Spinning = Winning? An in-depth look at Figueyredo's rule 14 with Greatsword against Polearms
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 มิ.ย. 2024
- Hey everyone! This video is yet again brought on by the insane amounts of people having opinions about greatswords and pikes over on TikTok and Instagram. Actually diving into the topic a bit deeper was in order, so I decided to do a video to talk about what's in the fight book, why spinning here makes sense, why the most obvious counters don't work (and which one does) and finally how sparring can show us how Figueyredo's techniques fit in context.
If you'd be interested in supporting the channel or are looking for extra content in general, have a look at Patreon: www.patreon.com/virtualfechts...
Fencers:
Dirk, Finn, Fleur and Oskar
0:00 Intro
1:26 What does the fight book say?
2:57 Why spinning?
4:16 Potential counters
6:04 What we learned from sparring
7:50 Conclusions
Music courtesy of epidemicsound.com
#Messer #fencing #Spear #Sword #HEMA #Historical #European #Martial #Arts #Historical #Fencing #Historical #Fencing #Westernmartialarts #Middleages #medieval #Martial #Arts #Martialartist #Instructor #Athlete #Fitness #Fightingfit #Fighter #warriors #knights #Swordplay #machete #technique #Training #lecküchner, #history #historical #research #swordfighting #sparring #context #greatsword #montante #zweihander #knife #dagger #moustache #messer - กีฬา
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The fact that we have spins like this against a pike in both European and Asian sources (I know of spins in Chinese and Korean manuals specifically) seems to suggest that it actually works and can not be dismissed by saying the author didn’t know what they were talking about.
Yeah, I agree. I've heard from a couple of people now that Asian sources show the same thing, but most people on social media seem to think that context and nuance is for losers, so then you get arguments like that. It's a bit infuriating, but also important to keep up the content and try to educate people.
Rule of thumb: if you hear someone saying "rule is to never do X", they propably know less than they think they do
Exception: safety
Agreed! :D
I agree on the comment and conclusion here, however I cannot seem but fatom why most folks use "rule of the thumb" incorrectly, basically speaking (PHYSICS speaking) it's one of general rules of electric current and magnetic field emission... not "based", "general rule of X"... why it went down this way? :D
Funny coincidence: you see this exact spinning move used in Japanese martial arts against longer weapons.
ok weeb lol
Nice, didn't know that! :D
Very cool to know, but I'm not surprised since similar situations with similar weapons often results in coregent evolution. After all people are people.
Ballet "spotting" is something that may be useful for anyone wanting to spin with a large weapon. There are msny uoutube vids on it. Basically it's a way to keep your eyes on the target as long as possible while spinning & it helps prevent dizziness.
I know! A club mate who's also a great ballet dancer has been coaching me with this lately. It's great for rule 14, but even better for things like rule 8 or the ones against many opponents. Directing the head just makes a huge difference. :)
@@VirtualFechtschule Awesome to hear it's been working for you & others! In history dancing & fencing often shared concepts so to me looking to older dance styles for ideas to try in swordplay seems natural.
Also germane to spinning backfists and other unarmed spinning techniques as well. Early in my muay thai training, well before I ever discovered HEMA, our gym would do skillshares with the ballet studio next door, and spotting was far and away the most useful and applicable element of dance in regards to martial arts that I gleaned from the dancers.
I’m down here looking for Anakin Skywalker saying, “See, I KNEW it was a good trick!”
Hehehe, now we just wait. :)
I really love the theme of great swords. This is indeed the one of the most misunderstood weapons in mass culture.
Omg! I've been talking about how pikes were used in smaller scale fights. I hate when people say you can just get past the pike's point and you win (but somehow this doesn't apply to swords fighting shorter polearms)
Have you tried drawing a dagger instead of a sword when dropping the pike?
Great video!
It is *technically* a matter of getting past the point, and you have pretty much won, but it's not that easy to do if the person with the pike knows what they're doing, so yeah, agreed. :) We haven't tried dagger to be fair, but I think that trying to use it as a sidearm against a greatsword is pretty much doomed. I can see it working when at first just trying to grapple and draw the dagger once you have the person with the sword in a position where you can do that (but the same would perhaps also be true for a katzbalger). Otherswise, I don't think it would change much.
@@VirtualFechtschule Well with the sword it seems like you can't even draw it at all. I'm not a fencer, so I'll just defer to your opinion.
@@Red-jl7jj yeah. It will make it easier to draw, that's true. But the utility of having a short weapon against a longer one that's already on its way is really limited. And the bigger the reach difference, the more difficult that gets.
Loved this response video, I was fully convinced that spinning made sense once you showed footage from the perspective of the polearm user where you stepped out of their centerline.
If there is a general rule for spinning it must be "Consider it if you are past the point and can do it safely". Keep up the excellent work, always good to see armour and more unusual weapons in action.
Thanks, will do! :)
Great content as always.🙂 Eagerly waiting the next one.
@8:42 YES! Form your pike square! IT MUST HAPPEN!
I think it definitely will! :)
Although we'll start with 2v2's since, that will be really cool too! :)
This is so cool; I love what you guys are doing! I just got the short in my feed and had to subscribe, looks like I gotta bingewatch the other content too 😁You guys are probably dealing with a deluge of 'OH BUT SHOULDN'T YOU DO THIS' commentary already so I don't think any contribution from my side would do much. However, in the interest of learning and seemingly having a shared interest in these sorts of martial arts, I've been practicing a style of Kenjutsu for about seven to eight years now; we incorporate Yari(long spear, about the same length as what you guys are using) into our curriculum as well, which includes different postures and ways of retracting the spear. As you probably know, with that sort of thing in mind and when performed in sparring, a spear is eye-blindingly fast - to such a degree that I would not dare remove the capacity of either keeping pressure on the weapon or at least being able to meet it again if need be; most of what 'we' do is try and keep the spear in a bind/lock and move in as quickly as possible, and even then it's extremely intimidating! Might I recommend(and, again, feel free to discard it, I'm just another youtube commenter after all!) having the spear side attempt a number of different forms of spear withdrawals and having the swordsman try to deal with those? For myself, and this is just 'me', but I still fear someone decent with a spear would retract and try to impale me the second I committed to the spin(or even broke contact) - especially one decent at managing the distance. I would also have my comment be put into that light, it's not meant as an 'AH THIS DOESN'T WORK' and more of an 'Ah, cool, but, also, and, possibly... what if?! Oh shit there's way too much to learn!!' - as seems to be a common theme in swordsmanship. This is a terrible representation of what I mean, .. I believe the quality has to do with the fact that we aren't really ''allowed'' to put these sorts of exercises on the internet; if I were to do this, I would probably have my membership withdrawn by the guys in Japan! Either way, quality being what it is, it does demonstrate the forms somewhat and might perhaps provide a means of learning(for the spear user!) th-cam.com/video/GhN36LoDUO8/w-d-xo.html - if it's too unclear, I might be able to record something at a more realistic pace later(although we'd have to handle it a bit more privately!). Anyway, thanks for the video and looking forward to watching the rest!
Love your videos, especially with landsknecht stuff
Thank you! There's more coming the next few weeks. :)
Great work!
Thank you! :D
.. i remember that part that it might have a jump in it. My Interpretation was a swing to bring the pole to the side (right foot backwards, normal step as you swing) to come to right food forward.. here you can do a 360 jump as many asia martial arts have (like tornado kick in english) and swing the sword instead of the kick. I had done this myself with a spadone.. not tried it against pike myself though.. very interesting video and good work on the topic🎉
I've always thought the pike-halberd-greatsword was like rock paper scissors. sword beats the pike, halberd beats the sword, pike beats the halberd.
in my experience the halberd's head is too heavy to be deflected with a greatsword, so it has advantage against the sword. but the pike wins out on reach against the halberd. while the sword can dominate the pike in the bind and also wins out on maneuverability.
also, in pike blocks the pikemen have little room to retreat or shorten their pikes, so a well armored greatswordman could approach if he can get past the pike points. which is probably while halberdiers were often defending pikemen blocks.
my solution? cannon fire.
Ah, I had been experimenting with trying to make pirouettes work with a sword (because I've been thinking about how witchers fight in the books) and I'd somehow more or less arrived at this spin. Fascinating stuff. Also had to make a video I'd been sitting on for a while and threw you a mention (but I doubt you'll get any traffic this way from that lol).
More stuff on greatswords is always welcome. I just wish I could find someone to do some shaft cutting videos with now that the snow's finally gone...
Don't witchers use long (probably bastard) swords tho?
@@Sip_Dhit Most interpretations lean that way, yeah. I don't recall if it's specified that Geralt always uses two hands, but the guards they use are definitely from sabre, and in some of the media it's occasionally a one-handed sword.
The pirouette I'd concluded on doesn't really work with a one-handed sword, though.
Thats incredibly interesting. It feels to me less like spinning in the way that people assume it's meant, but more like using the momentum of your weapon strike for a series of evasive steps.
Now what I would be curious about is this: What if the pikeman went into full offense after his first stab had been deflected. I'm talking head down, running at the other guy trying to ram/tackle him to get into a spot closer than the effective range of the longsword and only then attacking with a smaller sidearm?
I know this would probably be dangerous, but since no of the other ideas seem to not work either I wonder.
Good on you for standing up to the backlash, never back down. I must admit, I too was highly skeptical of the spin. However, siting the source is what changed my opinion. In the future, you could avoid a lot of drama by siting the exacat source and providing a link so others can educate themselves.
Thanks! And yeah, that's a good idea. When I made the original short, it was really poorly contextualised, because the channel was still really small and most viewers knew me in real life so that wasn't needed either. Then the video blew up, and I learned to just really clearly say what I'm trying to show. Even then the comments are still a bit rough sometimes, but at least that's not on me now. :)
@@VirtualFechtschule That makes sense. It's great you are able to learn from harsh criticism rather than let it crush you, a sign of a true warrior. Btw, I've noticed there are numerous keyboard warriors who refuse to accept facts, even if logical explanations are made and good historical sources are linked. I've struggled to defend other channels against this but sometimes there is no convincing them.
@@vaskil99 Yeah. I just stop arguing nowadays. Not worth the effort.
Well done! very concise and informative video, who would have thought spinning had some actual situational use. (Dw I still dont like Hollywood sword fights.)
Great Video
I'm already looking forward to the video where all the weapons of a Gewalthaufen are used together
Thanks! That video will come one day. First we need more work with pikes in groups, and then we add the halberds, guns and swords. :D
@@VirtualFechtschule Great👍 I think this is the only way to really understand these weapons
This needs to be tested in formation as well, when there's more than one point to worry about.
This is actually very interesting, i really thought the pike could do more harm when reacting, but here i stand corrected, well done👍 and yeah, melee combat is almost always a play of bait to get your counter done. I might integrate this information in my LARP combat, thank you for this 😁 those pesky polearm users won't know what got them 😈
Excellent! Let me know how that goes! :D
@@VirtualFechtschule will do, though it might take a while, given the time of year 🥲
Although the sword win in this, but in reality, long spear is used in formation, which means that there are layers of spear, making it harder to engage. In sparring, long spear is not used, but shorter polearm is used with secondary weapon.
Very interesting! In general a spinning move is just a flashy "Hollywood swordsmanship" kind of thing but in this context it really makes sense - it means you can carry the momentum of your swing at the same time as the evasive footwork.
Very much so! :)
Как быть с тем что копейщиков обычно в разы больше чем мечников, хотя бы из-за разницы в цене оружия и сроках обучения. Пока выполняются все эти балетные трюки товарищ копейщика протянет мечника раза три. Не поворачиваться спиной к врагу - первое правило😂
As I see it, pike is pretty hard to use in 1 on 1 fight, when the person with great sword parring my first pike strike it would be better to me, to throw the pike out and draw my catzbalger or some type of short sword to be able to make some defend. Pikes are useful only in pike formations when 1 row of spears overlaps the other.
The pike has a pretty big advantage with reach though, so if a person with a pike can exploit that, the pike is very potent in a 1v1. There's really no formation needed for pikes to be good weapons (althought their effectivenes is multiplied in formation). Drawing the sidearm... well... we tried it and it really didn't work well at all. You have very little time so at close range you won't make it, and at long range you now have a short weapon against a longer one that is already in motion to hit you.
If pikes weren't effective in one-on-one scenarios, why do we have so many historical manuals that address single combat with the pike? Various Spanish masters wrote about the question of montante against the pike & other staff weapons. In many cases, they lumped the pike together with shorter staff weapons. My Spanish isn't perfect I'm still working on it, but nothing I've read from Jerónimo Sánchez de Carranza or Luis Pacheco de Narváez gives me the impression that pike was unsuitable for single combat. George Silver explicitly gave the full pike the advantage over anything shorter than this perfect length of 8-9ft for unarmored single combat in the open. Joseph Swetnam wasn't as clear but generally considered reach a huge advantage & noted various techniques for using pikes in single combat. Antonio Manciolino recommended the 12-14+ft lancia over the 8ft spiedo. Etc. Similarly, military manuals describe irregular pikers who supported the shot & fought without keeping ranks. Skirmishing with pikes in small groups appears to have been rather common in 16th-century warfare in both Western/Central Europe & China.
@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 Agreed. I'd like to add earlier sources such as Hugo Wittenwiler, Kölner fechtbuch, Paurenfeyndt and Mair + Meyer to that list too. Especially Wittenwiler and Meyer have sections that clearly apply to earnest skirmishing or battlefields. :)
Definitely agree this technique was written by someone with a lot of military experience and who was the weapon master of the crown prince of portugal iirc. Imo it's quite a fancy technique and the spinning is also especially important against thrown weapons, where deflecting or sucessfully parrying may not be enough. What i find interesting is that almost none of the other masters write about this topic and if, they often have different methods.
For battlefield i think they did different kind of things and that for the most part great swords were not expected to go against pikes directly but if they would be protected by armour and normal parries may suffice since the pikes were up to extremes such as 5 meter. One thing i noticed is that this technique is a bit awkward when done with heavier great swords (3,5 kg in my case). Germany military sources as far as i remember do not really write anything about it, so a test video with two big pike blocks would be great. with the correct measurements for placing pikes and short arms it could give a lot of new information.
The hate for spinning is overblown i remember at least two rapier manuals where spins were included. Anyways good video.
looks like without the spin you give the pikeman a lot more time to back away from you.
Could be, but there's also the one at the end of sparring where I nail the timing and get them before they've even fully reversed. :) It is more timing sensitive I think though.
Watch out, here I come
Hehehe, nice! :)
ok if you do these ***** shorts again,... give it some context. it matters!
i was of the believe you want to break a pike formation with that spinning.
which is still ridiculous in my opinion.
maybe add the rather more important point if sword against speer that you need pass the distance right away or the speer pick you apart, if i didnt just missed it.
fun fact: i just come from a formation fight event (13vs13) and will be on it tomorrow again.
the zweihänder guy tried... he tried... maybe tomorrow in the "gate keeping" scenario.
Yeah. To be fair, I did make something like that and it was too long to be a ... well... short... XD Basically doing anything to a pike block that isn't throwing your own pikes at it or shooting it is pretty much doomed to fail, but from our own massed pike experiments, we have found that the swords get a lot of utility when the coherence of the formation gets broken. Armour also changes things significantly in favour of more versatile weapons such as swords or halberds. I'll get really in depth for this for a future video, somewhere this year, but I need to get enough people together to make that work. :)
@@VirtualFechtschule i agree. we used the longswordsmen for flanking when no archers were involvedor just to bind attention. we used archers the first time this week end and it also changed everything.
so dont get me wrong, i am not against "try and find out" even a fail is new knowledge.
the armor thing got us into few discussions actually (we counted ever hit anywhere) and there is where i reckon the biggest deviation from reality.
...i counted the arror to my face tho. quite the experience! as speerman 3rd line taken out right away.
@@moxigen Hehehe, Insert Skyrim meme. We're going to be intensifying our pike training with more 2v2 bouts to train people to coordinate and or switch targets. Once the pike people got that, I think I'd like to really pressure test what the value of third rank halberd/greatsword is going to be. We have had some previous experience, but I'd love a looooot more sparring experience with that
@@VirtualFechtschule looking forward for these videos and am prepared for mean comments! :p
Oh cool, you're wearing your tassets
Couldn't you just side step without the spin?
You see the sword has a certain momentum. The movement of the sword carries you as much as you carry it.
It's pretty difficult to do because of the momentum. The third variation of the composite rule has that against a thrust coming in low, and it is pretty difficult to do that one well in my experience. Sidestepping without the deflection is not great either, because it does help quite a bit (in one of the sparring exchanges the pike person loses control and has to let go even).
@@derpy9306 I appreciate the attempt, but I‘m a physicist you don‘t have to explain angular momentum lol. That still isn‘t a good enough reason to turn your back on your opponent.
@@VirtualFechtschule But deflecting and side stepping seem to work in other scenarios.
@@REALdavidmiscarriage What scenarios specifically?
See, when you said, "Whoever committed first would tend to lose," you lost me. Pikemen were a) in bands, so 1 on 1 combat essentially never happened, and b) typically they were there to protect a line of muskeets. So if you don't commit first, then you'll just be shot. So there's no point trying to use teaching from the time and make it historically accurate because it simply isn't.
And there isn't any "which is better" debate because 90% of the viewers should have enough braincells to understand that these 2 weapons were used for completely different purposes.
For the record, you can also take that lunge to the side without spinning your body. Plus, you'd have more control and would be less likely to slip in the mud(meaning your near guaranteed death in a real battle).
Cesare d’Evoli notes from the outset that pikes should be at least fifteen feet long, the longer the better. Excessive length, of course, will make the weapon less manoeuvrable, but this is of little consequence in a dense pike formation.