them. Like Maybe Taxis, Small Busses, Delivery Trucks Or Other Applications. But NOT The Average Customer That Wanted The Bodies That Ford Advertised...
@@davemckolanis4683
I said finishing plant… not dealer.
Here’s a wiki about the one here in Columbus. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Motor_Company_-_Columbus_Assembly_Plant
I didn’t explain it very well last night when I posted my comment. But the wiki link explains it better.
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Why is every letter in your reply capitalized? I don't believe I have ever seen that in any comment or reply.@@davemckolanis4683
Not being picky but the wood back then was not plywood. That was made later i believe. Real wood is just wood and if wood was used from the crates then is is slightly used wood by one as long as the crates were fresh new wood when it was cut from the tree it was born from.
I first heard that story in the late 60s and it made perfect sense. The crates contained one gearbox each with the crate panels drilled with holes by the gearbox supplier in exactly the place Ford wanted them. When the crates went to the factory floor they were disassembled and the crate panels were taken to the floor and body work station. It's simple, cost saving and clever. What is there not to believe? Obviously Henry would have denied it but he did many things he should not have done. (Another story about Ford was that there were so many workers' lunch wrappers floating around the factory, it paid the company to collect and recycle them.)
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This is also the story I heard. The use of the word "Old" in video is very misleading and to my mind incorrect. It makes perfect, as every car needed 1 gearbox and 1 set of floorboards.
i wouldn't say he "should not have done" this. It's simply cost-effective. Wood is wood.
Why should he not have done it? He'd be paying for the crate, the specifications for the construction, and the item inside. It'd just be saving having to bring in wood _twice_, plus disposing of the crate(s).
yeah same as the ww2 and indian story's its same thing in the end only a few brands and people where better after the wars and also the car brands exists because of ww2 it aint hard 2 believe its the truth
What I always heard from my grandpa who worked in a ford garage as a lead mechanic was when he first was building the model T meaning early years when dodge brothers were building the engines and before he built everything in house was that ford ordered the seats and had the manufacturer of the seats bolt them down to the crate and that the bottom of crate had to be cut to a certain size so when they took the top off it fit one section of floor and the bottom with seat still bolted would fit where the seat was mounted and the sides had a spot, so not old crates but new crates built to his specifications for use
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Ford's frugality was legendary, as was a little bit of awe with his operation. I found an old joke book in my grandfather's stuff, and inside there was one about a farmer who tore down his old barn. He was left with a pile of rusty tin and his neighbor suggested the Ford Motor company might be able to use it. He packed it up and sent it off. Six weeks later there was a Model T in his driveway. It had a note on it that read," Dear sir, your car was the worst wreck we have ever seen, but we have fixed it and returned it to you for many more years of motoring," Ford Motor Company
Hi and welcome to the channel! What a great story.
My dad told me many years ago that Henry had the engines for the Model A's, shipped to the assembly plant in nice wooden crates The crates weren't just 'thrown together.' They were nicely crafted and were later used to make the floor boards in our 1930 Model A. Dad bought it from the original owner in Erie, Pa. in 1965 before shipping off to Vietnam. The old girl sat in my Grandparents garage at 1431 Oakmont Ave until around 1999, when dad had a Model A club restore it. Dad has been gone for 16 years, but I still have the A as well as the A title, as the lady at the DMV told us. She said 'hang onto this', It's the original 1930 title where the first owner signed it over to my dad. Of course, the DMV sent us a new title when dad signed it over to me. I will pass it on to my Nephew in a few years. We both share my dads name right down to the middle initial.
It sounds like you have some very special memories of your father and his car!
The story that I heard back in the late '80s was that he specified that the cast iron engine blocks be shipped into the plant in crates of specific dimensions, made only of a certain kind of wood. The crates were to be delivered to a specific loading dock, and were only to be touched by a certain crew of workers who were trained to open the crates and remove the engine blocks without damaging any of the wood. The wood was then used for the floorboards of the Model T. When the engine block supplier learned what was being done with the crates, it was not too happy for being hoodwinked, but it had to honor the contract. And it was only done in 1914 or '15, when Ford was in shaky financial condition. It was at that same time that Henry Ford decided to offer the Model T in just one color -- black -- because black paint cured more quickly than the other colors that had been offered in previous years. The single color continued for the rest of the Model T's life, but suppliers learned of the engine crate trick, and ensured that they wouldn't be similarly tricked in following years. That crate trick enabled Ford to stay in business during a crucial time for the company.
Hi and welcome to the channel! I've heard a similar version of that story too.
Thanks for your input. Maybe I’m missing something, but why would the supplier care what Ford did with the shipping crate? The buyer had paid for the item, shipping and materials. Ford or any other buyer can do as they please with what’s shipped. And if Ford was specifying where the screws were placed or other special requirements, it was factored in during the contract by the supplier.
@@BeckVMH The supplier obviously wanted the contract, and Ford had put the contract out to multiple suppliers. Clearly, other suppliers passed on the contract due to the added cost associated with the specific crate requirements. I'm sure that, had the supplier known of the intended use of the shipping crates, it would have factored that into its bid and quoted a higher price.
When I built our 20' Cruising Yawl back in 1992, I used the plywood from packing crates for several of the bulkheads. The thing is, they were Philippine Mahogany, 5-ply, and glued with waterproof glues. They were free from where I worked, used to ship cast iron parts from India. The wood was beautiful! I also used the scraps from a dumpster in the back of a pool table factory... they were cast-off scraps which were too small for their uses, but many were perfect for many parts of the boat.
The video of the build is in my YT account.
Hi and welcome to the channel! Your build sounds beautiful!
I heard Ford used pallets to mak Charcoal briquettes. They would not be "old" crates, it makes sense to use whatever to produce product. I remember a card in the glove box of an Internation Harvester truck that listed the origin for any 'replacement' assemble (i.e. brakes, starter, et cetera) @7:52, That guy is Not whispering a secret to Edison, Edison was going Deaf. The guy is shouting into Edison's ear.
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Being in the engine business in south Louisiana we had customers who got whatever they requested when it came to packageing. And we had to wrap their purchases in a specific color plastic wrap and wood pallets of specific sizes. This was just for product safety. I read that Ford had requirement for vendors to use certain wood types and sizes. You certainly not want your competition to know this. Take care.
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I worked for a man in his early eighties and he said he worked for ford making floor boards and lumber in the truck beds. His collection of manuals from ford for repairing the car... this manual got away from me. There were five of them that were published but the ones I had were the hand set type writer style, and the pictures used inside were hand drawn to show different stuff. "Albert Rosco Wilson" was this mans name whom I worked for in the fifties.... he married a woman whose name was Lanora May Wilson and she did the cooking, they had been together since the late nineteen hundreds as like 1890 something. She also said her husband at that time.... they did not like "Old Henry Ford" and had some choice names but not swear words, about one crew who was just to inspect those crates before disassembly, and here you ask "why take apart"??? and so to answer it was ; At that time, Ford couldn't afford to make his own engine blocks so he contracted it out. After so many engine blocks were ready to ship, those pallets had to be a certain size requirement. He would not pay and refused shipment of any that the crate did not meet specifications. Another crew was responsible to disassemble them. Men got fired if they broke any of them. He said to me, thats Albert Rosco Wilson, that he was fired and hired back three times in one day. He said it was a great day because Ford paid on the spot if you were fired. I believe the wage was around five dollars a day and then increased to around ten dollars at its highest pay... thing was if you were fired, you left that plant immediately. If you say had four dollars and eighty cents wage coming because they figured it out as a hourly if fired and you didn't get the whole days wage. Anyway, the four dollars and eighty cents was rounded to five and then you left. Now your twenty cents up on wage right?? Well he gets hired right back on with a touch of incentive pay.... and a few hours go by and he got fired again.... same scenario plus that incentive pay. Long and short of it was he got paid that night for the days worked and his wages from the incentive plus the round up money which he said was close to a dollar.... a dollar would get you ten pounds of hamburger to cook... your money was worth something. Yes a good many stories from him. "Rocky" as we named Albert was a straight eight gentleman whom was a pleasure plus my own personal friend
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@morgansword
Paragraphs. Try using them.
Thanks for putting this together. One note though. Henry Ford did not invent the assembly line. It was invented by Ranson E. Olds when he was manufacturing the curved dash Olds.
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Bzzzz .. wrong .. it was taken from meat processing plants .. butchers and hearing this is the 1st time in my Detroit based gearhead history buff ears have ever heard that
My family's company was Eggers Plywood Manufacturing Company of Two Rivers, Wisconsin, founded in 1888. In the early 1950s, my father told me the story that the Company had a contract with Ford for seating, and that the contract specified how the shipping containers were to be built so the containers could be used for flooring. My father (born in 1899, US Navy 1917-1935, then company president) probably didn't personally deal with the Ford contract, but his father, my grandfather, most certainly did. I'm strongly inclined to believe the story.
Hi and welcome to the channel! That is some insightful information. Thank you for sharing.
I've been to your family's company many times, only at the shipping dock though.
@@shortmoneytrucker964 Nice to hear. The old original buildings on the river in Two Rivers, or the new building across from the Two Rivers High School? Or in Oshcosh?
I received a monthly leaflet as a Ford employee around 20 years ago. It had reference to Ford telling suppliers to ship parts in wooden containers at a specific dimension and wood type, I think it was oak, to continue doing business with Ford. Then the wood was used in production.
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I read about workers at the Ford Torino plant workers in the seventies skipping a lot of the screws required to assemble the dashboard on Fridays to get out of the plant earlier, and a friend of mine who worked there confirmed that, and other things simply left out! So I am not surprised!
@@agems56That doesn’t make sense as not putting all the parts on a vehicle doesn’t change the production hours. How would that even have anything to do with the topic of this video.
Quota system!
Has nothing to do with Ford using wood from crates @@agems56
My grandfather worked for Ford, was friends with him. My grandfather told that Ford ordered axle shipping boxes for the floorboards to meet certain dimensions
. Ford even specified two holes be drilled in the sides of the crates where the two pedal shafts were located. Makes perfect sense to do that.
Hi and welcome to the channel! Thanks for sharing this cool story!
Wow, 15 minutes of my life that did not waste on TH-cam, GREAT job, your pictures and commentary are amazing, subscribed
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If you've ever tried taking apart a palette to salvage the wood, and use it to make something else, you know it's barely worth it. If you're young, and starting out, and have more time than money, you can reuse wood to make a one-of project that shows off your capabilities. For mass production, it's so much better economy to chop down a forest, saw the logs into planks, ticker them, and use them as they get dry enough.
In those days, they used what was called a "common" nail. Today, crates/pallets are either stapled, nailed with ring shank nails, or occasionally a cc sinker nail. Common nails were....well...common right through the 1950's when the cc sinker started taking over. Common nails come apart very very easily so reusing a pallet or crate back then would be different than trying to do it today.
@@smartysmarty1714 Shipping Crates Have ALWAYS Been Made Of 2nd Hand Wood. So It Would Be STUPID For Ford, (Or ANY Car Manufacturer), To Use Sub Standard Products In A NEW CAR. Wheel Spokes With Soft Crate Wood Having Cracks And Knots In It Would Be A Quality DISASTER. And Sagging And Splintering Crate Wood Floors Would Soon END The Car Sales Pretty Quick...
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Didn't they have a slang term for the Model T were they referred to it as an old crate?
G'day from Australia. Good video, but I may have an acceptation.
Australia had large import tariffs on complete cars, so it was common practice to import the running chassis and build the bodies locally. Model T's were imported from Canada (Commonwealth country, reduced tariffs) with bodies made by various body builders including Holden (before GM buyout), who made the best Model T bodies in Aust.
Holden's official history states that they certainly did use the crates as floor boards of Model T's. There is even a report of them taking down a corrugated iron fence, and feeding the sheets through the presses. This was due to steel shortages during the depression.
This was an 'end of the line' factory, on the other side of the world where only complete cars went out the gate. If the crates are usable, then don't wast them. Or you can pay to get rid of them.
Ford eventually built a factory to produce the 1960 Falcon, and another story: When building the factory, a local engineer asked the American engineer "why is the roof so heavy duty?" And was told " This is the same design as in Michigan, and the same design is used everywhere around the world, and Henry saves a lot of money on architects." To which the local answered "But, we're never gonna get 8 feet of snow in Melbourne. One inch was the record".
Another story might be how that factory almost closed, just a few years later.
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I bet Ford's Aussie employees were thankful for that heavy duty roof when the drop bears fell.
Holden would know...as they at one point in history were building (in Adelaide I think?) the 'Deluxe' Model T Ford bodies for Tarrant Motors Pty Ltd in Melbourne.
The first Ford Plant to open in Australia was in 1925 at Geelong in Victoria.
The Australian 1932-1934 Fords had a partial steel floor at the rear of the car - and the front to middle (or whatever) was made of wood.
To me it's possible that Australian Model T Fords up to 1934 Fords used wood from shipping crates for floorboards...though I think they used ash wood for the
actual body frames when possible?
There was also a number of Model T Ford cars in sold in Australia between 1909 and 1916 (brass radiator models) that had imported bodies - instead of locally coach made.
I think these complete cars came from Canada (already RHD) in large boxes...and required partial assembly here?
There is a similar legend relating to William Lyons (Jaguar Cars), with his first cars, the Swallows, the interior door trims were made from old packing crates. This could make sense as the reverse side of these are rough saw and the finished faces were smoothed & were with a routed edge detail and then given a paint effect of mahogany. However, the quality of the wood is knot-free and is described as a "white wood", but from what species of tree, no-one seems to know. My view is the quality is much better than is needed for a packing crate!
We do know that after the Second World War, the Austin Motor Co., then BMC (British Motor Corporation) set up a factory in Wales manned by disabled miners, using off-cuts of metal from the main manufacturing plants to fabricate a child's pedal car - the J40 and also the Pathfinder. An ingenious use of waste, and gave a disabled labour force an economic value.
Another ingenious use of waste material is the body panels for the East German Tranbant, waste cotton from Russia was formed into a sort of plastic - brilliant!
Interesting analysis, thanks for sharing.
Hi and welcome to the channel! Thanks for sharing your information too!
Excellent video! Thank you for this deep dive.
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Reusing creates was a common practice. Considering how much lumber they'd need, I'm doubtful they could have relied on the lumber available from crates.
Hi and welcome to the channel. I agree with you.
Great videos & photos of the old Ford plants. Thanks.
Hi Rosa and welcome to the channel! Thanks for your comment.
Thank you for a detailed story. I hadn't heard about reusing crates for shipping parts back out, but it makes sense. I would think there would still be a lot of leftover wood. I do recall my friend's granddad telling us his job delivering Fords from the rail depot, here in Oregon. These were the basic chassis and the temporary driver's seat was actually the crate containing all the other bits for final assembly. They'd drive them away and to the shop that'd build the truck body.
Hi and welcome to the channel! There could have been. I honestly don't know what was left and what was done with it. I only researched the floorboard myth.
@@kensmithgallery4432 Maybe sent to Kingsford? As you said, he didn't like waste... and aged sawdust makes better briquettes.
First let me say I really enjoyed the Mini~Doc and especially the Pictures as they are quite a prize for me to see them as I was born a "Car Guy" and in my younger years I Hot Rodded many and restored a '33 Ford and a '53 GMC Pickup and a '55 Chevy and all I have left is the great memories of those times~! I also remember us using whatever we could find on our cars and good Marine plywood would have been a valuable commodity to have on hand for many repairs on rusted out floorboards and then we would Fiberglass over them to make them waterproof. Henry was a real stickler and he would have used this wood in a New York minute for floorboards in some of his cars~! (Glad to be a New Subscriber today)!!
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Fwiw, as a kid, I work in a machine shop with a very old tool maker who was around at the end of the Model T days. And he told me that T pickups had notoriously flimsy floorboards, which would break in farm service. Farmers would replace the boards with lumber from packing crates which were readily available from farm equipment dealers
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I bet he’s sharp, I’d love to work with a guy like that.
@@alanmeyers3957 he was a genius of the old school...made even basic tools like drill bits, am could harden steel with bone meal and an open forge....I thought that stuff was too old fashioned but I'm amazed today what that generation could do without computers
With the thickness changed and gluing boards together to produce the floorboards, the shipping, crate boards could have been planed down and glued together, and there would be no way to distinguish them from any other properly age to wood of the same type. Especially since he specified how old the crate was to be made and the size and support to the crate it’s quite likely crates we use floorboard and other car parks. There is a good chance that Ford was providing the wood for the crates and it came from the same factory that would guarantee that the crate boards would be indistinguishable from any other boards in the car and be of the type of wood and was cut to the thickness of the boards he was using before it was plainer for final use. They would then be plained and put into the floorboard stock.
Hi and welcome to the channel. That certainly makes sense and I could see that as a possibility.
In 1997, at an engineering company I worked for, we had a large legacy of standards, restricting engineers in materials, dimensions and all kinds of things. As a new engineer, it was my duty to read all those standards. I came across one that said, "mahogany shall not be used for tooling plates, February 1969". That was an early one because the company started in 1965. Since every standard was dated, you could see the progression. It was always unfortunate that the standards did not include reasons. I could just imagine the berating an engineer got in 1968 that led to this stunning new standard.
Fascinating story! Thanks for sharing!
When I herd this story there were details that are not included in this video, that would indicate that the crates were NOT made of old scrap wood. The details being that Ford told the suppliers that he wanted the crates out of a specific wood and that the crates were a specific size and shape and were not nailed together, instead using screws so as it would be faster for opening the crates and without damaging the wood. According to what I herd the wood from the crates were already cut to shape to fit in the model T with out having to spend time cutting the wood to the right shape and size. Weather this is true or not, it does conflict with the argument that it would be too time consuming for his workers to salvage the wood to make model T's
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That's pretty much the story my father told me as well. With the added detail that Ford had sent the shipper the cut sheet so the panels were already drilled at prescribed distances so they could be mounted in the car with fasteners using the holes to put the bolts through.
heard.
Also what a VP of Production told us during part of a "Work Smarter, Not Harder" exercise. Very carefully specified panels for transmission shipping crates so they would bolt right in to the car frame. The only real thing missing from that story is Why would a shipping crate need to have those slots cut out of them (shown in the photos for pedals and levers)?
@@gregbrooks3577 and Whether !
In a high volume manufacturing process it would be hard to depend on shipping crates for a finished part. Consistent Part size & volume numbers would dictate it NOT meet assembly availability requirements.
I do like the thought of seeing an old model A with a shipping crate floor board as a hint of truth to the myth.
Thank you for your video
Hi Fred and welcome to the channel! I agree that adding an old crate would continue the legend onward!
The previous owner of my house was a technical drawing teacher , all the presses were made from Volkswagen crates, beetle cars were assembled in Dublin shipped from Frankfurt from the 1950's.
Hi and welcome to the channel! Thanks for sharing this story.
I heard that Ford, who had tons of parts made for them by different manufactures, would have a set of specifications of the building of certain shipping crates which included dimensions and the types of screws and how many of them per shipping crate. The manufactures knowing the volume of parts Ford desired, as you mentioned production numbers in your video, would happily comply so as not to lose his business. So yeah he had his workers disable the crate which had the exact size of the wood already cut to specifications to fit on the cars. The screws, which were also stored for securing other parts on the car were also used. Smart idea if you ask me. Think of the money, time and labor saved doing this.
Hi and welcome to the channel. It's the story I have heard too but never say evidence to support it. Thanks for your comment.
If you can, please refer to David Halberstam's book, "The Best And The Brightest." Because he was John F. Kennedy's {and Lyndon Johnson's} Secretary of Defense, there's a section on Robert McNamara. Of interest here, & in response to your, "different manufacturers," as I recall, after World War Two, Robert & his Think Tank, were looking for something to do. Robert went to work for Ford, & was of great benefit. He noticed that Ford's parts supply system, and warehousing system were very, "old fashioned," inefficient. "Convoluted," is a term that comes to mind. A result of this situation is that used Chevy's, at the time, had significantly higher resale value. {This can happen, because you think that you're doing good, by, "pinching pennies," with this packing crate and screws business, but not recognizing how other inefficiencies, can develop, "creep in," & you think, "We've always done business this way!" And remain oblivious. Robert could see these problems, & worked to streamline conduits of production, make important improvements. He was a big help! {We can discuss, and if you wish, criticize, at another time, his decisions as Secretary of Defense during the Vietnam War period. Perhaps he promoted: Ford Tanks!}
The unused wood was charred and formed into charcoal briquettes to be used for grills and heating. Yes, the Kingsford charcoal, as we know it, was from Ford.
Yes, apparently Henry saw a huge pile of wooden circles and asked what they were and was told they are the holes in the dashboard we fit the instruments into. Henry then had them ground up and turned into charcoal briquets.
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In a plant designed by ... Thomas Edison
@@bronsonwhite611 with electricity by way of Nikola Tesla's alternating current.
My Dad worked for Ferry Cap & Set Screw in Cleveland and told me about Ford's packaging requirements when I was a kid...this is a well know story.
Hi and welcome to the channel. Thanks for sharing your story.
My father owned a tavern outside of Detroit in the 60 s and 70s. One of the patrons claimed to be a witness to the using of the crates for floor boards early on in the model T production. He also related the story that when the Highland Park Plant was being built Ford insisted the floor being poured in the show room be perfectly level. Upon completion Ford poured a cup of water into a cup walked to the middle of the floor and poured the water onto the floor. He then observed that the water began to run off indicating that the floor was not perfectly level and ordered it to be redone. The purpose of this was that at the time seals not being up to modern standards he did not want any leaking oil to run out from under his models on display in the showroom.
Thanks for sharing this story!
My cousin is a big collector of Model T Fords. I’m not going to put too much detail here on TH-cam, but he once bought a Model T that was a sleeper. It had been stored untouched and dry stored for decades. It was, as a restorer of Model Ts, the holy grail of reference vehicles as it was exactly as it had left the factory. All the little things, paint, wiring, lamps, were as originally made. He was especially delighted with the floorboards. This is because they were fitted precisely into place with absolutely no gaps. It was the most perfect floor he had ever seen in a T. Clearly this was intended by design; no production shortcuts. He concluded the floors did fit perfectly at the factory, and the poorer floors in most Ts were a result of wear and tear. And circumstances like mechanics not putting them back in the exact same place as originally done. Good video thanks!!
Hi and welcome to the channel. That sounds like one special car!
It still exists, carefully preserved, in the hands of a loving family in the U.K.
Ken, one of the most researched and detailed narrative I've heard on TH-cam. Well done.
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Thank you for the great video. Even though I am a Model A guy the information, pictures and video clips were educational.
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Great video. I have heard this urban legend for years including the only color you could ever get on a Model T was black. For the number of years of production and the original color charts being available you learn to know better. Did Henry not waste, yeah he was a farmer at heart and farmers back then did not waste. Everyone likes a good story from the past, but I don't think it's was a cost efficient option for a mass production since he had the material and facilities to make new product happen. If anything, I would say that many of the crates became charcoal and others went home with a worker. If you were a worker and dad's old Model T was damaged or bad, could you have taken Ford crates to remake the floor? I would have and laughed saying it was genuine Ford. Henry would have done it as well in the early years. As many businesses that were mad at Ford for increasing wages or when unions were battling Ford there would articles in news print or even the fact the fact it was used to bring down the cost of the Model T would have hit the news. Considering how big Yellow Journalism was in those days Hearst or Pulitzer would have made multiple articles on it.
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Definitely a funny remark,"ford uses old wood fo floorboards in his new cars".... I guess most people dont understand how "old" a tree is when it is cut fown and milled into usable lumber....lol....some of those crates (re used) used to ship parts to the ford factories,well could have been hundreds of years old, remember thete were still huge trees being cut down for all sorts of uses,not only lumber but firewood,paper,pencils,im sure the list goes on,anyhow..... gotta love some Henry Ford,a great man in his own right.....
Hi and welcome to the channel. Yep, you gotta love Henry!
Rumour no.2 was that Ford used dried spanish moss, from Louisiana, as stuffing for his upholstery etc. Spanish moss grows on swamp cypress trees which do not rot and are insect resistant. The locals (so it has been said) dried the moss and packed it in crates made of swamp cypress planks. Ford thought that this wood was just what he needed and specified that the crates should be made from planks of a certain size.
This is a good story, and I suspect that the spanish moss bit may well be true, but I also suspect that the moss would likely have been in bales and the wooden planks part is legend.
But it is a good legend 😊
Oh I love this rumor! Thanks for sharing it!
What I have read over the years is that Ford specified crate size, material, holes, etc from parts suppliers. Once parts were removed the crate was cut and used as lower body.
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All I know is Chevy used 16 oz Budweiser cans slit up the side and installed with hose clamps on their exhaust systems. I know because I saw one once.
Hi and welcome to the channel! Nope! It was Miller....and so goes the Can Wars :-)
@@kensmithgallery4432 ah...but how many hose clamps?
@@talltom1129 You got me there!
Someone on the internet stated Kurt Cobain was a cast member in Glee, so it must be true.
Excellent and very informative video!! Thank you!
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What a great video. Loved the photos and videos and the production quality. For me, no, no floor boards from the factory. However I’m sure many cars were kept going with backyard repairs.
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Very interesting! I had not heard that said about the floor boards, but I can see how it would be easily conjured up and passed on. I also found the origin of Kingsford charcoal very interesting!
Yes, me too. And curiously enough, "ford" is in the name Kingsford!
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I thought I read somewhere that some of the components for the model t were shipped to the factory in boxes engineer designed to be easily pulled apart and used as floor boards without any further cutting or measuring. Sounds either a very clever idea or a very good story.
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Using packing crates for floor boards makes for a good story, but is absolutely false. It never happened. The stories perpetuate the myth. It would have been a brilliant move, but didn't happen.
I have a 30 Tudor. I never believed it but I hear the story all the time at car shows..... "nice car... did you know that Henry... blah blah blah". Like I have never heard that. And knowing that saving and using things economically would not have caused headlines back then because folks wanted a low priced auto anyway. Even today, people think the idea was brilliant. But nice to know some facts regarding the tale. I never thought ti possible because there would have to be one or two crates minimum for each car. And I doubt one crate held parts for only one car. It was an assembly line after all.. Thanks for the great video.
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I'm going to assume that wood from crates was an abundant free repair material. There was no shortage of men skilled enough to joint boards, glue them to make a panel and cut them into a finished floor, or even repair just a section. People of the era were much handier.
BUT @14:14 would Henry have used man power to salvage crates for floor boards? Well let's look back to @8:56 he didn't seem to have an issue using labor to disassemble crates in order to build new crates from the reclaimed wood.
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Why am I mad? I watch these videos to learn stuff and you have convinced me. Grrrrr! It was such an elegant lie and so fit Henry's reputation that I am sure that he's still looking down at us and smiling.
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"he's still looking down at us and smiling". Is he stuck in a hot air balloon?
Also, he was a great admirer of the Austrian corporal. And his use of company goons to brutalize his employees was legendary. So maybe he's in the other place.@@coloradostrong
When I was a kid In 1958 I heard an older man from Michigan that had retired back to North Carolina from Ford Motor Company in 1944 after 42 years, tell my father and 3 other adult male military veterans that in mid1930 the few remaining 'outside parts suppliers' found included in their contracts specifications for the crates size, shape, & the individual wood parts, and assembly means, type & size of bolts etc. used to assemble them, also the wood species to be used.
Then when production began for the 1931 models, as parts were removed, the crates and hardware were placed in containers that could carry them across the plant to the woodshop, there the pieces were inspected, planed, re-inspected, has the sealer-finish sprayed on it, goes through a drier, bolts and wood parts in bin then went to a point on assembly line where the worker removed the boards and bolts, laid them down on the body frame for a '32 Ford, and installed the floorboards using the hardware in the holes drilled already to fit that lined up with the holes on the car on the assembly line. The older men apparently had no reason to doubt the man, who was known to them as some of his siblings lived nearby before of any of us in their family's home.
Hi and welcome to the channel! Sounds like this gentleman you described had lots of memories to share.
Interesting video. I had never heard of this myth before.
Also you used some excellent pictures in the video.
Good information on Ford's lumber operation, and the charcoal briquettes. Years ago I had read a quick reference to the Kingsford Charcoal connection in a book about the Dearborn Plant. It was extremely brief, and didn't have nearly the info you provided in your side story.
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Love those photographs. Have one of pa sitting on the hood of his Model T back in 1932 with ma standing on one running board and her sister standing on the other. Pretty much my favorite photo.
Hi and welcome to the channel! Sounds like you have a very special photograph and memory!
Nice video, thank you! One big problem of re-using shipping crates would have been this: If you forget to take out just one nail, it will most likely chip the blades on your wood processing machinery. The disruption in production when you have to stop the machine to replace the blades alone would have made this option non-feasible for Ford. Add to this the cost of new blades and all the savings on timber are gone.
Good point! Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Regardless of truth, i think this is a wonderful story of divergent thinking. The holistic approach to continuous improvement is exemplary. Disposing of waste is a cost attributed to one department, and the manufacturing of floorboards another dept. If Ford's approach was to simply squeeze suppliers for lower prices, this type of solution wouldnt be found. Good reminder to spend time framing problems and using divergent then convergent thinking.
Thanks for the video.
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Everything I've ever heard about Henry Ford, it wouldn't surprise me that he did use them or anything else for that matter. Wooden crates were a good source of shorter, straight pieces of dimension lumber that could easily be cut to shape in the mill.
Very possible that after the vehicles were built and the hard times Americans were suffering, it's possible those floorboards met their demise from wood stoves or bon fires in winter.
Enjoyed your video, it does make one think. With Henrys history I wouldn't put it out of my mind. He was a very good businessman and A CHEAP S.O.B.! Next time I see an older Ford, every floorboard will receive extra scrutiny for sure!
@elosogonzalez8739. IT WOULD NOT Be A Wise Move For Ford To Use Shipping Crate Material In The Production Of His NEW CARS. Simply Because Crates Are Made With 2nd Hand Wood With Knots And Other Imperfections In It. Can You Imagine Buying A New Model-T With Knot Holes In The Wheel Spokes For Them To Soon Crack And Break? Or Floor Boards With Poor Quality To Begin Splintering And Sagging Soon After You Bought The Car??? The Sales Would Begin To Plummet In No Time At All. Start Thinking Realistically...
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Fascinating. Thanks.
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Back then, shipping crates had serious structural integrity.
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The business next to mine got a machine from Germany and I asked them for the crate and I took it home and made a garage out of it.
I always heard that Henry Ford specified the type of wood and specification or the crates that the radiator supplier was required to use in the shipping crates. The crates were used in the tops of model A's.
Hi and welcome to the channel! There are lots of stories told about those wood crates.
What I do know, is that Ford was obsessive when it comes to saving costs. If something could be re-used, then he would find a way to use it. He was the ultimate recycler of his day. Hell, he even raised the wages for his factory workers against the suggestion of his finance department, with the firm belief that if the workers were more satisfied in their pay, they would work more efficiently, such as the floor sweepers making sure dropped tools didn't get thrown out.
That said, I believe your assessment is correct. It would just be too expensive/time consuming to try to turn packing crates into floorboards, mostly because packing crates wouldn't generally be made out of furniture grade wood.
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I've been into Model T's since 1965, when I was 12, and have been ever since. I have several books on the T, including my favorite, "Henry's Wonderful Model T", by Floyd Clymer. and not once in the last 60 years have I ever heard about the floorboard issue. I think that Ken Smith is probably correct when he says that Henry used the crates to make more crates, rather than use them for floors. If he used the crates, then he would have to make his crates out of new wood, which doesn't make any sense. Other than the 'who cares about floorboards'' part, this video was informative and interesting.
Hi and welcome to the channel. Thanks for your story and I'm glad you enjoyed it.
An old friend of mine in Hagerstown Maryland owned a couple. One was supposedly unrestored you could clearly see a very faded outline of letters on the floorboards. I'm not that familiar with model T cars but he was. Unfortunately he passed away a few years back at 91 years old we both loved and restored 65 and 66 mustang coupe cars.
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This is a great video! I really enjoyed the history lesson.
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It's no suprize to me that a story about an popular car being repeated.
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My dad restored a 1921 T. The original floorboards did have two ship to addresses at the River Rouge plant so they had to do some wood recycling. I doubt the containers were exact sized for the floorboards based on how the addresses were on the underside of the floor,
Hi and welcome to the channel! Thank you for sharing a little family history!
River Rouge plant still exists.
He didn't use old crates for floorboards. He used new crates for floorboards.
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I’ve got an old book on Kingsford & Iron Mountain , back from the mid 1800’s and early 1900’s , like a World book size book , stories about every old family , with pictures of everybody , almost every old street here , is named after an important person back then , and a Gentleman named Bill Lots , friend of the family , was Henry’s chauffeur for the last 5 years before he retired , he told us 100’s of stories about Henry & his Friends , said he practically lived in the car , said he made $100 a day , since the 50’s , had the Z plan , 2 vehicles a year, at cost to produce , and he bought 2 cars a year , dented them all , always insisted we fix his original parts , he said replacement parts were seconds , Cool Old Guy , ironically , at 88 years old , he was hit by a car and died , told my uncle for decades ? When I die someday , my car is yours ! We thought he was joking , my uncle still has that car , 1990 Mercury Sable , it’s Mint !
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Your welcome , from the Home of the Flivvers
First year of model T 1908 Sept
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You’re video and you’re assumptions are on point you truly have a wonderful mind sir!
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Since he had his own foundrys I am sure that model Ts were melted down to make new model Ts. Wood?? Probably not though the waste wood could become briquettes, and as it was stated they recycled wooden boxes to send stuff back out.
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The story I've always heard said that Ford used BRAND NEW shipping crates, built by specific size and shape orders, to made their car floors, and not USED ones. The reason was, supposedly (according to the story), that box manufacturers charged less than skilful carpenters of that time. Only a disassemble of the boxes was necessary at the plant and the floor boards were ready to install in the cars. Well... I don't believe in this story as well.
Hi and welcome to the channel! I am right there with you and don't believe it either. But I also know many people do and I respect their opinions.
if i remember the history of ford he tried to control the products used in the building of his cars. i seem to remember he had a forest that furnished the wood needed. i forget all the details but i'm pretty sure he had holding all over the world that furnished the products needed. and Kingsford was related to ford through his wife and was most likely responsible for the charcoal, but old henry always took the credit for anything to do with his company, kinda like the ford tractor that looked exactly like the Ferguson tractor.
Hi and welcome to the channel! I mentioned the forest and sawmill he built in the Upper Peninsula in this video. Thanks for your comment.
The jig maker was the most highly skilled worker in the factory
I bet he was!
It’s well known the Henry Ford was extremely frugal,he was an original recycler he reused everything,at why the model T was so inexpensive, I help restore one that still had the name of the supplier on the bottom of the floor boards
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Wonderful infotainment. You R the Henry Ford Whisperer
Hi and welcome to the channel! I don't know that I am any sort of expert but thank.you!
Great video!
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I have, indeed, heard this story, from my father, perhaps thirty-some years ago. I believe that he told it as being the floorboards of the Model A, though. I will say, while I agree that your opinion is well-founded, I can still see it being at least plausible (albeit perhaps not likely), that this story could have been true, if (and only if) Ford really did require that shipping crates were the right size (so that odd pieces didn't need to be put together clumsily to make the whole floor) and built of high-quality wood (rather than the cheap stuff that might normally be expected to be used in crates). As the crates coming in would be new crates each time (in this scenario), although the wood wouldn't be "virgin lumber" as such, it would presumably be indistinguishable from "new wood" once it was cut to the right size and installed. Good quality ash would just look like good quality ash, despite having served for a few weeks or whatever as the sides of a crate, as long as it was properly re-finished (cut and sanded, in the very least, perhaps also planed).
But, since Ford apparently reused crate material to make their own crates, I agree that it seems unlikely. Alas! It makes for a good anecdote.
Thanks for commenting and for providing some good talking points!
Well, here in Denmark Mr Ford established an assembly line in Copenhagen in 1919. In 1924 a much bigger plant was opened in the southern harbour of Copenhagen, covering northern europe, and the baltic countries
All wooden crates were reused, for floorboards, and also sometimes from 25 as running boards for closed models, and covered with linoleum in brown or green.
Not all boxes could be reused, but the workers building small primitive houses in the area were given the wood for the construction, and sometimes we still can see the Ford letters on the wood, when these houses are demolished
Some of the boxes were also sold, and some in my wifes family in Ringkøbing app 350 km from Copenhagen bought some, and they constructed a big chicken shed , which lasted for many years
The model era was fantastic - fam. Toft & Legaard family owners since 1956
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Really enjoyed your video but I wanted to point out a couple things. The Model T started production in 1908, but the first full production year was 1909-1910. I helped a little on a 1908 Touring restoration of an original and complete car, and the floorboards and body staves were made of oak. Far as I know Kingsford charcoal is made from oak as well. Also saying that Henry Ford installed the assembly line kinda makes it sound like some outside source engineered and built it. If that was the case it would have already existed and Henry Ford wouldn't be known for revolutionizing manufacturing.
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Great work here
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Great video. I thought at one point I watched a video about the Rouge that was a period ford promo and that talked about salvaging crate lumber and even the nails.maybe just dreamed it and not real.
Thanks so much! Glad you enjoyed it.
They packed the seat cushions with Spanish moss and it has chiggers in it, people were getting bit, and he said, "dont worry we will get the bugs out"... is the story passed down to me..
Hi and welcome to the channel! I love that story!
Nice video!
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Good idea, remember the challenges they had in those days.
Hi and welcome to the channel. Many challenges back then
Shipping a component from point A to point 👉 B would not damage a wood container, therefore reusing that wood crate would be the best choice in keeping cost down. There needs to be more of this wisdom displayed in use of containers today.
Hi and welcome to the channel! I agree that there needs to be more wisdom in how we handle certain things like recycling today.
Back then crates were solidly made with heavy wood so it was common to use these crates in construction and other applications for wood.
Hi and welcome to the channel! I agree they were better quality then today.
Great question, with multiple plausible answers, because of the sheer volume I go with No.
Hi and welcome to the channel! Right with you!
Oooo I love a great detective story ! Friend , You may be on to something. The letter from Edsel to the customer may be suspicious , but the suppliers manifests are pretty hard to dispute. After watching your video , I believe that a lot of those crates were reduced to Kingsford briquettes.
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Excellent program! Thank you. I will not lose any sleep pondering the possibilities. Let's find out if Subaru's claim to be a "zero waste" car builder includes repurposing shipping materials into new car parts. 😂
Hi Donald and welcome to the channel! Glad you enjoyed it!
If true, he was a shrewd businesses man. Wood scraps a sawdust became Kingsford charcoal. So, used wood for floorboards would not surprise me.
@williamforbes5826 Think About It. Would YOU Buy A NEW CAR With 2nd Hand Crate Wood Used In Manufacturing It. Would You Feel Safe Driving Along With Knot Holes And Cracks In Your Wheel Spokes, Ready To Collapse??? Or Your Floor Would Soon Start To Splinter And Sag??? Once The Word Got Out About Ford 2nd Hand Quality, His Sales Would Be RUINED...
Hi William and thanks as always for your comment!
@@kensmithgallery4432
It 'wood' appear that some people take umbrage with the idea of repurposed wood. They should see the 'used' and recycled parts that we put into '23 new cars! Oh, well. Thanks for the controversial video!
@@williamforbes5826 I knew it would be and as long as people are not nasty, I won't have to press the delete key!
After hurricane IKE, i helped rebuild a coworker's house. Pulling off the old siding revealed boards marked property of U.S.NAVY care of Weaver Shipbuilding, Orange Texas. They were propeller crates for Navy destroyers built for WWII. The 2x4s were real 2x4s. The 1x12s were 1x12. Most of the wood was red oak. Judiceous use of resourses
Hi James and welcome to the channel. Thanks for sharing this story! Sounds like a great use of resources.
As someone who’s spent their entire career in manufacturing and engineering… I have absolutely zero doubt that there were brand new model-t’s leaving the rouge with crate-wood in places, here and there. Probably more due to workers and low-level supervisors covering their butts. That’s usually how those things happen.
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I saw a show and they showed the spec drawings for the crates and they were more detailed than the product in the box.
Hi and welcome to the channel. That would have been interesting to see!
I don’t know about floorboards , but I live in Kingsford , my Grandpa worked for Henry Ford , one of the things he made , was the Wood for the Woodies ,
That's awesome!
We used to celebrate being innovative/efficient and not wasteful.
Glad you enjoyed the video!
We always see these films of the final assembly line but I think one of the body assembling would be fascinating. Oh, and isn’t that “bricQUET?”
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My grandfather was the biggest dealer of "vintage" Ford parts on the east coast for a long time. His name was Richmond Bell. He has since passed at 94 but I'm sure If he was still alive he could answer you with absolute certainty.
His "modern car" was a 64 and a half 289 mustang.
He's my hero and dang do I miss him.
Hi and welcome to the channel! Your grandfather sounds like he was a pretty awesome guy.
@@kensmithgallery4432 He was an American treasure. Ask any old timer on the east coast with a model T,K,A or B. He was the man.