Yeah, Lost Caverns is more of a mini-campaign than a scenario if you play it right. And as someone in his 50s whose been playing since it was just plain "Dungeons and Dragons" let me say you're absolutely right about wanting dungeons to have some internal logic. Some of us have been saying that since the Carter administration.
One thing I’ve noticed with Gygax modules is that they tend to be meat grinders (especially those made for Con’s) that may explain the monsters so close together without really interacting with their environment, even though they’ve been there for generations.
Yeah, this one suffered from Convention Contest Module syndrome - there was all kinds of stuff crammed together. But even back in the 80s there were Dragon Magazine articles about dungeon ecology (and including toilets and water sources) so it was a thing to design for logic back then.
i re-read the module; it's surprising how much ecology is included. "there's a chimney, the Dracolisk gets out and hunts sometimes outside" kinda stuff, but you could logic out the ecology of the zoo... i mean, there's a river! that water goes somewhere maybe
I totally agree! As much as Kilmer chews up the screen sometimes in it & the story can feel a little slow, it was much better than folks give it credit for. I mean, Labryinth had the same general set style and look how it turned out....
Once the Yag-zay appeared, our M-U cast an illusion of the Negative energy one and had it flee down a corridor. Once it followed the illusion, he then cast "wall of stone' to seal it off. We still lost most of the non-magic treasures though. And forgot to mention, we played just weeks after it came out.
Another interesting to note about this module is that, before publication, this wasn't earmarked for S4, but rather WG3, and would've fit between The Village of Hommlet & The Temple of Elemental Evil and The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun. The module that would've been S4, Dwellers of the Forbidden City, eventually became I1, sharing its series with Ravenloft and Desert of Desolation, as well as the previously reviewed Tomb of the Lizard King.
Oh, and there was a 3.5e update to this module under the name Iggwilv's Legacy for Dungeon magazine, and is freely downloadable, which can be worth a look for DMs looking for a different take on the classic.
Notes from a NG human Idiot; Greetings from lovely Restenford(only 9 more days left till AllBlessed Day)! This(alongside Tomb of Horros & White Plum Mountain) was the backbone of the only Campaign i was a player in before i became a DM, so i've fond memories of Tsojcanth(it's pronounced Tsojcanth with the j being silent, fyi. I think it's Yiddish, but am uncertain). I actually managed to talk the Vampire Dreth down from attacking by applying to her Vanity(it helped that i treated her like one of my Noble peerage). She even helped us take out the two end monsters for a cut of the loot & safe passage to Iuz, i still get letters from her occasionally... May your pantheon ever favor you Baron Trevelyan of Restenford
It always amuses me when I hear "old timers" saying they never complained or commented on the crazy dungeons. That's bs. Of course they (we) commented and complained. We would see a Gary module and roll our eyes, but we played it anyway. It was fun. But I know that I and other DMs would make changes to the modules as needed to make them either more enjoyable or playable. Great video.
Much of this probably stems from Effort Justification, that colors their memories of not just what playing DnD in that era was like, but how much actual enjoyment they got from doing it that way. Those players whose DMs ran the adventures as-is were subject to grueling, unfair, and sadistic scenarios. They remember it all fondly in the same way that people who were part of college fraternities fondly remember things, despite (indeed, _because_ of) having undergone hard and humiliating hazing rituals. They want to feel as though their suffering was worth it, so they emotionally deepen their commitment to it, and their memory (which is always more reconstructive than recording) shifts to emphasize the fun they had and de-emphasize the suffering.
It’s funny. I first bought S4 in 1983 and for some reason have glossed over the xeg-yi and xeg-ya every time I’ve looked at this adventure, and always thought Drelzna was the final monster. Nearly 27 years later, I learn the truth 😜 Great review. Really enjoying your channel!
Seth I've watched all your content, but I sub for the ad & d reviews. Absolutely love them because I feel like I get a reliable voice on something I never got to experience. Its like a 20 minute vicarious playthrough. Anyway, hope you're well and merry Christmas!
@@SSkorkowsky May I give some advice then? Don't accept money for your vids/channel. If a sub of mine donated (let's say 200$) and made a request, I would definitely feel obligated to take the request. You don't want to become a D&D shill like AJ Pickett
One thing I love about your reviews is how you pick the nuggets of goodness out of them so that it shows DMs useful tools that they can use when preparing: -- 2:15 designing for player level vs. character level can also mean that the DM can shape player level by giving them certain experience in their scenarios -- 3:09 create new kinds of monsters and or obstacles that players have not yet seen in order to keep things fresh/preserve mystery and develop player experience; 10:57 can give you new ideas for rooms (i.e., encounters, a.k.a. problems to solve), you can also get them from other places -- 4:11 set up rival groups that operate on their own "AI" to accomplish their goals as a meanwhile that challenges the party by instilling a sense of urgency for sticking with the mission (the reduce fucking around) with time and/or creates interesting clashes for the party -- I'd add to generate when dumbass disrespectful murder hobos/unheroic criminals run roughshod over the DM's world and create new enemies -- 5:17 give players handouts with clues on them and put some extra effort into making them look authentic; -- 5:55 wilderness maps with squares marked for events/encounters are useful (my note, which my players loved -- you should also consider making a "game within a game" for navigating that map with rules for the time it takes to go from one hex to another and a table with risk of getting lost/what happens when lost, and the chance for other random encounter/problem to deal with each time you move onto a new hex; 13:35 has one idea for dungeons, but when in the wilderness it is also often good for them to not even know that they are lost and let them wander around until they can figure it out -- the players track where they think they are, the DM tracks where they actually are ,and when they don't arrive at a known point, they know they are lost -- 10:47 make a cheat sheet for your monsters (I do this for both planned encounters and for the random encounter table, if I use one every time they go onto a new hex, which has the effect of making it so they will stay focused on their objective instead of doing unnecessary things that waste resources (time -- which you absolutely must track because as time ticks the mission might fail or the rent becomes due for these professional adventurers plus they lose spells & hit points & potentially make enemies who will go after them for the rest of the campaign if they act like idiots) At the same time, you criticize its bad points so that people cab remedy them, such as: --3:45 -- publishing secrets & surprises destroys their mystique means you need too look for ideas outside the D&D realm such as other games/history/fantasy lit to keep things fresh -- 8:18 -- poor dungeon ecology (which I commented on yesterday,; nothing more to say here) -- 12:23 -- beware of party splits that make it so that many players are sitting at the table doing nothing for extended periods of time (players, you need to pay attention to this too -- when you are seeking individualistic goals instead of working together with your team toward a common end, you run the risk of ruining the game for everyone else who has to sit around while you dominate the table; DMs have to shut this kind of selfish player down or expel them from the group). Lastly, you don't completely hype it with overproduced, cheerleady bullshit and stupid facial expressions/overexcited tone of voice (which might have the consequence of making it less appealing to a young audience that has grown up not knowing much other than internet-age hype) except when you play the persona of the various "players" for comical effect. It has the lo-fi DIY appeal of punk rock that screams "TRUTH according to Skorkowski" and "You can do it too!" Even when I see people who are just a little too self-deprecating, it comes across as a ruse to seek a geek chic coolness that annoys the fuck out of me.
This was fun to revisit now that WotC has announced they will reprint Lost Caverns as part of another anthology. Criticisms are on point here and many stem from the module's tournament roots. Delaying play at the table and splitting the party were features in that context. Your point about novelty can't possibly be overstated. In some ways, we can never return to Tsojcanth. I want to give a shout out to Jim Holloway for doing both great interior work on this AND gently spoiling the green slime encounter on the back cover. Great details!
well done "Taco cot." Yes please... one of my fave modules /series of the old way. Back when we homebrewed Jedi knights. 1977. What a year!l my thanks to TSR, Blondie and The Clash.
I personally love looting older adventures like these for cool dungeon maps. Saves me a ton of time when building adventures for my campaigns since most of my players haven’t experienced these.
@@dubuyajay9964 WotC didn't ruin it. D&D 3.5 is by far my favorite edition, and I've played them all from the original game all the way to 5e. TSR was however much more willing to experiment and try out new settings and ideas. I'm still sad barely anyone remembers Birthright.
One of my favorite modules when I was a kid. Funny the best way to "win" might be too just camp out for a few weeks and let all the monsters starve or check the room next door and eat each other.
I sometimes wonder how much tea the Skorkowsky household goes through just from tea-staining handouts. Also, yes; dungeon ecology has bothered me for decades. I'm happy to hear you talk about it.
Yeah, I remember questioning that kind of ecology in the early 90s, and I wasn't alone. One argument at the time was, well, computer games can get away with that but we have to do better. Now of course, even computer games do it better, so we've got no excuse.
I once wrote a 30 page manual on dwarven mining safety regulations just to justify the layout of my dungeon in my own head. I only ever showed the manual to my wife many years later. Her response? "Yep, that's totally something you would do."
That talk has a long history, the earliest version of it I know of was back in the 1980's when White Dwarf was a general gaming zine. Issue 27 ran an article on Dungeon design and general gaming tips that still has (IMHO) value to this day.
Thank you so much for that end bit! It gave me warm flashbacks to an episode of The (animated) Tick where he faces off against Thrackazog (Laxative log, three yaks and a dog, Susan...)
To update the Xeg-Yi's item destroying properties, I would take the Rust Monster as an example for any non-magical items, dealing -1 penalties to the use of these types of items and being completely destroyed by the time it's at a -5, which can be adjusted to deal penalties faster should the need be for higher-level parties. For magical items, there are a few ideas to be had. An immediate effect of this could be a turn-long disabling of the item's effects, as the negative energy is scrambling the magic in the items. Any items with charges could also begin depleting upon further exposure to the Xeg-Yi's attacks. That's a quick hot-fix on ideas to incorporate the creature to update them based on just sorta first-instinct.
Great video- dungeon ecology has bothered me since 1981- most TSR modules were monster condominiums- all of the creatures are held in suspended animation until the players arrive - OSR feeds off this concept- i find it bothersome
Yep. When I was starting, about the same time as you, the daft ecologies really pushed me away from running D&D. Which is fine, it encouraged me to go find other great games that suited me better.
Nameless Jedi Those are the same thing. When something is wrong with it in someone’s opinion, it still counts as something wrong. It’s just not inherently or objectively wrong, because it could be right in someone else’s opinion.
It has to do with how the game was originally played. It was simply dungeon exploration and challenges. Treasure and defeating monsters were the only way you got experience to level up. The game has changed A LOT over the years.
A good example of a dungeon with ecology is the Tomb of Abysthor from Frog God Games. It can be found in the Stoneheart Valley module which is on sale right now (May 2021.) It's very detailed and challenging fun! (p.s. A review would be great!)
Being one of those old fart DM's from the 70's, I can say for my part, i did run a world with plausible reasons for monsters to be there. And i did eliminate some of the monsters from this overcrowded dungeon just as you adocated. Great review.
Who knew that a material relative of my first D&D familiar would have gotten humans to invent the internet so they could have TH-cam. As a minor consolation I now know how to pronounce Tsojcanth, and people say magic isn't real...
Death on the Reik set my expectations for handouts... Some awesome clues in there and well over 100 letters, maps and so forth to hand to the players - it's great to see players sorting through their stockpile looking for a reference :-)
I haven’t played D&D sense the early 90’s. I’ve played a lot of other games and now run Pathfinder. That being said, I love watching these videos and getting fantastic ideas for my own campaigns and characters. Thank you for your videos.
Ah yes, a classic from the days of Erol Otus artwork. Pointy and somewhat impressionist. Thank you for clearly telling us how OLD this module is that came out when I was a teenager. I feel ancient.
Love this adventure we tried this about 30 years ago. Out of a party of 7 mine was the only survivor by drinking a potion of diminuation & turning invisible ! We basically lined up one by one to fight the vampire, instead of teaming up ! Ffs
I ran this module only a couple of times but ended up using this as a resource for the basis for most of my future AD&D encounters. And apparently I've forgotten more about this module than I realized.
I still remember one of my DMs describing the room as 10x10 and containing three ogres. I turned my head to the side and gave him the “Huh? WtF?” Look. He didn’t get it …
@@Leftists_are_LosersI doubt the ogre would have any kind of mood to fight at that point, just one of them give a finger handshake and let you be on your way
Easy way to deal with item saving throws for 5E is to just use the rarity as a power reference for the item. generic magic items save on 15 or better uncommon items save on 10 or better. rare items save on 5 or better. legendary items are immune. Something like that would work easy. I know that rarity isn't necessarily supposed to equate directly to power, but it does often enough and this is just a quick idea to adapt a thing without having to spend too much time on it. You could also use that as a base to set DCs, think a particular rare item would hold up a little better? Make it 3, a little worse? Make it 7, etc. etc. In the end you just need to make a decision and nobody can really call you wrong.
I always thought the best thing about this module was Daoud's Wondrous Lanthorn, one of the coolest unique treasures to show up in D&D's products (and frankly nearly artifact-level in its powers).
I think the best way to explain the ecology is that while giants, beetles, troglodytes, etc. are indicative of the types of monsters typically found in the cavern setting, the other Greater monsters only "warp in" - courtesy of Iggwilv's magic - when a party enters the cavern they are attuned to. When the cavern is not disturbed it is in fact totally empty. Given that the Xeg - Yi/Ya follow this principle it makes sense.
Well, the hermit's words make me think an enterprising GM could have this cavern actually BE a planar nexus -- if each room had an active portal (presumably created by Iggwilv) that the resident monster uses to come and go from their plane of origin, it could serve as the core of a whole campaign once the current guards were cleared out.
Wow, great review! As always. I agree with you about the ecologies of dungeons, and yeah, the monty hall, fun house dungeons always bothered me. I'd ask, how does this thing survive when it's in a sealed room? How did this enormous monster make it into this tiny space, and once again, how does it survive? I'd always reimagine the dungeon, sometime completely repopulating it, and then develop a backstory as to why and how they came to be there. One thing is for certain, though; Gary Gygax had an epic back story for all his modules, and he was teasing us with the narrative and subtext of his campaign. Ya gotta love him for that; Iuz, Iggwilv, Grazz't, Eclavdra and the EEG, Lolth, and the ToEE. What else might he have revealed had he published more with TSR?
I ran this as a Gamma World set. Changed it to an underground Bunker (think "Raccoon City"). The characters entering it were a Hoop Samurai, named Mayor Brandy Bloodeyes (performing a worldwide Hide-and-seek, to prevent anyone else from being elected to replace him) - who would do a standing backflip (30-foot vertical jumping), rip a guy's head off, catch it on his landing, hand it to another player, and say things like "Never say I never give you nothin", then turn to their gunslinger Doctor, hand him writing paper (The Hare couldn't write), and say "Now weeth pafawm da Hiaku" (speech impediment from extended-frequency hearing), because the doctor agreed to do the writing for it. The next player was Doctor Walker (can't remember his first name), who was an ancestral member of the Texas Rangers, A good surgeon/medical scientist, who could make gunpowder, and various explosives. He carried a sidearm modeled after the .45 Blackhawk punkin Ball. I realized the parallels much later. Third player. Mutated plant named "Cole Slaw", that carried a twin-mini rapid fire double barrel lazer, had sonic damage mutation, small hooks, and a sort of tendril that could dig into the skull and drink the brain/spinal fluids of victims. A completely ruthless killing machine that ate brains. Fourth player was a Sleeth "Alli" (as in Alli Gator). She was a Sleeth that could lie. A psion, trained to infiltrate and spy/assassinate rival tribes. A shaman (Anderson?) that could perform illusions, and had telekenetic powers, using a log, or pair of logs, to pound on people, as though the illusions were real. Then there was the Ninja, named Church. A nanite infected Human from the Japanese Yakuza (far from home). There were a few Badder henchmen that were training under the doctor. The ghosts were projected force field holograms, directed from a LAN WiFi, which the masks (whichever ones worked) could tap into. The masks being AI with brainscan technology, and record-keeping abilities. Again, think Raccoon City, with an AI that has problems, and three nukes, ready to burn the infections off of the map. It controlled long-term hibernation caskets, one of which held a "Jesuit Priest", that turned loos experimental animals that were carrying plagues. Specifically, walking and talking cats, which he was unwilling to allow to be subjected to further experiments. Although thought to be a foreign sabateur, he was an actual Jesuit scientist who had had enough. Both groups were trying to shut down and dismantle the nuclear apparatus, and take in AI parts for a different AI on the West Coast. Oh, did I mention a beast man with the head of a jackal ("Annubis") was carrying the mental imprint of the Jesuit Priest? Overlaid on top of the mutant's mind (having trouble remembering his name). Having both memories, he was so squirrely that he wanted revenge on "Poncho Pilates" for the murder of Christ. They had to run him down to disable the nuclear devices (three). They were in competition with the "Thought Masters", the "Thule Society", the factions living there, and an off-world AI, from Mars, that was trying to recoup various facilities. The Baron that had sent the party there was a land-bound Telepathic octopus that, although technically insane, with a form of territorial aggression, really liked Alli and trusted the Doctor. It's tough to trust a plant symbiote that would attach itself to one of your mounts and eat its brain (eventually). Anyway. Getting the factions together was difficult. Surprising them with what their god was manufacturing down there, and getting it through to them about the nuclear facility dangers. . . Wasn't easy. The final raid on the creature of the enemy faction was a bloodbath with the fires of hell in it. I don't remember much of it, but Brandy Bloodeyes was hilarious.
I used to buy pretty much everything that TSR put out back in the day (80's and 90's), and one campaign in the early 00's I dusted this one off and decided to run it as a 2e adventure for my gaming group (we didn't have the $$ to drop on the new 3.0 stuff that was coming out). When they got to the room with the vampire, I read the description and one of the players said "Wait a minute!" then grabbed the Player's Handbook and turned to a page in the Classes section. "Does it look like this?" Sure enough, we had all seen that picture a million times. Too funny. I had lost some of the inserts for that module so I didn't realize it was the same picture.
I don't know about you, but when my high school group played this in the 90's, we just kinda gave up and just started calling it "The Lost Caverns". And, yes, we left the caverns naked too.
So, now that you mentioned mapping in the video, how do you handle player mapping dungeons? How do your players map out dungeons, with out grinding your game to a halt? How do you as a DM inform players about their surroundings in order to help them map things out? What tips do players need to know to keep their maps legible?
The original version put out with Metro Detroit Gamers emphasized that the place was a nexus of parallel realities. The parties in the second tournament round would be made from one player chosen from each of the original groups in the tourney.
The Ecology aspect you pointed out also had me scratching my head over when it came out. Some aspects of AD&D modules just didn't make since. Like an adult Dragon in a cavern with no possible exits to support it's size or a lone Harpy in the center of a Kobold Warren. But, Hell the 14 year old me (in 1982) quickly forgot about logic, when it came to descriptions of all of the new creatures and the Fantastical locations, this module had to offer.
I always felt this module was sort of "cash in" for the new AD&D books that Gygax wrote in early 80s, especially Monster Manual 2. A lot of the monsters in MM2 appeared for the first time in this module (Behir, Chasme demon, etc).
Loved that one too! I also expanded the outdoor maps to more mini-dungeons and encounters. We played off the pair of TSR modules and map for almost 9-10 years.
I miss these old school adventures with names generated by throwing Scrabble tiles on the floor 😂. But why don’t modern modules have fold out maps anymore? Such a handy accessory...hey, I had no idea that this scenario was the source for so much of 2nd ed art! That’s amazing!
Played this as a player character in ‘83. After weeks of play we all (barely) made it to Drelnza’s chamber and there all but one of the player characters were killed. My character was that fool who slid down the curved walls eager ‘save’ Drelnza. I knew it was a mistake but it had to be done. Anyway, to me this module is not as outwardly obvious as an S series dungeon but it definitely plays like an S series dungeon. My characters also died in White Plume Mountain, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks and Tomb of Horrors. LOL
One of my favorite adventures. I ran this one in middle school first. My copy says the vampire does 1D64 points of damage. That was a good way to get rid of crappy players. To this day I still have the picture of her on the dias framed on my wall. I never could pronounce it either as a kid. Somenhow ended up calling it "so-jathus" now i pronounce it "Tso-Canth" which feels right.
I used the j as a y sound. I ran this adventure, and I had to modify it. Some of those traps are all kinds of nasty: I often think of that star-chamber trap even today, trying to figure out how a player should have worked it out. Still, it was amazing for it's time.
When I played this module I remember liking it from its technical stand point, cool map, cool monsters, good art, but when we played it out the module lacked "personality".
I am trying to think of how I can transition this over to use in Pathfinder since that is the system I learned how to DM on. And I love your channel, I have learned a lot of things that have helped me out as a new DM.
In regard to those last two monsters, it seems to me like since one is a being of negative energy and the other is positive energy, then the two of them would be natural enemies. I wonder if the original intent was for the players to release both of them (either at the same time or one first, then the other as they frantically dig through the treasure looking for something to fight the first monster with) and then induce them to fight and destroy one another.
Darn! On my Channel, I was going to do a review of the S4 Mod, but Seth has beaten me to it! I guess I will have to switch to another D&D Module, in order to not be in competition with Seth. :-O
When I first read this module 30+ years ago I too had the same reaction. Too many monsters of a wide and incoherent variety within a small space. Many of them can be handwaved away and given an agenda to make their presence plausible. Some can't. I suggest simply eliminating those that don't fit and/or replacing them with ones that do. Another problem was the vampire in the spherical room. Her first priority upon awakening (and seeing a fully armed and tough group around her) is escaping the dungeon to the outside world. I would suggest to any GM that she do whatever she can to fool the adventurers and hide her true nature. Then make a run for it when she can. Yes, she is a tough opponent and you can use that at a critical moment. But really escape and hiding and waiting until she has learned about the world would be paramount. Safety first!
This thing had brought us to our knees recently. To the point our Cleric Urlich had a faith conversion, that is yet to be played out and could be devastating. Tournament play modules are absolutely brutal and NOT our cup of tea. Wow
I saw the video and knew about the series and thought it was traveler, saw the name and thought it was Call of Cthulu, but no it's D&D, I can't complain however because it's good stuff.
My DM used to use that module to kill and punish us on a regular basis. It is a sadistic DM's dream. We never made it even close to the conclusion. We were pretty decent players too. This was back in the ancient days of the mid 80's.
I love your videos as well as the ones Dungeon Craft puts out. As far as new monsters go and how this was great for its day, I never use a stock monster from DnD. An orc in my world would vary from encounter to encounter - Some with more HP, AC, or player classes. I nearly wiped my 1st lvl group with 3 orc 1st lvl rangers. I just played them as a ranger would be played.
Even the original AD&D modules are sometimes newer than other modules, like those from Judges Guild. Initially TSR didn't have many modules available and only the World of Greyhawk for AD&D but they gradually added them. I have fond memories of those years, we felt we were part of something new, something which was developing around us. When I saw the title to this video I read is as "The Lost Caverns of Thracia. No, that's not what he wrote... " en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Caverns_of_Thracia
@@MyersSgt I have seen it listed as 'S5' before, which makes sense as its in the same continental map hex and the outdoor part takes off directly from the outdoor map of 'S4'.
Yeah, Lost Caverns is more of a mini-campaign than a scenario if you play it right. And as someone in his 50s whose been playing since it was just plain "Dungeons and Dragons" let me say you're absolutely right about wanting dungeons to have some internal logic. Some of us have been saying that since the Carter administration.
I heard that Dungeon of the Mad Mage's 5E update did a lot to address this, although I haven't play it myself.
Yeah, that peanut farmer’s dungeons made absolutely no sense!
I had the entire S series. S1 was just plain aweful. S3 blew my mind "Holy Shit !!! A spaceship' 😄
And here I thought freeing elf hostages and building houses for Troglodytes was a cool idea.
One thing I’ve noticed with Gygax modules is that they tend to be meat grinders (especially those made for Con’s) that may explain the monsters so close together without really interacting with their environment, even though they’ve been there for generations.
"Old players didn't give a damn about plausible dungeon ecology"
Old AD&D player here saying "yes, yes we did".
Yeah, this one suffered from Convention Contest Module syndrome - there was all kinds of stuff crammed together. But even back in the 80s there were Dragon Magazine articles about dungeon ecology (and including toilets and water sources) so it was a thing to design for logic back then.
I personally find this adventure tsoj-tsoj
Oh, I like that one 🧐
Even Tim Kask rags on the ecology of the early dungeons. Something about " lets go killing at the zoo ". So yeah, not a new gripe.
Shhh, like impeachment
It all falls apart if you question it
@@Tony-dh7mz fair point.
It’s more a gripe of certain kinds of people. Some are bothered, some aren’t.
Nameless Jedi That can be said for most criticisms of any kind of media, lol. Doesn’t make the critique less valid.
i re-read the module; it's surprising how much ecology is included. "there's a chimney, the Dracolisk gets out and hunts sometimes outside" kinda stuff, but you could logic out the ecology of the zoo...
i mean, there's a river! that water goes somewhere maybe
He’s other way of measuring how good an adventure is if there is a toilet in the module
This is true.
Yes, I think I remember toilets or privys in the first level of Ruins of Undermountain.
I've been to the lost caverns of Chipotle. A place of true horror!
One of the hottest adventuring locations
Theme restaurants are the true hell.
Yeah, I know! In the early levels there's all those *stinking cloud* spells, but once down in the depths, that cloudkill is horrible!
Our cleric couldn't turn the Ghost Pepper. Run away.............
Willow is such an underrated movie. One of the best fantasy movies ever made.
One of the greatest comments ever made
I misread it as 'over rated' and was about to fight you.
I stole it from a daicheenee while he was taking a pee pee
I totally agree! As much as Kilmer chews up the screen sometimes in it & the story can feel a little slow, it was much better than folks give it credit for. I mean, Labryinth had the same general set style and look how it turned out....
Where do they publish the ratings?
Once the Yag-zay appeared, our M-U cast an illusion of the Negative energy one and had it flee down a corridor. Once it followed the illusion, he then cast "wall of stone' to seal it off. We still lost most of the non-magic treasures though. And forgot to mention, we played just weeks after it came out.
Another interesting to note about this module is that, before publication, this wasn't earmarked for S4, but rather WG3, and would've fit between The Village of Hommlet & The Temple of Elemental Evil and The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun. The module that would've been S4, Dwellers of the Forbidden City, eventually became I1, sharing its series with Ravenloft and Desert of Desolation, as well as the previously reviewed Tomb of the Lizard King.
Oh, and there was a 3.5e update to this module under the name Iggwilv's Legacy for Dungeon magazine, and is freely downloadable, which can be worth a look for DMs looking for a different take on the classic.
I didn't know all that!! Thanks, Para!!
Notes from a NG human Idiot;
Greetings from lovely Restenford(only 9 more days left till AllBlessed Day)!
This(alongside Tomb of Horros & White Plum Mountain) was the backbone of the only Campaign i was a player in before i became a DM, so i've fond memories of Tsojcanth(it's pronounced Tsojcanth with the j being silent, fyi. I think it's Yiddish, but am uncertain). I actually managed to talk the Vampire Dreth down from attacking by applying to her Vanity(it helped that i treated her like one of my Noble peerage). She even helped us take out the two end monsters for a cut of the loot & safe passage to Iuz, i still get letters from her occasionally...
May your pantheon ever favor you
Baron Trevelyan of Restenford
@Joe Blow -- thanks for clarifing that for me, as i was uncertain if it was...:D
It always amuses me when I hear "old timers" saying they never complained or commented on the crazy dungeons. That's bs. Of course they (we) commented and complained. We would see a Gary module and roll our eyes, but we played it anyway. It was fun. But I know that I and other DMs would make changes to the modules as needed to make them either more enjoyable or playable. Great video.
Reminds me of the old Judge's Guild modules. "Map: 10 x 10 Room" "Module Entry: 3 Ancient Huge Red Dragons"
Much of this probably stems from Effort Justification, that colors their memories of not just what playing DnD in that era was like, but how much actual enjoyment they got from doing it that way. Those players whose DMs ran the adventures as-is were subject to grueling, unfair, and sadistic scenarios. They remember it all fondly in the same way that people who were part of college fraternities fondly remember things, despite (indeed, _because_ of) having undergone hard and humiliating hazing rituals. They want to feel as though their suffering was worth it, so they emotionally deepen their commitment to it, and their memory (which is always more reconstructive than recording) shifts to emphasize the fun they had and de-emphasize the suffering.
Someone is still jealous they never got pledged.
You wouldn’t be a left testicle ball hair of Gary Gygax ‘s nut sack😮
It’s funny. I first bought S4 in 1983 and for some reason have glossed over the xeg-yi and xeg-ya every time I’ve looked at this adventure, and always thought Drelzna was the final monster. Nearly 27 years later, I learn the truth 😜
Great review. Really enjoying your channel!
Seth I've watched all your content, but I sub for the ad & d reviews. Absolutely love them because I feel like I get a reliable voice on something I never got to experience. Its like a 20 minute vicarious playthrough. Anyway, hope you're well and merry Christmas!
As long as you're enjoying 'em. My goal is that my vids be either useful or fun (preferably both). You have a good one, as well.
@@SSkorkowsky in that case you have succeed at both good sir.
@@SSkorkowsky May I give some advice then? Don't accept money for your vids/channel.
If a sub of mine donated (let's say 200$) and made a request, I would definitely feel obligated to take the request.
You don't want to become a D&D shill like AJ Pickett
I loved running this module in the 80s! My players... mixed feelings ;-)
One thing I love about your reviews is how you pick the nuggets of goodness out of them so that it shows DMs useful tools that they can use when preparing:
-- 2:15 designing for player level vs. character level can also mean that the DM can shape player level by giving them certain experience in their scenarios
-- 3:09 create new kinds of monsters and or obstacles that players have not yet seen in order to keep things fresh/preserve mystery and develop player experience; 10:57 can give you new ideas for rooms (i.e., encounters, a.k.a. problems to solve), you can also get them from other places
-- 4:11 set up rival groups that operate on their own "AI" to accomplish their goals as a meanwhile that challenges the party by instilling a sense of urgency for sticking with the mission (the reduce fucking around) with time and/or creates interesting clashes for the party -- I'd add to generate when dumbass disrespectful murder hobos/unheroic criminals run roughshod over the DM's world and create new enemies
-- 5:17 give players handouts with clues on them and put some extra effort into making them look authentic;
-- 5:55 wilderness maps with squares marked for events/encounters are useful (my note, which my players loved -- you should also consider making a "game within a game" for navigating that map with rules for the time it takes to go from one hex to another and a table with risk of getting lost/what happens when lost, and the chance for other random encounter/problem to deal with each time you move onto a new hex; 13:35 has one idea for dungeons, but when in the wilderness it is also often good for them to not even know that they are lost and let them wander around until they can figure it out -- the players track where they think they are, the DM tracks where they actually are ,and when they don't arrive at a known point, they know they are lost
-- 10:47 make a cheat sheet for your monsters (I do this for both planned encounters and for the random encounter table, if I use one every time they go onto a new hex, which has the effect of making it so they will stay focused on their objective instead of doing unnecessary things that waste resources (time -- which you absolutely must track because as time ticks the mission might fail or the rent becomes due for these professional adventurers plus they lose spells & hit points & potentially make enemies who will go after them for the rest of the campaign if they act like idiots)
At the same time, you criticize its bad points so that people cab remedy them, such as:
--3:45 -- publishing secrets & surprises destroys their mystique means you need too look for ideas outside the D&D realm such as other games/history/fantasy lit to keep things fresh
-- 8:18 -- poor dungeon ecology (which I commented on yesterday,; nothing more to say here)
-- 12:23 -- beware of party splits that make it so that many players are sitting at the table doing nothing for extended periods of time (players, you need to pay attention to this too -- when you are seeking individualistic goals instead of working together with your team toward a common end, you run the risk of ruining the game for everyone else who has to sit around while you dominate the table; DMs have to shut this kind of selfish player down or expel them from the group).
Lastly, you don't completely hype it with overproduced, cheerleady bullshit and stupid facial expressions/overexcited tone of voice (which might have the consequence of making it less appealing to a young audience that has grown up not knowing much other than internet-age hype) except when you play the persona of the various "players" for comical effect. It has the lo-fi DIY appeal of punk rock that screams "TRUTH according to Skorkowski" and "You can do it too!" Even when I see people who are just a little too self-deprecating, it comes across as a ruse to seek a geek chic coolness that annoys the fuck out of me.
Came back to watch now that it’s been ported to 5e
"The beer's layer". Players have a few before dealing with this dungeon crawl. Love that accent.
The Beerslayer, or how do you play Russian Roulette with a crossbow?
I reskinned parts of this module a few months back for my current campaign. There is a 5e conversion of this module on Drivethrurpg as well.
This was fun to revisit now that WotC has announced they will reprint Lost Caverns as part of another anthology.
Criticisms are on point here and many stem from the module's tournament roots. Delaying play at the table and splitting the party were features in that context.
Your point about novelty can't possibly be overstated. In some ways, we can never return to Tsojcanth.
I want to give a shout out to Jim Holloway for doing both great interior work on this AND gently spoiling the green slime encounter on the back cover. Great details!
The > made me chuckle
Another very fun analysis, thank you.
And I totally agree with you about implausible ecologies. Wrecks any immersion, for me at least.
well done "Taco cot." Yes please... one of my fave modules /series of the old way. Back when we homebrewed Jedi knights. 1977. What a year!l my thanks to TSR, Blondie and The Clash.
I personally love looting older adventures like these for cool dungeon maps. Saves me a ton of time when building adventures for my campaigns since most of my players haven’t experienced these.
The last time I was this early, D&D was still published by TSR.
Bazinga!
😢
@@Tony-dh7mz I know, right? I miss TSR.
@@HoundofOdin And wasn't ruined by WoTC/Hasbro.
@@dubuyajay9964 WotC didn't ruin it. D&D 3.5 is by far my favorite edition, and I've played them all from the original game all the way to 5e. TSR was however much more willing to experiment and try out new settings and ideas. I'm still sad barely anyone remembers Birthright.
One of my favorite modules when I was a kid. Funny the best way to "win" might be too just camp out for a few weeks and let all the monsters starve or check the room next door and eat each other.
I’ve been around so long I think of this as one of the newer AD&D modules. I never ran it, but I always wanted to.
I Love the D&D reviews, Seth!
I sometimes wonder how much tea the Skorkowsky household goes through just from tea-staining handouts. Also, yes; dungeon ecology has bothered me for decades. I'm happy to hear you talk about it.
Jeffrey Milliman keep on the borderlands thats all
Yeah, I remember questioning that kind of ecology in the early 90s, and I wasn't alone. One argument at the time was, well, computer games can get away with that but we have to do better. Now of course, even computer games do it better, so we've got no excuse.
@@filiplykkegaardkastrup1876 lol
I once wrote a 30 page manual on dwarven mining safety regulations just to justify the layout of my dungeon in my own head. I only ever showed the manual to my wife many years later. Her response? "Yep, that's totally something you would do."
That talk has a long history, the earliest version of it I know of was back in the 1980's when White Dwarf was a general gaming zine. Issue 27 ran an article on Dungeon design and general gaming tips that still has (IMHO) value to this day.
Thank you so much for that end bit! It gave me warm flashbacks to an episode of The (animated) Tick where he faces off against Thrackazog (Laxative log, three yaks and a dog, Susan...)
To update the Xeg-Yi's item destroying properties, I would take the Rust Monster as an example for any non-magical items, dealing -1 penalties to the use of these types of items and being completely destroyed by the time it's at a -5, which can be adjusted to deal penalties faster should the need be for higher-level parties. For magical items, there are a few ideas to be had. An immediate effect of this could be a turn-long disabling of the item's effects, as the negative energy is scrambling the magic in the items. Any items with charges could also begin depleting upon further exposure to the Xeg-Yi's attacks.
That's a quick hot-fix on ideas to incorporate the creature to update them based on just sorta first-instinct.
Great video- dungeon ecology has bothered me since 1981- most TSR modules were monster condominiums- all of the creatures are held in suspended animation until the players arrive - OSR feeds off this concept- i find it bothersome
I'd hope everyone would try and keep the best of the old stuff and throw away the worst bits.
Yep. When I was starting, about the same time as you, the daft ecologies really pushed me away from running D&D. Which is fine, it encouraged me to go find other great games that suited me better.
That’s a sign it’s not for you, not that somethings wrong with it.
Nameless Jedi Those are the same thing. When something is wrong with it in someone’s opinion, it still counts as something wrong. It’s just not inherently or objectively wrong, because it could be right in someone else’s opinion.
It has to do with how the game was originally played. It was simply dungeon exploration and challenges. Treasure and defeating monsters were the only way you got experience to level up.
The game has changed A LOT over the years.
A good example of a dungeon with ecology is the Tomb of Abysthor from Frog God Games. It can be found in the Stoneheart Valley module which is on sale right now (May 2021.) It's very detailed and challenging fun! (p.s. A review would be great!)
^
Don't forget that gnomish village becomes the hook into The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun.
Being one of those old fart DM's from the 70's, I can say for my part, i did run a world with plausible reasons for monsters to be there. And i did eliminate some of the monsters from this overcrowded dungeon just as you adocated. Great review.
Well done, as always. I love handouts and usually find myself making even more than a scenario initially has. They're the best!
I played this adventure in the early 80's, and ran it for a group of players two years ago. Preparing to DM this was a great nostalgia session.
When will you do the Return to the Mountains of Madness CoC adventure? That is what I’d love to see.
First it'd require we played it, and I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Who knew that a material relative of my first D&D familiar would have gotten humans to invent the internet so they could have TH-cam. As a minor consolation I now know how to pronounce Tsojcanth, and people say magic isn't real...
Death on the Reik set my expectations for handouts... Some awesome clues in there and well over 100 letters, maps and so forth to hand to the players - it's great to see players sorting through their stockpile looking for a reference :-)
The resource booklet had a preview of many mmanual 2 creatures and unearthed arcana spells and items. So cool.
This was my favorite Dungeons and Dragons game. I had such fond memories of playing in and running it.
I haven’t played D&D sense the early 90’s. I’ve played a lot of other games and now run Pathfinder.
That being said, I love watching these videos and getting fantastic ideas for my own campaigns and characters.
Thank you for your videos.
Ah yes, a classic from the days of Erol Otus artwork. Pointy and somewhat impressionist. Thank you for clearly telling us how OLD this module is that came out when I was a teenager. I feel ancient.
Love this adventure we tried this about 30 years ago. Out of a party of 7 mine was the only survivor by drinking a potion of diminuation & turning invisible ! We basically lined up one by one to fight the vampire, instead of teaming up ! Ffs
Probably my favorite module, ever.
Nice review! Would I run this having it explained so clearly? No way. Has nearly every pet peeve problem I have with campaigns all in one package.
I ran this module only a couple of times but ended up using this as a resource for the basis for most of my future AD&D encounters.
And apparently I've forgotten more about this module than I realized.
Anyone else remember the endless 10'x10' rooms? Not only were those poor monsters in suspended animation, they were highly compressed as well!
I still remember one of my DMs describing the room as 10x10 and containing three ogres.
I turned my head to the side and gave him the “Huh? WtF?” Look. He didn’t get it …
@@Leftists_are_LosersI doubt the ogre would have any kind of mood to fight at that point, just one of them give a finger handshake and let you be on your way
Easy way to deal with item saving throws for 5E is to just use the rarity as a power reference for the item.
generic magic items save on 15 or better
uncommon items save on 10 or better.
rare items save on 5 or better.
legendary items are immune.
Something like that would work easy. I know that rarity isn't necessarily supposed to equate directly to power, but it does often enough and this is just a quick idea to adapt a thing without having to spend too much time on it.
You could also use that as a base to set DCs, think a particular rare item would hold up a little better? Make it 3, a little worse? Make it 7, etc. etc.
In the end you just need to make a decision and nobody can really call you wrong.
The Dungeon Master is never wrong! Even when he is. It's easy enough to retcon a bad decision.
I always thought the best thing about this module was Daoud's Wondrous Lanthorn, one of the coolest unique treasures to show up in D&D's products (and frankly nearly artifact-level in its powers).
I think the best way to explain the ecology is that while giants, beetles, troglodytes, etc. are indicative of the types of monsters typically found in the cavern setting, the other Greater monsters only "warp in" - courtesy of Iggwilv's magic - when a party enters the cavern they are attuned to. When the cavern is not disturbed it is in fact totally empty.
Given that the Xeg - Yi/Ya follow this principle it makes sense.
Well, the hermit's words make me think an enterprising GM could have this cavern actually BE a planar nexus -- if each room had an active portal (presumably created by Iggwilv) that the resident monster uses to come and go from their plane of origin, it could serve as the core of a whole campaign once the current guards were cleared out.
Wow, great review! As always. I agree with you about the ecologies of dungeons, and yeah, the monty hall, fun house dungeons always bothered me. I'd ask, how does this thing survive when it's in a sealed room? How did this enormous monster make it into this tiny space, and once again, how does it survive? I'd always reimagine the dungeon, sometime completely repopulating it, and then develop a backstory as to why and how they came to be there. One thing is for certain, though; Gary Gygax had an epic back story for all his modules, and he was teasing us with the narrative and subtext of his campaign. Ya gotta love him for that; Iuz, Iggwilv, Grazz't, Eclavdra and the EEG, Lolth, and the ToEE. What else might he have revealed had he published more with TSR?
I ran this as a Gamma World set. Changed it to an underground Bunker (think "Raccoon City"). The characters entering it were a Hoop Samurai, named Mayor Brandy Bloodeyes (performing a worldwide Hide-and-seek, to prevent anyone else from being elected to replace him) - who would do a standing backflip (30-foot vertical jumping), rip a guy's head off, catch it on his landing, hand it to another player, and say things like "Never say I never give you nothin", then turn to their gunslinger Doctor, hand him writing paper (The Hare couldn't write), and say "Now weeth pafawm da Hiaku" (speech impediment from extended-frequency hearing), because the doctor agreed to do the writing for it.
The next player was Doctor Walker (can't remember his first name), who was an ancestral member of the Texas Rangers, A good surgeon/medical scientist, who could make gunpowder, and various explosives. He carried a sidearm modeled after the .45 Blackhawk punkin Ball. I realized the parallels much later.
Third player. Mutated plant named "Cole Slaw", that carried a twin-mini rapid fire double barrel lazer, had sonic damage mutation, small hooks, and a sort of tendril that could dig into the skull and drink the brain/spinal fluids of victims. A completely ruthless killing machine that ate brains.
Fourth player was a Sleeth "Alli" (as in Alli Gator). She was a Sleeth that could lie. A psion, trained to infiltrate and spy/assassinate rival tribes.
A shaman (Anderson?) that could perform illusions, and had telekenetic powers, using a log, or pair of logs, to pound on people, as though the illusions were real.
Then there was the Ninja, named Church. A nanite infected Human from the Japanese Yakuza (far from home).
There were a few Badder henchmen that were training under the doctor.
The ghosts were projected force field holograms, directed from a LAN WiFi, which the masks (whichever ones worked) could tap into. The masks being AI with brainscan technology, and record-keeping abilities.
Again, think Raccoon City, with an AI that has problems, and three nukes, ready to burn the infections off of the map. It controlled long-term hibernation caskets, one of which held a "Jesuit Priest", that turned loos experimental animals that were carrying plagues. Specifically, walking and talking cats, which he was unwilling to allow to be subjected to further experiments. Although thought to be a foreign sabateur, he was an actual Jesuit scientist who had had enough. Both groups were trying to shut down and dismantle the nuclear apparatus, and take in AI parts for a different AI on the West Coast.
Oh, did I mention a beast man with the head of a jackal ("Annubis") was carrying the mental imprint of the Jesuit Priest? Overlaid on top of the mutant's mind (having trouble remembering his name). Having both memories, he was so squirrely that he wanted revenge on "Poncho Pilates" for the murder of Christ. They had to run him down to disable the nuclear devices (three).
They were in competition with the "Thought Masters", the "Thule Society", the factions living there, and an off-world AI, from Mars, that was trying to recoup various facilities.
The Baron that had sent the party there was a land-bound Telepathic octopus that, although technically insane, with a form of territorial aggression, really liked Alli and trusted the Doctor. It's tough to trust a plant symbiote that would attach itself to one of your mounts and eat its brain (eventually).
Anyway. Getting the factions together was difficult. Surprising them with what their god was manufacturing down there, and getting it through to them about the nuclear facility dangers. . . Wasn't easy.
The final raid on the creature of the enemy faction was a bloodbath with the fires of hell in it.
I don't remember much of it, but Brandy Bloodeyes was hilarious.
I used to buy pretty much everything that TSR put out back in the day (80's and 90's), and one campaign in the early 00's I dusted this one off and decided to run it as a 2e adventure for my gaming group (we didn't have the $$ to drop on the new 3.0 stuff that was coming out). When they got to the room with the vampire, I read the description and one of the players said "Wait a minute!" then grabbed the Player's Handbook and turned to a page in the Classes section. "Does it look like this?" Sure enough, we had all seen that picture a million times. Too funny. I had lost some of the inserts for that module so I didn't realize it was the same picture.
This is just... the best channel. I think I’ve said it before, but your videos are my favourite thing on TH-cam.
I don't know about you, but when my high school group played this in the 90's, we just kinda gave up and just started calling it "The Lost Caverns". And, yes, we left the caverns naked too.
14:35 Jack's tone (and expression) says it all.
So, now that you mentioned mapping in the video, how do you handle player mapping dungeons? How do your players map out dungeons, with out grinding your game to a halt? How do you as a DM inform players about their surroundings in order to help them map things out? What tips do players need to know to keep their maps legible?
This is my question as well.
I'd recommend you to read this article by the Angry GM : theangrygm.com/lost-player-skills-mapping/
Good question!
We play on a 4'x6' piece of whiteboard and DM draws the dungeon/cavern with dry erase markers as the characters (and their light source) move around).
One of my favorite module covers, too.
The original version put out with Metro Detroit Gamers emphasized that the place was a nexus of parallel realities. The parties in the second tournament round would be made from one player chosen from each of the original groups in the tourney.
The Ecology aspect you pointed out also had me scratching my head over when it came out. Some aspects of AD&D modules just didn't make since. Like an adult Dragon in a cavern with no possible exits to support it's size or a lone Harpy in the center of a Kobold Warren. But, Hell the 14 year old me (in 1982) quickly forgot about logic, when it came to descriptions of all of the new creatures and the Fantastical locations, this module had to offer.
When I was an early teenager, I did not think of Dungeon Ecology. As I got better educated, I started scratching my head also!
I always felt this module was sort of "cash in" for the new AD&D books that Gygax wrote in early 80s, especially Monster Manual 2. A lot of the monsters in MM2 appeared for the first time in this module (Behir, Chasme demon, etc).
If my memory is correct that this module was loosely connected with WG4, I'd love to hear your review of the forgotten temple of tharizdun toi
Loved that one too! I also expanded the outdoor maps to more mini-dungeons and encounters. We played off the pair of TSR modules and map for almost 9-10 years.
I miss these old school adventures with names generated by throwing Scrabble tiles on the floor 😂. But why don’t modern modules have fold out maps anymore? Such a handy accessory...hey, I had no idea that this scenario was the source for so much of 2nd ed art! That’s amazing!
Love these old ADnD reviews
Played this as a player character in ‘83. After weeks of play we all (barely) made it to Drelnza’s chamber and there all but one of the player characters were killed. My character was that fool who slid down the curved walls eager ‘save’ Drelnza. I knew it was a mistake but it had to be done. Anyway, to me this module is not as outwardly obvious as an S series dungeon but it definitely plays like an S series dungeon. My characters also died in White Plume Mountain, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks and Tomb of Horrors. LOL
One of my favorite adventures. I ran this one in middle school first. My copy says the vampire does 1D64 points of damage. That was a good way to get rid of crappy players. To this day I still have the picture of her on the dias framed on my wall. I never could pronounce it either as a kid. Somenhow ended up calling it "so-jathus" now i pronounce it "Tso-Canth" which feels right.
Skull in the interstellar Scout Service helmet is an amazing touch
I will just stick with The Lost Caverns of the Vampire Babe. 14:10, best part of this review. That drop down and kiss part brought back fond memories.
I used the j as a y sound.
I ran this adventure, and I had to modify it. Some of those traps are all kinds of nasty: I often think of that star-chamber trap even today, trying to figure out how a player should have worked it out. Still, it was amazing for it's time.
my party befriended giant eels and used them to make whole dungeon easier and fed all monster corpses to them - one of best modules/expansions ever
When I played this module I remember liking it from its technical stand point, cool map, cool monsters, good art, but when we played it out the module lacked "personality".
Hey Seth! Thanks for the great videos! Happy Holidays!
I am trying to think of how I can transition this over to use in Pathfinder since that is the system I learned how to DM on. And I love your channel, I have learned a lot of things that have helped me out as a new DM.
In regard to those last two monsters, it seems to me like since one is a being of negative energy and the other is positive energy, then the two of them would be natural enemies. I wonder if the original intent was for the players to release both of them (either at the same time or one first, then the other as they frantically dig through the treasure looking for something to fight the first monster with) and then induce them to fight and destroy one another.
Looks like the Lost Caverns of Tabasco is getting a 5E redux in their upcoming book, Quests from the Infinite Staircase.
Darn! On my Channel, I was going to do a review of the S4 Mod, but Seth has beaten me to it! I guess I will have to switch to another D&D Module, in order to not be in competition with Seth. :-O
Please proceed
It's got the blue map. According to the 2 wizards public access TV program I watched in the 80s if it doesn't have the blue map it's not official.
I'm planning on redrawing the map to be a massive underdark complex, then spread out the encounters more.
Love that AD&D cover with Gene Simons in bathrobes and funny skullman with eyeballs.
This module was such a treasure in 82.
When I first read this module 30+ years ago I too had the same reaction. Too many monsters of a wide and incoherent variety within a small space. Many of them can be handwaved away and given an agenda to make their presence plausible. Some can't. I suggest simply eliminating those that don't fit and/or replacing them with ones that do.
Another problem was the vampire in the spherical room. Her first priority upon awakening (and seeing a fully armed and tough group around her) is escaping the dungeon to the outside world. I would suggest to any GM that she do whatever she can to fool the adventurers and hide her true nature. Then make a run for it when she can. Yes, she is a tough opponent and you can use that at a critical moment. But really escape and hiding and waiting until she has learned about the world would be paramount. Safety first!
Seth's other measure of the quality of a module is accuracy regarding the number and placement of bathrooms.
This thing had brought us to our knees recently. To the point our Cleric Urlich had a faith conversion, that is yet to be played out and could be devastating. Tournament play modules are absolutely brutal and NOT our cup of tea. Wow
Excellent review - thanks. Please do more videos like this!!
Wow, I remember when items had to make saving throws against damage just like characters. Seemed like it made a lot of sense at the time. Still does.
I saw the video and knew about the series and thought it was traveler, saw the name and thought it was Call of Cthulu, but no it's D&D, I can't complain however because it's good stuff.
I'm not concerned about the monster ecology of the dungeon, so much as I'm concerned about that sweet, sweet giant lovin'.
There is an old Dragon magazine issue that includes a pronunciation guide for most of these names and words.
Thanks for everything you do, Seth. I will look into that Patron program after the holidays.
Oh, hey a new Seth review. "Written by Gygax... Originally a tournament module..." Popcorn isn't popping fast enough!
My DM used to use that module to kill and punish us on a regular basis. It is a sadistic DM's dream. We never made it even close to the conclusion. We were pretty decent players too. This was back in the ancient days of the mid 80's.
If you’re taking requests, more 1st edition ad&d reviews pretty please.
That's a really nice cave that Jack has in the background there.
I love your videos as well as the ones Dungeon Craft puts out. As far as new monsters go and how this was great for its day, I never use a stock monster from DnD. An orc in my world would vary from encounter to encounter - Some with more HP, AC, or player classes. I nearly wiped my 1st lvl group with 3 orc 1st lvl rangers. I just played them as a ranger would be played.
This was a great review. I love your takes on these old modules, I hope you continue with them. Happy Holidays!
Even the original AD&D modules are sometimes newer than other modules, like those from Judges Guild. Initially TSR didn't have many modules available and only the World of Greyhawk for AD&D but they gradually added them. I have fond memories of those years, we felt we were part of something new, something which was developing around us. When I saw the title to this video I read is as "The Lost Caverns of Thracia. No, that's not what he wrote... " en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Caverns_of_Thracia
You should do the other "S" module, 'Lost Temple of Tharzadun.' It uses an extension of S4's overland adventure map.
I think you mean WG4 The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun... Do you think it should have been labeled "S5" ?? Or is that Old School lore ?
@@MyersSgt I have seen it listed as 'S5' before, which makes sense as its in the same continental map hex and the outdoor part takes off directly from the outdoor map of 'S4'.