Tip me if you want: ko-fi.com/tbskyen | / tbskyen Follow me if you want: tbskyen.bsky.so... | tumblr.com/ohno... #frieren #frierenbeyondjourneysend #frierenreaction
This Episode gave me a laugh flash. Because "Lügner" is german for "liar" and paired with the situation that the "Demon Peace-envoy" had such a name was just hillarious to me. Also the one with the Wire Powers has the Name "Draht"....which is german for Wire. The Naming in this show is really funny for someone who speaks german.
There is a running theory that the names are retrospective in nature. That the narrator or one reliving these memories didn't remember anyone's name so they are using themes of the character as the name instead.
SO, the way I initially read the flashback and the general nature of demons, specifically from the behavior of that little girl demon. For context, I am exactly this far into the show and no further. From her point of view, she killed the chief to give the woman his daughter as a replacement for eating her daughter, because she could tell the woman hated her. In her way, she was trying to right a wrong, hoping the woman would leave her in peace afterwards and was confused when she did not receive the desired reaction. The way I read it as that demons are not inherently immoral beings, strictly speaking, but inherently amoral. They do not do evil things for the sake of doing evil things, at least not inherently within their nature. They do evil things because they don't have a concept for those things being "evil" and just do what feels right for them. Outwardly, there is not much difference, but I feel the distinction between a creature that does evil for the sake of doing evil and causing unhappiness and a creature that just does what feels right and what feels right happens to be killing humans is important. What the chief did was basically equivalent to adopting a tiger and acting shocked when the tiger decided to eat him. Demons do evil things simply because they either don't understand or don't care about the human concept of morality. At least that's my initial reading of it after this episode.
I've read that the technical definition of "sin" in theology is to do that, which you know to be wrong. It stands to reason that a being without a functioning understanding of right and wrong can't be evil, only dangerous.
There's a part much later in the manga where a demon just keeps slaughtering people trying to understand their emotions They really just don't ever get it
@@ryzardthewyzard6338 I figured opening with "later in the manga" was enough to alert one that I'm about to say something that could be considered a spoiler
@@Rannos22 I figured not mentioning spoilers in the comments section of a video where someone (and some viewers) wouldn’t want to see spoilers would be common sense, but here we are. Don’t mean to be rude, but it does boggle the mind.
Frieren's production budget allocation is genuinely a masterclass that could be considered the gold standard of the industry. It doesn't totally lack cool sakuga moments, but so much more of the attention goes to subtle character acting and immersive moments that help realize the world and characters. There are a few episodes I'm VERY excited to see you get to eventually, though I wont mention them because spoilers. I'm glad you're back on Frieren, I could do these watchalongs every day until the end of the season easily haha.
Frieren's take on demons is pretty interesting. I wouldn't say that they're inherently _evil_ - because they're not human enough to even have a _concept_ of good and evil. They are, quite simply, predators, who have evolved to prey on humans specifically. Just like a lion isn't evil for killing and eating an antelope, a demon isn't evil for doing the same thing to a human. They are simply living out the function they have evolved for, using the tools they evolved for that purpose. Sharp intellect and the ability to emulate human speech to lull their prey into a false sense of security. They _are_ highly intelligent, so some of them try to relate to the human experience and comprehend why we act the way we do - but they simply exist completely outside of the human spectrum of morality, and can't feel or understand these things the same way we do. They simply didn't evolve to have social tendencies like that. They can observe or even study humans, but the disconnect happens on a fundamental level. So yeah, demons in Frieren are neither good or evil. They simply act according to their own nature, which is that of a predator hunting humans. It's not a question of morality.
I'd say they're much like olden fairies where in that having no capacity for sincere malice, ironically makes them beings of malice in itself. When one is instinctually evil, having good actions aren't an oxymoron, just merely their mood/plan. Hence why a lot of people relate them to the sociopath mentality of a serial killer than animals. We humanize animals too much and don't consider the lion has no capacity of higher society, communication or diplomacy. As do all our animal food sources. Demons all do, but in their very nature, they can't refuse the call of slaughter and trivialization of humans.
My impression is there was a wave of stories where it was fun to subvert storybook monsters by exploring them as people, now there's a new wave subverting that by reexploring monsters as dread eldritch horror, implacable and alien. Fey, vampires, werewolves, etc.
I don't really agree with this. While that explanation would work for an animal, demons aren't really. The level of intelligence they demonstrate is that of a sapient being capable of reasoning, not an animal simply following it's instincts. Demons are very clearly capable of understanding "why" humans are the way they are, but they are incapable of empathizing with it or "feeling" the things humans do due to their extreme asocial nature. However they still demonstrate basic survival instinct and clearly do value their own lives, which on it's own would allow a "you don't kill me i don't kill you" sort of coexistence, if it wasn't for the other aspect of their nature - their extreme sense of superiority over humanity. That sense of superiority is why they don't try to understand humans despite being capable of doing it, it's why they see no reason to coexist with humanity. In their own moral framework of course they're not evil, because their moral framework is extremely simplistic, likely something as simple as "might makes right". From humanity's point of view though there is no question that they are evil beings, because despite having the capacity to try and understand, they don't. Of course it's harder to have an in depth discussion because there are still a lot of questions about demons that are unanswered. Is their sense of superiority a learned behavior? Is it part of their nature? Can you socialize them from birth and get a different result? How do they even reproduce? Surely they're not 40k orks reproducing through spores??? But fundamentally i'm not really willing to give frieren's demons the benefit of the doubt and call them simply animals following their instincts.
@@HeavenlyBrush I never said that they're animals following their instincts. Just that they evolved on a completely different path to humans, and thus have a fundamental lack of understanding of human emotions. You sound like you're probably anime only, so I'm not gonna go into detail, but the manga has actually explored attempts at demon & human cohabitation pretty thoroughly; it's possible for them to exist side-by-side with each other, but that lack of understanding means that sooner or later, things will go wrong. Just like they did with that little demon girl in this episode - she did try to live peacefully with the villagers, but she couldn't understand the value of a human life, and the way she tried to make up for her initial mistake ended up being incredibly cruel because she didn't understand emotions or human connection. Even if demons try to live by human rules, that fundamental disconnect is going to get in the way.
This topic of how two species developing intellect independently could be really interesting to explore. Also since this is Frierens subjective perspective, it might not be as black and white as she thinks. The closest thing in real life might be how octopusses developed complex brains independent from humans with our last common ancestor being like 300 million years back. If octopusses developed until we could communicate, would there be fundamental difference like these?
As someone who is autistic and NPD (a deeply misunderstood disorder), I appreciate you talking about this. I also appreciate how the show handles it. Demons... aren't the only low-empathy characters we see. Frieren herself doesn't seem to operate on *empathy*, persay. She can't relate to most experiences of others, or even their emotions, but she cares anyway (admittedly I read her as more autistic than anything, its a good choice to depict someone with a radically different lifespan from humans, though her history would also make her actually qualify for a ASPD diagnosis. The factor that separates actual low empathy people from the pop cultural caricature of them) The thing about CEOs and doctors and wallstreet people being sociopaths is... ehhhh, kinda bullshit? Sociopath isn't a real diagnostic thing, its a loosey goosey thing unlike ASPD (though ASPD is also weaponized against underprivileged people especially POC, and it is they who are most likely to have it). What your CEO is is...a normal person, put in a situation where all their incentives *require* dehumanization, and they're so privileged they can no longer relate to normal struggles. Essentially, its the dark side of empathy- it seems easy, at least to me, for people with empathy to only consider human those who have experiences they can and choose to relate to. Lacking it... its a lot easier to see everyone as deserving of the same things, a lot easier to not be biased towards those considered socially acceptable/good. Most atrocities are by normal people who have decided and conditioned themselves to only see as humans those who share their experiences. That is, at least part of what empathy seems to be.
Though what "empathy" means seems to be a dozen of barely related concepts strung together by language and a desire to separate "normal" people from the deeply traumatized or developmentally different. Its not some eternal, fixed concept, its a thing our society has built and remains out of reach for some of us.
Wouldn't normally make a post like this but you've cultivated a community that seems... safe enough? Hopefully others can speak of this respectfully and with curiosity instead of malice.
@@danello9091 Antisocial Personality Disorder, which is characterized by limited/nonexistant empathy, impulsivity (including suseptability to substance abuse and related issues), and a general feeling of emotional detatchment. Part of the diagnostic criteria is a history of trauma in early childhood. Its a deeply misunderstood disorder, as are all personality disorders, especially cluster B (which consists of Borderline Personality Disorder, Histrionic Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and the aforementioned Antisocial Personality Disorder). All the cluster B disorders are characterized by emotional volatility of some form, impulsiveness, and erratic/difficult to understand behaviors
@@InnsannaStories Thank you for your reply, I think I knew someone who experienced this, they were diagnosed with sociopathy, but at the same time, it didn't make sense to them or to me, because they were a really nice and lovely person, one I got in a relationship with, in which they felt as if they could rediscover feelings they thought they weren't supposed to have, relating to people and stuff, still I'm very uneducated in the topic and I could be wrong in thinking that, I just wish I had known about this at the time, well I wish I had known more in general. Anyways, thank you again.
I haven't read the manga, but i can 100% say in the anime they don't fumble the demon "monster" aspect. They are an "anglerfish" but with speech instead of a light. They are an "RPG Monster" like any other but they have speech as their tool to fight against humans.
I actually find that I have a surprisingly amount of things to say about Demons in Frieren. I like to compare them to Mimics. What is a Mimic? Is it a chest? Well, no. It just looks like a chest and sits in place with its mouth closed. I doubt a Mimic even understands what a chest is. They're pretty similar in that regard, though now that I think about it John Carpenter's "The Thing" would be a far more accurate comparison. Narratively, I also personally see the story as comparing the Demons to Frieren herself. She doesn't have a great understanding of other people or their feelings and wears a similar blank expression to them. However, she's not treated like a monster because she doesn't take advantage of other people's feelings. I'm happy that the show plays around with the concept and am curious to see what your thoughts will be.
The biggest thing with the demons is that not only do they not understand humans (and other humanoid races) but they have zero interest in learning how to understand them beyond what they can use to manipulate them better.
Huh, i kinda see your point there, back when this ep aired there were a ton of really heated discussion about frieren's depiction of demons, but ig it's all comes down to how much we can separate reality and fiction. I love this show's depiction of demons, to me they're more like aliens with wildly different moral and understanding than human while also look like them.
There are different animators per episode I think (certainly different directors and storyboard editors). Therefore, to answer the question of why they would hand-animate rocks, imho, it is to show off. to their colleagues. It works.
This was honestly one of the most painful episodes to get through as a native German speaker. It's building this whole reveal of how you can't negotiate with demons and whatnot after introducing the main negotiating party named LIAR.
they aren't though, not inherently, the little demon girl didn't feel malicious the same way the demons at town right now, it felt like their concept of right and wrong is completely alien compared to ours
I will leave more thoughts in later episodes because I think some more things need to be showcased about demons but I do like how they are shown in a very complex ways. Many people immediately said its good to have true evil demons again but I feel like its a bit more complicated which I do enjoy. It really sticks with me how the demon girl specifically made the choice to kill the village chief but not his child to replace the child she took. I really hope further in the series we see a clearer reason why they specifically kill humans if not for food but at least in some parts demons and humans can't coexist here is just because they see the value of life and social relations in drastically different ways and I find that a fascinating moral question that is posed.
Having read the manga up to volume 11, I really wonder where the story about the nature of demons is going to go. It seems to me that towards the end of Frieren, this will become one of the central questions and I don't yet know where it's gonna lead. I won't spoil anything but this is not the last time Frieren will examine this subject and so far, this examination hasn't concluded yet.
You actually can communicate with Dragon Quest monsters. When they attack you in battle, they are the aggressor and its less of an issue. But they do tend to have their own villages, can speak and will emphasize that they are, "Not a bad slime *slurp" whenever they aren't evil.
soo i only started watching Frieren because of your reactions, but it hooked me so hard that i couldnt stop myself from binging it in two days. really interested to see your reactions, i just really love the vibe this anime gives and its definitely in my top 3 of like the past 2 years of anime
You have no idea how hyped I was when I first watched Frieren calmly warn the assassin he is about to make a grave mistake. Up until then I never expected this anime to go for this kind of conflict, the slow-paced slice of life is already great. In the first episode, there definitely are 3D horses, they may have been reused for some of those animations. I like how you immediately considered Frieren might be ace. We don't have that much representation on that side (Apothecary Diaries has great aro-ace vibes though), so it's refreshing. I just love how the demon peace envoy's name is basically "Mr Big Fat Liar".
And. The demons themselves dehumanize humans as well. Why else did the demon girl try to give the gurl to the grieving parents? She saw the lives of the little girl she killed and the man who took her as nothing. She saw the life of the little girl she killed as replaceable. "Yeah, I broke your doll so I stole one to replace it!" And even the demon girl was spared and lived with the family, did she feel some affection for them to make her hesitate? She was so logical in replacing the girl she killed but not logical enough to figure out it would cause more distress.
Tackling demons in Frieren without spoiling stuff is very difficult, but I will give it a try. Especially since this was the part of Manga that immediately sent me into thinking on how Demons and "Humanity" (which for simplicity includes Elves and Dwarfs) could co-exist. And whether it is even possible. It is recreation of my own thought experiment that I did years ago after reading few chapters of this arc. To be specific I asked myself: "What would have to happen for Demons and "Humanity" to co-exist, given that they fought each other and seem to be very different from each other". This did require some leaps in logic, but was very fun and very intellectually stimulating. But let me preempt this by congratulating you on possibly the best "talk" on the topic of this trope in fiction that I've heard. And there are some good videos out there on this specific topic. Yes - just as Granny Weatherwax from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series said (I don't remember exactly how quote began, but I'm certain about meaning): "Problems start when you start to think about people as things/objects". And to remind people - there was study of brains of War Criminals that were convicted in Nurnberg Trials. Psychologists and Psychiatrists didn't want to analyze them - because they were afraid of what possible results could say. Until the person who was in charge of that project anonymized them and sent "exhibits" to many professionals in the world for them to give their opinion. Vast majority of them said that they were not psycho or sociopaths. Until then the belief was that Holocaust and whole Nazism was basically a freak event, because power in the country was taken by people who were predisposed towards crimes against Humanity from the birth. People believed that it couldn't occur anywhere else, unless so many offices in the country would be taken by "psychopaths", which was thought to be statistical improbability. Now we know that "regular", "normal" people are completely capable of such and similar Crimes Against Humanity, Genocide and War Crimes. When it comes to fiction - yes this trope is fine. I don't think anyone will watch Frieren and think: "Well, marginalized people are like those Demons". If they do, then they already had such beliefs and impact of Frieren in their belief will be negligible to zero. It will be just like saying that someone committed violence because they played GTA or Mortal Kombat. Usually the fact that said person did some heinous crimes has multiple factors. Much, much more important ones. Though I do want to warn against saying that such tropes or such games are "harmless". In vacuum? Sure, they should be. If someone only plays various violent games for decades and doesn't consume other type of media that wouldn't be similar - that might result in difficulties in differentiating fiction from reality. Which might result in some violent actions. Though couple of important caveats: 1. It's still unlikely that this is the only or even majority reason for said violence. 2. At some point I included violent games in the mix for comparison - those (especially with some story) often do include direct de-humanization of Humans. Frieren doesn't. 3. We're talking long term exposure to multiple works of fiction that all have the same trope. None of those works alone (probably not even those that do directly dehumanize people - Frieren doesn't do it directly) is likely to be enough on it's own. 4. It certainly doesn't mean that such works of fiction should be banned. Definitely not Frieren. Works that directly dehumanize people are "problematic", but their danger depends on media literacy. They shouldn't be banned, but we should for example not allow our Children to play/watch them. I'm speaking of the type of fiction that, unlike Frieren, is for example actually racist or transphobic AND condones such behavior. Personally I would not want to read/watch/play something that is so hateful and is proud of itself for being hateful. 5. We have to focus primarily on education so that people are capable of understanding the difference between reality and fiction. That dehumanization of certain creatures in fiction doesn't mean that it is okay to move said dehumanization to real people. And that treating other people as "sub-human" or even worse is ALWAYS horrible and should always be opposed. I will only say that I do love Frieren as both Manga and Anime (which IMO elevates the source material even higher). I can't exactly talk about Demons in detail without spoiling stuff, but what I can say without spoiling (mostly using this episode and logic as reference, maybe some small inconsequential details from this arc, but no further and I tried avoiding even that) is: 1. One of the obstacles in achieving co-existence is that both Frieren and Demons can live very long (Qual said "only 80 years"). They both have their own views and their prejudices. It's gonna be hard to change them. 2. Behavior of younger, less powerful demons looks more promising. It's not different enough for co-existence, but it shows that there might be a chance. Not a big one, but a chance. 3. To mirror both of above points, now that it has been almost 80 years since Demon King has been defeated - Humans specifically will be moving away from just blind hatred. Though within the fiction this comes with a drawback that might lessen their chances of defending themselves against the demons who do want to harm them. Which is still vast majority of Demons, because - and this is fine in fiction - conflict between them is mostly existential. One species cannot live if other lives or at least as long as either of them attacks the other or is seen as threat. So with that out of the way, I feel like the best chance will come from younger, weaker Demons, if they manage to learn that killing and/or eating humans is directly lowering their chances of survival. Sadly said group will be seen as they are enemies, by not only "Humanity", but also by any stronger Demon that doesn't share the same simple view. Therefore they would have to live somewhere where chances of meeting said Demons is small. And where humans and possibly also Dwarfs and Elves (if there are any in that region), now don't have that instinctual "hatred" for demons. Trying to analyze it in more detail would require spoilers. I could go more in-depth, but that is as much as I can infer based only on this arc and honestly mostly logic and what was shown in this episode and before it (flashback scene and behavior and talk of Demons that serve Aura the Guillotine - someone who we know has to have "older" views, because they served Demon King in very high role. I assumed that "demon child" was both young and not part of Demon King's forces. I assumed that Elves and Dwarfs live sufficiently long that their stance towards the demons would not be substantially different than it was 80 years ago.). I do wish them luck - they will need it. While co-existence seems possible, it doesn't look very probable. A lot of things would have to pan out in certain way. This was my mental exercise. I won't "hate" Frieren if it doesn't do that. It's fiction after all and one that is superbly beautiful and with tons of worth and beautiful other topics.
dont let real world problems make you dislike the way demons are depicted in Frieren, sir Skyen. To me it's just a refreshing way to portrait villains since nowadays most stories present "relatable" villains, so seeing a "evil because evil" enemies is a breath of fresh air.
I'm at the minute 45 of your video, and I have something to add about the demon discourse in Frieren. Notice that the behaviour of the demon girl doesn't match the interpretation of Frieren of the events. The girl is confused and actually just trying to survive by the means she have. She didn't kill the village elder for malice - she did it because she truly believed that it was something that would warrant her own survival. There is a deeper narrative on the demons that go beyond Frieren's and Flamme's PTSD.
I definitely agree that Flamme and Frieren - while they are authority on Demons in their respective times, they are definitely biased. It's both understandable and a bit horrifying - considering what it might have led to or might lead to in the future (for Frieren specifically). I do love this show and the Manga and I don't have a problem with this trope. But some people out there also pretend that Frieren herself is 100% correct and cannot be wrong. Which is not true.
oh wow you added the little semi-translucent box at the top that shows a small portion of the bottom of the screen, nice! I was going to suggest doing that when I started watching your Frieren videos the other day, since it makes it a lot easier to make sure we're sync'd up. I guess other people have also suggested it lol
Something sort of interesting the flashback in this episode does that I'm not really sure the /narrative itself/ realizes it's done, is that it kind of proves the opposite of its point. Full understanding between the two species might not be entirely possible just because human thought and emotion is just as defined by our evolution as theirs is- we're a social species that can work alone in a pinch, they're a solitary species that can work together in a pinch- but peace is, /coexistence/ is. The demon child wasn't baiting the chief and his daughter for anything, they weren't tricking them, they were just fulfilling their end of the transaction the Chief offered them, because that's a social framework they understood; they work the farm and in exchange they get to live in peace. But then, the woman whose child they ate was always there, always watching, they could feel her eyes in their back; with the way the demon child behaved, if /she/ hadn't been antagonistic, neither would they. But she was, and so the child tried to find a way to fix the problem, right the wrong they had done. Their solution doesn't work from an emotional standpoint, but it does from a transactional one. They took something from her, so they provided something of equal value to balance the scales. There was no malice, nothing even predatory about it, just transactional practicality in service of peacemaking, and when it didn't work they were confused and scared. By everything they understood, they did the correct thing. Demons are very sensitive to mana, which makes them sensitive to the intent of people around them, if you can approach them with truly peaceful intent, they can feel that, if you provide them with a situation where being antagonistic won't solve anything they won't be. So the way to make peace with them really is just to be kind without ulterior motive on an individual level, provide a path to peace they can understand. Treat them like monsters and they will behave like monsters, treat them with dignity and respect and they will reciprocate, which is honestly the truth of all social interaction, if you treat people poorly they will behave poorly.
Here’s the thing people have always tended to have nasty tribal like tendencies. I don’t think a writer has personally responsibility to be heavy handed as you seem to want it to be. To incorporate a concept cause certain bad people can misinterpret it. Since no matter what you do they’re will be group of people that will transform your work. Like look at how republicans love world warhamer and look up to emperor that writers obviously made to speak out against them. Hell one of my favorite movie whiplash certain people look up to the disgusting teacher who abused his student. They think the movie was trying to say the girlfriend beneath him etc. As long the intent isn’t to target then it’s not their responsibility. Feel like frieren has a rather fresh take cause unlike something like hazbin hotel the demons don’t feel like slightly reskinned human. They feel like a different entity
21:42 Yeah. The fact that this shows "Low-End" is "perfectly servicable" is a a valid reason to be slightly, definitely, ambigiously mad at this crew :D They got settled with the doom of compromise and decided: "how about we just.... don't?" it is a joy to see you fly off the handle about these little things ^^
Man, I hate to say it but the lack of 3d animation is exactly part of why it feels so good to watch. 3d animation just never looks like 2d. it comes close, but it will never really do it. even tracing and stuff like that is better usually. 3d is usually stylistically corrupt and clashes with the show 7 times out of 10.
There is no point imho of abandoning the concept of irredemable monsters because of people who cannot separate reality from fiction. If we can't have a society that can deal with slight subtleties then we are lost regardless.
The thing that struck me in the flashback was that, well I'd seen the 'monster pretends to be human but is still a monster that wants to kill you' in Claymore. So I was expecting the girl to kill the other little girl as an easier target because she really wants that flesh or some such. But no, that's not the case, her motivation was still self preservation, she saw the grieving mother as a threat and did the only thing she could think of to negate that. So the nature of monsters is not sadistic, it's a detached self preservation from a solitary species that makes it hard to comprehend from a social human standpoint. It's more purple and orange morality and if people understood that they cannot anthropomorphize them co-existence could still be possible if difficult.
Demons have a distinct psychology that is very different from humans in the same way lions have a distinct psychology. They are another intelligent species, but how they think is different. It is the same for elves, actually, but elves have a much more compatible psyche profile. Their big thing is they don’t understand romantic feelings or sexual attraction. Which causes friction with humans, it just isn't near as bad as what demons experience. If you doubt this, watch a lot of reaction videos where people chastise Frieren for not picking up on Himmel's signals. They don’t understand that her mind does not work that way.
Well, I think their big thing is more general apathy towards other people rather than specifically romantic feelings or sexual attraction. Like, even Frieren dehumanized Himmel and Heiter by emphasizing how little of her lifespan they would exist for despite how strong of a bond they built during their adventure. It's very easy to see how that sort of worldview could devolve into complete dehumanization of races that live shorter lives. Especially when the amount of mana one has is completely reliant on how long one has lived and inborn talent, meaning that the average elf is far stronger than the average human when it comes to magic.
My dude has been absolutely RUINED by industry corner cutting in lesser anime. Im not bashing anyone, but we remember that before 3D this *would* have been animated traditionally, right?
The Demons in this series are only similar to humans in our world if you're talking about sociopathic serial killers. Like the demons in this series as a species completely lacking any form of empathy or sympathy. These demons prey on "human" species, humans and Elves and dwarves in this world. These demons are pure predators. They really are monsters. And these demons know they're monsters. They are fully aware that they are predators who only use words as a weapon to deceive.
The issue is the demon child in this episode wasn’t hunting. She killed the village elder so she could give his daughter to the woman she ate the daughter of so they could make amends. It literally WAS an attempt at empathy! “You’re mad at me because I took your daughter… I know I’ll get you the best daughter in town!” She only turned into a hostage situation when she realised she made a mistake and feared for her life. In a weird way the demon child DID consider the village home.
@@Crazygamergal the problem is that it's more like how a human world try to replace the dead offspring of a farm animal with another young they could take care of. demons at best can only think of humans the same way a farmer thinks of livestock. It wasn't even about empathy, the demon child was thinking in its own logic that I'll just replace the one I ate and that should be good enough to placate them. The demon child didn't feel sorry about eating the little girl. She didn't feel sorry for her parents. She just knew that they were hostile towards her so she thought that she could just replace the girl she ate with a different girl and they wouldn't be hostile towards her anymore. And she killed that girl's father so he wouldn't be around to be mad about her taking his daughter to replace the one she ate. There was nothing emotional about it, just cold logic from a creature incapable of knowing what families are or what love is.
@@Crazygamergal Yeah, exactly! That's what I was thinking. I love how you can already see a glimpse of what will be explored in the Golden City Arc, all the way back in Episode 7.
@@Crazygamergal I don't think it was an attempt at empathy, insofar as the Demon child was capable of understanding what action caused the woman to want to kill her (You ate my daughter!) and then took the most direct action to try and resolve the predicament (give her another daughter) to preserve her favorable state of being (not being killed). But the fact that she killed the village chief and took his daughter to replace the one that she ate proves that her actions weren't based off empathy, otherwise she would have understood the reason why the woman was mad at her for eating her daughter, and would have realized that her actions would anger the entire village. Like, there was no reason to kill the village chief even if she wanted to take his daughter to replace the one she killed.
@@Birthday888 yeah but if she wanted to not be killed she could’ve just ran away in the middle of the night. She WAS comfortable living peacefully in the village. It’s not that I’m saying the character herself was a good person. But that the way the author tried to make the demons evil into a scientific thing was done in an abilist manner. Saying “we can’t be at peace with them because their brains are wired differently so therefore it’s ok to mass massacre even the little girls” DOES demonise neurological differences even if the author didn’t intend it to.
45:41 - yeah, if anyone has a copy of the book "Maus", have a look at the quote that was chosen to open the book and who it is from. 59:56 - The Japanese did it too, Nanjing being the most known example. Literally taught to view themselves as human and all "others" as insects that are not human.
i see the Demons in Frieren like what other people see Frieren as. Lots of people would say that Frieren has no emotions, or doesn't care about people, while Demons truly don't have human emotions but can fake them with a propose. "Humanity" in this show always refers to Humans, Elfs, Dwarves and maybe other flesh people, who probably "evolved" from the same place, and in those there is so much variation that I would not call the show racist for showing demons as something completely outside of humanity. The fact that the biggest difference that is made is that Demons don't have families (or much of a society) is also telling the viewer that you can't dehumanize someone who has a family or loved ones, as all humans in real life have/can have. They do make an effort to relate to the demons even if it fails. I also like how Frieren doesn't stop their efforts, she wont stop people from trying to make amends with demons even if they never have worked in her very long life, and even if she herself despises them.
Demons in this show are more of a predator species tht evolved the ability to mimic and learn human speech as an efficient way to hunt prey, they often dont even know the meaning of the words they yse, they just know what words work a
I think Frieren gets away with its depictions of demons because, instead of showing them as irrational monsters, they are presented as hyperrational creatures. In a way, they are more like robots than they are animals.
so glad to see you talking about the floating rock, the first time i watched this episode, i was freaking out about it too, but it seemed like no one else even cared about it a little bit XD
I imagine demons could, theoretically, be reasoned with eventually. It would require them to learn concepts they currently have no handle on, but it is not impossible. However, that doesn't mean that any particular demon is making an honest effort. I like that the show is establishing demons not as a moral issue, but as a cultural issue. If someone tries to bring it into the real world, they must somehow say a culture exists only to harm humans. *That* is an impossible task, though some people don't seem to realize as much. We can see from the young demon in this episode that she truly wanted peace and even went out of her way to help people, but her methods were not culturally informed. In the future, I'm sure we'll see some other demon that seeks peace and is better adjusted to human culture. Frieren will learn her lesson, but this world is not so simple that the first demons they meet are honest actors.
23:00 if you like watercolors, Grimgar: Ashes and Illusions might be another good anime to give a try. Lots of similarities with Frieren, actually, as a slower paced more humanity-focused fantasy story. One of my favorites. I love the background art in Grimgar so much, though it clearly had a lower budget than Frieren got.
Thank you for the discussion of the dangers of an unnuanced depiction of monsters. I have said the same thing in the comments of several videos about Frieren. I would add that the use of "completely evil" races in fiction is fine, not just because it's not about real people - you commented in another episode's reaction that "if you don't code your own characters, then the audience will do it for you"; in other words, it's always about real people - but because such a depiction allows one to examine one's own responses to aggression and moral dilemmas. You just have to be careful not to take away the wrong lessons from such abstraction.
So I went ahead and translated all the named characters' names roughly in order of appearance. A lot of these names are very telling so be careful if you're very sensitive to spoilers. I am german myself but some of these translations could still be off (some may be up to interpretation) you are welcome to argue me on them. So here we go: Frieren - freezing/feeling cold Himmel - sky Heiter - cheerful/happy Eisen - iron Ewig - eternal Fern - far Qual - torment Flamme - flame Stark - strong Granat - garnet Lügner - liar Linie - line Draht - wire Wirt - host Mut - courage Gabel - fork Stoltz - pride Kraft - power/strength Sein - (to) be Voll - full Nagel - nail Lawine - avalanche Kanne - can Übel - bad Wirbel - whirl Scharf - sharp Ehre - honor Denken - thinking Richter - judge Laufen - running Genau - exactly/accurately Edel - precious/fine Blei - lead Dünste - vapor Ton - sound/clay ? Länge - length Methode - method Sense - scythe Lernen - learning Falsch - wrong Serie - series Lecker - delicious PS: If this gets popular I might do the same thing for named locations.
i will be completely honest - i enjoy tf out of demon depictions in frieren for the same vague reasons i enjoy Very Obvious depictions of villians in Disney who are straight up just like that. I understand that its "problematic" by todays standards of media depiction on villany and antagonism, but my god it felt refreshing af to me at least. I think that i IT Is interesting and has great value to depict "villanous" traits in such a way and is definitely underutilized trope in media, its been forever ago i saw Demons actually being you know.. DEMONS. Of course because of historical and social context in should be done responsibly and needs to have a lot of caveats and specifications for it not to go the same route you described. Still, i cant help but enjoy these kind of antagonists... They dont even feel like creatures with " evil" intentions, they always seemed to me like perfect predators who were evolved to specifically prey on humanoids of this world, they use speech patterns and words that trigger emotional responses within us to get what they want which is fascinating concept to me. They remind me great deal of species of the analogue horror series "Vita Carnis", Mimic types to be specific who, like Frieren's demons, perfect predators to humans and use different tactics to lure it's prey ( tho those are much closer to animal) . If you ever wanna compare demons to real life counterparts within humans variable of behaviour the closest to them are serial killers and murderers - people who are already committed atrocities. To me, at the very least
its perfectly understandable to be concerned about catagorising anyone as murderers or unremeedable incudling those who have social disorders such as psychopathy, however it is worth noting that this show also often frames frieren herself as emotionless and cold, the representation is at least mixed in this show when it comes to that demographic, which is miles better then any standard fantasy in this regard. that having been said i do see where you coming from, and there have been poeple taking the worst possible reading (e.g the fasist one) from the race of evil demons. but ive seen the worst takes be drawn from the most innocent sources, but that dosent mean that source lacks value, and frieren does draw a connecting thread between deamons and elves where this is going to go im not sure (not even the manga as finished this aspect yet). frieren also has good repersentaion in it human charaters, who would be one Dimensional in other shows especially with some who would be simple badguys.
11:35 Not quite sure about the English dub, but in some subtitle editions, it's worded out as “Master” Stark, I guess in a way to make it closer to the Germanic origins
Very very minor spoiler, and I'll go into as little detail as possible because this hasn't come to the anime yet. Yes, the series does eventually attempt to explore whether or not Demons are capable of experiencing human emotions. There will be a prominent demon later on in the story who wants nothing more than to understand what it is to be human and tries everything he can think of to empathize with them.
Frieren is one of my favourite series, I look forward to each of your commentaries, Skyen, and have loved the anime that has been sublime. When/if you catch up, please consider reading and commenting on the manga too! ✨
tbf uncompromising monsters are pretty common in horror, usually what makes horror work is that the threat cannot be reasoned with, granted it's often like one monster it's not a "race" of monsters though you still have that sometimes with things like the alien franchise, or a quiet place, etc. I definitely get the concern of how this sort of thing can be weaponized but I do think the concept of a monster that is really good at giving a false impression of humanity is a pretty solid horror concept as essentially a heightened final culmination of the premise of a mimic. Some of the most disturbing monsters are ones that use mimicry in some way, there's a monster in made in abyss that mimics the cries of its victims to lure in more prey who are coming to help, it's more animalistic looking than Frieren's demons but it's a pretty similar concept.
38:20 As far as demons being forces of malice goes... you REALLY need to read the manga. That becomes a key plot point in an arc that hasn't been animated yet. Also, I never really thought of Captain Marvel as being propaganda for the US Air Force. I think it definitely makes sense the way you put it, but I also think that having the protagonist work for and become disillusioned with a Western-coded military force that has literally brainwashed her into believing they're the good guys and that the Skrulls they're fighting are essentially "monsters" provides enough internal tension to make a critical viewer wary of rooting for the US Air Force.
As for your rant on cutting corners and watching for it, did you ever watch the "So I'm a spider, so what?" anime? It went through some budget and time constraint twist and turns which really hit the second cour hard (and has a lot of 3D in it, too). It could be interesting if you haven't watched it yet.
I don't know what kind of toys these studios have in their toolbox, but shading to make such a convincing 2D-appearing 3D render would itself be incredibly skillful, especially since it would need to be configured to match the 2D art style.
The basic premise of Frieren just needs demons to work this way. Because if "talking it out" was an option, then the party of heroes murdering the demon king suddenly becomes very morally gray, which just goes completely against the intended characterization of the heroes, especially Himmel. Any Show that wants to have this portrayal of chivalrous, honorable combat, when in real life most people agree that violence is inherently bad, needs to find a way to build a world where its necessary and justified. Personally i thought that the pure evil demons kind of make bland characters, much preferred the characters that get introduced in the second half of the season
hey, I just wanted to say thank you for the section talking about demons. When reading online about it, most ppl dismissed me being too sensitive or how "things just aren't allowed to be pure evil anymore". (some spoilers for later episodes and uuuh vague fate grand order lb6 spoilers) . Personally I really dislike the portrayal of the demons, they just make me really uncomfortable I heard some manga readers say it gets more complex later, but then I hear from others it's just the introduction of one more complex demon character and not the whole race as a whole getting a retrospective. (but i might be wrong, since i havent read it myself, so please take it with grains of salt) I think why really got me was in a later episode, we find out more about demon and their culture and the insistance that their culture is somehow more primal (dare say feral), was i guess then too close to home and I just ended up dropping the show. For me the show was a lot about empathy and connection. Which is why I really have a hard time stomaching the demons portrayal here versus for example the goblins in goblin slayer. so this whiplash between the general empathy and trying to find connection contrasting the total apathy towards the demons, made me go :/ I kinda get what angle the author probably was trying for, but yeah, it didn't hit for me. Honestly, I think a way better iteration of the kind of creatures the demon are supposed to embody, were the fae in fate grand order lb6 they try imitate humans, talk like them, rebuild their buildings, even mimic their behavior and following their customs. but they don't understand them, so it's just kinda empty motions. however the fairies, even their ancestor who didn't imitate humans yet, were capable of immense cruelty, commiting several atrocities. yet the story calls them innocent, not because they're good, but because they're like children. this is their nature. so even when they have commited those atrocities, it's not evil, as they don't understand what evil or good is. however what is not in their nature, is them doing said atrocities. this is not natural. and because they're liek children, as long they're taught correctly or just guided in the general direction, they can be good, empathetic. i felt that this was a way more compelling way to portray a race that's like humans, but definitely not, alien and far removed but also not condemning them to be something that needs to be purged or similar. they're capable of immense cruelty, but... so are humans, aren't we? anyway uuuh this ramble got long, but yeah i just dropped by this episode because I was curious what you had to say about the demons, haha.
Homo homini lupus- if you do not believe that real demons live among us then I would say that speaks to a dearth of experience. There are indeed men for whom the only answer is violence. Statistically about 1% of the population but there is a stable minority for whom vae victics is their only law. Empathy will be met with exploitation. Kindess with contempt and understanding will only bring the realization that destruction and isolation are the only solution.
...I'm sorry but unless an author wants to write a morality play or an aesop, authors have no obligation to handhold readers with how something is bad. They just don't. Whatever the reader takes away from it, even if it goes against what the author meant, is the reader's choice. The band Rage against the Machine is very damn clear what they believe in. It didn't help them against the Republicans' misunderstanding them.
At this point series could be called "TBSkyen reacts | Frieren: JUST PUT 3D MODELS THERE, YOU, EVIL PEOPLE"
AKA Madhouse is MAD with their animations
Skyen about the Frieren anime in a nutshell;
"How dare you guys put so much ridiculous great effort into this?!" (affectionate)
Remember episode 4 ? You were like "no more movie budget animation, now let's see how the animation will go". So sweet and innocent, good times.
He will go nuts with Stark's jacket next next episode.
This Episode gave me a laugh flash.
Because "Lügner" is german for "liar" and paired with the situation that the "Demon Peace-envoy" had such a name was just hillarious to me.
Also the one with the Wire Powers has the Name "Draht"....which is german for Wire. The Naming in this show is really funny for someone who speaks german.
It works atleast for me compared to other shows that use German for places and people.
The names get me every time. I'm dutch so I know / can guess enough german words to immediately get what they're going for.
Having the page envoy be named the German word for "liar" is the same vibe as having the suspiciously corruptible childhood friend be named Judas.
There is a running theory that the names are retrospective in nature. That the narrator or one reliving these memories didn't remember anyone's name so they are using themes of the character as the name instead.
SO, the way I initially read the flashback and the general nature of demons, specifically from the behavior of that little girl demon. For context, I am exactly this far into the show and no further.
From her point of view, she killed the chief to give the woman his daughter as a replacement for eating her daughter, because she could tell the woman hated her. In her way, she was trying to right a wrong, hoping the woman would leave her in peace afterwards and was confused when she did not receive the desired reaction.
The way I read it as that demons are not inherently immoral beings, strictly speaking, but inherently amoral. They do not do evil things for the sake of doing evil things, at least not inherently within their nature. They do evil things because they don't have a concept for those things being "evil" and just do what feels right for them.
Outwardly, there is not much difference, but I feel the distinction between a creature that does evil for the sake of doing evil and causing unhappiness and a creature that just does what feels right and what feels right happens to be killing humans is important.
What the chief did was basically equivalent to adopting a tiger and acting shocked when the tiger decided to eat him. Demons do evil things simply because they either don't understand or don't care about the human concept of morality.
At least that's my initial reading of it after this episode.
I've read that the technical definition of "sin" in theology is to do that, which you know to be wrong. It stands to reason that a being without a functioning understanding of right and wrong can't be evil, only dangerous.
I'm such a Mark. After the Demon Girl killed the elder, I'd still be like "Okay, clearly there are still some misunderstandings. Let's work on those."
There's a part much later in the manga where a demon just keeps slaughtering people trying to understand their emotions
They really just don't ever get it
@@Rannos22 thanks for the casual spoiler....
@@Rannos22 ohhh thats fun! that'll be relly fun to watch a demon rematch- and more of a crazy one anyway bak to the man dying
@@ryzardthewyzard6338 I figured opening with "later in the manga" was enough to alert one that I'm about to say something that could be considered a spoiler
@@Rannos22 I figured not mentioning spoilers in the comments section of a video where someone (and some viewers) wouldn’t want to see spoilers would be common sense, but here we are.
Don’t mean to be rude, but it does boggle the mind.
The first pause for the rock.
The anime subtitles: "Hey, is that really necessary?" I laughed xD
Love the reaction.
Frieren's production budget allocation is genuinely a masterclass that could be considered the gold standard of the industry. It doesn't totally lack cool sakuga moments, but so much more of the attention goes to subtle character acting and immersive moments that help realize the world and characters. There are a few episodes I'm VERY excited to see you get to eventually, though I wont mention them because spoilers. I'm glad you're back on Frieren, I could do these watchalongs every day until the end of the season easily haha.
Frieren's take on demons is pretty interesting. I wouldn't say that they're inherently _evil_ - because they're not human enough to even have a _concept_ of good and evil. They are, quite simply, predators, who have evolved to prey on humans specifically.
Just like a lion isn't evil for killing and eating an antelope, a demon isn't evil for doing the same thing to a human. They are simply living out the function they have evolved for, using the tools they evolved for that purpose. Sharp intellect and the ability to emulate human speech to lull their prey into a false sense of security.
They _are_ highly intelligent, so some of them try to relate to the human experience and comprehend why we act the way we do - but they simply exist completely outside of the human spectrum of morality, and can't feel or understand these things the same way we do. They simply didn't evolve to have social tendencies like that. They can observe or even study humans, but the disconnect happens on a fundamental level.
So yeah, demons in Frieren are neither good or evil. They simply act according to their own nature, which is that of a predator hunting humans. It's not a question of morality.
I'd say they're much like olden fairies where in that having no capacity for sincere malice, ironically makes them beings of malice in itself. When one is instinctually evil, having good actions aren't an oxymoron, just merely their mood/plan. Hence why a lot of people relate them to the sociopath mentality of a serial killer than animals.
We humanize animals too much and don't consider the lion has no capacity of higher society, communication or diplomacy. As do all our animal food sources.
Demons all do, but in their very nature, they can't refuse the call of slaughter and trivialization of humans.
My impression is there was a wave of stories where it was fun to subvert storybook monsters by exploring them as people, now there's a new wave subverting that by reexploring monsters as dread eldritch horror, implacable and alien. Fey, vampires, werewolves, etc.
I don't really agree with this. While that explanation would work for an animal, demons aren't really. The level of intelligence they demonstrate is that of a sapient being capable of reasoning, not an animal simply following it's instincts. Demons are very clearly capable of understanding "why" humans are the way they are, but they are incapable of empathizing with it or "feeling" the things humans do due to their extreme asocial nature. However they still demonstrate basic survival instinct and clearly do value their own lives, which on it's own would allow a "you don't kill me i don't kill you" sort of coexistence, if it wasn't for the other aspect of their nature - their extreme sense of superiority over humanity.
That sense of superiority is why they don't try to understand humans despite being capable of doing it, it's why they see no reason to coexist with humanity. In their own moral framework of course they're not evil, because their moral framework is extremely simplistic, likely something as simple as "might makes right". From humanity's point of view though there is no question that they are evil beings, because despite having the capacity to try and understand, they don't.
Of course it's harder to have an in depth discussion because there are still a lot of questions about demons that are unanswered. Is their sense of superiority a learned behavior? Is it part of their nature? Can you socialize them from birth and get a different result? How do they even reproduce? Surely they're not 40k orks reproducing through spores???
But fundamentally i'm not really willing to give frieren's demons the benefit of the doubt and call them simply animals following their instincts.
@@HeavenlyBrush I never said that they're animals following their instincts. Just that they evolved on a completely different path to humans, and thus have a fundamental lack of understanding of human emotions.
You sound like you're probably anime only, so I'm not gonna go into detail, but the manga has actually explored attempts at demon & human cohabitation pretty thoroughly; it's possible for them to exist side-by-side with each other, but that lack of understanding means that sooner or later, things will go wrong. Just like they did with that little demon girl in this episode - she did try to live peacefully with the villagers, but she couldn't understand the value of a human life, and the way she tried to make up for her initial mistake ended up being incredibly cruel because she didn't understand emotions or human connection. Even if demons try to live by human rules, that fundamental disconnect is going to get in the way.
This topic of how two species developing intellect independently could be really interesting to explore. Also since this is Frierens subjective perspective, it might not be as black and white as she thinks. The closest thing in real life might be how octopusses developed complex brains independent from humans with our last common ancestor being like 300 million years back. If octopusses developed until we could communicate, would there be fundamental difference like these?
As someone who is autistic and NPD (a deeply misunderstood disorder), I appreciate you talking about this. I also appreciate how the show handles it. Demons... aren't the only low-empathy characters we see. Frieren herself doesn't seem to operate on *empathy*, persay. She can't relate to most experiences of others, or even their emotions, but she cares anyway (admittedly I read her as more autistic than anything, its a good choice to depict someone with a radically different lifespan from humans, though her history would also make her actually qualify for a ASPD diagnosis. The factor that separates actual low empathy people from the pop cultural caricature of them)
The thing about CEOs and doctors and wallstreet people being sociopaths is... ehhhh, kinda bullshit? Sociopath isn't a real diagnostic thing, its a loosey goosey thing unlike ASPD (though ASPD is also weaponized against underprivileged people especially POC, and it is they who are most likely to have it). What your CEO is is...a normal person, put in a situation where all their incentives *require* dehumanization, and they're so privileged they can no longer relate to normal struggles. Essentially, its the dark side of empathy- it seems easy, at least to me, for people with empathy to only consider human those who have experiences they can and choose to relate to. Lacking it... its a lot easier to see everyone as deserving of the same things, a lot easier to not be biased towards those considered socially acceptable/good. Most atrocities are by normal people who have decided and conditioned themselves to only see as humans those who share their experiences. That is, at least part of what empathy seems to be.
Though what "empathy" means seems to be a dozen of barely related concepts strung together by language and a desire to separate "normal" people from the deeply traumatized or developmentally different. Its not some eternal, fixed concept, its a thing our society has built and remains out of reach for some of us.
Wouldn't normally make a post like this but you've cultivated a community that seems... safe enough? Hopefully others can speak of this respectfully and with curiosity instead of malice.
What is ASPD?
@@danello9091 Antisocial Personality Disorder, which is characterized by limited/nonexistant empathy, impulsivity (including suseptability to substance abuse and related issues), and a general feeling of emotional detatchment. Part of the diagnostic criteria is a history of trauma in early childhood.
Its a deeply misunderstood disorder, as are all personality disorders, especially cluster B (which consists of Borderline Personality Disorder, Histrionic Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and the aforementioned Antisocial Personality Disorder). All the cluster B disorders are characterized by emotional volatility of some form, impulsiveness, and erratic/difficult to understand behaviors
@@InnsannaStories Thank you for your reply, I think I knew someone who experienced this, they were diagnosed with sociopathy, but at the same time, it didn't make sense to them or to me, because they were a really nice and lovely person, one I got in a relationship with, in which they felt as if they could rediscover feelings they thought they weren't supposed to have, relating to people and stuff, still I'm very uneducated in the topic and I could be wrong in thinking that, I just wish I had known about this at the time, well I wish I had known more in general. Anyways, thank you again.
I haven't read the manga, but i can 100% say in the anime they don't fumble the demon "monster" aspect. They are an "anglerfish" but with speech instead of a light. They are an "RPG Monster" like any other but they have speech as their tool to fight against humans.
I actually find that I have a surprisingly amount of things to say about Demons in Frieren. I like to compare them to Mimics.
What is a Mimic? Is it a chest? Well, no. It just looks like a chest and sits in place with its mouth closed. I doubt a Mimic even understands what a chest is. They're pretty similar in that regard, though now that I think about it John Carpenter's "The Thing" would be a far more accurate comparison.
Narratively, I also personally see the story as comparing the Demons to Frieren herself. She doesn't have a great understanding of other people or their feelings and wears a similar blank expression to them. However, she's not treated like a monster because she doesn't take advantage of other people's feelings.
I'm happy that the show plays around with the concept and am curious to see what your thoughts will be.
The biggest thing with the demons is that not only do they not understand humans (and other humanoid races) but they have zero interest in learning how to understand them beyond what they can use to manipulate them better.
Welcome to Demons in Frieren
And in the first couple minutes of the show, the animators have successfully shattered Skyen’s mind like the rocks lmao
Huh, i kinda see your point there, back when this ep aired there were a ton of really heated discussion about frieren's depiction of demons, but ig it's all comes down to how much we can separate reality and fiction.
I love this show's depiction of demons, to me they're more like aliens with wildly different moral and understanding than human while also look like them.
Chatgpt monsters basically
@@graydanger that is an incredible way of putting it
TBSkyen:"You're in a desert, walking along in the sand, when all of a sudden you look down..." "Is the sand hand drawn or 3Danimation""
The subtitle on the top is really helpful for syncing
And when I'm out of town and can't really pull up 2 screens for this
>2 unavailable videos hidden
HOHOHOHO can't fucking wait, next two episodes go so fucking hard
There are different animators per episode I think (certainly different directors and storyboard editors). Therefore, to answer the question of why they would hand-animate rocks, imho, it is to show off. to their colleagues. It works.
This was honestly one of the most painful episodes to get through as a native German speaker.
It's building this whole reveal of how you can't negotiate with demons and whatnot after introducing the main negotiating party named LIAR.
i mean its not really a suprise. we are told like 3 different times to our face and by the demons themselves that they are lying
@@heckmelon9818 "But what if there's good ones tho???"
0:18 best description of Frieren I’ve ever heard.
May I add, autistic aro/ace elf going on an adventure*
Her only true love she's managed to be aware of is food, especially sweets and cakes lmao
There's just something lowkey refreshing about demons just being evil by nature. When it comes to anime depiction atleast
the real evil by nature are all the people who watch the show or read the manga and still somehow think the demons are evil
they aren't though, not inherently, the little demon girl didn't feel malicious the same way the demons at town right now, it felt like their concept of right and wrong is completely alien compared to ours
"refreshing" is apparently when an anime has similar worldbuilding to the Dungeons and Dragons monster manual.
TBSkyen based and human pilled
I will leave more thoughts in later episodes because I think some more things need to be showcased about demons but I do like how they are shown in a very complex ways. Many people immediately said its good to have true evil demons again but I feel like its a bit more complicated which I do enjoy. It really sticks with me how the demon girl specifically made the choice to kill the village chief but not his child to replace the child she took. I really hope further in the series we see a clearer reason why they specifically kill humans if not for food but at least in some parts demons and humans can't coexist here is just because they see the value of life and social relations in drastically different ways and I find that a fascinating moral question that is posed.
Having read the manga up to volume 11, I really wonder where the story about the nature of demons is going to go. It seems to me that towards the end of Frieren, this will become one of the central questions and I don't yet know where it's gonna lead. I won't spoil anything but this is not the last time Frieren will examine this subject and so far, this examination hasn't concluded yet.
Frieren episodes in a nutshell:
😮 (Extras moving smoothly) 👈😲
Love your videos!😂
You actually can communicate with Dragon Quest monsters. When they attack you in battle, they are the aggressor and its less of an issue. But they do tend to have their own villages, can speak and will emphasize that they are, "Not a bad slime *slurp" whenever they aren't evil.
soo i only started watching Frieren because of your reactions, but it hooked me so hard that i couldnt stop myself from binging it in two days. really interested to see your reactions, i just really love the vibe this anime gives and its definitely in my top 3 of like the past 2 years of anime
You have no idea how hyped I was when I first watched Frieren calmly warn the assassin he is about to make a grave mistake. Up until then I never expected this anime to go for this kind of conflict, the slow-paced slice of life is already great.
In the first episode, there definitely are 3D horses, they may have been reused for some of those animations.
I like how you immediately considered Frieren might be ace. We don't have that much representation on that side (Apothecary Diaries has great aro-ace vibes though), so it's refreshing.
I just love how the demon peace envoy's name is basically "Mr Big Fat Liar".
And. The demons themselves dehumanize humans as well. Why else did the demon girl try to give the gurl to the grieving parents? She saw the lives of the little girl she killed and the man who took her as nothing. She saw the life of the little girl she killed as replaceable. "Yeah, I broke your doll so I stole one to replace it!"
And even the demon girl was spared and lived with the family, did she feel some affection for them to make her hesitate? She was so logical in replacing the girl she killed but not logical enough to figure out it would cause more distress.
Tackling demons in Frieren without spoiling stuff is very difficult, but I will give it a try. Especially since this was the part of Manga that immediately sent me into thinking on how Demons and "Humanity" (which for simplicity includes Elves and Dwarfs) could co-exist. And whether it is even possible. It is recreation of my own thought experiment that I did years ago after reading few chapters of this arc. To be specific I asked myself: "What would have to happen for Demons and "Humanity" to co-exist, given that they fought each other and seem to be very different from each other". This did require some leaps in logic, but was very fun and very intellectually stimulating.
But let me preempt this by congratulating you on possibly the best "talk" on the topic of this trope in fiction that I've heard. And there are some good videos out there on this specific topic. Yes - just as Granny Weatherwax from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series said (I don't remember exactly how quote began, but I'm certain about meaning): "Problems start when you start to think about people as things/objects".
And to remind people - there was study of brains of War Criminals that were convicted in Nurnberg Trials. Psychologists and Psychiatrists didn't want to analyze them - because they were afraid of what possible results could say. Until the person who was in charge of that project anonymized them and sent "exhibits" to many professionals in the world for them to give their opinion. Vast majority of them said that they were not psycho or sociopaths. Until then the belief was that Holocaust and whole Nazism was basically a freak event, because power in the country was taken by people who were predisposed towards crimes against Humanity from the birth. People believed that it couldn't occur anywhere else, unless so many offices in the country would be taken by "psychopaths", which was thought to be statistical improbability. Now we know that "regular", "normal" people are completely capable of such and similar Crimes Against Humanity, Genocide and War Crimes.
When it comes to fiction - yes this trope is fine. I don't think anyone will watch Frieren and think: "Well, marginalized people are like those Demons". If they do, then they already had such beliefs and impact of Frieren in their belief will be negligible to zero. It will be just like saying that someone committed violence because they played GTA or Mortal Kombat. Usually the fact that said person did some heinous crimes has multiple factors. Much, much more important ones. Though I do want to warn against saying that such tropes or such games are "harmless". In vacuum? Sure, they should be. If someone only plays various violent games for decades and doesn't consume other type of media that wouldn't be similar - that might result in difficulties in differentiating fiction from reality. Which might result in some violent actions. Though couple of important caveats:
1. It's still unlikely that this is the only or even majority reason for said violence.
2. At some point I included violent games in the mix for comparison - those (especially with some story) often do include direct de-humanization of Humans. Frieren doesn't.
3. We're talking long term exposure to multiple works of fiction that all have the same trope. None of those works alone (probably not even those that do directly dehumanize people - Frieren doesn't do it directly) is likely to be enough on it's own.
4. It certainly doesn't mean that such works of fiction should be banned. Definitely not Frieren. Works that directly dehumanize people are "problematic", but their danger depends on media literacy. They shouldn't be banned, but we should for example not allow our Children to play/watch them. I'm speaking of the type of fiction that, unlike Frieren, is for example actually racist or transphobic AND condones such behavior. Personally I would not want to read/watch/play something that is so hateful and is proud of itself for being hateful.
5. We have to focus primarily on education so that people are capable of understanding the difference between reality and fiction. That dehumanization of certain creatures in fiction doesn't mean that it is okay to move said dehumanization to real people. And that treating other people as "sub-human" or even worse is ALWAYS horrible and should always be opposed.
I will only say that I do love Frieren as both Manga and Anime (which IMO elevates the source material even higher). I can't exactly talk about Demons in detail without spoiling stuff, but what I can say without spoiling (mostly using this episode and logic as reference, maybe some small inconsequential details from this arc, but no further and I tried avoiding even that) is:
1. One of the obstacles in achieving co-existence is that both Frieren and Demons can live very long (Qual said "only 80 years"). They both have their own views and their prejudices. It's gonna be hard to change them.
2. Behavior of younger, less powerful demons looks more promising. It's not different enough for co-existence, but it shows that there might be a chance. Not a big one, but a chance.
3. To mirror both of above points, now that it has been almost 80 years since Demon King has been defeated - Humans specifically will be moving away from just blind hatred. Though within the fiction this comes with a drawback that might lessen their chances of defending themselves against the demons who do want to harm them. Which is still vast majority of Demons, because - and this is fine in fiction - conflict between them is mostly existential. One species cannot live if other lives or at least as long as either of them attacks the other or is seen as threat.
So with that out of the way, I feel like the best chance will come from younger, weaker Demons, if they manage to learn that killing and/or eating humans is directly lowering their chances of survival. Sadly said group will be seen as they are enemies, by not only "Humanity", but also by any stronger Demon that doesn't share the same simple view. Therefore they would have to live somewhere where chances of meeting said Demons is small. And where humans and possibly also Dwarfs and Elves (if there are any in that region), now don't have that instinctual "hatred" for demons.
Trying to analyze it in more detail would require spoilers. I could go more in-depth, but that is as much as I can infer based only on this arc and honestly mostly logic and what was shown in this episode and before it (flashback scene and behavior and talk of Demons that serve Aura the Guillotine - someone who we know has to have "older" views, because they served Demon King in very high role. I assumed that "demon child" was both young and not part of Demon King's forces. I assumed that Elves and Dwarfs live sufficiently long that their stance towards the demons would not be substantially different than it was 80 years ago.).
I do wish them luck - they will need it. While co-existence seems possible, it doesn't look very probable. A lot of things would have to pan out in certain way. This was my mental exercise. I won't "hate" Frieren if it doesn't do that. It's fiction after all and one that is superbly beautiful and with tons of worth and beautiful other topics.
The real demons are the animators of the show
dont let real world problems make you dislike the way demons are depicted in Frieren, sir Skyen. To me it's just a refreshing way to portrait villains since nowadays most stories present "relatable" villains, so seeing a "evil because evil" enemies is a breath of fresh air.
You aren't ready for the next few episodes. Thanks for the reaction
I'm at the minute 45 of your video, and I have something to add about the demon discourse in Frieren. Notice that the behaviour of the demon girl doesn't match the interpretation of Frieren of the events. The girl is confused and actually just trying to survive by the means she have. She didn't kill the village elder for malice - she did it because she truly believed that it was something that would warrant her own survival. There is a deeper narrative on the demons that go beyond Frieren's and Flamme's PTSD.
Anyway, that detail does not invalidate what you said about the dangers of that kind of narrative. Your commentary on that was very well placed.
I definitely agree that Flamme and Frieren - while they are authority on Demons in their respective times, they are definitely biased. It's both understandable and a bit horrifying - considering what it might have led to or might lead to in the future (for Frieren specifically). I do love this show and the Manga and I don't have a problem with this trope. But some people out there also pretend that Frieren herself is 100% correct and cannot be wrong. Which is not true.
oh wow you added the little semi-translucent box at the top that shows a small portion of the bottom of the screen, nice! I was going to suggest doing that when I started watching your Frieren videos the other day, since it makes it a lot easier to make sure we're sync'd up. I guess other people have also suggested it lol
Something sort of interesting the flashback in this episode does that I'm not really sure the /narrative itself/ realizes it's done, is that it kind of proves the opposite of its point.
Full understanding between the two species might not be entirely possible just because human thought and emotion is just as defined by our evolution as theirs is- we're a social species that can work alone in a pinch, they're a solitary species that can work together in a pinch- but peace is, /coexistence/ is.
The demon child wasn't baiting the chief and his daughter for anything, they weren't tricking them, they were just fulfilling their end of the transaction the Chief offered them, because that's a social framework they understood; they work the farm and in exchange they get to live in peace. But then, the woman whose child they ate was always there, always watching, they could feel her eyes in their back; with the way the demon child behaved, if /she/ hadn't been antagonistic, neither would they.
But she was, and so the child tried to find a way to fix the problem, right the wrong they had done. Their solution doesn't work from an emotional standpoint, but it does from a transactional one. They took something from her, so they provided something of equal value to balance the scales. There was no malice, nothing even predatory about it, just transactional practicality in service of peacemaking, and when it didn't work they were confused and scared. By everything they understood, they did the correct thing.
Demons are very sensitive to mana, which makes them sensitive to the intent of people around them, if you can approach them with truly peaceful intent, they can feel that, if you provide them with a situation where being antagonistic won't solve anything they won't be. So the way to make peace with them really is just to be kind without ulterior motive on an individual level, provide a path to peace they can understand. Treat them like monsters and they will behave like monsters, treat them with dignity and respect and they will reciprocate, which is honestly the truth of all social interaction, if you treat people poorly they will behave poorly.
Here’s the thing people have always tended to have nasty tribal like tendencies. I don’t think a writer has personally responsibility to be heavy handed as you seem to want it to be. To incorporate a concept cause certain bad people can misinterpret it. Since no matter what you do they’re will be group of people that will transform your work. Like look at how republicans love world warhamer and look up to emperor that writers obviously made to speak out against them. Hell one of my favorite movie whiplash certain people look up to the disgusting teacher who abused his student. They think the movie was trying to say the girlfriend beneath him etc. As long the intent isn’t to target then it’s not their responsibility. Feel like frieren has a rather fresh take cause unlike something like hazbin hotel the demons don’t feel like slightly reskinned human. They feel like a different entity
Finally! Some more Frieren: Surely it's 3D right?!
the subtitle only idea is pretty neato if i do say so myself
21:42 Yeah. The fact that this shows "Low-End" is "perfectly servicable" is a a valid reason to be slightly, definitely, ambigiously mad at this crew :D
They got settled with the doom of compromise and decided: "how about we just.... don't?"
it is a joy to see you fly off the handle about these little things ^^
Man, I hate to say it but the lack of 3d animation is exactly part of why it feels so good to watch. 3d animation just never looks like 2d. it comes close, but it will never really do it. even tracing and stuff like that is better usually. 3d is usually stylistically corrupt and clashes with the show 7 times out of 10.
FINALLYYYYYY. SO HAPPY. Was hoping for more of this :D
There is no point imho of abandoning the concept of irredemable monsters because of people who cannot separate reality from fiction. If we can't have a society that can deal with slight subtleties then we are lost regardless.
ah... my beloved passionate ranting XD
i like your zelda background.
*rubs hands together* Here we go. The next few episodes are going to be FUN
The thing that struck me in the flashback was that, well I'd seen the 'monster pretends to be human but is still a monster that wants to kill you' in Claymore. So I was expecting the girl to kill the other little girl as an easier target because she really wants that flesh or some such. But no, that's not the case, her motivation was still self preservation, she saw the grieving mother as a threat and did the only thing she could think of to negate that.
So the nature of monsters is not sadistic, it's a detached self preservation from a solitary species that makes it hard to comprehend from a social human standpoint. It's more purple and orange morality and if people understood that they cannot anthropomorphize them co-existence could still be possible if difficult.
"Just to bring in some FFFFFUCKING Sakuga" Pssst nobody tell him how Fucking Good this show gets.
Golden City Arc will deal with the subject of demons and coexistence so hope for a second season.
I'm so looking forward to that being adapted.
WE NEED MORE FRIEREN ASAP
Come back in about 4 hours and ten minutes :)
@@3BSkyen WOOOOOHOOOO
Demons have a distinct psychology that is very different from humans in the same way lions have a distinct psychology. They are another intelligent species, but how they think is different.
It is the same for elves, actually, but elves have a much more compatible psyche profile. Their big thing is they don’t understand romantic feelings or sexual attraction. Which causes friction with humans, it just isn't near as bad as what demons experience.
If you doubt this, watch a lot of reaction videos where people chastise Frieren for not picking up on Himmel's signals. They don’t understand that her mind does not work that way.
Well, I think their big thing is more general apathy towards other people rather than specifically romantic feelings or sexual attraction. Like, even Frieren dehumanized Himmel and Heiter by emphasizing how little of her lifespan they would exist for despite how strong of a bond they built during their adventure. It's very easy to see how that sort of worldview could devolve into complete dehumanization of races that live shorter lives. Especially when the amount of mana one has is completely reliant on how long one has lived and inborn talent, meaning that the average elf is far stronger than the average human when it comes to magic.
My dude has been absolutely RUINED by industry corner cutting in lesser anime.
Im not bashing anyone, but we remember that before 3D this *would* have been animated traditionally, right?
38:20 3BSkyen: "I think Frieren is setting up to teach us that Demons are a force of malice"
Macht of El Dorado would like to have words with you.😆😆
The Demons in this series are only similar to humans in our world if you're talking about sociopathic serial killers. Like the demons in this series as a species completely lacking any form of empathy or sympathy. These demons prey on "human" species, humans and Elves and dwarves in this world. These demons are pure predators. They really are monsters. And these demons know they're monsters. They are fully aware that they are predators who only use words as a weapon to deceive.
The issue is the demon child in this episode wasn’t hunting. She killed the village elder so she could give his daughter to the woman she ate the daughter of so they could make amends. It literally WAS an attempt at empathy! “You’re mad at me because I took your daughter… I know I’ll get you the best daughter in town!” She only turned into a hostage situation when she realised she made a mistake and feared for her life. In a weird way the demon child DID consider the village home.
@@Crazygamergal the problem is that it's more like how a human world try to replace the dead offspring of a farm animal with another young they could take care of. demons at best can only think of humans the same way a farmer thinks of livestock. It wasn't even about empathy, the demon child was thinking in its own logic that I'll just replace the one I ate and that should be good enough to placate them. The demon child didn't feel sorry about eating the little girl. She didn't feel sorry for her parents. She just knew that they were hostile towards her so she thought that she could just replace the girl she ate with a different girl and they wouldn't be hostile towards her anymore. And she killed that girl's father so he wouldn't be around to be mad about her taking his daughter to replace the one she ate. There was nothing emotional about it, just cold logic from a creature incapable of knowing what families are or what love is.
@@Crazygamergal Yeah, exactly! That's what I was thinking.
I love how you can already see a glimpse of what will be explored in the Golden City Arc, all the way back in Episode 7.
@@Crazygamergal I don't think it was an attempt at empathy, insofar as the Demon child was capable of understanding what action caused the woman to want to kill her (You ate my daughter!) and then took the most direct action to try and resolve the predicament (give her another daughter) to preserve her favorable state of being (not being killed).
But the fact that she killed the village chief and took his daughter to replace the one that she ate proves that her actions weren't based off empathy, otherwise she would have understood the reason why the woman was mad at her for eating her daughter, and would have realized that her actions would anger the entire village.
Like, there was no reason to kill the village chief even if she wanted to take his daughter to replace the one she killed.
@@Birthday888 yeah but if she wanted to not be killed she could’ve just ran away in the middle of the night. She WAS comfortable living peacefully in the village. It’s not that I’m saying the character herself was a good person. But that the way the author tried to make the demons evil into a scientific thing was done in an abilist manner. Saying “we can’t be at peace with them because their brains are wired differently so therefore it’s ok to mass massacre even the little girls” DOES demonise neurological differences even if the author didn’t intend it to.
Episode 7 of TBSkyen raging at the GOATs that are Madhouse
45:41 - yeah, if anyone has a copy of the book "Maus", have a look at the quote that was chosen to open the book and who it is from.
59:56 - The Japanese did it too, Nanjing being the most known example. Literally taught to view themselves as human and all "others" as insects that are not human.
finally, I thought you dropped it
I’m basically stalking to see the reactions to this serie.
i see the Demons in Frieren like what other people see Frieren as. Lots of people would say that Frieren has no emotions, or doesn't care about people, while Demons truly don't have human emotions but can fake them with a propose. "Humanity" in this show always refers to Humans, Elfs, Dwarves and maybe other flesh people, who probably "evolved" from the same place, and in those there is so much variation that I would not call the show racist for showing demons as something completely outside of humanity. The fact that the biggest difference that is made is that Demons don't have families (or much of a society) is also telling the viewer that you can't dehumanize someone who has a family or loved ones, as all humans in real life have/can have. They do make an effort to relate to the demons even if it fails. I also like how Frieren doesn't stop their efforts, she wont stop people from trying to make amends with demons even if they never have worked in her very long life, and even if she herself despises them.
Demons in this show are more of a predator species tht evolved the ability to mimic and learn human speech as an efficient way to hunt prey, they often dont even know the meaning of the words they yse, they just know what words work a
I think Frieren gets away with its depictions of demons because, instead of showing them as irrational monsters, they are presented as hyperrational creatures. In a way, they are more like robots than they are animals.
In this episode, Frieren gaslights the fuck out of Skyen.
so glad to see you talking about the floating rock, the first time i watched this episode, i was freaking out about it too, but it seemed like no one else even cared about it a little bit XD
Oh there have been SO MANY essays written about Frieren’s depiction of demons.
can you please link me to some you know??? 🥺 i am very interested
I imagine demons could, theoretically, be reasoned with eventually. It would require them to learn concepts they currently have no handle on, but it is not impossible. However, that doesn't mean that any particular demon is making an honest effort. I like that the show is establishing demons not as a moral issue, but as a cultural issue.
If someone tries to bring it into the real world, they must somehow say a culture exists only to harm humans. *That* is an impossible task, though some people don't seem to realize as much. We can see from the young demon in this episode that she truly wanted peace and even went out of her way to help people, but her methods were not culturally informed. In the future, I'm sure we'll see some other demon that seeks peace and is better adjusted to human culture. Frieren will learn her lesson, but this world is not so simple that the first demons they meet are honest actors.
it's so much fun rewatching this and nodding along with each of your admiration based freakouts ;D
"This is where the fun begins"
23:00 if you like watercolors, Grimgar: Ashes and Illusions might be another good anime to give a try. Lots of similarities with Frieren, actually, as a slower paced more humanity-focused fantasy story. One of my favorites. I love the background art in Grimgar so much, though it clearly had a lower budget than Frieren got.
this anime its the meaning of masterpiece!
I love this arc
Thank you for the discussion of the dangers of an unnuanced depiction of monsters. I have said the same thing in the comments of several videos about Frieren. I would add that the use of "completely evil" races in fiction is fine, not just because it's not about real people - you commented in another episode's reaction that "if you don't code your own characters, then the audience will do it for you"; in other words, it's always about real people - but because such a depiction allows one to examine one's own responses to aggression and moral dilemmas. You just have to be careful not to take away the wrong lessons from such abstraction.
So I went ahead and translated all the named characters' names roughly in order of appearance.
A lot of these names are very telling so be careful if you're very sensitive to spoilers.
I am german myself but some of these translations could still be off (some may be up to interpretation) you are welcome to argue me on them.
So here we go:
Frieren - freezing/feeling cold
Himmel - sky
Heiter - cheerful/happy
Eisen - iron
Ewig - eternal
Fern - far
Qual - torment
Flamme - flame
Stark - strong
Granat - garnet
Lügner - liar
Linie - line
Draht - wire
Wirt - host
Mut - courage
Gabel - fork
Stoltz - pride
Kraft - power/strength
Sein - (to) be
Voll - full
Nagel - nail
Lawine - avalanche
Kanne - can
Übel - bad
Wirbel - whirl
Scharf - sharp
Ehre - honor
Denken - thinking
Richter - judge
Laufen - running
Genau - exactly/accurately
Edel - precious/fine
Blei - lead
Dünste - vapor
Ton - sound/clay ?
Länge - length
Methode - method
Sense - scythe
Lernen - learning
Falsch - wrong
Serie - series
Lecker - delicious
PS: If this gets popular I might do the same thing for named locations.
i will be completely honest - i enjoy tf out of demon depictions in frieren for the same vague reasons i enjoy Very Obvious depictions of villians in Disney who are straight up just like that. I understand that its "problematic" by todays standards of media depiction on villany and antagonism, but my god it felt refreshing af to me at least. I think that i IT Is interesting and has great value to depict "villanous" traits in such a way and is definitely underutilized trope in media, its been forever ago i saw Demons actually being you know.. DEMONS. Of course because of historical and social context in should be done responsibly and needs to have a lot of caveats and specifications for it not to go the same route you described. Still, i cant help but enjoy these kind of antagonists... They dont even feel like creatures with " evil" intentions, they always seemed to me like perfect predators who were evolved to specifically prey on humanoids of this world, they use speech patterns and words that trigger emotional responses within us to get what they want which is fascinating concept to me. They remind me great deal of species of the analogue horror series "Vita Carnis", Mimic types to be specific who, like Frieren's demons, perfect predators to humans and use different tactics to lure it's prey ( tho those are much closer to animal) . If you ever wanna compare demons to real life counterparts within humans variable of behaviour the closest to them are serial killers and murderers - people who are already committed atrocities. To me, at the very least
More Frieren? Hell Yes, love it
Can't wait for episode 10!!!!! :D
its perfectly understandable to be concerned about catagorising anyone as murderers or unremeedable incudling those who have social disorders such as psychopathy, however it is worth noting that this show also often frames frieren herself as emotionless and cold, the representation is at least mixed in this show when it comes to that demographic, which is miles better then any standard fantasy in this regard.
that having been said i do see where you coming from, and there have been poeple taking the worst possible reading (e.g the fasist one) from the race of evil demons. but ive seen the worst takes be drawn from the most innocent sources, but that dosent mean that source lacks value, and frieren does draw a connecting thread between deamons and elves where this is going to go im not sure (not even the manga as finished this aspect yet). frieren also has good repersentaion in it human charaters, who would be one Dimensional in other shows especially with some who would be simple badguys.
i accidentally read the 7 as a 1 because the text was small so 0:36 happened to me XD
"Skyen and why he wants Frieren to use more 3D models"
11:35 Not quite sure about the English dub, but in some subtitle editions, it's worded out as “Master” Stark, I guess in a way to make it closer to the Germanic origins
Very very minor spoiler, and I'll go into as little detail as possible because this hasn't come to the anime yet.
Yes, the series does eventually attempt to explore whether or not Demons are capable of experiencing human emotions. There will be a prominent demon later on in the story who wants nothing more than to understand what it is to be human and tries everything he can think of to empathize with them.
Frieren is one of my favourite series, I look forward to each of your commentaries, Skyen, and have loved the anime that has been sublime. When/if you catch up, please consider reading and commenting on the manga too! ✨
This is my own believe, Madhouse use some of the budget from the Overlord S4 and put it on Frieren
tbf uncompromising monsters are pretty common in horror, usually what makes horror work is that the threat cannot be reasoned with, granted it's often like one monster it's not a "race" of monsters though you still have that sometimes with things like the alien franchise, or a quiet place, etc. I definitely get the concern of how this sort of thing can be weaponized but I do think the concept of a monster that is really good at giving a false impression of humanity is a pretty solid horror concept as essentially a heightened final culmination of the premise of a mimic. Some of the most disturbing monsters are ones that use mimicry in some way, there's a monster in made in abyss that mimics the cries of its victims to lure in more prey who are coming to help, it's more animalistic looking than Frieren's demons but it's a pretty similar concept.
I heard it 3rd hand so I can't say for certain, but I've heard that the director said in an interview there's no rotoscoping.
38:20 As far as demons being forces of malice goes... you REALLY need to read the manga. That becomes a key plot point in an arc that hasn't been animated yet.
Also, I never really thought of Captain Marvel as being propaganda for the US Air Force. I think it definitely makes sense the way you put it, but I also think that having the protagonist work for and become disillusioned with a Western-coded military force that has literally brainwashed her into believing they're the good guys and that the Skrulls they're fighting are essentially "monsters" provides enough internal tension to make a critical viewer wary of rooting for the US Air Force.
Just wait for episode 9... the animation gets better
As for your rant on cutting corners and watching for it, did you ever watch the "So I'm a spider, so what?" anime? It went through some budget and time constraint twist and turns which really hit the second cour hard (and has a lot of 3D in it, too). It could be interesting if you haven't watched it yet.
yeeeees
@27:30 Geometry shaders can do all sorts of things, and perturbation noise would be easy, but that isn't necessarily what's happening
I don't know what kind of toys these studios have in their toolbox, but shading to make such a convincing 2D-appearing 3D render would itself be incredibly skillful, especially since it would need to be configured to match the 2D art style.
YES finally more frieren
Frieren is back!
since you talked about it there is an english dub and also a german one, where all the people an places a pronouncesd correcly :)
wait until he reach those episode that got outsourced, he will calm down
The basic premise of Frieren just needs demons to work this way. Because if "talking it out" was an option, then the party of heroes murdering the demon king suddenly becomes very morally gray, which just goes completely against the intended characterization of the heroes, especially Himmel.
Any Show that wants to have this portrayal of chivalrous, honorable combat, when in real life most people agree that violence is inherently bad, needs to find a way to build a world where its necessary and justified.
Personally i thought that the pure evil demons kind of make bland characters, much preferred the characters that get introduced in the second half of the season
we are so close to peak (ep9)
hey,
I just wanted to say thank you for the section talking about demons.
When reading online about it, most ppl dismissed me being too sensitive or how "things just aren't allowed to be pure evil anymore".
(some spoilers for later episodes and uuuh vague fate grand order lb6 spoilers)
.
Personally I really dislike the portrayal of the demons, they just make me really uncomfortable
I heard some manga readers say it gets more complex later, but then I hear from others it's just the introduction of one more complex demon character and not the whole race as a whole getting a retrospective.
(but i might be wrong, since i havent read it myself, so please take it with grains of salt)
I think why really got me was in a later episode, we find out more about demon and their culture and the insistance that their culture is somehow more primal (dare say feral), was i guess then too close to home and I just ended up dropping the show.
For me the show was a lot about empathy and connection. Which is why I really have a hard time stomaching the demons portrayal here versus for example the goblins in goblin slayer.
so this whiplash between the general empathy and trying to find connection contrasting the total apathy towards the demons, made me go :/
I kinda get what angle the author probably was trying for, but yeah, it didn't hit for me.
Honestly, I think a way better iteration of the kind of creatures the demon are supposed to embody, were the fae in fate grand order lb6
they try imitate humans, talk like them, rebuild their buildings, even mimic their behavior and following their customs.
but they don't understand them, so it's just kinda empty motions.
however the fairies, even their ancestor who didn't imitate humans yet, were capable of immense cruelty, commiting several atrocities.
yet the story calls them innocent, not because they're good, but because they're like children.
this is their nature. so even when they have commited those atrocities, it's not evil, as they don't understand what evil or good is.
however what is not in their nature, is them doing said atrocities. this is not natural. and because they're liek children, as long they're taught correctly or just guided in the general direction, they can be good, empathetic.
i felt that this was a way more compelling way to portray a race that's like humans, but definitely not, alien and far removed
but also not condemning them to be something that needs to be purged or similar.
they're capable of immense cruelty, but... so are humans, aren't we?
anyway uuuh this ramble got long, but yeah i just dropped by this episode because I was curious what you had to say about the demons, haha.
Homo homini lupus- if you do not believe that real demons live among us then I would say that speaks to a dearth of experience. There are indeed men for whom the only answer is violence. Statistically about 1% of the population but there is a stable minority for whom vae victics is their only law. Empathy will be met with exploitation. Kindess with contempt and understanding will only bring the realization that destruction and isolation are the only solution.
Yay frieren
Hi Skyen, will u please react to the new Puella Magi Madoka Magica movie when it comes out this year? Thxx
Love uu😇
...I'm sorry but unless an author wants to write a morality play or an aesop, authors have no obligation to handhold readers with how something is bad. They just don't. Whatever the reader takes away from it, even if it goes against what the author meant, is the reader's choice.
The band Rage against the Machine is very damn clear what they believe in. It didn't help them against the Republicans' misunderstanding them.
The english dub is excellent: she calls him "Mister Stark"