You'll notice a few characters on here are missing that you think should be obvious. My thinking is that if the character's arc was bailed on after season 4, and basically stopped feeling recognizable, it was difficult to say they had a bad ending when it felt like they no longer had an arc anyway. It's Tyrion, I'm talking about Tyrion. As I put this list together, I thought about the characters that bothered me the most and I guess Tyrion just stopped mattering to me, and that would be the best way to describe it.
Yeah, that bothered me a lot in the show and was part of why I ultimately stopped watching halfway through S5. Tyrion, once the most entertaining and fascinating character in the series, suddenly had no personality left, through no fault of Peter Dinklage's. You could see that he was really, *really* trying to do everything he could with the material he was given, but it was so thin that not even an actor of his calibre could make much of it. And if Peter Dinklage can't rock it, you know that it's got to be a dry script.
In that case I don't think Euron doesn't belong on this list, because the character we saw in the show was not Euron Crow's Eye anyway. It was a completely different character.
@@subzaddo Good point! Dumb and Dumber took away his terrifying blood magic and replaced it with frat boy jokes. Nothing in common but the name. Not even an eyepatch!
I’m rewatching GOT (again) and im towards the ends of S6 and I just realized how the writing of Dany dramatically changed. How she grew so cold and distant. Dany used to be so self-aware but that changed. We don’t see her inner turmoil of wanting to change the world in a non violent way yet live up to the expectations of a Queen.
Women are obviously very difficult for D n D to write. I wonder why? lol George views women as people and not just archetypes or plot devices. His writing reflects that. I've never read another male author who captures the perspective of women so well. They feel so real and you just get sucked in. I didn't expect Dumb and Dumber to capture that to a T, but they could have at least, oh idk, talked to a woman? I feel like neither of them ever have.
If you are near the end of season six you may want to stop there and call it a story. Possibly season 7. Seasons 1-7 of proper GoT (or okish GoT) contradict season 8 so much that it is arguably not part of the same series. Maybe a Star Trek like mirror dimension-that would explain why bells suddenly mean surrender when S2 clearly said (via Davos) and showed (via events) that they do not. Things like that and the out of character actions.
The couple times I've reread the ASOIAF books, I've had the same visualization in my head of both Cersei and Littlefinger being the only two still playing the Game of Thrones when the White Walkers arrive and they both were skeptical of everything right up to the point where they die at the hands of them - perhaps the Volonquar (whoever it ends up being) is actually a Wight when it chokes her out, imagining Littlefinger's smug face turning to one of horror and shock when he finally sees all those stories north of the wall were true, and its the last thought going through his mind, those seem like fitting ends for both of them.
I felt like they were setting Cersei up as the mad queen but changed it to Dany at the last minute. The episode "the Bells" would be associated with Cersei more so than Dany.
@@scottwells5057 How does that count when the show acted like that never happened? Not a single character says anything against her for it and the smallfolk dont do anything either even though Cersei blew up the Westeros equivalent of Mecca.
Agreed. Plenty of book people see Cersei as the coming "Mad Queen". GoT Daenerys is sane. FYI the earlier plan for season 8 itself was for wildfire to wreck the city. The show writers changed this after they had started making season 8. There is both artwork and an interview with the computer effects people that provides evidence for this.. plus other more indirect things as well. Don't get me wrong, if a battle where wildfire is spread throughout the city there is plenty of opportunity for things to go badly without either Cersei or season 8 Dany intending for it to-especially with a dragon being used as part of the battle. But wildfire was the earlier planned method of destruction of King's Landing. So dropping it was a major change. Since they were so ready to make major changes even within a season to their own plans it is not unreasonable to ask if they switched a "mad queen" arc off Cersei and tried putting it on someone.
Yes. Deciding after hearing the bells to detonate any wildfire she still had; or the caches the Mad King still had ready. Possibly convinced she could win, but mainly to spite her enemies. If she's going down, she's taking as many people with her as she can.
For me is Brynden "The Blackfish" Tully. They make him escape the Red Wedding, only to bring him back after 3 FREAKING SEASONS and kill him in 2 EPISODES. The siege of Riverrun arc had one of the worst conclusions ever, it's absolutely pointless. If they wanted to killl the character so fast then they could've at least had him espace the siege like in the books. Then have him fight in the Battle Of The Bastards and die thinking about his beloved niece Catelyn, maybe Sansa could even be there in his final moments. But no, they decide to kill him for no damn reason, making the Tully army look stupid as hell, and making Blackfish die in a last stand that we don't even get to see! And there's no excuse as "Clive Russell was too old to do a fight scene", cause they could just use a stuntman.
@@hypnos3000 they should have followed that. Narratively it makes much more sense. Also he actually likes Edmure in the books unlike the show where he actively tried to kill him at least twice.
Can we give the Tarleys dishonorable mention? I mean, I know Randall and Dickon weren't really in the show much but dammit, the Tarleys were Targaryen loyalists and if a legitimate Targaryen ruler showed up with a dragon, well, Randall's knee would have been pre-bent. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, the TYRELLS were Targaryen loyalists so ol' Randall might have gotten a few bros together to avenge their liege lord (speaking of no consequnces, a Tyrell vassal is outside your gates, woman and you just don't fuck with Randall Tarley. Dany would have had not only Horn Hill but the possibly the entire army of the Reach. Drogon could have just perched on the roof of the Red Keep and sat the battle out. He wouldn't have been needed.
Jaime falling in love with Brienne over 5 Seasons, getting with her in the end only to do a 180 and go back to Cersei has the same energy as the HIMYM writers deciding to devote seasons to proving Ted and Robin do not work, devote an entire season to her marrying Barney and why they’re good together, only to pull that ending in the last 10 minutes of the show
Every time I think of Dany's character assassination, I always feel sorry for all the mums who named their daughters Khaleesi after season 1 when she was still a decent and morally good character 😂
Dorne got screwed as a whole. How many f*cking times did anyone reading any of the Kings'/Queens' titles say "King/Queen of the Andals and the first men" instead of, "King/Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the first men?" I think they mentioned the Rhoynar once in the whole series. I guess Dorne just pops in and out of existence like a quantum particle.
I forget who….but a long time ago, I saw a video made by someone who suggested the Great Council scene should not have sought to make Bran King, but deliberately facilitated the breakups of the 7 Kingdoms. I love that idea so much that’s my head vision for how this all ends.
@@robstewartstewart98 they could have seceded anyway. Who's gonna stop them? The idiot King in a wheelchair with no army? It takes a Targaryen to rule Westeros, no-one else can.
@@robstewartstewart98 That makes a lot of sense, the remaining houses giving up their sovereignty like that to some weird kid did feel awkward at the time. Like what did they even fight for?
@@jonstfrancis yep. Plus…..theoretically, some of the messages the show toys with towards the end COULD make sense. That being said…..so let’s say George didn’t say anything to the writers about Danys dark turn, but did say Bran would end up King, right? In addition to shock value (which is a terrible reason in this context), I see how/why the show writers felt the need to start thinking “so how do we have Dany not end up Queen?” However, the execution was SOOOOOO clumsy! I see why some people are concerned the way the show tried to criticize Dany’s arc implies ANY (serious) effort to help the slaves of Essos was a mistake. Dany not being Queen or ending up with Jon? I’m down with that. Bran being in a position of great power at the end? Totally for that. But in retrospect, I think being more willing to use and explore magic in this setting (even if it involved making stuff up) AND having Dany and Tyrion go to White Harbor first, might have helped things. In all my imaginings, I don’t ultimately come up with a decent (IMO) way for Dany to become a villain. Still, you can make Jon and Dany not be in charge, breakup the realm, and have Bran be in a position of great power. If you’re going to criticize the “hero comes to town” archetype, goal should be to more explicitly be “there’s always a ‘now what?’, and “things built by force can be fragile”.
@@robstewartstewart98 I still think Dany and Jon should have been made the rulers, but it seems to me D&D tried to buy off the majority of the viewers with some Stark fan service with Arya killing the Night King and then Bran made king. I'd also have been happy with a variety of endings and even surprises like Dany being killed in battle or something. But not Bran being made king, that sucks and Arya jumping from little tomboy to super-killer went beyond credulity even for a fantasy show. The last 2 seasons were - as you put it - clumsy and the end awful; rushed and unbelievable.
I can see Dany going crazy in the books cause it really hammers in how much she actually revels in violence and how frustrating it is for her as she tries for peace. Also how much her mind is getting fucked with by magical ppl like quiathe & the undying. The show tho really leaned into her care for innocents and didn’t add a lot of nuance to when she killed ppl. It also didn’t help the story basics stopped criticizing other characters violent actions but then double downed on vilifying Dany for it
This is so true! What crazy is that, even in S1 you can catch little drops of dialogue that even Areys the Mad king wasn’t always mad, and how his madness slowly ate him from the inside out. They didn’t have the same energy for Dany tho, she wasn’t even “mad”
She doesn't revel in cruelty but will use it to strike at her enemies. "A Prince should never flinch from being blamed for acts of cruelty necessary for securing the realm or their own person."
You left out hearing voices as well as Euron using magic to get into her dreams. That said there are plenty of moments she seems nicer than GoT Daenerys. But lets not forget that earlier plans for season 8 had wildfire as what wrecked the city and the show writers changed things while season 8 was being made. With major changes like that going on at the last minute like that we should not assume GoT was actually following GRRM's plans for the books. I argue books and show are different stories and they couldn't even stick with their plans for the show. So instead of just asking if D and D messed up a book arc while trying to follow it ask if it is possible they broke with some book arcs for different characters in large ways. This involves questioning the assumption they would follow GRRM's ideas-in at least some ways they broke from them.
@@pplr1 Another point of why the books might be very different is I don't believe GRRM's publishers would let the show runners have major spoilers why would allow the risk to book sales. Example in the books the wild fire left all around the city by the mad king is never cleaned up. So it could be that in the books maybe dany accidentally sets it off (or someone else) like they were planning to do in the show and the publishers were like nope can't use that try again.
@@fwgoalie4life Maybe. Now I doubt publishers have that kind of authority over D and D but if somehow they did that could be another thing. Maybe D and D wanted do something that would define a difference between season 8 and the story GRRM is writing.
The mighty fearsome all conquering Night King, who was going to wipe out all of Westeros....stabbed by a girl. As was the mighty fearsome all conquering Mother of Dragons.
I always go back to the idea that would have to be established : Daenerys has a history of intentionally killing the innocent. That never happens in the show or the books.
There is a reason it does not feel organic. It is not. The earlier plans for season 8 itself had wildfire be what wrecks King's Landing. The show writers made a change after work had already started on making season 8-so pretty late. There was no buildup for 1 dragon burning the city because that wasn't the earlier plan. I suspect they made some of the changes they did for both shock value and intended character assassination. After all if season 8 Dany did not intend for the city to burn then is Jon as likely to agree to an assassination attempt-probably not. So no this is not character development so much as (I suspect) realizing there is something of a plot hole and then trying to cover it up in a way that created new plot holes.
I don't know... maybe something that would have worked for Dany burning down King's Landing would be a riot of the common folk, in which Missandei dies, so Dany starts seeing the common folk as enemies.
@@Leshantra Or maybe D and D could have just kept the earlier plan of wildfire burning down the city and not switch it to 1 dragon supposedly did it all. .
For me number one is Varys. Close number two is Littlefinger. These are two of the smartest people in the story, they were always behind the scenes manipulating everything. There would be no story without their schemes. When Arya killed Littlefinger I felt numb and stopped caring about the show. It was the stupidest death of all. As soon as he caught wind of Dany being in Westeros, he would have slithered over to her to worm his way in. He should have gotten the death that Varys got. I will be very disappointed if Jaime sleeps with Brienne in the books and I agree that he is number 3 on the list. Way to ruin 6 seasons of redemption arc for a cliche ending. I always expected Dany would die at the hands of Jon, and unlike a lot of people, I never warmed to her character in the show or books, by the time the burning of KL happened I didn't care anymore, I was only watching to see what utter nonsense the show runners would come up with next. Missing from the list is House Martell. Doran and Hotah went out like chumps. Ellaria Sand and the Sandsnakes were nothing like their book characters and since most of the Dorne storyline was left out and the rest was changed beyond recognition and had zero impact to the way the show played out in the end, they should have just left them out entirely like they did with Arianne and Quentyn. They did Stannis dirty too. It's clear to me that after season 4 Dan and Dave stopped consulting with George and thought they could do better. That's when it all started to fall apart, logic fled and characters stopped being themselves. It's true that a character can only be as smart as the person writing them, and that's why Tyrion, Varys, Littlefinger, Stannis and Doran, to name a few had to be sidelined or killed. They just didn't know what to do with those characters. For me the biggest sin of the show was not following the source material for Tyrion's adventures in Essos and Young Griff. Dinklage would have knocked it out of the park. After Jon came back from the dead, he did nothing except get cucked and kill Dany for reasons..... They should have just left him dead. If the showrunners were getting burned out, they should have passed the torch to someone who cared and knew the source material instead of rushing everything and trolling for Emmys over telling the story George wrote. There was plenty of material left to adapt, they just didn't want to keep going.
The Sandsnakes were only brought in to virtue signal feminism. Completely agree with you about Doran and Hotah. The show was so good at taking great characters and shitting all over them.
I hated Dany's Mad Queen arc in the show. In the show she flips her lid because she...heard some bells? Wtf? Dany in a way reminds me of Brienne. Bienne is "lawful good" she believes in and upholds honour, loyalty, and being a compassionate person she's one of the few morally unimpeachable characters on in the series. But she's never been tested she has never been put in a position where she has to choose. Love, or honour? Mercy, or duty? Renly never asked her to bring him her father's head, but what if he had? I think this is Danaerys. Her main goal is the Iron Throne, and she's doing some good along the way like freeing slaves, and yes while her methods can be brutal, they're usually directed at people who deserve it. The two dovetail together. I think Dany will break bad in the books but it won't be because of some fricken bell. It will be because her general desire to do good in the world and her desire to win will come into conflict. Would Dany give up on the Iron Throne if it meant the deaths of a few thousand innocents?
My issue with Varys is like Tyrion, they totally reimagined his character from the first 4 seasons, so by the end I felt like whatever they did with them felt fitting. In fairness, I feel like I would have included him in a top 15 though.
Burning the people of King's Landing was unjustified. Only an aristocrat would blame the weak for failing to liberate themselves. If you consider what the people of King's Landing would need to make a revolution, the resources, organization, forms of communication, expecting them to liberate themselves is a frivolas thought. Dany believed she was entitled by birth. She was a dragon. Her early life was hard. But she eventually enjoyed the care of slaves, sevants and soldiers. She loved and had no problem with Khal Drogo, a megalomaniac who killed, destryoyed and raped those he conquered. She conquered citiy-states. She all but effortlessly freed slaves. She eventually had WMDs, and used them to kill tens of thousands of defenseless individuals. Mostly, her enemies had no answer to her dragons. Any Dream of Spring could not have Dany as its end point. She embodied the wheel she wanted to break. She thus needed to die for Westros to have a chance at moving beyond the slaughter bench it had been in the past. This is true even if she began her reign by dedicating Westros permanent war-making.
Cersei's death wasn't empty- that's like saying Robb's death was empty because he said his mom's name and died. In that case, well no shit. If all you do is measure a character's last moments, then probably 99% of the deaths are "empty". Cersei feeling at peace, knowing her brother was her soulmate, they might go to a better place together holding hands, and she got away with crazy shit for 8 years straight. It was, "You're right, my love. Maybe it is time for us to go. Together." That was her ending, and it worked for me, 5 years ago and now.
“Wrap his hands around your pale white throat and choke the life from you.” They didn’t include the valonqar part of the prophecy in season 5 opening, but it still would have been a good callback for the book fans.
I mean, ignoring the fact that the prophecy says her little brother will kill her, not hold her in an embrace, that part wasn't even mentioned in the show. Also ignores how GRRM feels about prophecy and the many hints he gives us that we shouldn't trust it.
I think the whole thing centers around his desire to serve the realm to become king versus becoming king to serve the realm aspect in ASOS is what many cling to.
In retrospect.........I think George should have not bothered with the Bravvos arc, had Arya and the Hound arc quickly join up with Sansa and Lady Stoneheart, had Tyron quickly get to Dany, no Robert Strong/Mountain return (screw Clegangebowl) and no Dany returning to the Dothraki Sea (can't have the Dothraki charge the field if they dont come over with Dany). Heck......there are things you can do for the story to create a scenario where Dany and Tyrion go straight from Essos to White Harbor rather than Kings Landing/Dragonstone first. Heres an alternate timeline then........George completes Winds of Winter (and makes it the last book) in 2017, with the last season of the show (season 7) coming out in 2018. As for me........i decided to just kinda fuse multiple fan theories from a bunch of great fan theorists out there together, and write a fan fic where George decides to just write a blog post where he says what the plot points for the last books will be. Then printed it, stabled it, and put it on my shelf next to the books. Created some nice perspective. Helped me both imagine changes to the show I would have made.....AND some scenes I pretend happen during and after the series we got.
Danny didn't really go mad until watching her 2nd baby (dragon) die and sink beneath the waves that's when she really lost it and has every reason to yes she kept the dragon closest to her hee number 1 baby but the other to dying took its toll on her and when the 2nd baby died she just couldn't handle it and didn't care weather u were innocent or not at that point same with her warriors when they stormed the city
You'll notice a few characters on here are missing that you think should be obvious. My thinking is that if the character's arc was bailed on after season 4, and basically stopped feeling recognizable, it was difficult to say they had a bad ending when it felt like they no longer had an arc anyway. It's Tyrion, I'm talking about Tyrion. As I put this list together, I thought about the characters that bothered me the most and I guess Tyrion just stopped mattering to me, and that would be the best way to describe it.
Yeah, that bothered me a lot in the show and was part of why I ultimately stopped watching halfway through S5. Tyrion, once the most entertaining and fascinating character in the series, suddenly had no personality left, through no fault of Peter Dinklage's. You could see that he was really, *really* trying to do everything he could with the material he was given, but it was so thin that not even an actor of his calibre could make much of it. And if Peter Dinklage can't rock it, you know that it's got to be a dry script.
At least he's chilling out serving a crippled king in a peaceful post-Night king world.
In that case I don't think Euron doesn't belong on this list, because the character we saw in the show was not Euron Crow's Eye anyway. It was a completely different character.
@@subzaddo Good point! Dumb and Dumber took away his terrifying blood magic and replaced it with frat boy jokes. Nothing in common but the name. Not even an eyepatch!
@@thing_under_the_stairs yep, they turned the most terrifying character in the entire series into a meme
I’m rewatching GOT (again) and im towards the ends of S6 and I just realized how the writing of Dany dramatically changed. How she grew so cold and distant. Dany used to be so self-aware but that changed. We don’t see her inner turmoil of wanting to change the world in a non violent way yet live up to the expectations of a Queen.
Women are obviously very difficult for D n D to write. I wonder why? lol
George views women as people and not just archetypes or plot devices. His writing reflects that. I've never read another male author who captures the perspective of women so well. They feel so real and you just get sucked in. I didn't expect Dumb and Dumber to capture that to a T, but they could have at least, oh idk, talked to a woman? I feel like neither of them ever have.
If you are near the end of season six you may want to stop there and call it a story. Possibly season 7. Seasons 1-7 of proper GoT (or okish GoT) contradict season 8 so much that it is arguably not part of the same series. Maybe a Star Trek like mirror dimension-that would explain why bells suddenly mean surrender when S2 clearly said (via Davos) and showed (via events) that they do not. Things like that and the out of character actions.
They just turned Daenerys into a rabid dog that needs to be put down. This is not only insulting but also hurtful to her fans.
The couple times I've reread the ASOIAF books, I've had the same visualization in my head of both Cersei and Littlefinger being the only two still playing the Game of Thrones when the White Walkers arrive and they both were skeptical of everything right up to the point where they die at the hands of them - perhaps the Volonquar (whoever it ends up being) is actually a Wight when it chokes her out, imagining Littlefinger's smug face turning to one of horror and shock when he finally sees all those stories north of the wall were true, and its the last thought going through his mind, those seem like fitting ends for both of them.
I felt like they were setting Cersei up as the mad queen but changed it to Dany at the last minute. The episode "the Bells" would be associated with Cersei more so than Dany.
So you just forgot Cersei blowing up the sept? She was already the mad queen.
@@scottwells5057 How does that count when the show acted like that never happened? Not a single character says anything against her for it and the smallfolk dont do anything either even though Cersei blew up the Westeros equivalent of Mecca.
Agreed. Plenty of book people see Cersei as the coming "Mad Queen". GoT Daenerys is sane. FYI the earlier plan for season 8 itself was for wildfire to wreck the city. The show writers changed this after they had started making season 8. There is both artwork and an interview with the computer effects people that provides evidence for this.. plus other more indirect things as well. Don't get me wrong, if a battle where wildfire is spread throughout the city there is plenty of opportunity for things to go badly without either Cersei or season 8 Dany intending for it to-especially with a dragon being used as part of the battle.
But wildfire was the earlier planned method of destruction of King's Landing. So dropping it was a major change. Since they were so ready to make major changes even within a season to their own plans it is not unreasonable to ask if they switched a "mad queen" arc off Cersei and tried putting it on someone.
Yes. Deciding after hearing the bells to detonate any wildfire she still had; or the caches the Mad King still had ready. Possibly convinced she could win, but mainly to spite her enemies. If she's going down, she's taking as many people with her as she can.
For me is Brynden "The Blackfish" Tully. They make him escape the Red Wedding, only to bring him back after 3 FREAKING SEASONS and kill him in 2 EPISODES. The siege of Riverrun arc had one of the worst conclusions ever, it's absolutely pointless. If they wanted to killl the character so fast then they could've at least had him espace the siege like in the books. Then have him fight in the Battle Of The Bastards and die thinking about his beloved niece Catelyn, maybe Sansa could even be there in his final moments. But no, they decide to kill him for no damn reason, making the Tully army look stupid as hell, and making Blackfish die in a last stand that we don't even get to see! And there's no excuse as "Clive Russell was too old to do a fight scene", cause they could just use a stuntman.
He wasn't even at the Red Wedding.
@@georgeprchal3924 In the books no, in the show he is. And the video is about the show.
@@hypnos3000 they should have followed that. Narratively it makes much more sense. Also he actually likes Edmure in the books unlike the show where he actively tried to kill him at least twice.
Can we give the Tarleys dishonorable mention? I mean, I know Randall and Dickon weren't really in the show much but dammit, the Tarleys were Targaryen loyalists and if a legitimate Targaryen ruler showed up with a dragon, well, Randall's knee would have been pre-bent. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, the TYRELLS were Targaryen loyalists so ol' Randall might have gotten a few bros together to avenge their liege lord (speaking of no consequnces, a Tyrell vassal is outside your gates, woman and you just don't fuck with Randall Tarley. Dany would have had not only Horn Hill but the possibly the entire army of the Reach. Drogon could have just perched on the roof of the Red Keep and sat the battle out. He wouldn't have been needed.
Jaime falling in love with Brienne over 5 Seasons, getting with her in the end only to do a 180 and go back to Cersei has the same energy as the HIMYM writers deciding to devote seasons to proving Ted and Robin do not work, devote an entire season to her marrying Barney and why they’re good together, only to pull that ending in the last 10 minutes of the show
Every time I think of Dany's character assassination, I always feel sorry for all the mums who named their daughters Khaleesi after season 1 when she was still a decent and morally good character 😂
I’m annoyed to no end about Jon not delving into not being a bastard his whole freaking life! It’s ridiculous.
Dorne got screwed as a whole. How many f*cking times did anyone reading any of the Kings'/Queens' titles say "King/Queen of the Andals and the first men" instead of, "King/Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the first men?" I think they mentioned the Rhoynar once in the whole series. I guess Dorne just pops in and out of existence like a quantum particle.
Tyrion: Who has a better story than Bran?
Stannis: Any of you I should think, even the cook.
Seriously Hot Pie has a better arc than Bran.
I forget who….but a long time ago, I saw a video made by someone who suggested the Great Council scene should not have sought to make Bran King, but deliberately facilitated the breakups of the 7 Kingdoms. I love that idea so much that’s my head vision for how this all ends.
@@robstewartstewart98 they could have seceded anyway. Who's gonna stop them? The idiot King in a wheelchair with no army? It takes a Targaryen to rule Westeros, no-one else can.
@@robstewartstewart98 That makes a lot of sense, the remaining houses giving up their sovereignty like that to some weird kid did feel awkward at the time. Like what did they even fight for?
@@jonstfrancis yep. Plus…..theoretically, some of the messages the show toys with towards the end COULD make sense. That being said…..so let’s say George didn’t say anything to the writers about Danys dark turn, but did say Bran would end up King, right? In addition to shock value (which is a terrible reason in this context), I see how/why the show writers felt the need to start thinking “so how do we have Dany not end up Queen?” However, the execution was SOOOOOO clumsy! I see why some people are concerned the way the show tried to criticize Dany’s arc implies ANY (serious) effort to help the slaves of Essos was a mistake.
Dany not being Queen or ending up with Jon? I’m down with that. Bran being in a position of great power at the end? Totally for that. But in retrospect, I think being more willing to use and explore magic in this setting (even if it involved making stuff up) AND having Dany and Tyrion go to White Harbor first, might have helped things.
In all my imaginings, I don’t ultimately come up with a decent (IMO) way for Dany to become a villain. Still, you can make Jon and Dany not be in charge, breakup the realm, and have Bran be in a position of great power.
If you’re going to criticize the “hero comes to town” archetype, goal should be to more explicitly be “there’s always a ‘now what?’, and “things built by force can be fragile”.
@@robstewartstewart98 I still think Dany and Jon should have been made the rulers, but it seems to me D&D tried to buy off the majority of the viewers with some Stark fan service with Arya killing the Night King and then Bran made king. I'd also have been happy with a variety of endings and even surprises like Dany being killed in battle or something. But not Bran being made king, that sucks and Arya jumping from little tomboy to super-killer went beyond credulity even for a fantasy show. The last 2 seasons were - as you put it - clumsy and the end awful; rushed and unbelievable.
I can see Dany going crazy in the books cause it really hammers in how much she actually revels in violence and how frustrating it is for her as she tries for peace. Also how much her mind is getting fucked with by magical ppl like quiathe & the undying.
The show tho really leaned into her care for innocents and didn’t add a lot of nuance to when she killed ppl. It also didn’t help the story basics stopped criticizing other characters violent actions but then double downed on vilifying Dany for it
This is so true! What crazy is that, even in S1 you can catch little drops of dialogue that even Areys the Mad king wasn’t always mad, and how his madness slowly ate him from the inside out. They didn’t have the same energy for Dany tho, she wasn’t even “mad”
She doesn't revel in cruelty but will use it to strike at her enemies. "A Prince should never flinch from being blamed for acts of cruelty necessary for securing the realm or their own person."
You left out hearing voices as well as Euron using magic to get into her dreams. That said there are plenty of moments she seems nicer than GoT Daenerys. But lets not forget that earlier plans for season 8 had wildfire as what wrecked the city and the show writers changed things while season 8 was being made. With major changes like that going on at the last minute like that we should not assume GoT was actually following GRRM's plans for the books. I argue books and show are different stories and they couldn't even stick with their plans for the show.
So instead of just asking if D and D messed up a book arc while trying to follow it ask if it is possible they broke with some book arcs for different characters in large ways. This involves questioning the assumption they would follow GRRM's ideas-in at least some ways they broke from them.
@@pplr1 Another point of why the books might be very different is I don't believe GRRM's publishers would let the show runners have major spoilers why would allow the risk to book sales. Example in the books the wild fire left all around the city by the mad king is never cleaned up. So it could be that in the books maybe dany accidentally sets it off (or someone else) like they were planning to do in the show and the publishers were like nope can't use that try again.
@@fwgoalie4life Maybe. Now I doubt publishers have that kind of authority over D and D but if somehow they did that could be another thing. Maybe D and D wanted do something that would define a difference between season 8 and the story GRRM is writing.
The mighty fearsome all conquering Night King, who was going to wipe out all of Westeros....stabbed by a girl.
As was the mighty fearsome all conquering Mother of Dragons.
The Daenerys of the last two seasons is a completely different character from the one in season one. To me, the development doesn´t feel organic.
I always go back to the idea that would have to be established : Daenerys has a history of intentionally killing the innocent. That never happens in the show or the books.
She has a thing about going out of her way to not do the expedient thing.
There is a reason it does not feel organic. It is not. The earlier plans for season 8 itself had wildfire be what wrecks King's Landing. The show writers made a change after work had already started on making season 8-so pretty late. There was no buildup for 1 dragon burning the city because that wasn't the earlier plan. I suspect they made some of the changes they did for both shock value and intended character assassination. After all if season 8 Dany did not intend for the city to burn then is Jon as likely to agree to an assassination attempt-probably not.
So no this is not character development so much as (I suspect) realizing there is something of a plot hole and then trying to cover it up in a way that created new plot holes.
I don't know... maybe something that would have worked for Dany burning down King's Landing would be a riot of the common folk, in which Missandei dies, so Dany starts seeing the common folk as enemies.
@@Leshantra Or maybe D and D could have just kept the earlier plan of wildfire burning down the city and not switch it to 1 dragon supposedly did it all.
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For me number one is Varys. Close number two is Littlefinger. These are two of the smartest people in the story, they were always behind the scenes manipulating everything. There would be no story without their schemes. When Arya killed Littlefinger I felt numb and stopped caring about the show. It was the stupidest death of all. As soon as he caught wind of Dany being in Westeros, he would have slithered over to her to worm his way in. He should have gotten the death that Varys got.
I will be very disappointed if Jaime sleeps with Brienne in the books and I agree that he is number 3 on the list. Way to ruin 6 seasons of redemption arc for a cliche ending.
I always expected Dany would die at the hands of Jon, and unlike a lot of people, I never warmed to her character in the show or books, by the time the burning of KL happened I didn't care anymore, I was only watching to see what utter nonsense the show runners would come up with next. Missing from the list is House Martell. Doran and Hotah went out like chumps. Ellaria Sand and the Sandsnakes were nothing like their book characters and since most of the Dorne storyline was left out and the rest was changed beyond recognition and had zero impact to the way the show played out in the end, they should have just left them out entirely like they did with Arianne and Quentyn.
They did Stannis dirty too. It's clear to me that after season 4 Dan and Dave stopped consulting with George and thought they could do better. That's when it all started to fall apart, logic fled and characters stopped being themselves. It's true that a character can only be as smart as the person writing them, and that's why Tyrion, Varys, Littlefinger, Stannis and Doran, to name a few had to be sidelined or killed. They just didn't know what to do with those characters.
For me the biggest sin of the show was not following the source material for Tyrion's adventures in Essos and Young Griff. Dinklage would have knocked it out of the park.
After Jon came back from the dead, he did nothing except get cucked and kill Dany for reasons..... They should have just left him dead. If the showrunners were getting burned out, they should have passed the torch to someone who cared and knew the source material instead of rushing everything and trolling for Emmys over telling the story George wrote. There was plenty of material left to adapt, they just didn't want to keep going.
The Sandsnakes were only brought in to virtue signal feminism. Completely agree with you about Doran and Hotah. The show was so good at taking great characters and shitting all over them.
Thank you for noticing that D and D were breaking from GRRM's story.
Absolutely horrible writing at the end. Spot on with your analysis.
I hated Dany's Mad Queen arc in the show. In the show she flips her lid because she...heard some bells? Wtf?
Dany in a way reminds me of Brienne. Bienne is "lawful good" she believes in and upholds honour, loyalty, and being a compassionate person she's one of the few morally unimpeachable characters on in the series. But she's never been tested she has never been put in a position where she has to choose. Love, or honour? Mercy, or duty? Renly never asked her to bring him her father's head, but what if he had?
I think this is Danaerys. Her main goal is the Iron Throne, and she's doing some good along the way like freeing slaves, and yes while her methods can be brutal, they're usually directed at people who deserve it. The two dovetail together.
I think Dany will break bad in the books but it won't be because of some fricken bell. It will be because her general desire to do good in the world and her desire to win will come into conflict. Would Dany give up on the Iron Throne if it meant the deaths of a few thousand innocents?
If you put varys his ending worst than stannis I don't feel stannis ending was that bad
My issue with Varys is like Tyrion, they totally reimagined his character from the first 4 seasons, so by the end I felt like whatever they did with them felt fitting. In fairness, I feel like I would have included him in a top 15 though.
Stan the Man Baratheon losing to "20 good men" from that fat, poxy bastard Ramsey Snow? Hogcock.
Totally agree with this list!
I thought Arya was going to get a spinoff.
Burning the people of King's Landing was unjustified. Only an aristocrat would blame the weak for failing to liberate themselves. If you consider what the people of King's Landing would need to make a revolution, the resources, organization, forms of communication, expecting them to liberate themselves is a frivolas thought. Dany believed she was entitled by birth. She was a dragon. Her early life was hard. But she eventually enjoyed the care of slaves, sevants and soldiers. She loved and had no problem with Khal Drogo, a megalomaniac who killed, destryoyed and raped those he conquered. She conquered citiy-states. She all but effortlessly freed slaves. She eventually had WMDs, and used them to kill tens of thousands of defenseless individuals. Mostly, her enemies had no answer to her dragons. Any Dream of Spring could not have Dany as its end point. She embodied the wheel she wanted to break. She thus needed to die for Westros to have a chance at moving beyond the slaughter bench it had been in the past. This is true even if she began her reign by dedicating Westros permanent war-making.
Cersei's death wasn't empty- that's like saying Robb's death was empty because he said his mom's name and died. In that case, well no shit. If all you do is measure a character's last moments, then probably 99% of the deaths are "empty". Cersei feeling at peace, knowing her brother was her soulmate, they might go to a better place together holding hands, and she got away with crazy shit for 8 years straight. It was, "You're right, my love. Maybe it is time for us to go. Together." That was her ending, and it worked for me, 5 years ago and now.
"If you care about that kind of thing." Yeah, she died in his arms like the prophecy said. I guess I care about that kind of thing.
“Wrap his hands around your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”
They didn’t include the valonqar part of the prophecy in season 5 opening, but it still would have been a good callback for the book fans.
I mean, ignoring the fact that the prophecy says her little brother will kill her, not hold her in an embrace, that part wasn't even mentioned in the show. Also ignores how GRRM feels about prophecy and the many hints he gives us that we shouldn't trust it.
Why would anyone be a Stannis loyalist?
I think the whole thing centers around his desire to serve the realm to become king versus becoming king to serve the realm aspect in ASOS is what many cling to.
varys got a bad ending
In retrospect.........I think George should have not bothered with the Bravvos arc, had Arya and the Hound arc quickly join up with Sansa and Lady Stoneheart, had Tyron quickly get to Dany, no Robert Strong/Mountain return (screw Clegangebowl) and no Dany returning to the Dothraki Sea (can't have the Dothraki charge the field if they dont come over with Dany). Heck......there are things you can do for the story to create a scenario where Dany and Tyrion go straight from Essos to White Harbor rather than Kings Landing/Dragonstone first.
Heres an alternate timeline then........George completes Winds of Winter (and makes it the last book) in 2017, with the last season of the show (season 7) coming out in 2018.
As for me........i decided to just kinda fuse multiple fan theories from a bunch of great fan theorists out there together, and write a fan fic where George decides to just write a blog post where he says what the plot points for the last books will be. Then printed it, stabled it, and put it on my shelf next to the books. Created some nice perspective. Helped me both imagine changes to the show I would have made.....AND some scenes I pretend happen during and after the series we got.
STANNIS THE MANNIS
Brienne sucked so bad
Danny didn't really go mad until watching her 2nd baby (dragon) die and sink beneath the waves that's when she really lost it and has every reason to yes she kept the dragon closest to her hee number 1 baby but the other to dying took its toll on her and when the 2nd baby died she just couldn't handle it and didn't care weather u were innocent or not at that point same with her warriors when they stormed the city