One of my teachers taught me pedal tones by opening the water key on the tuning slide. This help me a lot because my "natural" pedal tone was a G(concert F) on the Bflat trumpet. Long way to lip it up to the C. 😄 My teacher believed that pedal tones help you get the sensation of making your bell vibrate and thus giving you a more tactile connection to the sound production. Great video Jon, gave me some great ideas for my next practice session. Thanks!
We bass trombone players LIVE for pedal notes. When I was a trumpet player trying to overcome an embouchure collapse after dental problems, I never really did get the hang of pedal notes on the trumpet despite having studied with a student of Bo Nilson. Of course, I also never really was successful with the transfer of free buzzing to mouthpiece to horn. It always skipped up a fifth on me. N.B. - I've never done any buzzing sine switching to t-bone in 1991. In any case, I always find your trumpet nerd stuff interesting, especially stuff that reminded me of the bad old days and are applicable to the bass bone. Keep up the great work!
This is one of the most informative videos I have seen regarding the pedal range on the trumpet. Back when I was in college I stumbled upon an ability to play what I knew then as C below low F#. I wasn’t majoring in music at the time, so I wasn’t familiar with the harmonic series, and I hadn’t heard the term “ pedal” used for the range. I used that C as part of my warmup…it came out sounding solid and in tune, probably due to using a 1.5C mouthpiece. I recently started back on the trumpet a few months ago after a 33-year break and am including pedal notes in my range development. So far I can reach double pedal C# without much issue. I have only seen one case in classical music that uses a pedal note: on the opening trumpet solo of Mahler’s 5th Symphony, the transcript of the solo for Bb trumpet (only seen on video) ends on pedal F. Most modern players omit it, mainly because most use a C trumpet which would have that solo ending on pedal Eb. I know of two pros who perform pedal notes. One is in a performance of Florentiner March by Mnozil Brass in which lead trumpet player Thomas Gansch ends a solo with pedal Bb. The other is Arturo Sandoval, who is a master of the pedal range. Thanks for sharing this video.
WOW, thank you so much for saying that! Glad you found it educational. It's funny how people can stumble upon certain skills. I started working on pedal tones in high school and didn't find it to be terribly difficult. This is probably due to the larger mouthpieces and orchestral equipment I was already playing as well as potentially something anatomically with my lips or jaw or something. You're right that everybody leaves out the low Eb, though I would call that a "real note" on the Bb and not a pedal, and a false tone if it was attempted with the 23 fingering on C trumpet. Arturo has other worldly pedals and could probably use it to summon all the animals in a several mile radius.🤣
In almost 40 years of playing I've noticed a few things in regards to pedal notes. Though I'm not against them 100% that fact that so many players don't play them properly is troublesome...as with everything, there's a right way to do them and a wrong way and if you're not going to do pedals properly, then I always suggest to excise them utterly. I've also noticed that those who use them rather religiously, that they have issues with tonging, Instead of a sharp direct "pop" in their attack, they get more of a "pewap" kind of attack. Back when Herbert L Clarke was with Sousa's band, a rather well renowned brass embouchure guru attended a Sousa concert and afterwards went to meet Mr. Clarke during intermission and while conversing with Mr. Clarke, they heard the infamous low fluttery sounds and when asked what that sound was, Mr. Clarke said "Oh, that's Harold Stanbaugh(sp) one of Cornetists and he practices pedal tones during the intermissions, then, gets back on the band stand and has trouble tonguing. So, works for some may or may not work for you.
Jon: This video is egregiously nerdy (to borrow one of your phrases from another one of your illuminating videos). It is wonderful to see how your mind plumbs the depths of a given trumpet topic, and brings to light new perspectives and fundamentals.
VERY cool! Pedals are a really important part of fundamental practice for me and these are great explanations of how to achieve this technique! On an aside, if we start seeing pedal notes in new compositions more regularly, I credit/blame you and this video. ;) Love these videos, Jon!
Like your vids! One tool that helped/helps me work up the pedal pitch, that only works on B down, is using the half step higher fingering to slot in the pitch then releasing or alternating with the pedal fingering and trying to recapture the sensations. e.g. low B 2 to pedal B open, then work it up on 2nd valve. I actually don't see the benefit of using those alternate fingerings in the pedal register, if the goal is to overcome the lack of resonance and have control over the pitch. You sound like a player who hasn't had to rely on developing pedals to correct some issue that wasn't happening otherwise, whereas I am one who finds them a valuable tool to help my concept and efficiency. Yeah there's players who never played one that can play all over the horn for sure, but some folks just can't figure things out any other way than with tools such as these. BTW you sound like a heck of a player!
Jon after watching your video I feel so low! Seriously great video! I believe the James Stamp Warm Up helped me more than other books to develop the pedal register. I also have a book I bought 40 years ago called "Double High C in 37 Weeks" by Roger Spaulding! It's an interesting approach that uses lots of pedal tones. After I got out of graduate school I actually used the book for 37 weeks! While it never gave me a double high C, it gave me a blistering A! I don't recommend the book because doing just that for 37 weeks will cause technique and articulation to suffer! Stamps approach did give me better control on the horn overall. I really appreciate your videos!🎺🎵🎶👍
Man, 8:27 to 8:46 was my favorite! I started messing with pedals in high school also. I’m ‘upstream’ player with a slight overbite and used to pivot when I was younger. I found that the pedals really helped me stabilize and get rid of my pivot. This made my wannna get my horn out and do some barking now. Haha! Thanks for sharing!
Glad to hear that! I sometimes do descending arpeggios into the pedal register as part of a "warm-down" following an extra strenuous service or practice session.
It is fine to play the pedal at the pedal resonance as an excercise. If you are playing it in tune on a trumpet then you are bending the pitch up. That is why it takes more effort. Playing the ( flat) resonance requires the least effort from embouchure and from blowing effort. Also it is bell size relative to bore that improves the tuning. Trombone is VERY cylindrical but has an easy pedal.
@@JonTalksTrumpet notice also that the resonance can be played very softly and with the least embouchure effort , to play the flat resonance in tune as C requires more embouchure and blowing effort. The alternative fingerings near the end of your video are demonstrating playing the resonance.
I can play a pedal C very easily with practice mute, which I use a lot for practising (not good, I know, but my family doesn't like noise). With mute it's only a little flat and I can bend the note up easily. Without mute, though, it's terribly flat. Maybe the fact that my trumpet cost 180 euros doesn't help. I can't seem to get a pedal C
Thanks; best explanation I've heard yet! Back in my youth I could play pedal C no problem, but now trying to get back into trumpet it remains elusive. Super easy with the whisper mute; will playing it with the mute help playing it without?
In my opinion it *can* help - in the sense that practicing it that way gives you a more definite physical sense of the slotting and pitch of a proper pedal c, giving you something to aim for!
@@JonTalksTrumpet Well you aren't gonna believe it, but I played with and without a mute for the last two practice sessions, and just now I got an unmuted pedal C. It was airy as heck, but it was in tune. Thanks again for the video and for the encouragement!
The first pedal tone my trumpet slots is an F (concert Eb). I can go down to the C too. It's not a false pedal. No. It's a solid pedal. Much more resonant than C. What's the deal with that?
How do I reach the low tones F to C#, below the regular range, but not in the pedal octave? Is this even possible at all by some trick like the pedal tones? Sometimes I need a low E.
There’s a good low F with the third slide thrown almost all the way to the end plus some first valve and 123. As far as low E, generally you have to do it as a “false” tone like I demonstrate in the early section of this video OR get a four valve instrument (or some kind of extra length rotor slide).
There is one example in the literature. Last note of the first mouvement of the Saint -Saens septet. If played on Eb trumpet which it is written for the last note is a low concert Eb or pedal C on the Eb trumpet. Anyway, you have an amazing pedal register, probably the best I’ve ever heard. Ever double on tuba?
Hey Stephen!!! That's a great example of a longer discussion I'm hoping to have about the timeline of the use of various types of trumpets throughout the history of our literature. The Saint-Saens Septet was written to feature the long valved Eb trumpet, so for that instrument the last note is a low C instead of a pedal C. Of course in the modern day this piece *is* usually performed on the "short" Eb so you are correct (though I think most people probably just take that note up, which is very practical). The same reasoning applies to the low concert Ebs in the Trumpet in Eb parts in Ein Heldenleben. YES - I did play tuba as a middle schooler actually. LOL
@@JonTalksTrumpet That makes sense. Guess that means the high concert Eb flat at the end of the piece would have been written as a double high C then on an alto or low Eb trumpet? Must of been a bit of a feat on the original instrument!! Anyway, I enjoy your videos Jon. But you need to be warned…I’m 66 years old and still a trumpet nerd. You have a life long affliction my friend!
The only orchestral part I saw the fundamental written (pedal c on d trumpet) was in Mendelssohn 5, first movement, second part. The part had both pedal C and the C BELOW THAT written by each other, so I'm guessing the composer wasn't sure which was possible. Long story short, neither of those were played.
The only thing I notice missing here is the double pedal register in trumpet methodology. It is debatable whether any of it helps normal register playing, but proponents of each type of pedal typically eschew the other type.
I guess you’re right, in the sense I have never experimented far past the pedals I show in this video. I’ve heard about double pedals and know they are part of a methodology or two - is that like below double pedal c?
@@JonTalksTrumpet This is part of Callet and BE methods, where instead of maintaining the same mouthpiece position, the bottom lip is pulled out of the mouthpiece to get double pedal C and below, so an octave below what you are showing here.
What is the intended benefit of working in that range? The thing that seems most likely or obvious is that it might help get the lip tissue vibrating in a more nuanced way, but I wonder what other benefits are claimed for practicing them?
I think their basic idea is that by doing them it is supposed to encourage a certain lip position with the lips kind of "rolled out". Then again some other advocates of normal pedals also say they do those to get a more pooched out, cushioned, lip position. Or like Thibaud, I think uses both. I don't know one way or another!
Jon this is super! But, I do have a problem with you saying that the trombones pedaltones are difficulty to play. Composer have written pedaltones for trombone for ages. Tenortrombones are sometimes suposed to play pedals, bass tromonosts have to perform pedals a lot. Actually the pedal Ab on basstrombone is one of the best notes in horn. But I do like your show because it does explain pedals for so man trumpetplayers that don´t know enough about them. Thankyou!
Sven - you are totally right! Shortly after posting this video I learned I was off base on that point. Somebody in this comment section explained it well I think - it has something to do with the difference between the bore size of the tubing and the bell size. So trumpet is hard to a play a pedal c on because the bell is not big enough? I think. I will probably use the youtube editor to cut out that part OR make a follow up someday explaining what I've learned.
I'm 37 years old. Been playing trumpet since I was 11. And I played my first ever pedal C before finishing this video!!!!! (about 7 minutes in)
Dude!!! That’s so awesome - so glad this video helped you!!! Have fun down in the basement!
I discovered this channel today. This is what we trumpet player missed on youtube, please go ahead, theese videos are incredible😍
Hey so glad you like my stuff Gerardo!!! You can bet I will keep making and releasing videos whenever I can! All trumpet nerds are welcome 🤓🎺
One of my teachers taught me pedal tones by opening the water key on the tuning slide. This help me a lot because my "natural" pedal tone was a G(concert F) on the Bflat trumpet. Long way to lip it up to the C. 😄
My teacher believed that pedal tones help you get the sensation of making your bell vibrate and thus giving you a more tactile connection to the sound production.
Great video Jon, gave me some great ideas for my next practice session.
Thanks!
That's an interesting tip, I've never heard of that or tried it - I'll have to give it a go! Glad you found the video interesting. 😃 Happy practicing!
We bass trombone players LIVE for pedal notes. When I was a trumpet player trying to overcome an embouchure collapse after dental problems, I never really did get the hang of pedal notes on the trumpet despite having studied with a student of Bo Nilson. Of course, I also never really was successful with the transfer of free buzzing to mouthpiece to horn. It always skipped up a fifth on me.
N.B. - I've never done any buzzing sine switching to t-bone in 1991.
In any case, I always find your trumpet nerd stuff interesting, especially stuff that reminded me of the bad old days and are applicable to the bass bone. Keep up the great work!
This is one of the most informative videos I have seen regarding the pedal range on the trumpet.
Back when I was in college I stumbled upon an ability to play what I knew then as C below low F#. I wasn’t majoring in music at the time, so I wasn’t familiar with the harmonic series, and I hadn’t heard the term “ pedal” used for the range. I used that C as part of my warmup…it came out sounding solid and in tune, probably due to using a 1.5C mouthpiece.
I recently started back on the trumpet a few months ago after a 33-year break and am including pedal notes in my range development. So far I can reach double pedal C# without much issue.
I have only seen one case in classical music that uses a pedal note: on the opening trumpet solo of Mahler’s 5th Symphony, the transcript of the solo for Bb trumpet (only seen on video) ends on pedal F. Most modern players omit it, mainly because most use a C trumpet which would have that solo ending on pedal Eb.
I know of two pros who perform pedal notes. One is in a performance of Florentiner March by Mnozil Brass in which lead trumpet player Thomas Gansch ends a solo with pedal Bb. The other is Arturo Sandoval, who is a master of the pedal range.
Thanks for sharing this video.
WOW, thank you so much for saying that! Glad you found it educational. It's funny how people can stumble upon certain skills. I started working on pedal tones in high school and didn't find it to be terribly difficult. This is probably due to the larger mouthpieces and orchestral equipment I was already playing as well as potentially something anatomically with my lips or jaw or something. You're right that everybody leaves out the low Eb, though I would call that a "real note" on the Bb and not a pedal, and a false tone if it was attempted with the 23 fingering on C trumpet. Arturo has other worldly pedals and could probably use it to summon all the animals in a several mile radius.🤣
Jon this is so helpful, thank you.
Glad you found it useful, Kevin!
In almost 40 years of playing I've noticed a few things in regards to pedal notes. Though I'm not against them 100% that fact that so many players don't play them properly is troublesome...as with everything, there's a right way to do them and a wrong way and if you're not going to do pedals properly, then I always suggest to excise them utterly. I've also noticed that those who use them rather religiously, that they have issues with tonging, Instead of a sharp direct "pop" in their attack, they get more of a "pewap" kind of attack. Back when Herbert L Clarke was with Sousa's band, a rather well renowned brass embouchure guru attended a Sousa concert and afterwards went to meet Mr. Clarke during intermission and while conversing with Mr. Clarke, they heard the infamous low fluttery sounds and when asked what that sound was, Mr. Clarke said "Oh, that's Harold Stanbaugh(sp) one of Cornetists and he practices pedal tones during the intermissions, then, gets back on the band stand and has trouble tonguing. So, works for some may or may not work for you.
Jon: This video is egregiously nerdy (to borrow one of your phrases from another one of your illuminating videos). It is wonderful to see how your mind plumbs the depths of a given trumpet topic, and brings to light new perspectives and fundamentals.
What a nerd! I love it, thanks. I will keep working on these
I got it before the video ended and it sounds pretty good.. like an amped up bumblebee
VERY cool! Pedals are a really important part of fundamental practice for me and these are great explanations of how to achieve this technique! On an aside, if we start seeing pedal notes in new compositions more regularly, I credit/blame you and this video. ;) Love these videos, Jon!
Thanks, Sam! Glad you enjoyed it. Gosh I hope they don’t start doing that!! 🤣😵
Like your vids!
One tool that helped/helps me work up the pedal pitch, that only works on B down, is using the half step higher fingering to slot in the pitch then releasing or alternating with the pedal fingering and trying to recapture the sensations. e.g. low B 2 to pedal B open, then work it up on 2nd valve. I actually don't see the benefit of using those alternate fingerings in the pedal register, if the goal is to overcome the lack of resonance and have control over the pitch. You sound like a player who hasn't had to rely on developing pedals to correct some issue that wasn't happening otherwise, whereas I am one who finds them a valuable tool to help my concept and efficiency. Yeah there's players who never played one that can play all over the horn for sure, but some folks just can't figure things out any other way than with tools such as these. BTW you sound like a heck of a player!
great video! one of the most exhaustive about the topic on youtube.
Wow, thanks! Glad you found it helpful, Matteo.
Jon after watching your video I feel so low! Seriously great video! I believe the James Stamp Warm Up helped me more than other books to develop the pedal register. I also have a book I bought 40 years ago called "Double High C in 37 Weeks" by Roger Spaulding! It's an interesting approach that uses lots of pedal tones. After I got out of graduate school I actually used the book for 37 weeks! While it never gave me a double high C, it gave me a blistering A! I don't recommend the book because doing just that for 37 weeks will cause technique and articulation to suffer! Stamps approach did give me better control on the horn overall. I really appreciate your videos!🎺🎵🎶👍
Love your videos Jon!
Thanks, Gavin!
Man, 8:27 to 8:46 was my favorite! I started messing with pedals in high school also. I’m ‘upstream’ player with a slight overbite and used to pivot when I was younger. I found that the pedals really helped me stabilize and get rid of my pivot.
This made my wannna get my horn out and do some barking now. Haha! Thanks for sharing!
Glad you enjoyed it, Lenwood - I had fun making it! 🤓
I can't get over the massive sound you get playing the Ein Heldenleben excerpt on Eb, hahaha. That's nuts.
LOL thanks Kevin! I've spent way too much time messing around with pedals and that lick is my favorite.
I find that the pedals help to relax my embouchure and keep it flexible during my practice sessions, especially after playing in upper register.
Glad to hear that! I sometimes do descending arpeggios into the pedal register as part of a "warm-down" following an extra strenuous service or practice session.
It is fine to play the pedal at the pedal resonance as an excercise. If you are playing it in tune on a trumpet then you are bending the pitch up. That is why it takes more effort. Playing the ( flat) resonance requires the least effort from embouchure and from blowing effort.
Also it is bell size relative to bore that improves the tuning. Trombone is VERY cylindrical but has an easy pedal.
Very interesting - thanks for sharing!
@@JonTalksTrumpet notice also that the resonance can be played very softly and with the least embouchure effort , to play the flat resonance in tune as C requires more embouchure and blowing effort.
The alternative fingerings near the end of your video are demonstrating playing the resonance.
Excellent video.
I can play a pedal C very easily with practice mute, which I use a lot for practising (not good, I know, but my family doesn't like noise). With mute it's only a little flat and I can bend the note up easily. Without mute, though, it's terribly flat. Maybe the fact that my trumpet cost 180 euros doesn't help. I can't seem to get a pedal C
Thanks; best explanation I've heard yet! Back in my youth I could play pedal C no problem, but now trying to get back into trumpet it remains elusive. Super easy with the whisper mute; will playing it with the mute help playing it without?
In my opinion it *can* help - in the sense that practicing it that way gives you a more definite physical sense of the slotting and pitch of a proper pedal c, giving you something to aim for!
@@JonTalksTrumpet Well you aren't gonna believe it, but I played with and without a mute for the last two practice sessions, and just now I got an unmuted pedal C. It was airy as heck, but it was in tune. Thanks again for the video and for the encouragement!
This is amazing - thanks for sharing!
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!
Great video! Just subscribed!
This makes me want to play trumpet asap
It is pretty fun 🤪
The first pedal tone my trumpet slots is an F (concert Eb). I can go down to the C too. It's not a false pedal. No. It's a solid pedal. Much more resonant than C. What's the deal with that?
How do I reach the low tones F to C#, below the regular range, but not in the pedal octave? Is this even possible at all by some trick like the pedal tones? Sometimes I need a low E.
There’s a good low F with the third slide thrown almost all the way to the end plus some first valve and 123. As far as low E, generally you have to do it as a “false” tone like I demonstrate in the early section of this video OR get a four valve instrument (or some kind of extra length rotor slide).
There is one example in the literature. Last note of the first mouvement of the Saint -Saens septet. If played on Eb trumpet which it is written for the last note is a low concert Eb or pedal C on the Eb trumpet. Anyway, you have an amazing pedal register, probably the best I’ve ever heard. Ever double on tuba?
Hey Stephen!!! That's a great example of a longer discussion I'm hoping to have about the timeline of the use of various types of trumpets throughout the history of our literature. The Saint-Saens Septet was written to feature the long valved Eb trumpet, so for that instrument the last note is a low C instead of a pedal C. Of course in the modern day this piece *is* usually performed on the "short" Eb so you are correct (though I think most people probably just take that note up, which is very practical). The same reasoning applies to the low concert Ebs in the Trumpet in Eb parts in Ein Heldenleben. YES - I did play tuba as a middle schooler actually. LOL
@@JonTalksTrumpet That makes sense. Guess that means the high concert Eb flat at the end of the piece would have been written as a double high C then on an alto or low Eb trumpet? Must of been a bit of a feat on the original instrument!! Anyway, I enjoy your videos Jon. But you need to be warned…I’m 66 years old and still a trumpet nerd. You have a life long affliction my friend!
고마워요 많이배웠어요.
The only orchestral part I saw the fundamental written (pedal c on d trumpet) was in Mendelssohn 5, first movement, second part. The part had both pedal C and the C BELOW THAT written by each other, so I'm guessing the composer wasn't sure which was possible. Long story short, neither of those were played.
“That’s a nope from me, maestro”
When I try to play a pedal C, I end up playing an Ab instead. I can't get it above a flat A without jumping back up the interval.
and gould said theres no money in low notes...
lmao
lol unfortunately nobody has ever paid me to play a pedal tone but I hope it happens someday 😂
The only thing I notice missing here is the double pedal register in trumpet methodology. It is debatable whether any of it helps normal register playing, but proponents of each type of pedal typically eschew the other type.
I guess you’re right, in the sense I have never experimented far past the pedals I show in this video. I’ve heard about double pedals and know they are part of a methodology or two - is that like below double pedal c?
@@JonTalksTrumpet This is part of Callet and BE methods, where instead of maintaining the same mouthpiece position, the bottom lip is pulled out of the mouthpiece to get double pedal C and below, so an octave below what you are showing here.
What is the intended benefit of working in that range? The thing that seems most likely or obvious is that it might help get the lip tissue vibrating in a more nuanced way, but I wonder what other benefits are claimed for practicing them?
I think their basic idea is that by doing them it is supposed to encourage a certain lip position with the lips kind of "rolled out". Then again some other advocates of normal pedals also say they do those to get a more pooched out, cushioned, lip position. Or like Thibaud, I think uses both. I don't know one way or another!
So much to learn! Definitely a video topic - “Double Pedals”. Thanks for watching!
Jon this is super! But, I do have a problem with you saying that the trombones pedaltones are difficulty to play. Composer have written pedaltones for trombone for ages. Tenortrombones are sometimes suposed to play pedals, bass tromonosts have to perform pedals a lot. Actually the pedal Ab on basstrombone is one of the best notes in horn. But I do like your show because it does explain pedals for so man trumpetplayers that don´t know enough about them. Thankyou!
Sven - you are totally right! Shortly after posting this video I learned I was off base on that point. Somebody in this comment section explained it well I think - it has something to do with the difference between the bore size of the tubing and the bell size. So trumpet is hard to a play a pedal c on because the bell is not big enough? I think. I will probably use the youtube editor to cut out that part OR make a follow up someday explaining what I've learned.
Oy vey, the peaking on the talk mic!
I know... 😵😵😵 working on it...
i hate my wife