As a new builder. I found the tap tests along with your thoughts on them and how you would adapt the bracing to be one of the most helpful building videos I have seen yet. Keep up the great work.
Great video. I am a newish builder and use a lot of unusual woods in my builds, partly because I like working with scrap (no waste!) and partly as an experiment. I don't want to be bound by preconceived ideas of what is correct or allowable. I really love your videos on expanding our thinking in wood choice. The Douglas Fir really stands out, as did the pine. I think the butternut works perfectly for a bass. I appreciate the advice on voicing as well. Your explanations were clear and helpful. Thanks.
I was at my local Austin Hardwood store just this week and although I have never built a guitar, I have been kicking around the idea. With that in mind I went down the aisle where the western pine and cedar are stocked. I noticed the Douglas fir, very close, very straight grain, and wondered why, like cedar, it wasn't being used in guitars. Then along comes this video.
Here in Australia, many luthiers are now using native Australian tonewoods. We are seeing some excellent builds as a consequence. I applaud your use of non standard tonewoods.
I am building 7 parlour guitars with different tops, spruce (engleman) redwood, celery top, Huon and King Billy pines, western red and red cedar, silver quandong and a ukelele sized incense cedar, Blackwood tops need to be made thin but have nice top end, all of them work, the right piece of Douglass fir is already on my list of things to try next as is oregan which a friend used on an arch top which sounded great. Tazalam, mahogany, bunya pine, nomex double tops with balsa I have heard, they work well too as does pure carbon fibre, interested to hear what others have tried..
As a guitar player and a fine furniture maker, very beautiful work. This is skill as it's best and yet so modest. Thank you for these videos. I look forward to watching more.
Over the years ive built a lot of guitars but the one that makes me most proud still is the guitar i built for my father that has a top made out of the old floor in the house i grew up in. Not sure exactly what it is but it had so much resin in it i had to clean my plane sole with every couple strokes.
I make my ukuleles with woods sourced locally in Northern Illinois. Black Walnut, White Oak, Crabapple, Magnolia and maple have all served me well. I have some Cherry drying for use in a few years. So I think you are a kindred spirit…
Thank you so much! I've watched many of those cork sniffer videos warning us newbies not to use scrap or reclaimed wood on our first build. Why not? My dad used to say "I've never learned a thing from things that go well." You are my favorite luthier! My wife and I both love your videos!
i like the layout and the order of your workshop, amazing. i remember reading bob benedettos book on MAKING THE ARCHTOP GUITAR. He stated he made an archtop guitar by using construction pine, the top ,bottom, sides and neck. He said it sounded no different than his high dollar made guitars. He said in the hands of the luthier , skill, experience, and he claim that the top plate and bottom plate should have a certain weight upon carving ( finishing them). I read this around 1994 ?
I've got that book too, and another one called The Blue Guitar where 25 makers did whatever they wanted as long as they stained them blue. Seems to me Sitka spruce is NOT the ONLY guitar top wood anymore! I haven't built a guitar yet, but I have collected some woods, like a fantastic tiger maple that should make about three necks, and last week I dragged home a very pretty pallet to reclaim. I did play a pine guitar once, it was deep sounding, lovely.
I love your presentation of alternate material tops! You are truly an expert. For my first guitar I made a knotty cedar topped semi-hollow telecaster out of scrap wood and invasive tree of heaven composite. I even made the neck out of reclaimed flooring. In the electric world musicality is all in the pickups anyways, but it really sings. Everybody should be doing this for maximum sustainability.
I’m enjoying your bracing commentary. I’d be interested to see if you took a top, hide glued the braces and tested it, then shifted them down and tested it. That sort of comparative thing would be so concrete.
Great pragmatic approach to the craft very informative and interesting . I live in South Eastern Queensland on the island continent of Australia where our timber is about as different to your NTH American species as is possible. Ive been building Guitars and Tube amps since the 90's and use, QLD maple ,Silky Oak,Quandong,Flandousa,QLD Red Cedar,White Cedar ,QLD Black Bean and my favorite FNQLD Sasafras, All unique to this land. Marvelous timbers
Interesting. My favorite classical guitar, made in 1972, has a top of Alaskan Yellow Cedar, (Manuel Fraquela called it High Altitude Canadian Cedar, from its appearance and grain it is the Yellow variant) very similar to Port Orford Cedar. Very fine grain, denser and harder than Western Red Cedar. Manuel Fraguela used bracing similar to what Ramirez was using in the late 60s with a slanted lower cross brace and 7 fan braces. It has good bass response, but the treble is also strong and it has surprisingly good sustain for a classical. As for top grade selection, John Gilbert often preferred A or AA tops because they had the density he was looking for. For the steel string I am building now, I took the traditional route for my first steel string acoustic and went with a fine grain Sitka top.
I attended the luthier course at The Apprentice Shop in Springhill TN in late '76. They had a jumbo-sized guitar built by Mike Lennon with a root Honduran mahogany top. It was my favorite guitar in the place. You wouldn't expect it but it sounded fantastic.
I’ve built three classical guitars with redwood tops. Two from a salvaged forest floor log and one from sinker redwood. All with sitka bracing. Similar to cedar in its warmth but a little darker and very even and smooth across the strings. Probably not for everyone but I love it for its contrast to spruce and cedar.
Thank you very much sir! I learn a lot from you! The difference in tone produced by each type of wood is incredible! They all produce incredible sounds! I really liked it! I follow your channel in Brazil.
The Douglas fir was a delightful surprise. I have access to a variety of old wood - as in 100-250 years old - from a friend who does a lot of remodeling of Colonial houses.
I love your "pragmatic" approach to the different and sometimes unconventional types of tonewoods you use whether in the soundboard or the back and sides. Every tonewood is unique and has its own qualities. I realise that Adirondack Spruce is the "epitome of tone" but, I also realise that maple, mahogany, cedar, walnut, koa, rosewood, dao and even willow and others are just as relevant. Thanks for your considered opinions and innovations.
Bud, superb. For me, the Sitka and the last one were the stand outs. I'm a player, and although I build a huge amount of things, have not even looked at building a guitar. But I'm certainly interested in tone woods. The sitka, I already know the tone of. That last one was magical. Thanks heaps for the video.
This is a great watch, sensible and interesting, love the cork sniffer reference! A bit like the rivet counters in the classic motorbike scene!. But anyway, very informative and thought provoking to consider using what one might have available rather than buying at significant cost. Im a novice builder, so anything that builds my knowledge sensibly i appreciate. Great work, and a very tidy looking shop too! I also found the references to changing the bracing based on what you start with to be interesting, being based on absolute experience.
Always thought the idea of building a top out of old piano sound board was a great idea. Old pianos are free. The wood is really old. Probably old-growth. I'm sure the better pianos used great spruce. Obviously they wouldn't be two piece tops, but it's something I'll probably get around to one day. At least it would be fantastic brace wood. Just my two cents. Loved the video!
My second guitar used an old piano soundboard. That guitar was a bit rough around the edges. It has done the rounds with some local musicians due to the sound it had.
Over the years ive used spruce, ceder, spruce and ceder combo in strips, bamboo and oregon pine. Its all about how you use it, every piece of spruce is different so will take different thicknes and bracing to perform right and the same can be done for a lot of different species.
Thanks for the sharing these, and your reflections on the tonal qualities. I really love white pine and it's nice to have the encouragement to explore with this wood.
Super informative! Find the use of alternative woods very exciting. As a paying customer, my priority would always be sound over looks - especially if it keeps the finished price down. So for me, playability and sonic appeal outweigh everything else.
Thank you so much for sharing your vast knowledge of wood and bracing and guitar building!! You’ve given me unbelievable encouragement to try my hand at building an instrument!
That's great news and your comment encourages me to put out more and better videos. Enjoy building a guitar and don't forget to start the second one a little before you finish your first.
Fascinating. I am looking at a Guild 12 string acoustic guitar, brand new, made with mahogany top (as well as back and sides). Impressive stats, given its price point under $1000. Interestingly, their lower priced model (not cheap, but next stop down) is a spruce top.
Why didn't I know about you previously? Love your new (to me) videos and most of all your attitude to Woods. Here in New Zealand I've been using Kauri, (Agathis Australis) recycled, old growth and 'newly" cut. Matai, (Prumnopitys Taxifolia) NZ Cedar, (Libocedrus Bidwilli) for tops for many years now. They all work. The sound is perfectly acceptable, but different than 'traditional' woods. The Kauri especially is a wonderful top, has nice sweet tone at low volume and plenty of headroom at the top end. As for Douglas fir, almost invariably I use it for brace wood, all recycled. It's light and extremely strong, can be trimmed and sculpted to fine dimensions while retaining it's strength. Keep thinking outside the square.
That is interesting to me here in Oz, tried many here with silver quandong being the most interesting sound so far, red cedar, incense cedar, King Billy, Huon, bunya, celery top pine all work very well. A friend used Oregon in an arch top, I would try that and Douglas fir too.
In regard to the Douglas Fir, I've seen in very old buildings, mainly Church Steeples and Bell Towers, Douglas Fir used for lintels for the brick masonry work. Sometimes it was shocking that after 150-200 years most of the wood lintels were in excellent condition. We did replace many but almost never was it many per structure. I should add that the older masons new how to keep the weather off the wood lintels by keeping them slightly back in the wall as were the brick layed on the lintel cantilevered outward 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 inches. Most of failures (wood rot) I saw were from poor painting and caulking techniques. I am now retired and miss my work very much.
Im a part time Kiwi hobby builder. Usually I have to use what wood I can get. I've tried a few of our native softwoods, Kauri and Matai for soundboards. They seem to work well. There are a few native hardwoods that seem to work well for backs, sides, necks, bridges and fingerboards. Thanks so much for your vids. They are very interesting and useful.
@@thepragmaticluthier thanks. Just been building a go bar and radius dishes this morning. Sadly im off to say goodbye to an extremely sick and skilled violin and mandolin builder this afternoon.. I have a big bandsaw and cut up my own logs. Im an experimentor. Interested in the what if.. An aging folkie musician. I've spent more than two decades teaching secondary workshop metal and wood well retutef now Thanks so much for your vids. They are really inspiring.
A flat sawn top is not the text book way to orient an instrument top at all, but I'm curious. Why do you assert that an X-brace is so necessary in that context?
Is my interpretation of your theory correct; that being that an X-brace on a flat sawn top will resist upward distortion below the bridge and downward above it, better than fan or ladder bracing, especially ladder bracing. There is actually very little difference in stiffness between flat and quarter sawn material, so the bracing pattern may not be of paramount importance with respect to strength. An instrument top is almost always quartered because radial shrinkage and swelling are about half that of flat sawn in any given specie. With respect to bracing patterns for steel string guitars, I have used fan bracing, but my efforts produced an undesirable tone. I'm confident that it works, but I missed the target. As for ladder bracing, I won't touch it. Richard Schneider pointed out that as a brace is rotated closer and closer to a 90 degree angle to the grain of a top, it tends to shut down the transfer of kinetic energy from its position, below the point of excitation of the string, the result being an instrument of demonstrably drier, slightly vapid tone and a recognizable loss of volume. I hope my answer has some value. Your questions certainly invite thoughtful debate. Thank you.
As a woodworker; this is my next venture. I’ve made a new neck and turned a damaged acoustic into a 5 string; but I would like to build the whole guitar and as a new subscriber; I am impressed with your work. Also being from Michigan; I’ve thought why use the so called norm woods for guitars when this state has a variety of interesting species to choose from. Thank you for posting this and other informative videos on this subject. Take care.
Because I have built other things out of white pine, (not instruments), I wondered why I never see it at luthier supply houses. Thank you and I think it is gorgeous.
I think you don't see Pine at Luthiers' supply companies because it's one of those "no one else sells it so we don't" situations. If enough independent builders use it, or if a manufacturer came looking for it, it would be easily available.
I built an acoustic for a friend who had no money. I used shelving boards from Lowe’s. That was 15 years ago. He still plays it. It was spruce everything. Lol.
I should try it, but I have to admit that I have an irrational distaste for birch, for no other reason than the fact that it was used ubiquitously in schools, offices, churches and medical facilities throughout the 50"s and 60's. And sadly, all of the plywood was rotary cut, producing a look that was enough to induce vomiting. I'll try to overcome that and make a Birch guitar.
The pine and fir are amazing! They’ll probably give beautifully balanced guitars especially in the GA or concert sizes - might be a bit ‘boomy’ for a dreadnaught but I’m considering a GA sized guitar now… and that fir has a chime to it that I think would be amazing for jazz! I don’t have the facilities to make guitars but I do make my own pics out of local NZ hardwoods - and I enjoy not listening to the click of the commercial plastic plectrums; favourite is probably Rimu - followed by Kowhai (a nice creamy wood) - which both take a lovely finish! PS - that butternut is absolutely stunning….
I love what you do on your channel. I follow every post. I’m about to try my first build at the age of 54. What could go wrong😅. So thanks for all your helpful tuition and tip.
PLEASE do the follow up vedios. I am really cuorious to know the results of the five guitars. It would be first one of its kind clasic work. Thank you such to share your inspirational ideal and ecperience!
Thanks for the encouragement. It will take several months, but I am committed to demonstrating the finished instruments and doing an objective evaluation of the results. Stay tuned and thanks for watching.
Your video was awesome. I'm with you on pine. I don't make guitars yet but I am making ukuleles. As Sitka is getting harder and more expensive, I'm all for considering other options. I'm trying to focus what I make based on the tone woods present in the New England ... primarily NH & ME. I've made several pine top (Eastern White) ukuleles and I can tell you it's a beautiful tone wood. I've started the hunt to see about getting quarter sawn pine, but very few do it or just don't advertise it. Along with the pine, I have access to quite a bit of cherry. My last uke I did the white pine top and used cherry as the sides and the bottom. I also use cherry for the tops as well. The pine with the cherry is awesome. I'm not sure why Cherry has also been over looked, I suspect that it's used more in furniture building. I highly recommend it along with the pine. I'm trying to think outside the box as it's easy to get caught up in what's the flavor of the day and not considering other possibilities. Also I like to work with local mills where I can physically take my time and go through the wood I'm looking for. Though alot of people just flat saw pine, you can get quarter sawn (somewhat) when you flat saw on both sides of the pyth, usually the grain pattern is quarter sawn. Pine is very underated as a wood but yet I've seen some lovely pieces for making instruments. Do you have a video on just voicing your soundboards? I found your testing the different woods for sound was great. It would be nice to see something even more indepth. Great video! I'm your list.
I’ve been building ukuleles with maple tops for a little while now. You have to make them thinner and adjust the bracing to compensate, but they have a delightfully bright tone…
kevin, you're a breath of fresh air in the youtube luthier community! someday, i'd love to have you build a new mexico native guitar for me. rocky mountain blue spruce top, and i'm not sure which hardwood to consider for the back/sides-would love your thoughts! thanks for all your fantastic information/experience!
I'm not inclined to even sound "commercial" on this forum, but I would be happy to communicate over this issue with at a time of your choosing. You can reach me through my website. Thanks for your positive comment.
I once heard about a legendary guitar made with a cherry top; built by a luthier in the Southeast US who made a guitar for Eric Clapton. Not many people talk about it, and there are no recordings of it, but they say it sounds absolutely wonderful.
Cherry has most of the same specifications of Mahogany...except for the stability. People like Mahogany tops so I can see it being used. I've done back, sides, & neck in cherry and it is beautiful. As one instructor says, "it is all about stiffness and looseness", that is what you need to figure out for each species.I may have to try a cherry top as I have a garage full of that stuff.
I've got a very nice tight grained piece of DF that should yield at least two great tops. Great color as well. I'm looking forward to trying it out. Thanks for another great video.
I'm starting to feel overwhelmed by the variety of data needed to learn from each build. Species used, thicknesses, bracing patterns, and so on. Would you share what data you record from each build - or at least, what data you find most useful in helping you understand how a guitar will be affected by your build choices? I find your videos quite interesting and even inspirational, Kevin. I'm quite glad you decided to do this. Thank you.
Thank you for this comment in particular. I've done 147 guitars to date and often feel exactly the same way and I KNOW many others do as well. I may try a video to address this very thing, but in the meantime, may I suggest that you pick, even almost at random, a point of departure within known reasonable limits of species, dimensions etc, and enjoy the process because it will serve as a point of departure your YOU personally. And most importantly, remember that it is the joy of the experience that is often greater than the end product. Lastly, refrain from thinking of building a guitar in terms of Martin, Taylor, or whoever is the big name and expert in the field. Enjoy the process and build yourself a guitar or 300.
Some local species I'm curious about - based on little more than the sound made by handling sticks or hewing the logs - are: honey locust Persimmon Mulberry Dogwood
I admire that you heard those suggestions of music in the timber you're using. To me, and I hope you, that mean, build an instrument. You can't go wrong.
I applaud your efforts to open minds about non-traditional wood! I predict the white pine will be the loudest. If the mass of the top is the enemy, and thickness depends on density and stiffness, then there are many species that are better than Sitka Spruce. Using the Gore formula for calculating thickness based on average values of density and stiffness for each species, species that would make better tops than Sitka include (in order): Eastern White Pine White Fir Norway Spruce Northern White Cedar Noble Fir Black Cottonwood Western Red Cedar Engelmann Spruce Japanese Cedar (Sugi) Paulownia Lutz Spruce Balsa
An impressive body of knowledge. I look forward to the day when the science, information and quantifications of Gore, Kasha, French , et al, finally dovetail neatly with the empirical and intuitive traditions of guitar making.
Hey, great video! I have commented before on the use of domestic woods etc, and I love the idea. Especially interested in white pine and white oak, I’m in NC and we have plenty of these in this area. Thanks for all the advice and info you provide with your channel!
Another great video Kevin. One of your precious videos on adjusting the placement of bracing to affect the tone is the best I’ve seen on you tube. Regarding the acoustic bass, I have looked everywhere for a build/tutorial series on building and acoustic bass and there isn’t one. Would be great to see yours. Fingers crossed.
I have searched for that same information and have found nothing as well. The bass I'm currently building is only my sixth, so I won't claim expertise, but your suggestion is motivating me to at least take a stab at producing some videos along the way, if nothing else, as a point of departure for others. Thanks for that suggestion.
Those are some very interesting top woods. I know I've heard of a few different to words, including sycamore and Walnut. I'm definitely curious to learn of different options for the tops and sides. So I'll be curious to hear what these sound like in an instrument.
I was cutting up some 90 year olf Doug Fir floor joists I salvaged from a school in California and dropped a piece on the floor. I was immediately struck by the musicality of the tone it made. I’ve asked some local luthiers if they have ever used and they hadn’t which struck me too. The sound was undeniably pleasant and it’s plentiful on the west coast so why isn’t it used more often? Still don’t have an answer and I’ve never heard a guitar with a Doug fir top still…
Thanks Kevin, Great video. If you could do a video sometime showing what you mean by loosening or tightening up the bracing and what those changes do that would be helpful. I am especially interested in the Doug Fir because I have that available in my area of the country and I have a few billets of it already.
Great video. I too have always been interested alternatives to spruce for tops. I have number potentials on the shelf. Red wood and western cedar among them. Your thoughts on bracing with the idea voicing top, given the material used, was much appreciated. I'm sure you also associate this with the thickness of the top material in question. There always something to learn with each instrument we build.
I like using out of the ordinary woods for guitars. I have always thought that white poplar or tulip poplar would make a excellent top. I am now completely determined to make a 100% IPE guitar due to its nightmarish hardness and intolerance to workability. It's hard to glue, and is not happy at all about bending. The only way to bend it is to fully submerge it in water for 3 days first. It is almost waterproof from the high oil content. But the tone density is incredible it rings like a glass bell. I'm doing it just beacuse someone said its a terrible idea lol. I am expecting carbon fiber type tone.
Thirty years ago, a luthier told me that Douglas Fir cannot be used for a guitar top and it was for that reason that I immediately started one. I admire your attitude and approach. Don't listen to the cork sniffers, pursue you notions. I'll bet you're going to get a really nice guitar out of this.
@@thepragmaticluthier Thanks for the encouragement. I am just the type that has to do something because someone said I can't. It just makes it that much more challenging, and the satisfaction is two fold. Great content sir ! I really enjoy it.
Enjoyed the video! I really liked the sound of Douglas Fir through my headphones. Have you ever thought trying something even more unusual, such as a hardwood like say curly maple? I recently watched a video of a guitar Taylor made with a maple top. I was wondering if Butternut is similar to maple? Cheers!
I'm looking at trying several different hardwood tops, possibly this winter. I have been so busy with commissions and some furniture projects in my house, I haven't had time to build myself a guitar. It's getting to be a serious problem; I haven't had a new guitar in over a year. Woe is me.
Your comment causes me to wonder if you would make disparaging comments about the mashed potatoes at a free Thanksgiving dinner. My apologies that what I share isn't up to your standards.
You show the tops, which is of great interest to me, but I cannot see the grain due to the low quality video. Surely it is not beyond the realms to film in greater resolution for the benefit of all? Sorry if I came across as disparaging - I could perhaps have put it better, but was so dissapointed in the visuals, I gave up watching. I am tho, subscribed and do like your content, a lot. @@thepragmaticluthier
What Duke Ellington said…”If it sounds good, IT IS good.” Also to answer one question you raised…Allied Lutherie (Adam Buchwald in Vermont) has recently sold beautiful old growth Douglas Fir tops made from resawn Catholic School bleachers. Ken Parker has everything good to say about Douglas Fir. I wish I could get my hands on some of it here in Alabama easier.
The Douglas fir sounds great. It has the kind of ring that classical guitars need. I'm glad to see the consideration of white pine. The town I live in was a white pine forest. They are being brought down regularly. Four-piece top? If it was good enough for Torres, it's good enough for me! Thanks.
Thanks for your comment, especially for the section about Torres. I think builders everywhere need to revisit this sort of information and allow it to influence their thinking.
That Douglas fir has a nice bell like tone. I'm not a luthier or a player. However, I do find the artistry of gituar making and musicians playing them fascinating. So, to the novice, what do you mean by sawn top versus split top? 2ndly, if the board is wide enough, is there any reason not to make the top from a single wide board versus two glued bookmarked pieces? I'd presume from listening to your video about laminated necks the glued 2, 3, 4 piece tops have greater stability and less chance of warpage? Thanks for these videos. You make excellent points. I think the quartersawn cherry and sycamore lumber is beautiful. Have you tried any American persimmon?
Thank you for your comment and your question. Split tops begin as billets of wood literally split from short (approximately two feet long) log sections, similar to the way firewood is split. These billets, as seen from the end look roughly like a slice of pie. The reason for splitting them is to glean a surface that follows the natural growth line of the tree as closely as possible. The billets are then sliced on a bandsaw, with each pair of adjacent slices collected as two-piece tops. "Sawn" tops are taken from boards and planks which often have "runout". The growth lines cross the edge of the sawn board at an angle, sometimes acceptable and sometimes not at all. This happens in sawn lumber because it is impossible (and wasteful) to saw boards perfectly parallel to the taper of a log. Sawn tops with too much runout are less desirable. they refract light differently when they are re-sawn and book matched. If runout is too severe it will also affect strength but this would be a rare occurrence in sawn tops.. There are some one-piece tops available for luthierie, but they are rare because of their width. There is also an argument to be made that a one piece top is less consistent than a two-piece book matched top, that is, the growth rings in a one piece top will vary in width from sapwood to heartwood, more than a matched two-piece top, making a one-piece top somewhat less consistent in its physical and therefore, tonal characteristics.
As I watch these videos and glean what knowledge I can, I was happy to see you had a four piece top. Would you ever join multiple species of wood for a top?
At the age of 18, I met C.F. Martin III, who told me: "You could make a guitar top in ten pieces if you braced it right." I never forgot that and i have made tops with as many as 9 pieces. I suggest that you try whatever your imagination, intuition, and materials lead you to do. And ENJOY the experience.
i like your thinking!....im using some Queensland maple ...a great timber for necks and back and sides.....the next few guitars i make will have Quilted Queensland Maple tops!!!...
That sounds like a great idea! Myself, I'm looking forward to starting a Sycamore top. I have seen and heard a guitar done with it and can't resist the temptation to try it myself.
I have a torrefied cypress/yellow cedar top. Great tap tone. Quite stiff, very straight tight grain. Can’t decide what type or size guitar to use it for.
The bast way to decide is to not over-think the issue. The width of the top you have is the only limitation. Decide what size guitar you want to make and proceed with dispatch. It's the best and quickest way to learn you and it can do. Build yourself a nice one:)
Im a pro woodworker and Im sorting out pine 2x4’s that are used to stack up packs of wood, need 5 of them, glue them, saw them, and then I got material for an archtop
Great inspiration Kevin...am about to start my first scratchbuilt acoustic, after repairing them for many years. Am 68 now. Any opinion on yellow cedar for tops ? Have been told by experienced guys that it is good for back & sides, or classical. I like to experiment on steel string build. Might even try ladder bracing with top on the thin side, as the YC is pretty strong stuff. Have a soft spot for my old Harmony SOVEREIGN 1260. Wonderful unique tone IMHO. Thanks
I have limited but very positive experience with Yellow Cedar tops. I think it could be ventured that if you build within reasonably known limits of thickness and brace height, toucan't go wrong with it. Personally, I avoid ladder bracing in a top. Richard Schneider claimed that a brace placed at 90 degrees across a top, tends to shut them down. On the other hand, the Larrivee guitars are very successful and considered among the best. Go figure.
@@thepragmaticluthier Thanks for reply. I am from Larrivee country....Victoria B.C., Canada. Very successful up here ! I find the SOVEREIGNs to be amazing tone wise, but are usually bellied. Most need neck reset. I leave the tops as they are usually stable after 50 or so years. There is a school of thought where some redo them with X - bracing...not a fan. A Sovie has beautiful singing highs & muted bass. It is my preference as l do a lot of melody picking over chords, on the higher strings. Heavy bass, just muddies things up IMO. It is what it is....why change it ? Hope you have a chance to try one someday. Thanks again
Acoustic guitar tops are the speaker cones of the guitar, just like those recycled compressed paper cones in speakers reproducing guitar music. How many people tap on speaker cones to figure out how well they will reproduce guitar sounds? Bracing is the key to finished guitar tone (you already mentioned changing bracing patterns during builds). Drive under highway bridges and railway bridges and look at the depths of the I-beams.Depth of the beam is more important to support loads (or reproduce sounds) than the tops since beam height or depth is a cubed factor in the engineering equations. A 3mm top cannot hold string tension like the 12mm braces under them, and carefully shaving those braces thinner is what many do to alter the sensitivity of the guitar sound (where 'cheap factory' guitars just use un-shaven bracing bars due to time). One example out there: the Obrien Guitars channel made a cardboard guitar and it sounded good -- not far from compressed paper speaker cone materials assuming bracing ends are fixed to the sides. Accurate thickness comparisons (and uniformity) of the tops when tapping them along with plate length and width plus with/without sound hole are the tonal variations of tapping tops alone, more so than the wood. Take a look at Marimba tuning, they gouge away wood from the back side until they hit the note they are after. Because guitar tops are so thin to start, sanding variation at three decimal places can be impactful (any thickness variation is cubed). I like your pragmatic approach and see you have some other investigative style videos on your channel I'll have to take a look at. Thanks!
You can build in any combination of materials that comes to mind. General;y, a softer, less dense back will lend warmth and richer bas to an instrument while a dense material will be more percussive, punchier. Think of a D18 as opposed to a D28 for example. You can use hardwoods for tops as well. Harder woods, more dense tops will make a more drastic change in tone and volume. Basically, more dense will be crisp, even lacking some richness and may cost the instrument some volume. Still, experiment. There are may guitars with hardwood tops of Sycamore, Osage Orange and many more. You may also want to search out Dick Boak's all Spruce guitars. They are fascinating instruments.
Any variety or version of Redwood is as viable as an instrument top as any other provided that it can handle the tresses in the contact of its use. Your choice of Walnut and Redwood seems to be purely an aesthetic one and that's perfectly legitimate and to my eye, would be very handsome. If, however, you consider the instrument, its specifications, circumstances of use, and your tonal goal, Walnut may or may not be your best choice.
The butternut top is very nice! It looks like it`s part flat sawn and rift sawn (45 degree of vertical). Will the expension needs to be taken into consideration? I thought that a top required to be true quartersawned . thanks!
Robert Benedetto made an arch top guitar with a flat sawn SPF 2X10. He said it was equal to any guitar he made with respect to sound. I think rift or flat sawn coniferous tops are not used because they are unsightly, that is; they don't look "guitar-esque". The possibility of runout in a flat sawn top may be a matter of concerning of course, tangential shrinkage. Deciduous tops, however seem to be exempt from all of those considerations. I would always want to make sure that the tangential shrinkage rate of any given specie is tolerable before use, but of grater concern would be the tonal character that a deciduous top would deliver. I would be much more concerned with that than anything else. Maple can't shake like Butternut and Butternut can't shake like Spruce.
Would a spalted hardwood work as a sound board? What about sapwood from cherry or walnut? Just thinking of less dense versions of US hardwoods that could have interesting tonal properties.
Spalted wood is hard to trust because it is, in reality, minimally rotted. At the dimensions instrument parts are made, i would be reluctant to trust it. It is true that sapwood is less dense than heartwood, but getting enough of it to make a guitar top would probably require an eight or ten piece top; difficult but not impossible. While I wouldn't try it, it may be an idea with contemplation and worthy of at least some experimentation.
Wow. Haha. I had a ball sir. Deep respect for you and your craftsmanship. But I love timber and wood work . The differences in tonal qualities is distinct. Where to brace though ? Please excuse my ignorance. Bc I would imagine that once applied, I would think that bracing for stress reduction would change the acoustic properties of the timber ? Possibly making it worse not better. On the other hand, it may have a positive effect. How do you gauge this dance ? Is it by ‘knowing’ or by feel ? Or ?? What ? Cheers
You've brought up excellent questions that a case full of books can't answer completely or satisfactorily. There is lots of science and even more theory on the whole wood and bracing thing. In the nutshell, it's easy to imagine that a guitar top made too thick or braced too heavily will be quiet and not at all pleasing, but strong. the opposite end of the scale would be structural failure. it is between those extremes that guitar making exists.
Gerard gilet wrote a two volume book and therein is the treasure trove for understanding what a good guitar tone is, cannot recommend it enough. Trevor Gore has contributed lots to the Australia new deal and luthiers forum too, don’t let the equations put you off modal tuning works.
I could listen to this guy all day. Old world sensibilities.
I recently made a guitar out of osage orange, walnut, and american sassafras. Sounded remarkably well. All local woods from the area where I live.
I don't know if anybody has done it before, but your demonstration is what I've been looking for, for years. Thank you very much.
As a new builder. I found the tap tests along with your thoughts on them and how you would adapt the bracing to be one of the most helpful building videos I have seen yet. Keep up the great work.
It's nice to know that you derive benefit from this. Thank you for your comment.
Great video. I am a newish builder and use a lot of unusual woods in my builds, partly because I like working with scrap (no waste!) and partly as an experiment.
I don't want to be bound by preconceived ideas of what is correct or allowable. I really love your videos on expanding our thinking in wood choice.
The Douglas Fir really stands out, as did the pine.
I think the butternut works perfectly for a bass.
I appreciate the advice on voicing as well. Your explanations were clear and helpful.
Thanks.
I was at my local Austin Hardwood store just this week and although I have never built a guitar, I have been kicking around the idea. With that in mind I went down the aisle where the western pine and cedar are stocked. I noticed the Douglas fir, very close, very straight grain, and wondered why, like cedar, it wasn't being used in guitars. Then along comes this video.
Awesome video! I’m no longer scared to use that straight grained 4 foot pine log in my basement for top material!
Here in Australia, many luthiers are now using native Australian tonewoods. We are seeing some excellent builds as a consequence. I applaud your use of non standard tonewoods.
Recently Australian tone woods have become readily available in the US.
I am building 7 parlour guitars with different tops, spruce (engleman) redwood, celery top, Huon and King Billy pines, western red and red cedar, silver quandong and a ukelele sized incense cedar, Blackwood tops need to be made thin but have nice top end, all of them work, the right piece of Douglass fir is already on my list of things to try next as is oregan which a friend used on an arch top which sounded great. Tazalam, mahogany, bunya pine, nomex double tops with balsa I have heard, they work well too as does pure carbon fibre, interested to hear what others have tried..
As a guitar player and a fine furniture maker, very beautiful work. This is skill as it's best and yet so modest. Thank you for these videos. I look forward to watching more.
Over the years ive built a lot of guitars but the one that makes me most proud still is the guitar i built for my father that has a top made out of the old floor in the house i grew up in. Not sure exactly what it is but it had so much resin in it i had to clean my plane sole with every couple strokes.
I make my ukuleles with woods sourced locally in Northern Illinois. Black Walnut, White Oak, Crabapple, Magnolia and maple have all served me well. I have some Cherry drying for use in a few years. So I think you are a kindred spirit…
Thank you so much! I've watched many of those cork sniffer videos warning us newbies not to use scrap or reclaimed wood on our first build. Why not? My dad used to say "I've never learned a thing from things that go well." You are my favorite luthier! My wife and I both love your videos!
i like the layout and the order of your workshop, amazing. i remember reading bob benedettos book on MAKING THE ARCHTOP GUITAR. He stated he made an archtop guitar by using construction pine, the top ,bottom, sides and neck. He said it sounded no different than his high dollar made guitars. He said in the hands of the luthier , skill, experience, and he claim that the top plate and bottom plate should have a certain weight upon carving ( finishing them). I read this around 1994 ?
I've got that book too, and another one called The Blue Guitar where 25 makers did whatever they wanted as long as they stained them blue. Seems to me Sitka spruce is NOT the ONLY guitar top wood anymore! I haven't built a guitar yet, but I have collected some woods, like a fantastic tiger maple that should make about three necks, and last week I dragged home a very pretty pallet to reclaim. I did play a pine guitar once, it was deep sounding, lovely.
I love your presentation of alternate material tops! You are truly an expert. For my first guitar I made a knotty cedar topped semi-hollow telecaster out of scrap wood and invasive tree of heaven composite. I even made the neck out of reclaimed flooring. In the electric world musicality is all in the pickups anyways, but it really sings. Everybody should be doing this for maximum sustainability.
The Douglas Fir has the best sound to my ears of the tops that you were tapping. Very clear bell like tone.
Iv'e not had that experience in 22 guitars over 29 years.
I have built 147 guitars to date, 22 of them Douglas Fir.
I’m enjoying your bracing commentary. I’d be interested to see if you took a top, hide glued the braces and tested it, then shifted them down and tested it. That sort of comparative thing would be so concrete.
Great pragmatic approach to the craft very informative and interesting . I live in South Eastern Queensland on the island continent of Australia where our timber is about as different to your NTH American species as is possible. Ive been building Guitars and Tube amps since the 90's and use, QLD maple ,Silky Oak,Quandong,Flandousa,QLD Red Cedar,White Cedar ,QLD Black Bean and my favorite FNQLD Sasafras, All unique to this land. Marvelous timbers
Interesting. My favorite classical guitar, made in 1972, has a top of Alaskan Yellow Cedar, (Manuel Fraquela called it High Altitude Canadian Cedar, from its appearance and grain it is the Yellow variant) very similar to Port Orford Cedar. Very fine grain, denser and harder than Western Red Cedar. Manuel Fraguela used bracing similar to what Ramirez was using in the late 60s with a slanted lower cross brace and 7 fan braces. It has good bass response, but the treble is also strong and it has surprisingly good sustain for a classical. As for top grade selection, John Gilbert often preferred A or AA tops because they had the density he was looking for. For the steel string I am building now, I took the traditional route for my first steel string acoustic and went with a fine grain Sitka top.
My local hardwood store sells Alaska Yellow Cedar, it does appear to be spectacular.
I attended the luthier course at The Apprentice Shop in Springhill TN in late '76. They had a jumbo-sized guitar built by Mike Lennon with a root Honduran mahogany top. It was my favorite guitar in the place. You wouldn't expect it but it sounded fantastic.
I built a 100% black Limba guitar a few years ago, top, back and sides , and neck were all black Limba. It was an awesome guitar.
I’ve built three classical guitars with redwood tops. Two from a salvaged forest floor log and one from sinker redwood. All with sitka bracing. Similar to cedar in its warmth but a little darker and very even and smooth across the strings. Probably not for everyone but I love it for its contrast to spruce and cedar.
I'm looking forward to my first build. Your teachings are helping me to choose the components of the build, Thank you!
Thank you very much sir! I learn a lot from you! The difference in tone produced by each type of wood is incredible! They all produce incredible sounds! I really liked it! I follow your channel in Brazil.
Thank yo for watching. I hope I can produce more content that you will enjoy.
@thepragmaticluthier I appreciate so much! Thanks!
The Douglas fir was a delightful surprise. I have access to a variety of old wood - as in 100-250 years old - from a friend who does a lot of remodeling of Colonial houses.
I love your "pragmatic" approach to the different and sometimes unconventional types of tonewoods you use whether in the soundboard or the back and sides. Every tonewood is unique and has its own qualities. I realise that Adirondack Spruce is the "epitome of tone" but, I also realise that maple, mahogany, cedar, walnut, koa, rosewood, dao and even willow and others are just as relevant. Thanks for your considered opinions and innovations.
Thank you for watching my video. Your comment is deeply appreciated
Bud, superb. For me, the Sitka and the last one were the stand outs. I'm a player, and although I build a huge amount of things, have not even looked at building a guitar. But I'm certainly interested in tone woods. The sitka, I already know the tone of. That last one was magical.
Thanks heaps for the video.
This is a great watch, sensible and interesting, love the cork sniffer reference! A bit like the rivet counters in the classic motorbike scene!. But anyway, very informative and thought provoking to consider using what one might have available rather than buying at significant cost. Im a novice builder, so anything that builds my knowledge sensibly i appreciate. Great work, and a very tidy looking shop too!
I also found the references to changing the bracing based on what you start with to be interesting, being based on absolute experience.
Always thought the idea of building a top out of old piano sound board was a great idea. Old pianos are free. The wood is really old. Probably old-growth. I'm sure the better pianos used great spruce. Obviously they wouldn't be two piece tops, but it's something I'll probably get around to one day. At least it would be fantastic brace wood. Just my two cents. Loved the video!
My second guitar used an old piano soundboard. That guitar was a bit rough around the edges. It has done the rounds with some local musicians due to the sound it had.
I use a lot of piano wood and it’s excellent if you are carefull
I love this video and I love this guy's attitude towards his craft.
My most beloved axe is my Taylor Academy 20e. The walnut is just gorgeous, and the compressed tone is perfect for me.
Over the years ive used spruce, ceder, spruce and ceder combo in strips, bamboo and oregon pine. Its all about how you use it, every piece of spruce is different so will take different thicknes and bracing to perform right and the same can be done for a lot of different species.
Thanks for the sharing these, and your reflections on the tonal qualities. I really love white pine and it's nice to have the encouragement to explore with this wood.
Butternut is a very interesting wood. Never would have thought of using it for a top
I wish you had a hands-on luthier school. I enjoyed it very much sir!
Super informative! Find the use of alternative woods very exciting. As a paying customer, my priority would always be sound over looks - especially if it keeps the finished price down. So for me, playability and sonic appeal outweigh everything else.
13:58. Lovely resonance, best of the bunch imo.
Thank you so much for sharing your vast knowledge of wood and bracing and guitar building!! You’ve given me unbelievable encouragement to try my hand at building an instrument!
That's great news and your comment encourages me to put out more and better videos. Enjoy building a guitar and don't forget to start the second one a little before you finish your first.
Fascinating. I am looking at a Guild 12 string acoustic guitar, brand new, made with mahogany top (as well as back and sides). Impressive stats, given its price point under $1000. Interestingly, their lower priced model (not cheap, but next stop down) is a spruce top.
Very cool. I can't wait to hear the final builds and their character. Thank you.
Why didn't I know about you previously?
Love your new (to me) videos and most of all your attitude to Woods.
Here in New Zealand I've been using Kauri, (Agathis Australis) recycled, old growth and 'newly" cut. Matai, (Prumnopitys Taxifolia) NZ Cedar, (Libocedrus Bidwilli) for tops for many years now. They all work. The sound is perfectly acceptable, but different than 'traditional' woods.
The Kauri especially is a wonderful top, has nice sweet tone at low volume and plenty of headroom at the top end. As for Douglas fir, almost invariably I use it for brace wood, all recycled. It's light and extremely strong, can be trimmed and sculpted to fine dimensions while retaining it's strength. Keep thinking outside the square.
That is interesting to me here in Oz, tried many here with silver quandong being the most interesting sound so far, red cedar, incense cedar, King Billy, Huon, bunya, celery top pine all work very well. A friend used Oregon in an arch top, I would try that and Douglas fir too.
In regard to the Douglas Fir, I've seen in very old buildings, mainly Church Steeples and Bell Towers, Douglas Fir used for lintels for the brick masonry work. Sometimes it was shocking that after 150-200 years most of the wood lintels were in excellent condition. We did replace many but almost never was it many per structure. I should add that the older masons new how to keep the weather off the wood lintels by keeping them slightly back in the wall as were the brick layed on the lintel cantilevered outward 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 inches. Most of failures (wood rot) I saw were from poor painting and caulking techniques. I am now retired and miss my work very much.
Im a part time Kiwi hobby builder. Usually I have to use what wood I can get. I've tried a few of our native softwoods, Kauri and Matai for soundboards. They seem to work well. There are a few native hardwoods that seem to work well for backs, sides, necks, bridges and fingerboards. Thanks so much for your vids. They are very interesting and useful.
Kudos to you for using locally available woods. I'm certain that you can make some really nice guitars with them. Enjoy you building.
@@thepragmaticluthier thanks. Just been building a go bar and radius dishes this morning. Sadly im off to say goodbye to an extremely sick and skilled violin and mandolin builder this afternoon.. I have a big bandsaw and cut up my own logs. Im an experimentor. Interested in the what if.. An aging folkie musician. I've spent more than two decades teaching secondary workshop metal and wood well retutef now Thanks so much for your vids. They are really inspiring.
The x bracing on the flatsawn is a must have!
A flat sawn top is not the text book way to orient an instrument top at all, but I'm curious. Why do you assert that an X-brace is so necessary in that context?
Seems that x bracing in this case would be superior to ladder bracing or fan bracing. You disagree?
Is my interpretation of your theory correct; that being that an X-brace on a flat sawn top will resist upward distortion below the bridge and downward above it, better than fan or ladder bracing, especially ladder bracing. There is actually very little difference in stiffness between flat and quarter sawn material, so the bracing pattern may not be of paramount importance with respect to strength. An instrument top is almost always quartered because radial shrinkage and swelling are about half that of flat sawn in any given specie. With respect to bracing patterns for steel string guitars, I have used fan bracing, but my efforts produced an undesirable tone. I'm confident that it works, but I missed the target. As for ladder bracing, I won't touch it. Richard Schneider pointed out that as a brace is rotated closer and closer to a 90 degree angle to the grain of a top, it tends to shut down the transfer of kinetic energy from its position, below the point of excitation of the string, the result being an instrument of demonstrably drier, slightly vapid tone and a recognizable loss of volume. I hope my answer has some value. Your questions certainly invite thoughtful debate. Thank you.
As a woodworker; this is my next venture. I’ve made a new neck and turned a damaged acoustic into a 5 string; but I would like to build the whole guitar and as a new subscriber; I am impressed with your work. Also being from Michigan; I’ve thought why use the so called norm woods for guitars when this state has a variety of interesting species to choose from. Thank you for posting this and other informative videos on this subject. Take care.
Thanks for watching, Great good luck and enjoy using some of those Michigan woods:)
Because I have built other things out of white pine, (not instruments), I wondered why I never see it at luthier supply houses. Thank you and I think it is gorgeous.
I think you don't see Pine at Luthiers' supply companies because it's one of those "no one else sells it so we don't" situations. If enough independent builders use it, or if a manufacturer came looking for it, it would be easily available.
I built an acoustic for a friend who had no money. I used shelving boards from Lowe’s. That was 15 years ago. He still plays it. It was spruce everything. Lol.
the Douglas fur sounds incredible had no idea you can use it . love the grain aswell very interesting
You should try birch sometime. I love the way it sounds. Very clear tones from birch. It's just hard to find in big enough pieces sometimes.
I should try it, but I have to admit that I have an irrational distaste for birch, for no other reason than the fact that it was used ubiquitously in schools, offices, churches and medical facilities throughout the 50"s and 60's. And sadly, all of the plywood was rotary cut, producing a look that was enough to induce vomiting. I'll try to overcome that and make a Birch guitar.
The first one and the last one were the best to me !
The pine and fir are amazing! They’ll probably give beautifully balanced guitars especially in the GA or concert sizes - might be a bit ‘boomy’ for a dreadnaught but I’m considering a GA sized guitar now… and that fir has a chime to it that I think would be amazing for jazz! I don’t have the facilities to make guitars but I do make my own pics out of local NZ hardwoods - and I enjoy not listening to the click of the commercial plastic plectrums; favourite is probably Rimu - followed by Kowhai (a nice creamy wood) - which both take a lovely finish! PS - that butternut is absolutely stunning….
I love what you do on your channel. I follow every post. I’m about to try my first build at the age of 54. What could go wrong😅. So thanks for all your helpful tuition and tip.
You're entirely welcome and I want to wish you a fulfilling and pleasant journey in building guitars.
PLEASE do the follow up vedios. I am really cuorious to know the results of the five guitars. It would be first one of its kind clasic work. Thank you such to share your inspirational ideal and ecperience!
Thanks for the encouragement. It will take several months, but I am committed to demonstrating the finished instruments and doing an objective evaluation of the results. Stay tuned and thanks for watching.
Interesting for sure. The Douglas Fir has me thinking...
Your video was awesome. I'm with you on pine. I don't make guitars yet but I am making ukuleles. As Sitka is getting harder and more expensive, I'm all for considering other options. I'm trying to focus what I make based on the tone woods present in the New England ... primarily NH & ME. I've made several pine top (Eastern White) ukuleles and I can tell you it's a beautiful tone wood. I've started the hunt to see about getting quarter sawn pine, but very few do it or just don't advertise it. Along with the pine, I have access to quite a bit of cherry. My last uke I did the white pine top and used cherry as the sides and the bottom. I also use cherry for the tops as well. The pine with the cherry is awesome. I'm not sure why Cherry has also been over looked, I suspect that it's used more in furniture building. I highly recommend it along with the pine. I'm trying to think outside the box as it's easy to get caught up in what's the flavor of the day and not considering other possibilities. Also I like to work with local mills where I can physically take my time and go through the wood I'm looking for. Though alot of people just flat saw pine, you can get quarter sawn (somewhat) when you flat saw on both sides of the pyth, usually the grain pattern is quarter sawn. Pine is very underated as a wood but yet I've seen some lovely pieces for making instruments.
Do you have a video on just voicing your soundboards? I found your testing the different woods for sound was great. It would be nice to see something even more indepth.
Great video! I'm your list.
I have a 20 year old Norman 12 string with what I think is a cedar top. Lovely guitar. Canadian made.
My first Norman was a B18 I think. Built in the late 70s. Bolt on neck. Played and sounded like a dream.
I’ve been building ukuleles with maple tops for a little while now. You have to make them thinner and adjust the bracing to compensate, but they have a delightfully bright tone…
kevin, you're a breath of fresh air in the youtube luthier community! someday, i'd love to have you build a new mexico native guitar for me. rocky mountain blue spruce top, and i'm not sure which hardwood to consider for the back/sides-would love your thoughts! thanks for all your fantastic information/experience!
I'm not inclined to even sound "commercial" on this forum, but I would be happy to communicate over this issue with at a time of your choosing. You can reach me through my website. Thanks for your positive comment.
I once heard about a legendary guitar made with a cherry top; built by a luthier in the Southeast US who made a guitar for Eric Clapton. Not many people talk about it, and there are no recordings of it, but they say it sounds absolutely wonderful.
Cherry has most of the same specifications of Mahogany...except for the stability. People like Mahogany tops so I can see it being used. I've done back, sides, & neck in cherry and it is beautiful. As one instructor says, "it is all about stiffness and looseness", that is what you need to figure out for each species.I may have to try a cherry top as I have a garage full of that stuff.
I've got a very nice tight grained piece of DF that should yield at least two great tops. Great color as well. I'm looking forward to trying it out. Thanks for another great video.
I'd love to see the follow-up, with the finished instruments.
Stay tuned :)
I'm starting to feel overwhelmed by the variety of data needed to learn from each build. Species used, thicknesses, bracing patterns, and so on. Would you share what data you record from each build - or at least, what data you find most useful in helping you understand how a guitar will be affected by your build choices?
I find your videos quite interesting and even inspirational, Kevin. I'm quite glad you decided to do this. Thank you.
Thank you for this comment in particular. I've done 147 guitars to date and often feel exactly the same way and I KNOW many others do as well. I may try a video to address this very thing, but in the meantime, may I suggest that you pick, even almost at random, a point of departure within known reasonable limits of species, dimensions etc, and enjoy the process because it will serve as a point of departure your YOU personally. And most importantly, remember that it is the joy of the experience that is often greater than the end product. Lastly, refrain from thinking of building a guitar in terms of Martin, Taylor, or whoever is the big name and expert in the field. Enjoy the process and build yourself a guitar or 300.
Some local species I'm curious about - based on little more than the sound made by handling sticks or hewing the logs - are: honey locust
Persimmon
Mulberry
Dogwood
I admire that you heard those suggestions of music in the timber you're using. To me, and I hope you, that mean, build an instrument. You can't go wrong.
Very enjoyable. Thank you 🙏
I applaud your efforts to open minds about non-traditional wood! I predict the white pine will be the loudest.
If the mass of the top is the enemy, and thickness depends on density and stiffness, then there are many species that are better than Sitka Spruce. Using the Gore formula for calculating thickness based on average values of density and stiffness for each species, species that would make better tops than Sitka include (in order):
Eastern White Pine
White Fir
Norway Spruce
Northern White Cedar
Noble Fir
Black Cottonwood
Western Red Cedar
Engelmann Spruce
Japanese Cedar (Sugi)
Paulownia
Lutz Spruce
Balsa
An impressive body of knowledge. I look forward to the day when the science, information and quantifications of Gore, Kasha, French , et al, finally dovetail neatly with the empirical and intuitive traditions of guitar making.
@@thepragmaticluthier Could you give me an example? I'm not sure I know what you mean by not dovetailing.
My grandad 40 yrs ago..made a dreadnought out of poplar and pine..he was a real carpenter ..and his guitar sounded so different
Hey, great video! I have commented before on the use of domestic woods etc, and I love the idea. Especially interested in white pine and white oak, I’m in NC and we have plenty of these in this area. Thanks for all the advice and info you provide with your channel!
White oak is great for back and sides and try white pine if you can find a straight grained quarterbsawn piece preferably old
Another great video Kevin. One of your precious videos on adjusting the placement of bracing to affect the tone is the best I’ve seen on you tube. Regarding the acoustic bass, I have looked everywhere for a build/tutorial series on building and acoustic bass and there isn’t one. Would be great to see yours. Fingers crossed.
I have searched for that same information and have found nothing as well. The bass I'm currently building is only my sixth, so I won't claim expertise, but your suggestion is motivating me to at least take a stab at producing some videos along the way, if nothing else, as a point of departure for others. Thanks for that suggestion.
@@thepragmaticluthier I’ll look forward to seeing them Kevin.
Really interesting, thanks
Those are some very interesting top woods. I know I've heard of a few different to words, including sycamore and Walnut. I'm definitely curious to learn of different options for the tops and sides.
So I'll be curious to hear what these sound like in an instrument.
I much prefer a cedar top, but I'd be happy to try out any kind of wood to see what tones it held.
I have a guitar with a top made of yew. Sounds great; I call the sound “springy.”
Thank you for your insight
I was cutting up some 90 year olf Doug Fir floor joists I salvaged from a school in California and dropped a piece on the floor. I was immediately struck by the musicality of the tone it made. I’ve asked some local luthiers if they have ever used and they hadn’t which struck me too. The sound was undeniably pleasant and it’s plentiful on the west coast so why isn’t it used more often? Still don’t have an answer and I’ve never heard a guitar with a Doug fir top still…
Thanks Kevin, Great video. If you could do a video sometime showing what you mean by loosening or tightening up the bracing and what those changes do that would be helpful. I am especially interested in the Doug Fir because I have that available in my area of the country and I have a few billets of it already.
Thanks for your suggestion. I'll try to bring that to fruition. Good luck and enjoy building in Douglas Fir.
Great video. I too have always been interested alternatives to spruce for tops. I have number potentials on the shelf. Red wood and western cedar among them. Your thoughts on bracing with the idea voicing top, given the material used, was much appreciated. I'm sure you also associate this with the thickness of the top material in question. There always something to learn with each instrument we build.
I like using out of the ordinary woods for guitars. I have always thought that white poplar or tulip poplar would make a excellent top.
I am now completely determined to make a 100% IPE guitar due to its nightmarish hardness and intolerance to workability. It's hard to glue, and is not happy at all about bending. The only way to bend it is to fully submerge it in water for 3 days first. It is almost waterproof from the high oil content. But the tone density is incredible it rings like a glass bell. I'm doing it just beacuse someone said its a terrible idea lol. I am expecting carbon fiber type tone.
Thirty years ago, a luthier told me that Douglas Fir cannot be used for a guitar top and it was for that reason that I immediately started one. I admire your attitude and approach. Don't listen to the cork sniffers, pursue you notions. I'll bet you're going to get a really nice guitar out of this.
@@thepragmaticluthier Thanks for the encouragement. I am just the type that has to do something because someone said I can't.
It just makes it that much more challenging, and the satisfaction is two fold.
Great content sir ! I really enjoy it.
Enjoyed the video! I really liked the sound of Douglas Fir through my headphones. Have you ever thought trying something even more unusual, such as a hardwood like say curly maple? I recently watched a video of a guitar Taylor made with a maple top. I was wondering if Butternut is similar to maple? Cheers!
I'm looking at trying several different hardwood tops, possibly this winter. I have been so busy with commissions and some furniture projects in my house, I haven't had time to build myself a guitar. It's getting to be a serious problem; I haven't had a new guitar in over a year. Woe is me.
⚓️ Thanks Kevin 🌈 Great video, learned a lot 😎
Unfortunately, at 360 quality video, most of it is blurry.
Your comment causes me to wonder if you would make disparaging comments about the mashed potatoes at a free Thanksgiving dinner. My apologies that what I share isn't up to your standards.
You show the tops, which is of great interest to me, but I cannot see the grain due to the low quality video. Surely it is not beyond the realms to film in greater resolution for the benefit of all? Sorry if I came across as disparaging - I could perhaps have put it better, but was so dissapointed in the visuals, I gave up watching. I am tho, subscribed and do like your content, a lot. @@thepragmaticluthier
Thank you it’s very informative on how you listen to tops ❤🎸🎸☮️🖖
What Duke Ellington said…”If it sounds good, IT IS good.”
Also to answer one question you raised…Allied Lutherie (Adam Buchwald in Vermont) has recently sold beautiful old growth Douglas Fir tops made from resawn Catholic School bleachers. Ken Parker has everything good to say about Douglas Fir. I wish I could get my hands on some of it here in Alabama easier.
If you have a high end lumber yard in your area, you may be able to buy quarter sawn Douglas Fir stair treads. If so, that's your ticket.
The Douglas fir sounds great. It has the kind of ring that classical guitars need. I'm glad to see the consideration of white pine. The town I live in was a white pine forest. They are being brought down regularly. Four-piece top? If it was good enough for Torres, it's good enough for me! Thanks.
Thanks for your comment, especially for the section about Torres. I think builders everywhere need to revisit this sort of information and allow it to influence their thinking.
That Douglas fir has a nice bell like tone. I'm not a luthier or a player. However, I do find the artistry of gituar making and musicians playing them fascinating. So, to the novice, what do you mean by sawn top versus split top? 2ndly, if the board is wide enough, is there any reason not to make the top from a single wide board versus two glued bookmarked pieces? I'd presume from listening to your video about laminated necks the glued 2, 3, 4 piece tops have greater stability and less chance of warpage? Thanks for these videos. You make excellent points. I think the quartersawn cherry and sycamore lumber is beautiful. Have you tried any American persimmon?
Thank you for your comment and your question. Split tops begin as billets of wood literally split from short (approximately two feet long) log sections, similar to the way firewood is split. These billets, as seen from the end look roughly like a slice of pie. The reason for splitting them is to glean a surface that follows the natural growth line of the tree as closely as possible. The billets are then sliced on a bandsaw, with each pair of adjacent slices collected as two-piece tops.
"Sawn" tops are taken from boards and planks which often have "runout". The growth lines cross the edge of the sawn board at an angle, sometimes acceptable and sometimes not at all. This happens in sawn lumber because it is impossible (and wasteful) to saw boards perfectly parallel to the taper of a log. Sawn tops with too much runout are less desirable. they refract light differently when they are re-sawn and book matched. If runout is too severe it will also affect strength but this would be a rare occurrence in sawn tops..
There are some one-piece tops available for luthierie, but they are rare because of their width. There is also an argument to be made that a one piece top is less consistent than a two-piece book matched top, that is, the growth rings in a one piece top will vary in width from sapwood to heartwood, more than a matched two-piece top, making a one-piece top somewhat less consistent in its physical and therefore, tonal characteristics.
As I watch these videos and glean what knowledge I can, I was happy to see you had a four piece top. Would you ever join multiple species of wood for a top?
At the age of 18, I met C.F. Martin III, who told me: "You could make a guitar top in ten pieces if you braced it right." I never forgot that and i have made tops with as many as 9 pieces. I suggest that you try whatever your imagination, intuition, and materials lead you to do. And ENJOY the experience.
Hi PL. I’ve use poplar with great success for soundboards,
ALL RIGHT! I'll have to try that myself.
@@thepragmaticluthier according to wood database, poplar, janka hardness 540 lbft, elastic modulas 1.5million lbft.
Sitka spruce, JH, 510, EM 1.6 million lbft.
i like your thinking!....im using some Queensland maple ...a great timber for necks and back and sides.....the next few guitars i make will have Quilted Queensland Maple tops!!!...
That sounds like a great idea! Myself, I'm looking forward to starting a Sycamore top. I have seen and heard a guitar done with it and can't resist the temptation to try it myself.
Interested to hear how that went, how much thinner?
I have a torrefied cypress/yellow cedar top. Great tap tone. Quite stiff, very straight tight grain. Can’t decide what type or size guitar to use it for.
The bast way to decide is to not over-think the issue. The width of the top you have is the only limitation. Decide what size guitar you want to make and proceed with dispatch. It's the best and quickest way to learn you and it can do. Build yourself a nice one:)
I have used poplar and it sounds good
Im a pro woodworker and Im sorting out pine 2x4’s that are used to stack up packs of wood, need 5 of them, glue them, saw them, and then I got material for an archtop
Im looking out for knotfree, tight and straight grain, its not common
Robert Benedetto did something very similar and made a guitar that was excellent by every measure. I hope you make a great one too.
Redwood (Coastal) makes a great classical and steel string instrument.
I just bought a brand new Alvarez Yairi DYM74, which features a Redwood top with East Indian Rosewood back and sides. It's amazing.
Great inspiration Kevin...am about to start my first scratchbuilt acoustic, after repairing them for many years. Am 68 now. Any opinion on yellow cedar for tops ? Have been told by experienced guys that it is good for back & sides, or classical. I like to experiment on steel string build. Might even try ladder bracing with top on the thin side, as the YC is pretty strong stuff. Have a soft spot for my old Harmony SOVEREIGN 1260. Wonderful unique tone IMHO. Thanks
I have limited but very positive experience with Yellow Cedar tops. I think it could be ventured that if you build within reasonably known limits of thickness and brace height, toucan't go wrong with it. Personally, I avoid ladder bracing in a top. Richard Schneider claimed that a brace placed at 90 degrees across a top, tends to shut them down. On the other hand, the Larrivee guitars are very successful and considered among the best. Go figure.
@@thepragmaticluthier Thanks for reply. I am from Larrivee country....Victoria B.C., Canada. Very successful up here ! I find the SOVEREIGNs to be amazing tone wise, but are usually bellied. Most need neck reset. I leave the tops as they are usually stable after 50 or so years. There is a school of thought where some redo them with X - bracing...not a fan. A Sovie has beautiful singing highs & muted bass. It is my preference as l do a lot of melody picking over chords, on the higher strings. Heavy bass, just muddies things up IMO. It is what it is....why change it ? Hope you have a chance to try one someday. Thanks again
Acoustic guitar tops are the speaker cones of the guitar, just like those recycled compressed paper cones in speakers reproducing guitar music. How many people tap on speaker cones to figure out how well they will reproduce guitar sounds? Bracing is the key to finished guitar tone (you already mentioned changing bracing patterns during builds). Drive under highway bridges and railway bridges and look at the depths of the I-beams.Depth of the beam is more important to support loads (or reproduce sounds) than the tops since beam height or depth is a cubed factor in the engineering equations. A 3mm top cannot hold string tension like the 12mm braces under them, and carefully shaving those braces thinner is what many do to alter the sensitivity of the guitar sound (where 'cheap factory' guitars just use un-shaven bracing bars due to time). One example out there: the Obrien Guitars channel made a cardboard guitar and it sounded good -- not far from compressed paper speaker cone materials assuming bracing ends are fixed to the sides. Accurate thickness comparisons (and uniformity) of the tops when tapping them along with plate length and width plus with/without sound hole are the tonal variations of tapping tops alone, more so than the wood. Take a look at Marimba tuning, they gouge away wood from the back side until they hit the note they are after. Because guitar tops are so thin to start, sanding variation at three decimal places can be impactful (any thickness variation is cubed). I like your pragmatic approach and see you have some other investigative style videos on your channel I'll have to take a look at. Thanks!
Thanx for the shows!
I heard one time about a luthier that used Sassafras wood. Have you ever tried it? I also heard it smells good when being dimensioned. Thanks.
Very interesting stuff
Very inspiring video. is it important that the back be of hard wood an the top from a softer wood? Or any combination can do? Thanks
You can build in any combination of materials that comes to mind. General;y, a softer, less dense back will lend warmth and richer bas to an instrument while a dense material will be more percussive, punchier. Think of a D18 as opposed to a D28 for example. You can use hardwoods for tops as well. Harder woods, more dense tops will make a more drastic change in tone and volume. Basically, more dense will be crisp, even lacking some richness and may cost the instrument some volume. Still, experiment. There are may guitars with hardwood tops of Sycamore, Osage Orange and many more. You may also want to search out Dick Boak's all Spruce guitars. They are fascinating instruments.
Would you consider redwood one sinker redwood tops? A classic pairing would be with many varieties of walnut…local North American woods correct?
Any variety or version of Redwood is as viable as an instrument top as any other provided that it can handle the tresses in the contact of its use. Your choice of Walnut and Redwood seems to be purely an aesthetic one and that's perfectly legitimate and to my eye, would be very handsome. If, however, you consider the instrument, its specifications, circumstances of use, and your tonal goal, Walnut may or may not be your best choice.
The butternut top is very nice! It looks like it`s part flat sawn and rift sawn (45 degree of vertical). Will the expension needs to be taken into consideration? I thought that a top required to be true quartersawned . thanks!
Robert Benedetto made an arch top guitar with a flat sawn SPF 2X10. He said it was equal to any guitar he made with respect to sound. I think rift or flat sawn coniferous tops are not used because they are unsightly, that is; they don't look "guitar-esque".
The possibility of runout in a flat sawn top may be a matter of concerning of course, tangential shrinkage. Deciduous tops, however seem to be exempt from all of those considerations. I would always want to make sure that the tangential shrinkage rate of any given specie is tolerable before use, but of grater concern would be the tonal character that a deciduous top would deliver. I would be much more concerned with that than anything else. Maple can't shake like Butternut and Butternut can't shake like Spruce.
Would a spalted hardwood work as a sound board? What about sapwood from cherry or walnut? Just thinking of less dense versions of US hardwoods that could have interesting tonal properties.
Spalted wood is hard to trust because it is, in reality, minimally rotted. At the dimensions instrument parts are made, i would be reluctant to trust it. It is true that sapwood is less dense than heartwood, but getting enough of it to make a guitar top would probably require an eight or ten piece top; difficult but not impossible. While I wouldn't try it, it may be an idea with contemplation and worthy of at least some experimentation.
Wow. Haha. I had a ball sir. Deep respect for you and your craftsmanship. But I love timber and wood work .
The differences in tonal qualities is distinct. Where to brace though ? Please excuse my ignorance.
Bc I would imagine that once applied, I would think that bracing for stress reduction would change the acoustic properties of the timber ? Possibly making it worse not better. On the other hand, it may have a positive effect. How do you gauge this dance ? Is it by ‘knowing’ or by feel ? Or ?? What ? Cheers
You've brought up excellent questions that a case full of books can't answer completely or satisfactorily. There is lots of science and even more theory on the whole wood and bracing thing. In the nutshell, it's easy to imagine that a guitar top made too thick or braced too heavily will be quiet and not at all pleasing, but strong. the opposite end of the scale would be structural failure. it is between those extremes that guitar making exists.
Gerard gilet wrote a two volume book and therein is the treasure trove for understanding what a good guitar tone is, cannot recommend it enough. Trevor Gore has contributed lots to the Australia new deal and luthiers forum too, don’t let the equations put you off modal tuning works.
Ok....I'm addicted. Subbed
Thanks. I appreciate your participation.