Something that made Matt Smith’s performance so great is that his character didn’t always have to talk. When he was quiet, he’d generate the upmost tension in the room, his gestures were incredible. You can see that the character has a mean and true drive, but always unpredictable
I can't help but see Daemon as somewhat of a dragon in human form, impulsive, instinctual, unapologetically himself. I think thats why he feels closer to the dragons than any other character, he sees them as more than just beasts or weapons, he has the respect for them that comes from a kindred spirit, someone who understands your nature. You can even compare this to other characters in the series who can't see in dragons what Daemon sees. The obvious one is Aemond, a second son, and one who as a child suffered humiliation for his weakness and inadequacy as a Targaryen. He obviously has some respect for Vhagar but he also sees her as a symbol of his strength, the power that he's gained. But even with this power Aemond still won't be king, he still desires that control and in doing so he fails to see that in reality, he has no control over Vhagar. But then on the other side you have Viserys, who in his perpetual weakness can only fear the power of dragons. He's has no real reason to trust in the power of dragons because he's never really had a proper bond with one. I feel like being a dragon rider requires dancing with evil at some points, because dragons are free creatures who don't feel remorse for most of their actions, its also why I don't really have an issue with the whole Rhaenys situation in episode 9.
Thanks! That's really nice to hear. I was thinking to actually dive into it a bit more now that I've read the book, but turns out (even as Martin said) that the show puts a nuance in it which actually isn't explored as thoroughly in the books.
24:44, I disagree. What choices did Rhaenyra have ? Laenor is gay, they tried to have kids and they couldn’t. She needed heirs from somewhere so she got them from Harwin, it was their agreement too . Alicent has not served the crown faithfully by sowing the seeds of conflict and scheming to put her son on the throne behind the kings back .
She could have married whoever she wanted (a rare privilege that most women would kill for during that time) and still chose Laenor just to get Viserys off her back when Daemon got her in trouble. Of all the adulterers she could have chose, she chose Harwin who looks nothing like Laenor, making the political situation even worse, especially for her children. Alicent on the other hand did not plot a damn thing. She’s a pawn and is now doing whatever she can in her control to keep her children alive.
Being gay doesn’t make you infertile. If they added a guy to the bedroom he could probably nut in her with a bit of effort, so, really, i dont think they tried enough. Also, she could at least have choosen someone blonde, or darkskinned, so that her bastards could at least look a little bit like their official father
@@ahmedosman1327 if Alicent’s main motivation was just to keep her children alive then she’s an idiot. You know how the story goes right ? Alicent’s actions of putting her psycho son Aegon on the throne gets all of her children killed. I mean, she knows Daemon would not be happy about them insulting his dead brothers wishes and stealing Rhaenyra’s birthright, Otto once compared Daemon to Maegor the cruel. Wow, what a great idea to make that guy mad and give him many reasons to harm you and your family. Too bad she didn’t use her common sense… Or ya know, maybe she actually felt betrayed and was hateful of Rhaenyra, so she stole her birthright because she was jealous that Rhaenyra had the balls to do whatever she wanted to do and Alicent didn’t because she’s a follower. She won’t come out and say that, she’ll try to justify her actions by acting like she’s just trying to protect her kids ie: hiding under her cloak of righteousness. Jace and Luc are still Rhaenyra’s kids, it’s not like in GOT when Cersei has her bastards as heirs to throne despite not having any Borratheon blood at all. Rhaenyra is the heir not Laenor. Kings have the power to legitimize their bastards anyways, that’s how the blackfyre rebellions happened. It’s more of a problem for who inherits driftmark, but is it really a problem when Laenor who knows they’re bastards, doesn’t care and views them as his sons regardless?? When Lord Corlys knows Lucerys is a bastard and still wants him to inherit driftmark?? Even if Rhaenyra’s kids weren’t bastards, Alicent and Otto would still plot to get Aegon on the throne not to protect Alicent’s children, but to get more power for their house. Alicent is being manipulated but she’s also letting it happen. She’s responsible for all the terrible things that happen to her family.
@@tikimillie they did that, in the books they try to have a threesome with Laenors lover Qarl, but it didn’t work. Rhaenyra definitely tried her hardest to get pregnant by Laenor. She would’ve known more than anyone that it’d would’ve made things a lot easier lol.
The Maester in-universe who chronicled The Dance of the Dragons had this to say: Over the centuries, House Targaryen has produced both great men and monsters. Prince Daemon was both.
True. Still, I think Aemond is an approach I like better to this dichotomy, but I respect the Dragon in both.. but don't forget; "Daemon Targaryen was more snake than dragon"
@@thalmoragent9344 I don't aggre because nobody liked aemond people liked daemon hense him being seen as both hero and villain aemond doesn't get that treatment.
@@thatoneblackdude3333 Well, yeah that's true in the books. Aemond is mostly connected to the Dance, more than Daemon is, and so Aemonds actions during the war is what's more written about. Daemon had more time to add to his reputation, him being over 20 years older, and was around at a different time. Makes you wonder how Aemond would've been viewed had he fought in the Stepstones and interacted with more people like Daemon did
@@cherylbaxter8986 Aemond isn't a psycho, his bitterness is 100% justified. I guarantee you, if Daemon lost an eye in the manner Aemond did, he would've taken intentional vengeance a LOT sooner than 6 years after the fact.
I admit I have since Doctor Who. Simply, he’s a terrific actor and sweet guy who loves children and poetry. I just want the best for him, I don’t want to bed him.
I was looking forward to Daemon because of Matt Smith, but after episode 2, I loathed Daemon and still do. Matt does a wonderful job playing a complete a--hole, being the nice, goofy dude that he is in real life.
Honestly, I love Daemon since I ^ve red the books...but Matt makes me love him even more.He was the wonder and the terror of his age and that's interesting , intense and attractive .
Me: I'm concerned that you're fetshizing a very "bad boy" type (and an actual sadist 😲) but I don't want to lecture. I've lived with two people who were actually somewhat like that and stayed married to and with one if them until the end of his life. It's...an experience. Definitely eventful--but not healthy. Anyway, no more lecture! TV shows are downtime fun. But if your interested in more thoughts on problematic seductive types you might find my new comment in the main thread. The actor is probably a lovely guy and that helps muddy the water with these kinds of characters. Though the real ones do often notoriously seem like charming angels until you know them better. By then it can seem too late to turn away. Though it isn't.
That was good! Shows how big and massive his balls must be . Hahaha.. My favorite scene with him was when he picked up his brother's Crown after helping him to the throne and place it on his head. Such a small split second gesture really showed just how much he truly loved his brother. Plus I read that that wasn't even written into the script, Matt Smith "freestyled" that himself, if I'm remembering correctly. He's such a fantastic actor.
I think what people forget is that Daemon is a combat veteran. I see a man with PTSD. His fear is immediately subsumed in anger. When Rhaenyra talks about dreams, Daemon sees the fall of his family. He sees enemies creeping in. And here is his wife rambling like his useless dead brother. He is Odysseus. He is every combat Veteran who survives war. He is my ex husband. No one seems to touch this. If you've read the Illiad, you would see all the different ways PTSD manifests and what it does to the families of those soldiers.
I kinda got that too, ESPECIALLY with him planning defense during Rhae's labor. Like to me he wasn't a man gleefully planning his war and immune to his wife's pains. This is a soldier planning the defense of a puny island with too few men against the rebels who killed his brother after he ruined their plans, plotted against his family and stole his wife's crown. Granted they didn't kill Vizzy but its not crazy to think do. And his fears about the Greens were RIGHT, Otto was already set to butcher everyone on Dragonstone just to secure Aegon's claim ( oh the irony lol). Daemon 100% saw Otto for who he was.
@@Ashbrash1998 Nice! Also I'm not all that sure bout Vizzy (I like!), from early on there is tension between the maesters re the king's treatment, the first Grandmaester was an idiot - cutting Aemma open without knocking her out? I don't trust the fact that only two maesters ever got to treat Vizzy. Remember Shireen? Stannis wasn't bright. but bright enough to safe his daughter by bringing in everyone with an idea of healing. I'm aware about the fact that cuts from the Throne marked a king as not welcome, but it would have been possible. I'm quite certain the hightowers had their hand in Viserys' necrotic tissue problem (especially since Otto was in a lot of contact with the Citadel) and they certainly gave him drugs that allowed Otto, his lickspittles and Alicent free reign. They might not have killed the king that night, they did, however, kill him over a long period of time. I enjoy your comment and it's implications, sorry the reply got overly long. Pls also - I keep books and shows as seperate things.
I agree I had ptsd and danger kind of becomes you . Its quite a strange thing. When I had ptsd a stranger approached me in a pub and said I had dangerous eyes . He could see it. Interesting analysis
teamdaemon because he is the only one who knows that the hightowers have been the problem from the beginning he told his brother I will take care of anyone but his brother I never trust him and there is the result that is what I like about daemon's character because that he can be good or bad with anyone but the only thing that matters to him is his family and he does everything possible to protect them
Exactly #TeamDaemon I love that he saw through the Hightowers he was smart. Viserys should have listened to him. I wonder if he might have listened if Aemma had still been there. Daemon and Princess Rhaenys are my two favorite characters.
I will say that Rhaenerya tried to have children with Laenor, but their trists did not result in children. She needed to provide heirs for the realm and did the best she could to do that. Yes she should have found someone perhaps of color to do this with, but I don’t know how many blonde Valyrian mixed men are around to sneak & try to make heirs with. Oh and Harwin is handsome and strong (lol literally) & I bet she feels safe with that man by her side. Hard to turn down someone your attracted to and feel safe with.
I don't think we can talk about Daemon's "love" for Rhenera (sorry for spelling, I'm new to the show) without noting that he deliberately sullies her reputation in the hope of reducing his rivals to marry her himself, is trying to marry his neice So That He Can Usurp her power, and seduces a minor as part of his process of grooming her. As I wrestle with the charismatic, sometimes good, but sometimes pretty nakedly evil people in my own life, I need to Understand Them and what makes them tick. Whitewashing the motivations of an exploitor and sadist like Daemon sets us up to fall for these kinds of morally unreliable people in real life. And trust me, that's no fun at all. Or rather it IS fun--until suddenly it REALLY ISN'T.
@Jeavan - get out of whatever relationship you're in. If you can't do it all at once, use everything that happens as a knife that cuts another thread in your emotional ties. I used a loom as a model to get out of a situation like this. It was hard - until it suddenly wasn't. Your comments are a bit worrying to me. There seems to be a lot of pain in your life...
I disagree with you, to me, it seems that you struggle with understanding Daemon and who he really is. I think that you not only don't understand his motives, but you also fail to understand his dynamic with Viserys. If Daemon truly wished to usurp Rhaenyra or Viserys, he could go full Maegor on them - he was a skilled warrior, had a dragon (unlike Viserys), who was also skilled in battle (unlike Syrax). He could even try to put himself up as a candidate for crown prince during the Council of 101 - after all, he had a living dragon, reputation as a skilled knight and more connections and harisma than his older brother. But he didn't - he raised an army for Viserys, because Corlys did the same for Rhaenys. Back then he couldn't be sure that Aemma will fail to give birth to male heir who will survive longer than 1 year. He knew that there was a huge possibility that he won't ever sit on the Iron Throne - and yet, he never tried to usurp Viserys. And when he finally married Rhaenyra, he married a woman grown with children, not inexperienced maiden - and she, unlike her father, wasn't so easy to manipulate. When I see Daemon, I see a warrior, who wanted to have the same relationship with Viserys, as his father Baelon had with his uncle Aemon. He wanted to be important, yes, but most of all he wanted to be respected by his family, yet, he was spurned by his older brother. Viserys ignored Daemon and his counsel, and in thanks of defending his claim to the Iron Throne, he constantly banished him from King's Landing. Daemon was a violent man, yes, but he put his family above everything - he wanted Targaryens to flourish, to bring them back to former glory. His methods, although often very controversial, were actually very effective. And about Rhaenyra's and Daemon's visit to brothel - first of all, I think that you don't understand Westeros and their politics. By the time he returned, Rhaenyra by all acounts wasn't a minor, but a woman fully grown - she was 17/18. the age when most of the ladies already were married and had children. Her own mother, Aemma, was wed and bedded at the age of 12. Rhaenys gave birth to Laena when she was 18. In Westeros age gap between Rhaenyra and Daemon wasn't controversial - after all, her grandmother Daella, married Rodrik Arryn, who was 20 years older. So she wasn't a minor - not in the world of ASOIAF. And you can judge characters and their actions only by laws and traditions of that world, not by our modern standards. He's not a sadist - but he's cruel to enemies - just like any warrior. He lives in a world where weak people are either killed or exploited like Viserys. It's not a universe when kind souls can exist and survive. Back to that faithful trip to brothel - Daemon wanted to sully her reputation in hopes that Viserys will allow them to marry, to save her and her reputation. He knew that Otto had bigger influence on Viserys than anyone from their family. He knew that his older brother thinks the worst of him and will never allow Rhaenyra to marry Daemon. So he did the only thing he thought would work. It wasn't right and it certainly wasn't a good plan, but to be fair, Daemon's plans were rarely well-thought. I think he loved Rhaenyra - as his niece, but then, between one banishment and the other, and war, he started seeing her as a woman (again - normal in their family AND in Westeros, marriages between first cousins or uncle/niece weren't that uncommon after all). But you should remember that Daemon had always problems with expressing his feelings - he grew up in a viper's den, where showing too much emotions were a quick way to lose the game. He was also hurt by many people in his family - Alysanne and Jaehaerys for marriage to Rhea, Viserys for his treatment and for not granting him the annulment. He was angry and hurth, didn't know how to properly communicate - so he often used anger, because it was something he knew and what everyone expected from him. To be fair, HotD did him dirty, especially when they decided to make him a monster, by not including the scenes like where he hugged Baela and Rhaena after Laena's death. He's not a heartless monster you think he is. I think that your problems is projecting your feeling and experiences on him. He's not the abuser you think he is. By all accounts - he's not a good man, not in a traditional meaning of this world, but he never tried to pretend otherwise. You don't understand him as a character - you only see what you want to see.
Listen I wasn’t rocking with Daemon until he defended Ray-Ray when her sons were called bastards. “ He can keep his tongue” 😱😱😱😱😱Then he sings to the dragon😍😍😍😍😍😍.
I think the reason we love Daemon is because he's both good and bad and he's upfront and honest about it he truly is a grey character society always gets caught up in good versus evil light versus dark we never see one person truly embrace both so when Daemon does it we are drawn to him I personally like this Ive always lived this way myself you need to live this way if you want balance in your life
I think that's it, on the beach scene with him and Rhaenyra walking when he tells her "if you're accusing me of depravity, you're going to be more specific". He owns up to the fucked up shit he's done and people admire honesty
That's so completely wrong and fucking stupid. If you're choosing to be dark 50% of the time, you're choosing to be horrible 50% of the time on purpose. That's not right, that's morally wrong and insane. You have a lot of room to grow. You should change and be a better person than whatever this is.
Daemon doesn’t balance good and evil, he’s an evil guy who very occasionally does some mildly good shit for certain members of his family in between bouts of extreme violence and sexual abuse. Please don’t live this way.
@@Borgcow You're wrong there. Daemon has clearly done good things, too. He ended the war in the Stepstones and he also saved many people from rape, murder, and robbery in King's Landing, even if his methods were occationally gruesome. He has more good in him than you think.
@@juicypineapple6995 no, you’re just giving him far too much credit. He actually doesn’t save anyone, what he does is mutilates and murders a bunch of accused criminals without a trial, and as this guy even says in this video, he does it for political reasons, not out of a sense of justice. Then he agrees to fight in the Stepstones out of ambition and personal glory, with a pinch of boredom and irritation with his brother thrown in. That’s literally how Corlys convinced him to join with the whole “second sons” speech. Again, I’m not saying he doesn’t do good things, but there’s not one good thing he does that he doesn’t stand to benefit from, whether in his mind or in reality. And those things certainly don’t outweigh the outright bad stuff enough to make him heroic or even gray
@@Borgcow what's really meant by neutral is the fact that you don't quite know who's side they are. Daemon sort of just does his own thing and Tyrion sort of does the same. This is more emphasized in the books though. Tyrion for example is a Lannister but he still shows Stark sympathies and seems to fight for his family more out of desire for his own survival then any genuine loyalty to them. Daemon similarly just does his own thing as well especially in the beginning of the show. Neither would exactly be considered "good" Daemon chokes Raenyra in the finale and sleeps around a fair bit and Tyrion strangles Shae (in a much more brutal way in the books). At the same time though they kind of do some "good" things as well.
@@bradleymarshall5489 hmm I guess I buy that for show Tyrion, but book Tyrion isnt neutral in any sense of the word. He’s squarely on his family’s side until he finds out Tysha was true after all, and that Tywin was fucking Shea, so he caps his ass. He understandably doesn’t know what the fuck to do for a bit, but comes pretty quickly to Team Fuck the Other Lannisters, mostly cuz that will help him get what he wants. He’s a self-motivated chaos maker for certain, and getting darker and darker (ordering the singer to be cooked in a stew, raping that slave, wanting to rape his sister) all the time
He will end up being the hero of the show, he has an heroical spirit , althought yes he is brutal, violent but he protects his family, now he will have an important mision: To destroy the greens, specially we know who
Spoiler He never manages to protect anyone except his mistress. He does a pretty glorious murder-suicide with his doppelganger, but also orchestrates a brutal murder of a little child which drives its mother to suicide as well.
@@ajae... I already know that people who read the books think they are superior telling how things will end but they are not better than the people who didnt read the book and Daemon will always be a hero to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@@ajae...Yeah... he definitely totally didn't avenge Lucerys like he promised nor aid Rhaenyra in taking King's Landing and he totally absolutely didn't save Nettles from being tortured/slaughtered by Rhaenyra and he totally did not kill one of the top 2 joint assets of the Greens in Aemond & Vhagar.....
Here’s the viewpoint of a unbiased friend about Daemon. Although Vicerys was his fav character this season, what he loves about Daemon is his unpredictability. He knows when Daemon enters any scene, you don’t know what he’ll do and it’s great fun. On the other hand it feels like what he does is still within his character driven by the prime motivations of family that Matt Smith has outlined. Prrsonally, I’m biased. He’s been my fav actor since Doctor, one of the few I like. I agree totally about the missing context and his neglect of his daughters. If he loves family, he doesn’t love his children? Makes no sense to me. But tbf, they may have just run out of time, and this has to be one of the hardest characters to write. I think your point about his authenticity is one of the major ones. People hate hypocrites. Nice job on this
There's a scene that got cut from the show Where they show Daemon comforting and showing love to his daughters after his wife died in childbirth. I think the show runners should have left that scene so that we could see the fathering side of Daemon that must have loved his girls in some way at least.
@@catherineervin2630 I know I saw it. They’re claiming time constraints, and I’m sure that’s part of it. But it’s obvious they’re doing some of it purposefully. I kept waiting for the rest of the season for Daemon to talk to his daughters. Not one word passed between them. I think there were some smiles passed around the dinner table in episode 8; but we didn’t get to see them. In 10, as Daemon is rattling off the names of the unclaimed dragons, the camera pans to Raeyna, but still, no conversation. I’m hoping they give those girls more in Season 2. They had to cut out so many character moments. They got very little screen time and dialogue
He value his blood so much. Targaryen glory is what he fight for. I kinda think he likes Rhaenyra's bstrds bcs they're all dragon riders. I have hypothesis Targaryen only value the children from their true love. Bcs it happened on Aegon I to Rhaenys, Viserys to Aemma, and Aegon the Unworthy to Princess Daena too. Viserys only loves Aemma for his whole life. That's why there's difference between Aemma's and Alicent's children for him. Daemon favor Baela bcs she's a dragon rider but IF he favor both his sons more than his daughters despite of his youngest son's egg never hatched just like Rhaena, then it must be true. Bcs it seems to me he loves Rhaenyra more than Laena
@@greenforce68 Daemon “loves Rhaenyra more than Laena,” really? Is that why he chokes her? No, dude is a straight up misogynist who never really loved anyone but himself and his brother. It makes way more sense to the personality they’ve established (wildly inconsistent though it is) that he’s a shit dad to his daughters and only gives any scrap of attention to the dragon riding one
@@Borgcow I thought it was clear, he chokes her bcs he was mad that Rhaenyra doesn't share the same rage as he was. At that moment he lost a baby, a brother, and his wife's crown. Plus, Viserys never considered him as his heir. Imagine not being considered by someone you love in a whole life. Viserys was like a father to him. You see how he behave when he's mad. When Viserys send him away to the Vale on EP1, he went straight up to Vis before the Kingsguard stopped him. You can see Vis was shaken. But on the next episode when Corlys mock Vis, Daemon threaten him. EP3 also shows Daemon response when Vis undermines him. He beats up the messenger. He could love them and still attempt to hurt them bcs that's how he is. That's how unpredictable he is. Rhae knew what she brought into her table when she claim him. Targaryen are chaotic
The TV show turned Daemon into a villain. Even one of the female writers posted a hate filled rant on Twitter about him, and fans that like him (The choking scene is absolutely stupid), all while making excuses for The Greens, and demonizing The Blacks.
Huh interesting. Do you really think so. I'd say the choking scene might be inconsistent with his show character thus far; but actually MORE consistent with his book character. The book leaves things pretty vague I'd say, which leaves a lot of things open to not only rewriting (the book is a historical account which they can justifiably edit retrospectively) but pure elaboration. How we as an audience FEEL about those rewrites and elaborations is definitely an interesting area of conversation. I for one think they should have left out the choking scene and done something a bit more morally grey. There are few moments which paint Daemon most definitively as villainous and scheming; the foremost in my mind would probably be that escapade of taking Rhaenyra to the show/brothel, and then this choking scene. The former makes his entire arc seem much more calculated and less earnest. The latter makes him seem downright unbalanced and pscychopathic. I think they could have tweaked just a FEW things in the King's Landing episode, and a FEW things in the choking scene, and made it seem a bit more nuanced/conflicted. As is, though, I think both of those fit with book Daemon actually BETTER than show Daemon. The only thing I really remember which recommends Daemon as a possible hero/antihero/relatable protagonist in the book is his ultimate death above the God's Eye. That really cements him as someone you can get behind, someone who gave himself for something other (whether you count it love, the realm, the histories, or the sheer bloody joy of combat). I do think the writers were startled by his popularity, so they probably intended something a bit more villainous. I'd say the Green children, especially Aegon, are viewed a bit more negatively because of Alicent, and because we didn't really see them grow up in the same way we saw Rhaenyra grow up. If you look at it objectively though, I think there are many reasons to back the Greens, or else to despise Rhaenyra in much the same way we are inclined to despise Aegon (or to fear Aemond). Granted, she seems much more human than Aegon in some ways. He was an absolute creep and tyrant growing up. But she's actively choosing arguably more destructive things, probably due to her general bitterness, unresolved daddy issues, and the strength of her love for her children.
apparently there was a director who cut out a bunch of scenes with daemon showing compassion and his soft side hopefully that director won’t be working on season 2, because she’d just take out a fuck ton of daemon scenes
I think its simple really. The only one allowed to pick on my brother is me. And if you try to pick on him I'm gonna make you pay. He wanted to be not the Kings hand but the Kings FIST. He wanted to be his brothers strength, a strength no one could test. If he is weak that makes his brother and their dynasty weak. The Vipers wriggle their way into the den.
His aura was bold and full of excellence. Smart in what he did in the series. Although it is scripted, he falls in love, proof of his effective character. In the real kingdom, HIS character is really what is needed to have a really abundant kingdom with order. That's why I really like him among all the kings. Daemon Targaryen (Matt Smith) made a big impact in the movie. Kudos!😘💛🫰💕✌️I'm from the Philippines 😘 #Gamesofthrones more power po from the Philippines 😘🌷✌️🧡💚💚💚💚🙏🏼🛐😘😇🫶 praying for your more success po 😘
Daemon isn't George's favorite Targaryen for no reason.. Daemon is the pinnacle of a "grey" character, acting both noble and ignoble, to get the job done. Much like Bloodraven (another very popular and mysterious Targaryen/Blackwood) later on, for Daemon, the ends justify the means. The thing is, there's shades of grey; Roose Bolton is another grey character, but we mostly find him honorless and creepy. Daemon's "grey" is courageous; he doesn't stray from a fight, he's passionate and hot-blooded, so many things that (especially young) women find irresistible, in spite of the danger of associating with him. He's the "bad boy" every girl wants, and every women knows is bad for her, but she wants him anyway.
He's a good guy and he loves Rhaenyra, he just doesn't do things in a good way, and I love that. Sometimes harsh decisions have to be made. Also, butchering rapists is 100% called for.
That time Rhaenys announced Vicerys’ death to me says a lot about Daemon and Rhaenyra which no one has ever pointed out. Rhaenyra reacting more on the fact that Aegon was crowned king while Daemon asked “how did my brother die?” This says a lot about these two characters despite the fact that Daemon is vilified far more than the hypocrite Rhaenyra who used him, begged him to marry her for her own benefit, while he was content with his life in Pentos - far away and freed from all the “political scheming, the endless shifting of loyalties and succession”. That episode of Daemon in Pentos wanting to stay away from the throne world made me love him even more but was somehow overlooked by many haters of this fascinating character
Daemon Targaryen is the best character of House of the Dragon (to me). Matt Smith plays the character perfectly. He is very mecurial. He has tension- you never know if he will be "happy" , "sad", or "in a killer mood". He is very focused on whatever he is doing. He is definitely a person who when he walks in a room, every body stands at attention. When he is happy, everybody is happy. When he is sad, every body is sad and you don't know what he will do next. Did you see when he killed the Crab King???? Then he just drags his body out like he is just strolling! What you know is if Daemon is sad, go hide!!! If Daemon is in a "killer mood" too late to hide. You really need to hide NOW. He still gives you an opportunity. I loved when Aemond Valeryen (brother to Corlyss Valeryen) said, "She is a whore! And he children are BASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSTAAAAAAAAAARDS!" That fool know he was gonna die!!! And Daemon answered the request- He 's like "He can keep his tongue!!!!" Did you see the face on his wanna be just like him nephew- Aemond, one eye? He wants to be just like his Uncle Daemon. Even his daughter, Baela, says "Sometimes I hate him!" I love Daemon! I would definitely try to stay on his good side. Yeah, Daemon Targaryen is the best character.
6:35 to 7:55 REALLY creative cross cutting of images from GOT and even The Lord of the rings. A beautiful passage about when the heroic days become mere legend. I was dubious about celebrating Daemon too much, but setting that aside this is a very creatively and well made video. And the narration doesn't sound like a chipmuck on Meth! Meaning it's not too fast. It might be interesting if this channel and the slightly but not excessively female oriented cha Hills Alive did a discussion and or civil debate video...
It's amazing how Daemon's reception to other characters in the show is exactly the same as real life fans. "To some he was a hero, to others the blackest of villains."
Daemon is the archetype of a tragic hero, like Macbeath. The paradigm of the tragic hero emerged in Ancient Greece, and is described by Aristotle in his "Poetics" which outlines the origins and factors involved in Greek Tragedy. The tragic hero is a "great soul," but is fatally flawed. He or she, though, is always utterly compelling. Fortunately, in this series the tragic hero, Daemon, is portrayed by a fine actor.
Daemon is a compelling and complex villain (despite being written wildly inconsistently from episode to episode) but he’s not some kind of antihero. Not on the show, anyway. In fact I don’t think we EVER see him do anything “good” that can’t be attributed to self-motivated reasoning. Against that we have to weigh all of the unforgivable shit he does throughout the season, which he never shows the slightest remorse for. Add it all up and he’s definitely an evil character overall and not “grey” as so many people insist.
I dont knoow if you remember but actually Rhaenyra said that she tried to make babies with Leonor so nope its not her fault...then its just as much Leonors fault .... fact is that Rhaenyra needed heirs anyway... youy can say that why couldnt she fall in love with someone black but love doesnt work like that ;D at least in season Rhaenyra has done nothing wrong if it comes to that
She doesn't get to choose 'love' in her position. She needs heirs, they had to at least be believably her and Laenor's kids so that the question of bastards wouldn't be a major issue. Their true father should have been some dragonseed with silver hair or someone darker skinned like Laenor in the show
I like that you do actually criticise Rhaenyra. The fact is, she wanted to be Queen but didn't want to accept the responsibilities of being Queen. Was it unfair to her? Yes. The expectation of a monarch to produce heirs is far more taxing on the woman than the man. And it's totally understandable that she felt insulted by people constantly trying to undermine her claim just because she was a woman. And yes, while often neither a male or female ruler gets to marry for love, it's common for people to ignore the male ruler sleeping with whoever he wants on the side, whereas noble women can be killed for that. That is horrifically unfair and Rhaenyra has a right to be pissed off. BUT. Here's what matters more. Rhaenyra knew her claim was going to be contested, and not just with insults at court. As soon as Viserys had sons, she knew this was more serious. At that point, choosing to sire not one, not two but THREE bastards was INCREDIBLY irresponsible. Yes I get no one should have the right to tell a woman whose children she gets to have, but as unfair as it is, Rhaenyra KNEW this alone could cause a civil war, endangering her children, herself, her husband, AND the boys' true father, not to mention hundreds or thousands of soldiers who would be sent to fight a preventable war. She should have taken Moon Tea and prevented the pregnancies. But she was so angry at her father from the last time she got caught and how he had sent her Moon Tea that she had the children to spite everyone. Yes she was mistreated but her way of handling it literally gets people killed. That is worse and honestly downright cruel, if not intentionally cruel. Rhaenyra should have prevented pregnancies from Harwyn Strong, and then, given Laenor was unable to get Rhaenyra pregnant, she should have seceded the throne. Not because she was a woman, but because she had no heirs, and therefore was inviting a another succession crisis. She should have spoken with her father, had HIM renounce his former declaration, and making display in court to try to persuade the nobles that this was Rhaenyra's idea. It would have won her a great deal of popularity, for deliberately sacrificing her claim to the throne for the stability of the realm, as opposed to her just having it taken away and being seen as another royal brat wanting the pointy chair. And that credibility would help secure the legitimacy of whoever they chose to succeed Viserys. And now you might be wondering, wouldn't this then cause Aegon to become king? When his favourite pastimes are excessive drinking and sexual assault? That's a terrible idea. And Yes, it is a terrible idea. But Aegon was a relatively contained problem before Otto and Alicent put a crown on his head. There is a MUCH better candidate. Aemond. And keep in mind in this timeline, Aemond still failed to bond with the egg they placed in his cradle, and therefore was still just as brutally bullied by Aegon for not having a dragon. Which means he still claims Vhagar. So they don't have to worry about the second son betraying the crowned Aegon because he has a bigger dragon and thinks he can get away with it. Instead, it's Aegon who would be scared to challenge Aemond. Not only that, but Aegon didn't even WANT the throne until they put him on it. He straight up told Aemond that he'd let him have it. So we have the smarter, more educated, more respected and significantly more moral candidate chosen as heir, and to boot he has the biggest dragon. He'd be seen as the strongest Targaryen heir in generations. Now, there are some discontented parties. While this would bring peace between Rheanyra and the Hightowers, as either Aegon of Aemond on the throne is good for Otto, there's still Corlys and Daemon to worry about. This would be not one, but two marriage pacts with the Velaryons that Viserys has tossed out. And the first time around Corlys was so pissed off that he went off to fight a war independently of the Crown, declaring without words that ultimately he was the actual protector of Westeros. It was a HUGE challenge to Viserys authority and given Corlys invited Daemon, it was obvious Corlys was making it clear that if it came to it, he'd back Daemon should Daemon stage a coup. How do you deal with this? Well after Laena's death, Daemon left one of his daughters at Driftmark to be fostered by the Velaryons, only taking one to Dragonstone with Rhaenyra. While I don't think Daemon goes to Dragonstone with her in this scenario, I do think it's likely he'd leave a daughter at Driftmark. Probably both to be honest. Because keep in mind in this version, Rhaenyra has no incentive to marry Daemon. There was no fight after Aemond claimed Vhagar. She has no sons that she worries Otto will one day assassinate. Jayce, Luke and Joffrey don't exist. And again we're pretending in this version that Rhaenyra is making sacrifices to ensure stability, so even though I expect she sleeps with Daemon, she doesn't marry him. That means there's no comfortable family life awaiting Daemon on Dragonstone to raise one of his daughters. So honestly I think he'd leave them both on Driftmark, not just one. But one is all you need. Marry one of Daemon's daughters to Aemond. Again, he's left at least one, probably both on Driftmark in this scenario, so if Viserys and Rhaenyra arrange the marriage with Corlys and Rhaenys and cut out Daemon, he's not going to be able to prevent the wedding. And again, in this scenario Jayce and Luke don't exist. Corlys has no marital link to the throne like he wanted. Obviously he knew the bastards weren't his real grandsons, but for him the name Velaryon was enough. And he and Rhaenys are a lot less pissed off, because staging Laenor's death was only prompted by the fight between Rhaenyra and Alicent's sons on Driftmark, and Aemond taking Vhagar. Rhaenyra and Daemon knew a fight was coming and married to strengthen their position. So in this version, Laenor's still around, and therefore Corlys and Rhaenys are more amenable, and Corlys ultimately gets most of what he wanted. That leaves the only issue to be Daemon. And honestly Daemon is such a wildcard I really don't know what he does in this scenario. He's good at sewing chaos and a big part of what seemed to convince him to give up pursuing the throne the first time around was that Rhaenyra had her own heirs already in addition to Viserys' sons. Who no longer had a good claim and so his only chance at power was to back another party. But in this version, he knows his only real obstacle is Aemond. Aemond is the linchpin that makes the entire plan work. Aegon could not be trusted to not attack Rhaenyra if crowned. Aemond (who in this version has no grudge against Rhaenyra given he has both of his eyes) could be relied upon to keep his word. And with Rhaenyra on team Green in this scenario Otto has no reason to assassinate her. His ambitions are directly aided by her presence. So the only play Daemon has is to kill Aemond. Given Aemond is a reknowned fighter and Otto would take Aemond's security seriously (even if just to ensure Aegon doesn't do something stupid), a knife in the dark ain't gonna work. Although Daemon's knowledge of the hidden tunnels in the Red Keep would cause him to get closer than most. He doesn't really have an agent close enough to Aemond to poison him, and he has too little power to ensure such an agent wouldn't just go to Otto immediately for a payout. A duel in open court isn't going to work because even IF Daemon can beat Aemond, Aegon's backup number 1 and in the books Daeron is backup number two. And Corlys only has reason to be pissed at Daemon if Aemond dies, rendering his marriage void. Honestly, I think Daemon's only play that has a chance of working is kind of similar to how their final confrontation goes in Fire and Blood. The only way to take out Aemond and actually make enough of an impression to intimidate Aegon and Daeron into backing off is to find Aemond mid flight and attempt a surprise attack with Caraxes. It's way riskier, but the only option that would make the political dent he needs. Plus we saw in the Stepstones the level of danger Daemon will put himself through just to make a point. Daemon had about an 80% chance of dying in the ploy that won him the war in the Stepstones, and he did that just so they could win before Viserys sent reinforcements. Even if he died in the battle Daemon wanted all to remember this was HIS victory. And had the battle been lost, well Daemon would be too dead to care. I think he'd accepted that already. If he's bold enough to do that, he's bold enough to challenge Vhagar. And given Fire and we know that means both dragons and both riders go down. In the show this is a pretty terrible situation for Rhaenyra, with Aegon now first in line given she seceded and has no heirs. But if we're going off the books, this still works fine, since Daeron is an easy backup. The issue down the line here is by this point, Aegon might have gone from not really caring about getting the throne to being pretty insulted at being passed over twice. Given he offered to sail away from King's Landing in the show when he offered the crown to Aemond, I think if Daeron is too protected he flies across the Narrow Sea living as a prince in exile similar to Daemon once upon a time.
@wafflingmean4477 First, I loved your synopsis of an alternate universe for HOTD. I agree with everything you wrote of what could possibly happen. But, I play advocate- If it happened the way you say there would be no conflict and no war and no HOTD. But, I did enjoy reading your synopsis. I totally agree- Rhaenyra wanted to be queen, but she did not want the responsibilities of being a queen. As her cousin, Princess Rhaenys said, "The men would rather see the realm burn than a woman sitting on the throne." So, Rhaenyra was dealing with misogyny and sexism. Thanks for sharing.
I agree partly, The only issue I have with this statement, if you can even call it an issue, more like A small friendly Disagreement lol, is that Dameon Was a favorite character long before there was ever a show or actor to portray him. He is just a Testament to George RR Martin's great skill as a writer to develop compelling characters.
I do believe Matt Smith is brilliantly cast as Deamon. I think I can relate to him because as much as I TRY to be a "good person", and I mostly succeed @ it- I am well aware of being flawed, and am well aware of the "bad deeds" I have committed in my past. (Mind you no stealing of virginity, murder, or treason). So we can see ourselves in Daemon. Ps: Leonor DID try to do his duty EVEN in the show the make sure to establish that. Also:FYI I am mixed race like "Leanor" and married to a fully Caucasian man and my children are all "white in skin tone". What gives Rhynara away in this story is the lack of Valarian Silver-White hair, not skin tone. Granted- Deamon's kids with Laena are pretty dark- I believe that's why they cast Leanor and Laena slightly different in "melanin" level. Leanor was always pretty fair like myself, so his children being white is not crazy. It's all about the hair. Really. ( And yes I read the books too). I LOVE the choices the made with the show 99.5%
Fully agree, the skin color is a non-issue with regards to the paternity of her kids (at least by itself) although I do think the scene with Vaemond denouncing them at court is even better with this element, him juxtaposed against Rhae’s sons so starkly
@alextrudelle True- but Vamond didn't marry a Caucasian Targaryen like his brother* (in the show*) did. I mean let's take real life mixed race Meghan M and Prince Harry- OF COURSE their child was going to be white as the child IS mostly Caucasian. The "one drop rule" doesn't apply anymore. HOWEVER thank you for seeing my point. Honestly the whole issue is hair color more than anything else. Both Rhynara and Leanor have the exact same hair color, as do both of Leanor's parents. So the chances of very light skinned man and a white woman having white appearing kids is not a shock at all- its the brown hair that takes a lot of explaining. Vamond was a power hungry prick. Leanor TRIED to get Rhynara pregnant, and EITHER way he loved those 3 boys as his own. Jon Snows dark hair can be explained away by the Stark genes; while Rhynara's children with "Leanor" (Harwin) are shown in the show ( books are different) to have parents and grandparents on both sides of the three boys to have a certain hair color wind up with brown hair.
@@museysmoderndreadfulsoh for sure, I just meant that scene was even more dramatic and got it’s point across visually as well as thru dialogue with Vaemond being so utterly different from Luke, hair color, skin color, facial features, everything. He didn’t marry and have kids with a white woman, no, but he does look like his brother (as much as TV allows for, anyway) who did, and who Luke is supposed to share like 25% of his genes with. Also good point about Jon Snow, I believe that actually brings up a potential mistake with the adaptation. In the book we don’t know Alicent’s hair color, but in the show she’s brunette and yet all her kids are platinum blonde who look like Targaryens and nothing like her or Otto. If we apply the same reasoning to them, it seems like one of Alicent’s kids should have had brown hair, or at least darker blond hair. All of Rhae’s kids came out that way, yet none of Al’s do, despite them all having the same proportion of Targaryen and “Caucasian” Westerosi genes. Not statistically impossible or anything, but it seems highly unlikely given we’re talking about like 7 different people. Furthermore it’s already established that Targaryen hair (and by extension their other unique traits) are recessive traits, or else they wouldn’t need to inbreed to keep them going
@alextrudelle I dig what you're laying down. And I'm glad I'm finally talking to someone that knows that it's pretty unlikely that skintone would be the give away when a mixed race person marries/has kids with a fully Caucasian person. I mean- can you imagine ppl wondering if Zendaya got pregnant with Tom Holland in the future if their kids would be the exact same skin tone as her? People just have to realize, just like when painting, if you add brown and white you get tan, when you add tan and white you're eventually get such a light tan that it may as well be a shade of white. (But they'd probablytan very easily while riding their Dragons in the Summer). I like the idea one of Allicent's kids having maybe a darker blonde "golden blonde instead of silver blonde) hair, or brown hair with blonde streaks...but I believe that's supposed to show up more often when the Blackfyres come along.
@@museysmoderndreadfuls oh man another good point, even the dragon riding Targs are suuuuper pale. Daemon in particular fought several years from his dragon on a bunch of tiny islands in the ocean and is straight up Elmer’s glue white. If I’m honeypotting, maybe their fire resistance applies to sunbeams? 😅
Why does everyone keep trying to overlook the fact that Rhaenyra didn’t just have bastards willy nilly? The only reason she probably even looked at Harwin to father her kids was because Laenor couldn’t perform the act and she was desperate for children. The court was already divided and he was probably the only one she could trust to have a NECESSARY affair with! It’s wasn’t just her lust that made her have all her bastards. IT WAS NECESSITY. Viserys literally told her when she was younger that she needed to secure her own line of succession and have heirs. There was always going to be a civil war regardless of whether or not her kids were legitimate. Otto was NOT going down without a fight. IT WAS INEVITABLE! It’s worrisome to me that in all these video essays barely anyone touch’s on these points.
Because this a world of grey characters. And one of the greyest of them all is Damon. He’s a lot like a mixture of Tyrion and Jamie. They are both grey characters. George’s fav Targaryen is Damon and in a Song of Ice and Fire is Tyrion. They are complex.
This is GRRM characters, who are you gonna be rooting for here? Otto? moral shit doesn't exist here. Jon Snow is probably the only morally good character in this universe lmao
You do realize that he groomed Rhaenyra, right? He didn't fall in love with her, he probably wanted to marry her ever since he realized that she wouldn’t have brothers. I don't think praising his honesty is the best read.
Yeah and I can totally see why. It is curious to me that in the book itself, a lot of nuance is left unarticulated and actually some of it is outright countered (stating clearly who meant to kill whom, what they intended to happen, etc). I'd be curious to see inside Martin's head (or notebooks) and understand the full scope of certain characters. There's this category of players who have massive roles in his world but whose actual personal lives have been left relatively unexplored--characters like Daemon, Hightower, Varys, Cregan Stark, even Lucerys before his death, many of the Greyjoys, and so on. All of them are ripe for deep storytelling. Obviously this is due to the intentional narrative style of the book. In the show I guess we'll get to explore a lot further; but I'd be curious to see how much Martin had actually envisioned beforehand.
Rhaenyra no traiciono a alicent si lo pones así ella fue la primera en aser lo en casarse con viserys la diferencia es q alicent envidia a rhaenyra q ella no sigue las reglas y ella si ese es todo el problema si ella se enoja por eso con rhaenyra por q no se enoja con otto q fue quien la metió en todo eso mandándola donde viserys y luego quiere poner a aegon q sea rey sabiendo q el no sería un buen rey pero por eso ningun personaje es bueno o malo todos son grises
The problem with attraction to power and competence is that incompetent narcissists are so could at faking both. Or the selective competence of the famous. My late husband still has admirers all over the globe because of the books he wrote and speeches he gave, but his love life and family life was a series of dysfunctional failures covered over with bravado. Often the people who act out the part of the powerful, competent hero or guru are the most dysfunctional behind closed doors.
If you are a woman this makes sense. Women seem to be more capable of seeing Daemon for what he is. Maybe it's his murder, manipulation, abuse, and negligence of the women and girls in his life that helps. Perhaps that helps in be seen as a hero, too. "He can control his wimmins and mAke ThEm aCcouTabLe". He hasn't actually done anything particularly heroic on the show, but he's still getting the "cool, badass" title. He went to fight a war because he was sulking. People attribute winning that war to him forgetting that it was a teenager who came up with the winning plan that needed a psychotic asshole that no one cared about dying to make it work. Old man Corlyss fought harder in that battle. I get why he's loved, but it's so fucking gross.
WTH? You were talking about the blonde guy's and switched over to The Lord of The Rings? Oh well, I always liked JRR Tolkien better than George RR Martin
@ Jesse Tate - This is very well done. Pleasant to listen to, while being intricate enough to keep the brain busy. Do you have material of your own available to readers somewhere?
Sorry about the delayed response. I'm trying to get on the train and do this properly, be punctual and consistent, and so on. So far it's tough 😅 I'm currently outlining a sci-fi novel, and am about 80K into my first fantasy novel with a lot of rewriting still ahead. Sadly I have nothing else published under my own name (I've been ghostwriting for about 7 years but all that work is protected by NDA).
@@JesseTate No need to apologize, though it's always a pleasure to hear from a content creator, or others who share interests and comments, for that matter. I'm glad to hear you're writing - it doesn't matter that it's published under another name, it means you had the chance to gather experience! Though I hope you'll either share excerpts of your novels here or inform us where we can see your work when the time is right. I have one request, though - once you get to the serious stage of writing, please pick a priority, work on one novel and finish it. Should you ever need a beta reader or even an alpha reader, I'm more than willing. For now, thank you for getting back to my comment and know that I truly hope to see you succeed!
6:25 to 7:10 Okay, this is more than naive bad boy worship, this idea of the primal and the wild versus the corrupted and overly softened is philosophically interesting. It's probably a boring solution but just as psychologists say that the father style of parenting, which involves challenging them and giving them a little push out into the world, and the mother style of parenting, which is protective and nurturing, are really Both needed, in equal measure, maybe the best ruler is neither a sadistic adventurer or a soft and spoiled person but someone in that often healthier place between extremes. "All things in moderation" is hardly a sexy medsage but it's often true. Susan Sontag wrote about reliable thinkers who were like husbands versus adventurous thinkers who were like lovers; clearly she preferred the later. My problem with the latter is that at the end of the day their ideas are exciting but inapplicable and sometimes dangerous, like the wild idea of Nietzche being used, with his sisters full support, to legitimize Hitler and the Nazis. Wheras an author like...maybe Camus is more likely to give you less Outrageous ideas but ideas you can actually use to improve your life. Maybe?
Something that made Matt Smith’s performance so great is that his character didn’t always have to talk. When he was quiet, he’d generate the upmost tension in the room, his gestures were incredible. You can see that the character has a mean and true drive, but always unpredictable
I can't help but see Daemon as somewhat of a dragon in human form, impulsive, instinctual, unapologetically himself. I think thats why he feels closer to the dragons than any other character, he sees them as more than just beasts or weapons, he has the respect for them that comes from a kindred spirit, someone who understands your nature. You can even compare this to other characters in the series who can't see in dragons what Daemon sees. The obvious one is Aemond, a second son, and one who as a child suffered humiliation for his weakness and inadequacy as a Targaryen. He obviously has some respect for Vhagar but he also sees her as a symbol of his strength, the power that he's gained. But even with this power Aemond still won't be king, he still desires that control and in doing so he fails to see that in reality, he has no control over Vhagar. But then on the other side you have Viserys, who in his perpetual weakness can only fear the power of dragons. He's has no real reason to trust in the power of dragons because he's never really had a proper bond with one. I feel like being a dragon rider requires dancing with evil at some points, because dragons are free creatures who don't feel remorse for most of their actions, its also why I don't really have an issue with the whole Rhaenys situation in episode 9.
What a brilliant video! I love the nuance and empathy you brought to your analysis - really compelling!
Thanks! That's really nice to hear. I was thinking to actually dive into it a bit more now that I've read the book, but turns out (even as Martin said) that the show puts a nuance in it which actually isn't explored as thoroughly in the books.
Great video!
because hes the guy from morbius
Sheep falling for the wolf!
24:44, I disagree. What choices did Rhaenyra have ? Laenor is gay, they tried to have kids and they couldn’t. She needed heirs from somewhere so she got them from Harwin, it was their agreement too . Alicent has not served the crown faithfully by sowing the seeds of conflict and scheming to put her son on the throne behind the kings back .
She could have married whoever she wanted (a rare privilege that most women would kill for during that time) and still chose Laenor just to get Viserys off her back when Daemon got her in trouble. Of all the adulterers she could have chose, she chose Harwin who looks nothing like Laenor, making the political situation even worse, especially for her children. Alicent on the other hand did not plot a damn thing. She’s a pawn and is now doing whatever she can in her control to keep her children alive.
Being gay doesn’t make you infertile.
If they added a guy to the bedroom he could probably nut in her with a bit of effort, so, really, i dont think they tried enough. Also, she could at least have choosen someone blonde, or darkskinned, so that her bastards could at least look a little bit like their official father
@@ahmedosman1327 if Alicent’s main motivation was just to keep her children alive then she’s an idiot. You know how the story goes right ? Alicent’s actions of putting her psycho son Aegon on the throne gets all of her children killed.
I mean, she knows Daemon would not be happy about them insulting his dead brothers wishes and stealing Rhaenyra’s birthright, Otto once compared Daemon to Maegor the cruel. Wow, what a great idea to make that guy mad and give him many reasons to harm you and your family. Too bad she didn’t use her common sense…
Or ya know, maybe she actually felt betrayed and was hateful of Rhaenyra, so she stole her birthright because she was jealous that Rhaenyra had the balls to do whatever she wanted to do and Alicent didn’t because she’s a follower. She won’t come out and say that, she’ll try to justify her actions by acting like she’s just trying to protect her kids ie: hiding under her cloak of righteousness.
Jace and Luc are still Rhaenyra’s kids, it’s not like in GOT when Cersei has her bastards as heirs to throne despite not having any Borratheon blood at all. Rhaenyra is the heir not Laenor. Kings have the power to legitimize their bastards anyways, that’s how the blackfyre rebellions happened.
It’s more of a problem for who inherits driftmark, but is it really a problem when Laenor who knows they’re bastards, doesn’t care and views them as his sons regardless?? When Lord Corlys knows Lucerys is a bastard and still wants him to inherit driftmark?? Even if Rhaenyra’s kids weren’t bastards, Alicent and Otto would still plot to get Aegon on the throne not to protect Alicent’s children, but to get more power for their house. Alicent is being manipulated but she’s also letting it happen. She’s responsible for all the terrible things that happen to her family.
@@ahmedosman1327 also Rhaenyra did not choose Laenor, King Viserys forced her to marry him to sate Lord Corlys.
@@tikimillie they did that, in the books they try to have a threesome with Laenors lover Qarl, but it didn’t work. Rhaenyra definitely tried her hardest to get pregnant by Laenor. She would’ve known more than anyone that it’d would’ve made things a lot easier lol.
Whos we
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@@hereiam8 nah could never love a pedo
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@@Lena-zn4re nah could never love a pedo
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The Maester in-universe who chronicled The Dance of the Dragons had this to say:
Over the centuries, House Targaryen has produced both great men and monsters. Prince Daemon was both.
True. Still, I think Aemond is an approach I like better to this dichotomy, but I respect the Dragon in both.. but don't forget;
"Daemon Targaryen was more snake than dragon"
@@thalmoragent9344 I don't aggre because nobody liked aemond people liked daemon hense him being seen as both hero and villain aemond doesn't get that treatment.
@@thatoneblackdude3333
Well, yeah that's true in the books. Aemond is mostly connected to the Dance, more than Daemon is, and so Aemonds actions during the war is what's more written about.
Daemon had more time to add to his reputation, him being over 20 years older, and was around at a different time. Makes you wonder how Aemond would've been viewed had he fought in the Stepstones and interacted with more people like Daemon did
@@thalmoragent9344 to be honest Aemond is an will be worse he's a phyco not that he'll be around to do much after the dance LOL
@@cherylbaxter8986
Aemond isn't a psycho, his bitterness is 100% justified. I guarantee you, if Daemon lost an eye in the manner Aemond did, he would've taken intentional vengeance a LOT sooner than 6 years after the fact.
Honestly I think a big part of why we love Daemon is because we love Matt Smith.
I admit I have since Doctor Who. Simply, he’s a terrific actor and sweet guy who loves children and poetry. I just want the best for him, I don’t want to bed him.
..nah. Never knew his name before this... Now, he one of my favorite actors alive🤷🏾♂️
Who?
I was looking forward to Daemon because of Matt Smith, but after episode 2, I loathed Daemon and still do. Matt does a wonderful job playing a complete a--hole, being the nice, goofy dude that he is in real life.
Daemon has been a fan favorite for years. Since the Rogue Prince then Fire and Blood. Matt is just the latest reason.
Honestly, I love Daemon since I ^ve red the books...but Matt makes me love him even more.He was the wonder and the terror of his age and that's interesting , intense and attractive .
Me: I'm concerned that you're fetshizing a very "bad boy" type (and an actual sadist 😲) but I don't want to lecture.
I've lived with two people who were actually somewhat like that and stayed married to and with one if them until the end of his life. It's...an experience. Definitely eventful--but not healthy.
Anyway, no more lecture! TV shows are downtime fun. But if your interested in more thoughts on problematic seductive types you might find my new comment in the main thread.
The actor is probably a lovely guy and that helps muddy the water with these kinds of characters. Though the real ones do often notoriously seem like charming angels until you know them better. By then it can seem too late to turn away. Though it isn't.
The most bad ass moment for me was when he boldly and without any care told the the king his is weak to his face😂 😂😂 I loved him since then
That was good! Shows how big and massive his balls must be . Hahaha.. My favorite scene with him was when he picked up his brother's Crown after helping him to the throne and place it on his head. Such a small split second gesture really showed just how much he truly loved his brother. Plus I read that that wasn't even written into the script, Matt Smith "freestyled" that himself, if I'm remembering correctly. He's such a fantastic actor.
I think what people forget is that Daemon is a combat veteran. I see a man with PTSD. His fear is immediately subsumed in anger. When Rhaenyra talks about dreams, Daemon sees the fall of his family. He sees enemies creeping in. And here is his wife rambling like his useless dead brother. He is Odysseus. He is every combat Veteran who survives war. He is my ex husband. No one seems to touch this. If you've read the Illiad, you would see all the different ways PTSD manifests and what it does to the families of those soldiers.
I kinda got that too, ESPECIALLY with him planning defense during Rhae's labor. Like to me he wasn't a man gleefully planning his war and immune to his wife's pains. This is a soldier planning the defense of a puny island with too few men against the rebels who killed his brother after he ruined their plans, plotted against his family and stole his wife's crown. Granted they didn't kill Vizzy but its not crazy to think do. And his fears about the Greens were RIGHT, Otto was already set to butcher everyone on Dragonstone just to secure Aegon's claim ( oh the irony lol). Daemon 100% saw Otto for who he was.
Very interesting take.
@@Ashbrash1998 Nice! Also I'm not all that sure bout Vizzy (I like!), from early on there is tension between the maesters re the king's treatment, the first Grandmaester was an idiot - cutting Aemma open without knocking her out? I don't trust the fact that only two maesters ever got to treat Vizzy. Remember Shireen? Stannis wasn't bright. but bright enough to safe his daughter by bringing in everyone with an idea of healing. I'm aware about the fact that cuts from the Throne marked a king as not welcome, but it would have been possible. I'm quite certain the hightowers had their hand in Viserys' necrotic tissue problem (especially since Otto was in a lot of contact with the Citadel) and they certainly gave him drugs that allowed Otto, his lickspittles and Alicent free reign. They might not have killed the king that night, they did, however, kill him over a long period of time. I enjoy your comment and it's implications, sorry the reply got overly long. Pls also - I keep books and shows as seperate things.
@@Ashbrash1998A truly brainwashed person is always unable to admit that they've been brainwashed.
I agree I had ptsd and danger kind of becomes you . Its quite a strange thing. When I had ptsd a stranger approached me in a pub and said I had dangerous eyes . He could see it. Interesting analysis
I love daemon because he is a complex character, also matt Smith is so cool
We love him because he is true Westeros badass
teamdaemon because he is the only one who knows that the hightowers have been the problem from the beginning he told his brother I will take care of anyone but his brother I never trust him and there is the result that is what I like about daemon's character because that he can be good or bad with anyone but the only thing that matters to him is his family and he does everything possible to protect them
Exactly #TeamDaemon I love that he saw through the Hightowers he was smart. Viserys should have listened to him. I wonder if he might have listened if Aemma had still been there. Daemon and Princess Rhaenys are my two favorite characters.
I will say that Rhaenerya tried to have children with Laenor, but their trists did not result in children. She needed to provide heirs for the realm and did the best she could to do that. Yes she should have found someone perhaps of color to do this with, but I don’t know how many blonde Valyrian mixed men are around to sneak & try to make heirs with.
Oh and Harwin is handsome and strong (lol literally) & I bet she feels safe with that man by her side. Hard to turn down someone your attracted to and feel safe with.
I don't think we can talk about Daemon's "love" for Rhenera (sorry for spelling, I'm new to the show) without noting that he deliberately sullies her reputation in the hope of reducing his rivals to marry her himself, is trying to marry his neice So That He Can Usurp her power, and seduces a minor as part of his process of grooming her.
As I wrestle with the charismatic, sometimes good, but sometimes pretty nakedly evil people in my own life, I need to Understand Them and what makes them tick. Whitewashing the motivations of an exploitor and sadist like Daemon sets us up to fall for these kinds of morally unreliable people in real life. And trust me, that's no fun at all.
Or rather it IS fun--until suddenly it REALLY ISN'T.
@Jeavan - get out of whatever relationship you're in. If you can't do it all at once, use everything that happens as a knife that cuts another thread in your emotional ties. I used a loom as a model to get out of a situation like this. It was hard - until it suddenly wasn't. Your comments are a bit worrying to me. There seems to be a lot of pain in your life...
Well said!
I disagree with you, to me, it seems that you struggle with understanding Daemon and who he really is. I think that you not only don't understand his motives, but you also fail to understand his dynamic with Viserys.
If Daemon truly wished to usurp Rhaenyra or Viserys, he could go full Maegor on them - he was a skilled warrior, had a dragon (unlike Viserys), who was also skilled in battle (unlike Syrax). He could even try to put himself up as a candidate for crown prince during the Council of 101 - after all, he had a living dragon, reputation as a skilled knight and more connections and harisma than his older brother. But he didn't - he raised an army for Viserys, because Corlys did the same for Rhaenys. Back then he couldn't be sure that Aemma will fail to give birth to male heir who will survive longer than 1 year. He knew that there was a huge possibility that he won't ever sit on the Iron Throne - and yet, he never tried to usurp Viserys. And when he finally married Rhaenyra, he married a woman grown with children, not inexperienced maiden - and she, unlike her father, wasn't so easy to manipulate.
When I see Daemon, I see a warrior, who wanted to have the same relationship with Viserys, as his father Baelon had with his uncle Aemon. He wanted to be important, yes, but most of all he wanted to be respected by his family, yet, he was spurned by his older brother. Viserys ignored Daemon and his counsel, and in thanks of defending his claim to the Iron Throne, he constantly banished him from King's Landing. Daemon was a violent man, yes, but he put his family above everything - he wanted Targaryens to flourish, to bring them back to former glory. His methods, although often very controversial, were actually very effective.
And about Rhaenyra's and Daemon's visit to brothel - first of all, I think that you don't understand Westeros and their politics. By the time he returned, Rhaenyra by all acounts wasn't a minor, but a woman fully grown - she was 17/18. the age when most of the ladies already were married and had children. Her own mother, Aemma, was wed and bedded at the age of 12. Rhaenys gave birth to Laena when she was 18. In Westeros age gap between Rhaenyra and Daemon wasn't controversial - after all, her grandmother Daella, married Rodrik Arryn, who was 20 years older. So she wasn't a minor - not in the world of ASOIAF. And you can judge characters and their actions only by laws and traditions of that world, not by our modern standards. He's not a sadist - but he's cruel to enemies - just like any warrior. He lives in a world where weak people are either killed or exploited like Viserys. It's not a universe when kind souls can exist and survive.
Back to that faithful trip to brothel - Daemon wanted to sully her reputation in hopes that Viserys will allow them to marry, to save her and her reputation. He knew that Otto had bigger influence on Viserys than anyone from their family. He knew that his older brother thinks the worst of him and will never allow Rhaenyra to marry Daemon. So he did the only thing he thought would work. It wasn't right and it certainly wasn't a good plan, but to be fair, Daemon's plans were rarely well-thought.
I think he loved Rhaenyra - as his niece, but then, between one banishment and the other, and war, he started seeing her as a woman (again - normal in their family AND in Westeros, marriages between first cousins or uncle/niece weren't that uncommon after all). But you should remember that Daemon had always problems with expressing his feelings - he grew up in a viper's den, where showing too much emotions were a quick way to lose the game. He was also hurt by many people in his family - Alysanne and Jaehaerys for marriage to Rhea, Viserys for his treatment and for not granting him the annulment. He was angry and hurth, didn't know how to properly communicate - so he often used anger, because it was something he knew and what everyone expected from him.
To be fair, HotD did him dirty, especially when they decided to make him a monster, by not including the scenes like where he hugged Baela and Rhaena after Laena's death. He's not a heartless monster you think he is. I think that your problems is projecting your feeling and experiences on him. He's not the abuser you think he is. By all accounts - he's not a good man, not in a traditional meaning of this world, but he never tried to pretend otherwise. You don't understand him as a character - you only see what you want to see.
@@svverte5578 lol and I think you struggle with brevity
Listen I wasn’t rocking with Daemon until he defended Ray-Ray when her sons were called bastards. “ He can keep his tongue” 😱😱😱😱😱Then he sings to the dragon😍😍😍😍😍😍.
He is the best actor in this show all I know I love him Mad Respect 💋
I think the reason we love Daemon is because he's both good and bad and he's upfront and honest about it he truly is a grey character society always gets caught up in good versus evil light versus dark we never see one person truly embrace both so when Daemon does it we are drawn to him I personally like this Ive always lived this way myself you need to live this way if you want balance in your life
I think that's it, on the beach scene with him and Rhaenyra walking when he tells her "if you're accusing me of depravity, you're going to be more specific". He owns up to the fucked up shit he's done and people admire honesty
That's so completely wrong and fucking stupid. If you're choosing to be dark 50% of the time, you're choosing to be horrible 50% of the time on purpose.
That's not right, that's morally wrong and insane. You have a lot of room to grow. You should change and be a better person than whatever this is.
Daemon doesn’t balance good and evil, he’s an evil guy who very occasionally does some mildly good shit for certain members of his family in between bouts of extreme violence and sexual abuse. Please don’t live this way.
@@Borgcow You're wrong there. Daemon has clearly done good things, too. He ended the war in the Stepstones and he also saved many people from rape, murder, and robbery in King's Landing, even if his methods were occationally gruesome. He has more good in him than you think.
@@juicypineapple6995 no, you’re just giving him far too much credit. He actually doesn’t save anyone, what he does is mutilates and murders a bunch of accused criminals without a trial, and as this guy even says in this video, he does it for political reasons, not out of a sense of justice. Then he agrees to fight in the Stepstones out of ambition and personal glory, with a pinch of boredom and irritation with his brother thrown in. That’s literally how Corlys convinced him to join with the whole “second sons” speech. Again, I’m not saying he doesn’t do good things, but there’s not one good thing he does that he doesn’t stand to benefit from, whether in his mind or in reality. And those things certainly don’t outweigh the outright bad stuff enough to make him heroic or even gray
GRRM said Daemon is one of his favorites since he like Tyrion is a almost a pure neutral
What a weird thing to say about two characters who are anything BUT neutral. When did he say this?
@@Borgcow what's really meant by neutral is the fact that you don't quite know who's side they are. Daemon sort of just does his own thing and Tyrion sort of does the same. This is more emphasized in the books though. Tyrion for example is a Lannister but he still shows Stark sympathies and seems to fight for his family more out of desire for his own survival then any genuine loyalty to them. Daemon similarly just does his own thing as well especially in the beginning of the show. Neither would exactly be considered "good" Daemon chokes Raenyra in the finale and sleeps around a fair bit and Tyrion strangles Shae (in a much more brutal way in the books). At the same time though they kind of do some "good" things as well.
@@bradleymarshall5489 hmm I guess I buy that for show Tyrion, but book Tyrion isnt neutral in any sense of the word. He’s squarely on his family’s side until he finds out Tysha was true after all, and that Tywin was fucking Shea, so he caps his ass. He understandably doesn’t know what the fuck to do for a bit, but comes pretty quickly to Team Fuck the Other Lannisters, mostly cuz that will help him get what he wants. He’s a self-motivated chaos maker for certain, and getting darker and darker (ordering the singer to be cooked in a stew, raping that slave, wanting to rape his sister) all the time
He will end up being the hero of the show, he has an heroical spirit , althought yes he is brutal, violent but he protects his family, now he will have an important mision: To destroy the greens, specially we know who
Spoiler
He never manages to protect anyone except his mistress. He does a pretty glorious murder-suicide with his doppelganger, but also orchestrates a brutal murder of a little child which drives its mother to suicide as well.
@@ajae... I already know that people who read the books think they are superior telling how things will end but they are not better than the people who didnt read the book and Daemon will always be a hero to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@@anaclarisaarrosio9192 Relax. I was just letting you know that Daemon will be the hero of shit because he's a shit person.
@@ajae...Yeah... he definitely totally didn't avenge Lucerys like he promised nor aid Rhaenyra in taking King's Landing and he totally absolutely didn't save Nettles from being tortured/slaughtered by Rhaenyra and he totally did not kill one of the top 2 joint assets of the Greens in Aemond & Vhagar.....
@@browniebear Your sarcasm is deplorable. Try again.
He's a Dragon. That's all.
Here’s the viewpoint of a unbiased friend about Daemon. Although Vicerys was his fav character this season, what he loves about Daemon is his unpredictability. He knows when Daemon enters any scene, you don’t know what he’ll do and it’s great fun. On the other hand it feels like what he does is still within his character driven by the prime motivations of family that Matt Smith has outlined. Prrsonally, I’m biased. He’s been my fav actor since Doctor, one of the few I like. I agree totally about the missing context and his neglect of his daughters. If he loves family, he doesn’t love his children? Makes no sense to me. But tbf, they may have just run out of time, and this has to be one of the hardest characters to write.
I think your point about his authenticity is one of the major ones. People hate hypocrites.
Nice job on this
There's a scene that got cut from the show Where they show Daemon comforting and showing love to his daughters after his wife died in childbirth. I think the show runners should have left that scene so that we could see the fathering side of Daemon that must have loved his girls in some way at least.
@@catherineervin2630 I know I saw it. They’re claiming time constraints, and I’m sure that’s part of it. But it’s obvious they’re doing some of it purposefully. I kept waiting for the rest of the season for Daemon to talk to his daughters. Not one word passed between them. I think there were some smiles passed around the dinner table in episode 8; but we didn’t get to see them. In 10, as Daemon is rattling off the names of the unclaimed dragons, the camera pans to Raeyna, but still, no conversation. I’m hoping they give those girls more in Season 2. They had to cut out so many character moments. They got very little screen time and dialogue
He value his blood so much. Targaryen glory is what he fight for. I kinda think he likes Rhaenyra's bstrds bcs they're all dragon riders. I have hypothesis Targaryen only value the children from their true love. Bcs it happened on Aegon I to Rhaenys, Viserys to Aemma, and Aegon the Unworthy to Princess Daena too. Viserys only loves Aemma for his whole life. That's why there's difference between Aemma's and Alicent's children for him. Daemon favor Baela bcs she's a dragon rider but IF he favor both his sons more than his daughters despite of his youngest son's egg never hatched just like Rhaena, then it must be true. Bcs it seems to me he loves Rhaenyra more than Laena
@@greenforce68 Daemon “loves Rhaenyra more than Laena,” really? Is that why he chokes her? No, dude is a straight up misogynist who never really loved anyone but himself and his brother. It makes way more sense to the personality they’ve established (wildly inconsistent though it is) that he’s a shit dad to his daughters and only gives any scrap of attention to the dragon riding one
@@Borgcow I thought it was clear, he chokes her bcs he was mad that Rhaenyra doesn't share the same rage as he was. At that moment he lost a baby, a brother, and his wife's crown. Plus, Viserys never considered him as his heir. Imagine not being considered by someone you love in a whole life. Viserys was like a father to him. You see how he behave when he's mad. When Viserys send him away to the Vale on EP1, he went straight up to Vis before the Kingsguard stopped him. You can see Vis was shaken. But on the next episode when Corlys mock Vis, Daemon threaten him. EP3 also shows Daemon response when Vis undermines him. He beats up the messenger. He could love them and still attempt to hurt them bcs that's how he is. That's how unpredictable he is. Rhae knew what she brought into her table when she claim him. Targaryen are chaotic
The TV show turned Daemon into a villain. Even one of the female writers posted a hate filled rant on Twitter about him, and fans that like him (The choking scene is absolutely stupid), all while making excuses for The Greens, and demonizing The Blacks.
Huh interesting. Do you really think so. I'd say the choking scene might be inconsistent with his show character thus far; but actually MORE consistent with his book character. The book leaves things pretty vague I'd say, which leaves a lot of things open to not only rewriting (the book is a historical account which they can justifiably edit retrospectively) but pure elaboration.
How we as an audience FEEL about those rewrites and elaborations is definitely an interesting area of conversation. I for one think they should have left out the choking scene and done something a bit more morally grey.
There are few moments which paint Daemon most definitively as villainous and scheming; the foremost in my mind would probably be that escapade of taking Rhaenyra to the show/brothel, and then this choking scene. The former makes his entire arc seem much more calculated and less earnest. The latter makes him seem downright unbalanced and pscychopathic. I think they could have tweaked just a FEW things in the King's Landing episode, and a FEW things in the choking scene, and made it seem a bit more nuanced/conflicted.
As is, though, I think both of those fit with book Daemon actually BETTER than show Daemon. The only thing I really remember which recommends Daemon as a possible hero/antihero/relatable protagonist in the book is his ultimate death above the God's Eye. That really cements him as someone you can get behind, someone who gave himself for something other (whether you count it love, the realm, the histories, or the sheer bloody joy of combat).
I do think the writers were startled by his popularity, so they probably intended something a bit more villainous. I'd say the Green children, especially Aegon, are viewed a bit more negatively because of Alicent, and because we didn't really see them grow up in the same way we saw Rhaenyra grow up. If you look at it objectively though, I think there are many reasons to back the Greens, or else to despise Rhaenyra in much the same way we are inclined to despise Aegon (or to fear Aemond).
Granted, she seems much more human than Aegon in some ways. He was an absolute creep and tyrant growing up. But she's actively choosing arguably more destructive things, probably due to her general bitterness, unresolved daddy issues, and the strength of her love for her children.
apparently there was a director who cut out a bunch of scenes with daemon showing compassion and his soft side
hopefully that director won’t be working on season 2, because she’d just take out a fuck ton of daemon scenes
I think its simple really. The only one allowed to pick on my brother is me. And if you try to pick on him I'm gonna make you pay. He wanted to be not the Kings hand but the Kings FIST. He wanted to be his brothers strength, a strength no one could test. If he is weak that makes his brother and their dynasty weak. The Vipers wriggle their way into the den.
His aura was bold and full of excellence. Smart in what he did in the series. Although it is scripted, he falls in love, proof of his effective character. In the real kingdom, HIS character is really what is needed to have a really abundant kingdom with order. That's why I really like him among all the kings. Daemon Targaryen (Matt Smith) made a big impact in the movie. Kudos!😘💛🫰💕✌️I'm from the Philippines 😘
#Gamesofthrones
more power po from the Philippines 😘🌷✌️🧡💚💚💚💚🙏🏼🛐😘😇🫶 praying for your more success po 😘
hes irritated that weaker men rule but hes still loyal
Hey this an excellent video and very well thought out. You need to do more GOT videos!
"they share an ancient tongue" 😉
Also an ancestors tongue 🤢
@@tikimillie cry about it loser
@@hereiam8 lol wut
33:25 as soon as Cole was on the move Daemon jumped in, you can tell he wanted that smoke lol
Daemon isn't George's favorite Targaryen for no reason..
Daemon is the pinnacle of a "grey" character, acting both noble and ignoble, to get the job done. Much like Bloodraven (another very popular and mysterious Targaryen/Blackwood) later on, for Daemon, the ends justify the means.
The thing is, there's shades of grey; Roose Bolton is another grey character, but we mostly find him honorless and creepy.
Daemon's "grey" is courageous; he doesn't stray from a fight, he's passionate and hot-blooded, so many things that (especially young) women find irresistible, in spite of the danger of associating with him.
He's the "bad boy" every girl wants, and every women knows is bad for her, but she wants him anyway.
He's a good guy and he loves Rhaenyra, he just doesn't do things in a good way, and I love that. Sometimes harsh decisions have to be made.
Also, butchering rapists is 100% called for.
That time Rhaenys announced Vicerys’ death to me says a lot about Daemon and Rhaenyra which no one has ever pointed out. Rhaenyra reacting more on the fact that Aegon was crowned king while Daemon asked “how did my brother die?” This says a lot about these two characters despite the fact that Daemon is vilified far more than the hypocrite Rhaenyra who used him, begged him to marry her for her own benefit, while he was content with his life in Pentos - far away and freed from all the “political scheming, the endless shifting of loyalties and succession”. That episode of Daemon in Pentos wanting to stay away from the throne world made me love him even more but was somehow overlooked by many haters of this fascinating character
Daemon Targaryen is the best character of House of the Dragon (to me). Matt Smith plays the character perfectly. He is very mecurial. He has tension- you never know if he will be "happy" , "sad", or "in a killer mood". He is very focused on whatever he is doing. He is definitely a person who when he walks in a room, every body stands at attention. When he is happy, everybody is happy. When he is sad, every body is sad and you don't know what he will do next. Did you see when he killed the Crab King???? Then he just drags his body out like he is just strolling! What you know is if Daemon is sad, go hide!!! If Daemon is in a "killer mood" too late to hide. You really need to hide NOW. He still gives you an opportunity. I loved when Aemond Valeryen (brother to Corlyss Valeryen) said,
"She is a whore! And he children are BASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSTAAAAAAAAAARDS!" That fool know he was gonna die!!! And Daemon answered the request- He 's like "He can keep his tongue!!!!" Did you see the face on his wanna be just like him nephew- Aemond, one eye? He wants to be just like his Uncle Daemon.
Even his daughter, Baela, says "Sometimes I hate him!"
I love Daemon! I would definitely try to stay on his good side. Yeah, Daemon Targaryen is the best character.
6:35 to 7:55 REALLY creative cross cutting of images from GOT and even The Lord of the rings. A beautiful passage about when the heroic days become mere legend. I was dubious about celebrating Daemon too much, but setting that aside this is a very creatively and well made video.
And the narration doesn't sound like a chipmuck on Meth! Meaning it's not too fast.
It might be interesting if this channel and the slightly but not excessively female oriented cha Hills Alive did a discussion and or civil debate video...
is that a quote or just him talking?
Hills Alive really does toe that narrow line dangerously doesn't she lol
It's amazing how Daemon's reception to other characters in the show is exactly the same as real life fans.
"To some he was a hero, to others the blackest of villains."
He’s a badass!
Daemon is the archetype of a tragic hero, like Macbeath. The paradigm of the tragic hero emerged in Ancient Greece, and is described by Aristotle in his "Poetics" which outlines the origins and factors involved in Greek Tragedy. The tragic hero is a "great soul," but is fatally flawed. He or she, though, is always utterly compelling. Fortunately, in this series the tragic hero, Daemon, is portrayed by a fine actor.
Daemon is a compelling and complex villain (despite being written wildly inconsistently from episode to episode) but he’s not some kind of antihero. Not on the show, anyway. In fact I don’t think we EVER see him do anything “good” that can’t be attributed to self-motivated reasoning. Against that we have to weigh all of the unforgivable shit he does throughout the season, which he never shows the slightest remorse for. Add it all up and he’s definitely an evil character overall and not “grey” as so many people insist.
Yup i don't like him. He killed his first wife and is overall a dick
@@mxflint1715 lol well I do like him as a villain but yeah, as a person he sucks!
I dont knoow if you remember but actually Rhaenyra said that she tried to make babies with Leonor so nope its not her fault...then its just as much Leonors fault .... fact is that Rhaenyra needed heirs anyway... youy can say that why couldnt she fall in love with someone black but love doesnt work like that ;D at least in season Rhaenyra has done nothing wrong if it comes to that
She doesn't get to choose 'love' in her position. She needs heirs, they had to at least be believably her and Laenor's kids so that the question of bastards wouldn't be a major issue. Their true father should have been some dragonseed with silver hair or someone darker skinned like Laenor in the show
Book daemon is clearly the hero of the dance. Show daemon is just Matt Smith.
Hey Jesse, you seemed to have stepped up your production, good on ya.
I like that you do actually criticise Rhaenyra. The fact is, she wanted to be Queen but didn't want to accept the responsibilities of being Queen. Was it unfair to her? Yes. The expectation of a monarch to produce heirs is far more taxing on the woman than the man. And it's totally understandable that she felt insulted by people constantly trying to undermine her claim just because she was a woman. And yes, while often neither a male or female ruler gets to marry for love, it's common for people to ignore the male ruler sleeping with whoever he wants on the side, whereas noble women can be killed for that. That is horrifically unfair and Rhaenyra has a right to be pissed off.
BUT. Here's what matters more. Rhaenyra knew her claim was going to be contested, and not just with insults at court. As soon as Viserys had sons, she knew this was more serious. At that point, choosing to sire not one, not two but THREE bastards was INCREDIBLY irresponsible. Yes I get no one should have the right to tell a woman whose children she gets to have, but as unfair as it is, Rhaenyra KNEW this alone could cause a civil war, endangering her children, herself, her husband, AND the boys' true father, not to mention hundreds or thousands of soldiers who would be sent to fight a preventable war. She should have taken Moon Tea and prevented the pregnancies. But she was so angry at her father from the last time she got caught and how he had sent her Moon Tea that she had the children to spite everyone. Yes she was mistreated but her way of handling it literally gets people killed. That is worse and honestly downright cruel, if not intentionally cruel.
Rhaenyra should have prevented pregnancies from Harwyn Strong, and then, given Laenor was unable to get Rhaenyra pregnant, she should have seceded the throne. Not because she was a woman, but because she had no heirs, and therefore was inviting a another succession crisis. She should have spoken with her father, had HIM renounce his former declaration, and making display in court to try to persuade the nobles that this was Rhaenyra's idea. It would have won her a great deal of popularity, for deliberately sacrificing her claim to the throne for the stability of the realm, as opposed to her just having it taken away and being seen as another royal brat wanting the pointy chair. And that credibility would help secure the legitimacy of whoever they chose to succeed Viserys.
And now you might be wondering, wouldn't this then cause Aegon to become king? When his favourite pastimes are excessive drinking and sexual assault? That's a terrible idea. And Yes, it is a terrible idea. But Aegon was a relatively contained problem before Otto and Alicent put a crown on his head. There is a MUCH better candidate. Aemond. And keep in mind in this timeline, Aemond still failed to bond with the egg they placed in his cradle, and therefore was still just as brutally bullied by Aegon for not having a dragon. Which means he still claims Vhagar. So they don't have to worry about the second son betraying the crowned Aegon because he has a bigger dragon and thinks he can get away with it. Instead, it's Aegon who would be scared to challenge Aemond. Not only that, but Aegon didn't even WANT the throne until they put him on it. He straight up told Aemond that he'd let him have it. So we have the smarter, more educated, more respected and significantly more moral candidate chosen as heir, and to boot he has the biggest dragon. He'd be seen as the strongest Targaryen heir in generations.
Now, there are some discontented parties. While this would bring peace between Rheanyra and the Hightowers, as either Aegon of Aemond on the throne is good for Otto, there's still Corlys and Daemon to worry about. This would be not one, but two marriage pacts with the Velaryons that Viserys has tossed out. And the first time around Corlys was so pissed off that he went off to fight a war independently of the Crown, declaring without words that ultimately he was the actual protector of Westeros. It was a HUGE challenge to Viserys authority and given Corlys invited Daemon, it was obvious Corlys was making it clear that if it came to it, he'd back Daemon should Daemon stage a coup. How do you deal with this? Well after Laena's death, Daemon left one of his daughters at Driftmark to be fostered by the Velaryons, only taking one to Dragonstone with Rhaenyra. While I don't think Daemon goes to Dragonstone with her in this scenario, I do think it's likely he'd leave a daughter at Driftmark. Probably both to be honest. Because keep in mind in this version, Rhaenyra has no incentive to marry Daemon. There was no fight after Aemond claimed Vhagar. She has no sons that she worries Otto will one day assassinate. Jayce, Luke and Joffrey don't exist. And again we're pretending in this version that Rhaenyra is making sacrifices to ensure stability, so even though I expect she sleeps with Daemon, she doesn't marry him. That means there's no comfortable family life awaiting Daemon on Dragonstone to raise one of his daughters. So honestly I think he'd leave them both on Driftmark, not just one. But one is all you need.
Marry one of Daemon's daughters to Aemond. Again, he's left at least one, probably both on Driftmark in this scenario, so if Viserys and Rhaenyra arrange the marriage with Corlys and Rhaenys and cut out Daemon, he's not going to be able to prevent the wedding. And again, in this scenario Jayce and Luke don't exist. Corlys has no marital link to the throne like he wanted. Obviously he knew the bastards weren't his real grandsons, but for him the name Velaryon was enough. And he and Rhaenys are a lot less pissed off, because staging Laenor's death was only prompted by the fight between Rhaenyra and Alicent's sons on Driftmark, and Aemond taking Vhagar. Rhaenyra and Daemon knew a fight was coming and married to strengthen their position. So in this version, Laenor's still around, and therefore Corlys and Rhaenys are more amenable, and Corlys ultimately gets most of what he wanted.
That leaves the only issue to be Daemon. And honestly Daemon is such a wildcard I really don't know what he does in this scenario. He's good at sewing chaos and a big part of what seemed to convince him to give up pursuing the throne the first time around was that Rhaenyra had her own heirs already in addition to Viserys' sons. Who no longer had a good claim and so his only chance at power was to back another party. But in this version, he knows his only real obstacle is Aemond. Aemond is the linchpin that makes the entire plan work. Aegon could not be trusted to not attack Rhaenyra if crowned. Aemond (who in this version has no grudge against Rhaenyra given he has both of his eyes) could be relied upon to keep his word. And with Rhaenyra on team Green in this scenario Otto has no reason to assassinate her. His ambitions are directly aided by her presence. So the only play Daemon has is to kill Aemond. Given Aemond is a reknowned fighter and Otto would take Aemond's security seriously (even if just to ensure Aegon doesn't do something stupid), a knife in the dark ain't gonna work. Although Daemon's knowledge of the hidden tunnels in the Red Keep would cause him to get closer than most. He doesn't really have an agent close enough to Aemond to poison him, and he has too little power to ensure such an agent wouldn't just go to Otto immediately for a payout. A duel in open court isn't going to work because even IF Daemon can beat Aemond, Aegon's backup number 1 and in the books Daeron is backup number two. And Corlys only has reason to be pissed at Daemon if Aemond dies, rendering his marriage void.
Honestly, I think Daemon's only play that has a chance of working is kind of similar to how their final confrontation goes in Fire and Blood. The only way to take out Aemond and actually make enough of an impression to intimidate Aegon and Daeron into backing off is to find Aemond mid flight and attempt a surprise attack with Caraxes. It's way riskier, but the only option that would make the political dent he needs. Plus we saw in the Stepstones the level of danger Daemon will put himself through just to make a point. Daemon had about an 80% chance of dying in the ploy that won him the war in the Stepstones, and he did that just so they could win before Viserys sent reinforcements. Even if he died in the battle Daemon wanted all to remember this was HIS victory. And had the battle been lost, well Daemon would be too dead to care. I think he'd accepted that already. If he's bold enough to do that, he's bold enough to challenge Vhagar. And given Fire and we know that means both dragons and both riders go down.
In the show this is a pretty terrible situation for Rhaenyra, with Aegon now first in line given she seceded and has no heirs. But if we're going off the books, this still works fine, since Daeron is an easy backup. The issue down the line here is by this point, Aegon might have gone from not really caring about getting the throne to being pretty insulted at being passed over twice. Given he offered to sail away from King's Landing in the show when he offered the crown to Aemond, I think if Daeron is too protected he flies across the Narrow Sea living as a prince in exile similar to Daemon once upon a time.
@wafflingmean4477 First, I loved your synopsis of an alternate universe for HOTD. I agree with everything you wrote of what could possibly happen. But, I play advocate- If it happened the way you say there would be no conflict and no war and no HOTD. But, I did enjoy reading your synopsis. I totally agree- Rhaenyra wanted to be queen, but she did not want the responsibilities of being a queen. As her cousin, Princess Rhaenys said, "The men would rather see the realm burn than a woman sitting on the throne." So, Rhaenyra was dealing with misogyny and sexism.
Thanks for sharing.
Daemon is like anyone else …does that love you seee you as a hero and those that hate you and fear you see you as the great villain
A great actor will make you love a bad character. Tony Soprano , Jimmy McNulty , Walter White. It's all about the actors and script
Eh, the script ain't so hot on HOTD.
@@xxwhispersxx2856 History doesn't remember blood. History remembers names!
@@BubblegumCrash332 and hair colors :/
I agree partly, The only issue I have with this statement, if you can even call it an issue, more like A small friendly Disagreement lol, is that Dameon Was a favorite character long before there was ever a show or actor to portray him. He is just a Testament to George RR Martin's great skill as a writer to develop compelling characters.
@@agahpito902 Hahaha, I love this added statement. Lol
Cause Matt Smith is a very good actor.
I do believe Matt Smith is brilliantly cast as Deamon.
I think I can relate to him because as much as I TRY to be a "good person", and I mostly succeed @ it- I am well aware of being flawed, and am well aware of the "bad deeds" I have committed in my past. (Mind you no stealing of virginity, murder, or treason).
So we can see ourselves in Daemon.
Ps: Leonor DID try to do his duty EVEN in the show the make sure to establish that.
Also:FYI I am mixed race like "Leanor" and married to a fully Caucasian man and my children are all "white in skin tone". What gives Rhynara away in this story is the lack of Valarian Silver-White hair, not skin tone.
Granted- Deamon's kids with Laena are pretty dark- I believe that's why they cast Leanor and Laena slightly different in "melanin" level. Leanor was always pretty fair like myself, so his children being white is not crazy. It's all about the hair. Really.
( And yes I read the books too). I LOVE the choices the made with the show 99.5%
Fully agree, the skin color is a non-issue with regards to the paternity of her kids (at least by itself) although I do think the scene with Vaemond denouncing them at court is even better with this element, him juxtaposed against Rhae’s sons so starkly
@alextrudelle True- but Vamond didn't marry a Caucasian Targaryen like his brother* (in the show*) did. I mean let's take real life mixed race Meghan M and Prince Harry- OF COURSE their child was going to be white as the child IS mostly Caucasian. The "one drop rule" doesn't apply anymore.
HOWEVER thank you for seeing my point.
Honestly the whole issue is hair color more than anything else. Both Rhynara and Leanor have the exact same hair color, as do both of Leanor's parents. So the chances of very light skinned man and a white woman having white appearing kids is not a shock at all- its the brown hair that takes a lot of explaining.
Vamond was a power hungry prick. Leanor TRIED to get Rhynara pregnant, and EITHER way he loved those 3 boys as his own.
Jon Snows dark hair can be explained away by the Stark genes; while Rhynara's children with "Leanor" (Harwin) are shown in the show ( books are different) to have parents and grandparents on both sides of the three boys to have a certain hair color wind up with brown hair.
@@museysmoderndreadfulsoh for sure, I just meant that scene was even more dramatic and got it’s point across visually as well as thru dialogue with Vaemond being so utterly different from Luke, hair color, skin color, facial features, everything. He didn’t marry and have kids with a white woman, no, but he does look like his brother (as much as TV allows for, anyway) who did, and who Luke is supposed to share like 25% of his genes with.
Also good point about Jon Snow, I believe that actually brings up a potential mistake with the adaptation. In the book we don’t know Alicent’s hair color, but in the show she’s brunette and yet all her kids are platinum blonde who look like Targaryens and nothing like her or Otto. If we apply the same reasoning to them, it seems like one of Alicent’s kids should have had brown hair, or at least darker blond hair. All of Rhae’s kids came out that way, yet none of Al’s do, despite them all having the same proportion of Targaryen and “Caucasian” Westerosi genes. Not statistically impossible or anything, but it seems highly unlikely given we’re talking about like 7 different people. Furthermore it’s already established that Targaryen hair (and by extension their other unique traits) are recessive traits, or else they wouldn’t need to inbreed to keep them going
@alextrudelle I dig what you're laying down.
And I'm glad I'm finally talking to someone that knows that it's pretty unlikely that skintone would be the give away when a mixed race person marries/has kids with a fully Caucasian person.
I mean- can you imagine ppl wondering if Zendaya got pregnant with Tom Holland in the future if their kids would be the exact same skin tone as her? People just have to realize, just like when painting, if you add brown and white you get tan, when you add tan and white you're eventually get such a light tan that it may as well be a shade of white.
(But they'd probablytan very easily while riding their Dragons in the Summer).
I like the idea one of Allicent's kids having maybe a darker blonde "golden blonde instead of silver blonde) hair, or brown hair with blonde streaks...but I believe that's supposed to show up more often when the Blackfyres come along.
@@museysmoderndreadfuls oh man another good point, even the dragon riding Targs are suuuuper pale. Daemon in particular fought several years from his dragon on a bunch of tiny islands in the ocean and is straight up Elmer’s glue white. If I’m honeypotting, maybe their fire resistance applies to sunbeams? 😅
Why does everyone keep trying to overlook the fact that Rhaenyra didn’t just have bastards willy nilly? The only reason she probably even looked at Harwin to father her kids was because Laenor couldn’t perform the act and she was desperate for children. The court was already divided and he was probably the only one she could trust to have a NECESSARY affair with! It’s wasn’t just her lust that made her have all her bastards. IT WAS NECESSITY. Viserys literally told her when she was younger that she needed to secure her own line of succession and have heirs.
There was always going to be a civil war regardless of whether or not her kids were legitimate. Otto was NOT going down without a fight. IT WAS INEVITABLE! It’s worrisome to me that in all these video essays barely anyone touch’s on these points.
I love Daemon
he's simply an ancient Tyler Durden duh
Ye olde Sigma male
What? The hallucination of a Mad Man?
@@Egilhelmson lol might be
Because this a world of grey characters. And one of the greyest of them all is Damon. He’s a lot like a mixture of Tyrion and Jamie. They are both grey characters. George’s fav Targaryen is Damon and in a Song of Ice and Fire is Tyrion. They are complex.
In no way do I side with Alicent or her children!
He's the main hero in the dance of the dragon. Along with Rhynese, Sea Snake Luke Jace, Rhynera and Allisan are equally considered as villian
This is GRRM characters, who are you gonna be rooting for here? Otto? moral shit doesn't exist here. Jon Snow is probably the only morally good character in this universe lmao
I love Daemon because he's so bold and his motives are clear than the other characters. Even though hes reckless and impulsive he has a good heart.
You do realize that he groomed Rhaenyra, right? He didn't fall in love with her, he probably wanted to marry her ever since he realized that she wouldn’t have brothers. I don't think praising his honesty is the best read.
Just found this channel - love the style of this video, the way you break things down is awesome. Thank you
George rr Martian said himself Daemon is his favorite character in his books
Yeah and I can totally see why. It is curious to me that in the book itself, a lot of nuance is left unarticulated and actually some of it is outright countered (stating clearly who meant to kill whom, what they intended to happen, etc). I'd be curious to see inside Martin's head (or notebooks) and understand the full scope of certain characters. There's this category of players who have massive roles in his world but whose actual personal lives have been left relatively unexplored--characters like Daemon, Hightower, Varys, Cregan Stark, even Lucerys before his death, many of the Greyjoys, and so on. All of them are ripe for deep storytelling.
Obviously this is due to the intentional narrative style of the book. In the show I guess we'll get to explore a lot further; but I'd be curious to see how much Martin had actually envisioned beforehand.
Rhaenyra no traiciono a alicent si lo pones así ella fue la primera en aser lo en casarse con viserys la diferencia es q alicent envidia a rhaenyra q ella no sigue las reglas y ella si ese es todo el problema si ella se enoja por eso con rhaenyra por q no se enoja con otto q fue quien la metió en todo eso mandándola donde viserys y luego quiere poner a aegon q sea rey sabiendo q el no sería un buen rey pero por eso ningun personaje es bueno o malo todos son grises
daemon is one of the best anti-heroes ever written in fiction and matt smith is just perfect
Underrated channel
Great video! Deamon's my FAVORITE!...
27:58 Not an innocent girl. An innocent woman, and both of her children.
Thank you for this video essay, and definetly start a channel! =)
This was such a fantastic video. Well done!!!
Thanks! I really appreciate it. Hoping to return to Westeros quite soon
Daemon Targaryen is so badass he sends thugs to kill toddlers
Because he's an anime character.
Damon is a stern reminder why incest is bad.
Rhaenyra likes him because grooming lol
Sure that’s totally it. She’s never smart enough to figure that out. She’s never responsible for her own actions. How insulting to her
@@vanessalore9942 she’s a teenager and he’s in his thirties. There is some element of grooming and abuse of one’s position
@@vanessalore9942 I dunno, seems like she's only responsible for her own actions when it suits her fans
@@vanessalore9942 it’s 100% grooming lol
He’s cute!😍
very very goood work, motivational and scientific
Cheers! Really appreciate it.
Wheres that quote from about to much peace ?
I love him because I'm a misogynist.
He's a glorified thug, nothing more
Daemon is not a good character, he is a great character.
The problem with attraction to power and competence is that incompetent narcissists are so could at faking both.
Or the selective competence of the famous. My late husband still has admirers all over the globe because of the books he wrote and speeches he gave, but his love life and family life was a series of dysfunctional failures covered over with bravado.
Often the people who act out the part of the powerful, competent hero or guru are the most dysfunctional behind closed doors.
If you are a woman this makes sense. Women seem to be more capable of seeing Daemon for what he is. Maybe it's his murder, manipulation, abuse, and negligence of the women and girls in his life that helps. Perhaps that helps in be seen as a hero, too. "He can control his wimmins and mAke ThEm aCcouTabLe".
He hasn't actually done anything particularly heroic on the show, but he's still getting the "cool, badass" title. He went to fight a war because he was sulking. People attribute winning that war to him forgetting that it was a teenager who came up with the winning plan that needed a psychotic asshole that no one cared about dying to make it work. Old man Corlyss fought harder in that battle. I get why he's loved, but it's so fucking gross.
18:42 lol, Targaryen family tree
Well said. This was really well done.
He's not a good man, but he's a good character
WTH? You were talking about the blonde guy's and switched over to The Lord of The Rings? Oh well, I always liked JRR Tolkien better than George RR Martin
@ Jesse Tate - This is very well done. Pleasant to listen to, while being intricate enough to keep the brain busy. Do you have material of your own available to readers somewhere?
Sorry about the delayed response. I'm trying to get on the train and do this properly, be punctual and consistent, and so on. So far it's tough 😅
I'm currently outlining a sci-fi novel, and am about 80K into my first fantasy novel with a lot of rewriting still ahead. Sadly I have nothing else published under my own name (I've been ghostwriting for about 7 years but all that work is protected by NDA).
I appreciat the thoughtful compliment though.
@@JesseTate No need to apologize, though it's always a pleasure to hear from a content creator, or others who share interests and comments, for that matter. I'm glad to hear you're writing - it doesn't matter that it's published under another name, it means you had the chance to gather experience! Though I hope you'll either share excerpts of your novels here or inform us where we can see your work when the time is right. I have one request, though - once you get to the serious stage of writing, please pick a priority, work on one novel and finish it. Should you ever need a beta reader or even an alpha reader, I'm more than willing. For now, thank you for getting back to my comment and know that I truly hope to see you succeed!
@@JesseTate You're very welcome, though it's not a compliment.
Enjoyed your thoughts good listen
Team Black
AmaZing ViDEo
Daemon was shocking and outrageous I think that's why he was liked, I'll be honest I liked him until...well, we know what it is...
I dont ,I hate him
Cause what we see is what we get
Rhaenyra’s recklessness only made me love her more and despise Alicent and her hurt feelings 😂
…you sure call Daemon “pure” a gross number of times in this, huh?
Daemon is GRRM favourite character if I'm not correct?
Subbed
We all prefer a character with depth and not just one note stereotyping characters
I wonder,, how these people keep a straight face while speaking in high volarrion !! 🙄
One: In the words of SNL’s Jon Lovitz, ACTING!
Two: Multiple takes.
Every hero eventually becomes a bore
I adore Aimond too...
Great video
6:25 to 7:10 Okay, this is more than naive bad boy worship, this idea of the primal and the wild versus the corrupted and overly softened is philosophically interesting.
It's probably a boring solution but just as psychologists say that the father style of parenting, which involves challenging them and giving them a little push out into the world, and the mother style of parenting, which is protective and nurturing, are really Both needed, in equal measure, maybe the best ruler is neither a sadistic adventurer or a soft and spoiled person but someone in that often healthier place between extremes.
"All things in moderation" is hardly a sexy medsage but it's often true.
Susan Sontag wrote about reliable thinkers who were like husbands versus adventurous thinkers who were like lovers; clearly she preferred the later.
My problem with the latter is that at the end of the day their ideas are exciting but inapplicable and sometimes dangerous, like the wild idea of Nietzche being used, with his sisters full support, to legitimize Hitler and the Nazis.
Wheras an author like...maybe Camus is more likely to give you less Outrageous ideas but ideas you can actually use to improve your life. Maybe?
I mean have you seen the fanbase for Loki? Are we surprised?