An Update On The Neverending Guitar Tonewood Debate
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 พ.ค. 2024
- In this video, I will share my thoughts on a recent video where Paul Reed Smith discussed his position on the ongoing tonewood debate. If you would like to help support my channel and get something cool in return, please consider the following:
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I've been building my own guitars off/on since high school. I'm 41. I build most of mine out of cheap disused woods from pallets,construction sites, fenceposts...etc. Have not had a single one that sounded "bad" because im using Oak, Cedar, Southern Yellow Pine, pressure treated lumber, chipboard, or plywood in construction and crafting grades. Only time anyone complained about the wood "tone" is when some cork sniffer with a Gibson or PRS, or other "prestigious" brand is listening with their eyes. Just built a quick and dirty offset for $10 using Cedar from a rotting planter I upcycled...sounds awesome even with repaired and upcycled cheap pickups. Even have a vid slated for Saturday.
The difference wood makes on a solidbody is so minor that it's not even worth arguing about.
Very well put. Thanks!
...and still the battle rages!
As a physicist with some experience and background in acoustics, I would say that, as long as the material of a solid body guitar is sufficiently stiff so as to allow for a suitable output from the pickups, you can get a nice sound out of it.
That's an interesting comment. One of my guitars has a Swamp Ash body. Very hard wood and very stiff. Screwing in the bridge is much harder as compared to one of my other bodies with a softer wood. I don't hear a difference in tone at all but the harder body has much better sustain and the notes (individual strings) are more defined when strumming. By comparison the softer body is more mush sounding when strummed.
@@thoughtprovoking001 do you have the same type of bridge on both instruments? Seeing how the bridge is where the vibration of the string is reflected, that probably has more influence than what the bridge is anchored in.
I can't speak to the science, but my instinct tells me there is more to it. Take an extreme example for instance. Make a guitar out of concrete, what would that sound like? Some wood seems to have a very negative effect on tone, sometimes species, sometimes just a particular piece. For instance....I replaced a warped Strat neck with a one piece all rosewood neck that just had a completely deadening effect on the tone. I have no definitive opinion on the overall matter, just throwing out some food for thought.
@@supernoobsmith5718 of course there is more to it! I just wanted to suggest that there is a sort of "sweet interval" for the stiffness of a solid guitar body, that may allow you to get a nice input for the pickups. I don't know how a concrete guitar would sound, but I would not expect any wonderous tone 😀. I was just giving what I consider to be a relatively well founded opinion, but just an opinion, anyway. If your experience suggests a different conclusion, I will be happy to change my mind if that means getting to a better understanding of something I love.
@@antoniotorregrosa7630 It was just a jump point for conversation, not really a disagreement.
really nice to hear someone finally talking sense about this. The manner in which the string vibrates in the magnetic field determines the sound of the guitar, and what the string is attached to influences how the string vibrates...
I’m in the Fricker camp. Makes a difference if playing unplugged or quiet enough to hear the guitar acoustically in combination with amplification. But, once amplified or distorted enough so it’s just what’s coming through the speaker that you hear, tonewood doesn’t translate in a meaningful way. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter, in particular if you fall in love with the guitar or song in the first setting to be able to express the music in the second setting.
Aye aye!
I could hug you right now, been making the exact argument for ages, no two pieces of timber are the same, a species name is not a control measure, etc etc. Well done mate!
Paul Reed Smith is an amazing marketeer and manufacturing engineer. His ability to refine manufacturing process to not only produce high quality instruments but have those processes be teachable to a variety of staff has defined his instruments.
But his tonewood argument is nothing more that marketspeak and has no actual scientific basing.
I really doubted about this statement.
A bunch of Chinese mid-range price guitars has a decent quality.(For the 1\10-1\20 price of prs)
@@iridios6127 I think you need to look back at what the original Santana SE did to the guitar market.
Every time he argues for tonewood he spends the entire time talking about everything but tonewood lol
"So you're telling me we can just put a rubber bridge on this thing and it will sound the same? What about strings made of yarn??"
If there is so much debate by experts it’s quite clear that the contribution of wood can’t be THAT important.
If it was, then everyone would use the SAME wood. And, if (as some people think) the shape mattered, they'd all be the same shape too.
Agree on all your points. Appreciate the calm rational discussion here.
What turned me off about Mr. PRS was how he insulted me as a basement dweller in my underwear for not sharing his view. Doesn't get me too excited to buy any of his products.
BTW, I choose wood based on its appearance, durability, weight, and cost. If I were a luthier, machinability would also be a factor. Even if I could detect the tone differences, I would guess there's almost as much variation within a species as there is between species.
Guess what -- Fender and Gibson did the same thing early on -- choose woods based on their availability and cost as well as weight, durability and appearance. I don't think they ever considered tone as a factor for their electric guitars. I doubt they were tapping on the woods to find the magic tonewoods!
“Electric guitars may have either a sold wood body or a hollow body. Vibrations of the body are RELATIVELY UNIMPORTANT, and since the strings TRANSFER RELATIVELY LITTLE energy to the body, electric guitars are characterized by long sustain.”
From “The Physics of Musical Instruments” by Fletcher & Rossing page 227
(Added emphasis mine)
Wrong ... the wood can have different damping for different frequencies. Basically works like EQ.
@@johnmoser1162 Dude, you are arguing with a physics textbook.
@@jamesogara7053 Yea ... and I have a masters degree ... 🙂
The word RELATIVELY matters. Because for a guitar dummy you can also play with a strung chipboard.
But if you spent like 30'000+ hours exercising ... then you will feel every fiber of a wood plank.
@@johnmoser1162 a masters degree in what?
I have a Masters of Music, with a Bachelor's in Mathematics.
For the idea that tonewood in a solid body guitar to have an effect on the tone that means that some how in the nanoseconds that the electromagnetic pickup picks up the vibrations of the strings after it is picked and turns them into electronic pulse, some how magically, and against all mathematics, the vibration of the string transfers with enough energy to vibrate the body wood WITHOUT energy loss and at an amount great enough that then the vibrations of the bodywood CHANGES the vibrations of the strings to change the harmonic content of the tone/timbre.
In nanoseconds.
That's mathematical poppycock!
But according to the physics textbook I quoted, very little of the strings vibrations are transferred to the body of the guitar. Thus the guitar vibrations are not enough to change the vibration of the plucked string.
Now, if you want to bang the guitar of the body while fretting some notes, then fine, sure I'll acquiesce that maybe the wood type has some effect on tone. But nobody is playing guitar like that for a whole song. Heck, Gene Simmons would only do it for a few notes here and there.
But the math for the side of the argument that the type of the wood of a solid body influences the timbre of the tone just doesn't exist.
@@jamesogara7053 I guess you picked the wrong subject. Should have also taken a few lessons in basic physics.
I have 21 guitars and one for ex. has a very unique G-spot. Means somehow that thing will resonate at the frequencies of G - and it's a solid body Music Man copy.
Other cheap guitars have similar effects for example that a SINGLE frequency is damped much more then all the other freq.
Lets look at the guitars > $1000 and >> $1000. Besides that they are crafted much better, the frequency distribution - or should we call Impulse Response - is much more even.
So the ideal guitar would have for the same "picking energy" the same "volume" and "sustain" and "dampening" for all strings (lets formulate that simply).
And you can very well measure that there are differences - not talking of nano secs and micro volts. And I want to emphasize gain - the average player will not notice but a pro will.
One thing that tone wood camp people are never doing is a double-blind test. I wonder why.
I've said that many times. A blind test would only take a few minutes and would instantly prove their point.
Which is why people with vested interests like Paul Reed Smith will never agree to a blind test!
That, and painting over any of that beautiful tonewood. 'Tonewood' is always most visually appealing, for some strange reason.
Back-of-the envelope physics: the signal is determined by the movement of the strings in the magnetic field of the pickups. "But the body vibrates as well!" Well, the body weighs some 4 kg. The strings weigh a couple of grams. So even if you transferred all of the string's vibrational energy into the the body, the velocity of the body's vibrations would be lower by a factor of a 1000 or so... and how much of that energy goes back into the string? Not a whole lot, seeing how guitar bodies don't resonate very long. And does the pickup move along with the motion of the guitar body? Seeing how it typically sits on a piece of dense foam designed to dampen vibrations - probably not.
For those interested in the nitty-gritty, there's a book by Prof. Manfred Zollner, "The Physics of the Electric Guitar" - you can probably find it for download somewhere. He argues that the parts of the guitar (apart from pickups and electronics) that do influence the sound are the ones that are in direct physical contact with the string - the bridge, the nut, the frets. He has not been able to measure any impact of the wood of the body in properly designed and performed tests (which are harder to do than one would think).
Thanks! The whole idea is just plain ignorant and is not even measurable, so certainly not audible and especially not with the slightest level of distortion or in a mix. Paul made himself look like a total clown.
The strings apply about 180 lbs of force on the body due to string tension.... therefore, they transmit a significant amount of energy to the body of the guitar when they are vibrating.
@@jeffhatcher6778 Which changes the pick-up activation HOW?
I’m very specific about my tonewood. I grow my own trees in a controlled environment and cut specifically from the core of the tree to get a very consistent warm rich guitar body which I then cover in a half inch thick coat of poly paint.
Yes or a big plastic pick gard
Mic drop
What matters: misinformation, mis-selling, predatory practice in pushing something that doesn’t matter. The ones who should stop arguing should be those who have financial gain in pushing the agenda
The point: As a consumer, beyond the basic feel / playability / stability of the construction, should we be paying premium prices for specific tonewood in solid body electric guitars with the idea it'll affect the sound? In my opinion, no. Not at the drastic markups that are being asked and specifically not when you can put a relatively inexpensive EQ pedal into the signal chain and create much more significant changes in your tone. If money is no object, do what makes you happy, but when you're trying to find a sound on any kind of budget at all, there are much better ways to spend your money.
Growing up relatively poor, this has long been my philosophy. Buy quality that will last, but don’t pay a premium for any “bling” and don’t worry about keeping up with the Jones’s on gear.
I've been playing electric guitar since 1985 and have never once selected a guitar based on the wood. What's most important to me is the scale length, build quality, ergonomics and to some degree the color. I do prefer light weight guitars so I may have unknowingly chose certain woods just because of their weight. Exactly as you stated, I have always changed pickups, wiring, amp settings, pedals and software to get the tones I like.
Thank you! At a certain point the most important thing is playing and enjoying music. It’s like we are arguing about the precision of shades of orange, can some people perceive slight differences and others not yes. Can they all agree the fall foliage is beautiful?
If tonewood mattered, every major maker would have one or more lines of guitars where all the hardware is the same and only the wood is different between the versions.
Well, they do. Fender has options with Alder, Ash, specialty woods, basswood, different tops, different boards. All with the same basic scale lenght and pickup config. Gibson has chambering and did maple tops for the tone. Ibanez offers specialty woods for its higher trims. Godin, PRS, Suhr, Tom Anderson, they all offer options like that. And there are customers for every configuration.
JS Bach wrote some of the greatest works in the history of music without even specifying which instruments should play them. This is how much tone matters in music. People who discuss tone do not understand music.
Imagine what would punk rock would be without the careful and judicious application of tone woods?
Steve Jones had the best tone.
I get all my guitar blanks blessed by a tone witch doctor on the new moon if I want a darker tone or a full moon if I want brighter tone. It always works like at least 33% of the time and 100% of the time for marketing.
I won’t fight a never ending battle but it was said right here. All though wood may make a difference in sound on an electric guitar the difference is minimal. The electronics have a bigger effect than the wood. The whole wood thing was done by the manufacture for marketing and to drive the prices up on the wood. Eddie Van Halen used guitars made out of bass wood to lighten them up to play for hours on end
Your take is EXACTLY what I've always believed. Each piece is totally different. I do believe different wood affects tone, but IMHO it has to do with how much frequencies and overtones are absorbed by a particular piece, and of course the construction of the guitar. THEN, that becomes ONE factor in tone. You also have the contact area on the crown of the fret, how the finger holds the fret, the nut, the bridge, the pickups, wiring/caps/pots, etc.
Great explanation, I saw a person use a body that would accept different type of wooden necks and with a analyzer showed barely any difference whatsoever between the woods.
Thank you Chris 👍🏻
I’m open to having a “tone pickup” debate lol 😂
how can we trade finger tone !! Nitro cellulose and polyurethane tone , or stainless or tin fret tone. hahah man we guitfiddlers are a funky bunch
To me, all guitars sound a little different to each other, often, even the same exact model. That small difference to me sounds about the same as 2 made with different body woods... which is to say, usually not very different.
Youll find setup, string age, accuracy of the pots and pickup height will have more effect than the wood...
You're absolutely right. In terms of making music it doesn't matter. I'm terms of science and facts however it matters alot because you have businesses and companies selling a "belief". How an electric guitar produces sound through an amplifier is very well known and the concept of tone wood has been tested thousands of times at this point. We don't believe that tone wood does not impact the tone of the guitar, we know. Now if the look and feel makes the playing more enjoyable then sure. Make that argument. Also vibrating pickups do not impact frequency because it's mechanical not electrical. It's 100% the fluctuations of the magnetic field caused by a conductive material moving through it. The one exception is in semihollow bodies that are able to produce enough vibration in the air to affect the magnetic field essentially becoming microphones
I thought you made some great points that I’d never thought of. We spend all this time trying to decide what species avoid to get, but never think to ask ourselves, “is this piece of (insert species) I’m ordering online going to be from a 40-year-old tree that has grown on a farm? Or a 160-year-old tree that has grown in the rain forest?” I would think the age and conditions around a tree would have as much or more of an effect on its tone then even the difference in species might! I sort of feel dumb for not thinking about this earlier, simply given the huge difference between pieces of Ash I have built with in the past. I have built Ash guitars that felt like bricks and ones that felt like feathers and never questioned whether or not they would sound the same (probably because they had different pickup types installed). Thanks for the video 👍
I had a old mahogany slab from Brazil that I was planning to make a Tele out of that was as heavy as a block of concrete. I tone chambered it to make it lighter and planned to put a cap on it but it still weighed a ton so gave up on it. Lots of good advice here!!
Physics folks. A guitar pickup is not a microphone - it doesn't have a moving diaphragm to "hear" everything. A guitar pickup can only be affected by metallic movement of a metal string, creating a galvanic effect by moving electrons in the coil. A nylon string on and electric guitar will make no sound. It makes no iota a difference what tone you may hear when the guitar is unplugged, the guitar pickup cannot "hear" that tone. String vibration only impacts the frequency (how fast), amplitude (how loud), and sustain (how long) - which is why neck pickups sound different compared to the bridge. The heaver the guitar, ideally more sustain (again, physics - mass , transfer of energy and all that stuff). The capacitance, impedance and inductance of the pickup DO affect the tone as to the pots/caps used for the volume and tone knobs. There is no "whistle" that is "heard" by a standard well-made guitar pickup. I've seen guitars made from 100% concrete that sound just like a Les Paul.
In solid guitars wood matters more for stability and how well it will handle changes in environments way more than sound
PRS needs to review his Don Quixote - he is tilting at windmills...
I haven't seen that particular video so I went to check it out to see if Paul has changed at all over the past few years. Nope! Same old argument, "If Stradivarius did it for his acoustic violins, then I should do it for my solid body guitars." Completely missing (or maybe deliberately missing) the point that acoustic instruments are also the speaker. When you want to record an acoustic instrument (violin, saxophone, trumpet, drums, piano, xylophone, flute, more cowbell) you put a microphone in front of the instrument. When you want to record an electric guitar, you put the microphone by the amp speaker. It's like Casio saying they need to make their keyboards out of ebony and ivory because that is what Steinway did it back in the day.
Chris asks, "What's the point?" When someone pays $3,000 for a basic electric guitar, they feel a need to justify it when they could have gotten a very similar sounding and appointed guitar for half that price. PRS make BEAUTIFUL guitars. But for some people the aesthetics are not enough. It has to be BETTER to justify that cost. So, tonewood.
The rest of us refuse to be gaslit by that nonsense and we're outraged (okay, somewhat annoyed) that someone is trying to grift people out of their hard earned money by making ridiculous claims about dead trees.
"Why can't we stop arguing about wood and its effect on tone?" - I and lots of people agree, but PRS keeps saying stupid stuff and throwing gasoline on the fire.
Tone fire wood?
My first bass was a B.C. Rich Eagle, NJ Series. I put an EMG in it in 1985. I took the paint off and discovered a piece of butcher block style slab. I later put a Kahler tremolo on it. Later I replaced the body with a Warmoth Eagle copy made of solid figured maple. Everything was transferred on to the new body. I did add a J pickup (never played it). In the end, I hated the sound of my new old bass. It had a thin cold and overly bright sound. I wish I could find that old body.
Either way, the wood mattered. Yep. I don't know why primary tone affecting secondary tone is so hard for guys. It DOES.
The point is they are shredding the rainforest for no reason. The tests are all made wrong: A/B and if the guitar is made badly you maybe can hear a micron of a difference. It has to be done like this: Listen to a guitar and you tell me what wood it is. Suddenly silence? That much to your huge impact, Dudes!
The only reason continued discussion is warranted is that PRS continues to use tone wood as a marketing tool. Whether it's guitars, cameras, tennis rackets or golf clubs, beginners (and beyond) fall prey to idea that it's the equipment that's holding them back. Nevermind that Beck, Bettencourt, Cooder, Vai and Van Halen could pick up anything with strings and make it sound awesome.
Until you park PRS in a blind listening test and he can identify the woods only by ear, this will continue. Even then he'd fabricate some lame excuse like audiophiles do when they completely fail double blind tests.
I agree with you 100%. Thanks!
It's the wood. NO...its the pickups. NO....its the pots. NO...its the caps. NO....its the neck. NO... its the strings. NO...its the nut. NO...its the tuners..... need I go on? I build with what I find around the house. Hardwood flooring, spruce, pine, laminate I beams...you name it. Each is its own work of art/theme. No matter what I pick up with my hands....I jokingly say.... "I can make a guitar with that".
Wood isn't conductive and pickups that are mounted on a scratchplate (Strat) aren't in contact with any wood then maybe you need to get a tone scratchplate. Maybe a aged plate or one twice as thick.
Great way to view this topic, and it’s absolutely true, it doesn’t matter 😊
Thank you.
Other than tweaking the guitar controls I tweak my bass processor,combo amp,PA system for the sounds I want
another great video, you made a great point! We would be throwing guitars away like crazy
Fancy wood is pretty. PRS makes pretty guitars. The only wood that matters on electric guitars is the back of the neck. Wenge and maple feel different on the thumb.
Great video. When I buy a electric guitar l play it and listen to the sound. I don't plug it into a amp till I get home.
I have a generic tele with Fender American Standard pickups. I guarantee that if Eric Clapton were playing that guitar to a crowd, exactly no one would be complaining about the tone of the poplar body. Even if the wood affects the tone, it would still sound like Eric Clapton. On the flipside, if I were playing Eric Clapton's guitar to a crowd, people might be complaining.
My favorite tone wood is carbon fiber.
Those Dan Armstrong lucite guitars are pretty cool
Carbon fiber is great. I still love my old Steinberger I bought in 1984.
What guitar you have with carbon fiber and why do you like it?
@@jdb2722 I don't have a carbon fiber guitar. This comment was sarcasm. The comment was meant to illustrate how dumb the argument for tone wood is. You can build a guitar out of carbon fiber, epoxy, colored crayons, ect. They will all sound great if they are built well. "Tone Wood" is a marketing gimmick.
@@weshinds9884 for solid body your right. All wood is tonewood. PRS is marketing product when he speaks. Does material really matter, I say a qualified yes. How much and does it matter, probably not.
I like exotic wood necks. Not because of their tonal properties but because of their high modulus of elasticity and natural oils that allow them to be played without any finish. Synthetic materials are great too.
Tone wood is an important variable in an acoustic instrument not so much in an electric instrument. So many other factors involved in an electric i.e. saddle material, nut material, bridge material, magnet make up (size, shape and strength and winding etc.), string gauge and material, flat wound, steel, p/up height ect. ect. ...
Point is play what YOU like and don't worry 'bout it.
Make music not arguments.
I agree it's silly. Paul went to the school of "Always be Marketing"! My favorite is the "I can hear the difference" people that put their ear next to the speaker and listen in isolation. You can "hear the difference", so what?
Well, in the blind they absolutely can't.
It’s all in the fingers baby!
Well said! As a builder, I have used maple, mahogany, basswood, ash, etc to make bodies over time. I couldn’t ever really tell a difference. Its the type of pickups, bridge and other hardware than has made the tones I get.
For me it does not matter, what matter is if the guitar is an instrument, if stay in tune and plays and feel good in my body and in my hands, if the intonation is perfect and if i can low the action. i have preferences like the kind of frets, stainless steel for sure, and i like mounting pickups, i like wood cause the colors and paterns and the smell. Wood is a noble material, no need to refine. Tone wood is a topic that i sometimes listen my friends asking me about what i think. I always say that the tone is on the fingers, and i proceed to play jazz in a advertized metal guitar. People grew with fantasies that a ultimate tool made by the gods is real. It is writen all over our documented history, in all eras.
Whenever Paul starts off saying "Look"... You know a tidal wave of BS is coming
People who start a sentence with ‘look’ or ‘listen’ are being aggressively defensive. It means that deep down, they know they’re in the wrong.
Thank you
Fancy wood adds to the furniture/collectable value, and adds little functionality over the pickups.
It adds weight, durability, and ability to stay in tune.
I knew you were going to do a response video as I read the article on this.
It matters because we want to know whether or not we should pay or look for certain types of wood in our guitars. If it doesn’t make a difference then any old wood would do and we should stop caring about it.
It's impossible to reliably predict the tone before the guitar is completely finished.
I own way too many guitars of various brands and wood types, the one thing that I like about the various wood types isn't the TONE, it's the LOOK.., I usually get a certain Vibe while playing one type(shape, style, etc..) and a lot of times I change the ELECTRONICS-Pickups-Controls to try and achieve certain tones, more than being that it sounds a certain way because of the wood choice, but I do love the look of certain woods Like BLACK LIMBA, which I find gorgeous, or really nice Swamp Ash too.. But I Appreciate your video and it makes sense :)
Perfectly well said. I totally agree with your well made points. You mentioned changing cables. How can that affect tone?
Different cables and cable lengths have different levels of capacitance, which directly affects the frequency makeup of the outgoing signal.
To elaborate on what Chris said: A guitar pickup is electrically modeled as an ideal inductor with a series resistor all in parallel with a capacitor. Inductance is in the range of 1.5 to 4 Henrys, series resistance around 6-8 kOhms, and capacitance between 150-200 pico Farads. That electrical combination has a natural resonant frequency usually in the range of 6 - 8 kHz. It acts like a tuned circuit in a radio. A typical guitar cable has a capacitance in the range of 15-30 pico Farads per foot. So if you plug a 15 foot cable into your guitar you just added 225 to 450 pico Farads of parallel capacitance to the system. If you run the math on that, it can push the resonance frequency down to 3.5 - 4.5 kHz. What happens at the resonant frequency is the harmonics that fall withing the resonant band are amplified by a factor of 2-5 depending on the value of the volume and tone pots you use. So a shorter cable enhances more of the higher harmonics while a longer cable enhances more of the lower frequency harmonics. That is the effect of the cable, and it is a significant component of the "tone" you are hearing. And no, the tone capacitor has absolutely nothing to do with the "tone" of your guitar at typical values of .022 or .047 uF. It only serves as an AC bypass for the tone pot so you don't ground out the signal completely when the tone pot is turned all the way down. The tone pot adds resistive loading to the circuit which reduces the "Q" of the resonant circuit such that the harmonic enhancement at the resonant frequency is reduced.
I always enjoy watching your videos. As a luthier that has built a sizable number of acoustic archtops with suspended magnetic pickups, I have this to add. "If all solid body guitars had bridges carved from a dense wood like ebony - that rested solidly on the top, there would be no debate about whether or not tonewood matters in solid body guitars." Metal bridges - especially ones with spring tremolo systems, act as a frequency buffer and block the majority of the wood's tonal frequencies from reaching the strings/pickups. Wood and metal do not vibrate in the same inherent frequency ranges. I built a guitar that proves it. The guitar has an aluminum "frame" body, but an Indian rosewood bridge with a Brazillian rosewood saddle. It does not sound metallic through the pickup, and it can be heard on video on my channel if you're interested in hearing it for yourself. The guitar is called the "AlumiJet".
Well said, tragically both sides are right, does wood contribute to the sound, absolutely. Anything vibrating on the guitar contributes, but it is not enough to impact the overall sound coming from the electronics. The reality is Fender and Gibson used the wood that was easiest to get and was readily available and if wood was that important then why are we still using the same wood today and not other species we have available, we couldn’t have got it right on all of the woods we used by dumb luck.
Well said!
people should focus on riffs and songwriting and keeping the good music alive
I'd be more interested in a tone bridge/ tone metal debate. On my 2nd guitar build, I was super disappointed with how lifeless I found the tone. One of the easiest and cheapest changes I could make was the bridge, so I gave a few different options a shot. I was quite impressed by how much difference switching from a TOM to a roller bar to something approximating a mastery I made from $40 of parts, made in the tone (the roller bar and fake mastery weren't drastically different but intonation was better with FM).
I do wish we had smarter conversations, where we discussed how to brighten a dark sounding guitar, or best highlight the innate characteristics of an instrument.
P.S. about a yr later I replaced the aluminum cradle/plate for a thick brass one I made, out of curiosity. It increased the string separation and gave a darker tone, but I ultimately switched back to the aluminum.
Brighten a dark guitar? Have you considered wiring changes or brighter pickups?
From everything I've learned, the speaker is the most important (even a virtual speaker) then the pickups, then everything else. Strings play a part, saddles, cables, wood etc all affect tone, but how much you can hear each one is relatively unimportant. I'm glad I learned it because it saves me a ton of money. Changing to a different IR on my amp sim is way cheaper than new pickups.
it indeed clearly does not matter because every guitar will be sold.. that is the gist of it. BUT for those who are interested, I learned a long time ago to play the guitar (or bass) you are trying for without the amp, listen to the sound the guitar is making, if it is good, you can definately hear it. It does not sound dull, the vibrations in the body and neck are vivid and abundant. I once oned a very expensive Van der Ende bass guitar, made of swamp ass and a maple neck, This is a very common combination. But the slap, the thumb was outstanding, the luthier had dried the wood and search for the perfect combination and that makes a difference. On the other side, I owned a Squire stratocaster which I made into a reclic. I used a airheater/blower to get rid of some of the paint and it further dried the wood I reckon, afterwards sprayed it with a nitro laquer and the sound was much better than with all the paint on it out of the factory...
Yes. My favorite tone wood is swamp ass:)
Well reasoned. My opinion is pretty much yours, that the wood vibrates the strings which impacts the tone but only to a small degree. Never really considered the other points you brought up, so thank you for exploring that.
Tone comes completely from the electronics and signal chain. Feel and vibe though vary a LOT depending on the wood. I built an offset body out of reclaimed lumber from an almost 200 year old barn, and the resonance when I strum that one approaches the vibes of an acoustic electric. Plugged in tone the mini humbuckers I build it with don't sound any different than those in my buddy's Gibson. Great content as always!
I agree with your stance 💯%
But division is the name of the game. Keep the people divided and fighting about trivial matters, and they won't have time or interest to look for the cracks in the foundation. I feel like our best move is to stay out of the "debate". Roll our eyes and move on to the next guitar build.
Nice job Chris! I greatly respect your perspectives (though sometimes I feel your "bedside manner" could use a little refreshment, lol). Ciao.
I don’t know the answer (I have an opinion thought) but there is an economics side to this. Someone who builds guitars out of expensive woods is invested in propagating the tonewood narrative. Someone making and selling aftermarket pickups is invested in the opposing point of view. Even if they are both acting out of their honest convictions, they have a financial investment in their side of the story.
Not to talk about the sunk cost fallacy, when someone built a whole business/career around a theory and now that theory is questioned. This goes for both sides.
For the average musician: play what feels and sounds best to you. I don’t even know what my favorite Strat is made out of.
Only the finest vintage, black plate RCA tubes can truly bring out the tone woods true properties. 😂🤣
I agree, it's much more about the actual piece of wood than about the species. And body wood will mostly affect the dry, unamplified sound and feel of an instrument. You won't hear much of a difference in the electric signal. Unless it's a (semi) hollow body which affects the way the strings ring out. Neck wood, especially fingerboard wood might also have a bigger influence on the sound because it's much more likely to interact with the strings' vibrations. Because it's in more direct contact with them and has less mass. But again, not the species of wood, more the actually selected piece (and neck shape and treatment, e. g. roasting).
But here's what has the biggest influence on sound by far:
1. How you play your instrument, so which frequencies you actually trigger
2. Your strings (!), so how frequencies can ring out
3. Pickup placement, decides which overtones are actually picked up and which are cancelled out
4. Pickup selection and electronics, like pot/cap values, which decide the overall EQ curve and loudness, and also the captured harmonic content
5. Maybe another thing that's contributing more than wood: Hardware (high-mass vs. low-mass bridge) and the frets - they are in direct contact with the strings
All of the above have a way bigger influence on (electric) sound than wood choice.
There is a You Tube video about where the tone comes from in an electric guitar. Very enlightening. One needs to be very careful when making statements about tonewood. I have often heard that maple acoustic guitars lack bass. The best sounding acoustics I have ever heard were made from maple. Yes, there are some differences in how solid body electrics sound depending on the wood used. But, that difference is slight.
My experience with "tone"wood so far has been similar. Does it have some effect on the overall sonic character of a solidbody? To a certain degree of course yes. Can you deliberately shape and form that by selecting the appropriate breed of wood? No. Does it really matter that much? Not at all. I do wanna say, I appreciate your unagitated perspective on the matter, Chris. Obviously it's not the preferred thing to do on the internet, which is being as loud, dumb and opinionated as possible. Some people have figured out that it's best to stir a quasi-religious war of opinions around certain topics to keep their audiences engaged. There are very similar pseudo-debates surrounding pickups, also EQ effect plugins etc. It's really quite pathetic most of the time.
12.26 'the trees were cut from different trees in different environments'...the primary instructor in the Finnish guitar building school in Ikaaalinen Rauno Nieminen said the same wood grown in different locations will produce a different sound..yes, but the tone difference will be minor..mostly noticeable when playing clean..when you add distortion of some kind then the added harmonics will basically hide the differences. There was a video once done by a guy that put strings onto a steel beam in his building..there you notice a significant difference in tone from different types of wood.
I agree with his assessment, however, it still doesn't get us anywhere closer to being able to predict or control to outcome.
@@HighlineGuitars my point here is that sure, there is some difference and but mostly observable when the guitars are compared with a clean sound through the amplifier, but since most guitarists adjust the tone with their amplifier or with some pedals/dsp..the difference is minor..basically, the denser the wood, the better its ability to sustain higher harmonics..
I prefer response to reaction every time.
I’m of the opinion that wood wood in electric guitars DOES have an effect on the tone. It ii rarely a large effect. I have heard electrics and acoustics made or carbon fiber that sounded great. I have also heard ceramic guitars, acrylic guitars, concrete guitars (OUCH!), as well as laminate (plywood) and even a cardboard Strat.
They had different pickups and sounded a bit different; but could probably be EQ’d to very similar. Tone wood makes a much bigger difference with acoustics, especially when unamplified because you are literally hearing the top vibrating.
It’s all so subjective that even if there were huge differences, some would prefer one to another. “If it sounds good, it is good” no matter the wood applies here.
The reason people argue about it is because they're nerds. Every interest has a nerd base. If you have a nerd base, they will argue over who is the nerdiest.
does anyone anywhere on earth (and beyoooooond)add wood to any other electrical circuts to change/enhance them?
I like different woods because they look different and they are different weights.
I wonder if i can find wood what resonates at a 440 i don't believe in tone wood but I do think resonance between string and board are not explored nearly enough . I feel like there has to be something there but it is just a gut feeling but I have spent a damn long time with a guitar up against my gut.
I'm convinced wood weight affects tone more than species, but I negate the wood species question by adding a substantial amount of solid metal directly under or in close proximity to the bridge. The wood is there to hold everything together.
There is an aspect of how the guitar feels (and sounds) to the player (me), that others may not notice. Some guitars feel dead to me. When you spend hours playing your instrument every day, you become fantastically familiar with it. I have 2 guitars with exactly the same woods and pickups and wiring, and they don’t sound the same - one has considerably more lows. Actually anyone could hear this. Bottom line: some care, some don’t.
Amazing point of view. That's perfect... If the sound of the guitar is influenced by wood, what are you doing specifically to adapt this guitar to this wood in your hands? If the don't do anything, the reality is that it doesn't matter. There is no point in discussing this topic.
Its funny that people get so caught up in the fact that a business must sell products to survive. They need marketing. So blaming the company founder and original luthier for being biased is on point. Does his products sound and play great? Yes. Are his guitars top level quality tonewood aside, just focusing on the clarity, sustain and stability and aestetics. Yes. Are these guitars worth these apointments for the price? Yes I think so. They are cheaper than Fender and Gibson top builds. Is Paul being harsh and not very empathic in his prsentation. Yes. But he has been saying these things since the 80s. Another proponent of tone wood is John Suhr. His guitars are also top tier.
These same arguments go for the fashion industry as well. Are brands overpriced for what you get? Yes in many cases.
Agreed. I don't fight with folks who believe there is an old bearded guy on a cloud watching everyone & listening to their pleas. Tonewood: it's pretty much the same as religious zealotry....
Smith's message might indeed have been constant for decades, but his argument has devolved into logical fallacy layered over logical fallacy. If a person watched that video without knowing that Paul is the founder of PRS, they'd have dismissed his arguments as the ranting of a sycophant.
could you do a video about dead notes and wolf notes, please? are there wood combos that are prone to that? ex. fender jazz are notoriously dead on che high C or D
This is all total truth! I saw a video where a guy used poplar for the body wood, and in my "old school" mind, I thought will sound like garbage. But it didn't, because he used high grade electronics - pickups and knobs. In this example, he used a Les Paul pickup in the bridge, and a Gretsch pickup in the neck. The guitar sounded just fine, but had the tonal qualities of the respective pickups. Middle position was a little weird though, and I like weird sounds - so it was cool to me. Wood tone is an old school thought process, and a marketing ploy.
Density and grain, matter, the rest is pickups and player
When you put the paint and all the gloss over the guitar, does the wood inside all that still makes a difference in tone?
Maybe it does, and maybe it doesn't. Who cares?!? You can't predict or control the outcome, so why bother? If you don't like the resulting tone, change the pickups. Or change the amp. Or change the speaker. Or play through EQ software.
Commented a few minutes ago on a link you posted on this subject, asked what you think, asked and answered. So thanks, your thoughts and perspective are fascinating. You're uniquely qualified to attest that you've heard mahogany sound like maple and vice versa. I was surprised by that. As a cabinetmaker I'm familiar with the wide variance within species regarding color, grain pattern, stability, etc. It I can't help wondering if you can't spot and select pieces from withing a certain species that best exemplify the traits you're looking for? I totally get where you're coming from, when you say it doesn't matter, just get on with doing the thing. But you haven't said it's impossible to obsessively search out the perfect materials for a certain tone..
I wouldn’t say it’s impossible, but I would say it’s a fool’s errand since there is no way to reliably search for wood that will yield a specific tone.
Absolutely right that it doesn't matter. It's electronic, and you can manipulate the signal so that it sounds like dogs barking if you want to. I think that obsessing about tone is essentially sonic masturbation. If you're playing for an audience, they're more concerned with the taste of their beer than how you sound, anyway. I'd be happy if I could just play better.
Thanks!
And thank you @fat-hand for the tip. Much appreciated!
So many people have bought into the snake oil for so long. I bought into it when I was young too. Once I started modding electronics I realized that I can shape any tone that I want out of any electric guitar. Now my first and foremost is how does it feel to play. If it feels right, it is right.
I believe wood is for looks durability and weight only. I definitely would not want a guitar made from mdf LOL!
once you have the speaker, pickups, amp, strings, guitar pick... most of the tone is pretty much set and the wood won't contribute much in relation, makes more sense to decide by weight or grain texture/appearance
"Most" in this case meaning about 99.99% but you're absolutely right.
I still think the most impact to tone is the neck, it’s stiffness/ hardness / resonance , and the strip of wood between the neck and pickups
That's all well and good, but you can't predict or control the outcome. You won't know the outcome until the guitar is finished and at that stage, there's nothing you can do as far as the wood is concerned.
@@HighlineGuitars I agree
100% agree
I think one of the points of contention may come from conflating acoustic sound (i.e. the sound you hear when not plugged into an amp) with what you expect to hear amplified. And then there is the whole "muse factor". A guitar that looks different or feels different can inspire you to play different material and in a different way. It doesn't mean the cause of the different sound was shaped by the choice of woods or the body shape, but I do believe these can have a psychological impact on a player's approach, which can be heard.
I feel like you can feel the vibrations while playing a guitar, and less dense woods feel more resonant. But yeah, there isnt likely a whole lot of difference when plahing through an amp. At the same time, certain guitars just have "it", and that special something has to come from somewere. Maybe just a cumulative effect of lots of little things done right. I think these differences make guitars magical
Chris, just a safety reminder:
your oscillating sander's lead cable needs attention
epair - just where it's attached to the machine itself!
LOL, that's the best takeaway ever!