*Corrections* to be pinned here! I'll start by adding some nuanced points that couldn't quite fit the script: - My perspective comes as a graphic designer and branding specialist with almost two decades of experience. I've edited and written dozens of design guidelines and likely read hundreds, ranging from broad "visual identity guidelines" to specific ones for everything from vehicle branding, advertising campaigns, motion graphics, signage, wayfinding, app icons, etc. I bring that lens to my critique of GFBF, treating it as if I were approaching it like a design guideline. Though it's not a perfect genre match, I hope this perspective is enlightening, as it's not one I've seen shared on this topic before. - While it's possible some designers did contribute to GFBF uncredited, the broader point is that NAVA is not primarily a design organisation. By their own description, they're "Flag Enthusiasts and Scholars," and Ted Kaye himself has no formal design background. Flag design projects aren't common enough to sustain a dedicated professional niche, let alone a specialist design agency, so it's remarkable how effectively it communicates its ideas about design. - The Brazilian flag has lettering, and I don't think it should be removed. It works for various reasons: a) it's not a nametag, and b) it's not Helvetica. But mostly, it's one of those exceptions. I wouldn't highlight it in a design guideline. - The redesign of the Portuguese government brand identity was rejected not just for aesthetic reasons; there were political reasons too, beyond the scope of this video. - I've used the American spelling "color" because that's how it appears in the original. Try to remain unperturbed. - 9:05 "Destinctive" a typo - mea culpa.
In my understanding, no designers were involved in the creation of GFBF. The last page of the pamphlet lists people whose wisdom Ted Kaye distilled (as he puts it). The names he lists are mostly fellow flag collectors who were on an e-mail list together in the late 1990s and who would meet up periodically.
I'd think Saudi Arabia (or the Taliban, ISIL, or Hamas) is the more obvious "has text on it" example than Brazil. But they're entirely text and it's culturally meaningful calligraphy. The stylization on Iraq's is interesting because it's so different.
Adding letterings to flags, also complicates the manufacturing process, the flag of Saudi Arabia specifically states to manufacture the flags congruently in official usages, in vexillology terms, identical inverse and obverse, to make sure the script is readable on both sides. Such process makes the flag heavy to be flown and be picked up by the wind, as it is essentially two flag with identical, un-flipped charges (design) sewn together. Looking at historical Chinese-Korean war banners, this was also the case. Japanese less, due to reliance on mostly-symmetrical Mon seals, even when Kanji is present within the Mon design. Though it's only done to ensure readability, as despite when flipped, non-Latin-based calligraphy, still maintains its aesthetic value. Latin-based characters suffer due to the writing system is entirely depended on asymmetry, while Kanji is contained within a block. Example, "q, p, b, and d' would look the identical and be mistaken from a distance when flipped.
What's missing in the whole flag discourse in our society is a discussion of what state and city flags are even for. The arguments I hear about certain things like lettering or too much detail making a flag less "effective" don't resonate with me because as far as I can tell, flags serve no practical purpose; they're just cultural symbols to represent identity. Whether a certain detail is discernible from a distance is therefore immaterial. And it doesn't matter if the design or symbolism is immediately readable or understandable to a cultural outsider, because it's not about them, it's about the in-group's collective self-expression. But I suspect other people would disagree with me about what a flag's purpose is. This is what we as a society need to hash out when talking about flags. Why do we have a state or city flag? What problems does the existence of the flag solve? I don't mean answering "How is this new design a solution," but rather, "How is the flag itself a solution," i.e. any flag as opposed to no flag. We have to answer those questions before we can decide how good a given design is, or whether certain elements (e.g. lettering) are appropriate to include. Until then we'll all just be talking past each other. Thank you for the mention! And thank you for making this video. I'm glad a greater variety of views on flag design is being expressed after the GFBF monoculture of the past decade.
Your video was very impassioned and raised many points I hadn't considered before, so thank you for making it too. I think what you mention about a flag's purpose is a key challenge with flag design. There's no actual international authority on flags, only "enthusiast" groups. As cultural symbols, they really are a wide scope of different case-by-case scenarios - hence the footwear analogy. How do you weigh the needs and goals of different stakeholders in a project like a state flag redesign? It's not a simple question. Anyway, the rabbit hole goes deep. This was originally intended to only be a short video addressing your question on simplicity as a design virtue, but your video really stuck with me and it got me thinking deeper about some of the ways that GFBF is misapplied or ill equipped to address these projects. So thanks for inspiring this video, which I hope in turn can spark more conversation on the topic!
Historically the idea was to be recognised on ships from a distance and I guess the modern version would be getting recognised in a display at a parliament? Which isn't quite as crucial lol
Enjoy and didn't enjoy your video and your take. I feel like history is always changing, and it is a representation of the people now and their ideals. We cannot hold history as the proper path to do things for the people in the past who didn't always think that way! Either they held on to the past and preserved tradition or progressively upturned the old helm. We are revitalizing these symbols for modern people. In 100 years, people will continue to use them as representations of themselves, or they will bulldoze our grand efforts into something new anyway. The "seals on the bedsheet" were most often hurriedly made representations in the past, borrowing from another tradition of seals and heraldry to quickly make a flag that would suffice. Should maintain their poor decisions or separate the seals from the flag; administering importance to each in their own respective zone? I'm really curious about your take on Chinese Provinces and their lack of flags. I feel like the American zealot would be vexilogically angry that they aren't represented properly! Through Chinese culture, flags weren't a thing in the western sense. Today, they still aren't much of a thing except within the military and as a national identity. I don't know where I'm going with this, I'm just curious on your take on the subject and how it would it the debate.
I'd definitely disagree. There are a lot of symbols that can convey identity - seals, coats of arms, mottos, even songs. What makes flags unique among them is that flags can strongly communicate identity at a glance. The Prägnanz and distinctiveness that make a good flag distinguishable as a piece of cloth on a flagpole, even from a distance and under low-visibility conditions, also make it a great visual identification tool in a lot of other circumstances where you have to let people who you are as a group. Yes, not every element needs to be distinctive and prägnant - the motto and the stars on the Brazilian flag are a good example. But even there, the green background, golden diamond and blue circle already do the heavy lifting of visual communication. You can certainly adopt a flag that lacks distinctive and easily discernible as a symbol, but then it fails as a communication tool.
You flirt with making a competing flag design pamphlet. It would be quite interesting if you were to publish that; it could be a useful source of moderation with the flag redesign people.
I'm such a tease. But honestly - I don't have the bandwidth to dive deeper on this, but I did feel strongly enough to make this video. Hope it inspires others though!
This video seems less of a “GFBF is trash and irrelevant and offensive and harmful and ….” video and more of a “GFBF can be made better by ….”. So why are there so many “minimalism is trash and ….” comments?!? The last 3 minutes of revisions all involved making extracted and remixed elements meaningful, not maximizing unnecessary shapes and colors!
I think that was the big difference between this video and Premodernist’s bashing of GFBF. Linus did exceptionally well of being gracious and nuanced in his critique.
@@agbook2007 Linus is rather nicely taking the stance that variety in design is quite good for design in general, which is why he opened with the whole thing about orthodoxy and shoes. You see it in web design as well, where some people will quite quickly jump to calling a busier maximalist design "bad", because their school of design has a limited definition for "good." The old "rules are made to be broken" saying applies more to design than most other things.
the same type of people who a few years ago were jumping on GFBF with no real design knowledge or skill are now jumping on the hate train with... still no real design knowledge or skill. it's sad because this is one of the only GFBF critique videos I've seen that's actually any good, but a lot of the people coming here are just looking for something bashing it rather than actually caring about the craft - the awful JJ McCullough video is a great example of this.
@@DNeonLampBut he still HATES the California flag, despite it even GFBF giving it as an example of a good design despite breaking a lot of rules. Which I’m like, sure, if you want to put it in C-tier with the other “not amazing but at least interesting and distinctive” flags I understand, but he’s like “NO! F Tier! Below even the Seals on Bedsheets! Because it has TEEEEEXT, and because my design sensibilities interpret a classic heraldry-inspired depiction of a bear as ‘frightened’ instead of the intended ‘frightening’”
@@DNeonLampI used to read the vexillology subreddit, and now started to wonder if the unbelievable Maryland fanboying is CGP Grey's fault, or just some inexplicable curse commonly befallen on flag enthusiasts... To me it's still a hot mess, but I can still feel the fingers of group madness reaching at me from years past, trying to convince me otherwise. But that's just peer pressure, not good design.
So refreshing to hear the perspective of someone who actually knows about design. So many of the flagsperts have no real design knowledge or training so their theories are just based on half-informed feelings based on a very limited set of case studies.
The idea that flag design should be based on case studies rather than the feelings the flag evokes is the exact mindset that leads these people to this foolishness. Trying to distil art into a set of best practices and committee decisions is how you create minimalist corporate logos and NAVA flags.
@@_xeere The point is not that these rules need to be followed, it's that Linus is offering an ACTUAL graphic designer's perspective on what "best practices" should be like.
@@JJMcCullough How many flags has he designed? While the technical knowledge of design is a good thing in this discussion, simply doing something similar is not a qualification. The original author of the rules probably knew a lot more about flags than Linus, and yet what he produced was of little, or perhaps negative, value.
I give JJ McCullough a lot of credit for moving the conversation forward, as you describe at the end. Once a major proponent of flag reform, last year, he released a video critiquing what he perceived to be the excesses of the movement that received a good deal of traction. The new, quite underwhelming Minnesota flag and CGO Grey's terrible, state-by-state flag critique video have been really galvanizing for what I'll call the "Flag Reform Reform" crowd, and I'm glad that the conversation is moving towards and increasing recognition of the complexity of design in context, beyond these childish notions of "good" and "bad" flags.
I also give JJ credit, but I also want to point out that people (mostly on anonymous forums) criticizing this "Flag Reform" trend have existed for some years before his video. Though he was definitely one of the first to thrust this perspective into the "mainstream", at least in the youtube commentary community.
@@glennac imo he sticks way too close to the 5 principles laid out in GFBF. He fails most flags for lettering or complexity alone. Something like California’s flag, which is a well loved and instantly recognizable symbol, is failed because of the text and general complexity. All while it does its job perfectly well. Simultaneously he makes some really weird redesign suggestions, such as creating adjoining flags for the north/south state pairs which remove their individuality. Tying two places together with one design is like saying they’re basically the same place
I’m very here for the “Good Flag, Bad Flag” Othodoxy backlash. This is exactly how I feel about the present ways people are approaching flag design, namely CGP Grey. I think 99% Invisible ultimately communicated the ideas of this pamphlet well without adhering to these rules in absurd ways. They actually tried to discuss a way to get started with flag design and NOT a grading scale of flags. I guess you get much more engagement if you do the latter. Great response to the Premodernist by the way! I left a comment addressing how how the “simplicity” and “can a child draw it” rules are more about remix-ability, motif expression at various scales, memorability of themes, and usability in various contexts. The purpose of a good flag is civic engagement! Call it a form of branding, but people like symbols of things they value. It does mean something and that doesn’t always have to be bad.
I think the "a child could be able to draw it from memory" way of expressing principle 1 is more useful than principle 1 by itself, if you interpret it in a nuanced way. Like, the kid doesn't have to be able to draw it perfectly, just well enough that you can tell what flag it's supposed to be. Which also means the flag has to be distinctive and unconfusing enough to be remembered in the first place; think of how many European flags are easy to get mixed up with each other because they're just palette swaps of the same ultra-basic design.
A legitimately thought you were going to critique the designs of flags found within the Bible and was very confused because I didn't think there were any graphic designs in the Bible
There aren't flag designs in the Bible, but the Midrash designed flags for each of the 12 tribes as such: take the icon described in Jacob's blessing and put them on their gemstone's color. So, say, Reuben's map (that's the exact term used) was mandrakes on a red background...
Scott Wadsworth of Essential Craftsman cited a quote once that really sticks with me, from Harry Day the British WWI flying ace - "Rules exist for the strict adherence of fools, and for the informed guidance of wise men" Unfortunately, treating rules as unbreakable dogma really extends to broken thinking in many parts of life. Great presentation and insight as always, Linus!
I was half expecting the Dutch government redesign to pop up when talking about adapting a seal into a logo. It's an interesting case study of rebranding an enormous amount of ministries and departments with separate identities into one (two if you include military) unified brand identities. It's what the Nixon era redesign could have been.
I've always found it interesting how people are so quick to bash the "minimalist logo" trend, but everyone seems to like e.g. the Japanese prefecture flags. Instead of "seals on a bedsheet", we now have "logos on a rectangle".
I can't quite tell most of them apart but I feel like it's something I could easily memorise just cos the colours are so distinctive, I remember Hiroshima cos it's purple with three arrows and their soccer team is SanFrecce Hiroshima for example
@@justinw1554 exactly. And the prefecture flags additionally make sense in a simple form because they fit together as a set. If a single US state redesigns its flag, then it has to stand on its own. But if the US decided to redesign every state flag at once, then there would be a good case to treat them as a set with a coherent overarching style. Which in turn lends itself to using a fairly simple design pattern.
@@justinw1554 Actually, a lot of modern prefectural seals aren't like the clan Mon, but are really stylized versions of Kanji or just regular logo designs. There's nothing particularly Mon-derived in the flag of Aomori, for instance, but it is indeed, just reflective of Modern era design trends as used by designers within Japan's cultural sphere.
the last part of the GFBF is the best part. i wholeheartedly disagree with the idea of not showing exceptions because "it's an unspoken rule". the pamphlet was clearly communicating that good flag design can break all the rules, which is very very important, since this isn't aimed at just designers, but a more general public. they've always been guidelines and im not a fan of the idea that the pamphlet somehow promotes strict adherence to any of them.
Wow. My country of Dominica is goven as an example of a bad flag in GFBF for using too many colours- but the colours are wrong on the pamphlet 🇩🇲 Naturally I'm defensive, but I've always felt the ribbons and the green are doing the work- with the detail on parrot as a bit of a plus. Like Spain's flag contains green 🇪🇸 if you look closely at the crest, but its the triband that makes it iconic. (great video and measured response, I'm just heated)
Thank you thank you THANK YOU for putting the most coherent voice yet to all my thoughts on GFBF. Currently working on something in Pennsylvania and this video is now on my list of things decision-makers *need* to see.
You're saying it's not kind to critique bad examples, but that's what you mostly do on your channel and that's what makes your channel so fun to watch!
Rules for thee and not for me! ;) But honestly, I was specifically talking about in the context of design guidelines. But there's definitely entertainment value in critiquing bad examples, at least, I hope!
That pamphlet is basically 2 points disguised as 5. 1. Keep it simple. 2. If you use a symbol only use 1 because being simple is better. 3. Use no more than 3 basic colours because simple is better. 4. Never use lettering or seals because that would not be simple and rule 1 says keep it simple. 5. Be distinctive but not TOO simple. What is a group supposed to do with this information? It's like someone heard about minimalism once at a conference and then decided to teach design to people while ignoring the problem to solve which is that there are thousands of countries, states, provinces, cities, schools, organizations and teams and if all of them change their flags to a 2 or 3 primary colour horizontal striped design with an icon in the middle we are going to have a lot of identical flags out there.
The funny thing about this is that we've already had historical examples of this. For instance, the flag of England (St. George's Cross) was used earlier (and still is used) as the flag of Genoa. Imagine if the Republic of Genoa was still an independent nation!
I think it's interesting to look at car crests when talking about seals or coats of arms. A number of car brands started with seals and had to reduce them to fit in a center cap. Porsche and Cadillac both simplified and cut elements to make cohesive and distinctive logos.
And the Cadillac crest is utterly meaningless. The Porsche crest relates back to existing crest of the city if Stuttgart. Volkswagen also pays homage to the city crest of Wolksburg. Every state, hamlet, county or city has a crest and some are seeped in history. Some are surprisingly abstract, or nothing more than patterns (see BMW).
@@boxsterman77 The BMW logo's pattern is a tribute to the flag and coat of arms of the Kingdom of Bavaria under which it was founded (the name BMW, Bayerische Motorenwerke, means Bavarian Motorworks in English), so it isn't quite meaningless.
@@boxsterman77 Apart from the BMW crest being a clear reference to the origin of its name, i.e. Bavaria, how does VW pay homage to Wolfsburg? The VW logo is (and has been since the 1930s) just a VW in a circle. The city crest of Wolfsburg is a rather complex design but has no V or W shape anywhere. Not to mention that the city of Wolfsburg is _younger_ than the car manufacturer, and was founded specifically to house VW, so if anything, it would be the other way around.
I’m honestly surprised that the principle you agreed with the most was the 2-3 basic colors principle - that’s the one I DISAGREE with the most. The sheer number of incredible flags I can think of with 4 or more colors or else non-standard colors makes me think that that principle is the most obvious candidate for exclusion
@@mylittledashie7419 fair point, but there are so sheerly many exceptions to the rule that I think to even call it a good guideline to loosely follow is too much. To be fair, I think the way he formulated it at the end, with like (I watched it yesterday so I’m sorry if I get the wording wrong) “two to three basic colors for the main field of the flag,” was a good way to put that and does generally work as a guideline with a lot fewer exceptions.
It’s a matter of symbolism vs. effectiveness. Good flag, bad flag is confusing because it’s meant to explain what makes a flag effective, but then also dabbles in symbolism. What you should do is read GFBF to understand effectiveness, and then read Brian Cham’s dealbreakers of flag design to understand symbolism. Ignore effectiveness, and it won’t fulfill the purpose a flag. Ignore symbolism, and the flag won’t be flown.
Thanks. This encapsulates my thoughts on how Good Flag, Bad Flag and Six Deal-Breakers ought to complement each other. I never saw these as conflicting and I don't like people hijacking my presentation/article as if it were some kind of rebuttal to Good Flag, Bad Flag.
One thing that I haven’t seen addressed that both Premodernist and JJ Mcullough bring up is why flags need to be “designed” like corporate logos. Why are we accepting the framing of graphic design as the appropriate one to apply to historical symbols like flags? I get that this is a graphic design channel, but I think Premodernist makes a very good case that historical significance could be more important than graphic design. By assuming that flags should adhere to graphic design principles and function as logos for a state or city, we’re implicitly accepting a capitalist framing that a state or city is a brand that needs to be represented as such. I would have liked to seen some attempt to justify why it’s appropriate to think of flags as needing to conform to a brand rather than just be whatever the city or state or whatever feels most comfortably represents them.
A "brand" is, in its essence, not something inherently capitalist or related to corporate. It's just the corporate name for meaningful symbolism to strengthen identity and cohesion, a feature that is strongly ingrained in human culture. As such, historical references often come from exactly that - meanginful symbolism that was a "brand" in the past. France's Tricolore is the "brand" of the French Revolution, coming from a symbol used by the revolutionaries to emphasise their common cause. A red banner is a universal symbol of the workers' movement, thereby creating a sense of solidarity - and serving as a "brand" for basically everything coming from that origin, together with stars, hammer and sickle, and the colour yellow as contrast. Many "overly complex" designs are based on coats of arms - which by themselves originated as "logos" that could be very quickly identified and distinguished. All of these have historic roots, but they also work great as "logos" for their respective entities or ideas. Graphic design principles don't exist because of corporations, they exist because they are based on human nature, esp. perception and memory, itself.
I noticed that more complex flags usually only work when they are still a distinctive design when all the details are stripped away For example Brazil becomes a blue circle on that yellow shape on green, or the US becomes a dotted blue rectangle on red/white stripes, number of dots and stripes aren't important As a counterexample those seal on blue state flags become white circle or blob on blue, which on it's own is probably fine but there are like 30 of them and many of the seals aren't even mostly white so the blob hasn't got one dominant color
One thing I noticed about many bad flag designs is that the problem isn't really with these guideline rules, but with more universal design principles like use of space and detail density. Especially those 'seal flags' often put a highly detailed seal in front of a solid colour background (and often with poor colour coordination on top of that). The result seems too busy in a small center while having a jarringly empty background. Brazil and Portugal are nice examples to the opposite. They contain large shapes to break up the background and have a rising detail-gradient towards the center, rather than an abrupt 100% detail/0% detail-boundary. While classic three-stripes designs, like those of most European countries, have the simplest solution by only having one equally spaced (more or less at least) level of detail. The flag of Serbia then adds one level of detail on top in form of its seal, which is nicely spaced and scaled.
Just a small observation, no shade thrown on any person, but I noticed that for a long time these design rules were cherished by many folks until just recently when a few folks made videos against them. Now being against these rules is fashionable. I wonder what exactly happened?
My guess would be that a number of state flag redesigns (namely Utah and especially now Minnesota) have ignited conversation around the simplistic style championed by GFBF. I think Minnesota's redesign has been especially controversial and has changed a lot of people's opinion on the GFBF design philosophy
I've noticed this stuff too, my interpretation is that it's been long enough since Good Flag, Bad Flag seeped into the public consciousness that now people are re-evaluating its message, which also works because (at least from my non-graphic designer layman view) design has swung away from the minimalism that was big in the 2010s, and the stripped down design ethos Good Flag Bad Flag argued for.
It's called thermostatic public opinion. 10 years ago almost nobody even really thought about flag design. Then some high profile influencers (like CGP Grey) drew attention to these guidelines and it resonated with a lot of people. It felt like a sort of hidden knowledge that explained something they may have felt but never really thought much about or articulated, and it caught on. As a result it started getting it's own cult following, who had some political successes, and sometimes might have been a bit too zealous about it, which lead to some people thinking it went too far and offering some pushback on it. Basically anything that becomes popular has a backlash. If the backlash becomes too popular then it too gets a backlash. And so on for as long as interest remains in talking about it.
What happened is that doofuses like CGP Gray started taking it upon themselves to critique flags as a way of signalling their superiority in a very niche subject that most people are ambivalent about without bothering to understand how or why many “bad” flags came to look the way they do. It’s an obnoxious kind of cultural revisionism that assumes that there’s something to “fix” and that the “solution” is to be found in the rigid orthodoxy of a pamphlet that you have never heard of.
Logical to use are heraldry rules for colors. If there are two colors next to each other, like green and blue, put white or yellow two metal colors so you can break the 3-color rule. Which is the reason the South African flag works; they put yellow and white to divide other colors. Edit: Heraldry was important way back in the battle field, so differentiate allies and enemy rules were to make them more aligible. Which sould applied to possible flag rules.
You know CGP Grey has been considering outlining a response to Premodernist ever since that video went up. He is surely within a few months of weighing pros and cons and deciding to plan the video. In three years he's gonna have a banger of a video responding to these attacks.
@@pascalfibonacci I'd just like to quote a line or two very start of that video *ahem* "[Designing a good flag is] a tough task, though not too tough with the *GUIDELINES* I gave you. One) Keep it simple, something a child could draw, *EVEN IF THEY NEED TO SIMPLIFY IT AGAIN* [...] 3) 3 colours or fewer, *UNLESS YOU REALLY KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING* [...] 5) Words on a flag: the *IDEAL* number is zero" Wow, yeah, really "strict adherence" to the rules. Nevermind that he positively rates several flags that break the rules later on. Did you guys even watch the video, or have you just been told that some youtube guy is the cause of all your vexillological woes?
Now I wanna see a long video where you share thoughts on the final designs of recent redesigns. I’m biased because I live in an area that’s had a few on the city and state levels in the past 20 years or so. Haha
I really enjoy this! The video makes a great compliment to to the Premodernist one, taking more of a graphic design approach rather than one based on history or material culture.
GFBF helped me develop a flag design project that earned me a nomination to join the AGI, but what a pleasant surprise to see you elaborate on some of the shortcomings I worked around while designing 32 different flags. Kudos!
I feel like “Good Flag, Bad Flag” has lead to a lot of bland/generic designs as well. Too reliant on geometric shapes for their designs as virtually anything else is frowned upon. Think the flag redesigns of Mississippi & Utah being better received than Minnesota’s. Or how the “ Appalachian” flag has been far less visible compared to the Cascadia flag despite similar origins.
@@evanpereira3555 the flag just screams "diddly diddly diddly doo, we sailed the seven seas, also we have way too much lore so don't ask" like straight up pulling the Basque and Brittany into it like a pair of obscure historical flashbangs just to bamboozle everyone who sees it
I thought this video was gonna be about an edition of the Bible with a flag themed cover design and idk if I should be relieved or disappointed that it isn't 😅
I worry that in our effort to comfort really poorly designed flags and establish design principles to foster better ones, that we become rigid and dogmatic, leading to an assembly of flags that look formulaic and safe. Sometimes it would be ok to exceed 3 colors. South Africa’s flag is just fine. Sometimes it should be ok to include letters. The c in Colorado’s flag is not an abomination.
People treating good advice as unbreakable dogma is a standard problem in most fields. The next step after that is that an antagonistic group sprouts up complaining that the good advice (that was never intended to be universal) isn't universal. Then it becomes the new dogma for a while that the original advice is bad actually because it isn't universally applicable. Then the advice gets slowly forgotten about because people stop giving the advice. Then somebody reinvents it. Return to beginning.
Often the simplicity mandate is justified by some naval flag origin story set on the high seas, and this is somewhat accurate for many famous National European flags. The problem is that this isn't the only origin for flags in Europe, many originate in rather detailed banners which would have never been flown at sea. This is especially common for the flag of a region or city within a larger nation. Many of these very detailed heraldry derived flags are rather popular, the Welsh love theirs.
A few years ago I started a project to redesign the flags of US/Canada states/provinces/territories. Mostly because I hate my own state's (Michigan). I don't think I'd heard of "Good Flag, Bad Flag" until now, but apparently I adopted some of its principles as rules - e.g. "no words", "no years", "no seals" - mostly because "rules" gave me the freedom to slash-and-burn if I wanted. Especially for the ones with racist history. However, I did make exceptions. One of my favorite things to do with seals was - as you suggest - to pull elements out of them... I found some neat things in some of the seals that yielded some designs I like a lot. There were also a few that I couldn't improve on, and I left those as-is. [link in reply]
I am imagining that hypothetical from the beginning. On the one hand, no steel-toed boots. On the other hand, no crocs AND no high heels? I am sorry to those toes that will be lost, but your sacrifice will not be in vain. For good and ill, bring upon the Good Shoe, Bad Shoe design era.
I'd love your guess as to why the final version of the new Minnesota flag is just two-color. The submitted design it's mostly based on included a tricolor area I very much prefer to the flat blue. It went from overdense to jarringly sparse, I think, though I prefer the new one.
No need to guess, the committee discussions that led to that change are on the public record. The short answer is that after reviewing several potential variations, the selection committee was swayed by a demonstration of the winning one where it was pointed out that, when hung in it's vertical orientation, it resembles a night sky with the North star (MN's state motto is "l'Etoile du Nord" i.e. "the Star of the North") over the Mississippi river (which has it's source in the state). Personally, while I did initially prefer the tricolor, I have already seen variants of the flag that have put other logos (such as sports teams) in the light blue field, and it works really well. I like that our new flag has the flexibility to be adapted without losing any of it's defining characteristics.
CGP Grey has an amazing video where he explains why different states flags work… and frankly, don’t work. He does it for Canada provinces too. Here’s the thing: The seals were never meant to be on flags & they rarely see common usage today. Nearly every seal flag is on a blue background as well. This means, from hanging on a flag pole to being an emoji, they are indistinguishable because most people can’t tell their own state seals… so then you end up with flags with a ton of words and numbers on them. Flags also shouldn’t have logos on them. Logos serve an entirely different purpose. Logos go on letterhead & the hang tags of merchandise. The state flag waves over the stadium or capitol building or elementary school. Here are the list of rules most flag enthusiasts I know of live by… including CGP Grey: 1. Be distinctive or *purposefully* be part of a set. The state seal flags aren’t trying to be part of a set. If they were, they wouldn’t slap their names on them. The Scandinavian flags ARE purposefully trying to be part of a set. 2. Be identifiable while hanging limp from a flag pole. This is why state seal flags flounder as well. It’s all a sea of blue. It’s also why so many 2 color, color-block flags often flop too. Ukraine works because both its gold & its blue are incredibly distinctive. Poland/Indonesia & their red/white little friends aren’t necessarily bad flags… but red/white is such a basic combo combined with the basic 2 color that they all end up confused and indistinguishable while limp on a flag pole or shrunk to emoji size. The slight shade variations in red or minute aspect ratio differences don’t matter at that point. Poland’s flag is fine. Indonesia’s flag is fine. Both of them existing together in the same universe… is rough. And we know this because they both have been hoisted upside down at various international sporting competitions and accidentally exchanged for each other as well. Côte d’Ivoire & Ireland have also had their flags hung backwards or mistaken for each other. 3. The first two should combine in such a way that a grade schooler should be able to convey the “vibes” of the flag with crayons… you could also say that it should be able to be simplified to emoji form & still be identifiable. Honestly, whichever floats your boat. Both guidelines serve the same purpose. Turkmenistan can keep its carpets. In fact, it benefits from them. A child or an emoji can render it with a bold red stripe & that bold red stripe also helps it stand out when hanging limp on a flag pole. 4. When in doubt, keep it simple. 3 meaningful & differing from the norm shades absolutely gets the job done. 5 shades is also an option, but a gradient works best with this option. The LGBTQ+ collection of flags proves this point over and over. 5. You have to fundamentally understand what makes good design to break the rules in a meaningful way. Colorado and Ohio with their cheeky hidden letters… Maryland & South Africa with their bold, geometric shapes that stand out in any form… Ohio, Nepal, & Switzerland with their out of the box shapes and aspect ratios respectively… 6. It’s shocking that it must be said, but words have no place on a flag unless they so seamlessly integrate that you forget they’re there. But without “breaking” any “rules” you can see the true beauty in simplicity when you look at Tennessee, Ohio, Texas, Minnesota, the backside of Oregon, Colorado, Wyoming if it would ditch the seal, Utah being absolutely schmick, New Mexico pulling out all the stops by managing to be bold & simple & identifiable, Arizona with the simple & striking twist on a two color, & Alaska making stars cool again. Minnesota ditched their seal and their new flag is a STANDOUT! Virginia is the only state seal flag that gets to remain a sea of blue state seal flag… it gets to keep its words too. You can’t argue with a slain king & the motto Sic Semper Tyrannis. I would insist it lose the word Virginia though. If it’s the only seal flag remaining… it stands out as much as it deserves to. State Seal flags that could be redesigned using part of the seal: Delaware because of the unique background color & dope ship in the seal. New Hampshire has the makings of a really cool flag if they just take the center of their seal with the pale blue water, white sky, yellow sun & leave it at that… though a simplified ship would be okay. Just make that the whole flag. New York has the same situation as New Hampshire. They’ve got an iconic flag in the making within their seal. I’m certain a good designer or at least someone not as exhausted as I am can translate that sun overlooking the convergence of the two rivers in New York Harbor into a glorious flag. Vermont is in the same boat as New Hampshire and New York. We could get a trio of coordinating flags going. Kentucky, please redesign your flag just using your state flower. It’s pretty. Maine… I’d prefer just a moose. Its seal has a cute moose hiding in the grass. Missouri has something to work with. All that needs tweaking is the inside of the star circle. It does have most bears on a flag, but I think I’d prefer the left half of the inner seal just upscale to fill the star circle. States where simple tweaks could improve flags vastly: Georgia… you almost nailed it. But so many words in bad fonts. Impossible to read online. Love the idea of a bold emblem in the star ring though. NC, lose your dates please. I’d allow the N & C to stay. But truthfully, I’d like to see SC and NC redesign into sister flags. North and South Dakota, please do the same. Rhode Island is fine… other than that word Hope. Just lose the words Louisiana. You too Indiana. Mississippi was almost perfect. Why the words? Iowa can keep its design, just swap the eagle with all its words for a simplified eagle in the middle and no state name! Ditch your name California. Oregon, just ditch your whole front side. Your back is dope. Wyoming and Oklahoma just need to ditch their wording and seal type stuff. The iconography is iconic otherwise. Send help to Illinois. Alabama too, but for a whole other reason. Arkansas needs help too. I like the star diamond and red background… but that’s it. Wisconsin is one of the few truly hopeless sea of blue seal states. It’s an abomination. It needs a redesign to feature the farming of the south and the north woods. Why does Hawaii have the Union Jack on it? It was never colonized by the UK. Also, ditch that part and it’s a pretty cool flag. I’ve run out of steam. But as you can see, I give this an inordinate amount of thought. I love South Dakota’s shades of blue and gold. I wish North Dakota would adopt the same gold and keep their deep moody blue and we get sister flags involving sun rays since they both feature sun rays too.
@@stellamcwick8455 Thanks. I really like flags for their purity. The simple geometry. The clean lines. The emblematic iconography. I also really like countryball cartoons and when you’re consuming funny skits about real world country relations and stereotypes acted out by bouncy flag balls… you really pick up on the flags that are problematic.
@@Chaotic_Pixie Flags being simple and geometric I think is a more modern phenomenon. The flag of the Serene Republic of Venice is an example. (And quite beautiful). Especially today when many flags are designed via computers and vector graphics by people who may have never drawn. I think this leads to some oversaturation when it comes to minimalist, vector/geometric flag proposals. Heraldry can get fairly complex and is the basis for many flags.
Overall, I agree with this take. But Virginia’s state seal on a flag is not very recognizable from a distance, in miniature, or hanging limply on the pole. I’d reuse some of the elements - they’re metal as hell - but simplify the design. The problem with ditching the words on North Carolina’s flag is that it then looks too similar to the Lone Star Flag of Texas. I think it needs a more substantial redesign. South Carolina’s flag is great; I wouldn’t change it.
@@amicaaranearum Agreed about NC. My issue with SC is that most people don’t realize that’s a saw palmetto and not a palm tree. They expect it to be a flag for, well, not SC. I really would love to see our North & South sister states to have sibling flags, but that’s just me. I’d genuinely love to see Virginia get a redesign that keeps it just as metal. A simplification of the seal could work. Maybe a sword jammed straight through a crown with the motto? It’s really the only motto I’d let fly I think.
I'm so glad people are waking up to this insanity. no, we don't need to make every flag stupid flat modern looking corporate logo. when people like CGP show their ideas for alternatives I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. tradition>modern design trends.
You've inadvertently explained why I dislike so many of the rash of new county flags we've had in the UK over the last few years: they look like logos scaled up. I don't think that's good design for a flag per se - flags need to be recognisable when not flat, logos don't. But I also think it's inappropriate for political entities older than most countries (older than UK or its nations in some cases) to have flags that look like they were designed on a computer for a £100 tax dodge company yesterday.
Couldn't disagree with you more. I simply think flags are for the people they represent. If the people like the flag and use/display it, then that's a win, and the only win worth counting. OR we can apply your elitist standards and have a flag that is only used in government buildings because the average person doesn't care about it or like its design.
As others have asked, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on the new Minnesota flag specifically. I'm especially interested in what you think of their selection process; I'm fairly convinced that a large part of the backlash to the final design was due to how publicly it all played out. On one hand, I appreciate the transparency and amount of public engagement, but on the other I think it led to a lot of people who were not familiar with an iterative design process getting attached to proposed flags and inevitably feeling let down when their favorite didn't win or, even in the case of the "winning" design, when it underwent significant revisions before being finalized. If the final flag had been presented with no prior discourse, I think it would have been received much more positively. For the record, as a Minnesotan, I'm actually really happy with what we landed on.
5:30 god not this topic again 😭 Me and my classmates were students from the head of the studio that redesigned and honestly we were very supportive of the new design. But yeah, like you said in the video and in the comments, there's just too many layers to this situation Currently, the new design system has been fully adopted *except* the new logo, which just makes me so confused, god. On last school year it was a really heated topic in my college and was very difficult to explain to someone who didn't understand current design priciples how the new visual language succeeds in ways the previous ine didn't. Of course it's not just about the usability but it was very difficult to actually talk with someone about all of this Anyways, thanks for mentioning my government's example :) PORTUGAL CARALHOOOOO
The thing about a city flag I suppose is it won't be shrunk to a lapel pin or enlarged to the size of a football field. It'll be flown over city hall and other public buildings. It identifies 'local government in here.'
I think most of this video is good, but some of your points fall flat on their faces. - Shoes serve induvidual expression. Flags represent communities. So flags should have mass appeal in the community but shoes only need to appeal to one induvidual. -Flags are fundamentally physical media, not online graphics. Production costs are important. imo Printed flags look much worse stiched flags, so this should be a consideration. Even when online, (like as an emoji or wallpaper background) it is still a representation of a physical object. - Lettering can be beautiful on flags by using caligraphy instead of typography e.g. Saudi Arabia. For an example with the latin alphabet, consider the first letter of a chapter of an old book. - 5:20 spelling error - I think you overemphisise adapting an existing historic 'design'. I think this is often a bad idea that leads to unimaginative uninspired flags. Using cultural symbols and colours is the important part, not the specifics of previous flag.
a flag for an association is one thing, but taking the flag of a people or state and turning it into a logo is crass. a seal on a solid colour is a stately representation for a mature governance. it inspires a faith that the people beneath that flag are at least striving to be unhurried and effective stewards. redesigning a flag to fit with modern perceptions strikes me as a foul omen for the priorities and maturity of the people entrusted with governance.
Great video! Something I would also consider is the other side of the flag, most flags have a flipped side. This is also why text or emblems are not a good idea in a flag. Backwards text is hard to read! Also if the flag is hanging from a pole and flowing in the wind, is it still recognizable? Does it look good or recognizable when it's sagging when there is no wind?
In a world with 4 hour videos about copyright, I'm genuinely surprised people still worry about a 14 minute video. I guess maybe it's different audiences, but I can't imagine this video would have been made worse if it were over the 15 minute mark.
First of all, I agree wholeheartedly with like 99% of what is said here, ESPECIALLY the point about how it takes a great designer to make a great flag and the corresponding bit about breaking the rules. I would like to ad however that there is plenty of historical tradition of text on flags in the "western world", one prominent example would be UK style heraldic standards, a type of flag that follows very strict design guides and features the representative's motto in bold letters. Similar cases can be historically be found throughout Europe, usually in form of mottos or prayers written upon war banners. Nowadays you'll primarily see text on flags in highly detailed ceremonial flags, that get carried into parades and such, for example club standards in Germany. I think this all plays into your point of what the flag is supposed to be used for.
This 100% needs to be made into an actual pamphlet. While the "Good Flag Bad Flag" pamphlet has led to some marginally better flags it has caused more boring flags than anything else.
As a graphic designer and vexillogy enthusiast I mostly agree with you. However, i believe this pamphlet is not for designers at all. And those ones this 5 rules make their flag desings better.
I felt this video was a good adaptation instead of a recreation of GFBF. Very positive and constructive approach! Too much negativity on the internet so I appreciated it :)
Flag tastes seem to be changing a lot. I guess it doesn't really matter what you do, someone will hate it eventually. If you stick with it for long enough though, it will eventually become iconic
hi sorry but for the first 30 seconds i thought you were making an analogy to The Actual Christian Bible and got really confused about what this video's topic was.
The core issue is what flags are used for. For example, I live in Colorado and see the State flag daily. I've also lived in States with "Coat of Arms" Flags and never once saw them. Is the Colorado flag better? YES, absolutely. Why, because regular everyday Coloradans use it often because of it's "simple" but recognizable design. Flags are for people. And it's not a debate what type of flags people like.
Interesting. Something I was thinking about while watching was: rather than that a kid should be able to draw it, it should be able to describe it. The US flag can be described as stars and stripes. How many and in which order isn't that important to understand it. The rainbow flag has many colors, but is easy to describe. The columbian flag is simple and only has three colors, but try to describe quickly that the yellow part is much bigger while it also gets lost in a sea of flags with similar colors. The flag on the cover with three triangle thingys … I have no idea what those are supposed to be, even though it follows all the rules. Could just have been solid triangles and good to go. (No idea where to south africa in this idea. The flag just seems to work without much reason.)
JJ McCullough's vid kinda flipped my mind on this, like there's not a real purpose for city or state flags to be told apart when a two letter code or outline functions better on the web, but I completely understand wanting a flag that stands out better than a largely blue flag like the Australian state flags that don't even line up with state colours (QLD have a blue cross and NSW have a red cross...)
Yeah. There are professionals that are experts on their subject. Linus is a designer, and he is far ahead of those other guys who wrote that pamphlet. There are some cases where amateurs are exceptionally talented and they will exceed regular professionals, but there are no cases where those amateurs are better than the best professionals.
I’m a minimalist and even I think the oversimplification of flags is too much. People complained when logos remove some details, now flags are becoming a few triangles and yet it becomes “symbolic”
I think having a 'code' as such is a nice base, but being far too strict on it means we end up with boring, corporate looking flags devoid of heritage or a link to the region is represents.
Your assumptions. There were no technical constraints involved; no issue of losing fidelity when such teeny elements were added to the Unicode table. 2. No, it could have been easily accomplished and people could actually count the stars, even if they needed a microscope. 3. So it was a deliberate human decision to violate the image of the US flag. 4. And it was one person who did this. 5. And this one person had some ulterior motive, or at least some motive not readily apparent. 6. And this one person owes YOU an answer. 7. And there’s something about having 14 stars that requires explanation. Maybe it’s wrong to have 14 stars, even though there once was a flag with 13 and then 15 stars. But maybe 14 is some slight. Or some signal to some enemy. Or a way to control the weather. 8. And the motive that caused this suppression of stars was not the one which caused the the rendering of other flags, ones with animals, emblems, sun’s with faces and others with great detail to be not exactly done in fidelity with the official version many thousands of times the size. Oh and there exists no flag emoji with 50 stars. But in fact there are. 🇺🇸 Maybe your platform or font choice doesn’t feature it, but others do. So that should limit the scope of your conspiracy hunting considerably. 🇺🇸
@@boxsterman77 What conspiracy? I'm just curious about the emoji Linus used in the video. You made this wild, speculative assumption about the motivation for my question. I literally just mused on what the process for designing that emoji might be. Not sure how I offended you or what inspired this tangent.
I have thousands of comments across youtube and I basically never use strong language, but, honestly, people out there defending seals on flags can **** ***! (TH-cam suggested I change those words, lol) The book was on the right track but didn't get the rules right, that there are "positive excepts" shows this. There should never be allowable exceptions; if there are then you messed up. The reasons that some complex flags can still "work" is because they were first to that particular pattern of complexity and none have since copied them. Remove a star from the US flag and no-one's going to spot the difference at the emoji level. People already have enough trouble telling Serbia, Slovakia, and Slovenia apart (and yet Czechia is well recognized). There is still plenty of design space for complexity, for example seals are by their very nature supposed to be as complex as possible to make forgery harder. Complexity isn't fundamentally bad everywhere, but on a flag it is.
*Corrections* to be pinned here!
I'll start by adding some nuanced points that couldn't quite fit the script:
- My perspective comes as a graphic designer and branding specialist with almost two decades of experience. I've edited and written dozens of design guidelines and likely read hundreds, ranging from broad "visual identity guidelines" to specific ones for everything from vehicle branding, advertising campaigns, motion graphics, signage, wayfinding, app icons, etc. I bring that lens to my critique of GFBF, treating it as if I were approaching it like a design guideline. Though it's not a perfect genre match, I hope this perspective is enlightening, as it's not one I've seen shared on this topic before.
- While it's possible some designers did contribute to GFBF uncredited, the broader point is that NAVA is not primarily a design organisation. By their own description, they're "Flag Enthusiasts and Scholars," and Ted Kaye himself has no formal design background. Flag design projects aren't common enough to sustain a dedicated professional niche, let alone a specialist design agency, so it's remarkable how effectively it communicates its ideas about design.
- The Brazilian flag has lettering, and I don't think it should be removed. It works for various reasons: a) it's not a nametag, and b) it's not Helvetica. But mostly, it's one of those exceptions. I wouldn't highlight it in a design guideline.
- The redesign of the Portuguese government brand identity was rejected not just for aesthetic reasons; there were political reasons too, beyond the scope of this video.
- I've used the American spelling "color" because that's how it appears in the original. Try to remain unperturbed.
- 9:05 "Destinctive" a typo - mea culpa.
By the way, the Brazilian flag does not specify the font the text should be written, only the height of the letters and the color: green.
In my understanding, no designers were involved in the creation of GFBF. The last page of the pamphlet lists people whose wisdom Ted Kaye distilled (as he puts it). The names he lists are mostly fellow flag collectors who were on an e-mail list together in the late 1990s and who would meet up periodically.
I'd think Saudi Arabia (or the Taliban, ISIL, or Hamas) is the more obvious "has text on it" example than Brazil.
But they're entirely text and it's culturally meaningful calligraphy.
The stylization on Iraq's is interesting because it's so different.
Adding letterings to flags, also complicates the manufacturing process, the flag of Saudi Arabia specifically states to manufacture the flags congruently in official usages, in vexillology terms, identical inverse and obverse, to make sure the script is readable on both sides. Such process makes the flag heavy to be flown and be picked up by the wind, as it is essentially two flag with identical, un-flipped charges (design) sewn together.
Looking at historical Chinese-Korean war banners, this was also the case. Japanese less, due to reliance on mostly-symmetrical Mon seals, even when Kanji is present within the Mon design. Though it's only done to ensure readability, as despite when flipped, non-Latin-based calligraphy, still maintains its aesthetic value. Latin-based characters suffer due to the writing system is entirely depended on asymmetry, while Kanji is contained within a block. Example, "q, p, b, and d' would look the identical and be mistaken from a distance when flipped.
9:05 Did you use the American spelling "destinctive" as well?
What's missing in the whole flag discourse in our society is a discussion of what state and city flags are even for. The arguments I hear about certain things like lettering or too much detail making a flag less "effective" don't resonate with me because as far as I can tell, flags serve no practical purpose; they're just cultural symbols to represent identity. Whether a certain detail is discernible from a distance is therefore immaterial. And it doesn't matter if the design or symbolism is immediately readable or understandable to a cultural outsider, because it's not about them, it's about the in-group's collective self-expression.
But I suspect other people would disagree with me about what a flag's purpose is. This is what we as a society need to hash out when talking about flags. Why do we have a state or city flag? What problems does the existence of the flag solve? I don't mean answering "How is this new design a solution," but rather, "How is the flag itself a solution," i.e. any flag as opposed to no flag. We have to answer those questions before we can decide how good a given design is, or whether certain elements (e.g. lettering) are appropriate to include. Until then we'll all just be talking past each other.
Thank you for the mention! And thank you for making this video. I'm glad a greater variety of views on flag design is being expressed after the GFBF monoculture of the past decade.
Your video was very impassioned and raised many points I hadn't considered before, so thank you for making it too. I think what you mention about a flag's purpose is a key challenge with flag design. There's no actual international authority on flags, only "enthusiast" groups. As cultural symbols, they really are a wide scope of different case-by-case scenarios - hence the footwear analogy. How do you weigh the needs and goals of different stakeholders in a project like a state flag redesign? It's not a simple question. Anyway, the rabbit hole goes deep. This was originally intended to only be a short video addressing your question on simplicity as a design virtue, but your video really stuck with me and it got me thinking deeper about some of the ways that GFBF is misapplied or ill equipped to address these projects. So thanks for inspiring this video, which I hope in turn can spark more conversation on the topic!
Historically the idea was to be recognised on ships from a distance and I guess the modern version would be getting recognised in a display at a parliament? Which isn't quite as crucial lol
Enjoy and didn't enjoy your video and your take. I feel like history is always changing, and it is a representation of the people now and their ideals. We cannot hold history as the proper path to do things for the people in the past who didn't always think that way! Either they held on to the past and preserved tradition or progressively upturned the old helm. We are revitalizing these symbols for modern people. In 100 years, people will continue to use them as representations of themselves, or they will bulldoze our grand efforts into something new anyway. The "seals on the bedsheet" were most often hurriedly made representations in the past, borrowing from another tradition of seals and heraldry to quickly make a flag that would suffice. Should maintain their poor decisions or separate the seals from the flag; administering importance to each in their own respective zone?
I'm really curious about your take on Chinese Provinces and their lack of flags. I feel like the American zealot would be vexilogically angry that they aren't represented properly! Through Chinese culture, flags weren't a thing in the western sense. Today, they still aren't much of a thing except within the military and as a national identity. I don't know where I'm going with this, I'm just curious on your take on the subject and how it would it the debate.
@@KidGibson Do you actually know the history of specific seal-based state flags, or are you just guessing?
I'd definitely disagree. There are a lot of symbols that can convey identity - seals, coats of arms, mottos, even songs. What makes flags unique among them is that flags can strongly communicate identity at a glance. The Prägnanz and distinctiveness that make a good flag distinguishable as a piece of cloth on a flagpole, even from a distance and under low-visibility conditions, also make it a great visual identification tool in a lot of other circumstances where you have to let people who you are as a group.
Yes, not every element needs to be distinctive and prägnant - the motto and the stars on the Brazilian flag are a good example. But even there, the green background, golden diamond and blue circle already do the heavy lifting of visual communication. You can certainly adopt a flag that lacks distinctive and easily discernible as a symbol, but then it fails as a communication tool.
You flirt with making a competing flag design pamphlet. It would be quite interesting if you were to publish that; it could be a useful source of moderation with the flag redesign people.
I'm such a tease. But honestly - I don't have the bandwidth to dive deeper on this, but I did feel strongly enough to make this video. Hope it inspires others though!
It's basically finished, just need some examples and what not. Someone should at least have the decency to steal it
It should be made, Linus. Great video! 👍
@@LinusBomanmaybe if not a video, a patreon post would do
Haha, „flirt”! I see what you did there! 🤓
Sir, a second anti "good flag bad flag" video has hit the discourse
This is getting out of hand; now, there are two of them!
MORE!
What‘s the first?
Probably one of JJMcCullough videos
This video seems less of a “GFBF is trash and irrelevant and offensive and harmful and ….” video and more of a “GFBF can be made better by ….”.
So why are there so many “minimalism is trash and ….” comments?!? The last 3 minutes of revisions all involved making extracted and remixed elements meaningful, not maximizing unnecessary shapes and colors!
I think that was the big difference between this video and Premodernist’s bashing of GFBF.
Linus did exceptionally well of being gracious and nuanced in his critique.
@@agbook2007 Linus is rather nicely taking the stance that variety in design is quite good for design in general, which is why he opened with the whole thing about orthodoxy and shoes. You see it in web design as well, where some people will quite quickly jump to calling a busier maximalist design "bad", because their school of design has a limited definition for "good." The old "rules are made to be broken" saying applies more to design than most other things.
the same type of people who a few years ago were jumping on GFBF with no real design knowledge or skill are now jumping on the hate train with... still no real design knowledge or skill. it's sad because this is one of the only GFBF critique videos I've seen that's actually any good, but a lot of the people coming here are just looking for something bashing it rather than actually caring about the craft - the awful JJ McCullough video is a great example of this.
Someone call CGP Grey, his sacred text is being called into question
To be fair, he also loves the Maryland flag so he knows that rules are made to be broken.
If it gets him back on TH-cam, I’m for it.
@@DNeonLampBut he still HATES the California flag, despite it even GFBF giving it as an example of a good design despite breaking a lot of rules. Which I’m like, sure, if you want to put it in C-tier with the other “not amazing but at least interesting and distinctive” flags I understand, but he’s like “NO! F Tier! Below even the Seals on Bedsheets! Because it has TEEEEEXT, and because my design sensibilities interpret a classic heraldry-inspired depiction of a bear as ‘frightened’ instead of the intended ‘frightening’”
@@DNeonLampI used to read the vexillology subreddit, and now started to wonder if the unbelievable Maryland fanboying is CGP Grey's fault, or just some inexplicable curse commonly befallen on flag enthusiasts... To me it's still a hot mess, but I can still feel the fingers of group madness reaching at me from years past, trying to convince me otherwise. But that's just peer pressure, not good design.
I'm sure he's furiously preparing a response. He might have something in even 2 or 3 years!
So refreshing to hear the perspective of someone who actually knows about design. So many of the flagsperts have no real design knowledge or training so their theories are just based on half-informed feelings based on a very limited set of case studies.
The idea that flag design should be based on case studies rather than the feelings the flag evokes is the exact mindset that leads these people to this foolishness. Trying to distil art into a set of best practices and committee decisions is how you create minimalist corporate logos and NAVA flags.
based jj
@@_xeere The point is not that these rules need to be followed, it's that Linus is offering an ACTUAL graphic designer's perspective on what "best practices" should be like.
@@JJMcCullough How many flags has he designed? While the technical knowledge of design is a good thing in this discussion, simply doing something similar is not a qualification. The original author of the rules probably knew a lot more about flags than Linus, and yet what he produced was of little, or perhaps negative, value.
Well I guess trying to ping JJ on this video is a moot point! Lol. I’m glad you saw this, and possibly more of Linus’ great work.
My children, gather round and I shall tell you about the year the Flag Wars began, and the TEDx talk heard round the world that started it all.
The flag wars have been going on at least since r/vexillogy came about, I am afraid.
Did the two sides of the war use flags to distinguish themselves from eachother?
@@Salsmachev Yes, but one of them doesn’t count because it has writing on it
I give JJ McCullough a lot of credit for moving the conversation forward, as you describe at the end. Once a major proponent of flag reform, last year, he released a video critiquing what he perceived to be the excesses of the movement that received a good deal of traction. The new, quite underwhelming Minnesota flag and CGO Grey's terrible, state-by-state flag critique video have been really galvanizing for what I'll call the "Flag Reform Reform" crowd, and I'm glad that the conversation is moving towards and increasing recognition of the complexity of design in context, beyond these childish notions of "good" and "bad" flags.
I also give JJ credit, but I also want to point out that people (mostly on anonymous forums) criticizing this "Flag Reform" trend have existed for some years before his video. Though he was definitely one of the first to thrust this perspective into the "mainstream", at least in the youtube commentary community.
Why do you consider Grey’s critique “terrible”? 🤔
@@glennac imo he sticks way too close to the 5 principles laid out in GFBF. He fails most flags for lettering or complexity alone. Something like California’s flag, which is a well loved and instantly recognizable symbol, is failed because of the text and general complexity. All while it does its job perfectly well. Simultaneously he makes some really weird redesign suggestions, such as creating adjoining flags for the north/south state pairs which remove their individuality. Tying two places together with one design is like saying they’re basically the same place
… I actually like that Minnesota flag
@@th.nd.r It's certainly better than the old one, but I think it serves as an example of how a design can be _too_ simple.
I’m very here for the “Good Flag, Bad Flag” Othodoxy backlash.
This is exactly how I feel about the present ways people are approaching flag design, namely CGP Grey.
I think 99% Invisible ultimately communicated the ideas of this pamphlet well without adhering to these rules in absurd ways. They actually tried to discuss a way to get started with flag design and NOT a grading scale of flags. I guess you get much more engagement if you do the latter.
Great response to the Premodernist by the way! I left a comment addressing how how the “simplicity” and “can a child draw it” rules are more about remix-ability, motif expression at various scales, memorability of themes, and usability in various contexts. The purpose of a good flag is civic engagement! Call it a form of branding, but people like symbols of things they value. It does mean something and that doesn’t always have to be bad.
I think the "a child could be able to draw it from memory" way of expressing principle 1 is more useful than principle 1 by itself, if you interpret it in a nuanced way. Like, the kid doesn't have to be able to draw it perfectly, just well enough that you can tell what flag it's supposed to be. Which also means the flag has to be distinctive and unconfusing enough to be remembered in the first place; think of how many European flags are easy to get mixed up with each other because they're just palette swaps of the same ultra-basic design.
A legitimately thought you were going to critique the designs of flags found within the Bible and was very confused because I didn't think there were any graphic designs in the Bible
There aren't flag designs in the Bible, but the Midrash designed flags for each of the 12 tribes as such: take the icon described in Jacob's blessing and put them on their gemstone's color. So, say, Reuben's map (that's the exact term used) was mandrakes on a red background...
From the title and especially thumbnail, I got the impression that some American nutjobs made a bible version with US flags or something.
Scott Wadsworth of Essential Craftsman cited a quote once that really sticks with me, from Harry Day the British WWI flying ace - "Rules exist for the strict adherence of fools, and for the informed guidance of wise men"
Unfortunately, treating rules as unbreakable dogma really extends to broken thinking in many parts of life. Great presentation and insight as always, Linus!
I have to say this is the most nuanced take I have seen on flag redesign, and I'm not at all surprised given your background.
I was half expecting the Dutch government redesign to pop up when talking about adapting a seal into a logo. It's an interesting case study of rebranding an enormous amount of ministries and departments with separate identities into one (two if you include military) unified brand identities. It's what the Nixon era redesign could have been.
I've always found it interesting how people are so quick to bash the "minimalist logo" trend, but everyone seems to like e.g. the Japanese prefecture flags.
Instead of "seals on a bedsheet", we now have "logos on a rectangle".
the minimalist seals in japan has traditions that date back to the old samurai clan symbols. It's based on traditions, not a trend.
I can't quite tell most of them apart but I feel like it's something I could easily memorise just cos the colours are so distinctive, I remember Hiroshima cos it's purple with three arrows and their soccer team is SanFrecce Hiroshima for example
@@justinw1554 exactly. And the prefecture flags additionally make sense in a simple form because they fit together as a set.
If a single US state redesigns its flag, then it has to stand on its own. But if the US decided to redesign every state flag at once, then there would be a good case to treat them as a set with a coherent overarching style. Which in turn lends itself to using a fairly simple design pattern.
If the logo is good enough just putting it on a rectangle looks great. The main problem with the "seals on a bedsheet" flags is the seals.
@@justinw1554 Actually, a lot of modern prefectural seals aren't like the clan Mon, but are really stylized versions of Kanji or just regular logo designs. There's nothing particularly Mon-derived in the flag of Aomori, for instance, but it is indeed, just reflective of Modern era design trends as used by designers within Japan's cultural sphere.
the last part of the GFBF is the best part. i wholeheartedly disagree with the idea of not showing exceptions because "it's an unspoken rule". the pamphlet was clearly communicating that good flag design can break all the rules, which is very very important, since this isn't aimed at just designers, but a more general public. they've always been guidelines and im not a fan of the idea that the pamphlet somehow promotes strict adherence to any of them.
Wow. My country of Dominica is goven as an example of a bad flag in GFBF for using too many colours- but the colours are wrong on the pamphlet 🇩🇲
Naturally I'm defensive, but I've always felt the ribbons and the green are doing the work- with the detail on parrot as a bit of a plus.
Like Spain's flag contains green 🇪🇸 if you look closely at the crest, but its the triband that makes it iconic.
(great video and measured response, I'm just heated)
Purple is pretty distinctive!
Good pamphlet, bad pamphlet
Oh boy, vexillology fights! I'm here for it!
Thank you thank you THANK YOU for putting the most coherent voice yet to all my thoughts on GFBF. Currently working on something in Pennsylvania and this video is now on my list of things decision-makers *need* to see.
This absolutely is an insightful way of presenting the FULL picture of subject.
Well done, Linus! 🎉
You're saying it's not kind to critique bad examples, but that's what you mostly do on your channel and that's what makes your channel so fun to watch!
Rules for thee and not for me! ;) But honestly, I was specifically talking about in the context of design guidelines. But there's definitely entertainment value in critiquing bad examples, at least, I hope!
That pamphlet is basically 2 points disguised as 5. 1. Keep it simple. 2. If you use a symbol only use 1 because being simple is better. 3. Use no more than 3 basic colours because simple is better. 4. Never use lettering or seals because that would not be simple and rule 1 says keep it simple. 5. Be distinctive but not TOO simple. What is a group supposed to do with this information?
It's like someone heard about minimalism once at a conference and then decided to teach design to people while ignoring the problem to solve which is that there are thousands of countries, states, provinces, cities, schools, organizations and teams and if all of them change their flags to a 2 or 3 primary colour horizontal striped design with an icon in the middle we are going to have a lot of identical flags out there.
The funny thing about this is that we've already had historical examples of this. For instance, the flag of England (St. George's Cross) was used earlier (and still is used) as the flag of Genoa. Imagine if the Republic of Genoa was still an independent nation!
@@n8pls543 we even have current examples, with Chad's and Romania's or Luxembourg's and Netherland's flags.
I think it's interesting to look at car crests when talking about seals or coats of arms. A number of car brands started with seals and had to reduce them to fit in a center cap. Porsche and Cadillac both simplified and cut elements to make cohesive and distinctive logos.
And the Cadillac crest is utterly meaningless. The Porsche crest relates back to existing crest of the city if Stuttgart. Volkswagen also pays homage to the city crest of Wolksburg. Every state, hamlet, county or city has a crest and some are seeped in history. Some are surprisingly abstract, or nothing more than patterns (see BMW).
@@boxsterman77 The BMW logo's pattern is a tribute to the flag and coat of arms of the Kingdom of Bavaria under which it was founded (the name BMW, Bayerische Motorenwerke, means Bavarian Motorworks in English), so it isn't quite meaningless.
@@boxsterman77 Apart from the BMW crest being a clear reference to the origin of its name, i.e. Bavaria, how does VW pay homage to Wolfsburg? The VW logo is (and has been since the 1930s) just a VW in a circle. The city crest of Wolfsburg is a rather complex design but has no V or W shape anywhere.
Not to mention that the city of Wolfsburg is _younger_ than the car manufacturer, and was founded specifically to house VW, so if anything, it would be the other way around.
@@boxsterman77 The Cadillac crest is based on the Maryland flag
I’m honestly surprised that the principle you agreed with the most was the 2-3 basic colors principle - that’s the one I DISAGREE with the most. The sheer number of incredible flags I can think of with 4 or more colors or else non-standard colors makes me think that that principle is the most obvious candidate for exclusion
Did you forget the whole bit where he was talking about how the best flags are the ones that break from the conventions?
@@mylittledashie7419 fair point, but there are so sheerly many exceptions to the rule that I think to even call it a good guideline to loosely follow is too much. To be fair, I think the way he formulated it at the end, with like (I watched it yesterday so I’m sorry if I get the wording wrong) “two to three basic colors for the main field of the flag,” was a good way to put that and does generally work as a guideline with a lot fewer exceptions.
It’s a matter of symbolism vs. effectiveness. Good flag, bad flag is confusing because it’s meant to explain what makes a flag effective, but then also dabbles in symbolism. What you should do is read GFBF to understand effectiveness, and then read Brian Cham’s dealbreakers of flag design to understand symbolism.
Ignore effectiveness, and it won’t fulfill the purpose a flag.
Ignore symbolism, and the flag won’t be flown.
Well said! 👍
Thanks. This encapsulates my thoughts on how Good Flag, Bad Flag and Six Deal-Breakers ought to complement each other. I never saw these as conflicting and I don't like people hijacking my presentation/article as if it were some kind of rebuttal to Good Flag, Bad Flag.
One thing that I haven’t seen addressed that both Premodernist and JJ Mcullough bring up is why flags need to be “designed” like corporate logos. Why are we accepting the framing of graphic design as the appropriate one to apply to historical symbols like flags? I get that this is a graphic design channel, but I think Premodernist makes a very good case that historical significance could be more important than graphic design. By assuming that flags should adhere to graphic design principles and function as logos for a state or city, we’re implicitly accepting a capitalist framing that a state or city is a brand that needs to be represented as such. I would have liked to seen some attempt to justify why it’s appropriate to think of flags as needing to conform to a brand rather than just be whatever the city or state or whatever feels most comfortably represents them.
A "brand" is, in its essence, not something inherently capitalist or related to corporate. It's just the corporate name for meaningful symbolism to strengthen identity and cohesion, a feature that is strongly ingrained in human culture. As such, historical references often come from exactly that - meanginful symbolism that was a "brand" in the past. France's Tricolore is the "brand" of the French Revolution, coming from a symbol used by the revolutionaries to emphasise their common cause. A red banner is a universal symbol of the workers' movement, thereby creating a sense of solidarity - and serving as a "brand" for basically everything coming from that origin, together with stars, hammer and sickle, and the colour yellow as contrast. Many "overly complex" designs are based on coats of arms - which by themselves originated as "logos" that could be very quickly identified and distinguished.
All of these have historic roots, but they also work great as "logos" for their respective entities or ideas.
Graphic design principles don't exist because of corporations, they exist because they are based on human nature, esp. perception and memory, itself.
I really appreciate the time you took for nuance in your argument. A real breath of fresh air. Thanks for the video!
This video is an absolute banger, thank you so much!
I noticed that more complex flags usually only work when they are still a distinctive design when all the details are stripped away
For example Brazil becomes a blue circle on that yellow shape on green, or the US becomes a dotted blue rectangle on red/white stripes, number of dots and stripes aren't important
As a counterexample those seal on blue state flags become white circle or blob on blue, which on it's own is probably fine but there are like 30 of them and many of the seals aren't even mostly white so the blob hasn't got one dominant color
this is an incredibly real video to make, from a flag nerd of over 7 years.
One thing I noticed about many bad flag designs is that the problem isn't really with these guideline rules, but with more universal design principles like use of space and detail density.
Especially those 'seal flags' often put a highly detailed seal in front of a solid colour background (and often with poor colour coordination on top of that).
The result seems too busy in a small center while having a jarringly empty background.
Brazil and Portugal are nice examples to the opposite. They contain large shapes to break up the background and have a rising detail-gradient towards the center, rather than an abrupt 100% detail/0% detail-boundary.
While classic three-stripes designs, like those of most European countries, have the simplest solution by only having one equally spaced (more or less at least) level of detail. The flag of Serbia then adds one level of detail on top in form of its seal, which is nicely spaced and scaled.
Just a small observation, no shade thrown on any person, but I noticed that for a long time these design rules were cherished by many folks until just recently when a few folks made videos against them. Now being against these rules is fashionable. I wonder what exactly happened?
My guess would be that a number of state flag redesigns (namely Utah and especially now Minnesota) have ignited conversation around the simplistic style championed by GFBF. I think Minnesota's redesign has been especially controversial and has changed a lot of people's opinion on the GFBF design philosophy
I've noticed this stuff too, my interpretation is that it's been long enough since Good Flag, Bad Flag seeped into the public consciousness that now people are re-evaluating its message, which also works because (at least from my non-graphic designer layman view) design has swung away from the minimalism that was big in the 2010s, and the stripped down design ethos Good Flag Bad Flag argued for.
It's called thermostatic public opinion. 10 years ago almost nobody even really thought about flag design. Then some high profile influencers (like CGP Grey) drew attention to these guidelines and it resonated with a lot of people. It felt like a sort of hidden knowledge that explained something they may have felt but never really thought much about or articulated, and it caught on.
As a result it started getting it's own cult following, who had some political successes, and sometimes might have been a bit too zealous about it, which lead to some people thinking it went too far and offering some pushback on it.
Basically anything that becomes popular has a backlash. If the backlash becomes too popular then it too gets a backlash. And so on for as long as interest remains in talking about it.
Also a possibility, people thought these rules were great, but when it came to practical situations, they realized there were some issues
What happened is that doofuses like CGP Gray started taking it upon themselves to critique flags as a way of signalling their superiority in a very niche subject that most people are ambivalent about without bothering to understand how or why many “bad” flags came to look the way they do. It’s an obnoxious kind of cultural revisionism that assumes that there’s something to “fix” and that the “solution” is to be found in the rigid orthodoxy of a pamphlet that you have never heard of.
Logical to use are heraldry rules for colors. If there are two colors next to each other, like green and blue, put white or yellow two metal colors so you can break the 3-color rule. Which is the reason the South African flag works; they put yellow and white to divide other colors.
Edit: Heraldry was important way back in the battle field, so differentiate allies and enemy rules were to make them more aligible. Which sould applied to possible flag rules.
You know CGP Grey has been considering outlining a response to Premodernist ever since that video went up. He is surely within a few months of weighing pros and cons and deciding to plan the video. In three years he's gonna have a banger of a video responding to these attacks.
Considering how obtuse his first video was with an uncreative, strict adherence to poorly worded rules I doubt it.
@@pascalfibonacci I'd just like to quote a line or two very start of that video *ahem*
"[Designing a good flag is] a tough task, though not too tough with the *GUIDELINES* I gave you. One) Keep it simple, something a child could draw, *EVEN IF THEY NEED TO SIMPLIFY IT AGAIN* [...] 3) 3 colours or fewer, *UNLESS YOU REALLY KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING* [...] 5) Words on a flag: the *IDEAL* number is zero"
Wow, yeah, really "strict adherence" to the rules. Nevermind that he positively rates several flags that break the rules later on. Did you guys even watch the video, or have you just been told that some youtube guy is the cause of all your vexillological woes?
With so many people championing GFBF in videos out of principle for 'good design' it's nice to finally hear from a seasoned, professional designer.
Now I wanna see a long video where you share thoughts on the final designs of recent redesigns. I’m biased because I live in an area that’s had a few on the city and state levels in the past 20 years or so. Haha
I really enjoy this! The video makes a great compliment to to the Premodernist one, taking more of a graphic design approach rather than one based on history or material culture.
GFBF helped me develop a flag design project that earned me a nomination to join the AGI, but what a pleasant surprise to see you elaborate on some of the shortcomings I worked around while designing 32 different flags. Kudos!
I feel like “Good Flag, Bad Flag” has lead to a lot of bland/generic designs as well. Too reliant on geometric shapes for their designs as virtually anything else is frowned upon. Think the flag redesigns of Mississippi & Utah being better received than Minnesota’s. Or how the “ Appalachian” flag has been far less visible compared to the Cascadia flag despite similar origins.
I’ve never been so early to a Linus vid! Fantastic video as always, flag content is always fun to watch
@LinusFlagTips 😆
My favourite flag is the St. Pierre et Miquelon flag. You already know my opinion on this topic.
Excellent choice, the flag itself shows the story of the isles.
@@evanpereira3555 the flag just screams "diddly diddly diddly doo, we sailed the seven seas, also we have way too much lore so don't ask" like straight up pulling the Basque and Brittany into it like a pair of obscure historical flashbangs just to bamboozle everyone who sees it
I thought this video was gonna be about an edition of the Bible with a flag themed cover design and idk if I should be relieved or disappointed that it isn't 😅
Glad im not the only one 😂😂
I worry that in our effort to comfort really poorly designed flags and establish design principles to foster better ones, that we become rigid and dogmatic, leading to an assembly of flags that look formulaic and safe. Sometimes it would be ok to exceed 3 colors. South Africa’s flag is just fine. Sometimes it should be ok to include letters. The c in Colorado’s flag is not an abomination.
People treating good advice as unbreakable dogma is a standard problem in most fields.
The next step after that is that an antagonistic group sprouts up complaining that the good advice (that was never intended to be universal) isn't universal.
Then it becomes the new dogma for a while that the original advice is bad actually because it isn't universally applicable.
Then the advice gets slowly forgotten about because people stop giving the advice.
Then somebody reinvents it. Return to beginning.
Often the simplicity mandate is justified by some naval flag origin story set on the high seas, and this is somewhat accurate for many famous National European flags. The problem is that this isn't the only origin for flags in Europe, many originate in rather detailed banners which would have never been flown at sea. This is especially common for the flag of a region or city within a larger nation. Many of these very detailed heraldry derived flags are rather popular, the Welsh love theirs.
A few years ago I started a project to redesign the flags of US/Canada states/provinces/territories. Mostly because I hate my own state's (Michigan). I don't think I'd heard of "Good Flag, Bad Flag" until now, but apparently I adopted some of its principles as rules - e.g. "no words", "no years", "no seals" - mostly because "rules" gave me the freedom to slash-and-burn if I wanted. Especially for the ones with racist history. However, I did make exceptions. One of my favorite things to do with seals was - as you suggest - to pull elements out of them... I found some neat things in some of the seals that yielded some designs I like a lot. There were also a few that I couldn't improve on, and I left those as-is. [link in reply]
I am imagining that hypothetical from the beginning.
On the one hand, no steel-toed boots.
On the other hand, no crocs AND no high heels?
I am sorry to those toes that will be lost, but your sacrifice will not be in vain. For good and ill, bring upon the Good Shoe, Bad Shoe design era.
I would love to see what you think of the Minnesota flag and seal redesigns.
Shoutout to the Republic of Venice, that has one of the most complex flags in history, yet, one of the most beautiful and distinctive.
What we need is a design guideline for design guidelines.
I'd love your guess as to why the final version of the new Minnesota flag is just two-color. The submitted design it's mostly based on included a tricolor area I very much prefer to the flat blue. It went from overdense to jarringly sparse, I think, though I prefer the new one.
I like the new flag; it’s an improvement over its old “seal on a bedsheet. But I prefer some of the other finalists in the contest.
No need to guess, the committee discussions that led to that change are on the public record. The short answer is that after reviewing several potential variations, the selection committee was swayed by a demonstration of the winning one where it was pointed out that, when hung in it's vertical orientation, it resembles a night sky with the North star (MN's state motto is "l'Etoile du Nord" i.e. "the Star of the North") over the Mississippi river (which has it's source in the state).
Personally, while I did initially prefer the tricolor, I have already seen variants of the flag that have put other logos (such as sports teams) in the light blue field, and it works really well. I like that our new flag has the flexibility to be adapted without losing any of it's defining characteristics.
@@farmboyjad That it still looks interesting when hanging vertically is neat.
CGP Grey has an amazing video where he explains why different states flags work… and frankly, don’t work. He does it for Canada provinces too.
Here’s the thing: The seals were never meant to be on flags & they rarely see common usage today. Nearly every seal flag is on a blue background as well. This means, from hanging on a flag pole to being an emoji, they are indistinguishable because most people can’t tell their own state seals… so then you end up with flags with a ton of words and numbers on them. Flags also shouldn’t have logos on them. Logos serve an entirely different purpose. Logos go on letterhead & the hang tags of merchandise. The state flag waves over the stadium or capitol building or elementary school.
Here are the list of rules most flag enthusiasts I know of live by… including CGP Grey:
1. Be distinctive or *purposefully* be part of a set. The state seal flags aren’t trying to be part of a set. If they were, they wouldn’t slap their names on them. The Scandinavian flags ARE purposefully trying to be part of a set.
2. Be identifiable while hanging limp from a flag pole. This is why state seal flags flounder as well. It’s all a sea of blue. It’s also why so many 2 color, color-block flags often flop too. Ukraine works because both its gold & its blue are incredibly distinctive. Poland/Indonesia & their red/white little friends aren’t necessarily bad flags… but red/white is such a basic combo combined with the basic 2 color that they all end up confused and indistinguishable while limp on a flag pole or shrunk to emoji size. The slight shade variations in red or minute aspect ratio differences don’t matter at that point. Poland’s flag is fine. Indonesia’s flag is fine. Both of them existing together in the same universe… is rough. And we know this because they both have been hoisted upside down at various international sporting competitions and accidentally exchanged for each other as well. Côte d’Ivoire & Ireland have also had their flags hung backwards or mistaken for each other.
3. The first two should combine in such a way that a grade schooler should be able to convey the “vibes” of the flag with crayons… you could also say that it should be able to be simplified to emoji form & still be identifiable. Honestly, whichever floats your boat. Both guidelines serve the same purpose. Turkmenistan can keep its carpets. In fact, it benefits from them. A child or an emoji can render it with a bold red stripe & that bold red stripe also helps it stand out when hanging limp on a flag pole.
4. When in doubt, keep it simple. 3 meaningful & differing from the norm shades absolutely gets the job done. 5 shades is also an option, but a gradient works best with this option. The LGBTQ+ collection of flags proves this point over and over.
5. You have to fundamentally understand what makes good design to break the rules in a meaningful way. Colorado and Ohio with their cheeky hidden letters… Maryland & South Africa with their bold, geometric shapes that stand out in any form… Ohio, Nepal, & Switzerland with their out of the box shapes and aspect ratios respectively…
6. It’s shocking that it must be said, but words have no place on a flag unless they so seamlessly integrate that you forget they’re there.
But without “breaking” any “rules” you can see the true beauty in simplicity when you look at Tennessee, Ohio, Texas, Minnesota, the backside of Oregon, Colorado, Wyoming if it would ditch the seal, Utah being absolutely schmick, New Mexico pulling out all the stops by managing to be bold & simple & identifiable, Arizona with the simple & striking twist on a two color, & Alaska making stars cool again.
Minnesota ditched their seal and their new flag is a STANDOUT!
Virginia is the only state seal flag that gets to remain a sea of blue state seal flag… it gets to keep its words too. You can’t argue with a slain king & the motto Sic Semper Tyrannis. I would insist it lose the word Virginia though. If it’s the only seal flag remaining… it stands out as much as it deserves to.
State Seal flags that could be redesigned using part of the seal: Delaware because of the unique background color & dope ship in the seal. New Hampshire has the makings of a really cool flag if they just take the center of their seal with the pale blue water, white sky, yellow sun & leave it at that… though a simplified ship would be okay. Just make that the whole flag. New York has the same situation as New Hampshire. They’ve got an iconic flag in the making within their seal. I’m certain a good designer or at least someone not as exhausted as I am can translate that sun overlooking the convergence of the two rivers in New York Harbor into a glorious flag. Vermont is in the same boat as New Hampshire and New York. We could get a trio of coordinating flags going. Kentucky, please redesign your flag just using your state flower. It’s pretty. Maine… I’d prefer just a moose. Its seal has a cute moose hiding in the grass. Missouri has something to work with. All that needs tweaking is the inside of the star circle. It does have most bears on a flag, but I think I’d prefer the left half of the inner seal just upscale to fill the star circle.
States where simple tweaks could improve flags vastly: Georgia… you almost nailed it. But so many words in bad fonts. Impossible to read online. Love the idea of a bold emblem in the star ring though. NC, lose your dates please. I’d allow the N & C to stay. But truthfully, I’d like to see SC and NC redesign into sister flags. North and South Dakota, please do the same. Rhode Island is fine… other than that word Hope. Just lose the words Louisiana. You too Indiana. Mississippi was almost perfect. Why the words? Iowa can keep its design, just swap the eagle with all its words for a simplified eagle in the middle and no state name! Ditch your name California. Oregon, just ditch your whole front side. Your back is dope. Wyoming and Oklahoma just need to ditch their wording and seal type stuff. The iconography is iconic otherwise.
Send help to Illinois. Alabama too, but for a whole other reason. Arkansas needs help too. I like the star diamond and red background… but that’s it. Wisconsin is one of the few truly hopeless sea of blue seal states. It’s an abomination. It needs a redesign to feature the farming of the south and the north woods. Why does Hawaii have the Union Jack on it? It was never colonized by the UK. Also, ditch that part and it’s a pretty cool flag.
I’ve run out of steam. But as you can see, I give this an inordinate amount of thought. I love South Dakota’s shades of blue and gold. I wish North Dakota would adopt the same gold and keep their deep moody blue and we get sister flags involving sun rays since they both feature sun rays too.
You get an upvote because…… that took some work.
@@stellamcwick8455 Thanks. I really like flags for their purity. The simple geometry. The clean lines. The emblematic iconography. I also really like countryball cartoons and when you’re consuming funny skits about real world country relations and stereotypes acted out by bouncy flag balls… you really pick up on the flags that are problematic.
@@Chaotic_Pixie Flags being simple and geometric I think is a more modern phenomenon.
The flag of the Serene Republic of Venice is an example. (And quite beautiful).
Especially today when many flags are designed via computers and vector graphics by people who may have never drawn. I think this leads to some oversaturation when it comes to minimalist, vector/geometric flag proposals.
Heraldry can get fairly complex and is the basis for many flags.
Overall, I agree with this take. But Virginia’s state seal on a flag is not very recognizable from a distance, in miniature, or hanging limply on the pole. I’d reuse some of the elements - they’re metal as hell - but simplify the design.
The problem with ditching the words on North Carolina’s flag is that it then looks too similar to the Lone Star Flag of Texas. I think it needs a more substantial redesign. South Carolina’s flag is great; I wouldn’t change it.
@@amicaaranearum Agreed about NC. My issue with SC is that most people don’t realize that’s a saw palmetto and not a palm tree. They expect it to be a flag for, well, not SC. I really would love to see our North & South sister states to have sibling flags, but that’s just me.
I’d genuinely love to see Virginia get a redesign that keeps it just as metal. A simplification of the seal could work. Maybe a sword jammed straight through a crown with the motto? It’s really the only motto I’d let fly I think.
Phenomenal video essay!! 👏
I'm so glad people are waking up to this insanity. no, we don't need to make every flag stupid flat modern looking corporate logo. when people like CGP show their ideas for alternatives I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. tradition>modern design trends.
glad someone is talking about GFBF critically and hoping to adapt it to newer thoughts of design and other stuff
I was so expecting even a smidge of finger wagging at the CGPGrey video the whole time, but I guess you technically did it indirectly
Did he? When?
Fascinating stuff, Linus. Thanks.
Although you lose points for the typography at 11:50! LOL
You've inadvertently explained why I dislike so many of the rash of new county flags we've had in the UK over the last few years: they look like logos scaled up. I don't think that's good design for a flag per se - flags need to be recognisable when not flat, logos don't. But I also think it's inappropriate for political entities older than most countries (older than UK or its nations in some cases) to have flags that look like they were designed on a computer for a £100 tax dodge company yesterday.
Couldn't disagree with you more. I simply think flags are for the people they represent. If the people like the flag and use/display it, then that's a win, and the only win worth counting. OR we can apply your elitist standards and have a flag that is only used in government buildings because the average person doesn't care about it or like its design.
As others have asked, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on the new Minnesota flag specifically. I'm especially interested in what you think of their selection process; I'm fairly convinced that a large part of the backlash to the final design was due to how publicly it all played out. On one hand, I appreciate the transparency and amount of public engagement, but on the other I think it led to a lot of people who were not familiar with an iterative design process getting attached to proposed flags and inevitably feeling let down when their favorite didn't win or, even in the case of the "winning" design, when it underwent significant revisions before being finalized. If the final flag had been presented with no prior discourse, I think it would have been received much more positively.
For the record, as a Minnesotan, I'm actually really happy with what we landed on.
5:30 god not this topic again 😭 Me and my classmates were students from the head of the studio that redesigned and honestly we were very supportive of the new design. But yeah, like you said in the video and in the comments, there's just too many layers to this situation
Currently, the new design system has been fully adopted *except* the new logo, which just makes me so confused, god. On last school year it was a really heated topic in my college and was very difficult to explain to someone who didn't understand current design priciples how the new visual language succeeds in ways the previous ine didn't. Of course it's not just about the usability but it was very difficult to actually talk with someone about all of this
Anyways, thanks for mentioning my government's example :)
PORTUGAL CARALHOOOOO
The thing about a city flag I suppose is it won't be shrunk to a lapel pin or enlarged to the size of a football field. It'll be flown over city hall and other public buildings. It identifies 'local government in here.'
I think most of this video is good, but some of your points fall flat on their faces.
- Shoes serve induvidual expression. Flags represent communities. So flags should have mass appeal in the community but shoes only need to appeal to one induvidual.
-Flags are fundamentally physical media, not online graphics. Production costs are important. imo Printed flags look much worse stiched flags, so this should be a consideration. Even when online, (like as an emoji or wallpaper background) it is still a representation of a physical object.
- Lettering can be beautiful on flags by using caligraphy instead of typography e.g. Saudi Arabia. For an example with the latin alphabet, consider the first letter of a chapter of an old book.
- 5:20 spelling error
- I think you overemphisise adapting an existing historic 'design'. I think this is often a bad idea that leads to unimaginative uninspired flags. Using cultural symbols and colours is the important part, not the specifics of previous flag.
8:22 leganés getting a namedrop in a linus boman video is wiiiild ❤
a flag for an association is one thing, but taking the flag of a people or state and turning it into a logo is crass. a seal on a solid colour is a stately representation for a mature governance. it inspires a faith that the people beneath that flag are at least striving to be unhurried and effective stewards.
redesigning a flag to fit with modern perceptions strikes me as a foul omen for the priorities and maturity of the people entrusted with governance.
New state flags got me going "oh, another one of _those_ "
Great video! Something I would also consider is the other side of the flag, most flags have a flipped side. This is also why text or emblems are not a good idea in a flag. Backwards text is hard to read! Also if the flag is hanging from a pole and flowing in the wind, is it still recognizable? Does it look good or recognizable when it's sagging when there is no wind?
THANK YOU
In a world with 4 hour videos about copyright, I'm genuinely surprised people still worry about a 14 minute video. I guess maybe it's different audiences, but I can't imagine this video would have been made worse if it were over the 15 minute mark.
This dude should make more videos. 👍🏻
Oooo...... I was agreeing with every word you said until the very last sentence. There is no place for crocs. 😅
First of all, I agree wholeheartedly with like 99% of what is said here, ESPECIALLY the point about how it takes a great designer to make a great flag and the corresponding bit about breaking the rules.
I would like to ad however that there is plenty of historical tradition of text on flags in the "western world", one prominent example would be UK style heraldic standards, a type of flag that follows very strict design guides and features the representative's motto in bold letters. Similar cases can be historically be found throughout Europe, usually in form of mottos or prayers written upon war banners. Nowadays you'll primarily see text on flags in highly detailed ceremonial flags, that get carried into parades and such, for example club standards in Germany. I think this all plays into your point of what the flag is supposed to be used for.
This 100% needs to be made into an actual pamphlet. While the "Good Flag Bad Flag" pamphlet has led to some marginally better flags it has caused more boring flags than anything else.
Portugal mentioned, video liked❤
Comment so this video gets more views, this video deserves it.
Japanese kamons are so close to this subject. Would be interested to hear your take on these too!
The pamphlet is quite overdue for heavy critique. Honestly I hate it
thank you
As a graphic designer and vexillogy enthusiast I mostly agree with you.
However, i believe this pamphlet is not for designers at all. And those ones this 5 rules make their flag desings better.
Alternate title: Good "Good Flag Bad Flag" Bad "Good Flag Bad Flag"
I felt this video was a good adaptation instead of a recreation of GFBF. Very positive and constructive approach! Too much negativity on the internet so I appreciated it :)
I miss the 4:3 aspect ratio Linus. It was a nice throwback but I get that it's harder to frame a presentation like this.
Flag tastes seem to be changing a lot. I guess it doesn't really matter what you do, someone will hate it eventually. If you stick with it for long enough though, it will eventually become iconic
hi sorry but for the first 30 seconds i thought you were making an analogy to The Actual Christian Bible and got really confused about what this video's topic was.
Same. The thumbnail definitely didn't help with that. :D
JJ is crying out in joy rn
The core issue is what flags are used for. For example, I live in Colorado and see the State flag daily. I've also lived in States with "Coat of Arms" Flags and never once saw them. Is the Colorado flag better? YES, absolutely. Why, because regular everyday Coloradans use it often because of it's "simple" but recognizable design. Flags are for people. And it's not a debate what type of flags people like.
Invite Ted Kaye on! He'll probably take your call! He's very friendly.
Interesting. Something I was thinking about while watching was: rather than that a kid should be able to draw it, it should be able to describe it. The US flag can be described as stars and stripes. How many and in which order isn't that important to understand it. The rainbow flag has many colors, but is easy to describe. The columbian flag is simple and only has three colors, but try to describe quickly that the yellow part is much bigger while it also gets lost in a sea of flags with similar colors. The flag on the cover with three triangle thingys … I have no idea what those are supposed to be, even though it follows all the rules. Could just have been solid triangles and good to go. (No idea where to south africa in this idea. The flag just seems to work without much reason.)
How about a review of proposed new designs for the Australian flag?
JJ McCullough's vid kinda flipped my mind on this, like there's not a real purpose for city or state flags to be told apart when a two letter code or outline functions better on the web, but I completely understand wanting a flag that stands out better than a largely blue flag like the Australian state flags that don't even line up with state colours (QLD have a blue cross and NSW have a red cross...)
Hmm, I thought the description would link to that design website he mentioned at one point
8:22 The city flag of Oslo is still the old logo slapped onto a blue background.
I slightly disagree with your revised third point about seals. I would say “adapt OR discard” - in either case, never use an unadapted seal
Yeah. There are professionals that are experts on their subject. Linus is a designer, and he is far ahead of those other guys who wrote that pamphlet. There are some cases where amateurs are exceptionally talented and they will exceed regular professionals, but there are no cases where those amateurs are better than the best professionals.
HES BACK
I’m a minimalist and even I think the oversimplification of flags is too much. People complained when logos remove some details, now flags are becoming a few triangles and yet it becomes “symbolic”
I think having a 'code' as such is a nice base, but being far too strict on it means we end up with boring, corporate looking flags devoid of heritage or a link to the region is represents.
The iconic Provo flag is the best flag of all time imo, closely followed by Nepal.
How come the emoji version of the US flag only has 18 stars? I'd like to know who decided on that and why...
Your assumptions.
There were no technical constraints involved; no issue of losing fidelity when such teeny elements were added to the Unicode table.
2. No, it could have been easily accomplished and people could actually count the stars, even if they needed a microscope.
3. So it was a deliberate human decision to violate the image of the US flag.
4. And it was one person who did this.
5. And this one person had some ulterior motive, or at least some motive not readily apparent.
6. And this one person owes YOU an answer.
7. And there’s something about having 14 stars that requires explanation. Maybe it’s wrong to have 14 stars, even though there once was a flag with 13 and then 15 stars. But maybe 14 is some slight. Or some signal to some enemy. Or a way to control the weather.
8. And the motive that caused this suppression of stars was not the one which caused the the rendering of other flags, ones with animals, emblems, sun’s with faces and others with great detail to be not exactly done in fidelity with the official version many thousands of times the size.
Oh and there exists no flag emoji with 50 stars.
But in fact there are. 🇺🇸
Maybe your platform or font choice doesn’t feature it, but others do. So that should limit the scope of your conspiracy hunting considerably.
🇺🇸
@@boxsterman77 What conspiracy? I'm just curious about the emoji Linus used in the video. You made this wild, speculative assumption about the motivation for my question. I literally just mused on what the process for designing that emoji might be. Not sure how I offended you or what inspired this tangent.
I have thousands of comments across youtube and I basically never use strong language, but, honestly, people out there defending seals on flags can **** ***! (TH-cam suggested I change those words, lol)
The book was on the right track but didn't get the rules right, that there are "positive excepts" shows this. There should never be allowable exceptions; if there are then you messed up. The reasons that some complex flags can still "work" is because they were first to that particular pattern of complexity and none have since copied them. Remove a star from the US flag and no-one's going to spot the difference at the emoji level. People already have enough trouble telling Serbia, Slovakia, and Slovenia apart (and yet Czechia is well recognized).
There is still plenty of design space for complexity, for example seals are by their very nature supposed to be as complex as possible to make forgery harder. Complexity isn't fundamentally bad everywhere, but on a flag it is.
Also, as a Kiwi, flag design by committee is superior. Just ask South Africa, or check any flag design competition really.