Can You Faithfully Follow Jesus and Affirm Same-Sex Unions?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.พ. 2025
- Is the morality of same-sex unions an issue Christians can agree to disagree over? After all, Christians differ on consequential issues like the morality of war and capital punishment. Will the church come to accept same-sex unions as it has with divorce? This is one of the most important questions Christians are wrestling with today. Please join Preston Ulmer and me as we go deep on these questions and more.
READ: Deconstruct Faith, Discover Jesus (by Preston Ulmer): amzn.to/3wtM0aD
READ: Set Adrift: Deconstructing What You Believe Without Sinking Your Faith (by Sean McDowell): amzn.to/3Ipe8OM
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Jesus delivered me 7 years ago both from homosexuality and from Islam. Nothing is too difficult for our God 🙏 thank you brother Sean for the great work you are doing sharing the truth with the world 🙏✝️🧡
@fromhollywoodtojesus You can find good health and intimate love if you choose to. Trust me I have. There are plenty of affirming churches out there that would strongly disagree with Sean's interpretation. The common interpretation of the different parts of the bible has been proven wrong so many times through history (slavery, heliocentrism etc. ) that you can't rule out that the common interpretation could just be wrong here too.
Were you engaging in same sex?
Out of the frying pan, into the fryer?
Gay churches are SO tedious tho. It’s all social justice harangues over and over. Ugh
I'm not in the business of slinging mud or just throwing out some defeater comment, but this guy's argument followed to its logical conclusion means that every absolute truth must be held in limbo as long as someone else disagrees (Or if someone ever misused Scripture). We can't just cast out the proper use of Scripture because someone else misused or misunderstood It. By making any argument he refutes himself by functionally doing what he says we should not do. I'm not trying to attack him or his motives. I'm just pointing out the logical fallacy of his position. Sean shows us hear how to stand up for Biblical truth while remaining Christ-like. His heart and spine were both fully engaged. I will be sharing this with my family. The type of argumentation used here against standing on the Word can be difficult to know how to respond to. Sean did a great job here.
Great conclusion
THIS! Thank you for calling out the logical fallacy. It is essentially saying "there is no absolute truth"... well is that an absolute truth?! I also understand how hard it is to toe the line between standing for truth and living lovingly, and I think that is the heart of the issue here. Not knowing how to do that, or learn to do that (which I believe is what we're called to do)
@brotherbarton1148 In my comment I demonstrate a personal bias toward logic and reasoning. I pointed out some logical fallacies in what I said. I think people can have reasonable conversations on the matter, and that is exactly what Sean engaged in. Another personal bias I hold to is that the Bible is the unadulterated Holy Spirit inspired Word of God. If I believe that about the Bible (and I do) then, in order to be consistent and obedient to God, I can't see any way to affirm that which is so clearly taught against by God Himself. No, the Bible is not open to interpretation. There is a correct interpretation and there are incorrect interpretations. The Bible is a revelation to us and God intends for us to obey His Word. Personal intuition does not always align with the Word of God, which is why we must carefully look into the Word for how we are to think and live. We must be willing to set aside what the Bible speaks against, regardless of how we feel about it. Sean stood strong on the Word with his allegiance to Christ being uncompromised. He was also an absolute gentleman, which I point out because many abandon Christ-like behavior in such situations. It's not my place to judge another person's heart or intentions. What I can do is question another's wisdom. According to what is written in the Word of God I question and refute both the logic and the conclusion of the gentleman speaking with Sean. I do so in love. This is a salvation issue. As far as what I've written here, it is not open to interpretation. I mean what I mean and I don't mean what I don't mean. I can comment further if clarification is needed. We can also read further in the Bible when clarification is needed about what is written. That's better than opening the Word of God up to interpretation.(because it's actually not) I appreciate you asking the question. I would rather someone ask than make assumptions. God bless.
@brotherbarton1148 Thanks for your response and for the questions. You set before me some things that take a considerable amount of time to address. I've tried to give an honest and fair response to your questions. I don't address all of them because some go off into a different matter, but maybe we can get to them later. I think it likely that we will be further discussing the matters I speak to here. My intent is to not just give a reason for my view on Biblical authority, but also to explain well enough why I believe my approach to Biblical authority is the only consistent way to logically treat the Word of God in an authoritative sense.
I want to add some clarity to my remarks about interpretation because people mean different things when the word is used for Bible interpretations, languages, and coming to an understanding of something. What I'm not referring to is a dispute about meaning. People can dispute what the meaning of something is, but the actual meaning is not changed by that. There is an actual meaning. The existence of a contrary argument does not negate truth. As I pointed out earlier with the gentleman speaking with Sean, that logic fails because it is self-refuting. No one can say anything with certainty with that logic. What concludes from that is that saying something is open to interpretation (as a matter of certainly)is fallacious.
The word "open" indicates different possibilities. (Maybe you don't mean that, but I do believe that to be what is generally meant when discussing interpretations) In the case of homosexual behavior, the Bible states clearly that those who live that way "will not inherit the Kingdom of God." Gods' moral standards for human sexual behavior are not just mentioned, but God goes so far as to proclaim that those who practice homosexuality won't be spending eternity with Him in His Kingdom. To reject that is to reject God as the Authority on the matter. This is an issue of authority and God is sovereign. To reject what is written in the Bible is to reject the belief that God has spoken authoritatively on the matter, unless one believes God has revealed the truth elsewhere. If He has and the truth differs from what is written in the Bible then the Bible is unreliable. Those who hold the Bible to be the Authoritative Word of God are only consistent when they teach that homosexuality is damnable and not something that God allows in His Kingdom. God has closed the door on homosexuality. In love He has warned of the consequences for such a practice. In love we do the same thing.
You asked about varying Bibles. There are multiple reasons for different translations. That not everyone speaks the same language I think shows a need for the Bible to be translated into different languages. As far as different translations in the same language goes, language actually changes over time and how words are understood changes. Words like cockatrice, peradventure, and filthy lucre were once commonly used (in the KJV), but now are mostly obsolete in our language. There are indeed questionable translations. Sadly, anyone can create a translation. The misuse of Biblical documents (or lack of use) doesn't negate the proper use, and we have access ourselves to the Biblical languages to look for ourselves. There's certainly more to the issue of different translations, but nothing that stands in the way of my position on Biblical authority.
You mentioned authors. I'm assuming you mean authors who have different views. (If I'm wrong then I'd be glad to respond to what you actually mean) I will say again that it does nothing to the truth itself when what the truth is gets debated. The Bible is the only Book I view as authoritative. Just because there are different authors doesn't mean the Author of life can't be trusted. Authors should be directing us to the Bible and be consistent with It. We can learn a lot from good authors, but they are fallible.
You mentioned different sects within Christianity. The same logic applies to this. The question that must be asked is this: Do we throw out the baby with the bathwater? Do we reject the idea of absolute truth because people have disagreements? If we cast off the belief in absolute truth because people think different thoughts about things then we're treating the disagreements of fallible people as an authority for subjective truth. That's fallacious in itself. There is no authority with subjective truth. Either way we're believing in (or assuming) an authority of some kind. The only logical conclusion I can reach is that if God is God and His Word is truth then I must obey Him and not man. Even the idea of obedience implies the possibility of going against Gods' ways. God has made it clear that He is to be obeyed. Faith involves trusting and obeying Him. As to whether or not one trusts Him is a different matter.
I hope I've given an understandable response. I hope you don't mind me asking, but how do you determine whether or not to believe something?
@brotherbarton1148 Before I can answer you I need you to give me your definition for "reality".
If we are not clear in what is and isn't sin, how are we supposed to repent from it? Without repentance there is no salvation. We need a Savior because we need to be saved from something. We need to be saved from our sin. If I don't confess my sin, how am I going to be forgiven? Affirming sin rather than confessing and repenting from it is 100% a salvation issue.
This is such an ignorant take because under this line of thinking not repenting for any action questions your salvation.
@@anaguaba1791When the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit let me know that I'm in sin, I have a decision to make. If I am living in sin, practicing sin, willingly making it a habit or even worse, my identity, and I don't repent from it, I don't even agree with the Word of God that I'm in rebellion against Him, 100% my unrepentant heart is a sign that I am not saved.
@anaguaba1791 I get the impression from this reply that you assume repenting from sin is simply saying sorry for each individual sin or something. As if you forgetting about repenting for one of them is somehow condemning you.
Repentance is not saying sorry for an action. It is changing your heart to align with what the Holy Spirit requires of you. Repentance is not something you can do properly on your own, but through the action of the Holy Spirit you can change your ways to his. Salvation doesn't mean being perfect, seeing as even by Jesus words, "No one is good but God alone". Rather Salvation is a free gift through the grace of God for those that choose to follow him and put their trust in him. To trust someone wholeheartedly, you listen to what they say and you to the best of your ability try to follow that. That trust is what faith is. If you say you trust him but you don't try to follow his ways, then it is proof that you don't trust him wholeheartedly.
Everyone falls short, everyone is prone to at least some sin. Some worse than others, but all are in opposition to God. Alcoholism, Anger, Hatred, Sexual Immorality of all kinds, greed, lying, stealing, putting something in your life in God's place. Worst of all is pride. These are all things that require change, no one is innocent of all of these sins. That is why Repentance is what a Christian should strive for to be truly faithful to God.
I'm unclear on your comment. If you're saying all sins are equal, I disagree. God rejects all sin, but only sexual deviation led to fire & brimstone on a city. God's punishment made His view crystal clear.
Actually Romans 10:9-10 is salvation. So I wouldn’t think unrepentant sin sends you to hell but you will be judged for it. How can you boldly walk in the sin of your flesh and defend/justify it to God? Like someone else said, it’s one thing to be tempted but to refuse to surrender is something entirely different.
Dr McDowell, get Beckett Cook on your podcast. He has an incredible testimony....he does the Beckett Cook Show....ex homosexual man, working and living in Hollywood for years!
What an incredible man and beautiful soul! He would debunk this WHOLE conversation!! We need people like him in the church 👌🏼🙏🏻🇿🇦
I love Becket.
Agreed
100 % agree!
"ex homosexual"?? You people support that??
@@radscorpion8just because one does not express their homosexuality, and suppressing, does not mean that it does not exist.
The ability of Sean to remain calm and measured in the face of slippery logic is impressive.
I couldn't agree more.
Jesus said to the woman who was caught in adultery
"Go and sin NO MORE". Wouldn't he say that to homosexual relationships the same thing, Go and sin NO more? The bible is very clear that men laying with men, women laying with women are sinning and need to be corrected in that. Look up every scripture.
You got it.
@brotherbarton1148
There’s not cherry picking when they are sticking with the particular sin being discussed.
Mosaic law defines sin-
Even the New Testament is clear; sin is lawlessness.
Christ loves us while we are yet sinners but calls us to repent, die to our flesh, and pick up our cross and follow Him, even unto death.
We confess our sin, repent/change- not affirm, not celebrate a commitment to the sin.
@brotherbarton1148 Christ did not come to "teach a new way". Everything He taught came straight from the Torah. When Christ said "but I say to you", He was revealing the spiritual intent behind God's commandments. He was not refuting Moses, nor was He was saying Moses didn't truly understand God's laws. He was telling the Jews that it wasn't enough to just live by the letter of the law. God's laws define true love. Read 1 Jhn 5:3!
Totally agree
The Satanic Bible might be more morally in accord with their preferences.
a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Today's culture is so lost, its beyond sad. Never have I seen such shameless mental gymnastics to justify sin. God help me if I ever do the same!
Truth!!! That's what's been happening.... it's like divorce, the church makes it "easier" on Christians to divorce....not biblical.
@brotherbarton1148I’m sure we all do to some extent but reasonable folk draw the lines somewhere
I have done wrong and have to be forgiven but God does make some things clear wrong,we need to repent of our sins
@brotherbarton1148 God says where the line is
And while it’s absolutely none of your business, no I’ve not engaged in sodomy and ive repented of the sexual sin ive committed other that
The culture is lost. Not because people are gay, but because people do not follow the golden rules. You bring up Leaven bread but fail to remember that the people he was talking about were the over rigid religious leaders who were putting heavy burdens and heavy yolks upon the common people. You strain out a gnat, but you swallowed a camel.
How does just being gay violate the golden rule?
Sean, I deeply appreciate that you're having these difficult conversations. When I came back to faith after 12 years I initially embraced the affirming view and was so glad to have found a way of interpreting (twisting) the Bible so that I could continue comfortably following the culture around me. However it was mainly these honest and respectful conversations you've had with people who have a different stance than you do that have convicted me eventually. I still learn a lot from the way you engage in these conversations with loving pushback. Thank you!
Awesome to hear!
Can you faithfully follow Jesus and affirm adultery? Can you faithfully follow Jesus and affirm porn? Can you faithfully follow Jesus and affirm fornication? Can you faithfully follow Jesus and affirm literally any other form of sexual immorality?
The only reason anyone feels the need for nuance on this subject is because of cultural pressure. Biblical truth does not bend to culture.
Facts
❤
Every sunday, parishioners gather together wearing fabrics made of different fabrics. Is this not " living in sin"? And churches regularly marry people for the second and third time when the reason for the divorce was not adultery, this is considered to be committing adultery. So, is the church not " condoning sin" ? Further, the outward expression of inward sexual desire is not what defines one's sexuality, but, rather, the inward desire, or fundamental orientation itself, and that orientation is not chosen, neither is it a lifestyle. The reason that we never hear the term " heterosexual lifestyle " is because there is no need to categorize heterosexuality with such descriptively inherent connotative oversimplification in order to subconsciously justify contempt and hatred through subjective ( and, therefore, contextually unfair and invalid) comparison.
Absolute facts right here
The church protects pedos from the law, so yes, you do
The bible is 100% clear on this.
Yes, sexual relationships is best avoided.
The Bible is very clear about divorce too. But churches ignore Jesus' teaching in this regard.
@@russellmiles2861 I live celibate myself :)
I stay away from divorced woman also:)
@@Jabba2702 I live with a married woman ... She is wonderful. My adult sons and her get on very well. Then again my children have got on well with the various woman in my life.
@@russellmiles2861 but she id married to you ?
The 2 issues of sexual immorality and idolatry according to historic biblical Christian theology have never been 'agree to disagree' issues but are clearly biblical salvation issues
Marriage after divorce, pre-marital sex, sexual relationships in about almost all circumstances are sinful.
So why are you are focused on one for of sexual behaviour and do not discuss other matters.
@@russellmiles2861key word in his comment. “SALVATION” issue. Not just sin. Jesus also spoke on divorce and remarriage. It’s justified under marital unfaithfulness. You can’t just leave your wife just because. Any one who leaves due to “irreconcilable differences” are adulterous . And any same sex who calls themselves married are fornicators. The only way to rectify is repentance. Part of repentance is turning away from that choice and no longer living in that choice
@@ceelothatmane9421 I have to disagree: the speakers here are selectively picking out some text about same sex relationships while rejecting Jesus teaching on sexual relationships. The key word is Hypocrisy.
@@russellmiles2861 None of these issues you bring up are areas that we should agree to disagree about either. And lots of churches don't. We have men in our church who are (inappropriately) divorced and remarried. They're barred from deaconship because of it. They accept it, because we abide by the Biblical outline of deaconship.
(inappropriate, in that they divorced over issues outside of sexual infidelity)
@@BM-si2ei correct me if I am wrong: your church would deal with folk in a same sex relationships a tad different than "baring them from deaconship". The couples who have remained would seem to be unrepentant sinners and still embraced by your church communion (I wouldn't image you do any less). I am more wondering why you don't bless same sex marriages, welcome such folk and perhaps say they can't hold certain leadership positions.
When it comes to the alphabet people and Christianity, we are asking the wrong question. It should be, "Can you still be a Christian if you CELEBRATE your sin?".
Even as Christians, we ALL sin, and we try to do better, but do we consider ANY of our sins, to be "good", "natural", "born this way"...are you PROUD to be a sinner and have no inclination to stop, or at least ask for forgiveness when you do sin? Do we welcome the THIEF who repents of his crime and pays restitution, or the thief who tries to convince you that it is ACCEPTABLE? I don't even understand why this is a struggle with Christians today. Does the Church no longer have a SPINE?
Asked and answered, brother.
The church is lowercase now and unfortunately has no spine.💔💔💔💯💯💯💯🙏🏽🙏🏽. This is the era and time for the True Followers of The Way Jesus Christ to stand up and step up.💯💯💯💯🙏🏽💯💯. I wish I was joking but this is a terrible truth.
God bless you for teaching Biblical truth.
Can you be a Christian and judge, pontificate and moralise about other people's lives? ❤
@brotherbarton1148 Sin is anything we think ,say , and or do that does not please God. So since God did give us freedom of choice, sin is a choice that we have. The consequences of it are still being separated from God. God did not literally say okay I’m creating sin. He simply said what the action of doing opposite of His will is. Sin.💯
I think a major point was briefly glossed over and practically ignored: a man or woman cannot be actively involved in a same-sex relationship, no matter how loving and faithful they may be and also be a faithful follower of Jesus. That said, no man can know another's heart, and cannot determine what their spiritual condition may be. It is, however, our responsibility to hold our brothers and sisters in Christ accountable, and the Church's responsibility to conduct appropriate church discipline in the case of unrepentant sin.
Jesus said you will know by their fruit so we can know their level of commitment to God. If you have bad (sinful) fruit, you are a bad tree because Jesus said a good tree gives good fruit in a bad tree Bears Bad fruit and a good tree cannot bear bad fruit in a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. These are the many reasons why they try to redefine what is sinful Behavior because they do not want to die to self and follow Christ. Unfortunately the best news that they could hear is that if they lay this at Christ's feet and repent of their sinful ways that they can to be redeemed. But if they are mislead to believe that their lifestyle is perfectly okay and not simple then they'll never repent of those sins and they can never be led back to Christ. And I'm not saying I'm not sinful I'm just not sinful in that way and I do repent of my sin and recognize it for what it is sinful behavior that I try not to do
I see it as the path for any human is very visible and knowable to God. Anyone I meet, I am seeing them in the present moment and know nothing about their past or their path leading up to this point in time. Now even if the person tells me their entire life story it will be viewed through the prisms of humans making reasons and excuses that may or may not be true. God sees the entire path with absolute clarity and knows the true intents for all of that humans actions, thoughts, and outcome. The reason why this is important is the human soul is dealing with eternity. If a person is on the path to absolute evil but is not even close in the present, that is very visible to God and any being that allows absolute evil to come to fruition can not be termed good in any sense of the word. Plus also understand that humans are caught in the stream of time while God does not have that limitation and already knows the final destination of that soul or that person being discussed.
@@johnanderson9403 That was in a passage regarding false teachers, not regular everyday believers.
The fruit of repentance . That’s how you know
@@davidsandrock7826so a prophet is not only a mouthpiece of God but a professor of faith can also be what prophet means. Therefore anyone who professes Christ can be known by their fruit.
There was a lot of talk about grace in this conversation. Grace not only saves, but Grace transforms. God’s love is a transformative and purifying love. It doesn’t leave one the same. Grace trains us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passion. So please Preston tell me how someone can receive this grace and still hold an interpretation of scripture that defies this transformational reality?
Those who are in Christ are a new Creation, the old has past away the new has come. A person who identifies with their sin and not the New Life in Jesus Christ cannot be a true follower of Christ.
AMEN
@brotherbarton1148 he's talking about identifying. We identify with christ and have salvation. When we fail or mess up we recognize what we're doing and we've done is wrong. Not justifying our wrong doing or our failing to follow the Lord. We then repent and try to do better.
@brotherbarton1148 Obviously no one. But it's one thing to be struggling with sin and occasionally fall, but it's another thing to abandon the battle and let sin be the norm in your life.
Well, there is the factor of allowing people time to learn what that new life is, of allowing time for growing in the knowledge of Jesus. Some people go thru immediate radical change and with others it takes time to learn and repent. The truth is we are all in that process of repenting of something and being changed. It seems a presumption to be deciding who is and who is not a 'true' follower of Christ. Don't forget about those who cast out demons in His name and He said he never new them.
So does that mean that after you become saved you never ever engage in any of the sins you committed before your salvation??
Praise God! You discussed this issue. Sean be blessed for standing with the scripture and you were making your cases from the scripture. We learnt a lot from you guys keep it up.
As a local pastor who uses these videos (with your permission) as a resource for church discussion; training, and equipping. I think it was a great discussion on a very important topic. The ability to parse some of these thoughts in real time with a genuine care to be faithful to scripture; the gospel; the church and to the audience and guest really came through. I appreciate you guys pushing back with biblical resources, thoughts and cultural references… In real time it mirrored many discussions we all have with other believers who are navigating these topics, but with cultural bias, and various perspectives. I appreciated how you kept coming back to the truth of scripture. One scripture I think could have been relevant, especially towards the end was Jesus and the rich young ruler, it says Jesus loved him and pointed out the issue that was hindering the young man. Jesus gave a clear invitation to choose riches or relationship with Jesus it says the man went away sad. I think this is an important model for us as Christians who genuinely care and love the people were talking to who we are concerned about something that may be undermining their relationship with Jesus. Our job is to love them enough to tell them the truth, and then allow them to make the decision, and then trust God to work through that process. Thank you again for another excellent discussion. I look forward to sharing this with my church.
So well said!
@brotherbarton1148 thank you for your question but I am not sure it was very clear. You seem to be taking homosexuality at step further than the Bible. I agree that sexuality is a natural desire. We are born with a sex drive. However anger is a natural desire as well. It can be used in a good way to protect and even preserve life. However when anger is left uncontrolled or unchecked we would all say that is irresponsible. Someone can’t punch you in the face and just God made me angry, it’s natural, God loves me so I don’t have to put any limits on my anger. We would agree this would be an absurd statement. The same way someone claim that they feel these desires are natural do not sanctify them or make them holy. We often restrain natural desires, lust is an over-desire not just for bad things but it can be good things. Choosing to follow Christ means that I first I am responding to the his grace to meet me where I am at whatever my sin struggle. Second in response to His love and the power of His Spirit I can now walk in freedom saying no to sinful patterns and lies. I don’t do this for salvation… but as fruit of salvation. Just as once I am in a marriage I willingly deny other people and relationships because of the value of the relationship I am in now. Someone who says I want to follow Christ and live a homosexual lifestyle is wanting to serve two masters. The question isn’t Jesus love for them it’s their love for Jesus? The issue is do they love Jesus more than the sin that is holding them back. Homosexuality, heterosexuality, anger, un-forgiveness. This becomes really clear with Corinthians in chapter 6 with the list of who will not inherit the kingdom- and then the wonderful verse and such were some of you, but you were washed, cleansed, sanctified, justified. The Gospel message was clearly preached in a sexually broken and indulgent culture like Corinth, but the gospel wasn’t accepted Jesus and keep doing what you are doing. It was accepted Jesus, and walk as a new creation. Like a cripple walking or blind seeing; those enslaved in the bondage of besetting sin can experience wholeness and newness. The “Christian” who says I want Jesus and my sin is undermining the cross & resurrection, because Jesus blood freed us and His resurrection empowers us. John 8, neither do I condemn you… go and sin no more;
exactly! 💯
@@CalvaryChapelofFullerton Sodomy is an abomination, unnatural and idolatry of self.
@brotherbarton1148 it seems your issue is with the Bible not me. I would gather your biggest problem is with the word “sin” you seem to see that as a negative or derogatory term. Yes in a legal sense sin results in consequences. However sin is all the idea of, missing the mark, or settling for less. It is an also a designation of misunderstanding or dismissing the healthy design or desire. For example running a red light would be a sin; I am doing something contrary to its purpose. However it also unloving to myself and anyone else as the red light is there for my safety and everyone else safety. If I justify why I need to run the red light, it doesn’t matter my reason it is still unsafe and unloving to do so. God’s law is rooted in his love. Putting a fork in the light socket would be sin as it involves the improper use of something that could destroy or hurt you. All of Gods design around boundaries of sexual sin aren’t there to keep something from you (the lie since the garden of Eden) but they are there to keep you from the pain of death and destruction. When you say homo-sexuality is not a sin you are saying you are free to run through the red light and stop lights of society regardless of the consequences just because you feel you are justified. This doesn’t work in our society and it doesn’t work in God’s society either. Your issues isn’t with me but God’s loving design. If you looked through the lens of truth you would see although the lie of sin seems appealing and that I will make you “like God” it will fulfill your deepest longings, it will ultimately leave you broken and running from God. Sin destroys and destroys our relationship with our Creator and His creation. It never satisfies it enslaves. However just as God came walking after Adam & Eve the story of the Gospel is that Jesus comes in to our guilt and shame; He allows us to confront our sin and He offers the righteous of His death on the cross as sufficient payment for the guilt and brokenness of our sin. He doesn’t just say not guilty, He says paid in full. Telling someone they can continue in sin as a Christian cheapens the blood of Jesus. Being a Christian doesn’t mean that I will never sin again but my relationship to sin has changed I am no longer a slave, I am not defined by sin, I am now in the process of sanctification, living in the light of my Justification and ultimate glorification. Sin is not a bad word, it is a loving word. It is there to protect and equip us to experience life to the fullest. Someone who would say I am homo-sexual Christian is placing there sexuality over their identity in Christ; Jesus is not Lord of their life; this is different than someone saying I was a homosexual saved by Jesus. I still struggle with crucifying my fleshly desires but I am a new creation in Christ. You cannot serve both masters, you have to make a choice? Again it is not a question of how much Jesus loves this person but how much this person loves Jesus. Jesus loves them enough to see clear boundaries. These red lights and drops signs are there because He loves us. Hopefully this helps
Absolutely not! No compromise with this World!
So does men having long hair
@@clay8546 where did you get that crackpot idea?
@@paulan7218Paul writes about how it is unnatural for a man to have long hair. (Probably referring to the length women wore it back then)
@@Picnickrh he's writing as a roman. His argument is from. Nature, where as in the old testimemt there is a whole vow of having long hair. I don't think you understand what you are talking about in this instance.
@@paulan7218 Corinthians 11:14
14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering
While I appreciate the dialogue, and Preston trying to offer grace on this subject, this is an example of how sin enters the church. We try to soften sin and its consequence in our efforts to be loving. But I agree with Sean that the Bible is very clear on this issue and it IS related to salvation. I wish I could take a different stance on this issue as homosexuality and transgenderism is within my family. But as Sean said, we do our brothers and sisters a disservice by allowing them to think it's ok, even if it is within the confines of a committed relationship. Homosexuality is a sin regardless of the commitment between the participants, and no amount of trying to "allow for their point of view" is going to change that. Thank you for bringing this conversation to the forefront so that we can be prepared to address it.
46:10 -How can Mr Preston say this? How can a person decide to live contrary to God's clearly expressed will (basically live in sin) and claim to be a faithful follower of Christ? I applaud Sean for his patience and this is clearly setting an example for me when engaging in a discussion with someone who holds a different view than I do. Well done Sean, God bless you for all your work ❤
I would have a hard time having such a polite conversation with a false teacher....
under his eye.
@@tranny5 this is wild. Lol
I am having a hard time just listening. One who will read plain scripture against homosexual behavior and call it open to interpretation?
I can't debate. It's a matter of do I believe THE WORD of God?
@@heidibrown997: Agreed!
I totally agree; as Christians we must take care what we entertain. Ulmer is well meaning, but has a very worldly view of the scriptures.
Sean, thank you for talking through this. It really is an encouragement to see you have a civil conversation with someone who you disagree with. At the same time do not compromise your stance on what you believe. Thank you brother!
Truly blessed by your ministry.
Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
NO , NOPE , NEVER. ITS NOT A QUESTION.
Yet christians do it all the time. Their faith appears flexible enough. After all, the only thing that matters is believing in the resurrection right??
@@proletariatpashka1956 no. You believe in your heart and confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord. To belive in the lord and be born again is to forsake your old way and follow Jesus. You may fail, you will fail, but it is in christ whom you trust. You still must put effort into stopping the sin which as a follower of christ you can do.
Dang bro...
@@proletariatpashka1956and not the crucifixion?
@proletariatpashka1956 Satan believes the resurrection happened.
Very helpful and important conversation. I’m always so encouraged by how Sean interacts with his guests regardless of disagreements. It’s a role model for all of us all and I’m so thankful to God for this channel. I think the communication / diplomacy / charity / respect / clarity / honesty / faithfulness to God’s Word are the key words that come to my mind after listening to this. Re this topic - I stand on Sean’s side and I think this subject should be discussed from theological , psychological point of view more.
We judge by a fruit. Affirming someone with a sin bring so much danger to the person and leads them away from God.
I totally agree with you, Sean!!!
Hi Preston, I'm black and I'm gay. Your views are cloudy. It takes a lot to understand and examine the added complexity. On all these issues, gun control, gay marriage, and slavery, you don't appear to be clear on what IS and ISN"T right about these issues and because you don't feel you are clear you think these issues are all similar.
Regarding slavery, a Christian can be AFFIRMING. It is not whether a person is a slave or NOT. It's HOW THE HUMAN BEING, the SLAVE, is treated. That is what is important to Christian ethics. We are all slaves to something. Slavery is an issue of HOW MUCH FREEDOM a person has. Jail limits freedom as well, but it is not wrong. Its uncomfortable to not be free, but it is not wrong. Its certainly is not ideal. A child has about as much freedom as a slave. We don't call that immoral. Poverty also limits a person's freedom just in a different way. American slavery allowed owners to kill, maim, and beat their slaves on a whim. That is totally different. What they did to humans would be inhumane for animals. So is a slave owner who unrepentantly beats his slaves mercilessly, maims them, or kills them a Christian? NO! Just like a fine married Christian with a woman on the side is not. (Sean makes a good point about kidnapping as the reason they are IN slavery which makes the whole thing wrong. But the institution is not completely immoral if the people are treated humanely.)
The problem is using flawed theories to justify other wrongdoings. I don't think there is a just war. 1 John 3:10-18 condemns hating and killing your brother. Matthew 5:38-48 says how we are to deal with our enemies. This same hard teaching is seen in the life of Jacob when they kept claiming the wells he dug. While I agree that a Christian can defend himself, life should be taken ONLY as a last option. A "Christian" who joins the military is not a Christian and this is seen as Sean already pointed out in the first 300 years of Christian history. (In practice NO Christian, or its Church, in the military consults with other Christians to DETERMINE if a war is a "just" war BEFORE engaging. It doesn't happen. Patriarch Kirill of Moscow said the Ukrainian war is fratricide and they are still fighting it.)
Preston, you are AFFIRMING BRO!
Romans 1:32 puts you outside Christianity. It says: "Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them." While you might disagree that this Scripture applies to you, you are using loopholes to justify your position. I'm gay. I study these things. I'm not convinced.
Finallly, 1 Co 6:9 clearly warns: "DO NOT BE MISLED!" That is what very scary about your position. How is that hard to understand? It implies someone will try to mislead you on this issue. ITS a STRONG WARNING and you are not heeding it. I'm gay. its hard. But I'm a CHristian. you are not. (I'm not being mean. I'm being clear.) Also your man-made hermeneutic is flawed. I understand you, but its wrong.
A married man who is a perfectly good Christian with a woman on the side, who justifies it, is still not a Christian. His personal salvation, i can't judge. But he is not a Christian.
Your identity should be in Christ, not in your sinful lusts. We all suffer with this in various ways. Praying for you brother.
@@mileage_master I certainly agree with you. Who says my identity is not in Christ? If you say I am tall, is your identity in your height? Words are just common descriptors everyone understands. I don't identify as gay. But Paul, after becoming a Christian, said I am a Pharisee. He simply spoke in a way people could identify with. Paul also said: "I became all things to everyone so that I might in fact gain some." So I use the words "black" and "gay" when i think it is appropriate. they are not my identity just like while BLACK I'm not afro-centric.
@@kstevenson3504 what that person also creates more of the division that exists. Like if you’re gay, that’s automatically your identity even though they complain about the same exact thing when someone that’s gay participates in Pride.
I agree with you Sean. Heaven is God's home. We want to share salvation to the lost, and spread God's love. But we cannot lie. That is what the Bible says. Tell the truth. It hurts, but that is the truth.
Immanuel!❤
the truth only hurts the guilty.
@@fayewood1377 for us the truth set us free, and bring abundance joy.🙏❤️🎊
@@fayewood1377 under his eye!
Heaven is not Gods home- it’s simply a manifestation of who He is - as in His personification
When He said that in His house are many mansions He’s actually saying that each of His children who grow up in Him as stated in Ephesians corporately become the ‘New Jerusalem ‘ that comes down from ...
People are forgetting that the heavens are contaminated with the rebellion of Satan and the angels that followed no less than the earth became the world and reflects that devastation- where Satan accuses His to Him
All things must be restored so then it’s not only people who pass away yet everything
the truth only hurts the guilty.
Sean your recall of the scriptures is phenomenal…..praising God for you….this was hard to listen to at times but definitely worth the hour plus. Loved your interview with Rosario Butterfield awhile back as well.
Matthew 7:13-14 ESV
[13] “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. [14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
There is an individual very dear to my heart, who, through a series of events, was wooed to salvation by the Holy Spirit. She had been in the homosexual lifestyle for many years. Upon becoming a Christ follower one of the first things she asked the Lord was “Can I continue in my current lifestyle?“. She told me that the Lord immediately answered her in her spirit, one word. “No.” She told me that it took her a bit to get over her anger at God but she did, knowing that He desired her obedience, that this was the path of righteousness. It is because of her testimony that I know more than ever that the Holy Spirit does work in the lives of those who truly come to Him, especially when it comes to sin. He will convict. He will give strength to true believers to do what needs to be done in order to obey Him.
I just want to thank you for sharing these podcasts! I appreciate the content & the manner in which they are presented!! God is blessing me through you!
I agree. That's something that amazes me about Christopher Yuan's and Jackie Hill's testimonies... they were both shown by the Holy Spirit very clearly that homosexuality is wrong. Christopher Yuan was given a book written by a revisionist, just after he surrendered his life to Jesus, but he just knew that the book's arguments were not right.
Great job Sean. Really appreciate how you show so much humility and kindness as you push back and hold to the truth of God’s word. I pray Preston gains wisdom and understanding so he can use his gift to bring glory to God versus allowing the evil one to use him to lead others a stray.
Yes,yes,yes. Sean is awesome, he always approaches these tough debates with grace, humility and wisdom. I also will pray that God moves in Preston life so he sees truth of God’s word and not the world he apparently is listening to.
A difference between divorce and gay marriage. Good point, one is about failure in marriage versus a redefinition of marriage.
Good one.
Divorce has much more facets in Hebraic law, that are not discussed in Mosaic, but Paul eludes to in the New Testament. It’s not as cut and dried as mainstream evangelicals think.
right and calling good evil and evil good
@Musick79 I've been interested in learning more about circumstances in which divorce is not a sin. Do you know of any resource that goes into this besides the bible?
Under the Christian arrangement and understanding of marriage. A marriage may be dissolved under state law but remains in force under Christian law except on the grounds of fornication. Getting legally divorced does not nullify the Covenant made with God. So you end up with two ( presumably believers) living apart, waiting for the other to sin so that they may remarry and remain in a good relationship with God. Work on your marriages.
This is different by magnitudes from willfully practicing sin and demanding that God bow to your wishes and accept your sin.
Amen Sean regarding the Church caving into culture. I would argue that the Gay Theology hermeneutic is empowered and consistent with a postmodernist perspective and worldview. In my humble opinion, I heard some of this coming in during this dialogue. We do need to get back to what Jesus taught as you stated. I understand the criticality of context in a historical-grammatical hermeneutic, and the nuances that this entails. What has concerned me for a very long time, is that the church is changing to be more pragmatic and accepting to win people to Christ, but if there is not a standard and Biblical truth that is the foundation, regarding salvation and the plain teachings of Scripture, the theological ship has indeed run aground on the rocky crags of postmodernism and pragmatism.
Christ calls all of us, if we truly follow Him, to DENY ourselves, take up the cross and offer up ourselves as living sacrifices. For that, Christ says that our lives, in that respect, won't be easy. But the rewards are immeasurable and everlasting.
The "church" has been sodomite all along. Come out of her. Rev 18.4
Category issues/errors are truly what this interview bore. Sean is right- it is a salvific issue, and the other guy keeps wanting to put it in the same category as war and other tertiary issues.
According to Jesus war isn't a tertiary issue. He disagrees with the OT there. His whole life is about passive resistance.
@@merg-vh5sxYep. Cherry picking as always. That part is not convienet so let's reinterpret what Jesus says about these things. You wanna talk about something He is clear on... Wealth is another thing. It's so funny to me. This is why I can't take fundamentalists seriously.
@@westleybenson1188 Huh? I think you mean he was also against the accumulation of wealth? Yes he was if that's what you were getting at. I've never met a fundamentalist who belived Jesus was anti-war but I wish I had. You know the good ones!
@@merg-vh5sx I wasn't very clear lol. I am saying that the original poster is cherry picking from the scriptures by calling war a tertiary issue. It's not. Passive nonviolence is absolutely in line with what Jesus taught. There can't be the slightest doubt about it. Anyone who says otherwise is disagreeing with Jesus and putting different words into his mouth other than what is reported that he said in the gospels. But fundamentalists do this all the time. They go through the scriptures and tell it what it is allowed to say and not allowed to say. They reinterpret passages in a way that is convient for them and oppressive of other people. Of course there is no way to avoid doing this because the scriptures aren't univocal in the first place.
@@westleybenson1188 Thanks for clarifying. We're on the same page there, then.
There is a difference between loving a sinner and affirming the sin.
I completely agree with Sean. I came to Christ and was same sex attracted and sometimes practicing same sex relation actions. Reading the Bible completely convicted me of this as a sin and no matter how lonely I was or the facts of my attraction changes the absoluteness that it is a sin, a salvation sin. One has to ask themselves two things: what do you think Jesus meant when he said, pick up your cross and follow me, and are you living for this life or the next. My answers were very clear and with prayer and discipline my desires and actions have been completely changed. I also do not cuss, drink, covet, be greedy, lie or any of the other sins listed as salvation issues.
"agree to disagree" is a silly thing to say. I agree THAT we disagree. Chesterton basically pointed out that it essentially equates to "I don't care what you think, I will ignore it ".
Thank you both for having a respectful conversation.
Prayers for Oreston Ulmer to come to salvation and right relationship with God. It's so disturbing to listen to his reasoning and lack of true faith in the Word which is Jesus
It is very scary. And honestly I wanted Sean to look him in the eye and say "I don't know what's in your heart. But your affirming of this sin is outside of the kingdom of God, and if people continue in that they would go to hell, because if they don't think what they are doing as wrong they cannot repent. They will die. And they will not have salvation, and as a teacher you are held more responsible. "
Without repentance against sin there is no salvation, and reconciliation to God, through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Thank you Sean. You are faithful to the truth of God's Word and were very loving and patient with Preston throughout the discussion. I was sorry to hear Preston wobbling on scripture as the basis of his teaching and counseling with homosexual couples. John 8:32 "And you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free". I believe he is a the victim of the culture and uses his version of hermeneutics to make excuses for those who desperately need God's truth which is able to bring them to repentance and freedom from sinful strongholds.
100% agree with Sean. Interesting discussion but at the end of the day the Bible is very clear on Marriage.
Whilst Preston tries to draw comparisons with views on gun control, military, slavery a better comparison (from a biblical perspective) would be any form of adultery. As Sean says this is not a trivial matter but a very serious eternally salvific one, if it leads people to deliberately choose a homosexual lifestyle as a result of others teaching, endorsement, and encouragement of sin.
Exactly
One of the best debates on this topic I have seen. Very civil and respectful. And addressed many questions the church will have face and is facing. Being in the UMC church, this is what we are facing. Honestly, I'm with Sean on the topic so I loved the grace and respect he showed. And really answered many questions that are frequently brought up. One thing that is important is just because one believes the scriptures and traditional marriage doesn't mean they don't show love to those who oppose it.
I wonder if God will discuss sodomy at the Judgement with those who indulged in it.
Preston's closing is a good one, and something we should keep in mind. Sean's stance in the debate is unassailable and Preston's attempts to counter the position fall flat, as Sean does well to point out. In Sean's summary he claims the church is headed away from his position. This is part of the prophesied apostasy, a slippery slope away from God and Jesus' narrow way. Itching ears will amass teachers who will justify any and all departures from sound doctrine. Discerning the narrow way and abiding in Him is the best we can hope for, all the while embracing those who find salvation through Christ regardless of their pre-salvation condition.
When it comes to sodomy and abortion, there is no debate.
Exactly! As in the days of Noah….As in the days of Lot
@@Yeshuailove Yes, business as usual, peace and security and then ... sudden destruction
Loved this conversation. I’m thankful Preston was willing to come on board and have this discussion. I’m thankful to Sean for being so faithful and well trained in Scripture. It seems that Preston doesn’t understand the severity of homosexuality as stated in Scripture. Like Sean said, this is salvation related, which would put it as certainly not a “agree to disagree” issue. We need to lovingly, graciously, and respectfully be honest with people. Thank you, Sean!
The Great White Throne Judgement will open everybody´s eyes to the "love" of God.
Why is this even an issue? The biblical answer is "No".
@brotherbarton1148 Apples and Oranges, dude. Forbidding shellfish and mixed fabrics were culture laws, not repeated in the New Testament. Forbidding homosexuality is a moral law that is repeated in the New Testament.
@brotherbarton1148 It doesn't matter what my interpretation of love and lust is about. The Scripture is clear in both testaments that God designed marriage to be between one man and one woman, not between two people of the same gender. The Scripture is also clear in both testaments that sexual relations between two people of the same gender is considered as sinful in God's eyes.
@brotherbarton1148 First off, if you're asking if I still have both of my eyes and hands, the answer is "Yes, I do". What is the underlying message of that passage? Mutilate your body in the name of holiness? Or remove yourself from that which tempts you to sin? The latter seems to be more in accordance with the teachings of Jesus, which is what I try to follow. I try to discipline my mind and thoughts to try and avoid temptations. Granted, I don't always succeed, but that doesn't stop me from trying.
Second, I'm not sure what you mean by "my love" and "my lust". Biblically speaking, there are different types of love. The Christian example of love spoken throughout most of the New Testament is a giving and sacrificial type of love. It's a love that gives without any thought to reward or recognition. There is also a sexual type of love, which God intended to be between a husband and his wife, but it gets perverted and twisted into all forms of sexually deviant acts that people claim is "loving". The Bible calls it "fornication". There is also a type of love shared between two close friends, a love that goes deeper than simple friendship. Finally, there's the love that families have for one another. An example of this is the type of love a child has for his or her mommy for the simple reason that she's mommy, and it's the same type of love that mothers will have for their children in return.
Now, as a Christian, the type of love I try to display is the Christian type of love. I also have close friends who I have a close friendship-type of love with. I am not married, nor dating anyone at the moment, which means I try to control the sexual type of love so that I don't pervert it into something ungodly. Finally, since I am not married, I don't have any children. Also, my parents have already passed away, and the closest relative I have is an Aunt and Uncle who lives 2 hours away, but I don't see them as often as I'd like. Now, how is all that different than everyone else? I don't have the slightest clue. I'm not everyone else and don't know their views on the issue.
As for lust, that is a perversion of love, which I try hard to keep under control. That simple concept of controlling our desires and lusts seems to be taboo these days. Maybe if more people practiced a little self-discipline, then maybe we wouldn't get 98 minute youtube videos on this topic.
@brotherbarton1148 Yes, God did create us. He also created with purpose. His intent for sexual love was for it to be expressed between a man and his wife, not to be shared with multiple people, displayed all over, and especially not with people of the same gender. If it is outside of God's intended purpose, it is contrary to God's will and sinful. That's the bottom line.
@brotherbarton1148 Just because they express it the same doesn't make it moral. I'm not the moral arbiter of the Universe, God is. All I can do is live as his word describes, and try to teach others the same. If they reject it and go their own way, it's not me who they will answer to, but God.
So appreciated the discussion. I feel scripture is clear on all sexual immorality including homosexuality to be sinful. And it is a salvation issue. Along with the other sins that are mentioned.
I think what may have been missing from this conversation is well maybe instead of framing it as can a “good Christian have these views”- the discussion seemed to center on that instead of the process where someone in sexual sin can in time with Gods grace and forgiveness, repent (change their thinking then actions) and in a God centered environment- for those familiar with celebrate recovery- learn how to apply healing and truth of the bible in their lives. Ive heard and met so many who have experienced this change and that’s what is amazing to me about God. The process is sometimes quick and other times it can take years but this process/struggle to let old ways die is very much a part of the Christian walk that doesn’t get spoken of.
Exactly, those struggling to come out of LGBT may have instant or a life's long process. Even Paul did things he didn't want to do, so 8t happens and when it does trust in Christ, repent and keep trying to resist
@@tristank8076 If a sodomite were truly "struggling" to deny his unnatural urges and he asked the Almighty Creator God to help him, He would. Sodomites do not want to conform to the image of God, they want both mankind and God to assent them conforming to the image of the beast.
Preston Ulmer…it seems like his line of reasoning is a slippery slope. Appreciated this conversation & agree with those who say how difficult it is to have this intensely difficult discussion in such a civil way. Thank you Sean.
Absolutely you can. I find it tough to reconcile the fact that the modern day church makes every allowance for other things related to God and gender but not this: divorce, remarriage, absence of proper hair styles, head coverings, allowing jewelry and the list goes on. If you read those passages with the same stringency that people do with the so-called “antigay passages” the American church would not get away with half the stuff it does.
In 2008, I was a gay-identified man, in a committed, monogamous same-sex relationship, active in an affirming church, then found myself in an ICU where the medical team declared me clinically dead after a 22-minute flatline. I experienced death, judgement and hell. When I couldn’t take any more demonic torment, I cried out in repentance, “Jesus!” and I heard the Savior say, “I am here.” At that moment, I saw with my eyes the Wind of the Holy Spirit fill my ICU and with great power, He pick up Satan and the demonic and blew them out of the room. On that day, my life changed, the redemptive Blood of Jesus cleared my mind, and completely healed and restored every failing organ. Glory to God!
Wow! THAT is a remarkable testimony! Hallelujah!
@@jimmock1155 brother, thank you for your encouragement in Christ Jesus. All glory to His Name!
Salvation is free by faith tho
@@gracethroughfaithbloodofje4753 salvation only comes through Jesus Christ.
The church must never bend to culture in sin.
to late today only muslims obey god's word
@aaronmusa234 his church is my heart. Where Jesus lives.
It already has. Many times in the past and will continue to.
A "church" that allows abortion as a "right" has no problem with sodomy either.
James 3 : 2. We all made Mistake in Many things. shalom😗
My family is dealing with a young Christian man, who we thought was going to be my granddaughter's husband, has been engaged with viewing and participating in Pornography since he was 11 years old. He is now 20 years old! He has confessed to us about his activities with pornography but he and his Christian parents think it is really no big deal. Yes, repent, but not a big deal. Wellllll! It IS a HUGE deal! My granddaughter is getting wise counsel from a Christian counselor who ministers to men who are addicted to Porn. She is confirming that viewing and participating with the pornographic images in videos is a very BIG. It destroys men, their marriages and families. Wives feel inadequate and that they have been cheated on through the Pornography, which they have! Similar with homosexuality.
lusting is not loving
Lust therefore is not love - the agapé way is not mans way- ever
We must be IN Christ - in order- Gods order- to have the mind of Christ
‘Let this mind be in you as it was for Christ’
Jesus never did or said anything that He never saw His Father- God do or say
Is the young man ready to repent and stop viewing that stuff? OR
IS he committed to using pornography?
I stayed to the end, Sean! More content like this is helpful!!
I remember a decade ago...I belonged to a church that had a deconstructionist, gay affirming pastor. I came to the point were I was questioning the position I held as a believer about homosexuality (depravity) I prayed, and asked the Lord "Please Lord, I want YOUR heart on this issue. Not mine...not someone else's, but YOUR heart on this." After months of considering, studying Gods Word, and a willingness to be open to holding a different position (I truly was!) I concluded that, as a believer, and a follower of Christ, having known the Nature of God, it is foolishness, and disobedient to Gods Word, to hold the position that Preston Ulmer has shared. Even his questions, and hypotheticals reveal his lack of an understanding of the Nature of God. Just in recent times, many apostates have walked away from the faith because of this very issue! Often stating they struggled with the churches position on Homosexuality. Where Moehler may have said "Egalitarianism is the gateway to Gay affirming." I'd go as far as saying "Gay Affirming is the gateway to apostasy!" My hope is that someone like Preston would truly, sincerely seek Gods heart on this issue, and not seek to hold a "virtuous " (appearing humble and tolerant) position because he may simply struggle with the radical Biblical Worldview, which is actually freeing, loving, and filled with HOPE!🙌
My own son came out thinking he is trans, but knows my stand on LGBTQ issues. He still comes home for his hugs and the love he has known his whole life, but I can hold out hope for his full restoration and praise God I have not lost my faith...by God's mercy and truth found in the Lord Jesus Christ. There's no reason to affirm sin when you can affirm God's word and live on in grace and faith and confront the world, the flesh and the devil with the weapons of our warfare.
Such an effort to include everyone in the church.
Being decent or kind toward an LGBTQ person, is not at odds with exclusion from the church.
Since when has the church held the position that a, "saved " person, can be accepted as a member and openly continue their sin?
How would this then apply to a saved person joining the church, who is an unrepentant adulterer?
A condition of salvation is repentence. An open rejection of behavior aGod forbids
Being born again means rejecting the sins of the past, not the Church granting permission for the acceptance and continuation of sin.
Most who profess to be the Church are not the Church
Man has different churches in different locations
Instead of
The same church in different locations
Salvation isn’t about going to a church - it's about being the church and being disciplined to be discipled
We require to be taught to be good for only God is good
Anything outside of Gods requirements for salvation is self righteousness and rebellion
A person is placed into the Kingdom of God - the church upon being born again spiritually
Going to church is trying to get into heaven on one’s own merits
True believers have fellowship thru the spirit of God when they come together
Anyone else socialize thru the familiar spirit / carnal
Amen.
It sounds to me that this young man is saying “let’s all be friends and hold hands in Christ”. And all that keeps coming to my mind is that yes Jesus sat and ate with sinners but he did not affirm their sin as worthy to be presented before the Father in His kingdom in its sinful state. If you say that homosexuality practised is a sin then it must be treated like all sin and needs to be washed clean. It must be addressed as sin and offered prayer for Gods redemption as all sin within all of us also requires.
My husband and I left a church over this issue several,years ago. It came after the Supreme Court decision in 2015. In that church it was taught that God ‘was doing a new thing.’ Also, Rob Bell’s book was a big deal at the time (Love Wins). Gushee and Vines’ articles and books were circulating.
I now follow Christopher Yuan, Becket Cook, and Rosaria Butterfield. So much clarity from their messages. Rosaria has said she feels that the Trans movement, but perhaps the LGBTQ group as well, commit the sin of covetousness….wanting what someone else has. Perhaps. All I know is that I now have come to believe that when moral behavior is correctly defined and lived out it leads to soul health. Otherwise, I think the practice (of God’s moral law) grieves the Holy Spirit.
Thank you for a spirited yet respectful conversation. It was most helpful. Almost like being in one of your classes!😊
Sean,
I have listened to so many of your interviews, podcasts, etc, as well as Beckett Cook, Rosaria Butterfield, Preston Sprinkle.
Thank you for this in depth, calm, insightful discussion in this one.
This was extremely helpful and I would love to see more conversations like this one…. Maybe with you, Preston Sprinkle and Rosaria Butterfield??
Thank you for all the hard work you put into your content. I feel comfortable sending your content to non believers and progressive Christians because of how charitable you are in your discussions while holding fast to the truth of God’s word. Thank you.
I think a big difference in this conversation is McDowell is talking about objective true in interpretation of the Bible, and the other guy seems to be saying that the Bible is subjective in interpretation.
Thank you Sean for standing firm on God's truth. I was divorced before I found Christ. If I were married to him after, I would not have divorced him. Practicing homosexual behavior is an ongoing practice. If a homosexual put in their past, I would welcome them 100 percent.
God calls them Sodomites. And He told the Hebrews to eradicate them.
There are many divorced and remarried people in the church. Some on their 3rd or more marriage. Never heard one sermon on this, despite Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 7.
There are many people living in sin when they’re in Church though, you are weaponizing one.
Do you think fat people shouldn’t be welcomed to Church because they’re “practicing” gluttony? Even if they’re not on a diet?
Excellent conversation. Dr MacDowell showed Very clear and well though refutation points. Pastor Ulmer didn't showed strong arguments in his favor. God's word is the best argument. Praying for guidance and wisdom in the church.
Love it. Great conversation. Enjoy the long form format. I like listening to deeper nuanced conversations. Thanks for standing your ground and thoughtfully and lovingly responding to Preston. Preston seems like a great guy also.
More and more of this needs to be spoken of and challenged! This issue hits home for me....having my husband and ministry partner of 30 years, walk out on our marriage to pursue the gay identity and "marriage" with a man....and also, my youngest son living as a homosexual, I deeply grieve and stand in the face of a society (and christian church and friends) who affirm and support this agenda/sin. Thank you for your willingness to address it and to not cave to the culture, but stand on the truth of God's Word!
I’m only about 50 minutes in, so not finished, but juuuuust waiting on them to bring up the effects these choices have on others, e.g., children growing up with this as an example, children being influenced by peers, etc. This has become an actual trend in our culture, where you see people, especially easily influenced children, being sort of swept up in it all-there’s also this thing that’s happening in our culture where everyone wants to be sooooo different and/or have a reason to shake their fists. So, you have children being heavily influenced by the idol (let’s call it what it’s become) that is the LGBTQ+ trend, only to have their brains develop more sufficiently and then look back and think, “That wasn’t ever me.” I also think, because we as Christians are called to be loving, we equate that with being inclusive, when, in reality, the loving thing to do, as Sean said, is to lean in and TRY to speak truth into their lives. We are ALL sinners, yes, AND this particular sin (really, the entire umbrella of sexual immorality) is posing a substantial threat to humanity in our time. It’s the reigning idol of today. I think we have to lean in, but we have to do it with love and in a way that’s understanding of how very powerful the flesh is. Sometimes, I think we underestimate the enemy just because we know our Savior has already defeated him, but he’s still wildly powerful and certainly ruling with a strong foothold in this world of ours. So, I think we acknowledge that side of it too. I don’t think judgment and harsh criticism is helpful. I think we must always be mindful of the beams of wood in our own eyes, so that our hearts are in the right place of humility and understanding that we ALL need Jesus. This will, hopefully, keep us from coming at others in a holier-than-thou sense that keeps us detached from the struggle of the flesh present in this situation. It IS a very pressing, present matter though, and I do think we all have a role here.
Another issue is that of pedophilia, which is a corollary to sodomite activity. With the focus on women and their rights nowadays, the issue of little boys being raped by sodomites is never brought up. Sodomite marriage with adopted boy children will further "normalize" this deviant perversion. It is - aside from abortion - the bane and will be the downfall of society.
Gods word is final.... who are we to question Gods word....let everyone else be a liar and God be Truth.
Preston is flat out wrong. I appreciate his empathy but there's zero wiggle room on this one.
Sean is so clear and concise. Wonderful teacher and so patient.
Brother Sean, I want you to know that You are setting a great example with how you do these conversations. You're being very thoughtful and reasonable with ur arguments, and you r doing so with love.
Loving it❤
Preston Palmer seems to be finding excuses to disobey God. I was an alcoholic, a drug addict and a womanizer but I called myself a Christian. By his logic I should be able to continue in my sin and call myself a follower of Christ. The one thing y’all didn’t touch on is the doors that are opened to evil by continuing in sin that is clearly not biblical. We cannot grow in a Christian walk if we are living in rebellion. He is trying to make God what he wants him to be instead of becoming what God wants him to be
Well said sir.
If you don't call it sin, how can you repent from it?
…you don’t. Do you know what “affirm” means?
Even if one stops the behavior, they are still gay!
This has all been done before. The verses that entered the holy scriptures were there to address it. It's all a part of serving another god.
The issue isn't just same-sex marriage but includes every other secular union called marriage. It's an attack on the Bible and the God presented in it.
No other group comes into a Christian church and demands it changes for them, Islam, Buddism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Paganism, Atheism, Satanism, etc, they come to be changed by the church. It's driven by activists who hate Jesus Christ.
Very respectful conversation. My struggle was that Preston wants to present a Jesus and life with Jesus without repentance. It honestly saddened my soul that a Pastor of a local church would deny calling people to repentance- following the culture appears loving but leading them TO the foot of the cross IS love.
Yes, more of this! I kept rewinding it . Took all day to watch and appreciated every point made. Thanks, Sean and Preston. I can't wait 20 years!
One other thing, we are at this point in time because the church has wrongly stopped call heterosexual sexual sin a pass. They stopped calling out fornication, and to a degree adultery for what it is. They bowed to the culture, and same sex attraction people saw this and are using the same formula to push to stop calling same sex sexual marriage/activity a sin. We just wouldn’t be at this point if the church had not capitulated to the culture on heterosexual sin and divorce.
The church doesn't hold to the divorce and remarriage teaching: those who remarry *without* the cause of adultery are living in continuous adultery with the new spouse.
Continuous adultery would fall under the exclusion of the Kingdom of God
The Church does not ask such people to live in celibacy.
I think that the thought that they are true to the heterosexual creation framework exonerates them is a huge cop out
Thank you! I have said this same exact thing!
Hey Sean, I think it is best not to use the expression "agree to disagree" because its very confusing for some people. Some people also understand it to be "agree that WE disagree," which is not what it means. Its best to find another alternative. I see he just said that. "Its ok to have a different view or opinion." Preston needs to relisten to what he is saying because you are SPOT ON! He is AFFIRMING!
For someone who wants to see everyone agree, but knowing that is not possible, here on earth, This was uncomfortable to watch, yet interesting & thought provoking.
I identify with Sean’s perspective most from this discussion.
As someone who struggles with food issues, I often wonder how this theology applies to me…idolatry etc. I continue to work toward God’s best for me in this area of my life and I am so thankful for His grace as I grow in maturity. Knowing how to approach others in their struggles is such an important yet often imperfect practice. May the Lord truly direct us as we seek to honour him and uphold His word.
Our Adversary has craftily used this topic to divide professing believers. Thank you so much for your respectful dialogue. When other sins are raised as a defense, with an attitude of ‘we’re all sinners’ (which we are), my follow up question is, “but what other sins are celebrated?” In reality, I believe we have already reached the point where we are considered hateful, bigoted and judgmental if we call homosexuality a sin.
The practice of the homosexuality keeps one outside the Kingdom. Would Preston agree with that?
@brotherbarton1148 God is Truth and the Law and He calls sodomy an abomination.
He would not agree with that. He is saying that monogamous gay relationships are acceptable to God.
@brotherbarton1148 God is truth and reality.
Sean, I love you, I love Preston. It genuinely seems as though he is condemning these people in his Church to hell because how can one repent of sin if they are being told "it's fine here at this faith family". The council of Jerusalem had sexual immorality as one of the things that the gentiles needed to hold to.
I've never heard of Preston before this, but if you sir are a Teacher, then you know more Judgement comes to you for teaching God's word than those who don't. The scripture is very clear as to what is sin and what isn't. In the case of the incest(legally incest is still counts as God recognizes human governments) and the charge was excommunication from fellowship. Meaning they weren't in the church, so they'd needed evangelism. If you affirm a homosexual couple. And they then think that they can live in sin and have a sacrifice for them they will die and go to hell. You would be responsible for that, and if we are all children of God I believe Jesus said that it would be better for a millstone to be tied around your neck and cast into the sea than lead a little one astray.
The scripture is very clear on this issue. I cannot judge your heart. But it is very worrying. I fear for the people you have affirmed and thier children. I pray that they watch this video and repent and come to Christ.
While it´s true we cannot judge the heart of another, we are called to expose the wicked deeds of darkness and not talk them out of existence or into legitimacy. These sorts of discussions are dialectical in nature and lead to diabolical conclusions.
@@godisreality7014 I don't think they lead to diabolical conclusions I think they expose them. They are conversations that need to happen we cannot "agree to disagree" I would even respond to the slavery statement with. "Regardless of it being Philemon, John Edward's or John the Christian slave owner if one owns slaves they acquired outside indentured servatude (which I get isn't considered by some to be slavery) or war captives, or is an Israelite by birth in the time of Isreal purchased from foreign Slavers. Your salvation is quite literally at stake if you think you not in Sin. For what you are doing is Sin, further more, even if let's say they have the legitimate reasons for having a slave. If ever they treat that individual as not as thier own self or brother then they too are failing to follow the Lord. If you truly love the Lord you follow him. You would set them free. I cannot judge your heart. But the scripture would indicate you are outside the kingdom of God, which is the body of Christ, which is his Ecclessia, his Church. Repent of any Sin you have and turn to Jesus.
@@godisreality7014 hey I thought I responded earlier my bad.
Talking them out of existence? What do you mean by that?
As for the last part, if we refuse to speak about the issues affecting our culture then they will continue to grow and degrade even further.
How could the conversation of exposing darkness lead to diabolical conclusions.?
When having these conversations, I've found that it's never helpful to compare things to another sin. You're coming from a viewpoint where it is a sin, so it's very helpful for you. However, to the other person, you're essentially trying to compare a sin to something that's good, so they will never be able to see your point. It usually just ends with being extremely offended, claiming "I can't believe you're comparing me to that".
If you absolutely must use another sin as a comparison, it's best to keep it as close to the same realm of sin as possible, maybe even something you've struggled with (e.g. pre-marital sex) so they feel like you're trying to relate to them. We usually have a stupid habit of trying to jump to the worst sin we can think of (murder, slavery, etc.) and all that does is make the person extremely angry, because you basically just called them a murderer. Remember, you should be trying to have a loving conversation, not win an argument.
There is NO degree of sin in the Bible. Sin is sin for God.
The concept of "less or worst sin" is men made.
@@PablaMMoore There absolutely are degrees of sin in the Bible. Jesus himself alluded to the "greater sin" in John 19, or Sodom's punishment for their sin being more bearable than the punishment for sins in specific towns mentioned in Luke 10 and Luke 12.
Yes, what sends us to hell and requires our salvation is literally ANY sin whatsoever, small or great. However, that doesn't mean degrees of sin don't exist. The degree just has no bearing on our final destination.
@@Kyango Pride is the greatest of sins, because pride is followed by all the sins. Proverbs 16:18
But the Bible does not mention a list of sins by degree.
@@PablaMMoore Of course, there's no "official overall ranking of sins" in the Bible, lol. However, it does occasionally allude to some sin comparisons, as the examples we've given show.
I think the problem is that most of the other religions want to weigh good deeds and bad deeds on a scale to determine the afterlife. As Christians we reject that mentality, but then we also become scared of applying any kind of ranking to sins whatsoever. That doesn't mean they don't exist, however. There are undoubtedly different levels of sin, the levels just don't particularly matter in terms of salvation.
@@Kyango Religions and denominations are men made. The members of the Sanhedrin were " religious" and Jesus call them hypocrites. Matthew 23:13-15.
We are save by grace not works. Ephesians 2:8-10
Slavery is not a sin. For people that had debt, it was temporary to serve a master until the debt was paid. And for those that were permanent into bondage, the Bible is very clear on how the relationship had to be. Ephesians 6:5-9
We Christians are in bondage to the Lord. We are to obey Him and He loves us and care for us. It is a relationship of dependence on Him.
Watched to the end! Favorite conversation i've seen in months! Thank you Sean. I loved that I could feel the tension, and watched closely as you worked to model how to handle a conversation filled with differences.
I really liked how this conversation was done--it was great to see Sean challenge the arguments being made. And even though the conversation was polite, kind and courteous--Sean still pushed back. I enjoyed it and learned a lot from listening to him lay out his arguments both biblically and logically.
It is what God says , that matters. He alone is the Way, TheTruth and The Light
Thanks for the conversation! I apologize if I missed it, but it would have been helpful to me if you had defined “faithful Christian ”. Throughout the discussion, particularly on Preston’s part, Christian and faithful Christian were used synonymously. Is there a category of Christian that isn’t faithful Christian (I.e. baby/carnel Christian ala I Cor 3). Could you be an affirming heterosexual long-term baby Christian? What about some one who through long term ministry and relationship establishes themselves as faithful Christian at some point accepts an affirming stance? What caragory of Christianity would they fall in? (This is the case for a Christian couple I know who becoming affirming later in life). Is it possible to accept Christ by faith as an affirming person, and be considered a faithful Christian at any point before changing one’s stance on affirming? I hope that all made sense. Thanks!
Its all a load of jargon to deny the Word of God. That is what satan does.
@@godisreality7014 I am curious as to what part of my question inspired your comment. Thanks!
I do think that somebody can be a long term affirming "baby-christian", but I doubt, that you could be a long-term practicing homosexual "baby-christian". There is a big difference between allowing sin and living in it. In many testimonials, that I've read, even if the convert was not sure right away, they became convinced by the Holy Spirit very soon, that their homosexuality is not in line with God's design.
@@veghcsenge Sodomy is a religion. A self-identifying sodomite is not a Christian.
I tried to see it Preston’s way, but nah…
Hey Sean,
Really enjoyed the conversation. Would love to have more conversations like this, where we could truly hear both sides. Many of the other interviews of yours, though very gracious, at times feels more like a platform given to others where you hold back significantly from defending or arguing for your view.
In this interview, some of the points of Preston Ulmer really made me think. It was great to learn from you how to respond.
May God's blessings be upon you and your ministry.
This was such a good discussion. Good points on both sides and really thought provoking. I really enjoyed it
sex outside of marriage is still considered wrong and is a salvific issue. Preston is trying to make allowance where there is none, Paul tells people to rather get married and have have a wife or husband instead of burning with lust, but marriage remains unchanged as one man one woman not homosexuality or homosexual unions etc. that is forbidden, and this was rife in Roman culture, as well as any other form of sexual immorality. I'm sure it must be difficult for people to set aside their sexual preferences but they must or they may very well be placing their sexuality on a pedestal that belongs to God.
Churches still marry people whose divorce was not due to adultry. These people are living in sin.
1. Yes please do this type of content more.
2. I just kept thinking about how Jesus said that it is the sick who need a doctor and that is who he came for. If you don't believe what you are doing is wrong and don't see yourself as broken, that might be the root of the issue.
Jesus healed those who knew they were sick. A sodomite is proud of his idolatry and therefore his sin remains. John 9.41
I think the use of the term "Jesus follower" can be different than someone who is born again. I think there are lots of people who like to follow the teachings of Jesus but they are not born again. In other words, the "spirit of Christ" is not in them. See what I mean by the difference? I feel like this is one of the reasons Preston's views fall short. A true believer (not just a person who likes to follow Jesus - I mean Judas followed Jesus, didn't he?) feels convicted by sin. If you feel no guilt shame or need to repent or are not convicted by one's own sin, then how can the holy spirit indwell you?
I also love the length. Never apologize for being too long. This was incredibly relevant.
I appreciate that you were able to speak through these issues with clarity and biblical literacy in a way that is loving and respectful. You were both able to push back on the things you disagreed with and able to connect on your agreements and genuinely heard and listened to each other. Well done. Great example on how to truly wrestle with these topics.
No, not according to God's word,
Nobody can explain why adult, loving, monogamous gay marriage is supposedly "immoral." It's not like forms of sexual immorality in the Bible such as incest or adultery-those have clear, demonstrable moral harms associated with them. Christians are also extremely inconsistent about the attention they pay to Scripture. In Leviticus, one of the sexual prohibitions (still kept by Orthodox Jews) is lying with a woman during and for a week after her period. Where's the Christian condemnation of those violating this commandment? It's equally the word of God (literally three verses before the prohibition of male with male intercourse; see also Lev 15:19). I believe it's far more immoral to condemn a gay person to a loveless life of isolation than the supposed "immorality" of marrying someone of the same sex.
@@SeaSong14 Both psychological harms to the people involved, and genetic harms to potential children.
@@SeaSong14 Why did you skip over the psychological harms of incest that I mentioned-or do you deny that it's harmful in that way? As for the genetic issues, you don't make laws about marriage which require that the married couple not have children or must be sterilized.
Made it all the way through, didn’t want to have this in the background, but give it proper attention so took me a couple stints to get through. I enjoy long form discussions addressing hard topics. Thank you Sean & Preston.
Great discussion - modeling hearing each other out, applying charity and humility, and founded on Scripture. Why I subscribed!
My pastor in his sermon this weekend said (paraphrasing here) - let’s not be ‘the devil’ and shame others for their actions and let’s not be the Holy Spirit and convict others, let’s instead share the love of Christ and share truth and let the Holy Spirit do the righteous convicting as He does so well. The sermon was addressing sexuality and my pastor did hold to the truth - one man, one woman, until death is God’s perfect design for sex and definition of marriage. God bless!
Thanks Sean. Great conversation and I would like to see more of these. It helps all of us think through these issues more clearly
You got it!
I really enjoyed the conversation. It is helpful for me to hear the different angles on these kinds of topics. As a pastor, I am dealing with these issues in my church all the time. Thank you for having that dialogue.
something tells me you would fail lgbt people as a pastor