I'd argue that Warhammer is bloated, not complicated. Rules scattered across myriad sources isn't necessarily complicated. Poorly written isn't the same as complicated either. Poorly describing something simple makes it more difficult to comprehend, not complicated.
I've had this same issue with Two Hour Wargames, Ed Teixeira's writing style is nigh impenetrable, almost as bad as Phil Barker (famous for his DBA, DBM and DBMM rulesets), but once you finally make your way through the mess of their printed words, their rules are actually quite interesting and they flow really well, something you'd never guess from a first read of the book. OPR's rules, OTOH, are so easy to read and they're so well laid out, you can get a grasp of the flow of the game quite easily, which is a major advantage IMHO.
OBR reminds me of old warhammer. I remember the days when you had to be within 6" to charge and could only fire Assault or Pistol weapons before you did. So if you wanted to charge with your Marines, you were not going to shoot with them. Pistols were not standard. You moved 6" and then if you were within 6" you could charge. They did have initiative back then though, so charging your Marines into Genestealers was a far worse idea than it is now, where you can basically do that with impunity because for some reason Genestealers are not fights first and that still upsets me.
Alternate opinion: Some people enjoy the granular complex deep "Crunch" style of games such as Battletech. Others enjoy simple and easy rules. GW is currently trying to please both crowds and failing. 40k 10th isnt deep enough for the crunch folks yet too granular and complex for the simplicity folks. Why play 40k when games like OPR and battletech exist?
Warhammer 40k is easy: player A has their turn. then if player B has anything left on the table, then they get to use their sole surviving troop. IGYG format is garbage! buy the models? absolutely, they are fantastic. then, use ANY OTHER rules to battle the models! since 2nd version of GWs 40k, I won't touch any game that has IGYG format.
The same player that brought us all into OPR is also the one that bought the Age of Darkness box - then hired me to paint it for him. He sold off everything but the miniatures - and uses them for OPR. (Or would, if he hadn't been distracted by the Saurian Starhost....) He also used a bunch of 3D printed weapons to add variety. Much as it may gall me to admit it, the beakies in the box are pretty damned sweet.
I find with OPR, when I loose, it's because I made a mistake. When I loose a game of 40k, I did make a mistake but I probably won't learn from it because I'm not buying yet another army's codex and a few copies of white dwarf and printing some crap from a website tripping over itself to sell me product.
James Workshop made a game I wanted to play when I first got into the hobby. It was so cool that everything had individual stats, the micromanager geek in me loved that aspect. Jaded wargamer me who's been playing for a decade would much rather smoke a bowl, throw some dice, and just have fun with easy to remember rules with my friends.
The answer to your opening question is 'yes'. My absolute favorite game is Mordheim - cludgy overly complicated rules, poor balance... but a great setting and the best narrative play, that has me still playing the game twenty five years later. We play a LOT of OPR - best beer and pretzels games on the market. But Mordheim just keeps calling me back. Heck, it was Mordheim that sucked me into 3D printing.
the thing i struggle with is the numbers. I'm kinda new to the hobby but had a decent amount of bigger games (1500p+) and the numbers and dice rolls just confuse me to no end. like i kinda get that if number is bigger then i need to roll this number whilst if its lower then i need to roll this other number but wait if its double its something else but also if you get a six then it has its own rules. btw if you roll a 1 you can reroll it but only sometimes in certain times. i get the game needs to be engaging and have mechanics but this bombardment of numbers and maths ombined with trying to remember to do orders or abilities and remembering when and where i can do stuff just sorta is pushing me away, which is a shame because i love the lore of warhammer and the models look amazing.
I like both. I like granular rules, with templates, WYSIWYG, and differences in wargear making nuiances to specialize units. I also like simple rules, to get to throw dice and play a game in an hour. Both have their uses and satisfaction. Edit: I would love for leadership to affect unit turn order, especially in alternating activation games. Fantasy Flight was great with turn order (low skill units moved first, high skill units shot first). It would also make leadership affecting skills and abilities mean more in games.
40K in its current form, is designed to be a competitive game, played in tournaments. While it’s not always executed properly, every possible scenario or rules interaction needs to be addressed in writing so that a TO can make a fair ruling on any issues that may come up between 2 players. To my knowledge, OPR was, has, and always will be intended for casual play. The first 3 paragraphs in OPR rules outline how to settle any confusion or situations with the rules that may come up.
I am sorry, but 40K is about selling you stuff, not about having a tight and clear system of rules, to foster a good tournament environment. OPR has a very tight and clear system, that would be a godsend to any tournament organizer. If you have been active in the OPR discord for any amount of time, you'll see that most rules questions are either resolved rather quickly to the satisfaction of everyone, by using rules as written, or are quickly addressed by the OPR rule-writing staff and corrected in the next version. There is little to no ambiguity in any Rules-interactions in OPR. And the rule you are referring to is mostly used, when a measurement is too close to call either way and some sort of resolution is needed. Btw this is exactly the same as in 40k, Infinity, Malifax or whatever tournament: when the judge decides, something is to close to call, you do a roll-off.
@@Gavrahil if 40K was only about selling me models, they would keep what I wanted in stock and lower the prices, instead of forcing me to buy 3d printed proxies lol. I’m not on the OPR discord and it has not been my experience that the 15 page beginner rules, that my group uses, is completely unambiguous.
I think Warhammer rules are to messy and bloated too. The most accessible version of 40k so far was 8th edition when it was still indexes. They should have used universal special rules instead of the individual unit rules that do the same thing, but have different names. Later in 8th's design cycle, it became bloated with army special rules and strategems. Though they cut back on some of that in later editions, they then added bloat back into the core rules itself. 8th edition was like 8 pages of core rules. 9th and 10th bloated back up to 30+ pages.
40k is aimed completely at competitive players these days. Narrative modes exists, but since most people in stores will be playing with matched play rules, get used to having to trust your opponent or memorize their codex. Haven't tried OPR yet, but i mught just find a 4th edition rulebook and see if anyone wants to play that lmao
Also: 40k is completely useless for competitve play with is bloated and often contradictory ruleset, that you need a degree in to be halfway capable of conflict resolution. Complicated does not equal Good. What you're thinking of is complex but still easy. And 40k is about as far from that, that it can see the curvature of the universe.
the older I get the more simple I want my wargames. I find that the theme/lore of the game is sometimes more important than the rules, since its the mind fantasy we are all after.
40k movement : as a crusty old gamer i hate the random movement too but i understand why they changed it . Random movement as well as premeasuring makes the game more novice friendly. veteran gamers can visually estimate distances better then new players can . they dont want new players getting tabled because they cant estimate their charges as easily. the problem isnt the random element its thats it is too random and swingy. a smaller random variation in the charges would be as annoying.
You asked for suggestions. Kids and I have a lot of warhammer and have also done much scratch bashing. Can you give some examples of how you would go about using random other minis for OPR games?
"Random" Movement in Warhammer isn't as random as it appears. The bell curve on 2D6 actually gives some variation that you can plan around. Since Movement itself is based on a fixed value, you use that reliable movement to get into position and then the 2D6 charge gives you a predictable range that if you moved tactically you will likely be successful. If you attempt charges from far away, you won't make those charges as often. Likewise, the occasional low roll means that your units from time to time will fail charges and be caught out in the open. The result in Warhammer I find is actually more realistic and varied than just fixed charged values.
The problem isn't that WH is complicated its that its complicated in the wrong places and in hidden ways. Eg vehicle facing was a fun complacation, necron reanimation being 3 paragrapes long or lossing to strategems you cant realistically know if you own your opponents army book isn't
That’s my intentional audience. Wathammer players who are looking for an alternative. Clickbait isn’t great, but I do need to find and audience! Thanks for watching! And if you have suggestions I’ll gladly hear them!
Not at all. Its wharhammer if you wete trying to out think your opponent rather than out-think the rules. Chess is simple but defeating a chess player is absolutely not for dumbys.
@StormWildSpace That shows you haven't understood it. OPR is the epitome of "easy to learn, difficult to master". After only a few games, you stop learning the rules, and start learning the game: Infinitely complex and interesting situations and decisions open up on the table and you're winning or losing by your whits and not by your opponent forgetting one of their rules, or you pulling a "got ya", that he can't counter, cause his codex was nerfed during the last FAQ. As was already said: the rules of chess are explained in less than five minutes, but if you think chess is easy, the biggest dummy you'll ever see is staring at you from your bathroom mirror every day.
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I'd argue that Warhammer is bloated, not complicated. Rules scattered across myriad sources isn't necessarily complicated. Poorly written isn't the same as complicated either. Poorly describing something simple makes it more difficult to comprehend, not complicated.
@@helotaxi what an excellent point.
Thats a great take!
That’s a fair point…Infinity is complicated, but I don’t know that it’s bloated.
I've had this same issue with Two Hour Wargames, Ed Teixeira's writing style is nigh impenetrable, almost as bad as Phil Barker (famous for his DBA, DBM and DBMM rulesets), but once you finally make your way through the mess of their printed words, their rules are actually quite interesting and they flow really well, something you'd never guess from a first read of the book.
OPR's rules, OTOH, are so easy to read and they're so well laid out, you can get a grasp of the flow of the game quite easily, which is a major advantage IMHO.
Agreed!
OBR reminds me of old warhammer. I remember the days when you had to be within 6" to charge and could only fire Assault or Pistol weapons before you did. So if you wanted to charge with your Marines, you were not going to shoot with them. Pistols were not standard. You moved 6" and then if you were within 6" you could charge.
They did have initiative back then though, so charging your Marines into Genestealers was a far worse idea than it is now, where you can basically do that with impunity because for some reason Genestealers are not fights first and that still upsets me.
🤷🏻♂️ agreed
Alternate opinion: Some people enjoy the granular complex deep "Crunch" style of games such as Battletech. Others enjoy simple and easy rules. GW is currently trying to please both crowds and failing. 40k 10th isnt deep enough for the crunch folks yet too granular and complex for the simplicity folks. Why play 40k when games like OPR and battletech exist?
It’s a good take! I agree!
Warhammer 40k is easy:
player A has their turn.
then
if player B has anything left on the table, then they get to use their sole surviving troop.
IGYG format is garbage!
buy the models? absolutely, they are fantastic. then, use ANY OTHER rules to battle the models!
since 2nd version of GWs 40k, I won't touch any game that has IGYG format.
Same!
The same player that brought us all into OPR is also the one that bought the Age of Darkness box - then hired me to paint it for him.
He sold off everything but the miniatures - and uses them for OPR. (Or would, if he hadn't been distracted by the Saurian Starhost....)
He also used a bunch of 3D printed weapons to add variety.
Much as it may gall me to admit it, the beakies in the box are pretty damned sweet.
😎😎😎
I find with OPR, when I loose, it's because I made a mistake. When I loose a game of 40k, I did make a mistake but I probably won't learn from it because I'm not buying yet another army's codex and a few copies of white dwarf and printing some crap from a website tripping over itself to sell me product.
😂😂🥳 a fair point
James Workshop made a game I wanted to play when I first got into the hobby. It was so cool that everything had individual stats, the micromanager geek in me loved that aspect. Jaded wargamer me who's been playing for a decade would much rather smoke a bowl, throw some dice, and just have fun with easy to remember rules with my friends.
Agreed
The answer to your opening question is 'yes'.
My absolute favorite game is Mordheim - cludgy overly complicated rules, poor balance... but a great setting and the best narrative play, that has me still playing the game twenty five years later.
We play a LOT of OPR - best beer and pretzels games on the market.
But Mordheim just keeps calling me back.
Heck, it was Mordheim that sucked me into 3D printing.
But the past few editions of 40K has not drawn me in at all, at all. And Age of Stockholders drove me entirely away from GW's fantasy lines.
I remember reading the rule book back in the day!
🥲🥲🥲
the thing i struggle with is the numbers. I'm kinda new to the hobby but had a decent amount of bigger games (1500p+) and the numbers and dice rolls just confuse me to no end. like i kinda get that if number is bigger then i need to roll this number whilst if its lower then i need to roll this other number but wait if its double its something else but also if you get a six then it has its own rules. btw if you roll a 1 you can reroll it but only sometimes in certain times. i get the game needs to be engaging and have mechanics but this bombardment of numbers and maths ombined with trying to remember to do orders or abilities and remembering when and where i can do stuff just sorta is pushing me away, which is a shame because i love the lore of warhammer and the models look amazing.
The lore keeps a lot of people in it!
I like both. I like granular rules, with templates, WYSIWYG, and differences in wargear making nuiances to specialize units. I also like simple rules, to get to throw dice and play a game in an hour. Both have their uses and satisfaction.
Edit: I would love for leadership to affect unit turn order, especially in alternating activation games. Fantasy Flight was great with turn order (low skill units moved first, high skill units shot first). It would also make leadership affecting skills and abilities mean more in games.
Fair enough!
40K in its current form, is designed to be a competitive game, played in tournaments. While it’s not always executed properly, every possible scenario or rules interaction needs to be addressed in writing so that a TO can make a fair ruling on any issues that may come up between 2 players.
To my knowledge, OPR was, has, and always will be intended for casual play. The first 3 paragraphs in OPR rules outline how to settle any confusion or situations with the rules that may come up.
Which I think helps a ton! Roll a dice instead of call a judge. May not go your way, but that'd be great, right?
I am sorry, but 40K is about selling you stuff, not about having a tight and clear system of rules, to foster a good tournament environment.
OPR has a very tight and clear system, that would be a godsend to any tournament organizer.
If you have been active in the OPR discord for any amount of time, you'll see that most rules questions are either resolved rather quickly to the satisfaction of everyone, by using rules as written, or are quickly addressed by the OPR rule-writing staff and corrected in the next version.
There is little to no ambiguity in any Rules-interactions in OPR.
And the rule you are referring to is mostly used, when a measurement is too close to call either way and some sort of resolution is needed. Btw this is exactly the same as in 40k, Infinity, Malifax or whatever tournament: when the judge decides, something is to close to call, you do a roll-off.
@@Gavrahil if 40K was only about selling me models, they would keep what I wanted in stock and lower the prices, instead of forcing me to buy 3d printed proxies lol.
I’m not on the OPR discord and it has not been my experience that the 15 page beginner rules, that my group uses, is completely unambiguous.
I think Warhammer rules are to messy and bloated too. The most accessible version of 40k so far was 8th edition when it was still indexes. They should have used universal special rules instead of the individual unit rules that do the same thing, but have different names. Later in 8th's design cycle, it became bloated with army special rules and strategems. Though they cut back on some of that in later editions, they then added bloat back into the core rules itself. 8th edition was like 8 pages of core rules. 9th and 10th bloated back up to 30+ pages.
Right!?
40k is aimed completely at competitive players these days.
Narrative modes exists, but since most people in stores will be playing with matched play rules, get used to having to trust your opponent or memorize their codex.
Haven't tried OPR yet, but i mught just find a 4th edition rulebook and see if anyone wants to play that lmao
I’d really suggest OPR!
Also: 40k is completely useless for competitve play with is bloated and often contradictory ruleset, that you need a degree in to be halfway capable of conflict resolution.
Complicated does not equal Good.
What you're thinking of is complex but still easy. And 40k is about as far from that, that it can see the curvature of the universe.
😎
the older I get the more simple I want my wargames. I find that the theme/lore of the game is sometimes more important than the rules, since its the mind fantasy we are all after.
Agreed!
40k movement : as a crusty old gamer i hate the random movement too but i understand why they changed it . Random movement as well as premeasuring makes the game more novice friendly. veteran gamers can visually estimate distances better then new players can . they dont want new players getting tabled because they cant estimate their charges as easily. the problem isnt the random element its thats it is too random and swingy. a smaller random variation in the charges would be as annoying.
What would you suggest then? Genuinely curious
You asked for suggestions. Kids and I have a lot of warhammer and have also done much scratch bashing. Can you give some examples of how you would go about using random other minis for OPR games?
First thought is those old army men. The green ones. And then the random plastic toys that could be made into close enough units!
"Random" Movement in Warhammer isn't as random as it appears. The bell curve on 2D6 actually gives some variation that you can plan around. Since Movement itself is based on a fixed value, you use that reliable movement to get into position and then the 2D6 charge gives you a predictable range that if you moved tactically you will likely be successful. If you attempt charges from far away, you won't make those charges as often. Likewise, the occasional low roll means that your units from time to time will fail charges and be caught out in the open. The result in Warhammer I find is actually more realistic and varied than just fixed charged values.
I hear you. That sounds like a good take if you enjoy it!
The problem isn't that WH is complicated its that its complicated in the wrong places and in hidden ways.
Eg vehicle facing was a fun complacation, necron reanimation being 3 paragrapes long or lossing to strategems you cant realistically know if you own your opponents army book isn't
Heard
Lately, I think GW has been focus too much simplifying the game which is hurt it.
I disagree but that’s fair
simple means less features but more features mean more complicated
It’s a give and take! I like playing with the amount of features we’re given with OPR!
I love how you claimed to quit warhammer 3 months ago but keep making videos on it 😂😂😂
Donkey 🤡
You’re right. I shouldn’t ever speak of warhammer again 😅
@@AcceptablyEPIC oh you can, just don’t say you quit warhammer then use it as engagement bait for yt
That’s my intentional audience. Wathammer players who are looking for an alternative. Clickbait isn’t great, but I do need to find and audience! Thanks for watching! And if you have suggestions I’ll gladly hear them!
OPR is warhammer for dummies. It's WAY too simple
Meh. I’m having fun 🥳
Warhammer is wargaming for fools seeking to be separated from their money.
How much have you spent on Wallethammer?
Not at all. Its wharhammer if you wete trying to out think your opponent rather than out-think the rules.
Chess is simple but defeating a chess player is absolutely not for dumbys.
@StormWildSpace That shows you haven't understood it. OPR is the epitome of "easy to learn, difficult to master". After only a few games, you stop learning the rules, and start learning the game:
Infinitely complex and interesting situations and decisions open up on the table and you're winning or losing by your whits and not by your opponent forgetting one of their rules, or you pulling a "got ya", that he can't counter, cause his codex was nerfed during the last FAQ.
As was already said: the rules of chess are explained in less than five minutes, but if you think chess is easy, the biggest dummy you'll ever see is staring at you from your bathroom mirror every day.
If OPR means not playing with someone who believes that. I'm all in !
😂