@@robbylava I’d also probably download a reskin mod, even tough I’m nostalgic about the atlantean designs. Mostly because the meso american gladiators truly look out of place and I love PIE stuff. Oranos being “sky father” and gaia being “mother earth” would be so easy it’s genius
This is definitely true, but I don't think it's something we should still aspire to. If you played Age of mythology as a kid, was what drew you to it the fact that it was based on a bunch of cheesy pop culture references? At least for me, and many others I have spoken to, we were drawn to it because we loved mythology and wanted to see it represented in games! And so because of that, I think it is a good and proper goal to attempt to add proper mythological grounding to the game. If not, what is stopping a Lovecraftian faction from being a valid addition? A mod implemented it, after all.
@@robbylava I do definitely see your angle, I’m not so much arguing against is as just pointing out something that heavily influenced the reason it came out the way it did. Personally I bought AOM because my older brother had Age of Empires 1 and I wanted a similar game (lol). And the Eldritch mod is actually really good (albeit very OP)
@grymdylan oh for sure! I tried to emphasize in my video that I do think I understand why they did it, I just very substantially disagree with the reasoning. Younger siblings definitely have it different heheheh. I was the oldest, so I never really would have thought of that, great point. I wonder how many people with some amount of control over the purchase, either being the ones paying for it or directly requesting it, did so mostly for the love of mythology? That would be really interesting to look into, but probably impossible at this point.
Great idea, especially relegating the Chryseon into a Titanic subfaction. Also opens up the doors for other similar subfactions - Jotnar-aligned Norse (heck, maybe even Vanir-aligned Norse as well), or a faction representing one of the four (!) previous races of humans in Aztec mythology. It would also be a heck of a better way to introduce the Romans.
I really wish someone makes a mod or the devs make a DLC depicting the Greeks as Mycenaeans and the Norse as more bronze age, so both fit better with the other bronze age factions. Edit: I would also like if the atlanteans besides the Indo-European theming also had bit Minoan inspired stuff in their navy to imply there could be a connection between both Thalassocracies
I don't personally hate the time jumping as much in age of mythology as I do in Age of Empires, as it allows the civilizations to have more varied militaries. Plus, the myth units often are drawn from at least a couple hundred if not over a thousand years apart from each other. But I do think that for some factions where we have a ton of information, like the Greeks, going for more historically cohesion could definitely be an improvement.
@@thegeneralissimo6172 I DID NOT. The fact that this was actually a part of a mod is upsetting to me in a way that I don't think many people would find reasonable
The Atlanteans are simply and extension of the greeks... you have Kronos, Gaia, Oranos, Prometheus, ... these are all from greek mythology. So why are we calling them Atlantean?
Yep, the Greeks in the majority of cases wouldn't be caught dead worshiping a Titan. Hence why, if we absolutely MUST have the Titans in the game (which I don't personally think we do), it makes infinitely more sense for them to be worshiped by a people, real or fictional, who were actually known to have worshiped them
Well, you've convinced me that your fixes would have been a better way to portray the exact same culture/mechanics/pantheon without calling them Atlantians. As I was watching this, though, I couldn't help but compare the Chryseon to the ancients as depicted in Final Fantasy 14's Endwalker. Anyway, I really liked learning about the Koryon from you. It's gotten my own creative juices flowing.
Hehehe thank you so much my friend! I really appreciate you giving my ideas here a chance. Proto Indo European culture is extremely cool, so I'm glad if nothing else you had a chance to learn more about it. There are definitely many parallels to them in fantasy world building, so I'm totally unsurprised that a game as vast as FF14 has something similar
Brilliantly thought through Sir bravo… but this CHRŸSEON GÉNOS or golden race… if someone, like myself wished to use the name for a story or alternative media, would that be OK to do, copyright, and all that kind of thing you know?
Thank you very much for saying so! I can absolutely assure you that it is not copyrighted whatsoever, and if some moron out there has tried to copyright it then it would not hold up in court. Use it however you want!
You're telling me the devs don't deserve to have creative liberty? Why do you want to remove something perfect that has already been in the game for years. Why not continue this path and make civs similar to this, such as for example the hyperborea with all its mammoths and megafauna?
Great vid! I appreciate the amount of research that must go into making these vids. You and I differ on the "pop mythology" thing. While it'd be cool if Age of Mythology was more true to history/mythology, I just don't think it would fit the game - too many things would have to be changed. That being said, I've also had issues with the Atlanteans' inclusion. I think a middle-happy ground for me is what you mentioned at the end of the vid - take aesthetic inspiration from Minoan/Archaic Greece rather than the Romans.
Thanks very much for saying so man! I really appreciate it. Though that solution doesn't go at all far enough for me personally, I think it's a very smart middle ground. Great to see you in the comments again!
I remember suggesting on the AOM reddit once that Atlantean architecture should be based of Minoans. It would be a nice way to include them in the setting and they would fit pretty well with the theme of Atlantis as you said. It would also def be better than the Mayan stuff they have now, especially if we want to see Mayans added in the future. They might as well have roman units though, i don't want Rome either but making up something for the Minoan military would be difficult since we only have one depiction of their military and it's just some people with spears and this way we still partially get elements of Rome. Titan worship also makes sense since we don't know much about Minoan religion either except for one possible goddess statue and since titans are supposed to be precursor gods it makes sense for them since Minoans were sort of a precursor to Greece.
Minoans would be a tremendous improvement, though I would personally still strongly oppose the Roman stuff. I don't love the Titan analogy as a direct one to one for them, but it would certainly be a damn sight better and a lot more plausible than what we have now
Very fun idea and inspired idea that fixes the biggest problems with the Atleantiean's visual/thematic style. I would like to see a mock-up of a few important buildings and units in this new Proto-Indo-European style, just as a Visualisation aid, as well as any mechanical changes (other than their old Favor generation).
Visual mockups are a great idea. Would be a little challenging to do, I'd have to really stretch my googling abilities to source the images, but I definitely want to at least try that. Thanks a lot for suggesting it.
Very interesting take on how to retcon the Atlanteans! Would love to see a full build for the Chryseon, although that name is still a mouthful and weird af 😅, but I'd buy it anyways. Now, I can't help but wonder what would you do with tha campaigns if such retcon was to ever happen, particularly the New Atlantis campaign...
Thanks my friend! Definitely want to bring you guys a full build at some point, though I think I'm going to try some other pantheons first. You aren't the first person to ask me about the campaign, and I'm honestly not sure how I approach it! I always try to ground what I talk about on the channel, but since the campaigns are complete fiction I don't really know if I would feel comfortable tackling them! Might seem like a weird distinction, but it doesn't feel like my place, somehow? I don't really know how to put it into words. Regardless, since you and a few others have mentioned it, I will definitely consider it. Thank you very much for talking the time to share your thoughts.
As a original Age of Mythology fan I think the Whole Titan thing is just not needed, Atlantheans should also be cut. I was mad as a child that instead of Titans they didnt let you summon the Real gods, for me that would have been more intresting. But I havent played the titan campain maybe its good and give you some explanations. For me Its should be about mythology with historical factions. + Myths. So I am with you.
As mentioned in the video, I do not believe you can consider Atlantis a myth, and even if you very charitably construe it as such, the fact that it was added to the game before at least two dozen other cultures who deserved it more and would have added far more variety to the game while coming from a more valid mythological canon is an absolute travesty. If I may ask, not trying to gotcha I promise, how would you personally define a myth?
@@robbylava a myth is any historical information that cannot be proven. Like the existence of cyclops or the nemean lion. So it isn't "arguably", it is just that, a myth. In fact, Atlantis is one of the greatest and most well known myths in human history.
If you want to use the word myth in a colloquial sense (aka "MythBusters") then sure, I suppose you can call Atlantis a myth. But this is not a game about myths in the colloquial sense, it is a game about mythology. Would you define mythology as any historical fact that cannot be proven? Because, if so, I consider that to be a flat out wrong and utterly reductive definition.
They should be overhauled to be more MINOAN and MYCENEAN. Not ROMAN. I'm in the faction that thinks Rome would make for a great addition and their pantheon and myths are sufficiently different from the classical Greeks to make it fun and distinct, but for the ATLANTEANS, any kind of Mesoamerican or Roman aesthetics feel way out of place. As the Mycenaean and especially MINOANS are essentially not depicted in game art at all and even in pop culture, styling the Atlanteans after them would make a lot of sense and for a really cool aesthetic.
I feel like the Atlanteans were added only to be unexpected and get players attention. I mean, the game is all about fantasy and myths, having a civ like that would make people think "What? I need to see how this civ works".
It's possible, though at the same time I have a pretty hard time believing that the Atlanteans in particular would sell more copies than other civilizations on coolness factor alone. I also think that the game being based on both fantasy and myth, as you mentioned, is a problem. This isn't to say that you're wrong, quite the contrary! I think your analysis is spot on. But I think that this bastardization of mythology using modern fantasy pop culture tropes is a major issue and many others have with the game. It isn't called Age Of Mythology AND Fantasy, after all, and I think that it is a disservice to the source material to misrepresent it so substantially with a bunch of pop culture nonsense when sticking to the actual myths more faithfully would have produced a game that could have been just as mechanically sound and way more vibrant and interesting.
I do think the fact that the Atlanteans was the civ in this expansion must have helped to sell more copies. I can't speak for everyone else, but it definitely caught my attention. Like I said, this civ goes full myth, i was like "what are they gonna do with it?". It was fun and unexpected. Calling them Chryseon Genos instead of Atlanteans would be a problem for the marketing team, how do you sell that? Hahaha As for the disrespect for the source material... The source material is pure nonsense. I get that you like more grounded stuff but I wouldnt say it's bastardization of mythology. If a videogame can't play with a civ that didn't even exist (and didn't offend anyone since, unlike the Greeks, the Atlanteans never existed) to give us something fun... Well, that's just bad for videogames.
Oh I'm not saying that games CAN'T do it, not at all, but let me pitch you this: what if we got Battle For Middle Earth 3, a proper RTS game set in the Tolkien universe, and some asshat suggested that as the first DLC we add a faction from Game Of Thrones. Would you personally have a problem with that? If you don't care about any of those IPs, could you at least see why some people who DO care about them might have a problem with that, and why them feeling that way would be justified? Age Of Mythology does not pitch itself as a "pop fantasy game". It is grounded in a body of work, just like Lord Of The Rings -- such works being fictional does NOT somehow validate them being disrespected, misrepresented, or outright butchered! If we RTS nerds who love world mythology already had a game that did the topic proper justice, I personally would see no reason to ever get salty over other games trying something new. My frustration comes from me seeing a niche -- a brilliant opportunity for AOM to do something that no other game really does and I think a lot of players would really, really appreciate -- and it blatantly squandering that opportunity for minimal observable benefit beyond a couple of hokey pop culture references. Do you see where I'm coming from?
No, because romans had a lot of unical elements in their mythology. Unical gods (Ianvs, Qvirin), unical rituals and myths (example, mythology of Rome city).
Example, Mars in roman mythology isn't just Ares - he is god of war and DEFENCE, defence of lands and farms' fields, because Mars may to kill demons, that destroys harvest.
@@Miklosh.ProstoiMythology and religion are not exactly the same. And with regard to mythology, it is true that the Romans practically limited themselves to adopting Greek myths, barely creating their own myths.
I would say a reskin is not the correct framing of it. It is definitely true that they adopted many Greek deities and put their own spin on it, much the same way that the Greeks themselves did with Egyptian deities and stories. However, I would very strongly hold that the Romans did establish plenty of their own mythology, not to mention having a number of gods that I really don't think you could argue as being anyone's but their own, not to mention placing very different levels of emphasis on certain gods that they shared with the Greeks. That definitely isn't to say I would highly prioritize them for age of mythology! Maybe if the game had 20 factions they could be the 21st or something. But they definitely aren't a reskin, and as such I do think are meritorious of being included someday even if it is not a high priority.
Roman religion and mythology spanned 1000 years. You can include the cults, such as Mithra and Hercules, as well as Celtic cults adopted by the soldiers (Epona). And the Roman pantheon is not a 1:1 copy of the Greeks. They were "adjacent" to the Greeks and had many similar aspects, but they were still unique.
People commenting really don't understand that Titan worship was basically Heresy for the Greeks, as in, the equivalent of Christians abhorring the worship of Satan. The fact they're so non-chalant about the concept in the Titan's Campaign really demonstrates that the writers only had a surface level understanding of ancient Greek Religious studies ... I find it so hilarious that Kastor is forgiven by the Greek Gods for attacking literally all the pantheons because he was "tricked", which shouldnt have been a problem in the first place because not - worshipping Titans was an engrained societal norm for Greek peoples. This is even more hilarious when you realize that Arkantos is a literal DEIFIED GOD , and could have told Kastor to stop at any moment... But only did so when the plot necessitated it.
I'm not sure I'd go quite this far, it's definitely not a one-to-one comparison, but it's definitely a hell of a lot closer to the truth than the nonsense portrayed in game. If nothing else, you're completely right that the blinding plot hole of Kastor only being brought back on course by Arkantos when that could have happened at the very beginning of the story is laughable to say the least. I didn't even remember that part!
Things like bipedal Cerberus, Harryhausen Medusa, and lava monster Kronos make me butthurt too. lol I guess back then I was just happy to see Greek Mythology portrayed without Hades being the villain. I don't know why they ignored Typhon.
Oh Lord don't even get me started on the in game Titans! You are definitely right there that it was refreshing to see Haiti's not portrayed as a villain. I remember that was something I really liked when I was younger, as a dyed in the wool mythology nerd
As a lover of Greek mythology i argue there is no such thing as oversaturation regarding Greeks. The Atlanteans are a contrived way of including more Greek myth stuff. Im especcially curious how you would replace them. Mesapotamian gods would seem cool to me...might overlap with egyptians though
Personally I adore Greek mythology too. If the game were nothing but Greek mythology I would still probably have played it and loved it almost as much. If you're interested in seeing my take on Mesopotamia, check out the video I recently put out!
Oh, Atlantis is a Myth. Just mainly a modern one (loosely based on Plato) The bad part of is more modern mythic background is that it generally there to promote this idea of a lost master race. But I will say, just because the myth is relatively modern does not make it less of a myth. And so can have value. That said, I think Atlantis works more as a vessel to explore more of Greek myth going into the Titans. They are called Atlanteans. And mix some of the modern myths of Atlantis in it. But in core it feels a lot like this being a Greek extension. And what I liked the most was that deep dive in to the Titans. Part of the modern myth is actually drawing from the idea of different cultures being inspired by this ancient civilization. The idea of Romans and Mesoamericans drew inspiration from Atlantis. This of course have it host of own issues. (But at least in this case, Rome gets the same treatment as many non-western cultures tend to get when it comes to Atlantis.) It is actually fitting with the modern myth of Atlantis. The idea of this large empire that used to rule and have colonies both Africa, Europe, and America as this large lost island continent in the Atlantic. And was at the time absolutely not their own invention. I think it is important to actually understand the context in which this is made. I do think that it is less likely this would have been done today since we have a more critical view of the sources we draw from. Back when Age of Empires and Mythology was made, sadly the research was a bit light. But even more so, there was less focus on the critical thinking about how something is depicted. At least I think the biggest sin is just that it draw a lot of inspiration from a relatively modern myth about Atlantis that has some dark undertones and undermines other cultures. I do think it did a pretty good job in general if one discount this. I would have less issue with the cultural mixing if it was reversed. That is, that Atlanteans took inspiration from the surrounding cultures rather than being the inspiration. Though this would also break with the modern myth. But then again the modern myth is what you maybe should not draw on. It has this feel of drawing from what seem cool without going one step deeper. Still a bit better than what game developers used to do in the 80s and 90s when they just took the most shallow parts and did the most cursory research. This at least have had some research and I think it shows. Even if it far from perfect. Should they have added other cultures myths instead? Yes. But what is done is done. Complaining about how Slavic Mythology or Japanese Mythology will not change things. And I find this complaint a bit shallow. Especially since there are no set slots of cultures that can be added. In theory, you could add a thousand different cultures. Heck, I would not mind seeing Lovecraftian Mythos inspired addition even if I like other myths first. (And yes I know how problematic a lot of Lovecrafts work is too. And Cosmic horror is a bit wider, the Lovecraft on top of that.) What is more annoying to me is that did not add more really. But also was another time where you did not do a lot of expansions in that way. But today, as long as they make good extra content and people keep buying them, we could actually add all those interesting cultures. Now I will say your proposed fixes I think are not bad at all... just a bit too late and will likely just annoy people more than it would satisfy people. Renaming some stuff would likely work. They have been willing to do so. And most would not get too upset about it. Even if I have seen people be just that for the most stupid reasons (Though I do think it is more their problem then our problem). Any major change to graphics would absolutely annoy most people, I think. And for those that say they're changing the graphics anyway with retold... Well, retold is trying to stay true to the source. Almost all graphics are very true to the original. And the few time they do make their own take on things, most people criticize them for it. Gaia's new look is something that comes to mind. I do not mind it too much but saw it an s a rather unneeded redesign since classical depictions of Gaia often have her be rather human. But I have seen plenty of people dislike it. (Oh, and one more thing... Norse helmets with horns? Really? Actual example of a relatively modern idea. About as old as most Atlantean myths we have to deal today. Personally, I would actually love if they ditched the horned helmets but hay. I bet I am a minority. But just shows that this sort of using modern ideas or myths as inspiration actually exist in other part of the game. A bit of a tangent, but hay. )
Solid points, and I agree with the overarching sentiment. There is no doubt that my proposed changes would be taken poorly, but the point of my channel is not necessarily to directly change or influence the games that I'm talking about, more to show how they could be better and more faithful to their source material. I actually completely agree with the sentiment that modern myths are fair game, though I feel like maybe they would be better suited for a sequel to Age of Mythology more focused in the early modern age (though to be honest I wouldn't hate them being included in the base game as well, I just feel like a lot of people would really detest that). However, while I do feel like early modern myths are fair game, I also feel like the representation of Atlantis we have is a cobbled-together mess that doesn't even really fit well with the supposed source material it is based on. More than that, the fact that it was added before about two dozen other more deserving cultures is an absolute travesty in my eyes. But like you said, we can't change the past! Even though I am happy to discuss what could have been. I am right there with you on the horned helmets thing, by the way. There are a lot of other annoying and easily fixable inaccuracies in this wonderful game that I love so dearly, and I fully intend on discussing them all at length in future videos!
Gallic Big 3 IMO: Cernunnos (vegetation and the wild), Taranis (T&L, rain), Sucellos (wine, fortune) Sadly much lacking in myth units / cryptids (of their own) for the Gallic Celtic minor gods to be attached to in the game mainly because Druids of Gallia to Galatia of Asia Minor had this strict policy of no-writing-down their knowledge by their fellow tribesmen, having taken them to the grave, outside of secondhand codices by ancient Romans and the Larzac Tablet. Irish Big 3: The Dagda (protection, magic and knowledge), The Mórrigan (war and prophecy), Lúgh (the sun, fire and nobility) Interestingly, Irish Celtic minor gods can have myth units (that are many to choose from) attached to them, say selecting Nuada Airgetlám (war and hunting) authorizes the recruitment of Werewolves of Ossory and selecting The Cailleach (time, diseases and winter) for the Bean-sidhe / Banshees.
Wonderful to hear you say it! I'm sure I will tackle them at some point, though I will probably try out the Gaels first (even if I think they are less likely than a unified Celtic Pantheon).
@@robbylava Definitely ! I'll be keeping my eyes peeled for the Gaels (to be fair, there's far more material to work from on them than the Gauls I believe) Thank you for the interaction :D !
Personally, i don't care much for the addition of more cultures such as japanese and aztecs. I would much more prefer, if they expanded some of the great civilisations we already have. There are so many gods still left to be added and so many heroes in the greek mythos, that one could easily have 4-5 main pantheons in each civilisation. Or if one wants to keep it to three main gods for each civ, then one could add three options instead of two. But that's just my take, nice video
Thanks for saying so my friend! I completely agree with you that there is still a TON of material in the current pantheons to be explored. However, I personally love the idea of adding more cultures in the game while simultaneously fleshing out the ones that we have now.
I would be interested in seeing new pantheons and maybe doing a Chinese one. Kind of how u did a Romans build before they got released. So do a Chinese pantheon before they r released. But definitely want to see new pantheons added.
1500 AD Myth seems reasonable enough for me to include in the game, considering it's time frame is... a frame i guess but nothing historic in any way. Those norse, greek and egyptian snapshots are so weirdly put together, you could argue including myths from 1500 so on doesnt kill the games lore
The Atlantis myth was mostly developed in 19th and early 20th century theosophy from earlier references. It's a modern myth. In some ways, outgrowths like ancient alien stuff has its place in AOM.
So I actually completely agree that early modern myths are completely fair game! Once again, I just feel like Atlantis being included over at least two dozen other far more deserving cultures was a travesty. Additionally, I don't feel like our current incarnation even comes close to the early modern source material it seems to be based on. It feels extremely forced. I also think that the other pop culture references included in the game actually work to its detriment, and I will be going into far more detail about them in future videos!
When I made this video I didn't know about those changes. A couple people have informed me since then, and I actually think the new Oracle mechanic in particular is really awesome. Just from a flavor perspective it's a million times better, and I do think it could fit very neatly into this proposal I have.
Been a fan of this game for such a long time. Can't wait to see the remake and hopefully the new civs they will add. I've also always felt the Atlanteans made no sense and love your take here. Would love to see any theory crafts you have on new AOM civs!
Really appreciate you saying so my friend! I definitely plan on doing more, even though AOE2 is almost certainly going to remain the focus for the channel.
I dont think it should really be changed because while it doesnt fit neatly into a whole mythology the Atlanteans are a very big part of the Campaign, so they're less their own Mythology & more the devs own creation. Also at this point its way too late to change the Atlanteans so its better to just add new Mythologies (we're already getting 1 after the Chinese). The only thing i would change is giving certain Atlantean gods like Helios & Leto to the Greeks. Also Im not a fan of how they made Gaia an elemental, i feel like they should make all the Atlantean gods elementals or all of them humam looking not a mix of both.
Most unfortunately I do agree with you that it is probably too late to change them. But I'm still happy to discuss doing so from a perspective of what I think should have been rather than what I think is practical to do. And like you say there are smaller changes that could pretty easily be done that would fix some of the issues with the civilization, even if it's base premise is fundamentally nonsense
@@robbylava since the Romans are a popular request they could do something similar to AOE4's Variant civilizations where they keep the base mechanics of the civ the same but add new visuals & slightly tweak bonuses. I guess they could do a Mycenean variant for Atlantis, they could also do an Orphic variant for the Atlantians that Replaces Ouranos with Zeus, Gaia with Persephone & Chronos with Dionysus, could be interesting.
Variant civilizations could be interesting. I would prefer new cultures where possible, but variants could be a great way to keep the content coming without burdening the development team too much
I'd say the Chrysteon concept and the Greek subfaction concept have separate advantages. For preserving the Atlantean _faction_ as we know it while still giving it more of a coherent and fitting identity, the Chrysteon proto-Indo-European approach is a brilliant take. Where the Greek subfaction concept shines is that it would allow The New Atlantis to be changed for coherence with Fall of the Trident with minimal story rewriting, and would set a precedent for subfactions for other factions.
Thank you so much for saying so my friend! This is pretty much exactly my thoughts on the matter as well. I would honestly be okay with either approach, though I'm of course quite fond of how I implemented this Chryseon idea
It does in retrospect strike me that unlikely as it is _both_ could be an option. The Chrysteon keeps the Atlantean faction going with its new more coherent identity, but has a new pantheon (maybe leaning towards reconstructed proto-Indo-European mythology? Unfamiliar names, but with some echoing familiarity and recognisable archetypes), while a "Titanophile" or somesuch Greek subfaction takes over a mechanically adjusted Atlantean pantheon and being the associated faction of the New Atlanteans in The New Atlantis.
@LordInsane100 I actually think this is a great take. Proto-indo-European stuff is so cool that I did feel kind of sheepish "wasting" it on this faction. Instead, what I would probably do is keep the name Chryseon for this Titan faction but shift its human aesthetics, maybe to early Mycenaean or something like that if I could find the research details on it. I only went with the PIE stuff this time because I thought of a bunch of really perfect parallels with existing Atlantean units, but if I were able to design it from scratch then I would make very different decisions!
It's incredible how easily and so much better this would be :O I'm actually surprised nobody thought of this before. The only disadvantage I see is that it would be a way harder sell than atlanteans because people wouldn't recognize any of this.
Hey! Really glad you think so! I was quite proud of it myself hehehehe I do think it's a slightly harder sell, but It does still have the more common touchstone of the Titans, and they wouldn't have to bring the PIE stuff to the front, just have it subtly flavoring things behind the scenes.
Great video, I enjoyed watching this as well as your proposed cultures in your last aom retold video. I understand you approached this with a focus on the accuracy and creativity aspect, while reiterating that you had appreciated what the devs had done before. But I wanted to address your question on why it was the Atlanteans who were more so created rather than some actual mythological culture. Seeing the Chinese expansion should explain it. Sure, that had been done with poor accuracy and poor balance, but even if it had been done accurately it would not have been as well recieved as Atlanteans. Atlanteans on release were very strong, just like the Chinese, but what made Atlanteans a better choice was the gameplay aspects. There were so many more Greek mythological creatures that werent included such as satyrs, Argus, Heka Giganties, automoton, and so on that really deserved to be in there. Not to mention it worked narratively and seemed like the obvious choice. The titan gods really fit in well into the game and it had just worked out for the Atlanteans to worship them. They had been betrayed by their Greek god so why stay loyal? Not to mention they'd been completely abandoned since they have been struggling for a decade by themselves, nearly eradicated. They were desperate, and the weakened gates from the Fall of the Tridant campaign allowed for the titans to have a little more power. So Kronos and Oranos (or Ouranos) using them to basically get back at the Olympians makes sense. And the main campaign left on a cliffhanger, with Atlantis sinking with a bunch of displaced Atlanteans. So having it come full circle to conclude their story was fitting. Not to mention how including a new civilization had to be related to the original 3 somehow. Sure, they couldve done something else, but it wouldve felt more forced. The New Atlantis campaign fit in perfectly with the original, making sense narratively, in their story, despite it maybe not making sense mythologically. I was actually a bit miffed that Oranos and Gaia were included since those are technically primordials and not titans (which I was surprised how you didnt bring that up) but even then, it felt like it made sense and had that flavor that was consistant with the rest of the pantheons. None were really accurate, and even the original campaign took many liberaties. Like a fully fictional Arkantos being at the Trojan war. Or going from Greece or Egypt to Scandinavia. Not to mention all the other mythological inaccuracies that are too long to list. Personally, I really wished the Atlantean titan was the hecatoncheries (spealt that wrong for sure lol) which im sure you have many personal wishes for this game as well, but honestly, the Atlanteans was the only choice. Anything else and it wouldve felt too seperate from the rest of the game. The only other option was to do nothing. So thats why they went with Atlanteans rather than Aztecs, Gaels, Sumerians, Japanese, Persians, etc.
Thanks so much for the kind words my friend! I completely understand what you are saying, but I do have to respectfully disagree with them being the only choice. Yes, while the Age of Mythology campaign is completely fictionalized, this also means that the creators have full narrative control over what happens in it and where the story goes. There is nothing stopping them from making just as good of a plot using a civilization besides the Atlanteans! Now I do think there is one potential scenario where you would be completely right: IF they locked in the plot for the Titans expansion BEFORE working on the actual mechanical side and civilization implementations, then I think you are right that they would have kind of forced themselves to go with Atlantis. Admittedly, I can't really see a way where this sort of thing would happen, but I don't know enough about the industry at the time to discount it. Maybe it was a studio issue? Maybe the writers spelled out the story from the very beginning and only could tell half of it in the first game? I'm not sure. Either way, I think you make some pretty interesting points, but it doesn't change my overall personal beliefs that the civilization was a very poor decision. I really appreciate you giving such a thorough response though, and if nothing else you have given me at least one scenario where the decision could have been rational, for which I commend you!
@robbylava one thing I forgot to mention is Kastor, Arkantos's son. He wasnt a main figure in the original campaign but he definitely was still important. So in a way they were stuck to including him, which probably gave way to the Atlantean civilization. Additionally, any other civilization would feel forced. Look at the Chinese campaign. It was very poorly recieved. Granted it was for reasons past it's isolation from the rest of the pantheons, but it being seperate was still the biggest issue. Arkantos was a god now and we had all these established, prominent characters like Amanra and Ajax. Not to mention how they included Folstag which was awesome. So cool to see that connection. I honestly wish they had included another civilization like you suggested in your concepts video. Sumerians sound awesome with the deposit at Ziggarauts for favor and such, or Aztec sacrificing. But even if these had been included, I believe Atlanteans were inevitable and necessary. It worked narratively and gameplay wise. It worked way too well to have ignored or substituted. Especially with the titan gods. It's obvious that Greek mythology is the most widely known and most well documented for its time. So not having a way to include titan gods would've been dissapointing. Don't forget the inclusion of the titan units for each pantheon. It wouldn't have made sense to include that with some other pantheon. Sure, it's inaccurate, as most of the titans weren't actually huge, since it's often a misconception between the titans and the giganties. However, the titan units in skirmish and such fit in the campaign well. You got to remember that the campaign has to serve as a tutorial/introduction to whatever new things there are. So you get to fight Cerberus and Ymir which are in skirmish, then Prometheus and Kronos who still have the same rough stats. Not to mention controlling a titan of your own, Gaia. So honestly I do think they were locked in and any other pantheon wouldn't have made sense in the gameplay or narrative. Also since I have your attention I did want to mention that the proposed favor generation for the Japanese was so complicated 😅. It's accurate and fitting but very convoluted. Going from fighting for favor or praying at a temple to building a building far from others and upgrading it and having a spirit enter it is a bit convoluted. But other than that I do really like the Japanese concept, I'd love to see a Shinobi with a stealth element or a Ronin. But Sumerians were my favorite by far, having the town center as the only drop off and Ziggarauts.
@tubagaming1376 yeah the Japanese favor idea was just something I loosely cobbled together, if I do a more substantive build for them I will try to come up with something more grounded. I do get where you're coming from and I think you are making more compelling arguments than just about anyone else in this comment section, but I still completely do not believe that the Atlanteans were necessary or inevitable. The Chinese campaign was poorly received not just because it didn't feature the other civilizations well, but more because the scenarios were boring and poorly designed, the story was crap, and the civilization itself was bad. I think most people would put the fact that the other AOM civilizations didn't feature enough well down the list of gripes. But let's assume that some of what you said was absolutely mandatory to be included in a Titans campaign: Kastor as the protagonist, bunch of returning characters so they have to stay in the same general region, Titans are a core plot element, etc. EVEN THEN introducing a completely new civilization would not be hard at all! Imagine: Kastor leads the Atlanteans, represented by Greeks like they were in the original game, to a new land that they try to settle only to find a completely new civilization already there (Sumeria could work perfectly for this, but a whole bunch of other potential additions could work just as well)! At first they fight, but then the coming of the Titans forces them all to put aside their differences and work together to stop this new threat. See what I mean? Not hard at all! And this was just a very quick idea I put together in a TH-cam comment, if you actually had a couple writers work shopping this for a month or so I think they can come up with a story that was just as compelling and connected to the original AOM campaign as the Titans one ended up being. I should also note that there are quite a few commenters who have expressed to me that they really didn't like the Titans campaign, which came as a surprise seeing as I quite liked it. This tells me that there are a lot of improvements that could have been made to it, and it should not be held up by itself as universal justification for changes made to the game to accommodate it. Pardon the wall of text. I hope you get what I'm going for here. Again though, I do appreciate the points you're making and think they are more compelling than most of the others I have read.
@@robbylava The main reason it's considered a myth is that there is no proof of its existence, like Troy if we ever find proof of its existence then it won't be a myth but until we do it's a myth. Also the story that it was sunk as punishment by the gods is definitely a myth.
I gotta say, Robby, this has been my favorite video from your channel. I don't like the theme of the Atlanteans at all. I really would like to see the rework you are proposing in this video
Wow! Thank you so much for saying so my friend! I'm thrilled to hear you liked it. My experience with the AOM modding scene is pretty much zero, so unfortunately it will probably be a very long time, if ever, that I could actually implement these changes. But who knows? Maybe someday we can make it happen!
@@robbylava yeah, modding can be quite difficult. But still, I would love to see you expand this ideas in another video. Keep up the good work! Your channel is a hidden gem!
I say its odd but Atlantis overall is as much of a fictional setting in well, Mediterranean myth (IE made by one guy), though it for some folks nowadays, thinking its a real place and ancient writers are incapable of fiction... And saying its a real place with some racial undertones, though hopefully if other civs are coming to AOM retold, hopefully the devs go all out. Get the Celtics with their limited option of armor and watch them make the whole forest walk. Oh shit the trees are fighting back.
I don't know a ton about it, but from what I can see it seems like a colossal missed opportunity. I feel like they should have gone in a more Age of Mythology direction, funnily enough, with explicitly mythological monstrous and heroes rather than weird human pseudo-representations of them.
I haven't had much chance to play the new Atlantians, but I think the favor generation change is a good idea, it keeps the "map control" idea of the original but makes it much more dynamic. Basically every game you would have up to 3 tcs unless someone managed to steal an extra, in which case it just made that already big advantage even bigger, while still being almost completely passive from a player perspective. At least with the Oracles hunting them down to suppress Atlantian myth units is a viable thing to do, and replacing them, while not expensive, is part of the macro that a good Atlantian player needs to manage. Gameplay wise it seems like a great change.
Wait, they changed the flavor mechanic? Thank GOD. Mechanically speaking that was always my least favorite part of the faction. I haven't been keeping up with the beta stuff and don't know any of the changes they have made, could you give me a summary of what the new favor generation for the Atlanteans looks like?
@@robbylava Oracles generate favor. It's based on their LoS mechanic, as the LoS grows they get more favor generation. If other units are overlapping the LoS the rate goes down, this includes other Oracles. You also now have a cap on total Oracles.
I actually don't mind mythologies including modern ones. I guess being an atheist makes all legendary tales appear on samey level, to a degree. So the Atlanteans being a crossroad between Mesoamerica, Greece and Rome isn't as out there for me. Hell, we have a clash of histories with different time periods overlapping. The real monstrosity would be a Mu or Lemurian faction, lmao.
It's a respectable take, but by that logic would you be okay with a Lovecraft faction being added? How about an Ancient Aliens faction? If either of those feel wrong or out of place to you, I would really love to hear your thoughts on why that is the case for them and not for the Atlanteans.
@@robbylava Well I don't know about aliens per se, but ancient astronauts sounds like something on the level of what is done with Atlanteans. Mu and Lemuria kinda seem like a place you can stash such stuff into, if anything of the sort is added. Although, wouldn't some mythical entities connected with the Moon or such technically count as aliens? As for Lovecraft, lmao. I have a friend who's into his works and likes AoM so I really wanna hear his thoughts on the idea. Tbh, I do think that the game does lean more towards implementing actual mythologies into its design and that overall the Age of series works within historical parameters. Atlanteans feel both strange and somehow fitting with how general view on it has evolved through different media. I guess I'm just not that overtly bothered by it due to the relatively light-hearted nature of the setting, what with pitting Medieval Vikings against Bronze Age Egyptians on equal footing while deities bring about world-ending events with their normal abilities. I don't know about which side I'd lean into more, personally.
If there is something I don't like about The Titans expansion, it is its campain. It seems like a plot nonsense to me, especially because of the existence of New Atlantis. Firstly because this invalidates the ending of the original game, and secondly because it leaves you wondering what the hell happens to it in the future. Did it end up sunk like the original Atlantis? It's not known. In my opinion it would have been better if the Atlanteans had stayed in Europe, perhaps in Italy or Iberia.
Unfortunate for sure, but that's never stopped me before! Even if I know that 99% of what I propose when I talk about AOM or AOE2 is never going to happen, I still think it's fun and important to talk about.
I don't know about next per se, but I will definitely be going into detail about all the other pantheons! Might try to approach them piece by piece, doing gods first, then myth units, etc. What do you personally think would be the best way to approach future redesign ideas like this?
Damn, this was amazing. Loved everything! Awesome job mate. Have thought about this ever since I started playing the game so many years ago. Very well laid out, and pretty interesting faction proposal.
It really should be! But as is, the game really is trying to represent itself as portraying mythology rather than fantasy. And as such I think we can hold it to substantially higher standards of accuracy and authenticity (at least in purely theoretical theorycrafting contexts like this one).
The Tihuanacu/Inca architecture, specifically the mortarless masonry method, that required a lot of manpower to apply force (lift, push, pull) to those chiseled and sanded stones and fit them to specific spots with the tech they had
Atlanteans were such a lazy pick even back in the day. I mean, Atlantean Pantheon is part of Hellenic polytheism. But I like their playstyle, especially Kronos rush Your reworks are excellent.
I never played any expansion, only the original game back in the day. I never understood how the Atlanteans came to the game. I agree 100% with your statement. I would like to know your suggestions for incoming pantheons now that the Chinese and Japanese are coming.
The story campaign's main character hails from the Mindanao-looking Atlantis and is named Arkantos, admiral of the Atlantean Armada. Atlantis (before The Titans campaign) was but a very distant Greek city-state west of Iberia. Atlantis after Gargarensis's defeat was partially sunk, and the survivors of the war a decade ago (one of the them the now adult Kastor) thought that the Olympian deities had betrayed them, while the Norse raiders were sacking the place. Theocrat Krios (unknown to everyone that he was possessed by a demonic minion of Kronos) led them to a Sky Passage that sent them to the land where derelict Temples of the Titan deities stood.
Really appreciate you saying so! I will definitely be trying to tackle the Chinese and Japanese at some point, hopefully beating their official releases.
Thank you so much for saying so my friend! We're writing the campaign is a pretty interesting idea... I feel like it might piss off a lot of people who are very nostalgic for the original. While I'm not sure the idea if it's perfectly with the core focus of my channel, I think it's a really interesting proposal and I very much appreciate you being interested in hearing my thoughts on it. I will put it on the list for down the line!
You know Greeks and Norse are also Indo-European civs and their mythology descends from Indo-European mythology/religion right? So what good is there to rename Atlanteans into ''Indo-European'' lmao. I think rebranding Atlanteans as Indo-Europeans is even worser than the original Atlantean concept imo
I understand why they did not include the Romans. Considering that Roman culture took a lot of its inspiration from the Classical Hellenic world in terms of adopting their pantheon of gods and architecture, aesthetically they would have looked too similar to the Greeks. But instead of the Atlanteans, I think the fourth civilization should have been the Phoenicians. The Phoenicians were a distinct ancient culture with their own unique pantheon of gods, and they were contemporary to the ancient Egyptians and Greeks, who traded with them. In fact the Greek alphabet may have come from the Phoenicians. Another thing to consider is that while the Phoenicians were a real civilization (one that was relatively pretty advanced for their time), their history is obscure enough to allow the devs to take some artistic liberties when it comes to adding more flair to the civ and ramping up its coolness factor, just like they did with the Atlanteans. Hell, I think they could even rename the Atlanteans to the Phoenicians and it wouldn't look too out of place. Lets say they replaced their gods, such as Gaia, Oranos and Cronus with Baal, Moloch and El, tweak the architecture a little bit and revamp their units and especially their myth units. Because there are a lot of similarities the Phoenicians share with the Atlanteans in the game. For one, city states such as Sidon, Tyre and Carthage had strong maritime traditions with a huge emphasis on trade and opulent living. That would fit with some of the Atlantean buildings such as their manor houses and palaces. Also the city of Tyre apparently had fire ships, which they deployed to burn down Alexander's siege towers when he laid siege to the city. Granted those fire ships were likely manned by archers shooting fire arrows rather than flamethrowers, but hey I wouldn't be against them being like the Atlantean Fire Ships.
Phoenicians would have been a completely respectable pick. I would say Minoans are another great option that could have had Atlantis-esque aesthetics and offered enough creative liberty for the devs to mostly do what they wanted. So many missed opportunities!
Your point about Celts, Slavs etc... is off though. How many grounded myth units can you come up with? Even with Egypt you can see that the devs not only struggled but outright made things up. Giant Turtle? That is from Greek myth (Theseus). Petsuchos? Not a mythic unit. Wedjat? A god. Phoenix? Again, Greek myth (the Egyptian "equivalent" is a god that has no connection to fire or rebirth). Scorpion Man and Anubites? That is from the movies. Mummies too do not feature in actual Egyptian myth, that is a modern horror story trope. You say the game is oversaturated with Greek myth. If it weren't for Greek myth, you wouldn't even have a game.
The Egyptian culture will certainly add Serpopards (half-lion, half-serpent), Griffons, Ammits (soul-eating demonic creatures that are 1/3 crocodile, 1/3 hippo, 1/3 lion), Naddaha (Rusalkas of the River Nile), Basilisks and Ushabti Constructs a la those in Warhammer Fantasy... and Apep The Greeks will still have the Harpies, the Seirenes (Sirens), Erymanthian Boars, Trojan Sea Monsters, Teumessian Foxes (terrors of Thebes / Thivai) and the Charybdis The Norse: the Draugr (make them more distinct than the Einherjar), Elven Archers, Lindworms (that are not worms, but two-legged serpents), Nøkkens (ambush riverine or lake spirits) and the Lyngbakr (Leviathan-like whale) The Atlanteans: the Catoblepas, the Blemmyes (headless humanoids with eyes on their chests), Unicorns, Lemures (vengeful spirits), Laestrygonian giants and Orthrosses (Kerberos, but two heads)
@@royasturias1784 Egyptians: Serpopards are 1) Not an actual mythical creature with specific characteristics you can put into a game. It does not feature in any Mesopotamian stories and is just there as a figurine they put on walls. 2) Actually a Mesopotamian creature. Griffons are a Mesopotamian creature. Ammit was a goddess, not a creature. It would be like introducing little Thors to the Norse roster, or Demeter to the Greek one. Naddaha is modern folklore, not from ancient Egypt. Basilisks are from Roman bestiaries, not from Egyptian myth. Ushabti from Egyptian religion are nothing like in Warhammer. They were intended as little servants, nothing more. At most you could introduce them as an equivalent to Dwarves, but that would be a stretch. Apep is a god, not a creature, see above. As I write above you also have a ton of myth units in the Egyptian roster that are not actual myth units. Mummies as this "walking dead" thing do not exist in Egyptian myth, it is a modern invention. Anubites and Scorpion Men are from the Mummy film series, not from Egyptian myth. Even if one was to accept your suggestions (none of whom are valid for reasons specified above), they would still barely end up with a playable roster due to cutting all the non-grounded stuff. Greeks: Greeks have loads of myth units because Greek myth is the most comprehensive, especially when it comes to mythical creatures. Regardless potential Greek myth units are irrelevant to my point. Norse: Elven archers are not a thing in Norse myth.
@@johanlassen6448How else would the Egyptians get more myth units? Anubites and Avengers were like Lesser Daemons of Chaos gods, and they can't rely on such wights born of the chosen minor gods' likenesses forever. Avatars (aside from the Son of Osiris God Power) would be more of a Hindu culture specialty. Lamassus, Simurghs and the Nephilim are off-limits. Never must Elves fight with only fisticuffs, hence Elven Archers, I mean in the game, Cyclopes wield clubs, Minotaurs wield maces (or battle axes) when their horns aren't enough, Colossi have relatively big xiphoi, Centaurs and Medusae use bows, Satyrs hurl javelins, Valkyries carry lances, etc.
@@royasturias1784 I didn't say they shouldn't. Read my original post. There is literally no indication that Norse Elves were warriors of any kind. You seem to believe that they are like Elves in LOTR. They aren't. Elves and Dwarves overlap in Norse myth. Hence why "Elven archers" is not a thing.
Gaelic mythology is something of a specialty of mine, and I am very confident I could get three civilizations worth of myth units out of that alone. Commenters have similarly assured me that Slavic mythology, while less of a specialty for me, is in a similar boat. Saying that without Greek myth we wouldn't have a game is somewhat odd to say and I don't really understand the point. Pointing out that some cultures may well not have enough myth units to make a full roster, on the other hand, is reasonable to say. But I don't think that should discourage people from discussing those cultures as possible inclusions. You're completely right though that the Egyptian myth units are nonsense. I really look forward to tackling those in a video at some point!
Honestly, same. It would be awesome to see the Romans and the game someday, even if I would put them way the hell down the priority list, but they would be a damn sight better than the Atlanteans.
Your talk of adding a Proto Indo-European civ made me think of the Nazis' crazy ideas about their "Aryan" "ancestors." Imagine there being an "aryan" civ in AoM 😂
I think if Atlanteans changed into a Mesomaerican civ it would be better! Because their Llama caravan belongs to Incas, their buildings looks like Aztec/Mayan, some of their god powers looks like from rainforests for example venus flytrap and giant spiders. They could be stay as Atlanteans in the campaign. But in skirmish and multiplayer they should be a mesoamerican civ
Shhhhh... The developers are free to interpret the mysterious/lost island of Atlantis and its inhabitants in whatever way they like. Atlantis could have housed advanced tech and most splendid lifestyles that the other civilizations of the time couldn't comprehend, being the cheeky allegory of Athens (then the most prestigious city-state) about the blessings and the dangers of democracy in those times.
I disagree, This game is very much pop cultural approximations of mythology. The Greek myth units look like they walked right out of a Ray Harryhausen movie. The Rock is an Egyptian myth unit. The Norse have horned helmets.
Just because that's what it is now doesn't mean that's what it should be. I would argue that AOM dramatically misses out on its true potential when it plays into pop culture nonsense like this rather than trying its best to authentically fulfill its source material
Atlantis is first and foremost a myth, this is not something that is argued or pondered, since it's existence can't be proven. Also, its pantheon and units also make quite a lot of sense, the greek mythology has this unique and extremely distinguishable difference between the "current" pantheon and a supposed "old" pantheon, the titans. Splitting them in 2 and adding titans to the game fits perfectly to what age of mythology is all about. Especially since the greeks hated the titans and they were uniquely fleshed out. A roman civilization would make zero sense, however, only because their pantheon is way too similar to the greek one, even though the civ itself would be very cool. They might decide some day that they want to add them, but for now, the chinese and indian pantheons are way more interesting.
I responded to you in another comment thread just now, but just to make sure that thread isn't lost: I don't think that we can use the word "myth" in a colloquial sense to summarize what this game is about. This is a game about MYTHOLOGY, and Atlantis is absolutely not mythology. So apologies if I misled you by using the terms myth and mythology somewhat interchangeably, I felt like the context made it obvious what I was going for
I agree with you, but for me, F the Atlanteans and make them what they were originally intended to be, Romans. Murmillo, Destroyer, FFS... Gladiator and Legionnaire! Your point about period incongruency is dead in the water: Atlantis is Stone Age, Egypt is Bronze Age, Greece is mostly Iron Age, and the Norse are not even in Antiquity... So it is already a mess, no point in senselessly restricting the devs. Much better to enjoy each culture at their peak, when they are at their most beautiful, complex, rich...
That's quite literally the opposite of what I believe. I actually think that the AOM timeline doesn't matter whatsoever and fully endorse civilizations coming from different periods. Hence why my alternate proposal for the Atlanteans is themed around the proto Indo-Europeans, who literally existed thousands of years before the Egyptians. Legitimately not sure where you are getting that from in my presentation. If you give me a timestamp that would be helpful
@@robbylava No, you're right. I misunderstood this part: 3:47 I understood that you were rejecting classical Rome in favor of an earlier period, but you were only talking about a visual overhaul.
And I read: Atlantis was "originally used by Plato solely as a backdrop to a philosophical conversation about starcraft".
He did what's called a "pro gamer move"
So you are saying that the Antlantians need a special campaign that focuses solely on them where they fight evil alien bugs on the moon?
I do want to see the Chryseon, specially their architecture ideas
Awesome! Glad you like the idea enough to see more
@@robbylava I’d also probably download a reskin mod, even tough I’m nostalgic about the atlantean designs. Mostly because the meso american gladiators truly look out of place and I love PIE stuff. Oranos being “sky father” and gaia being “mother earth” would be so easy it’s genius
main thing to keep in mind is that the game is primarily a fantasy game inspired by mid-century b-movies
This is definitely true, but I don't think it's something we should still aspire to.
If you played Age of mythology as a kid, was what drew you to it the fact that it was based on a bunch of cheesy pop culture references? At least for me, and many others I have spoken to, we were drawn to it because we loved mythology and wanted to see it represented in games!
And so because of that, I think it is a good and proper goal to attempt to add proper mythological grounding to the game. If not, what is stopping a Lovecraftian faction from being a valid addition? A mod implemented it, after all.
@@robbylava I do definitely see your angle, I’m not so much arguing against is as just pointing out something that heavily influenced the reason it came out the way it did. Personally I bought AOM because my older brother had Age of Empires 1 and I wanted a similar game (lol). And the Eldritch mod is actually really good (albeit very OP)
@grymdylan oh for sure! I tried to emphasize in my video that I do think I understand why they did it, I just very substantially disagree with the reasoning.
Younger siblings definitely have it different heheheh. I was the oldest, so I never really would have thought of that, great point.
I wonder how many people with some amount of control over the purchase, either being the ones paying for it or directly requesting it, did so mostly for the love of mythology? That would be really interesting to look into, but probably impossible at this point.
Great idea, especially relegating the Chryseon into a Titanic subfaction. Also opens up the doors for other similar subfactions - Jotnar-aligned Norse (heck, maybe even Vanir-aligned Norse as well), or a faction representing one of the four (!) previous races of humans in Aztec mythology. It would also be a heck of a better way to introduce the Romans.
Thanks so much for saying so my friend! Really glad you liked it. I was quite pleased with how this one went heheheh
Vanir and Aesir worshipping subfactions for the Norse would be very close to their myth "canon", ngl
I really wish someone makes a mod or the devs make a DLC depicting the Greeks as Mycenaeans and the Norse as more bronze age, so both fit better with the other bronze age factions.
Edit: I would also like if the atlanteans besides the Indo-European theming also had bit Minoan inspired stuff in their navy to imply there could be a connection between both Thalassocracies
Yeah, they really jumped between times willy-nilly. Especially for the Chinese
I don't personally hate the time jumping as much in age of mythology as I do in Age of Empires, as it allows the civilizations to have more varied militaries. Plus, the myth units often are drawn from at least a couple hundred if not over a thousand years apart from each other.
But I do think that for some factions where we have a ton of information, like the Greeks, going for more historically cohesion could definitely be an improvement.
Bro it's not about history it's about mythology? Can you not read or do you have tiny eyes?
Theres this game called "Age of Empires" I think you'd like it.
@@robbylava stop removing my comments
Inb4 Lovecraft faction is added to AoM.
Hohohohoh
Does he know?
@@thegeneralissimo6172 I DID NOT. The fact that this was actually a part of a mod is upsetting to me in a way that I don't think many people would find reasonable
@@robbylava😅
@@robbylava It's all just a dream, my friend. Just a dream....
The Atlanteans are simply and extension of the greeks... you have Kronos, Gaia, Oranos, Prometheus, ... these are all from greek mythology. So why are we calling them Atlantean?
Because Greeks didn’t worship the titans. They hated them.
Yep, the Greeks in the majority of cases wouldn't be caught dead worshiping a Titan. Hence why, if we absolutely MUST have the Titans in the game (which I don't personally think we do), it makes infinitely more sense for them to be worshiped by a people, real or fictional, who were actually known to have worshiped them
Well, you've convinced me that your fixes would have been a better way to portray the exact same culture/mechanics/pantheon without calling them Atlantians. As I was watching this, though, I couldn't help but compare the Chryseon to the ancients as depicted in Final Fantasy 14's Endwalker.
Anyway, I really liked learning about the Koryon from you. It's gotten my own creative juices flowing.
Hehehe thank you so much my friend! I really appreciate you giving my ideas here a chance.
Proto Indo European culture is extremely cool, so I'm glad if nothing else you had a chance to learn more about it. There are definitely many parallels to them in fantasy world building, so I'm totally unsurprised that a game as vast as FF14 has something similar
Brilliantly thought through Sir bravo… but this CHRŸSEON GÉNOS or golden race… if someone, like myself wished to use the name for a story or alternative media, would that be OK to do, copyright, and all that kind of thing you know?
Thank you very much for saying so!
I can absolutely assure you that it is not copyrighted whatsoever, and if some moron out there has tried to copyright it then it would not hold up in court. Use it however you want!
You're telling me the devs don't deserve to have creative liberty? Why do you want to remove something perfect that has already been in the game for years. Why not continue this path and make civs similar to this, such as for example the hyperborea with all its mammoths and megafauna?
Great vid! I appreciate the amount of research that must go into making these vids.
You and I differ on the "pop mythology" thing. While it'd be cool if Age of Mythology was more true to history/mythology, I just don't think it would fit the game - too many things would have to be changed.
That being said, I've also had issues with the Atlanteans' inclusion. I think a middle-happy ground for me is what you mentioned at the end of the vid - take aesthetic inspiration from Minoan/Archaic Greece rather than the Romans.
Thanks very much for saying so man! I really appreciate it.
Though that solution doesn't go at all far enough for me personally, I think it's a very smart middle ground.
Great to see you in the comments again!
I remember suggesting on the AOM reddit once that Atlantean architecture should be based of Minoans.
It would be a nice way to include them in the setting and they would fit pretty well with the theme of Atlantis as you said.
It would also def be better than the Mayan stuff they have now, especially if we want to see Mayans added in the future.
They might as well have roman units though, i don't want Rome either but making up something for the Minoan military would be difficult since we only have one depiction of their military and it's just some people with spears and this way we still partially get elements of Rome.
Titan worship also makes sense since we don't know much about Minoan religion either except for one possible goddess statue and since titans are supposed to be precursor gods it makes sense for them since Minoans were sort of a precursor to Greece.
Minoans would be a tremendous improvement, though I would personally still strongly oppose the Roman stuff. I don't love the Titan analogy as a direct one to one for them, but it would certainly be a damn sight better and a lot more plausible than what we have now
gotta respect the "hating" hustle
be a fan for so long, and still put out a video
amazing
Very fun idea and inspired idea that fixes the biggest problems with the Atleantiean's visual/thematic style.
I would like to see a mock-up of a few important buildings and units in this new Proto-Indo-European style, just as a Visualisation aid, as well as any mechanical changes (other than their old Favor generation).
Visual mockups are a great idea. Would be a little challenging to do, I'd have to really stretch my googling abilities to source the images, but I definitely want to at least try that. Thanks a lot for suggesting it.
Very interesting take on how to retcon the Atlanteans! Would love to see a full build for the Chryseon, although that name is still a mouthful and weird af 😅, but I'd buy it anyways.
Now, I can't help but wonder what would you do with tha campaigns if such retcon was to ever happen, particularly the New Atlantis campaign...
Thanks my friend! Definitely want to bring you guys a full build at some point, though I think I'm going to try some other pantheons first.
You aren't the first person to ask me about the campaign, and I'm honestly not sure how I approach it! I always try to ground what I talk about on the channel, but since the campaigns are complete fiction I don't really know if I would feel comfortable tackling them! Might seem like a weird distinction, but it doesn't feel like my place, somehow? I don't really know how to put it into words.
Regardless, since you and a few others have mentioned it, I will definitely consider it. Thank you very much for talking the time to share your thoughts.
As a original Age of Mythology fan I think the Whole Titan thing is just not needed, Atlantheans should also be cut.
I was mad as a child that instead of Titans they didnt let you summon the Real gods, for me that would have been more intresting.
But I havent played the titan campain maybe its good and give you some explanations.
For me Its should be about mythology with historical factions. + Myths. So I am with you.
I believe in that Atlantis fits in the game.
Its Mythology / Fantasy, it fits the story and lore, Atlantis in itself is a myth, why not spice it up?
As mentioned in the video, I do not believe you can consider Atlantis a myth, and even if you very charitably construe it as such, the fact that it was added to the game before at least two dozen other cultures who deserved it more and would have added far more variety to the game while coming from a more valid mythological canon is an absolute travesty.
If I may ask, not trying to gotcha I promise, how would you personally define a myth?
@@robbylava a myth is any historical information that cannot be proven. Like the existence of cyclops or the nemean lion. So it isn't "arguably", it is just that, a myth. In fact, Atlantis is one of the greatest and most well known myths in human history.
If you want to use the word myth in a colloquial sense (aka "MythBusters") then sure, I suppose you can call Atlantis a myth. But this is not a game about myths in the colloquial sense, it is a game about mythology. Would you define mythology as any historical fact that cannot be proven? Because, if so, I consider that to be a flat out wrong and utterly reductive definition.
@@robbylava Im gonna main Atlantis now
@AMasondude do it! They're as fun as they are dumb
They should be overhauled to be more MINOAN and MYCENEAN. Not ROMAN.
I'm in the faction that thinks Rome would make for a great addition and their pantheon and myths are sufficiently different from the classical Greeks to make it fun and distinct, but for the ATLANTEANS, any kind of Mesoamerican or Roman aesthetics feel way out of place. As the Mycenaean and especially MINOANS are essentially not depicted in game art at all and even in pop culture, styling the Atlanteans after them would make a lot of sense and for a really cool aesthetic.
I feel like the Atlanteans were added only to be unexpected and get players attention. I mean, the game is all about fantasy and myths, having a civ like that would make people think "What? I need to see how this civ works".
It's possible, though at the same time I have a pretty hard time believing that the Atlanteans in particular would sell more copies than other civilizations on coolness factor alone.
I also think that the game being based on both fantasy and myth, as you mentioned, is a problem. This isn't to say that you're wrong, quite the contrary! I think your analysis is spot on. But I think that this bastardization of mythology using modern fantasy pop culture tropes is a major issue and many others have with the game.
It isn't called Age Of Mythology AND Fantasy, after all, and I think that it is a disservice to the source material to misrepresent it so substantially with a bunch of pop culture nonsense when sticking to the actual myths more faithfully would have produced a game that could have been just as mechanically sound and way more vibrant and interesting.
I do think the fact that the Atlanteans was the civ in this expansion must have helped to sell more copies. I can't speak for everyone else, but it definitely caught my attention. Like I said, this civ goes full myth, i was like "what are they gonna do with it?". It was fun and unexpected. Calling them Chryseon Genos instead of Atlanteans would be a problem for the marketing team, how do you sell that? Hahaha
As for the disrespect for the source material... The source material is pure nonsense. I get that you like more grounded stuff but I wouldnt say it's bastardization of mythology. If a videogame can't play with a civ that didn't even exist (and didn't offend anyone since, unlike the Greeks, the Atlanteans never existed) to give us something fun... Well, that's just bad for videogames.
Oh I'm not saying that games CAN'T do it, not at all, but let me pitch you this: what if we got Battle For Middle Earth 3, a proper RTS game set in the Tolkien universe, and some asshat suggested that as the first DLC we add a faction from Game Of Thrones. Would you personally have a problem with that? If you don't care about any of those IPs, could you at least see why some people who DO care about them might have a problem with that, and why them feeling that way would be justified?
Age Of Mythology does not pitch itself as a "pop fantasy game". It is grounded in a body of work, just like Lord Of The Rings -- such works being fictional does NOT somehow validate them being disrespected, misrepresented, or outright butchered!
If we RTS nerds who love world mythology already had a game that did the topic proper justice, I personally would see no reason to ever get salty over other games trying something new. My frustration comes from me seeing a niche -- a brilliant opportunity for AOM to do something that no other game really does and I think a lot of players would really, really appreciate -- and it blatantly squandering that opportunity for minimal observable benefit beyond a couple of hokey pop culture references.
Do you see where I'm coming from?
I mean. Aren't Romans basically a reskin of the Greeks when it comes to mythology?
No, because romans had a lot of unical elements in their mythology. Unical gods (Ianvs, Qvirin), unical rituals and myths (example, mythology of Rome city).
Example, Mars in roman mythology isn't just Ares - he is god of war and DEFENCE, defence of lands and farms' fields, because Mars may to kill demons, that destroys harvest.
@@Miklosh.ProstoiMythology and religion are not exactly the same. And with regard to mythology, it is true that the Romans practically limited themselves to adopting Greek myths, barely creating their own myths.
I would say a reskin is not the correct framing of it.
It is definitely true that they adopted many Greek deities and put their own spin on it, much the same way that the Greeks themselves did with Egyptian deities and stories.
However, I would very strongly hold that the Romans did establish plenty of their own mythology, not to mention having a number of gods that I really don't think you could argue as being anyone's but their own, not to mention placing very different levels of emphasis on certain gods that they shared with the Greeks.
That definitely isn't to say I would highly prioritize them for age of mythology! Maybe if the game had 20 factions they could be the 21st or something. But they definitely aren't a reskin, and as such I do think are meritorious of being included someday even if it is not a high priority.
Roman religion and mythology spanned 1000 years. You can include the cults, such as Mithra and Hercules, as well as Celtic cults adopted by the soldiers (Epona). And the Roman pantheon is not a 1:1 copy of the Greeks. They were "adjacent" to the Greeks and had many similar aspects, but they were still unique.
People commenting really don't understand that Titan worship was basically Heresy for the Greeks, as in, the equivalent of Christians abhorring the worship of Satan.
The fact they're so non-chalant about the concept in the Titan's Campaign really demonstrates that the writers only had a surface level understanding of ancient Greek Religious studies ... I find it so hilarious that Kastor is forgiven by the Greek Gods for attacking literally all the pantheons because he was "tricked", which shouldnt have been a problem in the first place because not - worshipping Titans was an engrained societal norm for Greek peoples.
This is even more hilarious when you realize that Arkantos is a literal DEIFIED GOD , and could have told Kastor to stop at any moment... But only did so when the plot necessitated it.
I'm not sure I'd go quite this far, it's definitely not a one-to-one comparison, but it's definitely a hell of a lot closer to the truth than the nonsense portrayed in game.
If nothing else, you're completely right that the blinding plot hole of Kastor only being brought back on course by Arkantos when that could have happened at the very beginning of the story is laughable to say the least. I didn't even remember that part!
Things like bipedal Cerberus, Harryhausen Medusa, and lava monster Kronos make me butthurt too. lol
I guess back then I was just happy to see Greek Mythology portrayed without Hades being the villain. I don't know why they ignored Typhon.
Oh Lord don't even get me started on the in game Titans!
You are definitely right there that it was refreshing to see Haiti's not portrayed as a villain. I remember that was something I really liked when I was younger, as a dyed in the wool mythology nerd
As a lover of Greek mythology i argue there is no such thing as oversaturation regarding Greeks. The Atlanteans are a contrived way of including more Greek myth stuff. Im especcially curious how you would replace them. Mesapotamian gods would seem cool to me...might overlap with egyptians though
Personally I adore Greek mythology too. If the game were nothing but Greek mythology I would still probably have played it and loved it almost as much.
If you're interested in seeing my take on Mesopotamia, check out the video I recently put out!
Oh, Atlantis is a Myth. Just mainly a modern one (loosely based on Plato)
The bad part of is more modern mythic background is that it generally there to promote this idea of a lost master race.
But I will say, just because the myth is relatively modern does not make it less of a myth. And so can have value.
That said, I think Atlantis works more as a vessel to explore more of Greek myth going into the Titans. They are called Atlanteans. And mix some of the modern myths of Atlantis in it. But in core it feels a lot like this being a Greek extension. And what I liked the most was that deep dive in to the Titans. Part of the modern myth is actually drawing from the idea of different cultures being inspired by this ancient civilization. The idea of Romans and Mesoamericans drew inspiration from Atlantis. This of course have it host of own issues. (But at least in this case, Rome gets the same treatment as many non-western cultures tend to get when it comes to Atlantis.) It is actually fitting with the modern myth of Atlantis. The idea of this large empire that used to rule and have colonies both Africa, Europe, and America as this large lost island continent in the Atlantic. And was at the time absolutely not their own invention.
I think it is important to actually understand the context in which this is made. I do think that it is less likely this would have been done today since we have a more critical view of the sources we draw from. Back when Age of Empires and Mythology was made, sadly the research was a bit light. But even more so, there was less focus on the critical thinking about how something is depicted. At least I think the biggest sin is just that it draw a lot of inspiration from a relatively modern myth about Atlantis that has some dark undertones and undermines other cultures. I do think it did a pretty good job in general if one discount this. I would have less issue with the cultural mixing if it was reversed. That is, that Atlanteans took inspiration from the surrounding cultures rather than being the inspiration. Though this would also break with the modern myth. But then again the modern myth is what you maybe should not draw on. It has this feel of drawing from what seem cool without going one step deeper. Still a bit better than what game developers used to do in the 80s and 90s when they just took the most shallow parts and did the most cursory research. This at least have had some research and I think it shows. Even if it far from perfect.
Should they have added other cultures myths instead? Yes. But what is done is done. Complaining about how Slavic Mythology or Japanese Mythology will not change things. And I find this complaint a bit shallow. Especially since there are no set slots of cultures that can be added. In theory, you could add a thousand different cultures. Heck, I would not mind seeing Lovecraftian Mythos inspired addition even if I like other myths first. (And yes I know how problematic a lot of Lovecrafts work is too. And Cosmic horror is a bit wider, the Lovecraft on top of that.) What is more annoying to me is that did not add more really. But also was another time where you did not do a lot of expansions in that way. But today, as long as they make good extra content and people keep buying them, we could actually add all those interesting cultures.
Now I will say your proposed fixes I think are not bad at all... just a bit too late and will likely just annoy people more than it would satisfy people. Renaming some stuff would likely work. They have been willing to do so. And most would not get too upset about it. Even if I have seen people be just that for the most stupid reasons (Though I do think it is more their problem then our problem). Any major change to graphics would absolutely annoy most people, I think. And for those that say they're changing the graphics anyway with retold... Well, retold is trying to stay true to the source. Almost all graphics are very true to the original. And the few time they do make their own take on things, most people criticize them for it. Gaia's new look is something that comes to mind. I do not mind it too much but saw it an s a rather unneeded redesign since classical depictions of Gaia often have her be rather human. But I have seen plenty of people dislike it.
(Oh, and one more thing... Norse helmets with horns? Really? Actual example of a relatively modern idea. About as old as most Atlantean myths we have to deal today. Personally, I would actually love if they ditched the horned helmets but hay. I bet I am a minority. But just shows that this sort of using modern ideas or myths as inspiration actually exist in other part of the game. A bit of a tangent, but hay. )
Solid points, and I agree with the overarching sentiment. There is no doubt that my proposed changes would be taken poorly, but the point of my channel is not necessarily to directly change or influence the games that I'm talking about, more to show how they could be better and more faithful to their source material.
I actually completely agree with the sentiment that modern myths are fair game, though I feel like maybe they would be better suited for a sequel to Age of Mythology more focused in the early modern age (though to be honest I wouldn't hate them being included in the base game as well, I just feel like a lot of people would really detest that).
However, while I do feel like early modern myths are fair game, I also feel like the representation of Atlantis we have is a cobbled-together mess that doesn't even really fit well with the supposed source material it is based on. More than that, the fact that it was added before about two dozen other more deserving cultures is an absolute travesty in my eyes.
But like you said, we can't change the past! Even though I am happy to discuss what could have been.
I am right there with you on the horned helmets thing, by the way. There are a lot of other annoying and easily fixable inaccuracies in this wonderful game that I love so dearly, and I fully intend on discussing them all at length in future videos!
I'd love to hear your take on a potential Gaul pantheon, this video format is very enjoyable :) !
Gallic Big 3 IMO: Cernunnos (vegetation and the wild), Taranis (T&L, rain), Sucellos (wine, fortune)
Sadly much lacking in myth units / cryptids (of their own) for the Gallic Celtic minor gods to be attached to in the game mainly because Druids of Gallia to Galatia of Asia Minor had this strict policy of no-writing-down their knowledge by their fellow tribesmen, having taken them to the grave, outside of secondhand codices by ancient Romans and the Larzac Tablet.
Irish Big 3: The Dagda (protection, magic and knowledge), The Mórrigan (war and prophecy), Lúgh (the sun, fire and nobility)
Interestingly, Irish Celtic minor gods can have myth units (that are many to choose from) attached to them, say selecting Nuada Airgetlám (war and hunting) authorizes the recruitment of Werewolves of Ossory and selecting The Cailleach (time, diseases and winter) for the Bean-sidhe / Banshees.
Wonderful to hear you say it! I'm sure I will tackle them at some point, though I will probably try out the Gaels first (even if I think they are less likely than a unified Celtic Pantheon).
@@robbylava Definitely ! I'll be keeping my eyes peeled for the Gaels (to be fair, there's far more material to work from on them than the Gauls I believe) Thank you for the interaction :D !
Personally, i don't care much for the addition of more cultures such as japanese and aztecs. I would much more prefer, if they expanded some of the great civilisations we already have. There are so many gods still left to be added and so many heroes in the greek mythos, that one could easily have 4-5 main pantheons in each civilisation. Or if one wants to keep it to three main gods for each civ, then one could add three options instead of two. But that's just my take, nice video
Thanks for saying so my friend!
I completely agree with you that there is still a TON of material in the current pantheons to be explored. However, I personally love the idea of adding more cultures in the game while simultaneously fleshing out the ones that we have now.
I would be interested in seeing new pantheons and maybe doing a Chinese one. Kind of how u did a Romans build before they got released. So do a Chinese pantheon before they r released. But definitely want to see new pantheons added.
Going to try my best to do them before they are released for sure!
Very well made!
Thanks so much for saying so!
Clicked the video for age of empires
Got tricked into a history lesson
damn you!!
Hehehe gotcha!
1500 AD Myth seems reasonable enough for me to include in the game, considering it's time frame is... a frame i guess but nothing historic in any way. Those norse, greek and egyptian snapshots are so weirdly put together, you could argue including myths from 1500 so on doesnt kill the games lore
+ the game already includes pulp and pop cultural Interpretations. (Viking horned helmets, medusas design, the colossus etc
The Atlantis myth was mostly developed in 19th and early 20th century theosophy from earlier references. It's a modern myth. In some ways, outgrowths like ancient alien stuff has its place in AOM.
So I actually completely agree that early modern myths are completely fair game! Once again, I just feel like Atlantis being included over at least two dozen other far more deserving cultures was a travesty.
Additionally, I don't feel like our current incarnation even comes close to the early modern source material it seems to be based on. It feels extremely forced.
I also think that the other pop culture references included in the game actually work to its detriment, and I will be going into far more detail about them in future videos!
Didn't know Christian Bale was into Age of Mythology
Heheheh I'll take the compliment! You're the second person to make that comparison recently, never heard it in my life until I turned 30
"You didn't have to cut me off..."
First!
Could you do this with the names and images of AoE2 techs? Looking at Squires, Husbandry, Leather Archer Armor and the like
What a fantastic idea! I will absolutely put this on my list of to do's
Should have touch on new alatlantis mechanics like oracles and if they fit
When I made this video I didn't know about those changes. A couple people have informed me since then, and I actually think the new Oracle mechanic in particular is really awesome. Just from a flavor perspective it's a million times better, and I do think it could fit very neatly into this proposal I have.
Been a fan of this game for such a long time. Can't wait to see the remake and hopefully the new civs they will add.
I've also always felt the Atlanteans made no sense and love your take here. Would love to see any theory crafts you have on new AOM civs!
Really appreciate you saying so my friend! I definitely plan on doing more, even though AOE2 is almost certainly going to remain the focus for the channel.
I dont think it should really be changed because while it doesnt fit neatly into a whole mythology the Atlanteans are a very big part of the Campaign, so they're less their own Mythology & more the devs own creation.
Also at this point its way too late to change the Atlanteans so its better to just add new Mythologies (we're already getting 1 after the Chinese).
The only thing i would change is giving certain Atlantean gods like Helios & Leto to the Greeks.
Also Im not a fan of how they made Gaia an elemental, i feel like they should make all the Atlantean gods elementals or all of them humam looking not a mix of both.
Most unfortunately I do agree with you that it is probably too late to change them. But I'm still happy to discuss doing so from a perspective of what I think should have been rather than what I think is practical to do.
And like you say there are smaller changes that could pretty easily be done that would fix some of the issues with the civilization, even if it's base premise is fundamentally nonsense
@@robbylava since the Romans are a popular request they could do something similar to AOE4's Variant civilizations where they keep the base mechanics of the civ the same but add new visuals & slightly tweak bonuses.
I guess they could do a Mycenean variant for Atlantis, they could also do an Orphic variant for the Atlantians that Replaces Ouranos with Zeus, Gaia with Persephone & Chronos with Dionysus, could be interesting.
Variant civilizations could be interesting. I would prefer new cultures where possible, but variants could be a great way to keep the content coming without burdening the development team too much
I'd say the Chrysteon concept and the Greek subfaction concept have separate advantages. For preserving the Atlantean _faction_ as we know it while still giving it more of a coherent and fitting identity, the Chrysteon proto-Indo-European approach is a brilliant take. Where the Greek subfaction concept shines is that it would allow The New Atlantis to be changed for coherence with Fall of the Trident with minimal story rewriting, and would set a precedent for subfactions for other factions.
Thank you so much for saying so my friend! This is pretty much exactly my thoughts on the matter as well. I would honestly be okay with either approach, though I'm of course quite fond of how I implemented this Chryseon idea
It does in retrospect strike me that unlikely as it is _both_ could be an option. The Chrysteon keeps the Atlantean faction going with its new more coherent identity, but has a new pantheon (maybe leaning towards reconstructed proto-Indo-European mythology? Unfamiliar names, but with some echoing familiarity and recognisable archetypes), while a "Titanophile" or somesuch Greek subfaction takes over a mechanically adjusted Atlantean pantheon and being the associated faction of the New Atlanteans in The New Atlantis.
@LordInsane100 I actually think this is a great take. Proto-indo-European stuff is so cool that I did feel kind of sheepish "wasting" it on this faction. Instead, what I would probably do is keep the name Chryseon for this Titan faction but shift its human aesthetics, maybe to early Mycenaean or something like that if I could find the research details on it.
I only went with the PIE stuff this time because I thought of a bunch of really perfect parallels with existing Atlantean units, but if I were able to design it from scratch then I would make very different decisions!
❤
It's incredible how easily and so much better this would be :O I'm actually surprised nobody thought of this before. The only disadvantage I see is that it would be a way harder sell than atlanteans because people wouldn't recognize any of this.
Hey! Really glad you think so! I was quite proud of it myself hehehehe
I do think it's a slightly harder sell, but It does still have the more common touchstone of the Titans, and they wouldn't have to bring the PIE stuff to the front, just have it subtly flavoring things behind the scenes.
Great video, I enjoyed watching this as well as your proposed cultures in your last aom retold video. I understand you approached this with a focus on the accuracy and creativity aspect, while reiterating that you had appreciated what the devs had done before. But I wanted to address your question on why it was the Atlanteans who were more so created rather than some actual mythological culture. Seeing the Chinese expansion should explain it. Sure, that had been done with poor accuracy and poor balance, but even if it had been done accurately it would not have been as well recieved as Atlanteans. Atlanteans on release were very strong, just like the Chinese, but what made Atlanteans a better choice was the gameplay aspects. There were so many more Greek mythological creatures that werent included such as satyrs, Argus, Heka Giganties, automoton, and so on that really deserved to be in there. Not to mention it worked narratively and seemed like the obvious choice. The titan gods really fit in well into the game and it had just worked out for the Atlanteans to worship them. They had been betrayed by their Greek god so why stay loyal? Not to mention they'd been completely abandoned since they have been struggling for a decade by themselves, nearly eradicated. They were desperate, and the weakened gates from the Fall of the Tridant campaign allowed for the titans to have a little more power. So Kronos and Oranos (or Ouranos) using them to basically get back at the Olympians makes sense. And the main campaign left on a cliffhanger, with Atlantis sinking with a bunch of displaced Atlanteans. So having it come full circle to conclude their story was fitting. Not to mention how including a new civilization had to be related to the original 3 somehow. Sure, they couldve done something else, but it wouldve felt more forced. The New Atlantis campaign fit in perfectly with the original, making sense narratively, in their story, despite it maybe not making sense mythologically. I was actually a bit miffed that Oranos and Gaia were included since those are technically primordials and not titans (which I was surprised how you didnt bring that up) but even then, it felt like it made sense and had that flavor that was consistant with the rest of the pantheons. None were really accurate, and even the original campaign took many liberaties. Like a fully fictional Arkantos being at the Trojan war. Or going from Greece or Egypt to Scandinavia. Not to mention all the other mythological inaccuracies that are too long to list. Personally, I really wished the Atlantean titan was the hecatoncheries (spealt that wrong for sure lol) which im sure you have many personal wishes for this game as well, but honestly, the Atlanteans was the only choice. Anything else and it wouldve felt too seperate from the rest of the game. The only other option was to do nothing. So thats why they went with Atlanteans rather than Aztecs, Gaels, Sumerians, Japanese, Persians, etc.
Thanks so much for the kind words my friend!
I completely understand what you are saying, but I do have to respectfully disagree with them being the only choice. Yes, while the Age of Mythology campaign is completely fictionalized, this also means that the creators have full narrative control over what happens in it and where the story goes. There is nothing stopping them from making just as good of a plot using a civilization besides the Atlanteans!
Now I do think there is one potential scenario where you would be completely right: IF they locked in the plot for the Titans expansion BEFORE working on the actual mechanical side and civilization implementations, then I think you are right that they would have kind of forced themselves to go with Atlantis. Admittedly, I can't really see a way where this sort of thing would happen, but I don't know enough about the industry at the time to discount it. Maybe it was a studio issue? Maybe the writers spelled out the story from the very beginning and only could tell half of it in the first game? I'm not sure.
Either way, I think you make some pretty interesting points, but it doesn't change my overall personal beliefs that the civilization was a very poor decision. I really appreciate you giving such a thorough response though, and if nothing else you have given me at least one scenario where the decision could have been rational, for which I commend you!
@robbylava one thing I forgot to mention is Kastor, Arkantos's son. He wasnt a main figure in the original campaign but he definitely was still important. So in a way they were stuck to including him, which probably gave way to the Atlantean civilization. Additionally, any other civilization would feel forced. Look at the Chinese campaign. It was very poorly recieved. Granted it was for reasons past it's isolation from the rest of the pantheons, but it being seperate was still the biggest issue. Arkantos was a god now and we had all these established, prominent characters like Amanra and Ajax. Not to mention how they included Folstag which was awesome. So cool to see that connection. I honestly wish they had included another civilization like you suggested in your concepts video. Sumerians sound awesome with the deposit at Ziggarauts for favor and such, or Aztec sacrificing. But even if these had been included, I believe Atlanteans were inevitable and necessary. It worked narratively and gameplay wise. It worked way too well to have ignored or substituted. Especially with the titan gods. It's obvious that Greek mythology is the most widely known and most well documented for its time. So not having a way to include titan gods would've been dissapointing. Don't forget the inclusion of the titan units for each pantheon. It wouldn't have made sense to include that with some other pantheon. Sure, it's inaccurate, as most of the titans weren't actually huge, since it's often a misconception between the titans and the giganties. However, the titan units in skirmish and such fit in the campaign well. You got to remember that the campaign has to serve as a tutorial/introduction to whatever new things there are. So you get to fight Cerberus and Ymir which are in skirmish, then Prometheus and Kronos who still have the same rough stats. Not to mention controlling a titan of your own, Gaia. So honestly I do think they were locked in and any other pantheon wouldn't have made sense in the gameplay or narrative. Also since I have your attention I did want to mention that the proposed favor generation for the Japanese was so complicated 😅. It's accurate and fitting but very convoluted. Going from fighting for favor or praying at a temple to building a building far from others and upgrading it and having a spirit enter it is a bit convoluted. But other than that I do really like the Japanese concept, I'd love to see a Shinobi with a stealth element or a Ronin. But Sumerians were my favorite by far, having the town center as the only drop off and Ziggarauts.
@tubagaming1376 yeah the Japanese favor idea was just something I loosely cobbled together, if I do a more substantive build for them I will try to come up with something more grounded.
I do get where you're coming from and I think you are making more compelling arguments than just about anyone else in this comment section, but I still completely do not believe that the Atlanteans were necessary or inevitable.
The Chinese campaign was poorly received not just because it didn't feature the other civilizations well, but more because the scenarios were boring and poorly designed, the story was crap, and the civilization itself was bad. I think most people would put the fact that the other AOM civilizations didn't feature enough well down the list of gripes.
But let's assume that some of what you said was absolutely mandatory to be included in a Titans campaign: Kastor as the protagonist, bunch of returning characters so they have to stay in the same general region, Titans are a core plot element, etc.
EVEN THEN introducing a completely new civilization would not be hard at all! Imagine: Kastor leads the Atlanteans, represented by Greeks like they were in the original game, to a new land that they try to settle only to find a completely new civilization already there (Sumeria could work perfectly for this, but a whole bunch of other potential additions could work just as well)! At first they fight, but then the coming of the Titans forces them all to put aside their differences and work together to stop this new threat.
See what I mean? Not hard at all! And this was just a very quick idea I put together in a TH-cam comment, if you actually had a couple writers work shopping this for a month or so I think they can come up with a story that was just as compelling and connected to the original AOM campaign as the Titans one ended up being.
I should also note that there are quite a few commenters who have expressed to me that they really didn't like the Titans campaign, which came as a surprise seeing as I quite liked it. This tells me that there are a lot of improvements that could have been made to it, and it should not be held up by itself as universal justification for changes made to the game to accommodate it.
Pardon the wall of text. I hope you get what I'm going for here. Again though, I do appreciate the points you're making and think they are more compelling than most of the others I have read.
Second!
Thanks for bothering me with this problem. xD
You're welcome! Heheheh
Atlantis fits the term mythology even if it never existed. To claim Atlantis not being a myth is absurd.
Have you tried watching the video? AoM is about pantheon of existing civilizations, not fictional. Atlantis stands out like a sore thumb.
@@ljuc The altanteans ''gods'' or Titans were in the greek mythology. They were not fictional just rarely worship
Honest question, not trying to gotcha: in your opinion, what precisely makes Atlantis a myth?
@@robbylava The main reason it's considered a myth is that there is no proof of its existence, like Troy if we ever find proof of its existence then it won't be a myth but until we do it's a myth.
Also the story that it was sunk as punishment by the gods is definitely a myth.
I gotta say, Robby, this has been my favorite video from your channel. I don't like the theme of the Atlanteans at all. I really would like to see the rework you are proposing in this video
Wow! Thank you so much for saying so my friend! I'm thrilled to hear you liked it.
My experience with the AOM modding scene is pretty much zero, so unfortunately it will probably be a very long time, if ever, that I could actually implement these changes. But who knows? Maybe someday we can make it happen!
@@robbylava yeah, modding can be quite difficult. But still, I would love to see you expand this ideas in another video. Keep up the good work! Your channel is a hidden gem!
@SparkDragon1480 you bet I will! Thank you so much for the kind words
I say its odd but Atlantis overall is as much of a fictional setting in well, Mediterranean myth (IE made by one guy), though it for some folks nowadays, thinking its a real place and ancient writers are incapable of fiction...
And saying its a real place with some racial undertones, though hopefully if other civs are coming to AOM retold, hopefully the devs go all out. Get the Celtics with their limited option of armor and watch them make the whole forest walk. Oh shit the trees are fighting back.
If you look at Hittite mytholagy they have alot of overlap woth the Titans and should just mate a hittite pantheon
I know literally nothing about the subject and would have to look into it, but if so that would be absolutely sick.
@@robbylava it's not the same names but I think their many parallels in the myths
what are ur thoughts on troy total war saga
I don't know a ton about it, but from what I can see it seems like a colossal missed opportunity. I feel like they should have gone in a more Age of Mythology direction, funnily enough, with explicitly mythological monstrous and heroes rather than weird human pseudo-representations of them.
I think they literally just wanted to make kronos playable since he was the plot of the main game
The atlanteans are pizza. There are great pizzas, but there really aren't any BAD pizza.
I haven't had much chance to play the new Atlantians, but I think the favor generation change is a good idea, it keeps the "map control" idea of the original but makes it much more dynamic. Basically every game you would have up to 3 tcs unless someone managed to steal an extra, in which case it just made that already big advantage even bigger, while still being almost completely passive from a player perspective. At least with the Oracles hunting them down to suppress Atlantian myth units is a viable thing to do, and replacing them, while not expensive, is part of the macro that a good Atlantian player needs to manage. Gameplay wise it seems like a great change.
Wait, they changed the flavor mechanic? Thank GOD. Mechanically speaking that was always my least favorite part of the faction.
I haven't been keeping up with the beta stuff and don't know any of the changes they have made, could you give me a summary of what the new favor generation for the Atlanteans looks like?
@@robbylava Oracles generate favor. It's based on their LoS mechanic, as the LoS grows they get more favor generation. If other units are overlapping the LoS the rate goes down, this includes other Oracles. You also now have a cap on total Oracles.
Huge improvement. I don't know the details yet of course, but just on a pure flavor level I think that's a million times better.
I actually don't mind mythologies including modern ones. I guess being an atheist makes all legendary tales appear on samey level, to a degree. So the Atlanteans being a crossroad between Mesoamerica, Greece and Rome isn't as out there for me. Hell, we have a clash of histories with different time periods overlapping.
The real monstrosity would be a Mu or Lemurian faction, lmao.
It's a respectable take, but by that logic would you be okay with a Lovecraft faction being added? How about an Ancient Aliens faction?
If either of those feel wrong or out of place to you, I would really love to hear your thoughts on why that is the case for them and not for the Atlanteans.
@@robbylava Well I don't know about aliens per se, but ancient astronauts sounds like something on the level of what is done with Atlanteans. Mu and Lemuria kinda seem like a place you can stash such stuff into, if anything of the sort is added.
Although, wouldn't some mythical entities connected with the Moon or such technically count as aliens?
As for Lovecraft, lmao. I have a friend who's into his works and likes AoM so I really wanna hear his thoughts on the idea.
Tbh, I do think that the game does lean more towards implementing actual mythologies into its design and that overall the Age of series works within historical parameters. Atlanteans feel both strange and somehow fitting with how general view on it has evolved through different media. I guess I'm just not that overtly bothered by it due to the relatively light-hearted nature of the setting, what with pitting Medieval Vikings against Bronze Age Egyptians on equal footing while deities bring about world-ending events with their normal abilities. I don't know about which side I'd lean into more, personally.
@Crossil an extremely level-headed take as always, Crossil.
If there is something I don't like about The Titans expansion, it is its campain. It seems like a plot nonsense to me, especially because of the existence of New Atlantis. Firstly because this invalidates the ending of the original game, and secondly because it leaves you wondering what the hell happens to it in the future. Did it end up sunk like the original Atlantis? It's not known.
In my opinion it would have been better if the Atlanteans had stayed in Europe, perhaps in Italy or Iberia.
If Atlantis doesn't belong in Age of Mythology... unfortunately, they've been there since the start.
Unfortunate for sure, but that's never stopped me before!
Even if I know that 99% of what I propose when I talk about AOM or AOE2 is never going to happen, I still think it's fun and important to talk about.
LOL W TITLE BRO
Norse next?
I don't know about next per se, but I will definitely be going into detail about all the other pantheons! Might try to approach them piece by piece, doing gods first, then myth units, etc. What do you personally think would be the best way to approach future redesign ideas like this?
@@robbylava The Vikings are from the medieval age, not ancient times.
Damn, this was amazing. Loved everything! Awesome job mate. Have thought about this ever since I started playing the game so many years ago. Very well laid out, and pretty interesting faction proposal.
Really appreciate you saying so my friend! Plenty more to come in the future.
Maybe for a possible AOM2, but why not just respect how the game is, let's not change it.
The way I justify Age of Mythology Atlanteans is that it should be called more like Age of Ancient Fantasy
It really should be!
But as is, the game really is trying to represent itself as portraying mythology rather than fantasy. And as such I think we can hold it to substantially higher standards of accuracy and authenticity (at least in purely theoretical theorycrafting contexts like this one).
13:20 That would actually be dope
How exactly are the Atlantean building mesoamerican? I genuinely don't know how those looked aside from their pyramids.
The Tihuanacu/Inca architecture, specifically the mortarless masonry method, that required a lot of manpower to apply force (lift, push, pull) to those chiseled and sanded stones and fit them to specific spots with the tech they had
Atlanteans were such a lazy pick even back in the day. I mean, Atlantean Pantheon is part of Hellenic polytheism.
But I like their playstyle, especially Kronos rush
Your reworks are excellent.
I never played any expansion, only the original game back in the day. I never understood how the Atlanteans came to the game. I agree 100% with your statement.
I would like to know your suggestions for incoming pantheons now that the Chinese and Japanese are coming.
The story campaign's main character hails from the Mindanao-looking Atlantis and is named Arkantos, admiral of the Atlantean Armada.
Atlantis (before The Titans campaign) was but a very distant Greek city-state west of Iberia.
Atlantis after Gargarensis's defeat was partially sunk, and the survivors of the war a decade ago (one of the them the now adult Kastor) thought that the Olympian deities had betrayed them, while the Norse raiders were sacking the place. Theocrat Krios (unknown to everyone that he was possessed by a demonic minion of Kronos) led them to a Sky Passage that sent them to the land where derelict Temples of the Titan deities stood.
Really appreciate you saying so!
I will definitely be trying to tackle the Chinese and Japanese at some point, hopefully beating their official releases.
YES! Do the full remake please! Very nice video, subbed ;)
Really glad you liked it! Got plenty more in the works, so I hope you enjoy what's to come!
Godsdamn--this is amazing! You should do a video about a rewritten Titans Campaign
Thank you so much for saying so my friend!
We're writing the campaign is a pretty interesting idea... I feel like it might piss off a lot of people who are very nostalgic for the original.
While I'm not sure the idea if it's perfectly with the core focus of my channel, I think it's a really interesting proposal and I very much appreciate you being interested in hearing my thoughts on it. I will put it on the list for down the line!
I do enjoy the AoM content, and i do leave a comment!
And I do thank you for doing so! Heheheh
third
Or just call them Golden Race to fully anglicize it
You know Greeks and Norse are also Indo-European civs and their mythology descends from Indo-European mythology/religion right? So what good is there to rename Atlanteans into ''Indo-European'' lmao. I think rebranding Atlanteans as Indo-Europeans is even worser than the original Atlantean concept imo
I understand why they did not include the Romans. Considering that Roman culture took a lot of its inspiration from the Classical Hellenic world in terms of adopting their pantheon of gods and architecture, aesthetically they would have looked too similar to the Greeks. But instead of the Atlanteans, I think the fourth civilization should have been the Phoenicians. The Phoenicians were a distinct ancient culture with their own unique pantheon of gods, and they were contemporary to the ancient Egyptians and Greeks, who traded with them. In fact the Greek alphabet may have come from the Phoenicians.
Another thing to consider is that while the Phoenicians were a real civilization (one that was relatively pretty advanced for their time), their history is obscure enough to allow the devs to take some artistic liberties when it comes to adding more flair to the civ and ramping up its coolness factor, just like they did with the Atlanteans. Hell, I think they could even rename the Atlanteans to the Phoenicians and it wouldn't look too out of place. Lets say they replaced their gods, such as Gaia, Oranos and Cronus with Baal, Moloch and El, tweak the architecture a little bit and revamp their units and especially their myth units. Because there are a lot of similarities the Phoenicians share with the Atlanteans in the game.
For one, city states such as Sidon, Tyre and Carthage had strong maritime traditions with a huge emphasis on trade and opulent living. That would fit with some of the Atlantean buildings such as their manor houses and palaces. Also the city of Tyre apparently had fire ships, which they deployed to burn down Alexander's siege towers when he laid siege to the city. Granted those fire ships were likely manned by archers shooting fire arrows rather than flamethrowers, but hey I wouldn't be against them being like the Atlantean Fire Ships.
Phoenicians would have been a completely respectable pick. I would say Minoans are another great option that could have had Atlantis-esque aesthetics and offered enough creative liberty for the devs to mostly do what they wanted. So many missed opportunities!
You would do nicely as a dev in any game. As creative and passionate as it's needed, well done once again. Myself, I am a Gaia enjoyer.
Exceptionally kind of you to say my friend. She was always one of my favorites too heheheh
21 years too late son, go touch some grass.
Your point about Celts, Slavs etc... is off though. How many grounded myth units can you come up with? Even with Egypt you can see that the devs not only struggled but outright made things up. Giant Turtle? That is from Greek myth (Theseus). Petsuchos? Not a mythic unit. Wedjat? A god. Phoenix? Again, Greek myth (the Egyptian "equivalent" is a god that has no connection to fire or rebirth). Scorpion Man and Anubites? That is from the movies. Mummies too do not feature in actual Egyptian myth, that is a modern horror story trope.
You say the game is oversaturated with Greek myth. If it weren't for Greek myth, you wouldn't even have a game.
The Egyptian culture will certainly add Serpopards (half-lion, half-serpent), Griffons, Ammits (soul-eating demonic creatures that are 1/3 crocodile, 1/3 hippo, 1/3 lion), Naddaha (Rusalkas of the River Nile), Basilisks and Ushabti Constructs a la those in Warhammer Fantasy... and Apep
The Greeks will still have the Harpies, the Seirenes (Sirens), Erymanthian Boars, Trojan Sea Monsters, Teumessian Foxes (terrors of Thebes / Thivai) and the Charybdis
The Norse: the Draugr (make them more distinct than the Einherjar), Elven Archers, Lindworms (that are not worms, but two-legged serpents), Nøkkens (ambush riverine or lake spirits) and the Lyngbakr (Leviathan-like whale)
The Atlanteans: the Catoblepas, the Blemmyes (headless humanoids with eyes on their chests), Unicorns, Lemures (vengeful spirits), Laestrygonian giants and Orthrosses (Kerberos, but two heads)
@@royasturias1784
Egyptians:
Serpopards are
1) Not an actual mythical creature with specific characteristics you can put into a game. It does not feature in any Mesopotamian stories and is just there as a figurine they put on walls.
2) Actually a Mesopotamian creature.
Griffons are a Mesopotamian creature.
Ammit was a goddess, not a creature. It would be like introducing little Thors to the Norse roster, or Demeter to the Greek one.
Naddaha is modern folklore, not from ancient Egypt.
Basilisks are from Roman bestiaries, not from Egyptian myth.
Ushabti from Egyptian religion are nothing like in Warhammer. They were intended as little servants, nothing more. At most you could introduce them as an equivalent to Dwarves, but that would be a stretch.
Apep is a god, not a creature, see above.
As I write above you also have a ton of myth units in the Egyptian roster that are not actual myth units. Mummies as this "walking dead" thing do not exist in Egyptian myth, it is a modern invention. Anubites and Scorpion Men are from the Mummy film series, not from Egyptian myth. Even if one was to accept your suggestions (none of whom are valid for reasons specified above), they would still barely end up with a playable roster due to cutting all the non-grounded stuff.
Greeks:
Greeks have loads of myth units because Greek myth is the most comprehensive, especially when it comes to mythical creatures. Regardless potential Greek myth units are irrelevant to my point.
Norse:
Elven archers are not a thing in Norse myth.
@@johanlassen6448How else would the Egyptians get more myth units? Anubites and Avengers were like Lesser Daemons of Chaos gods, and they can't rely on such wights born of the chosen minor gods' likenesses forever. Avatars (aside from the Son of Osiris God Power) would be more of a Hindu culture specialty.
Lamassus, Simurghs and the Nephilim are off-limits.
Never must Elves fight with only fisticuffs, hence Elven Archers, I mean in the game, Cyclopes wield clubs, Minotaurs wield maces (or battle axes) when their horns aren't enough, Colossi have relatively big xiphoi, Centaurs and Medusae use bows, Satyrs hurl javelins, Valkyries carry lances, etc.
@@royasturias1784 I didn't say they shouldn't. Read my original post.
There is literally no indication that Norse Elves were warriors of any kind. You seem to believe that they are like Elves in LOTR. They aren't. Elves and Dwarves overlap in Norse myth. Hence why "Elven archers" is not a thing.
Gaelic mythology is something of a specialty of mine, and I am very confident I could get three civilizations worth of myth units out of that alone.
Commenters have similarly assured me that Slavic mythology, while less of a specialty for me, is in a similar boat.
Saying that without Greek myth we wouldn't have a game is somewhat odd to say and I don't really understand the point.
Pointing out that some cultures may well not have enough myth units to make a full roster, on the other hand, is reasonable to say. But I don't think that should discourage people from discussing those cultures as possible inclusions.
You're completely right though that the Egyptian myth units are nonsense. I really look forward to tackling those in a video at some point!
I'd rather just have the Romans.
Honestly, same. It would be awesome to see the Romans and the game someday, even if I would put them way the hell down the priority list, but they would be a damn sight better than the Atlanteans.
Your talk of adding a Proto Indo-European civ made me think of the Nazis' crazy ideas about their "Aryan" "ancestors." Imagine there being an "aryan" civ in AoM 😂
I think if Atlanteans changed into a Mesomaerican civ it would be better! Because their Llama caravan belongs to Incas, their buildings looks like Aztec/Mayan, some of their god powers looks like from rainforests for example venus flytrap and giant spiders. They could be stay as Atlanteans in the campaign. But in skirmish and multiplayer they should be a mesoamerican civ
tHe AtLaNtEaNs dOn'T bElOnG iN aGe oF mYtHoLoGy
Shhhhh... The developers are free to interpret the mysterious/lost island of Atlantis and its inhabitants in whatever way they like. Atlantis could have housed advanced tech and most splendid lifestyles that the other civilizations of the time couldn't comprehend, being the cheeky allegory of Athens (then the most prestigious city-state) about the blessings and the dangers of democracy in those times.
I disagree, This game is very much pop cultural approximations of mythology. The Greek myth units look like they walked right out of a Ray Harryhausen movie. The Rock is an Egyptian myth unit. The Norse have horned helmets.
Just because that's what it is now doesn't mean that's what it should be. I would argue that AOM dramatically misses out on its true potential when it plays into pop culture nonsense like this rather than trying its best to authentically fulfill its source material
Atlantis is first and foremost a myth, this is not something that is argued or pondered, since it's existence can't be proven. Also, its pantheon and units also make quite a lot of sense, the greek mythology has this unique and extremely distinguishable difference between the "current" pantheon and a supposed "old" pantheon, the titans. Splitting them in 2 and adding titans to the game fits perfectly to what age of mythology is all about. Especially since the greeks hated the titans and they were uniquely fleshed out. A roman civilization would make zero sense, however, only because their pantheon is way too similar to the greek one, even though the civ itself would be very cool. They might decide some day that they want to add them, but for now, the chinese and indian pantheons are way more interesting.
I responded to you in another comment thread just now, but just to make sure that thread isn't lost: I don't think that we can use the word "myth" in a colloquial sense to summarize what this game is about. This is a game about MYTHOLOGY, and Atlantis is absolutely not mythology. So apologies if I misled you by using the terms myth and mythology somewhat interchangeably, I felt like the context made it obvious what I was going for
I agree with you, but for me, F the Atlanteans and make them what they were originally intended to be, Romans. Murmillo, Destroyer, FFS... Gladiator and Legionnaire! Your point about period incongruency is dead in the water: Atlantis is Stone Age, Egypt is Bronze Age, Greece is mostly Iron Age, and the Norse are not even in Antiquity... So it is already a mess, no point in senselessly restricting the devs. Much better to enjoy each culture at their peak, when they are at their most beautiful, complex, rich...
That's quite literally the opposite of what I believe. I actually think that the AOM timeline doesn't matter whatsoever and fully endorse civilizations coming from different periods. Hence why my alternate proposal for the Atlanteans is themed around the proto Indo-Europeans, who literally existed thousands of years before the Egyptians.
Legitimately not sure where you are getting that from in my presentation. If you give me a timestamp that would be helpful
@@robbylava No, you're right. I misunderstood this part: 3:47 I understood that you were rejecting classical Rome in favor of an earlier period, but you were only talking about a visual overhaul.
Another thing that shouldn't be part of AOE2 DE, are trebuchets in campaigns with Mayans, Incas, Aztecs, Vietnamese, Burmese...
Or Mayans battling middle-eastern civs.