Although the episode was scrapped there’s still remains of this idea left in other episodes like The Doctor dances Rose “looks at you beaming away like you’re Father Christmas” Doctor: who says I’m not, red bicycle when you were twelve” Rose: *visible shock*
I hate the possessive angle that 9 had, it was the worst aspect of a fantastic (lol) character. He was modeled off of war veterans and made to act like one, so seeing him (played by a 40 year old) act that way towards Rose (who is supposed to be 19) quite literally felt like the show portraying a glamorized idea of a man with a mid-life crisis grooming a young girl. I understand that is partially the intent and it is remarked upon several times, but still. The Adam subplot always made me annoyed because it was literally just the Doctor being pointlessly hostile to a young man around Rose's age displaying romantic intentions for her. Even Rob Shearman thought the character was pointless, and I can't blame him. Say what you will about 10 and Rose, it never felt like he was trying to keep her for himself.
I'm glad that they canned this. Because yeah, the Doctor has their faults, but I don't want this to happen, ever. It would destroy the Doctor's character for me. What I could accept happening is if the Doctor ends up doing it without knowing, like for example something influences them (like telepathic manipulation, perhaps, including a mind-wipe at the end, which isn't done right as the Doctor's subconscious is fighting against the influence) and the moment they notice/fight off the influence (which should be quickly), they make it right.
@@thewholook Maybe, but as I said, they'd have to be careful not to paint the Doctor as evil, as in, doing it on purpose realizing exactly what they're doing. And the very moment they do realize what's happening, they should stop it. The Doctor has their dark moments, but purposefully manipulating someone's life to "create the perfect companion" that goes too far. That's way too dark. That's something the Master might do. But not the Doctor. Not without being influenced (as in mind control or being tricked and thinking he's helping) or not really realizing what's happening. The Doctor, the way I view their character, wouldn't do it on purpose. It would be a character assassination.
Frankly, I think this idea would've sunk the revival in its first season. The Doctor's no stranger to committing morally questionable acts for the greater good, but manipulating someone's life from birth without their consent to create a "perfect companion" (whatever that means in practice) not only sounds selfish, but downright creepy as well. The closest any of the NewWho doctors comes to this is 11 in A Christmas Carol. Importantly, that situation is borne out of desperation and compassion. 11 never forces Kazran to change, he just nudges him on a kinder path and tries to nurture his better instincts. It's definitely manipulative, but it's still a far cry from meticulously engineering a person's entire life to make them exactly into who you want them to be. Not to mention that would imply the Doctor was complicit in Pete's death, which I cannot see Rose forgiving him for. I suspect this plot would've left a bad taste in a lot of new viewers' mouths and made them jump ship. Add to that the Doctor and Rose's relationship in season 2, and the already bad optics would dive into the gutter. None of this is to say the idea would've been impossible to pull off, but I have a very hard time belieiving it would've gone over well.
Unlikely going to be forgotten anytime soon, Russell said he doesn’t want to undo the work that was done with it, doesn’t mean he’ll address it too much but considering we’re 4 episodes in to RTD2 era and he’s mentioned it a fair bit so far I imagine we’ll hear more references or potentially more information at some point
It wasn’t disrespectful at all😅 I totally understand disliking the reveal that the Doctor was the source of regeneration, because it makes them the inherent reason for the existence & continued existence of the Time Lords, which makes them too important, so I fully agree that’s bad. But Pre-Hartnell Doctors & the Doctor being a foundling adoptee not native to Gallifrey absolutely fits & chimes with the Doctor’s character & the canon of the show. Speaking as an adoptee, being separated from our birth parents is a traumatic event, & that creates difficulties such as a fear of being abandoned/left behind, as well as lacking a secure sense of belonging amongst our adoptive family. To emphasise, it's not that we don't belong in our adoptive family because we aren't biological relatives, nothing could be further from the truth, it's just a feeling that naturally happens when we lose genetic mirroring, the people who look like us. Which results in these feelings of not completely fitting in, as well as loneliness, & this all fits with who the Doctor is, the Doctor has always been an adoptee coded character. They've always had a fear of being abandoned & finds it extremely painful when the people he loves leave him, they've always struggled with loneliness, & felt out of place on Gallifrey, lacking a secure sense of belonging amongst the Gallifreyans, which is partly because they disagreed with Time Lord code & behaviour, but it's always been deeper than that. The Doctor also has a deep need to feel wanted, & is why they continue to travel across time & space, adopting companions. The Doctor not being a native Gallifreyan doesn't mean they're not a real Gallifreyan. I've had to deal with rhetoric like this from some non-adoptees when they've asked me if I know or want to ever meet my "real parents" suggesting that because I'm not biologically related to my parents, that means they're not my real parents, which isn't true at all. Having an adopted identity doesn't mean it's not actually real, whether that's children being adopted or people moving from their native country to another country & growing up there, like Ncuti Gatwa for example, he grew up in Scotland so he's Scottish, but he's also from & was born in Rwanda, so has two & equally valid identities. The Doctor is a Gallifreyan & whatever planet they're from. The Doctor being revealed as a foundling is actually an extremely realistic & natural way to make the character mysterious again, because for a foundling, it's as if their life started at being found abandoned, because apart from birth family, nobody knows anything about what happened before their abandonment, why they were left in the first place. For a foundling, they grow up not knowing the basic fundamental facts of their identity, a person's identity: Where they came from, who their birth parents/family are, & the circumstances of their birth. Which naturally raises the question "Who Am I?" fitting perfectly with the Doctor's character & the titular question of the show: Doctor Who?
Considering that The Doctor and Rose end up romantically involved, I think this episode would read an awful lot like grooming.
I mean, it already is. Bro is old enough to be her ancestor.
That sounds terrible.
I wouldn’t want the idea of The Doctor manipulating Rose as that would lead to negativity
Although the episode was scrapped there’s still remains of this idea left in other episodes like The Doctor dances
Rose “looks at you beaming away like you’re Father Christmas”
Doctor: who says I’m not, red bicycle when you were twelve”
Rose: *visible shock*
I hate the possessive angle that 9 had, it was the worst aspect of a fantastic (lol) character. He was modeled off of war veterans and made to act like one, so seeing him (played by a 40 year old) act that way towards Rose (who is supposed to be 19) quite literally felt like the show portraying a glamorized idea of a man with a mid-life crisis grooming a young girl. I understand that is partially the intent and it is remarked upon several times, but still. The Adam subplot always made me annoyed because it was literally just the Doctor being pointlessly hostile to a young man around Rose's age displaying romantic intentions for her. Even Rob Shearman thought the character was pointless, and I can't blame him.
Say what you will about 10 and Rose, it never felt like he was trying to keep her for himself.
I'm glad that they canned this.
Because yeah, the Doctor has their faults, but I don't want this to happen, ever. It would destroy the Doctor's character for me.
What I could accept happening is if the Doctor ends up doing it without knowing, like for example something influences them (like telepathic manipulation, perhaps, including a mind-wipe at the end, which isn't done right as the Doctor's subconscious is fighting against the influence) and the moment they notice/fight off the influence (which should be quickly), they make it right.
I feel like it could've damaged the revival doing it but now is the perfect opportunity to re-evaluate that episode idea
@@thewholook Maybe, but as I said, they'd have to be careful not to paint the Doctor as evil, as in, doing it on purpose realizing exactly what they're doing. And the very moment they do realize what's happening, they should stop it. The Doctor has their dark moments, but purposefully manipulating someone's life to "create the perfect companion" that goes too far. That's way too dark. That's something the Master might do. But not the Doctor. Not without being influenced (as in mind control or being tricked and thinking he's helping) or not really realizing what's happening. The Doctor, the way I view their character, wouldn't do it on purpose. It would be a character assassination.
Im glad this didn't happen. I probably would have ended up not becoming a fan of the show if the main character was that manipulative
You forgot to show the unknown incarnations shown from the Mind Battle with Morbius.
This is what 7 was doing with Ace.
Yup, it was another reason why RTD wasn’t fully sold on the episode idea
Yeah. It was part of the Cartmel Masterplan which, if they had continued, would have been something very similar to what Chibnall eventually did.
Frankly, I think this idea would've sunk the revival in its first season. The Doctor's no stranger to committing morally questionable acts for the greater good, but manipulating someone's life from birth without their consent to create a "perfect companion" (whatever that means in practice) not only sounds selfish, but downright creepy as well. The closest any of the NewWho doctors comes to this is 11 in A Christmas Carol. Importantly, that situation is borne out of desperation and compassion. 11 never forces Kazran to change, he just nudges him on a kinder path and tries to nurture his better instincts. It's definitely manipulative, but it's still a far cry from meticulously engineering a person's entire life to make them exactly into who you want them to be. Not to mention that would imply the Doctor was complicit in Pete's death, which I cannot see Rose forgiving him for.
I suspect this plot would've left a bad taste in a lot of new viewers' mouths and made them jump ship. Add to that the Doctor and Rose's relationship in season 2, and the already bad optics would dive into the gutter. None of this is to say the idea would've been impossible to pull off, but I have a very hard time belieiving it would've gone over well.
I don't.
can we just forget the timeless child ever happened, it was quite possibly the most disrespectful things ever created
Unlikely going to be forgotten anytime soon, Russell said he doesn’t want to undo the work that was done with it, doesn’t mean he’ll address it too much but considering we’re 4 episodes in to RTD2 era and he’s mentioned it a fair bit so far I imagine we’ll hear more references or potentially more information at some point
It's a dumb reveal that only appeals to people so engrossed in fandom that they can't criticise the show or nerds who enjoy editing wikis lmao
It wasn’t disrespectful at all😅
I totally understand disliking the reveal that the Doctor was the source of regeneration, because it makes them the inherent reason for the existence & continued existence of the Time Lords, which makes them too important, so I fully agree that’s bad.
But Pre-Hartnell Doctors & the Doctor being a foundling adoptee not native to Gallifrey absolutely fits & chimes with the Doctor’s character & the canon of the show.
Speaking as an adoptee, being separated from our birth parents is a traumatic event, & that creates difficulties such as a fear of being abandoned/left behind, as well as lacking a secure sense of belonging amongst our adoptive family. To emphasise, it's not that we don't belong in our adoptive family because we aren't biological relatives, nothing could be further from the truth, it's just a feeling that naturally happens when we lose genetic mirroring, the people who look like us. Which results in these feelings of not completely fitting in, as well as loneliness, & this all fits with who the Doctor is, the Doctor has always been an adoptee coded character.
They've always had a fear of being abandoned & finds it extremely painful when the people he loves leave him, they've always struggled with loneliness, & felt out of place on Gallifrey, lacking a secure sense of belonging amongst the Gallifreyans, which is partly because they disagreed with Time Lord code & behaviour, but it's always been deeper than that. The Doctor also has a deep need to feel wanted, & is why they continue to travel across time & space, adopting companions.
The Doctor not being a native Gallifreyan doesn't mean they're not a real Gallifreyan. I've had to deal with rhetoric like this from some non-adoptees when they've asked me if I know or want to ever meet my "real parents" suggesting that because I'm not biologically related to my
parents, that means they're not my real parents, which isn't true at all. Having an adopted identity doesn't mean it's not actually real, whether that's children being adopted or people moving from their native country to another country & growing up there, like Ncuti Gatwa for example, he grew up in Scotland so he's Scottish, but he's also from & was born in Rwanda, so has two & equally valid identities. The Doctor is a Gallifreyan & whatever planet they're from.
The Doctor being revealed as a foundling is actually an extremely realistic & natural way to make the character mysterious again, because for a foundling, it's as if their life started at being found abandoned, because apart from birth family, nobody knows anything about what happened before their abandonment, why they were left in the first place. For a foundling, they grow up not knowing the basic fundamental facts of their identity, a person's identity: Where they came from, who their birth parents/family are, & the circumstances of their birth. Which naturally raises the question "Who Am I?" fitting perfectly with the Doctor's character & the titular question of the show: Doctor Who?