Uyghur Genocide in China | How The Economist got it wrong
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 พ.ค. 2024
- There have been growing claims that China is now engaged in a deliberate policy of genocide against the Uyghers - also spelled Uighurs - in Xinjiang. However, while the term has been directly used by the United States, many countries are reluctant to define Beijing's behaviour in these terms. In addition, many observers - including The Economist - have argued that, as serious as the allegations of mass human rights abuses are, they do not qualify as genocide. But is this correct?
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In recent years, there has been growing international attention on the plight of the Uighers in Xinjiang, western China. This has led to claims of genocide. However, many feel uncomfortable using this term, arguing that it is inappropriate for what is happening. While genocide has come to be seen as a policy of mass killing, formally speaking it actually has a wider meaning. The 1948 United Nations Convention on Genocide defines it as a deliberate attempt to eradicate a group in whole in in part through a number of measures, including inflicting physical and mental harm, preventing births, and removing children from their group. By these standards, the allegations levelled against the Chinese government, if found to be true, would seem to qualify. However, under the Genocide Convention, states also have the obligation to prevent and punish genocide.
CHAPTERS
0:00 Introduction and Titles
0:53 Defining Genocide
3:20 Background to the Uyghurs and Xinjiang
6:03 Uighur unrest under Chinese Rule
7:05 Current Allegations of Genocide against the Uyghurs
10:25 Why is the term Genocide Contested?
12:12 A Case for Genocide?
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FURTHER READING & USEFUL SOURCES
Genocide Convention (1948) un-documents.net/a3r260.htm
UN Office on Genocide Prevention www.un.org/en/genocideprevent...
The War on the Uyghurs amzn.to/2M7gdFR
Genocide: A Comprehensive Introduction amzn.to/3qOD9sF
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KEYWORDS
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This is obviously an extremely controversial topic. The focus here is on how we understand the term genocide. It tends to be very narrowly understood. But the 1948 Genocide Convention actually defines it more widely.
Practical example of brutal genocide is United States illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003 where million civilians were killed. Or United States war in Vietnam in 1960's and 1970's. Or Pentagon and CIA supporting Saddam Hussein regime in Iraq-Iran war by providing it with chemical weapons to use it against people of Iran.
@@northernstar3960 that’s not what genocide is. Did you even watch the video.
@@northernstar3960 Also it’s interesting how your account has no profile pic, no subscriptions, no subscribers, no activity at all, except commenting on this specific video. It’s almost like the only purpose of your account is to go to videos about Uyghurs and try to minimize and shift blame from what is happening there.
th-cam.com/video/4CyV0VvAO48/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/tDKE0v6t0P8/w-d-xo.html
I think it’s really important to point out that it is not remotely a negative thing to realize that the broader definition of genocide makes basically half the nations on earth guilty of it. The definition isn’t broad, it’s describing a set of acts of violence that all have a clear shared end goal and patterns of application. You don’t need to kill a group of people to wipe them from existence, when you deny them the right to the expression and perpetuation of their culture it accomplishes the same thing. And yes, *most nations are guilty of this*. Canada, the United States, the United Kingdom, Australia, France, The Netherlands, China, Japan, Brazil, South Africa, Indonesia, the list goes on. This is not remotely an excessive or cynical idea, it’s an essential mindset to have for a better future. Genocide is so common bc it’s been a key tool in how states assert their own existence for many hundreds of years, and we want to *change that* moving forward. The term is loaded because it’s supposed to move us to action to do better, shying away from being harsh is failing to understand that demanding positive change is how change happens.
Very well said. Thanks for reminding us all about this crucial point. The purpose of defining and condemning genocide is to help humanity move past it into a better future for everyone.
Good call. Genocide is so common because it has been and is a key tool of statecraft. The whole point of defining it is to express the proactive intention to move away from it.
If everyone is guilty, no one is guilty. The UN definition is ridiculous. The basic assumption both it and you accept is that culture and life are synonomous and that all cultures are equal. They are not. Cultures come and go all the time and many are demonstrably not equal or worthy of survival. From a Dawinian, practical or moral perspecitve, many cultures definately needed to disappear and or ought to go away. This is not the same as physically exterminating everyone associated with the culture.
Also, discrimination against various cultures has not accomplished the same thing as physical extermination. This is an ignorant claim. There are many examples of attempts to destroy a culture which failed. The Japanese attempted it in Korea. The Americans and Canadians tried with the Native Americans, the Russians tried against the Poles, Muslims against religous minorities everywhere, etc...
Why would you want to protect a culture of death, such as the Aztecs or Maya or the warrior/death culture of the Norse, the culture of Nazism or Communism or that of the headhunters of Borneo, the Canaanite culture of infant sacrifice to Baal or a thousand others? Not all cutures are good, desireable, amenable to progress, or equal. Some are clearly better than others and in the competition of ideas, values, life styles, some win and others lose. As it should be.
@@thomassenbart Firstly the main issue with what you say is that clearly you don't understand the cultures you hold with contempt (infant sacrifice to Baal was roman propaganda, it nearly certainly isn't real, lumping Maya and Aztec together is just dumb and their "culture of death" isn't immoral per se even to modern western standards (only the human sacrifice part practiced by the Aztec is, I fail to see the moral wrong in ritualistically throwing a ball through a stone ring). And then you lump that together with ideologies and religion while strangely mentionning minorities in Islam which is just weird (in the most repressive muslim states converting to Islam when you are part of a minority gives you equal rights to the majority, religious fundamentalism means only religion matters, not ethnicity).
So I ask of you, what makes you say these cultures you mentionned are inferior to another. You have to prove it, quite solidly since you are advocating for their extinction...
Also the thing with ethnic cleansing is that it was actually unambiguously carried out in very few cases (the nazis, North America, some peoples in the colonial context like the Herrero and Nama, Rwanda, the Circassians and that's pretty much all I know of). Many massacres generally labelled as genocide weren't ethnic cleansing (the armenian genocide, holodomor, Khmer Rouge) since the aim was to target people for their ethnicity but not to wipe them out.
I agree, and as a Canadian I support the indigenous who call our land home in their struggle for justice. The struggle for what we in Canada call "reconciliation" is long and costly, and will probably take centuries to complete, but it is possible and human beings are capable of it. We are not bound to repeat the injustices of the past, and those that continue today.
Uyghur lifespan went from 30-65 age.
Uyghur population doubled.
Worst genocide attempt ever.
Documentation of proof please?
China not qualify.
But for US and Canadian government toward North America Native, confirmed!
And Australia toward indigenous, Tasmanian indigenous wiped out
Learned 2 things when I stopped by China 10 yrs ago - affirmative
actions (for schools) for 50 minority groups in China and no restriction
in child bearing. Our tour guide a local minority told me. Han people
had 30 yrs of 1 child policy and just recently only allowed 2 - em, I
wonder why no one said anything about genocide of ~30% of humanity for
30 yrs and counting? I am ashamed of our politicians. Like tibet, it
was a serf society (slavery) and all the slave owners are raising hell
because all the slaves are now middle class in China. Go see it
yourself!
You are right, I got your felling when I stepped out from China 35 years ago, western media got full of lies, they are always thinking people in China are not happy. I told my colleague I had great and tasty food in Chengdu, they didn't believe me and laughing at me, because they thought people in China were starving. For me, my family bringing all sort of food from China to me when ever they can, because they know, I miss them.
One-child policy, university entrance priority & all other affirmative action or preferential treatment policy for Uighurs & all other ethnicities have sidelined many poor & disadvantaged Han people for decades, and on going.
Exactly, no other country in the world is more favorable to its minorities than China. Yet, its actions are labelled "genocide". SMH
@@Mao11622 because China is about to overtake the US. Labelling some one violating human right is the cheap way of conducting a hybrid war.
So give a UN-based human rights team unrestricted access to the region. Shouldn't be much of a problem if it is as you say.
I can provide tons of pictures and videos of ICE camps in the US. I can go into my near neighborhoods and find people who have been in ICE. For some reason, people in Xinjiang, despite not having just as many cameras and iPhones and less state budget on police to suppress them, can’t seem to do the same. I’ve seen countless videos of Uighurs denouncing the claims of genocide made by western media, but never Uighurs promoting these claims, unless they have a direct payment connection to the NED. My skepticism would go unconcerned if programs like the NED didn’t have a long history of falsifying stories in order to justify US military violence, which itself has killed millions on millions of Muslims in the last thirty years.
I am totally agree with you. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
I am totally agree with you Thunder man.👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
China sucks at defending itself from propaganda. It needs to invest heavily in PR. Get it out to social media and western media. Expose US lies and hypocrisy.
Precisely!
The only logical, correspondent to reality comment in this whole video.
Uighur population, 4 million in the year 1949, 12 million today.
Professor James Ker-Lindsay, you cannot just say there is a genocide going on because some report says so, and your speculation on why some people are reluctant to call 'Xinjiang genocide" lacks evidences. I expected more from a professor, quite disappointed
China invited all nations to xinjiang to inspect the re-education camps. All western nations refuse to go then made up so lies about china not allowing them to inspect.
But muslim majority countries went and this is what they had to say.
OIC Report
Resolutions on muslim communities and muslim minorities in the Non-OIC member states adopted by the 46th session of the council of foreign ministers Pg6, Paragraph 30.
20. Welcomes the outcomes of the visit conduct by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; commends the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and looks forward to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China.
You say that china refuses to let the UN visit, this is clearly wrong? China has invited them twice and the invitation remains open last I read.
U still mad khabib ate mcgregor 😹
@@user-vk6ve5ip9m you think I care about McGregor? Lmao I'd love nothing more than to see Khabib fuck him up again actually
No, China has never allowed UN to visit otherwise it would expose the genocide.
Do you think China is stupid?
@@bruceli9094 no but he is a government agent and thinks you are stupid enough to believe this adult child lie.
The Economist is no longer reliable.
@fa q This maybe true, agree with you in that sense. More so when you run an article titled "Why it has to be Biden" 10/29/20. or as James mentioned in this video the definition of Genocide and what the Economist defined as Genocide. These two points mentioned may give you further insight on my sentiment.
@fa q "It (China) has forcibly sterilised some Uyghur women. But it is not slaughtering them." on Genocide terminology Economist Feb 13,2020.
Now after reading that excerpt from Economist January 22, 2021
"The confusion arises because the UN’s convention on genocide, which was drafted after the second world war, defines it exceptionally broadly, in ways that are quite different from the popular understanding of the term. It is not only killing that counts, says the convention. So do “measures intended to prevent births”, if their aim is “to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”. So does “serious bodily or mental harm”, if inflicted with the same aim, or the forcible transfer of children to a different group. Mr Pompeo cited reports of forcible sterilisation of Uyghur women to explain his use of the word “genocide”.
If this case than the Fmr Secretary of State is correctly using the term as defined in the UN Convention on Genocide not the "Popular Usage" and rightly so. If that definition has not been updated then it is the definition nothing to walk back by the current US administration.
James, you say conditions of genocide include “physical or mental harm, harsh conditions, preventing births, and removing children from the group”. ICE in the US has systematically done all of these things to undocumented people, do you consider the US to be carrying out a genocide in that regard?
I think many people’s issue with the label of genocide against China is that that label only seems to be used to describe US enemies, while the US and its allies actions are never considered genocide. What do you think of this perceived double standard by many?
Also, I think people feel we need to be careful not to play into regime change/warmongering narratives
Thank you Jake. Very good points. There is always a danger that accusations are made for political purposes. That is why it is important for there to be an independent and impartial investigation. But at the same time, we shouldn’t necessarily discount accusations because they are endorsed by a government that we might not like. Ultimately, it becomes a question of looking at the sources making the claims and their track record of credibility, looking at the regime facing the accusations and their track record of human rights abuses, and making an independent assessment of the veracity of the claims and whether that does in fact merit further investigation. In this case, my view is that it does.
On the United States and ICE, there is no doubt that what had been happening amounts to the gravest possible human rights abuses. However, I would not say that it qualifies as genocide as genocide clearly has to be linked to intent. (I did not go into this in detail as my videos naturally have to be manageable and opening up too many different strands always runs the risk of confusing people.) In the case of the detention centres I do not think there is the intention to destroy, in whole or part, the groups in question. So, while it is utterly appalling, and deserves to be condemned by any right thinking human being with a conscience, I don’t think it comes close to being genocide. I don’t think these are frivolous accusations that can be written off as politically motivated.
@@JamesKerLindsay appreciate the response, James, and keep going with these videos, i have a feeling you may be one of the leading voices on international relations on TH-cam if you keep up this style, quality, and output consistency
Let's not leave out what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. Does that count as genocide since the sweeping list describes what Palestinians are enduring as well?
@@BryanWong yeah, I would think what’s happening to them is much closer to attempting to destroy a culture and people than what’s happening with ICE. I’m curious what James’ take on this is
Damn, another ETIM + USA pre-war propaganda video
If I do maths like Adrian zenz I should be a millionaire
Truly appalling how seemingly no one is looking at the source of these ridiculous claims. China is definitely oppressive towards the Uighur minority but claims of forced sterilisation and mass incarceration are ridiculous.
@@mahmoudelbanhawi they are true there are chinese official documents which prove it. it is distgusting, the CCP commits horrendous crimes against humanity.
@@christianjanssen2946 what about Amerikkka???🥴🥴
@@mahmoudelbanhawi I guess official government statements aren’t enough proof?
@@PeterParker-mi7fj What about Neo-Assyrian empire?
You have to engage with the primary evidence rather than reports people make about this primary evidence. Most of it has serious flaws in its funding, methodology and results. Then because it is so flawed it doesn’t help in any human rights effort because it’s out of touch with the context and conditions on the ground.
In China, as a tibetan and uygur You may enjoy K-12 free education (particularly Kashgar area) while Han Chinese only have K-9 free and pay intuition fees for their kids at high school
2 You were born with 20 more points in national college entrance exams (Gaokao) than Han Chinese (It also applies to Kazakh, Tajik, Tibetan, Mongolians etc 13 ethnicities in total if both of your parents belong to this 13 ethnic category, if one of your parents is in these 13 ethnics, you get 10 nmore points). In China, everyone knows what 20 points mean in this exam since 1 less point may mean you can not cnter into the collcge you wishcd for. You are also entitled to additional points in cilvil service exam.
3 You're allowed to opt out of Gaokao in Chincsc and freely choose a separated Gaokao in Uyghur language for themselves (This is called Ethnic testing Ethnic E R). I have never seen any Chinese American take a separate SAT in Chinese or Latino Americans take Maths AP in Spanish. Have you ever heard of a minority student in US taking a test in his/her ethnic language rather than English. If yes, let me know.
4 You all hold bilingual national IDs in both tibetan and Chinese. I have never seen any American whose mother tongue is not English holds a driver's license in both English and his own language
5 You have never ever been really subject to one Child policy like Urban Han Chinese. In all, it's Han Chinese who are systematically discriminated against by Chinese government.
Tibetans truly enjoy a lot of privileges and preferential policies These preferential policies towards minorities are unimaginable in a western country like US or UK.,
Search the news, you will find some han students moved to xinjiang and qinghai and They illegally obtained minority identity in order to get into better universities
Minorities like Uyhur do have more opportunities than Han
Spot on. What you have is positive discrimination i China.
Anyone can easily fact check all the points you made, IF they are honest.
You didn't mention equalization payments and factories(government subsidized) transfers from richer East coast to Automious regions. Free or subsided housing, interest free loans to start small businesses for minorities... I have a few friends from Southern China, they can't stop bitching about it.
Your souce is questionable since it is from that particular separatist group. You should cite independent historians who does not have a conflict of interest.
i believe the physical mailing address of that group is actually Capitol Hill, Washington DC, USA.
if you are writing them a letter, do it in English, not the Uyghur language.
Why did China genocide the Uyghurs and Tibetans?
Well, let’s set aside the fact that we don’t use “genocide” as a verb! Do you even know what genocide actually is? It’s the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group. That is simply not happening in China. In fact, China does a lot to protect ethnic minorities - and even to give them preferential treatment.
I know that Hui Muslims in China enjoy a lot of religious freedom. Still doesn't justify it. Idk if you watched the video, he expand it well.
I wish there were justice for all genocides that have happened and happening. But then you'd see some countries like Sweden, Canada, Spain and most deviating, the UK and USA being taken to the Hague or similar court.
The only reason there was SOME justice against the Nazis after WW2 was because they lost the war.
Winners write history and don't feel the repercussions of their actions.
The CCP will not win this
@Muslimcel good joke China unlike the Soviet Union is a paper tiger which simply buys off and blackmails everyone, the Soviet Union did that too but it backed it up with military might. Now that the world’s Classicalist militaries have turned against Communist China, it will have no chance to achieve its goal of annexing Taiwan by 2049 and saving its legitimacy. The CCP will fall, America won both world wars and it will win both cold wars
@@TheLocalLt my cousin in the us military would like to have a word with you about that whole not backed by military might thing
@@johnbarker256 oh the threat is real, but the Soviets were pumping ungodly amounts of money into their military, neglecting their own people to spend 20-25% of their GDP on military
@@TheLocalLt so isn't the fact the chinese have had staggering economic growth and aren't needlessly spending money a bit scarier than a country that destroyed its self
Do you think Serbia was intending genocide in Kosovo during the 90s?
Kosovo was under absolute Serbian authority since 1912. Funny how the word genocide appeared when Serbia (foolishly) declined to implement the Washington Consensus.
@@neokorteks2009 Yeah, Kosovo was under an apartheid, xenophobic and repressive system. The sooner they got separated from Serbia the better.
You mean by the time NATO invaded Serbia, half of the Albanian population was already ethnically cleansed from Kosovo doesnt qualify at the very least at attempted genocide? On top of that, Serbia setting up in Vukovar, Croatia the methods of how it would achieve genocide and later fully perfected its methods in Bosnia which was found to be genocide. This was all earlier before the war in Kosovo, so yes Serbia intended to genocide the Albanians in Kosovo.
@@Sardiatae Go to Jasenovac if you want genocide
oostaashaaa
What are your opinions about the use of the term genocide in regards to the Srebrenica massacre? It seems to me that following the wider definition based on the 1948 Genocide Convention, that what happened at Srebrenica legitimately falls under the category of Genocide, yet it seems that the Serbian reaction against the use of Genocide is based upon a narrow definition of the term, thus settling on the word massacre rather than Genocide. In your opinion, would it be more accurate to call it a massacre or a genocide?
Thanks, Wesley. Obviously there has been a lot written about Srebrenica and many in Serbia contest the use of the word genocide. I think it is clear that it does qualify. The Convention talks of efforts to exterminate a group, either in whole or in part. A massacre aimed at the eradication of people because of their ethno-religious affiliation would clearly qualify as an act of genocide. This much has been determined by the International Court of Justice in its 2007 judgement www.icj-cij.org/public/files/case-related/91/091-20070226-JUD-01-00-EN.pdf
@@JamesKerLindsay thank you very much for your answer and the document! I personally used to think of genocide purely in the more narrow scope (such as the Armenian Genocide) and thought that the application of the term genocide to the Srebenica massacre was inappropriate, but after watching your video and learning the wider application of the term I now understand how the term Genocide can be legitimately applied to what happened to the Bosnians during the Bosnian War.
@@JamesKerLindsay I wanted to ask the same question. But wouldn't that then mean that genocide is committed by almost every side in every war, especially if it's a civil conflict? In Yugoslavian wars for sure.
ICJ did made that decision but how can I look at ICJ as impartial? Because according to them operation "Storm" isn't a genocide but according to definition you gave in this video it's prime example of it, isn't it?
@@wesleygiesbrecht4485 My main issue with it is that the same happened in many places to and by all sides during the same war. Srebrenica was the biggest by number of deaths in one place but the same type of thing happened all over, In Srebrenica municipality alone before Srebrenica massacre or genocide done by Serbs, Bosniak forces from Srebrenica did the same thing to surrounding villages.
By this definition every non individual killing, torturing or purging of civilians is genocide.
@@draganmarkovic491 I think your are right but overall numbers need to be accounted for. U cant speak of genocide if some villages were razed by soldiers, as that is the sad reality of any war, but if a nation decides (or tollerates) the killing of the civilian population or their culture (or any other reasons that makes them "different", so that their humanity can be striped away even in non heated conversations outside of war) its reaching genocide level. No matter how bad the intention, if only one follows up on it, u cant speak of a genoicide.
during the era of one child policy minorities like Ugyher are always exempted. if forced sterilization = genocide they probably did it to Han Chinese more than anyone else.
easy the CIA is spreading lies to demonize a new target
Enforcing a one child limit is not the same as sterilization.
You're correct. I know China must be doing this to ughyur but they did this to all of them
@@WW-ee6yy Didn't you read what he said? Minority Chinese includig the ugyhers can have more than one child, only Han Chinese, or in your eyes, chinese chinese have to obey that rule.
That's so true.
If there really is Uyghur genocide, we really need to help them, save them.
But please at least provide factual video / photo evidence. In this age of smartphone cameras everywhere, we cannot use "he says, she says" as evidence to attack a country.
How about saving the Palestinians and Yemenis? Don't forget the Afghans that the US are starving to death.
Journalists are not allowed free entrance to camps?
And if they are, it's a staged tour planned in advance. I don't see your point? It's not like the supposed genocide is happening on the streets of Urumqi.
@@citizenofterra basically you are saying if Journalists are granted access, it must have been planned, thus unreliable anyway. So what's the point of asking for access? Is it just to be able to claim they were denied access?
@@xsu-is7vq So a guided tour by North Korean authorities gives you a fair representation of N.K.? Even though you are not allowed to walk around by yourself? Interview random people?
You can't really film much in Xinjang. Police will confiscate your camera if they catch you filming something they don't want to be filmed. Worst case arrested.
you know nothing about the fact. 1 million in the camp? why don't you check the fact before you do your video?
When you mention the "prominent" genocides, why leave out the genocide of aboriginal people of North America and Australia? 95%, if not more, of those people were wiped out, likely with intent.
Due to smallpox from people’s who could not possibly know how disease worked, how to counter disease, or even how to weaponise it besides throwing corpses and belongings of dead people at enemies.
Sufficed to say, no it wasn’t a genocide, they had no idea that 90% of the Amerindian population could die due to contact and even less would be interested in doing so. Again there were many attempts to turn them into workers, subjects, slaves, and etc under European feudal rules. Such endeavours would not be undertaken nor would conversions be attempted if genocide through disease was the intent.
You know full well this wasn't a complete list.
@@illuminaticomfirmed6948 your comment didn't age so well EH?!
@@Mao11622 He's right though. Anyway the past is the past, the genocide happening China is 21st century.. China needs to be taught a lesson just like the Nazis
@@bruceli9094 The US literally killed 1 million Iraqis in the 21st century. Plus, the 'genocide' in Xinjiang is just a lie.
Great video. I see some Albanians claiming that Serbia committed genocide in the Kosovo War. Do you have an opinion on this?
I am not sure if you have both sided facts. You should invite someone who recently visited Xinjiang like Danial dumbrill. It seems to me that you focus on lots of media circulated in the West. Those materials you mentioned mainly are from a certain of institutions that they served for some governments. Interestingly and astoundingly enough, some claims are based on map pictures.
Yes you are right. The World Uyghur Congress, which is part of a separatist (East Turkistan) organisation that wants independence for China, is putting out this information. It's best to get the FACTS right from an unbiased Sinologist or an expert on China affairs who has travelled to Xinjiang and has a deep understanding of China. A couple of diplomats from my country (Singapore) who speak about China to academics and business leaders in Europe and the USA, have stated that there is absolutely zero evidence to these claims. I find this professor's work sloppy. It's especially troubling,, because he is spreading these lies on a global scale. If our educators have no integrity anymore, than we are all doomed.
Uighurs are among the few ethnic groups in China that were not subject to the 1 child policy. Uighur population have been steadily growing as a result, only to be halted by the country-wide decline in births, which itself was a result of education of people and especially women. The Uighur population decline is in sync with the general decline of fertility rate in China. Also, you can’t just say that the Chinese government forcefully sterilizes women. There is absolutely no evidence for this.
A few ethnic group. Dont you mean 55 ethnic group. China has 56 with HAN the largest. This is true. Uighurs are getting more educated and living in modern times. They have left the fields and work in factories, industry. They dont have as much children as before.
Of course there is. Just look at what happen with india and puerto rican.
Oh wait, thats not china....
At any rate, they make the accusation cos theyve been doing it.
Based on this broad definition of genocide, if anything, the Chinese government has been carrying out genocide on the Han Chinese population considering the one child policy...
Idk why doesn't the Chinese government allow for investigation?
@@aksmex2576And suffer the same fate as iraq regarding the non-existent WMD?
Would you say its forced assimilation ?
Absolutely. And cultural genocide.
Yes. The long term policy of demographic change in itself is evidence of this. But the more recent steps seem to be deliberately aimed at ensuring Xinjiang has an ever more overt 'Chinese' identity.
None of this is true.
@fa q China here presumably means "Han Chinese", the majority ethnic group in China that only comprises roughly half the population of the Xinjiang region, despite comprising over 90% of the population in the heartland of China (China proper). Saying that Xinjiang "is China" is not specific enough. Are you saying that Xinjiang is a territory belonging to China? If so, then you're correct. But if you are instead saying that Han Chinese culture is the natural culture of Xinjiang, then you are either misinformed or attempting to disinform. The Uyghur ethnic group forms roughly half of the population of Xinjiang and attempts to convert Uyghurs into "Han Chinese", whether culturally or genetically, can rightfully be described as "Sinicisation", which is a form of genocide that China is historically known for.
@fa q You didn't answer my question. I was asking "How do you define Xinjiang as part of China?" All that you have done is repeat the statement "Xinjiang is part of China", which I already stated was a definite fact in my initial comment. What I wanted you to explain was whether you thought Xinjiang was part of China simply in terms of the land, or rather also in terms of the culture, history and ethnic groups as well. The former argument is easy to prove, but the latter I would say is rather tenuous. You have made no attempt to prove whether Xinjiang is culturally part of China, at least in the sense that China refers primarily to the "Han Chinese" ethnic group, and you have made baseless claims of "CIA propaganda" even though the concept of "Sinicisation" extends well throughout China's thousands of years of history. I'm unsure of whether you simply have poor comprehension abilities or are deliberately trying to mislead people, but I'd please like you to make a second, more-well-thought-out response to my query. Thanks, and regards. May peace be upon you.
"Genocide " will eventually used to justify wars. I hope this does not happen as China is no Iraq.
It has been since the end of the Cold War.
Despite the new definition in 1984, it is undeniable that the word “genocide” is “extremely loaded” though. When you use the word genocide, you are already bringing the layers of emotions and memories from the history to this matter. Words like “genocide”, “concentration camps”, and even “millions of people” really need not to be used lightly and require concrete evidences.
Also the 1 million number came from eight people and some math applied to the general area
@@johnbarker256 and don't forget the hyperinflated number of 3 MILLIONS by the NED paid Rushan Abbas. It seems that China is not only good at building 2 hospitals in 10 days but also at collecting 2 millions more inmates instantly
welcome to Xinjiang, a beautiful place with friendly people.
Believe me, he won't go, because he only wants to believe what he wants know.
Wu Mao
@@bianxi4yt Why the fuck would anyone go to a country that kidnaps people. I don't need to go to North Korea to see the camps their either
@@ZbjetisGod Xinjiang is like anywhere else in China, better than before but less developed compared to 1st tier cities etc. Not a big deal, I just went there for work, just like anywhere else. But most people only get their knowledge from the media.
thank you for information
Thank you. I am glad you found it useful.
@@JamesKerLindsay thank you so much
"there is no doubt that human rights abuses are being commited" there is also no evidence of such abuses even all these months later. Antony Blinken and Pompeo are last people on this planet we should believe. Also as part of the people who were being ethnicly cleansed by Nazis and Croats, i can tell you Genocide has a very narrow and strict meaning. This play to change its meaning is disgraceful to all the victims of Genocide through history. Playing with this term for political and geopolitical game is for me a bigger crime than what is allegedly being done in China.
Did you missed on a word?
@Lemon- don't fret, dude, this professor just expounds this terminology Genocide for his expediency, initially he presumes Genocides really happen in Xinjiang, even if it is wrong, he could use his broader "genocide" label to back up his claims, like banning Uighur's languages , traditions and cultures as genocide acts, with reference to his broader terminology!
that is his sinister intent!!
Could u explain if genocide truly happened in China, then why uyghur population is increasing year by year? As for the women who has been sterilised, they already have children (2 child, were as Hans only allowed one) but refused to follow birth control policy set up by the country, if birth control is considered genocide, then do u know how many Hans was sterilised after they have one child? Your report looks impartial but with many missing data and other considerations, we call this bias, and worst of all misleading.
Was 10% of the Han population put in concentration camps?
Just so you know, it is called democide, like during the great leap forward where millions of innocent Chinese died due to government negligence and poor policies. I can't judge the country for its 1 child policy, as who knows how many millions would have been starving today in China as it prevented 200-400 million people from being born. So hard decisions.
@@aksmex2576 also, why only countries in the west accuse China and not the Muslim countries? Many Muslim countries have reform program for terrorists, why is it wrong when China do the same? Do u support terrorists? Do u think it is right to reform terrorists?
@@lewisliew6479 You said they did it to the Han people, that would be democide. Genocide if they target a specific identifiable group of people like the Uyghurs that are being put in concentration camps, you can put terrorists anywhere I wouldn't care, but children and women? that sounds distrubing. There are women who were raped in these camps and escaped, doesn't look good. Muslim countries are in the pocket of China, no way could they say anything without reprisal.
@@aksmex2576Do u know what is the difference between concentration camp and reform school? Many Western countries have compulsory schooling law, if your children don't go to school, parents get jail, so is this concentration camp to u? All Muslims countries supported China and you cannot accept that, so is this your problem or the others problem? TH-cam have so many foreigners tourists and local people post clips about their daily life in Xinjiang, go take a look, open up your mind, don't just let it occupied by bias, hatred and suspicious created by the western government and media, what the world needs is love, peace and understanding.
@@lewisliew6479 the nazis showed videos of how great the life in concentration camps were. Chinese police harass citizens even in the west, you know, to "check up" on them.
Why are Uyghurs unable to contact their entire family in some cases?
You are in denial.
You yourself admitted that the Chinese government is fully capable of doing things like forced sterilizations.
Interesting video, your focus on the term and definition of Genocide vs the alleged actions by China. I wonder if the term can be applied to what Israel is doing to the Palestinians in the westbank.
Yes hearing his definition that is the first image that came to my mind...
Yes, it can be applied to the Uyghur Genocide in China, the Kurd Genocide in Turkey, what Israel is doing to Palestinians, and Jihad. Just because the world says it knows genocide is wrong doesn't mean anyone actually believes it, especially when it comes to those who have power.
Some other examples include:
the Trail of Tears
the Soviets moving Muscovites into different parts of the Warsaw Pact
Internment
and the Armenian Genocide
@@Demonic_Culture_Nut only is there a genocide in XinTian. All the western reporting lead to one scolar Adrian Zenz beeing echo chambered in the vast industrial media complexe. It is akward to talk about something that has been show to be false reporting. It was akward from the start since Adrian Zenz assomption of millions of detainees relies on 8 whitnesses alleged escapiees not to mention Adrien Zenz shady background.
This segment is actually adding to the blury layers of information that we actually beleive only because we are inclined to. Culturaly but also due to ower social, political and economical circumstans. Western societies are lost and confuesed they need a scape goat to chase. That can easally lead to unnessary butcharies that wont' be fought nor by the people in command nor their children... History repeats it self.
@@sunseb5124 The horrible regime that runs China that killed 20 million of its own mostly Han people is no stranger to genocide. The methods they use against the Uyghurs is a continuous intolerance to any difference that makes the government feel uneasy.
How is this genocide.
Do you see vids of muslims like this from Isr---
th-cam.com/video/swpqoJhFe8M/w-d-xo.html
Judge first before you investigate! This the always the policy of imperial west. This is what happened in Iraq of the alleged weapons of mass destruction used to bond Iraq.
China is imperialist itself
Bomb, not bond😀
I really do agree with you, but please edit your statement to make it clearer.
我就说一句话吧……分析了这么多，还是没有分析到点子上，这个问题的本质根本就不在于中国有没有种族灭绝上
不知道你有没有看过《让子弹飞》这部电影里面小六吃凉粉的桥段
西方国家难道真的在意中国有没有种族灭绝吗？难道不是就是想扣个屎盆子在中国头上，把舆论战场转嫁到中国身上，使得无论这场舆论战怎么打，无论中国怎么辩护，中国都会难堪吗？
那如此一来我们还有继续辩护的必要吗？没有，既然你们的国家本身就是为了丑化我们去指控中国种族灭绝，那我们再怎么解释和辩护都是徒劳，不如直接果断点再把舆论战场转移回去
还有，我看到你在其他人的回复里提到了“wiping out a people through forced assimilation”，我想问你这是怎么同化的？强行把维族人变成汉人？
新疆的维语教学一直都在持续着，维族人的身份证上也是写着维吾尔族，也没有人去强迫他们放弃自己的身份，强行同化维族简直是无稽之谈，还不如说中国的少数民族政策一直在打压汉族
是的，你傻乎乎的辩解了，让他们成立调查组，跪求着让调查组确认不存在这些质控，然后人家又说调查组被收买了，然后又是层出不穷新指控...
Interesting. Have you been to Xinjiang? What are your thoughts on reports by Maxime Vivas?
Sure! He was there in his dream.
Great, in depth and well informed video. Thanks for making it
Thank you! Really appreciated.
Just talk but no proof.
James, really well presented case. Personally I do not accept all or reject all of it given biases towards China in western media, and China's own closed system. However, I have a comment on one of your point. "Forced sterilization on uyghur women". China had one child policy and uyghur region had 2 child policy. And forced sterilization reported across china as harsh population control measures. So how same treatment(or less as uyghur had 2 child rights compared to Han Chinese) on uyghurs constitutes genocide?
Thank you. This is a really excellent question. I think the key thing to bear in mind is intent, rather than just action. International courts have ruled that genocide requires intent. So, the question here is what is China's intent towards the Uighur people? This is the key thing to consider and when taken in light of wider activities that appear to be taking place, sterilisations could count as genocide. But the point I keep making is that I am not saying for certain that China is committing genocide. Instead, I was using The Economist piece to make a point about what international law actually considers to be genocide (and how The Economist was mistaken at a fundamental level) and to make the point that the easiest way to reuse the claims made by various organisations - many of which have a long and respected track record researching human rights abuses - the Beijing should allow a free and fair international investigation.
@@JamesKerLindsay So I say you killed a dog in your home, you should allow a free and fair investigation in your home. Next time when someone else said you kill a cat in your home, you should allow another free and fair investigation in your home. And next time, another person claim you kill a horse in your home, you should allow yet another free and fair investigation in your home. Where is the end?
You keep talking about Intent of Chinese Government. But why do think Chinese people should trust the "intent" of Western organizations?
@@sjsupa killing of animals isn't equal to systematic killing of humans mate
@@leaveme3559 ＯＫ。Then I say you killed a homeless person in your home without a shred of evident, please allow a free and fair investigation in your home to clear your name. And then, I will publish the titles of the porn movies found in your home during the investigation.
@@sjsupa sure come in....last thing I want is for my neighbors to suspect that I m a murderer....and hey I only watch online on incognito never download it so....
Hi James! The genocide of Uyghurs is non-existent. If you do a little research you can find out for yourself.
Chinese bots whitewashing genocide like it’s 1984
Do you western drones have anything else so say apart from "evil CCP, 1984, social credit +10" you're like little babies
- the Chinese government
Oh you did make a video on this topic, my mistake!
Hi. When I finished high school in malysia, I was fooled by my government that I won a scholarship and was sent to a barbed wired camp for 2 months. There I was held and not allowed to leave the premises. During the day, the hired british council tutors to teach us english as they were preparing to send us for studies abroad. During other times, we were given lectures by the government propaganda departments. We were forced to march by the army.
Did what I experienced qualify as genocide? I never agreed to be imprisoned and no where in writing or verbal did they say I would be imprisoned for 2 months as part of their scholarship program.
They spent huge money on me during those 2 months with their british council teachers. But yet looking back, I cant help to think I was fooled into a concentration camp.
disapointing…my previous comment just been deleted or blocked? free of speech is just a joke?
Sorry. I did not delete it. I don’t delete comments unless they are extremely offensive. It seems YT does this. Did it use swear words or contain a link? This seems to be a trigger. This happens a lot.
@@JamesKerLindsay James, Thanks for yourbreply。no ...my comment was not offensive and should be rational .... i am surprised that my comment was deleted. I will try to post it again
How do you know your comment is deleted? I want to know that too.
Even if you think you posted successfully, they might not able to be seen by others. This happened to me many times until someone told me. This is TH-cam.
Further more, it is well documented the world uyghur congress and the uyghur human rights project is under the same organization and highly funded by the NED. Ironically they are very open on supporting extremism in Tibet in the 90s. I wouldn't call such report as independently produced. As a matter of fact a court in the US also concluded there is a lack of evidence of genocide early this year. It's a controversy point but I can guarantee the US is not in it for the actual human rights issue, neither is the EU through its handling of the refuge crisis.
th-cam.com/video/ZUoAFbzv88c/w-d-xo.html genocide in Karamay Xinjiang
Hi James, you had approached this topic with a pre-determind goal - to argue that 'it is genocide'. I was hoping you would actually put forth all the facts including how some of the claims of genocide had been debunked. So I have to say this is not one of your better videos. All your arguments i have heard it all before watching BBC anti-china articles.
Cos...usa is paying 300mil/year to fund negative articles against china.
Why doesn't china allow people to investigate? There is evidence you just gotta look for it.
@@aksmex2576 Just watch some vlog regarding xinjiang. Lots of uyghur around. Ergo, no genocide.
@@eleethtahgra7182 lol wonder what would happen to them if they said otherwise
@@leaveme3559 Then watch the travel videos. Lots of uyghur means no genocide.
Do google its definition.
Thank you for the revealing thrust!
Thank you. It was not an easy subject to address, but it is so very important.
Please see in TH-cam "Fighting terrorism in Xinjiang".
Under the action of Genocide, Uyghurs population has been grew 10 times LOL
James, you seem to have some expertise in international politics, I also assume you can afford a return plane ticket to China.
So why don't you travel to Xinjiang and see it for yourself? As Lao Tzu says, "To walk ten thousand miles is to read ten thousand books"
Because from all the videos of Xinjiang that were taken from the streets of Xinjiang, it shows a normal place with people of all ethnicities going about their daily lives
So can you please provide evidence on the contrary? Because the only evidence on the contrary we have are satellite images and personal testimonies from few dozen people. None of which would hold up in a court of law, Which is one of the reason why the US State Department even claimed that genocide cannot be proven. pretty sure the US state department would know what is a genocide.
I think we both know that a foreigner turning up in China and saying that he is there to investigate accusations of genocide is really not going to get very far!
@@JamesKerLindsay You don't need any form of permit to go to Xinjiang, and since you're not a journalist, then you can just go visit Xinjiang on a tourist visa.
So when the pandemic is over, you should go to China and see it for yourself.
BTW, to ascertain the veracity of the claim of genocide is very easy. Since Genocide comes with the all encompassing dehumanization of the targeted ethnic group.
See If you can find Uyghurs on the streets of Xinjiang in cities and rural parts, going about their daily lives chatting in their own languages. Laughing or smiling, look at how they interact with police etc.
In that vein, you don't need to investigate more than just look at the state of the Jewish people in Germany in 1938 to ascertain that there is an active genocide or at least discrimination, because the active dehumanization, the active displacement have already started, the mass killings might not, but there are obvious signs.
So Xinjiang is being accused to be the place for similar crimes, though not as severe.
Just a suggestion, you can visit the more cosmopolitan Urumqi in Northern Xinjiang, where most Han lives and see how they interact with their fellow Uyghur Chinese, You can then travel to Kashgar in Western Xinjiang and Hotan in Southern Xinjiang to see places with a Uyghur majority, and see how they live.
Signs of genocide will be very easily detected, because the accusation of 2 million Uyghurs locked up would be 1 in 6 Uyghurs locked up. If you extrapolate that population to be the population of the USA, then that would mean every single citizen, man women and child of the top 20 cities of the USA are all locked up.
I'm sure you'd notice that when you visit Xinjiang.
@@JamesKerLindsay Your response is a cop-out. You're free to go to Xinjiang to see for yourself but you've already pre-determined that it's a futile attempt. So your mind has already been set. Out goes your impartiality as well.
Parties alleging that there's genocide going on (even if you take into account the broader definition of 'genocide') should easily be able to furnish proof. But there's none.
You cannot sit on an armchair and judge the reprehensibility of a state based on scattered accounts and political rhetoric. It's China's right to modernise the region and take strong steps rid itself of religious extremism -- something the west has failed to do. Who pays the price? The citizens who die under organised terrorist attacks.
@@JamesKerLindsay wow nice Video James I also obtained my medical degree in China it's a very secretive state and I hope that one day would allow flow of ideas and information.
@@vuyomajola7848 Not that secretive.
You should have extensively travelled across mainland China as a student, explored minority peoples and researched on history
China is dealing with the Uighurs far more hymanely than how the West has dealt with the extremist Muslim groups and their sympathizers. One just has to visit China and Xinjiang province in particular to see how Xinjiang Uighur Muslims and Muslims of other ethnicities are living in China. It took the approach of desensitizing potential extremists and sympathizers. It rounded them up and started a program to educate them not only about extremism but developing skills to make them productive members of the society. if there was any programme about sterilizing Uighurs how come their population has only increased at a faster rate than other groups in the same region? The claim of genocide falls flat today when we see how Uighurs are thriving in Xinjiang? They are managing farms with state-of-the-art machinery (instead of slave labour) to pick cotton and running other forms of businesses. I consider those Uighur dissidents in the West just like the Iraqi dissidents that were touted by CIA as witnesses to WMDs manufacturing activities carried out by Saddam Hussein's government. All that turned out to be wrong and those dissidents were exposed as CIA assets and not supporters of human rights and democracy in Iraq. In short, China has nipped the bud of terrorism within its borders unlike the West which, for its own hegemonic vested interests, seems is challenging it all over the world spending trillions of dollars that could be wisely invested in its own population.
Indeed, those “international relations experts” like he have never been to Xin Jiang or anywhere in China. The arguments and examples he used in this videos are solely tweets or from news outlets, what a shame that he now has become a full professor. I see the academy world is really declining …
Recently Google and Twitter announced that it will take down content that implies that there was no genocide in Srebrenica in the Yugoslav war. That might be an interesting video to make. If not, do you mind giving me your comment on that?
Thanks. I have been thinking about this. It is a complex subject. My own view is that it is an accepted fact that Srebrenica was an act of genocide. I know that this is contested by many, and a recent report casts doubt on this, but personally I don’t think Serbia or the Serbs gain from trying to fight this battle. In fact, it just makes it harder for them to cut through on atrocities committed against Serbs. More generally, what I find disturbing is the way that this debate is now being instrumentalised - on both sides of the debate - for clear political ends. This ties in with wider concerns I gave about the way in which reconciliation occurs in post-conflict situations.
@@JamesKerLindsay thank you very much for the answer! Sincerely, your newest subscriber :-)
Thank you for your research. But you are wrong. Genocide needs to be met with total revulsion and an instant call to action. The word needs to be totally and only describing mass killings. you will forever muddy the waters and muddy the reaction if you broaden the meaning. Words are cheap, their power is only in what they describe. if what they describe becomes confused and open to interpretation they become a matter for lawyers. The reality on the ground then falls into a black hole because some politically correct loony tagged a long list of pet irritations onto something repulsive to serve their own agenda. The result is actual genocide is hidden amongst the morass of arguments over what genocide is.
That's why it should be separated as "cultural genocide" and regular one.
@@aksmex2576 That's pretty much what ethnic cleansing is. Ethnic cleansing is a distinct classification from genocide, because it can merely be the dislocation of a population rather than the extermination of it.
@@Gustav_Kuriga I wouldn't say "merely", usually there is rape, murder, torture. That is why people feel the need to flee. I think Serbia gave us several examples of this.
@@aksmex2576 I was being relative to genocide, which is the intentional, organized extermination of another group. Both are horrible, inexcusable things that leave trauma on those who survive.
Yes, but what reports are you refering to? Nothing in the description, that woild be the least. Had you put the reporting references in the description this would enable anyone to follow the tread of information passing from one source to the other.
Right now you may only be participating , willingly or not, to a mass western midia echo chamber that may or may not have any kind of solid foundation other than political interest or psyco-sociologic inaceptance that other cultures can also have a say in the way the world can be interpreted.
The case of Adrian Zenzs' "study" being repeted on every "serious" western media outlet while not standing an honest questionning of the method he used to make his claims...
This echo chzmber has come to a point where the west is loosing foot of solid grounds, this is call pathology.
If the Uighur are in fact submited to inhumain treatments, what ever gravity it may be, than it is of the upmost importance that our reactions are in accordance with than reality, and shown to be so. You are not going in that direction with this "echo-reporting"...
You know nothing about Xinjiang
So there either is or there isnt. Which is it?
Do a video on how american sanctions against countries like Venezuela and Syria deprive them of basic medical supplies and other imports especially during a pandemic.
Is that not genocide when you target a country and cause them to lose their economy and basic medical and food? Please explain
"Look a squirrel!"
Seriously, this is a really crude approach. Focus on the points raised in this video, rather than trying to divert attention elsewhere. I am happy to cover other human rights violations by other countries, and I do so on a regular basis, but this is a video about China.
@@JamesKerLindsay
“Think outside the box”
you’re just a parrot repeating the main stream publications.
Trust ratings are down the toilet for mass media and you’re so called conclusions in the video and “fact” references are just based on these organizations
People are aware of these mass propaganda campaigns that are happening now with Xinjiang, just like they happened before the Iraq invasion. Its textbook.
Have some balls and do some real reporting on topics that actually need to be brought to light if you want to or you can just keep being a sheep
@@JamesKerLindsay Ha! At last you admit the video is about China, not about the definition of genocide.
Well, thank you for the honesty.
@@sjsupa Yes, accusations of genocide as they relate to China. Really, this is an utterly bizarre ‘gotcha’. Seriously, it’s not that difficult to understand!
@@JamesKerLindsay Well, you have been hiding behind the claim that video is a general academic discussion of the definition of genocide. Every time someone asked you for solid evidence, that was your typical answer.
Now you are admitting, it is all about China, nothing about academic. If I knew that before watching video, I would not have touched it.
It’s always a great day when you post a new video!
Thank you! Have a great weekend.
@@JamesKerLindsay To you as well 🙌
Please see in TH-cam "Fighting terrorism in Xinjiang".
th-cam.com/video/MXxWBNdR64E/w-d-xo.html
Read the rest of the coments in this thread , it will bring more light than the segment it self...
did you accidentally (or purposely), forget about the word "intent" in the definition?
A rather ridiculous comment.
@@JamesKerLindsay Are you saying only "action" is important, and "intent" is not important?
you should read up on the subject if you're not familiar en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocidal_intent
Am I learning something from a proven genocide cultured reporter ? You are amazing !
@James Ker-Lindsay, Have you been to Xinjiang, China?! It is so stupid that so many talks about Xinjiang has never set foot inside Xinjiang. I backpacked to many countries. The satellite image you showed is really an educational camp to that is part of the poverty alleviation project to help the rural Chinese to have an education and skills to get out of poverty.
Xinjiang has always been part of China, since the BC! So get this fact straight. During the Tang dynasty around 600AD the Chinese empire was even larger. Second, China did invited many politicians and country leaders to visit Xinjiang, unlike what you said where China refused people to visit Xinjiang. Third, most of the info you listed are old or false info, since 2015 until to now, there hasn't been any extremists attack in Xinjiang. Yes, there is prison at Xinjiang like every country. I don't think anything is worst than Guantanamo Bay.
Please stop trying to be like an expert in Chinese history and understands how the Chinese system works like most foreigners who are too arrogant and pride to even try to understand how other countries work. I would have to say you are no better than Adrian Zenz. If he wasn't paid by the USA, he wouldn't have wrote the false article about Xinjiang.
Why don't you watch these videos to understand what is really happening in Xinjiang...
th-cam.com/video/xKBTT827b84/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/nlCoabsjmPI/w-d-xo.html
If you are curious why the cotton ban in Xinjiang, read this statement from Skechers, which they were one of the smart company that actually did their own research before blindly following BCI false report...
about.skechers.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/SKECHERS-USA-STATEMENT-UYGHURS-March-2021.pdf
Yeah nd China is a Democracy propaganda bot
@@user-tt3xu2hf5b If you have the guts and the courage to face the truth, why don't you go to Xinjiang to see for yourself. The CPC have 95M+ members, which is the largest political member in the world in a country. In the recent years, most of the members are born in the 90's and 00's, this mean most of the people in China agrees with what their government is doing. Everywhere I backpacked all over China, I saw more happy people and united with their government than any liberal democracy countries I had backpacked. In any western liberal democracy countries, all I saw was homeless and sh1t everywhere.
BTW, the west is so mess up, cause of the way how the west operates...If the west doesn't stop to realize they need to stop being arrogant, naive, self-centered, and only knows how to blame on others to start improving the system, all western liberal democracy countries will continue to fail...
For starters...If you are not on denial why don't you watch these videos to fully understand why Xinjiang is being targeted...
@James, you should watch these videos before making another video about Xinjiang and please do better research and learn Chinese before you start to pretend to be an expert about China and its people, don't be like Adrian Zenz...
Lawrence Wilkerson speech
th-cam.com/video/xKBTT827b84/w-d-xo.html
Skechers statement
about.skechers.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/SKECHERS-USA-STATEMENT-UYGHURS-March-2021.pdf
Sibel Edmonds expose Xinjiang issue
th-cam.com/video/nlCoabsjmPI/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for clarification, nailed Ker Lindsay.
@@ArChi285 Thanks! I just reported facts on my research to understand what is really happening.
I don't know about genocide. but it is most definitely cultural genocide and forced assimilation
I doubt that. To be qualified as cultural genocide it must satisfiy two things: 1. the said culture is diminishing 2. the intention to do so. None of these happen anywhere in China. I think Western propaganda trying to make an extreme claim to make people feel comfortable to believe a more moderate claim even though both are lies.
@Robert- even if you presume its a cultural Genocide, but it is still a lie, Uighurs languages, cultures and traditions are robust and thriving,
learned Uighurs cultures are being preserved in UNESCO!!
The analysis of the situation in the light of the broader reading of the term must investigate also the scale-appropriateness. The question should not be - did we find outlier cases where, individual camps, their individual leaders etc. impose such, in broader terms, genocidal measures on some (or even quite a handful) of the inmates.
It should be: Are these broader genocidal terms, in particular the sterilization - applied systematically on a mandated wide-scale to the Uyghur population.
...
I have strong doubts.
It would be interesting to see a video on C.A.R.'s situation, where a group of rebels is threatening the existence of the state, or on d.r. of Congo's one where the government is extremely weak and the warlords are taking over parts of the country (also the italian ambassador was killed today there)
Thanks so much for the excellent suggestion. I will certainly look into it.
@@JamesKerLindsay sir why is there so many pro-CCP comments here ? Is it a cyberattack by bot army?
@@g1y3 It does seem like I’ve attracted attention with this video! Lots of comments. Few replies to my responses.
@@g1y3 Hey genious ,he was talking about China, and why are you here commenting and giving names to other people ??? You should be more concerned about the genocide committed by the US and still doing around the world.The Chagossians were brutally deported to Mauritius and are still not allowed to return to their Island even after a ruiling in their favour by the International courte of Justice.
@@g1y3 You are surely a follower of liar Pompeo ,who himself admitted that he is a liar.Remember the US has attacked Irak based on a big lie that Irak has weapon of mass destruction.
İf you can’t stop a genocide or abuse then let everyone know it, Hz Ali.
Another excellent video (been watching them all afternoon in the background) on a ridiculously complicated and complex topic. Its so rare to find a Western source that examines even a little bit below the most shallowest of surfaces and provides both pro and contra arguments; i would honestly play this in schools to kids. Well done mister Ker-Lindsay.
Is China committing a genocide?
I dont think there is a straight answer, and its probably a little bit of yes and a little bit of no, depending on how far you are willing to engage in creative interpretations and play with linguistics.
Some points that are interesting to me:
1.) The (ab)use of the "g" word.
Being Serbian from the Balkans i am very familiar with this phenomenon. Other than Romania and Hungary, every single neighboring country either officially claims Serbs committed genocide against them, or a significant political party on their political spectrum does so. Why is this happening? Well, there is something to be said about having the victimhood status, when you are a small country or a small nation. For example after Srebrenica, Bosniaks, for a short period of time, had become absolute darlings in the West, and as we have later found out, Christiane Amanpour in front of camera (telling the sad narrative of your side) is more valuable than at least 2 US carrier air groups, when it comes to generating public support for military interventions (CNN would never lie!). So why wouldnt every nation try to claim a genocide? Hell, look at this video comment section and straight away first post below your pinned post, you will see an Albanian asking if Kosovo conflict constitutes genocide. A lot of smaller nations fight for the "g" word victim status with religious fervor because its the fastest way to turn political will either into military action or into diplomatic activity, especially when you cant achieve your political objectives through conventional means (which was both the case for Serbia's neighbors and China's rivals, being that China possess a nuclear triad).
2.) Additional history.
When it comes to China, things get really complex and complicated with a lot of nasty history, and some parts you have stated. Of the things you didnt mention, which are quite relevant, it is worth saying that in the last couple of decades, China did not only settle some Han Chinese in Xinjiang; it is my understanding that they did this on such a state organized and massive scale, which is entirely unique to CCP, and wholly unheard of in the West, that the average Westerner probably cannot fully comprehend it. Most of Xinjiang is either Teklamakan - a huge dry desert where life is practically impossible - or mountainous and highland areas (Pamir mountains etc); basically its a extremely rough place where 100 years ago you had almost nothing there - including people (mostly descendants of the Turkic steppe nomad invaders that have broken into these areas like 700 years ago, since they are suitable as nomadic pastures). Couple decades fast forward from 1900s, CCP force-built infrastructure there (in a typical communist post revolution push), and only through sheer willpower and massive industrial effort, opened the region up and started building cities and settlements, which is when the population exploded (in 1912 it was 2 million, now its 22+ million) - and Han started being (force) settled into those insta popup cities that CCP is famous for. You mention i think that Han are now 40%, i believe this is a 20+ years outdated figure, last time i spoke to my Chinese guy, he claimed it was higher, but obviously the sources on the subject tend to be mostly in Mandarin, so my ability to come through them is limited. This is a phenomenon that some call Hanification or Sinification; its a pattern that has occurred in entire China, from the first emperor, all the way to present day. The Han conquer a land, and then start to culturally assimilate the natives, so couple centuries forward, the natives make 5% and Han make 95%. So now you have Mongolia the country, and Mongolia the state in China. If two Mongolias were to be united, Mongolian people would become absolute ethnic minority in Mongolia, and Han Chinese would become overwhelming majority (thats how large the population of Chinese Mongolia is by comparison, due to different developmental and demographic policies over last 100 years or so). And you will see this same thing in history of EVERY province of China, from Manchuria to Yunnan. Its what every Chinese government has done, from Ming, to Qin to CCP; hell it even happened in Taiwan with government in exile assimilating the natives.
3.) Resistance.
The very important thing you did not mention (or that i cant remember right now) is the counter Sinification movement that has existed in Xinjiang last decades, namely Uyghur violent and terrorist push back that has taken many forms, most frequent of which have been numerous knife attacks usually around mass transit in Chinese mainland cities (with many victims claimed in the process). Ever since the mess in the middle east that has exploded with US toppling of Saddam Hussein, invasion of Afghanistan and rise of ISIS, the Uyghur movement has also appropriated a lot of characteristics of the middle eastern Islamism movements; the fundamentalism, religious fervor - and the thing that is China most afraid of - practical military experience of having fought in Islamic State and Al Nusra.
4.) Chinese rivals.
At the same time that all of the above mentioned is happening, China is a rising economic and military power which has its horns locked with US over a number of issues, chief among them being the CCP's desire to end the Chinese civil war - in form of final destruction of Nationalist China (aka ROC) with seat in Taiwan - and the final removal of the last vestiges of Western imperialism (which is how CCP sees it) - Hong Kong and all its UK inherited uniqueness and cultural details that make it obviously and undeniably stand out of in sharp contrast to the CCP's vision of China. All of these are long term historical processes that i think should be quite obvious to any impartial observer. Which is exactly why US (especially under Trump administration) has started an aggressive campaign designed to contain China (and especially sabotage the Belt and Road project), while avoiding military confrontation. And what it is that US does when US wants to hurt an opponent, without directly engaging in military confrontation? Soft power. So US started doing what US has been doing to Soviet Union and Russia (after Crimean unification):
a.) - imposing sanctions;
b.) - engaging in full spectrum media smearing campaign (ie modern version of propaganda warfare);
c.) - supporting secessionist movements (including Uyghurs) and sowing internal dissent;
d.) - and creating a military network of alliances aimed to put China in a subjugated political and strategic position (essentially delay the inevitable moment when CCP will invade Taiwan).
5.) Where does all of this leave us / my current opinion.
With all of the above mentioned points in mind, i still think the answer to the video's title is "yes kinda, but also no, not really". Does China want to destroy the Uyghurs, in same way that Nazis wanted to destroy the Jews: industrialized process leading to full physical destruction? I want to say no. I am pretty sure that they are aware that such a process would be impossible to hide in 21st century, and that it would ruin their reputation beyond any hope of recovery. I think that what CCP is doing is exactly what it appears they are doing: they are literally and clumsily (on almost same level of inefficiency and incompetency as Soviet bureaucracy) using the old school methods of incarceration (labor camps or concentration camps, lets not dwell on terms) designed to re-educate and reprogram the Uyghur population en masse; CCP absolutely wants to commit a genocide, but not the one that people think of most often as you said (physical killing of people), but an actual cultural genocide. They wish to remove the Turkic and especially Islamic characteristics of Uyghur population, in order to remove their will for separatism and their connection to the wider pan-Islamic world because this is one thing that China is afraid of more than anything - foreign (read: American) support for Islamic warriors who would then be inserted into Xinjiang, supported by the friendly local population, and waging a never ending war of insurgency with CCP. Basically what Caucasus was shaping to become (second Talibanistan) before second Chechen war.
6.) Could i be wrong in my assessment?
Yes, i could. I think the truth is probably somewhere in the middle; we have to recognize that China is absolutely doing something that is completely unusual in Europe and Anglo-Saxon world; they are dealing with problems that we have only had in the Balkans and Caucasus (nationalism and Islam inspired/supported separatism and insurgency/civil war), and that there are third parties / rivals who have vested political, military and geo political interests to spin any information that comes out of China in order to push their own narrative (after gulf of Tonkin and Iraq's Weapons of mass destruction i dont believe anything any more). Could China be committing an actual genocide? Yes. Could all this "g" word throwing around be third parties engaging in smearing campaign? Yes. Which ones is it? Probably a little bit of both.
And thats why i think the governments that are taking the middle grown, are actually the wisest actors. You are not throwing away any card while maintaining every possibility to play any card in the long run.
Dear god what a good topic i wrote a fucking essay.
I wholeheartedly thank you for taking the time to write this essay. To me, someone who is interested in the truth--only to be reminded again that in this world there is only facts--you have provided exactly that (facts) in such a structured and straightforward way, but not only that, you have also been humble in admitting your limitations, while at the same time being solidly thoughtful in considering many angles and not skittering on the surface or hotheadedly taking side and using emotions. You sir are a credit to this whole discussion. You have another subscriber in me :)
Two possible way of handling terrorism, first method is to deradicalize, the second is to kill them all. China opted for the first, while many self righteous countries opted for the second.
@@Leongchor Best way would simply be to stop colonising Xinjiang.
@@N330AA Xinjiang is part of China, read your history book.
@@Leongchor Yes, it's a colony.
BTW, I really hope you land a tenure-track position soon, if you haven't already! And that you eventually win tenure! Best of luck!
Thank you so much. I actually made full professor. But we have a slightly different system in the U.K. I’ve rather got the best of all worlds now. :-)
question: has pompeo even stepped foot in china, much less xinjiang?
You do understand that this isn’t how it works? As Secretary of State he would have been given intelligence. This is basic stuff.
@@JamesKerLindsay US 'intelilgence', probably about as trustworthy and (in)accurate as US and other mainstream western media outlets.
my broader point was that there seems to be a lot of self-appointed 'china experts' who've never even visited the country.
the US and britain at one time were hawking on about 'weapons of mass destruction' in iraq which was the justification for military attack there. turns out there were no weapons of mass destruction.
@@JamesKerLindsay Is this the same US intelligence that said there were WMD's in Iraq?
@@kc2213 Yep, that's exactly how things work in the West. Do as I say, but not as I do.
How did this area not come under the UNs decolonization efforts?
Because china is not european
Thanks. That is actually a really great question. In many ways, it should. But the problem is that colonisation in the way we have come to understand it really relates to overseas colonies of the European powers. It does not apply to neighbouring territories conquered and annexed by countries prior to 1945.
All i heard are only claims, allegations and more claims, without any video or proof. What happened to innocent unless proven guilty?
There's a shit load of proof
The question to ask first what did the chinese government did to the Uyghers people that they didn't do to the Han people? Is the one child policy a form of "Self-genocide"?
The key thing is intent. International courts have ruled that genocide requires intent. So, what is China's intent towards the Uighur people? This is the key thing to consider and when taken in light of wider activities that appear to be taking place, sterilisations could count as genocide. But the point I keep making is that I am not saying for certain that China is committing genocide. Instead, I was using The Economist piece to make a point about what international law actually considers to be genocide (and how The Economist was mistaken at a fundamental level) and to make the point that the easiest way to reuse the claims made by various organisations - many of which have a long and respected track record researching human rights abuses - the Beijing should allow a free and fair international investigation.
Wonder why economist insists on ignoring the un convention 🤔
Yes, it was strange. It’s almost as though the person who wrote it wasn’t actually aware of the Convention!?
Isn't it obvious? They want to still be able to publish their articles in China ...
A cynical thought, yes I know, but one of the sad realities of being a corporation and doing business in the modern world.
@@JamesKerLindsay As usual my copy came late. I did find the argument odd - they concede that it is conceivable to destroy a group by preventing births (forced adoptions, forced migration and dispersion could be added too) but that "But if conventions are worded with unusual broadness, they must also be used with special care." And then goes on to note how it has been selectively applied. Seem to be doing the old liberal notion that you can't push China way and expect them to change but need to work with them and try to use the pressure from mutual benefit of trade etc. to soften their approach? I guess the idea is that to brand someone a genocidaire and then to proceed playing ball with them on other issues would open you up to claims of hypocrisy. I just don't think that this all that much of a difference given the different information control environments we live in between the "West" and China...
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I keep hearing this. I have absolutely no idea who he is.
@@JamesKerLindsay He is just some German Christian fundamentalist who basically is responsible for many of the mainstream lies about Xinjiang.
Thanks again. I really haven’t looked into him at all. The information I use is based off reporting by major and respected news organisations and by leading human rights bodies that I trust and respect. Of course, I’m willing to accept that they might be wrong. But until we have a free and fair investigation, and given that China does not have a great record with human right, I am more inclined to accept the word of trusted outside bodies.
@@JamesKerLindsay Bayarea415 has a good video breaking down various accusations.
In my opinion, based on the lies that have been exposed along with the fact that the US has falsified claims of genocide several times before (such as pre-gulf war).
Thanks. I accept that there have been lies before, but this is not one country saying this. It is a collection of respected news organisations and human rights bodies.
I need to hear what's broadcasted on BBC, I would go to BBC.
Very interesting comment section.
Uprooting and forcefully removed children alone, and not counting the deaths and suffering, would qualify many Western nations for such an honor. Australia, Canada, Spain, America, England, the list goes on. To lower the bar for the definition will carry many dangers to the countries that champion human rights. So tread with caution. It is a double edge sword.
I wonder the miseries crated by the human right cohorts in Syria could be categorized as such? I also wonder if the very countries which provided assistance to break up Syria could be accused of "indirect genocide" ? The fact that these countries now closed their borders to those Syrian refugees, leaving them stateless and endless miseries, could be accused of intentional genocide?
Please note that when you begin to use your loudspeaker, you want to sure that you are on solid ground. You probably believed that you are 100% solid, based on what your western backers told you.
Spain couldnt comite a genocide.
Its Dark Legend
Bruh
Your video has several problems. First, before 2015, China enforced the one child policy. Only Han Chinese must follow. Minority were exempted. Uyghur could have as many children they wanted. After 2015, the family planning policy changed. All ethic groups follow the same rules. Citizen living in city can have two children while those living in country side can have three. If you agree genocide has happened in China, Han Chinese might have submitted genocide on themselves before 2015.
Second, you missed the point that the Chinese has greatly improved the health care system in Xinjiang. The life expectancy of Uyghur has increased from 3x to 7x. If the Chinese wishes to get rid of Uyghur, why does the Chinese spend money to provide health care to Uyghur and spend money for their family planning? Just let them die more quickly by not providing health care. It saves money and more effective!
Uyghur actresses are very popular in China. The most 4 beautiful actresses in China are from the minorities in Xinjiang. 3 are Uyghurs. Do you think Chinese wish to get rid of those beautiful ladies?
The population of Uyghur has increased by 25% in the past 10 years. Genocide with a population increase? Is it a joke?
I cannot see the " intent" described in the article 2 of genocide convention. All the points above are always missing in the Western media because it can prove that it is not a genocide. It is also missing in your video.
Thank you very much fir the comment and all the points you make. I appreciate it. I always hope that people will use the comments to engage in debate politely.
I guess that I would make several comments in reply. As a start, I think it is important to recognise that genocide is more nuanced as an idea than many suppose. There is a tendency to equate it with mass murder. But as you can see, it also relates to wiping out a people through forced assimilation. This is the main point in the case of China. It is not that China is killing large numbers of Uyghurs. It is that it is killing off the Uygur people by deliberately and systematically destroying their identity. This is the real concern.
@@JamesKerLindsay You are wrong again! If teaching Uyghur speak Mandarin is equal to ripping off their identity, the English has committed genocide on the Irish, Scottish and Welsh too. The same argument can be applied to Hong Kong. Most Hong Kong high schools taught in English under the British rule. The only official language of Hong Kong was English under the British rule. Chinese was not the official language before 1997 even though 99.99% of population in Hong Kong's native language was and is Chinese. Is not allowing Chinese to use their native language in legal and government related business equal to ripping off their Chinese identity in Hong Kong?
So applying your argument, can you say that the British has committed genocide in Hong Kong?
@@JamesKerLindsay Where is your proof of systematic erasing of Uyghur identity by China? Have really checked? For an academic, you are really making silly assumptions.
@@JamesKerLindsay He emphasized the crux of the problem: " intent", which you keep Ignoring.
“academic” LOL
He claims that he allow debate, in condition that it's in English. They pretend to care and understand Urhyur people. In fact, they don't even know their lives , languages and their need. 😂😂😂
What am my thinking? They don't even care about their natives in their country. What USA, Australia, Canada did was to force their languages and cultures on their natives.
Todays, how many natives America speak their languages? How many natives Canada speak their own languages? How's their lives? Overall how's their education, social and political background?
Do some research and we will seen Don't talk so much with zero figure. Todays people won't believe bullshits talk anymore.
Oh boy here we go
Dig that likes to dislikes ratio.
Thank you for this video, it helped me find some clarity and parse out many of the thoughts I have been having. I think the other part of this that complicates using the term genocide is that many practices in the US also meet this broader definition of genocide. We can see this through ICE and the prison system. The forced hysterectomies should be a very clear met criterion. I personally think that we should consider what is happening here to also be a genocide. But by looking at it with that much nuance it puts the US in a position where we are coming in swinging against China for doing the same thing that we are doing.
Read the other coments in this tread, they wil bring light much more than the segment itself...
Where's you proof of forced hysterectomies? Like WMD?
Good video!
What is your opinion on Srebrenica?
Thank you Nikola. There is no doubt that Srebrenica amounted to genocide. This much has already been determined. The systematic murder of 8000 Bosniaks over the course of a few days clearly meets the definition of genocide. As it happens, I know RS very well and I know that many Bosnian Serbs are utterly appalled at what happened there, not least of all because it has now become a stain against the name of the Bosnian Serb people and has given ammunition for those who would seek to undermine RS as the product of genocide.
On a related note, I also think that other acts committed during the Yugoslav wars have not received the attention they should have. For instance, I have been planning to make a video on Operation Storm, the worst case of ethnic cleansing in Europe since WWII. This really does not get enough exposure.
@@JamesKerLindsay Operation Storm is a live wire, there are so many different angles on both sides, from tens of thousands of civilians fleeing on their own, to the murdered elderly and burning of Serb villages, to the Croat revenge factor for Vukovar and the accompanying ethnic cleansing of Croats from Slavonia and the Krajina to create a Serb puppet state, that I’d suggest you basically have to start the video with the 1992 Croatia/Serbia action, the 1993 failed/aborted Croat offensive against the Krajina puppet state at a time when Croatia was busy propping up their own puppet state in Bosnia, Croatia’s giving up of that client state in Bosnia to gain American support, America’s extreme hesitance to accept a military solution in Krajina even while re-arming the Croats, and finally the operation itself and the exile/ethnic cleansing that followed. It has to be put into proper context to understand why at that point ethnic cleansing was almost inevitable (which is why America initially opposed military action at all, holding out hope for a peaceful reintegration of Krajina into Croatia)
@@JamesKerLindsay Another controversial question for you James, though one from the history books.
As an Irishman, when I came across Lemkin's definition of genocide, I believed that the Plantations of Ireland in 16th and 17th centuries should be classified as acts of genocide, yet I have never come across scholarship indicating such. Would you agree that these were acts of genocide?
Perhaps the lack of scholarship can be traced to the controversial nature of the topic, it could easily be used to inflame further hatred in already tense area, over events that have happened 100s of years ago.
Also, as an Irishman, I'd love to see you do an origins of countries video on Ireland. There's a lot to uncover both within Ireland, and in the ambiguous status of the Commonwealth realms on the international stage, during this period. A video on the present and future of Northern Ireland would also be interesting.
Also apologies for the trolls that have appeared on this video. Thank for being able to tackle thankless tasks like this.
@@JamesKerLindsay Thank you James for your response.
I would really love to see those videos.
@@TheLocalLt Thanks. As always, I will try to approach it from a wider perspective and use it to explain that in many cases, the international community simply takes a step back and allows a country to get on with retaking territory. (In that sense, Kosovo is the real anomaly. I always suspected that this recurved the attention it did because Milošević had long since spent any patience anyone might have had for him.)
ppl who are concerned about the genocide should just buy a plane ticket to Xinjiang and experience what it looks like with their own eyes. you can book your ticket Expedia
How about Canadian on the first nation natives children? Should QE be responsible to it?
Great analysis in there James and thanks for your time.
Thank you so much for the kind comment. I really appreciate it!
waste my time! full of nosanse
The west is so good at playing with words.
China is good at playing with people’s human rights.
@@lincolnlog5977 I'm afraid time has changed. Today most Chinese people just watch the west's pathetic lies with amusement, you know, the western politicians and so called scholars jumping up and down, like monkies in a circus.
@@zihui1234567 It’s not pathetic lies when there is countless pieces of evidence to back it up. The pathetic ones are anybody who believes China’s propaganda. And you are correct in that the West does have its own propaganda. However, this specific incident has been corroborated by survivors, escapees, and private investigations. And I tend to believe those sources over western governments or the Chinese regime.
@@zihui1234567 Is that right? through media censorship and internet censorship I am pretty sure the chinese people know the least on whats going on at home.
@@lincolnlog5977 Show me evidence, apart from satellite images of buildings.
It is what you think without any ref.
Just discovered your channel. Very insightful and informative content.
Thank you so much!
Oh Hey, have they find the WMD in iraq yet?
I agree with the author that we need to have a broader understanding and interpretation of genocide under the original definition given in the 1948 UN Conventions. However, I disagree with everything else. Here are the hard facts that I believe, and not biased rhetorics and propaganda. In the most recent UN General Assembly sessions on human rights discussion, 62 countries signed a joint statement supporting China. Together with other countries deliberating at the UN sessions, there were over 100 countries on China’s side. This is compared to just 43 countries including the US and its western allies, who are alleging human rights abuse on the Uyghurs (Muslim ethnic minority) in Xinjiang. There is one critical fact that is often overlooked - none of these 43 countries is a Muslim country. On the contrary, there are many Muslim countries supporting China. Between 2010 to 2018, the Uyghur population grew from 10.2 m to 12.7 m (much faster than Han’s 8.8m to 9.0m). Between 2010 to 2019, Xinjiang’s GDP grew close to 3 times from RMB 542 billion to RMB 1.36 trillion. Such facts do not support the notion of genocide, as Xinjiang would have been beset with social unrest, refugee issues, poor economies, and a declining population. Time is the best judge. Given its pivotal position in the Belt and Road Initiative, I envisage Xinjiang will prosper even further with improving regional integration, trading activities, and infrastructure.
Agree with your comments. I tried to be as objective listening to Prof James’ argument as possible but failed to convince myself that he had balanced all facts in his analyses. At the end of the day, the definition of genocide is an act or acts that lead to the elimination of an ethnic group of people, which is not the case here nor supported by facts.
You have rightly pointed out the following: -
1/ the population of Uyghur increasing,
2/ the living standards of Uyghur improving,
3/ the favorable policies for Uyghur in terms of housing, education for children, social such as not limited to one child policy in the past, etc., and
4/ UN determination that there was no genocide and the support of all Muslim countries.
Very clearly, the West narrative, particularly from the US, ignores those facts and accuses China of genocide purely due to their political agenda and stereotype thinking. What the West had committed in the past in their home countries, e.g. what the US, Canada and Australia did to their indigenous people, should also have been occurring in Xinjiang. Similarly, the kind of systemic discrimination and prosecution that happened in their countries on their minorities, such as the blacks in the US, would deem to have happened in Xinjiang, thus in their mind fulfilled the broader UN definition of genocide. This view was not shared by the majority of the countries in the UN.
Having said that, we must acknowledge that there were likely abuses by officials in Xinjiang. In their eagerness to quell extremism, there could be numerous arbitrary detention without sufficient evidence. There could be physical abuses by the guards or unfair trials. However, such abuses are no different from the various abortion of justices in many countries, including the US where some states do not convict whites for murdering blacks and the injustice committed at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp.
While it is not a bad thing for China to face all those criticisms and scrutiny so that they are under pressure to better their system and execution and to bring more fairness and justice to the way they implement policies (including the fight against extremism and separatism in Xinjiang), the West (including Prof James) should also reflect whether they have the moral authority to judge or true knowledge to propagate those unsubstantiated statements. If one does not know but yet repeats untrue facts from BBC, etc., then he would be guilty of spreading the same lies
@@williamlay4236 Very well said and I agree with your comments.
Admittedly, China has had its own record of failures - the Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution, and so on. Just like any other nation, we need to learn from past mistakes (including those made by others) and strive to become a legitimate government for the people, of the people, and by the people.
I also hope that China is not just doing all these for its own people, but it is also doing it for the rest of mankind in things like - alleviating poverty, fighting covid-19, and maintaining global peace.
Smart man! has common sense!
Great video! Very useful. Thank you
Thank you so much. I’m really glad you found it interesting.
In order to qualify as a genocide, and recogise genocide for it really is - logically - these questions should be considered:
1. Is death penalty legal in that country? (If not, death is wrong in any way is wrong - whether or not it is genocide ie 1 death could be a genocide, especially if the race or ethnic group may have a population of only a few hundred people)
2. What is the definition of "crime" in that country? Crimes caused people to be jailed and jails are not hotels where you enjoy leisure - therefore accidents do happen (If innocent locals - ie those not guilty of crimes - are killed, it is definitely wrong - whether or not it is genocide). Determine why people actually died with facts and figures and whether it is due to crimes or the side effects. The term "genocide" connotes ill intention and criminal activity. Be neutral and objective.
3. What types of crimes warrant the death penalty? (If innocous deeds like spitting leads to execution, it is definitely wrong - morally or otherwise, though spitting or taking drugs may potentially cause health, hygiene or issues involving potential deaths). If too many people are being killed as part of a crime, perhaps the area of crime needs to be re-defined - and possibly a different issue the International Court may give their views.
4. What manner of equipment is used in the execution? (If the death is by 'stoning' eg a person caught committing adultery in Islamic or Jewish countries - and many people are killed this way, is it genocide?) Should not the government spend money and time building institutions to avoid extra judicial killings or re-education programmes? For example, the government could teach the local people not to play with stones. If the prisoners die in prison due to defective control issues, the International Court may give its views to the local Government. The problem needs to be defined instead of slapping a "genocide" label just because the problem can't be solved at first sight.
5. Should not genocide (based on the dictionary definition) be qualified by a certain prescribed number or percentage of death - whether morally right or wrong - and found to be statisfically significant? (What is the difference between 1 person killed in a population of 1 million, as compared to 10,000 persons killed ie if the killing is righteous? You just need to change the definition of crime and the judiciary system if the government wants to "kill" less people. And if the local government doesn't know how - it is where the International Court and lend its views.
If a country cannot have its own laws and everything has to be decided by an International Court - is that the objective of the UN? Just because the UN says it is a genocide, it is one?
In addition, let us considered the above questions in some scenarios
(a) If - terrorists are to be summarily executed (ie without trials) like what happens in US and the West (eg terrorist/ WMD campaigns against Iraq - and found to be flawed without apologies), because they kill innocent locals, is it considered genocide on the part of the government authorities? Or is it a different issue (just because the West practise it?
(b) What if the terrorists are captured and died in prison, either before or after trials to determine guilt are being carried out? Or should terrorist (or those who look like terrorists) to be killed on the spot, without any chance given to be reformed or the benefits of any judiciary process? (And - oh yes - if more passers-by are killed during terrorist attacks by either the terrorist themselves or stray bullets by government-appointed peace keepers?) Indeed the International Court can engage in discussions with the local government on how measures of punishment can be re-formatted.
It is philosophically right to do things right the first time. What, then, is the "first time"? - it is grouping and classification of people and educating them. Not killing them when we catch them doing the wrong things. Essentially this is what peace is about - not police fighting thieves or cowboys against Red Indians, like those in our childhood games. We should not be a world of catching people doing the wrong things but we should use communication and education to define common territories before punishment is inflicted; either in gun fights between government and terrorists; or terrorists killing local innocent people at will.
In additon to all the above, if "genocide" is an international crime, the "motives" for the criminal act must be identified.
If the government is improving lifestyles, healthcare, lifespan, population figures, education, etc of the same race (based on statistics), why should the race be subjected to genocide (ie especially when the numbers don't show it - in relation to the definitive population growth of the same ethnic or race?)
Or do you need to be academically correct because a prominent economist says so or otherwise?
Please leave the links to these information. Very interesting!
You didn't provide any substantial facts. All the narratives in your video were just repeated flimsy accusations copied from the western media that were all originated from the same group of a couple of organizations sponsored by the western (U.S.) military-industrial complex. Talk to someone who is real and who has been to Xinjiang recently. Where did you get the figure of one million prisoners? Let me tell you one thing as someone who knows the Chinese culture well, who knows the communist government a lot better than you, and who has been to China several times. China is a very different society, China is much different from the western world. You cannot simply project your western mindset onto the total different ways of social interactions in China. Have you ever been to China? Let me tell you this one thing: whatever restrictions the communist government enforces onto the minorities in China, the government enforces much harder restrictions onto the Han Chinese. For instance, birth control, the minorities in China enjoy much more freedom of giving birth to multiple children than the Han Chinese. About the re-education facilities, the communist government also uses the same tactics to reform many Han Chinese who are deemed to be trouble makers of the society. Those re-education programs are all short-term, a few month long. Many Han Chinese who are considered bad influencers of the society are also put into a short-term re-education facility to be reformed. The communist government wouldn't torture them or harm them physically in any way in those re-education facilities. The communist government would provide teachers and counselors to guide them to be on the right track. All these re-education programs only last at most for a few months. They would graduate from the re-education facilities and be back to their normal lives in good spirits very soon. This kind of social control programs are a way of keeping things in good order in China. You don't have to agree with this kind of practices. I personally have a great deal of reservation on this kind of governmental power. You can totally denounce this kind of short term confinements without due process by western standards. However, you just cannot say only the minorities in Xinjiang are treated this way.
Very well said! Thank you.
@james
The only reason why pompeo used word Genocide is assuming the same what Western did in America to Native Indian.
i’m starting a politics and IR degree in september and i’m so glad i found your channel! great video as usual, you always explain everything so clearly
Hi Lucy, thanks so much for the lovely comment. Great to hear that you will be studying Politics and IR. I hope you enjoy it. Good luck!! And do let me know if there are any topics that you would like to see me cover.
@Finn Hansen Not forgotten. Not ignored. But I did specifically mention that I was referring to the past century or so.
Please see in TH-cam "Fighting terrorism in Xinjiang".
th-cam.com/video/MXxWBNdR64E/w-d-xo.html
Please be careful. Find your own facts instead of listening to this so called Professor.
You are very good in framing your video in a professional n neutral manner. However, you clearly failed to take into account that much of the reports from the BBC and others are frabicarions which failed up to scrutiny. You have not look into the facts on the ground which could have made your video of more value.
I think a key problem is to give evidence for the intent to destroy the Uyghur people. I mean it seems pretty hard to refute the claimed intents to keep the population number stable and to fight terrorism. On the other hands, the actual measures imposed on the Uyghurs clearly qualify for genocide.
China has brought development to Xinjiang. No longer land lock..factories are moving there. Industry relocating. More and more Uighurs are modernizing and educated. No longer they want to work in the fields. They are developing careers and no longer limited to Xinjiang because the bilingual education. They can work anywhere in China which means they no longer have many children. They have a population boom before the modernization drive. Their decline in population have nothing to do with Chinese government force sterilization but in line with a society going through modernization.
Evidence is difficult because different people have different perspectives. The same person can also do different things at different times, under different environment, on the same issue. Pictures can be photoshopped - for good or bad.
There needs to be more definitive figures and facts. As a proverb says: " Know a tree by its fruits". You can't grow grapes on potato roots. And also seek to know how productive have been the efforts towards positive things, as compared to the negative sides. After all, nobody is perfect and good intentions may also have bad results - though we won't expect them in the scale of a genocide (which is why proven and definitive statistics by authoritative, neutral sources are important)
Know also the good things done by the country for its people and for different ethnic groups. Are there strong reasons for deviation, especially if a country is bent on doing good for the international community? eg China's economic involvement in Africa, Latin America, Asia and the rest of the world? Not to forget: the great improvement, dignity and pride China has gotten for its own people. (And yes - Uyghurs are Chinese, just as people of Hong Kong, Tibet, certain parts of Manchuria, Mongolia,etc - though it is debatable when talking about Taiwan)
Know too: different siblings in the same family can have different personalities, behaviour and different problems. There are good people.But there are also delinquents. China is a population of 1.4 billion people with 56 different ethnic groups and cultures. It is difficult to treat everyone the same
More importantly - go see it yourself. China is not North Korea or certain undeveloped, unaccessible parts of the Amazon or Africa. Even deserts in China have become habitable places.
@@maolo76 I kindly disagree with everything from your post ;) I believe most Uyghurs are not allowed to leave Xinjiang. I believe what the CCP does to the Uyghurs is horrible by any western standards, but I also believe that a major part of the Uyghurs gets used to this kind of life -- If you suffer for long enough, it is no suffering anymore. This is why the protests in Xinjiang can still be contained.
According to my knowledge, there is no significant drop in population size in Xinjiang, but a massive drop of birth rates, namely from 1.6 births/100 people/year to 0.8 from 2017 to 2019. The reason why this did not lead to population decline yet is inertia in demographics: The population growth from the last 8 decades lead to having disproportionally few old people compared to young people implying a lower death rate than one would have in a population of constant size.
On the other hand, in order to keep a constant population size in the long run with just 0.8 births/100 people/year, you need to have a life expectancy of 1/0.8% = 125 years obviously being far from reality.
I also guess that your picture how many children the Uyghurs had before the crackdowns is distorted: According to official Chinese statistics, the birthrates from 2000 to 2015 in Xinjiang were lower than the average birth rates in China in the 80s, i.e., after introducing the one-child policy. Therefore I do not agree with your claim of a population boom.
The claim that the 50% birth rate drop within two years is due to modernization seems implausible, as such a steep birth rate drop never happened in any other country since birth rate numbers are recorded.
The largest two year birth rate drop besides Xinjiang was less than 20%, I think in Taiwan in the 80s. And all modern countries have gone through modernization. Therefore, one would expect to have seen 2 year birth rate drops of around 50% at many different places in the world.
But you ignores the PRC's polices that Favors Minorities in China, such as except from One Child Policy, helps in College Admission and career advanced etc. If you level the Genocide accusation on PRC, you have to explain why PRC has so many polices clearly Favor Minority. Otherwise you are going to loss the Moral Power of the word Genocide, at least in the eyes of Chinese People.
International law on genocide has been carefully and precisely crafted for seventy years. Even the US State Department’s Office of the Legal Adviser recently concluded that there is “insufficient evidence” for the genocide claim.
Human rights scholars and lawyers frequently engage in nuanced debate about the appropriate scope of the term which can have severe political and legal implications worldwide, and they caution that there are serious risks to loosely using these designations. To express hesitation that events rise to the UN standard of genocide is obviously not the same as defending a government or claiming that events are not taking place. To reduce the delicate nuance of these important conversations to misrepresentations and dangerous accusations cheapens the very foundations and complexities of human rights law.
Very well said. I’d also like to add a question to challenge this video a bit. Even if all of the atrocities are exactly how you report them, can it still be called genocide if those same atrocities have been applied and still are being applied to han Chinese as well? It seems that Xinjiang is playing catch up in terms of state controlled fertility. Arbitrary detention and executions have been applied greatly towards the Han population as well.
Yes, cultural genocide to.