Why Antitank Rifles Were Not Sniper Rifles
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 พ.ค. 2024
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When talking about antitank rifles, I often hear people ask why such things were not fitted with telescopic sights and used as snipers' rifles. So today, I figured I'd take a few minutes to explain the various reasons why...starting with why Carlos Hathcock's scoped M2 Browning was not the same thing and does not apply to this question.
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"Why don't we use anti tank rifles as sniper rifles??"
"Because we're not shooting f*cking super mutants and deathclaws."
I'd be interested to see Ian's perspective on caseless/semi-caseless DMR's and sniper rifles.
Makes sense to me.
Thx for explaining in terms I can understand :-)
He answered his own question...those asking don't know what they are talking about...it's that simple.
Arguably, Fritz on meth or Ivan on vodka is pretty much just as resilient as super mutant.
I don't think it has anything to do with "hunting deathclaws" more so with " They they have a bunch of guns and ammo that are completely useless for their intended purpose now. Why not try using it for something else?"
Solution to inaccurate ammo: make the barrel long enough so that any shot is point blank
Make the barrel foldable (multiple times) for CQC
@@noobnoobyify That is not the solution
Now that's Thinking With Portals!
😂😂😂 could you imagine a barrel 300 yards long just waving around a battlefield hahahaha!
@@humoroustumor Lol yes
Next episode: why don’t real soldiers teabag dead enemies
Why soldiers aren't taught to jump randomly when under enemy fire
th-cam.com/video/0BcO2_CNi_k/w-d-xo.html
Master Gecko 117 Followed by “Why getting 25 confirmed kills doesn’t permit you to detonate a tactical nuke”
Why dont soldiers do crouch spamming.
im willing to bet a few have been teabagged irl, unfortunately
"Why you don't use a sledgehammer to kill a fly"
U cant...
@@lcomoonz9857 swing fast enough and you can
@@unsuspiciousdweller8967 break your body that is
@@unsuspiciousdweller8967 how fast?
Last time I tried that it was more of joking with friends... We all thought it was funny until it slipped and smashed my friend's phone.
Alright, but consider this: When the target explodes when you hit him, this makes him more dead than targets that have not exploded.
Ok, but you forgot that we have the GeNeVa CoNvEnTiOn
@@danielm.595 the what-now? the whositwhatsit?! whichama-call-it?!
@matt. Oh man. Yah got me at "Geneva suggestion"
@@thecourierNCR Geneva convention
@@danielm.595 If the target explodes it will die quicker than if it does not explode, making it more humane. Check mate, mountain people city agreement
Next episode:
Why snipers don't quickscope in real life.
Shhhh don't ruin the fantasies
They got dizzy after 360.
Mostly because the recoil will knock them unbalanced or worse the scope hitting your eye after firing
Not quick scoping but hip firing isnt nearly as inaccurate as it is in video games lol. Hip fire a sniper in a game and watch the bullet go straight left out of the barrel
Why 16'' naval cannons were not sniper rifles.
There is an answer for the question: "How long will the 1940s scope last on PTRD?". Soviet Main Artillery Department tested PTRD with sniper scope in 1943. The outcome: the rifle required zeroing after every shot, after 4-5 shots the scope "falls apart".
Lemme guess,It kind of just rattles until it all breaks lol
The scope on my 50 Beowulf shattered after about 10 rounds. And that is WAY smaller than an antitank rifle lol
Are you sure it's not the guys who put the scope on the gun?
@Dan "wiz" Parmenter at that point, is it really worth it? As opposed to taking a standard rifle and manufacturing it to finer specs?
No wonder the Soviet Union fell apart
I always found the phrase "anti-material rifle" terrifying. I'm made out of material😭
That's not the phrase though, it's anti-materiel, and you are not made of military equipment and supplies
@@Bladsmith LOL a GI is government issue. It is materiel
@@scottsanders4589 Wait... is that what the GI in GI Joe is?
@@Gakoranus lol yeah. So if you do something to hurt yourself that is destruction of government property. I was on a military base and the soldiers were sad because it was snowing and a lot of them haven't seen snow before but they weren't allowed to play in it so I played in the snow for them. I did a flip down a hill and made a snow angel. They could not stop laughing
@@scottsanders4589 That's awesome man, thanks for the bonus story lol. It's a good one.
This man needs a fireplace, pipe, and a big comfy chair
Have a watch of his QnA vids. Close enough.
He does have a big antique globe that I thought was there to lend a certain dignity to the setting. When he did his Christmas video and opened up the globe and poured himself a scotch from inside it I nearly fell off the chair.
And possibly a deerstalker as well
Not in this economy
And a smoking jacket, he's not a savage.
Another point is the concealment factor, snipers tend not to last real long when they are found, so having a 20mm Lahti the size of a Prius sitting out in the middle of nowhere probably isnt the smartest move
But then you have the intimidating factor: who in their rights mind would attack a position defended with a Lathi? Just dropping the bolt causes morale issues in the enemy, to say nothing of the incendiary rounds used to start forest fires. Truly a weapon to surpass metal gear.
Who said it would have to be used by sniper? The argument was just that it could be used as sniper (possibly by the anti-tank rifleman himself, like with the MGs with scopes). Besides, theoretically speaking, if you have 500 more meters of distance form the enemy (because you have a damn anti-tank rifle), someone could easily think that concealment would become less important (you'd be out of effective range of infantry rifles, and you'd be farther away to be spotted as easily). I'm not saying that it would work, I'm saying that someone who would think it would work would argue like this.
Well, I don't see a point of carrying a Lahti. In the Finnish Defence Forces, there's an AA machinegun 12,7 ITKK 96, which can be used agaisnt light vehicles and can punch through a MT-LBv or BMP-2 sidearmour.
The preferred rifle for counter sniping ...... is the 105 mm howitzer.
@@Aimless6 In Just Cause 1989 Invasion of Panama, US forces responded to a sniper using an AC130 Spectre gunship.
These people who want to put a scope on an anti-tank rifle to use it as a sniper are thinking too small. What we should do is put a scope on a Howitzer to use that as a sniper because overkill is underrated
lol a scoped schwerer gustaw
or scoped sturmtiger
or scoped Ratte
hans get the mop
Put a scope on an icbm.
Forgotten Weapons: Anti-Tank Rifles aren’t Sniper Rifles
Battlefield 1 and V Snipers: It’s free real estate
The Tankgewehr in BF1 never had a scope fitted. Players may have used it in anti-personnel role but that's their choice. BFV, however...
elisogay it’s a primary
@@sheikhfloppa7901 so what?
@@maxmavh3132 anti tank weapons are primary rifles for sniper characters in Battlefield V
Battlefield is so fucked
“The overkill doesn’t get you anything.”
Look, if Dorothy can kill a witch by dropping a farmhouse on her, I can kill zombies with a Vulcan cannon.
hell yea!
Well, whether or not that's overkill depends upon the size of the horde. It is theoretically possible to need that many rounds. The rate of fire is just a time saver.
Well . . this video is about using the role of a weapon correctly so you wouldn’t be way off to use a minigun to kill a large crowd of zombies. Just don’t put a scope on it.
@@petertheoneandonly9752 so like the gun seller in Death Road to Canada?
Peter theoneandonly what if I put a sniper scope on a sawed off double barrel shotgun
"An 8mm will still end a man's day just as well as a 20mm."
--"But, brah. If you don't kill him instantly then he's going to go into cover and just use a medkit to get back to full health!"
Yeah but anyone worth sniping has two health bars anyways.
You're never going to get them with one shot.
Idiot gameboys!
@@siorcymru7812 They're called idiot Nintendo 2(or 3)DS nowadays! ;)
@@siorcymru7812 th-cam.com/video/kXl-26hjO1g/w-d-xo.html
8mm WILL fk someone up , itll blow nice fist sized exit wound outta a torso youre pretty much dead if your hit in the chest
Huh. I always assumed that sort of question was more about "I want to shoot that supply truck from farther than the guards with normal rifles can shoot back."
Which is basically how we get modern anti-materiel rifles.
@@johanlundstrom1561 Those sorts of rifles found their use in assymetrical warefare though. Modern arms are insanely expensive, and insurgents, bar some rare opportunities, usually don't have the resources to field armoured vehicles, nevermind the expertise to even operate those things. Why would you fire at an pick up truck with some sheet metal as improvised armor with a javelin or a Panzerfaust 3? Barely justifies the use because you've just wasted half a million dollars on a car with a gun.
@@Donnerbalken28 Imagine thinking about how expensive what you use on the battlefield rather than make same statement out of logic.
I mean, why would you shoot an average truck with javeline ? if you can use agains something and when it will actually needed
@@PinkFoxzzz The chances of that actually being needed against insurgents is pretty small
I love how Ian goes to the question. He could simply say "No because you're dumb".
He explains in a wonderful way what was done and why you don't do it.
Very educational! Thank you.
I'm pretty sure that's because a large part of his audience comes from FPS gamers as well as gun enthusiasts who have practical experience with firearms
Also because it is not a stupid question, afterall, there are antitank rifles nowadays with sniper scopes like Baretts
they are nowadays designated as antimaterial, but back in the day they would be called antitank, cartridge is similar
so the question ie valid
"Overkill doesn't buy you anything."
Tremendous personal satisfaction.
@rustybuttpate Kind of fighting against your own argument there. "Dead is dead", dead from a .50 BMG or 7.56mm is still dead, so why use the .50 BMG, which is expending more resources (more expensive bullet, harder to carry around, harder to carry around the more expensive rifle for it, etc.) to accomplish the same thing, which we commonly call overkill.
@@Lowlandlord Considering 7.56mm isn't a real round, it ain't killing anything and definitely ain't killing anything as well as .50 BMG.
@Toucan • What are we betting on?
It terrifies the enemy and reduces their will to fight.
Overkill is used in most serious offensive barrages.
Best example was the dropping of MOAB style defoliant weapons in desert operations (Not much foliage to clear there)
@rustybuttpate military overkill is the term used when 10x the required ordinance is utilised to ensure that the target is very dead.
This happens more than you think, ask any mortar crew or artillery gun number.
Good example- drone fired hellfire missile on a single human target.
It would be a lot cheaper to just drop concrete blocks or use conventional ammunition.
But we really want those targets destroyed.
"...got bored and..."
Sums it up for anything cool that happens in the military.
coolkid they weren’t bored at all when they decided to try that. Quite the opposite, actually.
@coolkid on next episode : why we doesn't made tactical nuke into sniper rifle, we just need to put a scope on one of thoose.
Straka Zulu 4 words, “We/I got board and”
Nothing more dangerous than a bored soldier. Few things more creative, too, which doesn't help the first point any....
@coolkid I'm not convinced the Genie air to air nuke rocket wasn't. It's possibly one of the worst ideas for a weapon. Nuke rocket on a string.
No one:
Mobile game producer: Every bolt action rifle can be a sniper rifle
@fassenkugel thanks captain obvious. I was talking about game designer even put a big ass 20mm anti dinasour rifle as a sniper rifle
@hairy otter indeed the mp5 is a extremely accurate weapon and some guys on police special teams around the world really do use then as rifles. Google for images and you will notice that.
@hairy otter A Zip 22 with a scope = legendary weapon that can stop a whole army
Also, you can put a silencer on every gun, and the ammunition magically becomes subsonic, and combined with a scope...
Enter the scoped silenced MG42, the ultimate sniper gun. 900-1200 headshots per minute in the hands of a skilled player.
yea but every desert eagle has five times more impact than an 7.62 or 5.56
I knew a guy that took a log truck to go get his groceries.
I know the type.
Hell, in high school we had a kid drive his dad's deuce and a half to school.
Then again, my school had an official "drive your tractor to school day", so looking back it kinda fit right in
Next I'm going to use a helicopter in a drive through.
@@EchosTackyTiki I mean that's pretty damn cool.
@@FIRSTNAMELASTNAME-zt4kf Suffice to say he was pretty popular amongst the country boys.
Reminds me of the best line in Hunt for Red October:
“Could you fire an ICBM horizontally?”
“Sure. Why would you want to?”
That's pretty good but "vasili one ping one ping only" "captain" vasili please one ping" is my favorite.
Lot of good lines in that one.
But mine was always "I'm a politician, which means I'm a liar and a cheat and when I'm not kissing babies, I'm stealing their lollipops"
Seems about right.
"Most things in here don't react too well to bullets"
He didn’t slip on his tea, did he?
@@scottpaul7427 "I have to be careful about what I shoot!?"
*next up:*
Why Sniper Rifles Are Not Anti-Tank Rifles
Depends on the ammo and calibre they could be.
In ww1 special rounds were used in normal rifles as anti armour.
You sure it wouldn't be 'Why the 16"/50 Mark 7 and "40" (actually 46) cm/45 Type 94 guns weren't sniper rifles'? Yes, my gun nerd range extends to the naval end of the spectrum as well.
I can imagine just a 10 second video of a bolt action rifle shooting a steel plate and having it ping and leaving a tiny dent :P
@@drownsinkoolaid4203 You should probably be watching the armor piercing tests on Inrange then
Make this happen
TL;DR: It can't because of:
- Weight
- Accuracy
- Purpose
- Technology levels
Weapons back then aren't as multipurpose as ones today. It would be too expensive for someone who might die unexpectedly.
Also, you don't need an AT Rifle to kill a person. That's like using a grenade to kill an ant.
But is the ant dead.
@@D_U_N_E Asking the real questions right here.
that wasn't even a question XD
Kind of like using a Hellfire anti-tank missile to kill a single person (though, to be fair, it usually kills at least a whole family....and sometimes their neighbours).
But it works, the ant isn't recovering
“Do you want to see a magic trick, ladies and gentlemen, I will make this man, disappear”
SPLAT
and my own shoulder
Pop
Ian: Anti tank rifles simply don't work as sniper rifles
Battlefield players: 😳😮
Ian: Anti tank rifles simply don't work as sniper rifles
Battlefield 3 players: Fair enough. We'll just snipe with RPG's instead.
For me worth.
"The crazy guy running in the battlefield with a Boy's Anti-tank Rifle like a man with the ass fueled with cocain."
Mind you, we're talking about a series that had 7 classes in first game. And fuckers were so lazy nowadays that they couldn't make separate classes for GPMGs, AT rifles and mortars. Resulting in those having no drawbacks and in their dumb spam. Meanwhile you can't do shit to tanks in BF since 1)game doesn't support armor thickness and components on vehicles. You can't get an elevation from upper floor of buildings and just shoot into lightly armored engine compartment ventilation grates. 2)the game has no setting, neither for sides, nor for period. In comparison Post Scriptum had now introduced Battle for France where EARLY WWII equipement can be used. BF uses the same round based lobby system, but devs aren't interested in adding just a few extra models and limiting player equipement choices.
So unless Red Orchestra 3 comes out, Post Scriptum seems like best choice. I can't talk about Verdun and Hell Let Loose, haven't tried them yet.
@@TheArklyte verdun is great, though it is a far more accurate than battlefield so its combat is really slow. Haven't played hell let loose, as for my experience with post scriptum I was new to the game therefore I was booted from every match I found
@@TheTruth-xp2of hey, i can mount a scope on this slug shotgun!
Ian: "This is a big misconception by videogames"
Somehow Metal Gear Solid Peace Walker with Snake running around with a PTRD-41 came to my mind lol.
Spider Jerusalem Well, he _was_ fighting giant robotic armored vehicles from a relatively close range...
“Do something, Snake!”
The enemy was a bipedal tank...
Also it’s 1970s during peace walker. Optics has improved a lot since then. MSF also produce their own weapons most of the time. Theoretically they can put a high tech (for the time) optic on a specially made and accurized PTRS-41 with specially produced ammo
@@phucdinh1020 This makes me moist.
@@phucdinh1020 Big Boss' personal anti-Metal Gear PTRD-41 fielded with an 8x optics and armor-penetrating tungsten core bullets!
"Anti tank round will 3x normal damage"
_gives the side eye to Battlefield 1's anti tank rifle doing_ less _damage to a player than tank_
what?? something unrealistic in battlefield??? NO!!!!!
@@HECKproductions *_couldn't be_*
HECKproductions it’s beyond being unrealistic it’s just plain stupid
Actually, those are K bullets. The Tankgewehr is in fact a one shot kill.
I remember K bullets doing about the same damage
"Why Anti tank Rifles weren't snipers"
UNSC: Unfortantly for you, history won't see it that way
This is something I think about a bunch, incoming wall of text.
It makes sense that they'd become *way* more common as they were needed against shielded targets, but I do wonder if we'll ever see a pre-covenant war sniper rifle designed for softer targets. The closest we have is the DMR i guess? But it isn't a dedicated sniper.
They'd still be somewhat useful against grunts and jackals and I'm guessing they'd be much easier to carry around than the classic sniper rifle which seems pretty big compared to the average marine.
Then again, 500 years is a long time for lighter and stronger materials and armours to develop so
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@LouseGrouse but what matters is we're still using a cartridge from 1941 in 2552
@@AgentTasmania if it ain't broke, don't fix it. By God we will use our 500 year old cartridges and like it. We'll even do some impossible geometry and figure out how to fit 60 .308 rounds into an 8" tall box mag.
12.7 mm pistol cartridges that can also be fired accurately at what appears to be hundreds of meters of distance. 8 gauge Solcraft Shells which are currently illegal to produce to my understanding. Halo decided, "what if all our earthling guns were just ridiculously powerful.
@@sorrenblitz805 isn't the magnum using the same rounds as the assault rifle- 7.62
"The overkill doesn't buy you anything"
Well, yes. But big gun is big fun
And they make scenic big mess
@@thesturm8686 and they make any Friends of the Target Really reconsider why they are there
And they kick like mule.
Not when you have to carry it.
"There is quite no kill like overkill"
I guess snipers like having their shoulders intact, who’d have thunk it?
I think the question is more why didn't they shoot people with them instead of tanks. Not why didnt they shoulder them.
Thunk? Jesus
@@Krosis_ I mean... how else will you use "think" in passed tense?
@@Krosis_ its sarcasm moron, wooosh
@@finalcam1740 thought, just like the noun. But I see where you're coming from, if the past tense of drink is drunk then maybe think turns to thunk.
Sadly, English can be a bitch with its rules
Next episode:
Why you can't respawn in real life warfare.
Whaaaa? I didn't know this was YOLO run.
Most of the time shooting a person is enough, no need to cut them in half.
Even a Barrett 50 cal is considered anti material and not as precise as the lower caliber sized snipers used for anti personnel use.
Its effective out to 1800m. Name me one high powered rifle that accurate. I mean look at all the likes here lmao.
@@calebr908 The 338 Lapua is enough for a lot of situations, at 1800m you need to have a weatherstation, range measurement, a spotter and a couple of training shots to hit the target and that would still not be reliable.
@@larsjrgensen5975 Coriolis effect aswell right?
@@zdub8438 A regular dude wouldn't be carrying that sorta load for long. But sure! Why not. We're all Halo deep in inside.
@@calebr908. 416 barret, . 408 chey tac,. 338 lapua magnum
"But that one Russian guy put a scope on his anti-tank rifle!!!" The gamers cried. Yes, but he was shooting at things like tank hatches and pillbox slits.
And he still dropped the idea because the ammo wasn't accurate enough.
Shooting at pillbox slits was done with iron sights.
Anti tank riflewomen from Polish People's Army independent female battalion were doing just that. Seems that around 1943 this became one of main tasks for AT riflemen/women is Soviet styled infantry units.
Zaitsev is said have used PRTD mounted with a telescopic sight to do this, maybe to be able to aim from longer range with a bit of stand off? Anyway, he determined the guns and ammunition weren't accurate enough to justify it so I he gave up on the idea.
@@wh8787 Soviet infantry battalion in 1943 had AT rifle platoon as one of its internal support units. From what I managed to find it was 9 rifles and it was kept till end of war.
They didn't have to kill German machine gun crew by shooting through pillbox slit, neither at 1 rifle to 1 machine gun crewmen ratio nor even to kill any machine gun crewmen. If they suppressed machine gun pillbox long enough their job was done.
But successful hits, probably owning more to chance/skill combo on shooter side than to gun accuracy were done.
Sure, but my point was specifically about Vasily Zaitsev adding a telescopic sight to a PTRD with the intention of firing through machine gun firing slits in pill boxes and the like. I'm sure Soviet infantry used the frankly devastating fire power of the PTRD and PTRS for destroying and suppressing all kinds of targets outside of tanks. My point was that when an attempt was made to use one in a precision role, it wasn't precise enough, or not precise enough to warrant using a telescopic sight.
I haven't had my hopes and dreams crushed this hard since I found out Barrett 50s weren't sub-MOA
MOA?
Minute-of-Angle, it's the measurement used to describe a rifles accuracy.
"Minute of Angle (MOA) is an angular measurement.
A MOA is 1/60th of a degree.
1 MOA spreads about 1″ per 100 yards. (actually 1.047″)
1 MOA is a different size at different distances, 8″ at 800 yards is still just 1 MOA."
Quoted from www.nssf.org/shooting/minute-angle-moa/
The comparison of the ballistics of 50BMG ball to 308 ball is depressing as well, but as noted Hornady has the solution
That's becasue of the intended purpose of some of that ball ammo. 50cal and 308 intended to be used in machine guns has much looser specs than the same rounds intended for any other application.
@@bmstylee Even with the A Max, I've only ever heard of 50's doing MOA, and never seen it. Not saying it has never happened before, but it's likely very, very rare.
Imagine a timeline where JFK was headshot by an AT rifle.
the car would be gone too
Pretty mind blowing idea
So, no head
Literally « BOOM! Headshot! ».
@@lebiggay7144 mind blowing idea.
I just LMAO!
Hey, that's a question I asked myself when playing Call of Duty as a teenager.
I figured out the whole "too heavy" justification by myself but the rest is pretty nice
This argument always reminds me of that scene in "Braveheart" where the one guy throws a boulder, misses, then is taken down by a small rock.
In general, not a good idea to use Braveheart as an example in an historical argument....
@@josephdriesenga2730 Okay but it works here so why don't you go away?
@@CarrotConsumer F R E E D O M ! ! !
@@crazypath573 Well if you include his heart achieving freedom from his ribs?
@@josephdriesenga2730 But not in this specific example, so that they made an entertaining movie and ignored lots of history is really not relevant at all.
9:35 "That's what we should cycle back to.. circle back to." Hahahaha he uses gun mechanical terminology in his regular speech. Gun Jesus speaks the language of firearms
Yeah he went full-auto there.
Hes speaking the language of gods.
And the people said "Amen"
When I first watched this video it really cleared things up for me because most of my concept of Sniper Rifles had come from video games where everyone is running around with a Barret M82 and now just thinking what trying to use that reliably for instance on a long range interdiction type mission with a gun like that would be like by the time you're back you're gonna need back surgery.
"Most of these were single shot"
Japanese soldier: laughs in
type 97
And for those who still want to argue tune in next week when Ian pits his No. 4 T off against Karl and a Boyes in a 2 gun match
I'd watch that for sure
That being said, how would anyone mount a scope on a Boys? Off center like a bren sight i suppose...
There would be no rifle targets left for the other competitors. Karl and Ian would win by default, lol!
@@thesturm8686 Or wielding a rail on the side of something as a modded pso.
Oh this would be enjoyed though
You're telling me that American snipers didn't run around on Iwo Jima with Boys anti rifles fitted with 6x scopes to take out German soldiers fighting on the Japanese side?
You mean French Resistance sniper women?
What
BF5 in a nutshell
MinarchistAnglo
Oh, you mean the time when the Japanese pushed the American all the way back to Washington DC?
Nicolas Tohá it’s a dumb game that went to hell for the ability to put women and non-historical people into the game. Why? For a “more fare stand point”
0:31 "...and I think it is largely fueled by video games-"
Or, as the physicists of yore would have it, *thought* *experiments.*
Ian, I doubt you're going to go back to this video and see this one comment out of 3k+, but
Please do more videos of you spreading knowledge open form like this. I love hearing someone talk about things they know alot about, and something they're passionate about. I've seen your videos talking to cops about how to see and understand markings, and how knowledgeable you are, and also in videos where you're talking about shooting shotguns, where you are admittedly not an expert at all. Love them both, but I want more of these kinds of videos!
"Largely fuelled by video games,"
Words well said.
Yep. Mostly by battlefield lol
Largely fueled by video-games... BFV, smh. You ever see how fast they run with those things?
Company of Heroes 2 - the British sniper has a Boys.
Goddamn spunkgargleweewee ninnies.
Andrea Laborde Post Scriptum has a realistic AT rifle. I understand the market for a less realistic game, though.
N C-K But the main role of the British sniper is to slow down vehicles and when it comes to anti-infantry the british sniper is the worst sniper
@@shrek4949 True, as an in-game mechanic it had a place, but it always seemed an outlier of the units in COH2, shoved in to fit what the devs wanted and totally out of place. Some bloke in a Ghilie suit running around late-war Western Europe with a Boyes like some modern day spec forces op with a Barrett always annoyed me
People don't have hitpoints, they're made of tissue and some stiffer bits, a well placed shot is a well placed shot.
People don't have hitpoints or shields.
@@gopherlee9427 For now
there are people who survived what would kill other people couple times over. If that is not the sign of a HitPoints i dont know what is.
Humans have hitpoints... but most humans have only 2-5 hit points. and most guns deal 5-10 dmg
@@richardlyman2961 hah. you do not have 100 hit points. Your armour has. but still armour has weakpoints.
@Bill Reynolds i was not talking about this specific ammunition. As i was saying: "Humans have hitpoints... but most humans have only 2-5 hit points. and most guns deal 5-10 dmg"
and you telling me that "tHiS AmUniTiOn WoUlD kIlL yOu" is actually agreeing with me. So if anyone is fos it's you. All i said is that some himans survived things that would kill other humans multiple times over. I never said what that things were.
The weight issue was something I had thought of myself and that on its own was enough to satisfy this question for me. That being said, I hadn't thought of things like ammunition and trigger pull and it was very interesting hearing those dissected at length.
"The overkill doesn't buy you anything."
Tell that to Burt, the last time someone did his reply was:
"When you need it and don't have it, you sing a different tune." :D
Overkill doesn't buy anything, because it doesn't exist.
Logistics does, though, and that bill is a bitch to pay.
Burt Gummer is my spirit animal.
From the "Tremors" movies, right? Good times. Available on Netflix right now by the way.
the last time I was this early the Archduke was still alive
igor šajinović do n’t worry . Due to navigation error his limo will stop right in front of him.
Too soon.
That's an obscure thought, but I like it !
@@Girandhistacos That was over a hundred years ago
"Overkill doesn't buy you anything"
Sure it does: I can carry a second primary weapon
That thing you said at around 10 mins really hit me. That's exactly why more games should have tanks and different types of damage.
However at the same time you gotta make sure it can't be exploited too much. In Valkyria Chronicles 2 for instance the only things that can damage a tank on the offensive are mines and certain bosses. Also because the game is turn-based you can just use the tank to rush all enemies that can damage it. Fun yes, challenging no.
"The overkill doesn't buy you anything."
"But I want a gun so powerful that their relatives and friends will feel it when I blow them to pieces and destroy their body and soul in one fell swoop."
"They don't do that Timmy, you'll have to wait for the WWSD rifle for that."
There is no such thing as 'overkill'. There is only 'open fire' and 'reload'.
Steyr constructed an AMD that, to my knowledge, is very precise.
Mean seeing your Mate turn into a red fountain next to you whilst a piece of his skull almost takes your eye out Would be quite effective at making you Reconsider the choices you made to stand there
I understand that Korean dictator, whatever his name is, likes to execute people with oversized guns.
Viz's Spoilt Bastard by any chance? "Mummy will buy you one darling!"
"They only have to hit a tank the size of... well... " *crap, think of something the size of a tank!!!*
ELEPHANT!
A van.
A Panther! oh shit wait...
A TANK!!
A mouse
Great explanation. I'd love more of this kind of content.
As a gamer and a 10+ year veteran. I often have this kind of discussion with my 'gamer only' friends. Who have never experienced war, nor touched a real gun. And they just don't want to hear, the arguments against the 'tropes', they have grown up with in games and movies.
Thank you for your service Ian.
Excellent video. Well researched, cogent point of view and very well communicated.
Next up: Silencer don’t make you silent
they really dont, with a semi-auto you really dont run into all the issues a full auto will have, but you need the right pressure while still maintaining a subsonic velocity to cycle the firearm and not have the super sonic crack of the round be heard. if anything civilian use of suppressors are better suited for saving your ears later in life.
Lol
@@Kalezian Well that's the problem with semi-autos and even if you get them to cycle with subsonic, the mechanism is still making a lot of noise. But with right kind of ammo on a single shot gun you can absolutely make it silent enough that it's not gonna be identified as gunshot by people nearby.
unless you use subsonic munition
It's a suppressor
"FN Scar are known to be pretty brutal on optics"
I'm on my third Vortex and had to send a Trijicon back for repair.
There are reasons you can get a pretty good deal on a used one, once you scrape the dust off it. :P
Damn!!! Never thought I would see the day a vortex breaks from .308 recoil!
Apparently Primary Arms 1-6x does well on the SCAR. Its a budget optic but they are pretty tanky and they can take a serious beating. Garand thumb put 3000 rounds through a scar with a PA optic on it without losing zero
@@ScottKenny1978 its not the .308 recoil that kills them its actually the opposite of recoil if that makes sense. Optics are reinforced to handle recoil to the rear but the heavy bolt on the SCAR slams forward pretty hard when it chambers a round and its the forward movement that kills them.. SCARs have killed much better optics than Vortex's so fear not lol
@@flighttherapybullisticfpv133 oh, I know vortex are inexpensive, but they do have a reputation for being just about indestructible. And yeah, no rifle scope likes a big forward impulse. Put a good rifle scope on an air rifle and you will kill it.
Weapon dealer: How much do you want to explode your human target?
Buyer: Yes.
Thanks again Gun Jesus for a concise and informative explanation of an interesting topic. As always you are very enjoyable to watch on a subject Matter I find fascinating.
*AN ANTI-TANK RIFLE IS NEAR YOUR LOCATION*
ME: "Oh boy, here I go killing again!"
Bitches love cannons!
I feel like you could have just said, "because it's too heavy you nerd."
And that is why he has a youtube channel with a good amount of followers.
@naruto tricked me sry You clearly aren't the target demografice of this Channel.
@naruto tricked me sry the target demographic for this channel are people who want the ins and outs of the history and how the weapon has been used and also how the weapon works. People want in depth talks and discussions to fully understand the weapon probably due to being a collector or are interested in purchasing said weapon
He DID say that, just at length and in scholarly detail.
@naruto tricked me sry Instead he made a video that enables us all to explain that to anyone else. You somehow mad about that?
Another great and thoughtful video! Keep up the great work!
As far as I remember, there was attempts to set up PU scope on PTRS/PTRD (I don't have links, that discussion was long ago in LJ). Well, Ian had absolutely correctly described the results - zeroing usually went to shit right after first shot, and scope did not last long enough to make it worth.
I think people get the idea that an anti tank rifle can be used as a sniper rifle from stuff like the m82 (though that's an anti material rifle) and from pictures of conflicts such as the Syrian civil war as well as from media.
You CAN use a AT-rifle as an sniper rifle. The question is for how long.
The barrett has absolutely been used for anti personel roles. You dont need moa or even 2 for killing people.
You technically aren't supposed to shoot people with those.
Author made non sequitur logical fallacy. His reasoning and argumentation did not followed that people who ask this question means. Well, maybe he just commited straw man. First, he is talking about heavy machine guns when question was about anti tank rifles. Later he thinks that people mean that we should replace all sniper rifles with anti tank rifles/heavy machine guns, because they are supposedly better. This is over exaggerated nonsense. The argument is: can these guns be made into effective sniper rifles/guns. The answer is yes and armies are using them as such. Ironically author had proved that he was trying to disprove.
@@REgamesplayer The Question as asked was not "CAN AT Rifles be used as Sniper Rifles" but "why WEREN'T AT Rifles used as sniper rifles" with answer being that anything that an AT rifle can do in the Sniper Rifle role can be done just as well - if not better - with a much smaller, cheaper and lighter purpose built sniper rifle.
The Red Orchestra games might be one of the few I've seen get AT Rifles right, and I still see so many people trying to use them like a Sniper Rifle.
Well..they do work like that.
I somewhat main AT rifles, together with the MBK H.
They are unpractical, too loud, awkward to carry and usually a normal bolt rifle works best...but seeing a guys head explode in the distance, nothing beats that feeling.
Oh and also being able to wreck tanks is neat
The problem with RO games is that guns are too accurate IMHO.
Not really. Guns are more accurate than presented in mainstream games.
Why uses inaccurate ones?
In Germany we had a lot of controversy about the G36 getting to hot after a few thousand shots and engaging beyond 500m (?).
Wasn't even what they are designed to do, if you need to fire more than 60 shots u have an MG, and they only swayed away a few centimeters.
@@FirstDagger Isn't so much the guns that are too accurate, it's just that the guy shooting them is very good, probably much better than most people would be in the same situation. Pretty much no matter what's happening, the in-game guy is still gonna snap those iron sights into perfect alignment, with very little sway.
@@jasonvorhees1795 ; The problem with the G36 is that the polymer melts and your gun has a permanent shift. The other problem is that Bundeswehr guns are shot to hell.
Aiming in games makes guns in these more accurate than you would be able to aim IRL.
Ian: Long, logical argument on why anti-tank canons weren't used as designated marksman's rifles.
Random Vietnam Soldier: Eyy! I hit the dude! :D
I learn a lots from this guy
Thanks for your time
Next time On things that don’t work they way you want them to with Ian
“Why bolt action drum mag fed anti tank rifles aren’t effective main battle rifles”
Did you just sum up the Warhammer 40k Bolters?
War would be a lot cooler if things just worked the way we wanted them to.
@@BloodyAltima No because bolters aren't bolt action. Except the stalker
There is a story of polish Home Army using one of Ur anti-tank rifle as a sniping rifle. They killed a German officer with a rifle that could stop Panzer III. Imagine the mess.
🤯.
head exploded? or just gone...
There used to be a picture online (probably still is if you look for it) of an Iraqi whose head had been exploded by a presumably .50 round. Blood and brains everywhere and his head had peeled open
@Nasim Aghdam🐿🥧❤
@@visionist7 there is video from Afghanistan of 50BMG sniper kills, it doesn't just make heads go away, it rips bodies in half.
And after WW II because Ur became obsolette against tanks it was used against people by african rebeliants, but not for long because of its uniqe ammo.
I had always wondered this tbh. Thanks for a great video 👍
Lahti L-39 was sometimes used in a sort of sniper role targeting enemy pillboxes or dugouts, especially during the trenchwar period of 1942-1943.
It was also used in a counter sniper role with exploding rounds.
The lahti L39 was later used as an anti-sniper rifle.
It was also used once to shoot trough the murderholes of a bunker while staying out of the range of the russian machine guns (shots were taken at about 1400meters I've read)
They shoot the sniper while he was sipping his tea behind the fridge in his barrack
Anti Materiel rifles are still actively used in anti-sniper roles.
There was this pesky sniper who always hid behind small holes he drilled in concrete walls. Tanks and aircraft weren't authorized to fire so command decided to lure him out by sending us in armoured vehicles. In the meantime a camouflaged special forces unit trained with Barrett M82s waited for intelligence on his whereabouts. The rationale was that the chance of hitting him with a normal marksman/sniper rifle was too slim, so they specifically requested anti-materiel rifles. It wasn't a direct hit, but from the video we were shown afterwards you could see how the .50 BMG bullet shattered the concrete wall in his face and sent him running. He lived, but I guess he won't be sniping any time soon.
@@Benedictus899 Damn, he got away...
37mm Bofors-Tampella was also used for that.
In both cases the idea was to get near misses with frag rounds
L39 took standard 20x138 AA round , so there was wide variety available.
@@JanoTuotanto Yes that's why the Lahti was used for Anti Tank, Anti Air, Anti Sniper and Anti Material
Polish wz. 35 anti-tank rifle - "Ur".
Until now, in order to penetrate the armor, the shells had to be not only harder than it, but also as massive as possible. Anti-tank weapons were therefore getting bigger and heavier. Poles followed a different path. It turned out that armor penetration is not necessary! An ordinary lead projectile fired at very high speed hit the armor plate, "stuck" to it and gave it all its energy. On the other side of the armor, the stresses were so great that the armor broke and formed a swarm of debris that injured the tank crew. The bullet itself, after hitting the armor, literally melted in the air - that is, it sublimed and turned into gas.
Historical fight: Probably the most famous episode in which model 35 took part was the battle of Zaboreczno, when it appeared as a sniper rifle. The target was a German officer commanding an attack on guerrilla positions. One can only imagine what the effect of hitting a man looked like with a speeding soft piece of lead, flattening on impact. This officer lost whole head.
The attack broke down, and the Germans were convinced that they were fighting a unit of Allied paratroopers armed with weapons of an unknown type.
The poles didn't invent the concept of HESH shells lmao.
@@CassiusGreen
I did not write that it was the Poles who invented HESH ammunition. Simply as one of the first, they used a deformable shell without an explosive insert in such a small caliber. W-Z 35 fired 7.92 ammunition, but longer. The rifle itself is not much bigger than the usual Mauser Kar. 98.
Note that both the Soviet PTRD and German rifles of this type are more than twice as large and heavier and they use anti-tank, "hard" ammunition.
What I meant more about was that in favorable conditions, however, you can use the anti-tank rifle as a heavy sniper weapon in a limited way.
Of course, there are other examples of using other weapons as snipers. For example, British and Australian soldiers used the excellent BREN rifle, which was extremely accurate for LMG - all too much. One bullet was inserted into the chamber, and an observer was sitting next to the shooter, and giving the correction, because the shooter himself could barely see the target and shoot at the coordinates. Where Lee Enfield was unable to report, there BREN proved himself as an improvised sniper.
Spot on. Ian covered everything I initially thought of when I saw the title.
You’re right about the video game theory. I couldn’t tell you how many conversations I’ve had about this because of “call of duty” . Call of duty world at war , sniper classes had very basic bolt guns like the enfield etc. that would take usually two shots to kill the enemy but when you got to the highest rank you got the PTRS41 unlocked . Big long monster of a gun with a huge scope that would take down enemies in one hit usually. Then other call of duty games stuck with that progression, beginners got the Remington 700 and the L96a1, but then higher ranks got the Barret and the cheytach intervention.
I see all you youngins talking about Battlefield in the comments, well...I'm gonna go ahead and blame Call of Duty: World at War. This game introduced me to the PTRS-41, which it categorized as a "sniper rifle." Fortunately I was a nerd even back then, so I looked it up and quickly saw it was an AT rifle and not a sniper.
Ah yes the WaW PTRS-41, fun in the campaigns, annoying in multiplayer, and the bane of your existence on any zombies map besides Der Ries
@@dfwai7589 at least it's not the kar98k
@@WelcomeToLaMatanza At least it's not a Springfield*
Fixed that for you
Nice profile pic, we were all dying to know your politics
It did bonus damage to tanks in that game....
Besides, real old school people remember the release version of the game, that laying down while using a bipod gave you infinite ammo for your lmg's. Killed a tank with the MG42 once.
In WW2 a guy tasked with running communications wiring from point to point named __________ Schroeder came over a hill overlooking a town where there were not supposed to be germans. In his memoir titled “1000 days in Olive Drab” (one of the best books ever written but equally hard to find) he says they waited for me to get about halfway down the hill before they started to fire at me and they were shooting their artillery at me, straight at me. The bullets of their 155mm gun were going so fast they’d hit the dirt skip up the hill and explode well behind me, but that didn’t make it any better finally as one of them tore through the dirt right next to me i tripped and fell into a ditch sending my helmet bouncing down the hill, they stopped firing, must have thought they’d got me and I’m laying in this ditch just praying to god they don’t send patrol out to make sure... ...i waited for nightfall then got the hell off that hill”
So the other problem with shooting someone with a mega bullet is making sure you actually hit them
nice on
The hell were they doing direct-firing 155mm at a single guy?!
@@TimperialBroadcastingAgency probably bored?
@@ieaton7422 That's a fair response.
@@TimperialBroadcastingAgency that's the point of using anti tank as sniper...
They probably thought they decapitated the guy when the helmet shot flying...
I had actually wondered about this issue myself so I appreciate the information. Thank you.
I would like to add that anti-tank rounds depend on high momentum to penetrate armor. For that reason you want to be reasonably close because supersonic rounds loose velocity quickly. Hence iron sights are sufficient. If you want to hit a tank from a distance use a tank or other artillery. People that think regular sniper rounds are insufficient: go watch a gel test of a 308 or above fired from a rifle (e.g at Brassfetcher). If one thinks they could survive that, they must be Superman.
In the video he talked about why anti-tank rifles weren't used as sniper rifles to kill infantry, but I am interested in the question why anti-tank rifles weren't used to fire at armour from a larger distance using scopes, and I am guessing the momentum would be a problem too, though an in-depth explanation would be interesting.
@@PutesValdovas the scope is also a massive fail point here
5:48 "A tank the size of...a tank" was what you wanted to say, right?
Ah yes, the tank here is made out of tank
Tanks in the interwar years where AT rifles were common weren't nearly as large as WW2 or modern tanks, hence the need to differentiate between sizes.
I went to a gun shop once on the way to a 3 gun match, and they had a Boys rifle converted to 50 cal using the barrel from an M2. Not that I could afford it, and it wasn't even for sale anyways, but damnit do I want something like that. The Boys rifle just has such a good Æsthetic
Man I love your videos, thanks for this gem :)
Such a good explanation combining fact, personal experience and real life practicalities.
Yes and no, a few points he made are irrelevant for sniping, and he forgot a few pretty relevant points. First of all, it does not matter that you cannot carry much ammo. A sniper does not get in prolonged firefights. He gets there, takes his shot and tries to get home. Maybe he fires a second or third shot. So a sniper does only carry a few rounds any way.
He also forgot about what happens after the shot. That sniper wants to get home after his shot, and an anti tank rifle makes itself KNOWN when shot.
Also the impression I get from some cases is that using a gun way overpowered for the task can actually result in less damage than another that's properly scaled for the intended target, because too large bullets at high velocities have very high inertia and will disperse relatively little energy on the target while it overpenetrates. Notable case being Saburo Sakai, who got shot in the head with a 50 cal, managed to regain enough conciousness to fly over 40 minutes back to base, get patched up and ultimately died of old age
Shot in the head with a .50 and survived?! Holy shit, that could buy you some leverage in a bar fight.
Sakai was shot in the head with a .30 cal out the back of a sbd dauntless dive bomber. If he got shot in the head with a 50 he wouldn’t have a head. Go watch the video of the guy who shot over the head of a deer with a Barrett M82 and still killed it. Don’t underestimate the power of Ma deuce.
Weird enough wikipedia says it was a 50 cal, but historynet confirms it was a 30 cal that clipped him. Guess it just goes to show that you always gotta double check your sources.
I agree that using a gun not suited to the task at hand isn't the best idea though.
"No Armor is Best Armor" does not apply to fleshy targets.
@@krtacct I'm calling bullcrap. Demolition Ranch tried and couldn't even knock a house of cards
*Me an intellectual who used the Tankgewer in BF1* “I don’t think so”
This is just a joke lmao
Video games taught me two things:
1) .50 AMR are superior sniper rifles
2) crouching behind cover heals all wounds
@@0ptera 3) I should take the highest firerate weapon so that I kill them in seven shots while their five to me are no big deal.
Adam _-Canadian I have good aim in BF1 I still play it so I can do a lot with the Tankgewer
Adam _-Canadian I guess but I do tho lol
I want to see a guy go into military bootcamp and when he goes through the rifle course, just start jumping all over the place like a toddler high on sugar inbetween flopping prone.
Advanced tactics that.
I was watching an interview with a spec ops sniper that served a few tours in the middle east. His standard rifle was chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor. I do not recall the exact rifle offhand other than it was bolt action. He liked it simply because it was good enough to get the job done and easier to shoot at long range than some other ammo types because of its speed. Seemed reasonable to me.
I like this channel. Informative and non threatening
In the NRA’s National Firearms Museum, they have a PTRD with a .50BMG barrel and an Uberti scope that was, according to them, converted and used by a US sniper in the Korean War.
Can confirm, have seen this aswell, its fuckin neato
Piotr Grzelak No idea, but it has no muzzle break or shoulder padding, so I can only imagine how awful it would have been to use
Many an unofficial modification has been possible, when a friendly armourer is available.
Yup I was thinking of that gun the whole time Ian was talking waiting for him to mention it
@@piotrgrzelak2613 someone "found" a PTR, "acquired" a spare .50 barrel so it would use available ammo, and had a friendly engineer or armorer put it together.
"Getting hit with a regular rifle, will end your day." I come for the firearms, I stay because of Ian, he can sure paint a picture, can't he..
Well, to be pedantic, Ian said to be hit with a rifle, which is one thing (and will hurt), but being hit with the bullet fired from that rifle is another thing entirely.
This is one of the best videos for showcasing Ian's encyclopedic knowledge.
Ah yes, the early concept of *B A R R E T*
*Guy with the Barrett at the gun rally*
Am I a joke to you?
Dear Gun Jesus, in Polish we pronounce "SZ" (as in MaroSZek) like English "SH", not like "CH" as You said in this video :) Greetings from Poland.
See Peter Sennich's classic book, "Limited War Sniping" from way back in the Seventies.
The next step after the "tweaked" M-2, was the "hot-rodded" Boyes and PzB 38's and GrB 39's. The usual chambering was the classic.50 Browning. Ammo development followed the rifle development.
Not sure when these things really took off, but Mr. Barrett seems to have taken up the challenge fairly early.
It was U.S. civilian long-range shooters like the "Fifty Calibre Shooting Association" did a significant amount of work on barrels, recoil-absorption systems, (muzzle-brakes, buffers, etc.), bullets (like machine-turned, solid bronze), precision reloading dies AND suitable presses.
Those pictures of the M2's with the spotting scope reminds me of an anecdote he told me during his first tour of Iraq in 03~05 time frame. They didn't have the mounts for the thermal scopes to mount to the m2. So he mounted this massive thermal sight to his m4 and used that to spot while he was manning the m2 on guard duty. The picture of him with his m4 with this monster of a sight by comparison is kinda funny.
Video game enthusiasts: hey. this would be cool in real life
Logistics: *exists*
HAHAHAHA So people involved of moving things from one place to another have a problem with unrealistic games.
I think you mean logician XD
If my memory serves correct, Ian got the PTRS and PTRD mixed up in that the PTRS is the semi auto, PTRD is the single shot
Trash Man they’re technically both semi-auto, one is just a single shot semi-auto
but it still use the recoil to open the action and recoc the gun, so it's a semi auto single shot rifle?
@@fabiovarra3698 Thats actually not a bad point. Does a gun have to actually rechamber a round itself to be automatic, or does using recoil to open, extract, and cock the gun still count?
@@greybayles7955 Since full auto is chamber and fire, semi-auto is chamber, I vote for half-semi-auto haha
Artillery pieces are considered semi auto if they eject and open the breech for the next round just like the PTRD
Once again a very informative video, - and thank you for that.
I had ideas of why the armies didn't reissued the rifles as sniper rifles, so it was satisfying to have the ideas confirmed by a scholar and professional.
I'm sure though that a few owners have tinkered with their old anti-tank rifles and custom crafted the key parts (or made a mock-up) and attached that special scope on some special rig. Just to prove you, the historians and the purists wrong.
Great video!