i bought my pro 400 like a month ago after having eyed an appartamento for the longest time. The extra features for less money than the appartamento just made it an obvious decision. They're both great looking machines so you couldn't go wrong either way there. But honestly in my apartment the Profitec feels large enough on my counter, i'm glad I don't have an even larger machine. I still stand by my purchase and would recommend the pro 400 to anyone.
Boiler heat up time will be around the same. You’re going to want to turn on any machine 15-20 minutes before you want to make a drink in order to fully warm the group, portafilter, etc. Boiler heating time is not the limiting factor to getting your first drink :)
I'm a proud Appartamento owner. To me the APP is like an old Alfa Romeo, it has so much ora surrounding it. Also being an espresso machine technician, I love it's simplicity and I'm more than able to compensate the lack of features with my knowledge about coffee. In the other hand, I think the new machines that comes out like this Profitec will probably kill the APP in the future if Rocket dosen't add more features to it, at least for the price they go for now. Very great review!!
Good comparison with the Alfa:-) I'm totally agree. If you know your APP and if you have some technician skills you can do top coffees for the next 30 years with it. The lack of feautures is the advantage for many years of running without problems.
Got the Pro 400 two months ago and absolutely love it. Have it paired with a Profitec T64 grinder, getting amazing espresso. I always use the pre-infusion and really helps get perfect stream with bottomless portafilter.
I did look at Profitec Pro 400, Apartmento, Lelit Mara and also La Scala Butterfly Lever Deluxe. La Scala Butterfly is the one not getting a lot of reviews on the internet. I eventually bought La Scala Butterfly. La Scala has PID for the boiler but lacks PID for the grouphead, in term of adjusting brew pressure it is similar to Apartmento and the brew pressure is also sat at 11 bars similar to Apartmento. Somewhere down the track I will be adding a flow control device and thermometer to monitor the brewing temperature.
I had Appartamento back in 2016 and profitec pro 400 for around a month now. As they are around the same price now, so I think pro 400 beats the s**t out of Appartamento. It wins at adjustability, pressure correctness out of the box, compactness and build quality (yes, because of the cup grail). The look of the side panel, I think it's ok on Appartamento. Profitec's interchangable disc is also pretty cool. I did change mine. Most important thing: because you can control so many factors of the brewing process on pro 400, the espresso itself is better than Appartamento, because you will find the coffee you are looking for by adjusting the settings. You cannot have it on Appartamento, or it's difficult. If appartmento is $300 USD less, I would consider them equally competitive.
Excellent video and it was the same conclusion I came to back in August 2022 when I was literally doing the same due diligence on both of these machines. I opted for P400 precisely for the factors you mention, the automatic pre-infusion and temperature control were tie breakers that helped me decide. Before I had the P400, I had a different much more basic E61 machine, let me tell you the pre-infusion and temperature settings are game changer, at least for me.
Great review and comparison! Been using Appartamento for over 4 years now and still like the look. I adjusted brewing pressure, which was originally set at around 11 bar..., and replaced with walnut knobs, so it's just simple and nice looking mahcine that does the job done consistently. For the look and simplicity, it would still go with Appartamento but I paid a lot less so it would be a tough call.
Thanks for this concise presentation. I think the Rocket may have been an innovation at some point, however lacking a brew pressure gage, easy OPV control and temperature control just won't do in the current market. To stay relevant, Rocket will have to catch up. Looking forward to their next hx-machine!
No not really, at the time of release there where several machines that basically offered the same, what it mostly did, is exactly as he pointed out where a slightly change to the aesthetic with its circular pattern on the side panels, it was fundamentally just an older model in a newer refreshed design but in terms of technology it offered nothing new.
Hello and thank you for your always detailed videos. I own a MaraX and am thinking of purchasing either the new Rocket Appartamento TCA (no need for cooling flushes and temperature control, as I was told by the dealer) and also another improved pro is the complete new design. The other contender would be the Profitec 400. Would you recommend either one for one espresso and latte a day? Thank you again.
@@LifestyleLab_ Originally, I wanted to purchase the Appartamento, loved the looks and the reviews, but the need for the hassling cooling flush nade me favour the Mara X, which had good reviews also (although not the greatest looks, in my humble opinion). Now, in hindsight, I've had two problems with air locks and the water pump and Lelit has a terrible service in Spain. After hearing about the new Appartamento TCA, which lacks the need for a cooling flush and its more "cool revamping", made me think about selling my MaraX and purchasing the Rocket. I'm aware it has not more features tan the Lelit, but still. I haven't made my mind up yet, but since there isn't a single review out there (it's supposed to be out on Aug. 2nd) i checked to see what your take on this was. The Profitec 400 was the other option too
It’s going to be tough to beat out the Rocket in terms of sheer looks, and there’s nothing wrong to choose it for that reason. The upgrades in the TCA should bring its performance more in like with the Lelit and Profitec
I watch all your videos. Thank you so much for your great contribution to the understanding of the finer points of speciality coffee preparation & gear.
I love how eloquently Profitec tucked away the features that the Appartamento is sadly missing. I love my Appartamento, but its simplicity really is my biggest gripe with the machine. It sure does look beautiful though, and it certainly is capable of pulling good shots.
Another good video. But I have so many questions: The temperature "control" of 3 settings, is it for brew temperature or is it for steaming temperature? Also, is the Rocket a HX machine? And does it need a PID?
Temp control is for steam temp, and therefore brew temp (it is a HX machine after all, so these are connected Both are HX machines. Any machine would benefit from a PID, no machine NEEDS one
What is the E61 group to drip tray height difference between both machines? It looks like there is more room underneath the Pro 400 for cups than the Rocket Appartamento, it this real or is this my misinterpretation?
Great review. You briefly explain everything for both machines. Appartamento is definitely a beautiful machine compared to Pro 400. However when it comes to features, Pro 400 nailed it.
Thanks for this video. Are there overheating problems if I leave the Profitec 400 on for many hours, or can I easily make my cup of tea, even if I left the Profitec on for 5 hours? (Sorry for my bad English)
Many thanks. with Lelit Mara this doesn't solve, does she stay warm? I'm confused about what to get between Profitec Pro 400 or Lelit Mara X. Which would you get?
@@LifestyleLab_ I understand that the quick flush with Mara causes the temperature to increase too much in 4 or 5 minutes, while it is the opposite with Profitec pro 400, is this correct?
Thank you for the great review. I was looking to get the pro 500 with pid but I think the toggle switch on the 400 will work just fine and save some money. Thank you
People who spend just a couple researching machines before purchases will buy the appartamento because it's beautiful and priced relatively well for what looks like a premier espresso machine. Those who spend or even researching before purchase will discover that the appartamento is priced so well due to its utter lack of control features and overall quality. I mean, you could go from the appartamento to the profitec for a 20% pay increase, and the machine in virtually every capacity/metric is tenfold better. The apartamento is however beautiful.?. Most naive first time Machine buyers are likely to regret having bought an appatamento down the line when they upgrade, rather than some of the other machine brands that people will remain loyal to. There's a reason for this as people begin to learn more and more about the overall process, and that's not to say the apartmento makes bad espresso either. It has the potential to make great espresso actually. But for examples like Profitec machines for just slightly more money as detailed above you will have greater control, quality, consistency of your espresso shots. Consistency for good results is the name of the game for people who plan to test different variables such as pressures, grinds, temperatures, etc also. You take a huge cut towards consistent results whenever you forgo a dual boiler machine in exchange for a heat exchanger. You forgo quality and longevity when you exchange steel boilers for copper ones. The list goes on.
You’re going to want to turn on any machine 15-20 minutes before you want to make a drink in order to fully warm the group, portafilter, etc. Boiler heating time is not the limiting factor, generally around 5-6 minutes on most machines
You did it again; I just purchased the Profitec 400. After my Breville Dual Boiler did its final lap, a few weeks before the 2-year warrantee expired. I learned a lot from that machine, mostly about my preferences and the user experience I seek. Being new to this hobby, I assumed the extensive features would appeal to me. Over the past 2 years I realized I wanted something more minimal with specific features. More importantly which features I didn't use. I am excited about the next phase of this hobby in the E61 world; maybe in 10 years or so, I may get a spring level or wait for you to review a spring lever. Please don't do a review of a spring level just yet ;-)
@@tofuman9526 the mara X would have been a good choice I didn't consider it. The Pro500 with a PID and electronics is what I am moving away from. I my ideal machine is a lever.
Great review though I think this undersells the profitec. The build quality of those is amazing, every single time i have used a profitec I’m reminded of how awesome they feel to work with. So it’s not really a “value” play - i think it’s a straight up better built machine that is easier to use, and the rocket has the looks. Rocket has to up their game.
I owned the mirror box E61, there is very little innovation going on and the potential is about the same and largely been that way the past 8-10 years. On all you can easily add the flow control. Reality is that the main difference is if there is profiling capabilities (on most done with gear pump) a noisy vibration pump or rotary pump or if it’s a SB, HX or DB. All that said open the hood and Profitec/ECM is noticeable more well laid out, uses steel boilers and much easier doing maintenance on then the rest, the Italian machines might have a certain charm on the outside(if your not grown away from the look) but the attention to detail is just not the same there, while the ECM/Profitec is much more throughout the machine. If I where buying one again I would definitely choose the machine where every small detail is thought through, even the detail you don’t see. And although the Italian manufacturers is less of a birds nest today them when I owned one, I do think there still some room for further improvement.
Upgrade your grinder first if you’re looking to improve the coffee quality. However if you just need more steaming capacity either of these are a great choice! A dual boiler is really not necessary for home use unless you’re literally trying to serve 10 lattes back to back to back on a regular basis
Great review of these two great machines. For my next machine i am sort of thinking dual boiler. but im not really sure i understand how dual boilers compare to heat exchange machines. do you have a review comparing the two types?
A dual boiler will have better thermal stability. A HX machine, even with PID, can overheat water it left idle. They heat brew water by running a closed tube through the steam boiler (only boiler). So if the tube sits idle, the water inside will eventually reach steam temp or close to it. A dual boiler has exactly that, dual boilers, one for brewing and one for steaming. So temps can be controlled individually and accurately
My sage bambino has done me well for several years. But its on its way out and I want to move to thr next level. The pro 400 is top of my list at the moment. Great comparison. The apartmento was also in my top 3 along with the Lelit Mara X. Recently, the VBM Domobar has got my interest
I appreciate this and many other videos of yours! I am curious why I am struggling to find videos of experienced users USING the Go or 400 from Profitec! I'd love to see the actual workflow of either machine to help guide my decision.
Check out my video of the Rancilio Silvia for a full workflow shot on a single boiler machine. Pro 400 has whatever workflow you like because it’s a heat exchanger and can brew/steam at any time or simultaneously
Very simple reply opened my eyes to realize I didn’t need to see the exact machine in use. I landed on the PP400 with flow control. I’m not going to lie, the learning curve is substantial compared to my now sold barista express! Biggest challenge is steaming milk. The wand doesn’t stay put, which I’m thinking is a fault in my machine. Also struggling to brew without heavily relying on the OPV. Also might be user error. Will report back after some practice/experience! Oh, and temperature SEEMS hot. Idling for ~5min leads to a need for close to 10 seconds of purging steam from the group head before pulling a shot.
Have you had any experience with the profitec 600 & 500? If i went E61 i think those 2 would be my picks. Preferably the 600 for the temp stability. Honestly if i dont go with an E61 its the BDB. My only problem with e61 is heat up time. But when i picture a machine in my kitchen its always that E61. So nice. I need to pull the trigger already its just a big investment for me. The e61 also has the build quality & dependability. The bdb has features. I would rather buy once cry one but i dont know.. Help....lol
You’ll be very happy with either of the Profitecs mentioned. If you always imagined an E61, then go for it! You won’t regret it for a second. If you’re a buy once guy, I’d recommend those over the Breville
I love your work...than you! I had an Appartamento for about 6 weeks before it malfunctioned. While that could happen to anyone, I was frustrated enough by the entire ship/repair process that I switched manufacturers and retailers. I bought a Profitec Pro 500 (the 400 didn't exist yet) and have been thrilled with it. I must say that I disgaree about build quality. For me, the Profitec fit and finish blows away the Rocket. Forget the cup border (which is a total headscratcher), the drip tray, knobs, side paneling(and everything else I can think of), are much tighter on the Proiftec.
Could you also add the "flow Control" to the p400? This would Enhance the pre infusion even further and would seal the deal for me (coming from a flair and seeing what flow control can do)
yes you can, and actually Whole latte love is selling it currently with flow control added for free. Atleast I believe they still are, they were when I bought mine like a month ago.
@@itsjrbro I love it. Compared to those others, i don’t know much about the ascaso, I see others say the Mara x is better with temperature control, but personally I don’t really like the look of it. I upgraded from a gaggia classic pro so it was still a huge upgrade. The build quality is fantastic, its pulled some great shots, I really have no complaints with it.
Great review. Will the Ascaso line up of espresso machines make their way in the Lab for review in the future? I not only enjoy your reviews but trust your opinions as well! Thank you so much! Cheers!
Sounds like both are single boiler machines. What does the heat exchanger function mean to the user experience? From the Profitec site you linked, they say it can brew and steam at the same time. Will that be at the correct temp for each function, given it has a single boiler? How long do they take to warm up from off to ready to brew?
That light blue disks look like two big eyes 😅 is this the design intention? If have to choose one, will surely pick profitech pro400. Your review videos will be another level if you add some B rolls 🙌🏼
Another great video! I’d definitely go with the Profitec. How would you stack up the Letit Mara X v2 against these - seems more comparable to the Profitec but looks wise the black Mara with the wood accents beats the Rocket and Profitec imo. Cheers.
i was on the same debate but the build quality profitec >>> mara x.the adjustable pressure valve up top was the deal maker for me when i bought my pro400
Great vid! Helping to make my first big espresso machine purchase a bit easier. Anyone have experience or comparison to MaraX from Lelit? Seem very close.
Lelit is also a great option and can offer some additional features at a similar price point. Trade off will be in terms of build quality. Depends what areas are higher priority!
@@LifestyleLab_ Thanks for the quick reply and the info! Profitec's 3 year warranty is pretty tempting over the 1 year from Lelit. Did you find that you had to do many cooling flushes with the PP400 after bringing it to heat and back to back shots?
Stay away from Rocket. I fell for the sexy Italian machine. The first experience was with a well taken care of used. It lasted about a year and a half then the internals sparked like the fourth of July! Since I was still smitten I bought a new one, after almost two years overheating began! I loved the instant steam pressure of a heat xchange machine but I think the demand has affected quality. For the money paid on these units, I'm expecting at least four years of no major troubles.
Uggh...what makes this a really hard decision IMHO is to me, Profitec looks more plain/industrial, especially the 500. Both the 400 and 500 knobs look really cheap. And the coloured discs?? Come on.... The looks of the Rocket tug at my heart... :). That said, I see idrinkcoffee in Canada is dropping the Rocket line...
I thing wrong with going with your heart! But yes, technically the Profitec does have a pretty big leg up. Maybe take a look at Ascaso if you want that design flair?
The apartemento was a disappointment for me. Especially for the price. Sent it back. :( I don’t understand the popularity. No pid. The Pro 400 is a bump up, but should get the 500 atleast for the timer/pid. The 700 is pricey but dual boiler makes it nice for hot cocoas for the kids without interfering with espresso making. All in, I went with the 700. Have considered stepping down to a Ecm Classika pid machine. For the size to price, it may be worth it.
The only reason why you would buy the Rocket is if you wanted a simpler machine with less electronics to go wrong. With the Rocket you can add a group thermometer so you can do precise cooling flushes and still get top notch and consistent shots. Having said that the Proftec's interior layout is actually much better, plus it's more compact. For me I'd go the Profitec Pro 400.
Apartamento - a lot of customers has issues related with overhiting … it just look great and only that . As you better know it has a factory issue . So , please confirm this issue and not continue to promote Rocket Apartamento
They both look like a plumber’s nightmare. If you go to an espresso cafe, the machines don’t look like that. They look sleek and purposeful. I just don’t ‘get’ the style choice with machines like this, especially with that chrome mirror finish reflecting back all that plumbing! It’s like looking at the Medusa of espresso.
This is a certain type of machine, it uses a very classic and standard group head called the E61. The cafe machines you are referring to use a different technology. If you go to Italy, you’ll see more classic machines like this very often
Ascaso home machines use thermoblocks, which come with their own sets of advantages and disadvantages. Very fast heat up, inexpensive, but are very prone to scale buildup, hard to maintain, and can struggle with thermal stability
@@LifestyleLab_ I’ve been using a thermoblock device for a couple decades. maintenance is easy. I descale every few months, and have never had an issue with it. Temperatures are predictable. The Ascaso comes with a PID, which makes temperatures even easier to deal with.
When very successful companies in commercial or high end markets choose to make a consumer or home use product that is thousands of dollars. Then choose to do something which I consider financially pretentious from the accounting department, like put a $0.05 piece of plastic on the top of it, to then have a proper metal one designed and manufactured you have to purchase separately, is absurd to me and a complete deal breaker. When I choose to spend thousands of dollars on a machine it will be from a company that understands completely finishing their products before selling them is more important than trying to profit another 100$ from your customers. Adding a piece to a machine like that completely degrades the whole concept of going all out on everything else in the machine. Companies have to seriously stop with the nickel and dime your customers tactic when it would seriously cost them nothing to just use the parts they already have for the "higher end" machines such as knobs and things like that. Why go get a completely new part made of lower quality, when you already have the exact same thing of a different material in your production? The only answer to me is marketing and being able to tell your customers you're saving money with having plastic portafilter handles and knobs on the machine.
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I love watching reviews of machines I'll never be able to afford.
Never say never!
@@LifestyleLab_ 😄I atually just got a Rancilio Silvia as my first machine and I'm in love!
Bang it on the karna spread out the cost 🤣
Great first machine!!
Agreed I,m the same
i bought my pro 400 like a month ago after having eyed an appartamento for the longest time. The extra features for less money than the appartamento just made it an obvious decision. They're both great looking machines so you couldn't go wrong either way there. But honestly in my apartment the Profitec feels large enough on my counter, i'm glad I don't have an even larger machine. I still stand by my purchase and would recommend the pro 400 to anyone.
Read my entry. You made the right choice. The Rocket is a counter hog.
Could you be kind enough to tell me what is the heating up time. Considering pro 400 however the pro 300 has 2 boilers and heats up in 6 to 7 minutes
Boiler heat up time will be around the same. You’re going to want to turn on any machine 15-20 minutes before you want to make a drink in order to fully warm the group, portafilter, etc. Boiler heating time is not the limiting factor to getting your first drink :)
I'm a proud Appartamento owner. To me the APP is like an old Alfa Romeo, it has so much ora surrounding it. Also being an espresso machine technician, I love it's simplicity and I'm more than able to compensate the lack of features with my knowledge about coffee.
In the other hand, I think the new machines that comes out like this Profitec will probably kill the APP in the future if Rocket dosen't add more features to it, at least for the price they go for now.
Very great review!!
Totally agree, love my Appartamento all the same even with newer machines coming out 🙌
Good comparison with the Alfa:-) I'm totally agree. If you know your APP and if you have some technician skills you can do top coffees for the next 30 years with it. The lack of feautures is the advantage for many years of running without problems.
If you own an App then you need to be a tech because I owned two and would never go through what I did again. All blow.
Got the Pro 400 two months ago and absolutely love it. Have it paired with a Profitec T64 grinder, getting amazing espresso. I always use the pre-infusion and really helps get perfect stream with bottomless portafilter.
I did look at Profitec Pro 400, Apartmento, Lelit Mara and also La Scala Butterfly Lever Deluxe. La Scala Butterfly is the one not getting a lot of reviews on the internet. I eventually bought La Scala Butterfly. La Scala has PID for the boiler but lacks PID for the grouphead, in term of adjusting brew pressure it is similar to Apartmento and the brew pressure is also sat at 11 bars similar to Apartmento. Somewhere down the track I will be adding a flow control device and thermometer to monitor the brewing temperature.
Y
Thanks for the video! Currently considering the Profitec - will you be doing a similar head-to-head with the newer Rocket Apartamento TCA?
I had Appartamento back in 2016 and profitec pro 400 for around a month now. As they are around the same price now, so I think pro 400 beats the s**t out of Appartamento. It wins at adjustability, pressure correctness out of the box, compactness and build quality (yes, because of the cup grail). The look of the side panel, I think it's ok on Appartamento. Profitec's interchangable disc is also pretty cool. I did change mine. Most important thing: because you can control so many factors of the brewing process on pro 400, the espresso itself is better than Appartamento, because you will find the coffee you are looking for by adjusting the settings. You cannot have it on Appartamento, or it's difficult. If appartmento is $300 USD less, I would consider them equally competitive.
Excellent video and it was the same conclusion I came to back in August 2022 when I was literally doing the same due diligence on both of these machines. I opted for P400 precisely for the factors you mention, the automatic pre-infusion and temperature control were tie breakers that helped me decide. Before I had the P400, I had a different much more basic E61 machine, let me tell you the pre-infusion and temperature settings are game changer, at least for me.
This is the most useful, most unbiased review ever. I was deciding between these machines and you made the choice clear for me. Thanks!
Glad to have been of help for you!
Appreciate the positive feedback
Great review and comparison! Been using Appartamento for over 4 years now and still like the look. I adjusted brewing pressure, which was originally set at around 11 bar..., and replaced with walnut knobs, so it's just simple and nice looking mahcine that does the job done consistently. For the look and simplicity, it would still go with Appartamento but I paid a lot less so it would be a tough call.
I guess you still need a cooling flush before pull a shot , correct ?
Thanks for this concise presentation. I think the Rocket may have been an innovation at some point, however lacking a brew pressure gage, easy OPV control and temperature control just won't do in the current market. To stay relevant, Rocket will have to catch up. Looking forward to their next hx-machine!
No not really, at the time of release there where several machines that basically offered the same, what it mostly did, is exactly as he pointed out where a slightly change to the aesthetic with its circular pattern on the side panels, it was fundamentally just an older model in a newer refreshed design but in terms of technology it offered nothing new.
Thx for the review - pity you did not pull any espresso shots to taste BUT I decided to order the Profitec as an early Xmas gift !
Please review the new lelit Mara x. (Ideally in the white color :)
Hello and thank you for your always detailed videos. I own a MaraX and am thinking of purchasing either the new Rocket Appartamento TCA (no need for cooling flushes and temperature control, as I was told by the dealer) and also another improved pro is the complete new design. The other contender would be the Profitec 400. Would you recommend either one for one espresso and latte a day?
Thank you again.
I do recommend both of those machines, but am not sure they will off you much advantage over the Mara X. What makes you want to move away from Lelit?
@@LifestyleLab_ Originally, I wanted to purchase the Appartamento, loved the looks and the reviews, but the need for the hassling cooling flush nade me favour the Mara X, which had good reviews also (although not the greatest looks, in my humble opinion). Now, in hindsight, I've had two problems with air locks and the water pump and Lelit has a terrible service in Spain. After hearing about the new Appartamento TCA, which lacks the need for a cooling flush and its more "cool revamping", made me think about selling my MaraX and purchasing the Rocket. I'm aware it has not more features tan the Lelit, but still. I haven't made my mind up yet, but since there isn't a single review out there (it's supposed to be out on Aug. 2nd) i checked to see what your take on this was. The Profitec 400 was the other option too
It’s going to be tough to beat out the Rocket in terms of sheer looks, and there’s nothing wrong to choose it for that reason. The upgrades in the TCA should bring its performance more in like with the Lelit and Profitec
Which ECM machine compares to the Profitec Pro 400? Thanks.
I watch all your videos. Thank you so much for your great contribution to the understanding of the finer points of speciality coffee preparation & gear.
Thanks for tuning in Philip!
I love how eloquently Profitec tucked away the features that the Appartamento is sadly missing. I love my Appartamento, but its simplicity really is my biggest gripe with the machine. It sure does look beautiful though, and it certainly is capable of pulling good shots.
how about lelit mara x and profecto pro 400?
The only negative I'm seeing on TH-cam about the Profitec is the drip tray. There is a lip that makes getting the water tray out somewhat hazardous!
Are there any mods that can be done to the Rocket, such as temp controls, or adjustable OPV?
Well said and well balanced. Keep up the awesome reviews! I plan on hopefully buying the pro 400 next spring.
For the price of the Appartamento, you could get the Profitec Pro 500 with PID
Thank you for review. What about maintenance, cleaning and descale? Thanks.
Cleaning will be identical between the two. Standard back flushing, descaling not an issue because you should be using proper water :)
Thank you for your reply, but what does it mean proper water? BR.
Water that is not too hard, so that it doesn’t scale the machine boilers
@@LifestyleLab_ Hi. I'm from Israel. We have hard water. If descaling procedure not provided, this is a problem. BR.
You’ll have to buy bottled, or do some kind of filtering. Or, use a water mix like Third Wave Water which is added to distilled water
Another good video. But I have so many questions: The temperature "control" of 3 settings, is it for brew temperature or is it for steaming temperature?
Also, is the Rocket a HX machine? And does it need a PID?
Temp control is for steam temp, and therefore brew temp (it is a HX machine after all, so these are connected
Both are HX machines. Any machine would benefit from a PID, no machine NEEDS one
@@LifestyleLab_ That is an interesting answer that clarifies a few things but raises others. Will ask them in a subsequent video. Thank you!
Can you do a comparison video with Profitec 400 vs Lilet Mara X?
What is the E61 group to drip tray height difference between both machines? It looks like there is more room underneath the Pro 400 for cups than the Rocket Appartamento, it this real or is this my misinterpretation?
What is the grinder that is shown for few seconds mid video?
The Niche Zero
Exactly what I needed to watch, thank you for sharing and now I just have to come up with thr money for the 400.....sold sold sold.
The Profitec Pro 400 is really similar to my Lelit Mara X! Great deal for the money.
Which is better?
Any chance to have a comparison between P400 and Rocket Appartamento TCA ?
Still trying to get a TCA in studio
Great review. You briefly explain everything for both machines. Appartamento is definitely a beautiful machine compared to Pro 400. However when it comes to features, Pro 400 nailed it.
depends on the type of stainless for the boiler. Most machine makers don't discuss what alloy they even use.
Thanks for this video. Are there overheating problems if I leave the Profitec 400 on for many hours, or can I easily make my cup of tea, even if I left the Profitec on for 5 hours? (Sorry for my bad English)
Any machine will require a quick flush of the group head if left on for that long. No big deal :)
Many thanks. with Lelit Mara this doesn't solve, does she stay warm? I'm confused about what to get between Profitec Pro 400 or Lelit Mara X. Which would you get?
@PasqualeGalasso Lelit more features, Profitec better build quality
@@LifestyleLab_ I understand that the quick flush with Mara causes the temperature to increase too much in 4 or 5 minutes, while it is the opposite with Profitec pro 400, is this correct?
Thank you for the great review. I was looking to get the pro 500 with pid but I think the toggle switch on the 400 will work just fine and save some money. Thank you
I have a lelit marax v2 what do you think would be a good upgrade in the future if I ever wanted to get a new machine?
Something with flow control like the Bianca :)
@@LifestyleLab_ Can't you retrofit a flow control on the Mara X as well?
Can any e61 be upgraded with the flow control knob? That’s one aspect of these machines I’m unsure about.
Pretty much, it’s a standard group. These two are actually sold with flow control included at the Profitec link above
Any plans to review the Move?
I would love to, but no firmed up plans yet
People who spend just a couple researching machines before purchases will buy the appartamento because it's beautiful and priced relatively well for what looks like a premier espresso machine. Those who spend or even researching before purchase will discover that the appartamento is priced so well due to its utter lack of control features and overall quality. I mean, you could go from the appartamento to the profitec for a 20% pay increase, and the machine in virtually every capacity/metric is tenfold better. The apartamento is however beautiful.?. Most naive first time Machine buyers are likely to regret having bought an appatamento down the line when they upgrade, rather than some of the other machine brands that people will remain loyal to. There's a reason for this as people begin to learn more and more about the overall process, and that's not to say the apartmento makes bad espresso either. It has the potential to make great espresso actually. But for examples like Profitec machines for just slightly more money as detailed above you will have greater control, quality, consistency of your espresso shots. Consistency for good results is the name of the game for people who plan to test different variables such as pressures, grinds, temperatures, etc also. You take a huge cut towards consistent results whenever you forgo a dual boiler machine in exchange for a heat exchanger. You forgo quality and longevity when you exchange steel boilers for copper ones. The list goes on.
Could you tell us what is the heating up time.
You’re going to want to turn on any machine 15-20 minutes before you want to make a drink in order to fully warm the group, portafilter, etc. Boiler heating time is not the limiting factor, generally around 5-6 minutes on most machines
@@LifestyleLab_ Thanks for your reply
Funny I was JUST looking at both of these machines last night
any chance for a profitec pro 700 review?
You did it again; I just purchased the Profitec 400. After my Breville Dual Boiler did its final lap, a few weeks before the 2-year warrantee expired. I learned a lot from that machine, mostly about my preferences and the user experience I seek. Being new to this hobby, I assumed the extensive features would appeal to me. Over the past 2 years I realized I wanted something more minimal with specific features. More importantly which features I didn't use. I am excited about the next phase of this hobby in the E61 world; maybe in 10 years or so, I may get a spring level or wait for you to review a spring lever. Please don't do a review of a spring level just yet ;-)
why not Pro500? why not mara X?
@@tofuman9526 the mara X would have been a good choice I didn't consider it. The Pro500 with a PID and electronics is what I am moving away from. I my ideal machine is a lever.
@@awint123 As an owner of the Pro800, I can relate:)
@@tofuman9526one day I will move up
Wouldnt mind a comparison between the profitec 600 (dual boiler) and the profitec 700 (dual boiler)
Great review though I think this undersells the profitec. The build quality of those is amazing, every single time i have used a profitec I’m reminded of how awesome they feel to work with. So it’s not really a “value” play - i think it’s a straight up better built machine that is easier to use, and the rocket has the looks. Rocket has to up their game.
I owned the mirror box E61, there is very little innovation going on and the potential is about the same and largely been that way the past 8-10 years. On all you can easily add the flow control. Reality is that the main difference is if there is profiling capabilities (on most done with gear pump) a noisy vibration pump or rotary pump or if it’s a SB, HX or DB.
All that said open the hood and Profitec/ECM is noticeable more well laid out, uses steel boilers and much easier doing maintenance on then the rest, the Italian machines might have a certain charm on the outside(if your not grown away from the look) but the attention to detail is just not the same there, while the ECM/Profitec is much more throughout the machine.
If I where buying one again I would definitely choose the machine where every small detail is thought through, even the detail you don’t see. And although the Italian manufacturers is less of a birds nest today them when I owned one, I do think there still some room for further improvement.
Should I invest the money and change my dear Gaggia Classic Pro? What are your thoughts? If I want to change it, shouldn’t I go for a dual boiler?
Upgrade your grinder first if you’re looking to improve the coffee quality. However if you just need more steaming capacity either of these are a great choice! A dual boiler is really not necessary for home use unless you’re literally trying to serve 10 lattes back to back to back on a regular basis
Cannot agree more...for home use , a good HX machine is more than enough. Trick is with a good grinder
Great review of these two great machines. For my next machine i am sort of thinking dual boiler. but im not really sure i understand how dual boilers compare to heat exchange machines. do you have a review comparing the two types?
A dual boiler will have better thermal stability. A HX machine, even with PID, can overheat water it left idle. They heat brew water by running a closed tube through the steam boiler (only boiler). So if the tube sits idle, the water inside will eventually reach steam temp or close to it.
A dual boiler has exactly that, dual boilers, one for brewing and one for steaming. So temps can be controlled individually and accurately
My apartamento burned out the control module, just after it was out of warranty
My sage bambino has done me well for several years. But its on its way out and I want to move to thr next level. The pro 400 is top of my list at the moment. Great comparison. The apartmento was also in my top 3 along with the Lelit Mara X.
Recently, the VBM Domobar has got my interest
Thank you for another great educational video.
I appreciate this and many other videos of yours! I am curious why I am struggling to find videos of experienced users USING the Go or 400 from Profitec! I'd love to see the actual workflow of either machine to help guide my decision.
Check out my video of the Rancilio Silvia for a full workflow shot on a single boiler machine. Pro 400 has whatever workflow you like because it’s a heat exchanger and can brew/steam at any time or simultaneously
Very simple reply opened my eyes to realize I didn’t need to see the exact machine in use. I landed on the PP400 with flow control. I’m not going to lie, the learning curve is substantial compared to my now sold barista express!
Biggest challenge is steaming milk. The wand doesn’t stay put, which I’m thinking is a fault in my machine. Also struggling to brew without heavily relying on the OPV. Also might be user error. Will report back after some practice/experience!
Oh, and temperature SEEMS hot. Idling for ~5min leads to a need for close to 10 seconds of purging steam from the group head before pulling a shot.
Have you had any experience with the profitec 600 & 500? If i went E61 i think those 2 would be my picks. Preferably the 600 for the temp stability.
Honestly if i dont go with an E61 its the BDB.
My only problem with e61 is heat up time. But when i picture a machine in my kitchen its always that E61. So nice.
I need to pull the trigger already its just a big investment for me. The e61 also has the build quality & dependability.
The bdb has features.
I would rather buy once cry one but i dont know.. Help....lol
You’ll be very happy with either of the Profitecs mentioned. If you always imagined an E61, then go for it! You won’t regret it for a second. If you’re a buy once guy, I’d recommend those over the Breville
@@LifestyleLab_ thanks man.. look forward to you upcoming videos
I love your work...than you! I had an Appartamento for about 6 weeks before it malfunctioned. While that could happen to anyone, I was frustrated enough by the entire ship/repair process that I switched manufacturers and retailers. I bought a Profitec Pro 500 (the 400 didn't exist yet) and have been thrilled with it. I must say that I disgaree about build quality. For me, the Profitec fit and finish blows away the Rocket. Forget the cup border (which is a total headscratcher), the drip tray, knobs, side paneling(and everything else I can think of), are much tighter on the Proiftec.
Could you also add the "flow Control" to the p400? This would Enhance the pre infusion even further and would seal the deal for me (coming from a flair and seeing what flow control can do)
yes you can, and actually Whole latte love is selling it currently with flow control added for free. Atleast I believe they still are, they were when I bought mine like a month ago.
How are you liking the pro 400? I’m still deciding on either the 400, Mara x, or the ascaso pid duo.
@@itsjrbro I love it. Compared to those others, i don’t know much about the ascaso, I see others say the Mara x is better with temperature control, but personally I don’t really like the look of it. I upgraded from a gaggia classic pro so it was still a huge upgrade. The build quality is fantastic, its pulled some great shots, I really have no complaints with it.
Great comparison.
I'm deciding between the pro-400 and pro-500. It's not easy!
Great review. Will the Ascaso line up of espresso machines make their way in the Lab for review in the future? I not only enjoy your reviews but trust your opinions as well! Thank you so much! Cheers!
Ascaso will make a cameo before the end of the year!
@@LifestyleLab_ wonderful news, thank you kindly! 🙏
Sounds like both are single boiler machines.
What does the heat exchanger function mean to the user experience?
From the Profitec site you linked, they say it can brew and steam at the same time. Will that be at the correct temp for each function, given it has a single boiler?
How long do they take to warm up from off to ready to brew?
cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0079/0665/6292/files/operation-of-a-heat-exchanger-based-espresso-machine_5321a51b67cc1_480x480.png?v=1631626959
That light blue disks look like two big eyes 😅 is this the design intention?
If have to choose one, will surely pick profitech pro400.
Your review videos will be another level if you add some B rolls 🙌🏼
I do like the look of the blue :)
This video was 50% B-Roll!! Haha
Now we just need to see a comparison between the profitec and the mara x!
Need to get Lelit on the channel period!
was going to post the same comment. maybe 1st line doesn't offer affiliate links?
What’s 1st line?
@@LifestyleLab_ the north american (or maybe just USA) distributor for Lelit .
Ah, must be USA specific. There are a couple distributors in Canada :)
Another great video! I’d definitely go with the Profitec. How would you stack up the Letit Mara X v2 against these - seems more comparable to the Profitec but looks wise the black Mara with the wood accents beats the Rocket and Profitec imo. Cheers.
i was on the same debate but the build quality profitec >>> mara x.the adjustable pressure valve up top was the deal maker for me when i bought my pro400
@@willwang9936 How do you like the 400? Did you get it from WLL?
Thanks for this review! Will be going with the P400. Smaller machine and easier controls for temp.
Great vid! Helping to make my first big espresso machine purchase a bit easier. Anyone have experience or comparison to MaraX from Lelit? Seem very close.
Lelit is also a great option and can offer some additional features at a similar price point. Trade off will be in terms of build quality. Depends what areas are higher priority!
@@LifestyleLab_ Thanks for the quick reply and the info! Profitec's 3 year warranty is pretty tempting over the 1 year from Lelit. Did you find that you had to do many cooling flushes with the PP400 after bringing it to heat and back to back shots?
@willfalltrick8149 a quick flush from the group after the boiler is back down to temp is still probably a good idea, but nothing crazy :)
Love that steampunk look:-)!
Stay away from Rocket. I fell for the sexy Italian machine. The first experience was with a well taken care of used. It lasted about a year and a half then the internals sparked like the fourth of July! Since I was still smitten I bought a new one, after almost two years overheating began! I loved the instant steam pressure of a heat xchange machine but I think the demand has affected quality. For the money paid on these units, I'm expecting at least four years of no major troubles.
Great review! And, reasonably priced mid-level machines.
What would you say out of your machines is the go to for you? Daily driver in other words.
In a very fortunate position, but this:
My Espresso Setup! - 2022
th-cam.com/video/OS32A2AMg5g/w-d-xo.html
Nice
Uggh...what makes this a really hard decision IMHO is to me, Profitec looks more plain/industrial, especially the 500. Both the 400 and 500 knobs look really cheap. And the coloured discs?? Come on.... The looks of the Rocket tug at my heart... :). That said, I see idrinkcoffee in Canada is dropping the Rocket line...
I thing wrong with going with your heart!
But yes, technically the Profitec does have a pretty big leg up. Maybe take a look at Ascaso if you want that design flair?
The apartemento was a disappointment for me. Especially for the price. Sent it back. :( I don’t understand the popularity. No pid. The Pro 400 is a bump up, but should get the 500 atleast for the timer/pid. The 700 is pricey but dual boiler makes it nice for hot cocoas for the kids without interfering with espresso making. All in, I went with the 700. Have considered stepping down to a Ecm Classika pid machine. For the size to price, it may be worth it.
The only reason why you would buy the Rocket is if you wanted a simpler machine with less electronics to go wrong. With the Rocket you can add a group thermometer so you can do precise cooling flushes and still get top notch and consistent shots. Having said that the Proftec's interior layout is actually much better, plus it's more compact. For me I'd go the Profitec Pro 400.
Profitec has no excuse not adding a PID to the 400
Yes they do… cost
No PID no bueno. Even the $1000 Go has a PID, let alone a $250 Breville. There is no excuse to not have a PID in the year 2000. On wait, this is 2023.
I think you should have simultaneously, with the same beans, grind and glasses, brewed 2 espressos for us to look at.
They would look identical. Puck prep, coffee, and the grinder have FAR more impact on the shot than the machine itself except in extreme scenarios
@@LifestyleLab_.... That may be, but since I am in the market for a good upgrade, seeing it with my own eyes woul be helpful.
Profitec looks like a dorky star wars droid, where the Rocket is super sexy
Apartamento - a lot of customers has issues related with overhiting … it just look great and only that . As you better know it has a factory issue . So , please confirm this issue and not continue to promote Rocket Apartamento
This is not an issue. Any E61 will overheat the water if left sitting…
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
🙋 promo sm!!!
?
Hard to compare machines that were released 7 years apart. At this point the appartamento is basically a classic car.
It’s very easy, I just did it :)
All joking aside, the Rocket was behind on features from the day it was released…
I still like my Rocket, with all it’s faults and shortcomings. 🥲
Me too!
They both look like a plumber’s nightmare. If you go to an espresso cafe, the machines don’t look like that. They look sleek and purposeful. I just don’t ‘get’ the style choice with machines like this, especially with that chrome mirror finish reflecting back all that plumbing! It’s like looking at the Medusa of espresso.
This is a certain type of machine, it uses a very classic and standard group head called the E61. The cafe machines you are referring to use a different technology. If you go to Italy, you’ll see more classic machines like this very often
@@LifestyleLab_ I’m familiar with it. And I know there is better tech out now for dual heating elements, such as the Ascaso Duo.
Ascaso home machines use thermoblocks, which come with their own sets of advantages and disadvantages. Very fast heat up, inexpensive, but are very prone to scale buildup, hard to maintain, and can struggle with thermal stability
@@LifestyleLab_ I’ve been using a thermoblock device for a couple decades. maintenance is easy. I descale every few months, and have never had an issue with it. Temperatures are predictable. The Ascaso comes with a PID, which makes temperatures even easier to deal with.
If you actually take appart a coffee machine or any water heater for that matter it's absolutely scandalous what they charge
The never ending debate. Aesthetics on the bench (Appartemento) vs taste/result in the cup (P400).
It's not like the P400 is ugly by any measure...
@@htklun agreed. Minus the coloured knobs.
@@htklun of course, looks are entirely subjective. No right or wrong answer.
I like the look of the Profitec more. Its cleaner less steam punk. More features and smaller size.
When very successful companies in commercial or high end markets choose to make a consumer or home use product that is thousands of dollars. Then choose to do something which I consider financially pretentious from the accounting department, like put a $0.05 piece of plastic on the top of it, to then have a proper metal one designed and manufactured you have to purchase separately, is absurd to me and a complete deal breaker. When I choose to spend thousands of dollars on a machine it will be from a company that understands completely finishing their products before selling them is more important than trying to profit another 100$ from your customers. Adding a piece to a machine like that completely degrades the whole concept of going all out on everything else in the machine. Companies have to seriously stop with the nickel and dime your customers tactic when it would seriously cost them nothing to just use the parts they already have for the "higher end" machines such as knobs and things like that. Why go get a completely new part made of lower quality, when you already have the exact same thing of a different material in your production? The only answer to me is marketing and being able to tell your customers you're saving money with having plastic portafilter handles and knobs on the machine.