Some people here keep saying Lutherans are wrong about the Catholic Church dogmas concerning Mary. The Lutheran question is always: Where is it written in the Bible? Jesus said: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only". We are asked then: What is worship? Easy: All kinds of devotion, prayers, thanks giving etc. Also, God said through Isaiah: "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols". I come to admire our fellow Catholic brothers who think Mary is so important for the church, in a sense that they should talk about her, give thanks to her, pray to her every time they go to their service. Then we see non of the apostles (especially in the epistles) talking about her, giving thanks to her or praying to her. Only the historical books mention her. Why? Because you cannot talk about Jesus' human life without mentioning his earthly mother. That's all. The Church Fathers gave the same honor to Mary Lutherans do. She was chosen to be the mother of God in this World... Altough you should never forget: chosen by Jesus (who is eternal) to be his mother. Jesus, as the Word of God (John 1: 1-3), created everything, including Mary. The term "theotokos" applies to Mary to glorify Jesus, not her. If you think Mary is capable of hearing your prayer in the same time someone in Brazil is praying to her, you're undoubtly giving Mary qualities of God: omnipresence and omniscience. Believe only what the Bible says. Nowhere your kneeling to Mary is encouraged in the Word of God. Remember what Jesus says: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only".
You are rough. Martin Luther had the same beliefs about the Virgin Mary as do Catholics. here are Six Quotes from him: 1) Mary was without sin “God has formed the soul and body of the Virgin Mary full of the Holy Spirit, so that she is without all sins, for she has conceived and borne the Lord Jesus.” 2) Mary was a perpetual virgin “Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb… This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that. […] Christ… was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him.” 3) On the veneration of Mary “The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.” 4) Mary is the mother of all Christians “Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees… If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother.” 5) You can never honor Mary enough “[Mary is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ… She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.” 6) Mary has no equal among creation “She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child…. “Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God…. None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.”
Luther is not the foundation of my faith but the Bible. Everything he said is based upon human understanding and not the Word. Anyway, I respect that when he meditated about the life of the mother of God, that means Jesus, he could strengthen his relationship with God and the people beside him. Don't get me wrong: I think Mary is worth some of our attention as do all the other saints. They were people that served God, in spite of being sinners. However I kneel only before Jesus, not them.
Luke 1:28 - And coming to her, he said, "Hail, full of Grace! (Highly favored one) The Lord is with you." The Angel Gabriel states that Mary is full of grace (kecharitomene [Gk] = perfected in grace). Some translations use “highly favored” which is a poor translation from the Greek. “Full of grace” means there’s no room for sin. This verse indicated that she was very special. Lk 1:37 - “For with God nothing shall be impossible.” While Rom 3:23 states “all have sinned,” this does not include Mary, just as it does not include Christ, babies, or Adam and Eve before the fall. “All” in the case (Rm 3:23) is used in a general sense. To be full of grace is to be void of sin. Like a glass full of water has no air in it. Complete darkness has no light. Etc. (1John 1:7) 1. The Bible teaches we are saved by God's Grace (Eph 2:8-9) 2. To be full of God's Grace is to be saved. 3. Therefore in this verse Mary is saved. 4. The Bible teaches us that we need God's Grace to live a holy life free from sin. (Rom 6:14) 5. To be full of Grace is to be sinless. 6. Therefore Mary is sinless. 7. The essence of being full of Grace is being sinless, and the Immaculate Conception can be directly deduced from Scripture by it’s very definition of Grace. The only way to deny this is to deny that Grace does not save and/or that Grace is not that power which enables us to be sinless and holy
That is a perversion of exegesis. The Greek is clear: Nominative, Feminine, Singular, Perfect Participle, in the Passive voice, of Xαριτóω. The grace is bestowed upon Mary, by God, that means she is "favored", not sinless. The deduction you've made afterwards is laughable. A question remains: Why would Mary be sinless and still need a Savior? (cf. Lk. 1:47).
We honor Mary.......we do not pray to her.........that's the meaning of the "Magnificat".......honor her. as the blessed mother of Jesus, God in the flesh............not pray to her.......
Thank you for posting brother in Christ. I will pray for the Lord to strengthen your heart for service work for his glory and to richly bless you now and in the new Earth. It is his promise to those who love him as it is written. I recently joined a local Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. I am thankful to the Lord for providing this church the servants of God there are so loving and gracious but bold to stand on the word and share in the sufferings of Christ. Blessed be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who is blessed forever.
From this example, we can see that being "highly favored" is not synonymous with being worthy of worship. Everyone in the body of Christ is highly favored because God has accepted us through the justification brought about by Christ's sacrifice.
I'm glad to say that I'm a Lutheran (LCMS). Nothing is better than doing it by the book like the early church did. I used to be kind of iffy about this church a few years ago before I joined, but once I began to learn what this Church was about I realized that I was in the right place.
You should check the book 2 Thessalonians 2:15. Futhermore the new testament was written about 70 to 110 years after the death of our Lord. This means that the new testament itself was for a while was taught by tradition.
I follow the Roman Catholic version I think. I don't know the Lutheran version yet. I went to Lutheran School growing up but recently officially became Lutheran here in my new town. It has been a journey. (Baptist parents and Catholic inlaws)
teresa powell Hi......thanks for the background information. Since you admit that you have been on a journey I hope that you will be open to continued learning (just as I am too!). There is nothing wrong with using a rosary as a way to say a list of prayers (as long as it is not mechanical) but the Lutheran objection would be to certain prayers that are used......and especially some about Mary.....and especially praying to her. If you do not yet have a Book of Concord every Lutheran Should have one. It contains all of the documents of the Lutheran Reformation, including Luther's Small Catechism. The best one to use is from Concordia Publishing House: " A Reader's Edition of the Book of Concord. You can get it at www.cph.org or at www.amazon.org. It will help you in your new Lutheran Faith.
Pastor Lassman I use it mainly as a meditation tool and help to focus on Jesus's journey through his life. I have a good relationship with my Pastor and he has been very helpful answering a lot of questions. i am sure I have a Book of Concord upstairs somewhere from my days in Lutheran School (3rd-9th grade). I am very open to learning, very, very open~ Thanks for your responses.
I'm so glad that I found those series of videos. I'm a Lutheran too and those videos are quite familiar and closer to heart for me than other Christian videos.
@raphyortanez HI....I assure you that I am not mad! Thanks for your comment. Lutherans also "honor" Mary as Theotokos, which may or may not surprise you but we do not pray to her or any other Saint. The real problem here is that Roman Catholics don't always have the same PRACTICE when it comes to Mary. There is a lot of variety in practice..........so I believe that what I said is true, if not for ALL Roman Catholics, then at least for many. Thanks for your kind response!
Hi..thanks for your comments..we argee, I think, on the communion of the Saints...I think we disgree on praying to them. the Lutheran, Martin Chemnitz, wrote four volumes on the Council of Trent and in volume 4, pages 357 to507 he gives the Lutheran response to Trent's teaching on the invocation and veneration of the saints..should be you be intersted you can find this book at Concordia Publishing House: Martin Chemnitz "Examination of the Council of Trent", part III (of four volumes.
Thanks again for this, Pastor. Oddly this came up this week in an editorial in the Wall Street Journal by a (presumably) Roman Catholic theologian who brought up this idea of Mary's "Immaculate Conception" and attributed to a papal bull proclaimed in 1854!! Wow, at least 1500 years removed from Christ's ministry and early church orthodoxy...
Thank U pastor, it is truth that who ever dies in Christ is still alive. So because Elijah and Moses appears together with Jesus, that it s a ground to pray God through them? That is not what has said in Jn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. So, based on these verses, should we pray to God via "mary", or via any given dead "saints"?
@mrstjs Thank you. My wife's Lutheran - I believe she'll convert when her parents pass. She get's it. She get's us. She gets that we don't bend with the wind. Not a Protestant denomination in 1930 supported contraception. Few oppose it today. Why? Did Truth change or did we? There are deep, deep reasons for what the Church teaches on everything and they all dovetail beautifully well. The more I learn the more I fall in love with Christ and his bride to whom He gives himself perfectly.
sorry for the error for I meant to say:" we all know that God does not lie, otherwise He wouldn't have told mary that He didn't go to His Father, in Heaven."
4 REASONS YOU SHOULD NOT PRAY TO MARY 1. THERE IS ONLY ONE MEDIATOR 1 Timothy 2:5 says, There is one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity-the man Christ Jesus. This confirms we don’t need a “go-between.” We don’t need a middle-man (or woman) beyond Christ. When Jesus died, shed His blood, and was raised from the dead the need to have someone (e.g. high priest) represent us was ripped away just like the curtain that tore from top to bottom. 2. GOD ALONE SHOULD BE WORSHIPPED Luke 4:8 says, Jesus replied, “The Scriptures say, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’” Praying to Mary and/or any living or deceased saints is an act of worship…which is reserved for God alone. When Jesus modeled prayer (Matthew 6:7-13) He began with, “Our Father in Heaven.” No where in Scripture is it suggested that we pray to Mary or any other deceased saints. 3. MARY WORSHIPPED JESUS AS GOD In Acts 1 the disciples and about 120 believers were in an upper room waiting for the promise of the Holy Spirit (at Jesus’ command). Guess who was present with them? Mary. What was she doing? Praying. Acts 1:14 says, They all met together and were constantly united in prayer, along with Mary the mother of Jesus, several other women, and the brothers of Jesus. It’s important to note that the apostles weren’t praying to Mary as a go between. She was joined with them in prayer…to GOD. 4. MARY WAS A SINNER IN NEED OF A SAVIOR According to Psalm 51:5 we are all born as sinners in need of a Savior, Mary included. Mary was highly favored, not sinless. There is not one scripture to support that Mary was without sin. JESUS is the only one who never sinned (2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 4:15, 1 Peter 2:22) which explains why Mary had to be impregnated by the Holy Spirit. Extras * The Bible is about JESUS, after all Jesus is the Living Word (John 1:14). The Old Testament points to JESUS. The New Testament is about Jesus. The authors of the four Gospels saw JESUS as the central figure and only mention Mary in reference to JESUS. The word “Jesus” is mentioned 1,478 times in the New Testament. The word “Mary” is only mentioned 55 times and some of those are in reference to Mary Magdalene. Also, Jesus is referenced in 26 of 27 New Testament books. * Mary can’t hear you. Only God can hear all of our prayers as He is the only one omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. * Mary was not even recognized in Scripture as a leader in the early Church. Peter is the one who stood up, addressed the crowd, and preached in Acts 1, not Mary. * JESUS is the only Way, Truth, and Life. No one can come to the Father, except through JESUS.✝️
St. Linus. Irenaeus, in Against Heresies (A.D. 190), said that Matthew wrote his Gospel while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church. A few lines later he notes that Linus was named as Peters successor, that is, the second pope, and that next in line were Anacletus (also known as Cletus), and then Clement of Rome.
I said what I said. That there is no salvation outside the Church does not contradict that the Church of Christ subsist in the Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome. What I say is how it is.
In the Church Ordinance of 1571, Archbishop Laurentius Petri (Church of Sweden) wrote: "We use vestments, altar and altar cloths, chalice and paten, etc. We have no hesitation in calling the Lord's Supper the mass. Nor is it forbidden to call this sacrament a sacrifice, as that sacrifice which our high priest Christ himself once made on the cross is now made present in the mass."
According to the Catholic church, as I personally have heard and read it means "realizes" in English. That means; I can have a catholic faith although I am not yet confirmed and in communion with the bishop of Rome, and yet be saved. Maybe we do agree but we have used different way of expressing things.
Mysterium, you are absolutely right to said that NOTHING UNCLEAN WILL ENTER HEAVEN. Therefor the only possible time for us to be clean is when we are still alive (that's the moment of grace), and the blood of Jesus Christ purifies us from any sin, 1JN 1; 7..
The references to Mary in Luke 1 are the core scriptures that Catholic scholars use to try to prove that Mary is worthy of our worship. It is evident that the verses say little more than that Mary was given grace and favor by God, as we all have. They simply cannot be used as a starting point for establishing a doctrine of worship.
In verse 28, Gabriel tells Mary in his salutation that she is "highly favored," and in verse 30, that she "has found favor with God." The Greek word translated highly favored means "to grace," "to endue with special honor," or "to be accepted." The only other place it is used is Ephesians 1:6, where Paul says to the church at Ephesus and to the body of Christ generally, ". . . to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."
A couple of problems here. No one that sits with Jesus is dead as they are alive in Him. Through His sacrifice & compassion, we share in His flesh & blood, & as long as a Christian has made it to His Kingdom, there is no separation in the one body of Christ. That is what Christianity is & is all about. Death does not separate those that die in Gods grace. Never has, never will. We are promised eternal life if we live with faith in Christ and show our faith by acts of love.
And this is perfectly in line with what the Church has believed of its self and the authority of the Bishops with emphasis on the Bishop of Rome (Pope) since the beginning. If you notice (in the full text) everywhere that the word "We" or "Us" is used in the middle of the sentence, it's Capitalized. That's not "bad grammer" or misspellings. It's done on purpose to emphasize the meaning.
I just wanted to add in this except from a sermon by Methodius of Olympus written in 305, well before the Council of Ephesus in 431 and some 1300 years before the Reformation. "Hail to you for ever, you virgin mother of God, our unceasing joy. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son's love for man. Wherefore, we pray you, who boastest in the confidence of your maternal honours, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance." Oration on Simeon and Anna
@grayhog86 The fact is that the Lutheran understanding of the real presense - according to the Catholic Church - in itself is not church dividing, at least if the belief is that the consecrated bread and wine (with Jesus Christ) remains consecrated until consumed. That is why Lutherans may adore the blessed sacrament also outside the Mass.
As a lutheran Christian, I agree with you 100% of the Protestant/American-Evangelica confusion of Praying TO instead of Praying WITH. What makes the Hail Mary problematic for Lutherans, is asking Mary to pray for us (not because she doesn’t, but because we have no Word of God in which to trust). There is no verse or text in the Old Testament, Deuterocanonical books or the New Testament that encourages, informs, or request of believers to direct their prayers to anyone else but the Beloved.
Jesus addresses St. Peter directly 7 times in this short passage. It doesn't make sense that He would address everything to St. Peter and then say, 'By the way, I'm building the Church on Me.' The context seems pretty clear that Jesus gave authority to St. Peter, naming him the rock.
Sanctify by your Spirit this bread and wine, which earth has given and human hands have made. Here we offer them to you, that through them we may partake of the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. On the same night in which he was betrayed, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying: Take, eat. This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me."
"So in what way does Jesus, as the foundation or chief cornerstone, pertain to the apostles and prophets? They revealed the gospel message which made known to the world about Jesus as the foundation of the church and how people can become members of that church. They were His ambassadors (2 Cor. 5:18-21). Peter had the keys of the kingdom (Matt. 16:18,19), which he used when he preached the sermons that taught people how to enter."
I have seen ppl go a bit overboard with the Marian thing, I think at 1 point in history a nun called her a goddess, she was excommunicated. Anyway so catholic practices like the rosary and the Angelus are interpreted like worship. When I pray the rosary I mediate on the events of Christ in which Mary was present; silently watching and for me it emphases the humanity of Christ, tht he was also human. For we learn and recognise our humanity fundamentally through our parents
Luther encouraged praying the rosary early on, but as he grew in understanding of Christian doctrine, no longer supported it. He continued to have great respect for Mary's example. The Hail Mary prayer and the rosary changed over time. I do not know any Lutherans trusting solely in Christ who pray the rosary.
"Oh higher than the Cherubim; More glorious than the Seraphim; lead their praises, Alleluia! Thou, bearer of the-eteranl Word; Most gracious, magnify the Lord, Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia, Allelu-------ia!" Protestants have sung that hymn in all churches...and this verse is a direct reference to The Virgin Mary. It is quoting the "Magnification" as it is worded in The Liturgy of St. John Chrystosom. "More higher than the Cherubim, More glorious than the cherubim;
That is really the key point. And the position of the Church of today is that this statement do not really contradict the statement of the Dogmatic Council, but it is more accurate.
James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected. John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.
U R absolutely right that it's umbiblical to follow your logic. -Since when a greeting becomes a prayer?? -If God have a MOTHER, it is logical to imply that He must also have grand-parents as well as uncle, cousin, aunts, and so forth... You can't have it both ways. And there isn't a 2 without a 1. Did Mary had parents or not??
Hi..........well, could I recommend an LCMS congregation near you? I would be happy to give some suggestions............thanks for your comments...........
ccontinued.."This is consistent with the Catholic understanding. This dictionary goes on to define latria as follows (p. 803): As contrasted with dulia, that fullness of Divine worship which may be paid to God alone. "
. Though her characteristics varied from culture to culture, the common element is that the Mother was the Queen of Heaven, and she bore fruit even though a virgin.
Ah the age old defense! Its important we scratch under the surface here. In Luke 1:28 we see in the Greek kecharitomene. Other references to grace in the NT refer to a "highly favored daughter" of which Mary was, but bc of the Greek we see more emphasis than that. The term in Luke means "to fill or endow with grace" in the perfect tense giving Mary the term "full of grace" from in the past to the present. Therefore God preserved her from original sin. Rom. 9:11 makes exception to your comment.
Jesus especially emphasized that prayers have to be made on His name to the father. Christians (prayers)----> Jesus----> God. This diagram shows that Jesus is the only intercessor as well as the only intermediate between men and God. Thank U Pastor.
I'm not a Jehovah Witness, for they don't believe Jesus is God, I am a born again Christian, saved by Christ and washed by the precious blood of Jesus. I don't belong to any movement, and I don't wanna bear any religious movement's name, for none of them died for me on the cross, but Jesus, that's why I am a CHRISTIAN.
what is the difference between to adore and to venerate someone? When you adore a person, you bow before him or her, likewise when you venerate a person, you bow before him or her
@lichtbroeder Yes, Lutheran here. I pray for reconciliation between the Lutheran church and the Catholic church every day. I like your term "evangelical catholics" :)
Um Iam Lutheran and all of those things you have said was all Catholic beliefs and I am a Lutheran and my church teaches that Mary is a vessel to God not “Queen of heaven” we believe that she is the “Holy Theotokos” Martin Luther said in his Book of Concordia. 👍✝️
...continuation..... So I would say that the practice of saying either, "through the prayers of our holy fathers..." or "through the prayers of the Theotokos...." ACTUALLY CONFIRMS the Lutheran understanding of the Communion of Saints, rather than stand in opposition of them! To remember and honor the WHOLE BODY OF CHRIST, whether in heaven or earth, I would say, is completely meet and right as long as the act of "INVOCATION" is directed to God himself. What say you?
If you want to learn about purgatory, there are plenty of references out there to check. You certaintly dont need me to show them to you. If you have an interest in learning about it research it yourself.
1 Cor 3 10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?... From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life
Aside from the little that the Bible says about Mary, there are other significant biblical principles that directly contradict a doctrine of Mary-worship. We could examine a whole host of scriptures relating to human death and resurrection to show that Mary is in the same condition as the rest of the dead in Christ-awaiting the resurrection, without consciousness, and not in heaven (Psalm 146:3-4; Ecclesiastes 9:5; Job 14:12; John 3:13; Acts 2:29-34; I Corinthians 15:12-55;
Hi..we Lutherans honor Mary and also consider her the mother of God..You are correct the New Roman Catechism describes devotion to Mary and not adoration. My undergraduate degre is in Reformation History and I am familiar with Luther and Mary..thanks..Pastor Lassman
He describes the foundation of this temple as the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus being the chief cornerstone. This is like 1 Peter 2:4-8 and Psalm 118:22 where Jesus is also said to be the chief cornerstone. Likewise, 1 Corinthians 3:11 says there can be no foundation other than Jesus Christ (cf. Matthew 16:18 where Jesus - not Peter - is the stone on which the church is built).
Artikel X in Confessio Augustana: 1] Of the Supper of the Lord they teach that the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present, and are distributed 2] to those who eat the Supper of the Lord; and they reject those that teach otherwise.
I was raised Catholic and I protest against the Protestant idea that we worship Mary. Mary's special status didn't magically start in the middle ages. She was always held in special reverence by Christian community since the beginning of Christianity. The Orthodox rites also hold her in special reverence as Theokotos or "God Bearer". God loves all people, but it would be natural to assume that Jesus would have a special relationship to her because she is His mother.
Luke 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in GOD MY SAVIOR. 48 For he hath regarded the LOW ESTATE OF HIS HANDMAIDEN: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. Mary says in black and white that her soul rejoyced in God her Savior. So, that implied that Mary needed to be saved as well as U and I. She wasn't born sinless, neither U, nor me.
@grayhog86 I'm an LCMS Lutheran. I have a beef with the LCMS re: contraception actually...they should have a stronger position against it, because the LCMS is firmly prolife. We do pray for reconciliation between Catholic/Lutherans every Sunday. At least in my parish, you would not know the difference stylistically between Catholic and Lutheran. I watch alot of Catholic masses on youtube..a few of the settings are the same.
@lichtbroeder HI..........I used the term protestant to refer to what is technically called "reformed" Christians........but many people do not understand that term...but there are differences between Lutherans and "Reformed"..........so I call them "Protestants" in contrast to "Lutheans" as a teaching devise........most people do not understand how Lutherans are different from other "protestants"... we see see oursevles as "evangelical catholics".......
John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.
If Peter was the first pope, then he was the foundation upon which Christ built His church but, if Peter was the foundation of the church, then Paul was an imposter because he declared that Christ is the foundation and the only foundation upon which men can build their hopes. If Peter was the foundation of the church, to say that he must have successors is to say that a foundation succeeds a foundation under a building!
.."See, I am laying a cornerstone in Zion, an approved stone, and precious. He who puts his faith in it shall not be shaken." The stone is of value for you who have faith. For those without faith, it is rather, "A stone which the builders rejected that became a cornerstone." It is likewise "an obstacle and stumbling stone." Those who stumble and fall are the disbelievers in God's word; it belongs to their destiny to do so (1 Peter 2:6-8).
God bless as you are a true Christian that has come home to where Christ wants you to be. The RCC is like a beautiful piece of artwork where we should never truely beat anyone over the head with, if you know what I mean. But there are times where the most anticatholic have to open there eyes & see the many untruths that they believe in, & how much it contradicts scripture, even in its most simplest form. And your statement is the perfect example of how Mary CAN & DOES bring you closer to Christ.
"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-18
I suggest you read the Confessio Augustana Invariata and the other writings of the Reformation. That is also the position of the Catholic Church that Lutherans believe in the real presence.
I found it ironic as well that he makes the claim it was the Catholic Chruch that played God out to be a stern judge when this concept is found in the writings of Luther and Calvin. It is the Catholic Church that has had to defend the image of a loving father.
HI..thanks for your comment but if Lutheran is the same as catholicism Martin Luther would not have been excommunicated by the Pope...an excommunication that still stands..Pastor Lassman
@nschaub Greetings pastor Lassman! It is true that some people - not too few actually in some places - may cross the line and more or less adore her. But the important thing is was the Church teaches and believe, which is in the Catechism, and that is not too difficult for Lutherans to accept, although the tradition is different.
I'm not preaching my own Gospel, for I'm against prayer to Mary; I'm against the doctrine of (purgatory, papacy, prayer to the saints, infallibility of the pope, and many more catholic unbiblical doctrines). We can only pray to God through Jesus Christ 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. P.S. He didn't said in Mary's name, did he.
do U agree with your pope? "The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh." Catholic National July 1895 "We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty" Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894
Please clarify for me (a lutheran CHristian) what the difference is between "worship" "adoration" "veneration" "adulation" "creature-worship" "devotion" ? And how might the actions of Mexican Roman Catholics for the lady of Guadalahara be called (which term should we use)?
Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death. Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family. 1 Cor. 4:9 because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.
And, since Protestants always rely on scripture alone, I have one to show that asking for Mary's intercession works--read the Wedding of Cana passage sometime. Jesus turns water into wine because His mother intercedes on the couples' behalf so they won't be embarassed by running out of wine at their wedding.
HI..I'm not sure I know what your are talking about. I'm a Lutheran so how is my teaching Roman Catholic and why am I a fasle teacher? Could you explain please. Thanks.....Pastor Lassman
It is my hope that we can teach the world about the Catholic Church and its beautiful teachings that have become unclear to those separated from us. Lets pray that this pastor comes home and for so many others out there who need the truth in their lives.
Hi........we don't have an "official" bible in the sense that only one can be used....but currently the LCMS uses the English Standard Version........in he past we have also used the New International Version........and going back decades ago.......the King James Version.......
KJV not a false translation! Thats one of the bests that I have heard yet. The purgation was believed even in the Jewish world. There are biblical references for it.
The KJV 1611 is the only Bible version that is NOT changed since its publication, contrary to order version, especially the catholic version who are changed more often.
Some people here keep saying Lutherans are wrong about the Catholic Church dogmas concerning Mary. The Lutheran question is always: Where is it written in the Bible? Jesus said: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only". We are asked then: What is worship? Easy: All kinds of devotion, prayers, thanks giving etc. Also, God said through Isaiah: "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols".
I come to admire our fellow Catholic brothers who think Mary is so important for the church, in a sense that they should talk about her, give thanks to her, pray to her every time they go to their service. Then we see non of the apostles (especially in the epistles) talking about her, giving thanks to her or praying to her. Only the historical books mention her. Why? Because you cannot talk about Jesus' human life without mentioning his earthly mother. That's all. The Church Fathers gave the same honor to Mary Lutherans do. She was chosen to be the mother of God in this World... Altough you should never forget: chosen by Jesus (who is eternal) to be his mother. Jesus, as the Word of God (John 1: 1-3), created everything, including Mary. The term "theotokos" applies to Mary to glorify Jesus, not her.
If you think Mary is capable of hearing your prayer in the same time someone in Brazil is praying to her, you're undoubtly giving Mary qualities of God: omnipresence and omniscience.
Believe only what the Bible says. Nowhere your kneeling to Mary is encouraged in the Word of God. Remember what Jesus says: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only".
You are rough. Martin Luther had the same beliefs about the Virgin Mary as do Catholics. here are Six Quotes from him:
1) Mary was without sin
“God has formed the soul and body of the Virgin Mary full of the Holy Spirit, so that she is without all sins, for she has conceived and borne the Lord Jesus.”
2) Mary was a perpetual virgin
“Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb… This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that. […] Christ… was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him.”
3) On the veneration of Mary
“The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.”
4) Mary is the mother of all Christians
“Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees… If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother.”
5) You can never honor Mary enough
“[Mary is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ… She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.”
6) Mary has no equal among creation
“She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child…. “Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God…. None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.”
Luther is not the foundation of my faith but the Bible. Everything he said is based upon human understanding and not the Word. Anyway, I respect that when he meditated about the life of the mother of God, that means Jesus, he could strengthen his relationship with God and the people beside him. Don't get me wrong: I think Mary is worth some of our attention as do all the other saints. They were people that served God, in spite of being sinners. However I kneel only before Jesus, not them.
Luke 1:28 - And coming to her, he said, "Hail, full of Grace! (Highly favored one) The Lord is with you."
The Angel Gabriel states that Mary is full of grace (kecharitomene [Gk] = perfected in grace). Some translations use “highly favored” which is a poor translation from the Greek. “Full of grace” means there’s no room for sin. This verse indicated that she was very special. Lk 1:37 - “For with God nothing shall be impossible.” While Rom 3:23 states “all have sinned,” this does not include Mary, just as it does not include Christ, babies, or Adam and Eve before the fall. “All” in the case (Rm 3:23) is used in a general sense.
To be full of grace is to be void of sin. Like a glass full of water has no air in it. Complete darkness has no light. Etc. (1John 1:7) 1. The Bible teaches we are saved by God's Grace (Eph 2:8-9) 2. To be full of God's Grace is to be saved. 3. Therefore in this verse Mary is saved. 4. The Bible teaches us that we need God's Grace to live a holy life free from sin. (Rom 6:14) 5. To be full of Grace is to be sinless. 6. Therefore Mary is sinless. 7. The essence of being full of Grace is being sinless, and the Immaculate Conception can be directly deduced from Scripture by it’s very definition of Grace.
The only way to deny this is to deny that Grace does not save and/or that Grace is not that power which enables us to be sinless and holy
That is a perversion of exegesis. The Greek is clear: Nominative, Feminine, Singular, Perfect Participle, in the Passive voice, of Xαριτóω. The grace is bestowed upon Mary, by God, that means she is "favored", not sinless. The deduction you've made afterwards is laughable. A question remains: Why would Mary be sinless and still need a Savior? (cf. Lk. 1:47).
Allan Breda She would need a Savior because it is he who made her sinless.
We honor Mary.......we do not pray to her.........that's the meaning of the "Magnificat".......honor her. as the blessed mother of Jesus, God in the flesh............not pray to her.......
Hi..thanks for your comments! and the Lord be with you........Pastor Lassman
Thank you for posting brother in Christ. I will pray for the Lord to strengthen your heart for service work for his glory and to richly bless you now and in the new Earth. It is his promise to those who love him as it is written. I recently joined a local Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. I am thankful to the Lord for providing this church the servants of God there are so loving and gracious but bold to stand on the word and share in the sufferings of Christ. Blessed be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who is blessed forever.
It is so nice to hear from you! I also pray for you and your faith in Jesus in your new congregational home. The Lord be with you!
Peter understood Christ to be the cornerstone, the foundation of the church, and was obviously referring to Him in this passage:
From this example, we can see that being "highly favored" is not synonymous with being worthy of worship. Everyone in the body of Christ is highly favored because God has accepted us through the justification brought about by Christ's sacrifice.
I'm glad to say that I'm a Lutheran (LCMS). Nothing is better than doing it by the book like the early church did. I used to be kind of iffy about this church a few years ago before I joined, but once I began to learn what this Church was about I realized that I was in the right place.
You should check the book 2 Thessalonians 2:15. Futhermore the new testament was written about 70 to 110 years after the death of our Lord. This means that the new testament itself was for a while was taught by tradition.
I am Lutheran and I pray the Rosary every single day. Martin Luther Loved Mary. If I am not mistaken, he too, said the rosary, nightly.
teresa powell I love Mary too. Do you follow the Roman Catholic version of the Rosary......or is it adjusted to more Lutheran teachings?
I follow the Roman Catholic version I think. I don't know the Lutheran version yet. I went to Lutheran School growing up but recently officially became Lutheran here in my new town. It has been a journey. (Baptist parents and Catholic inlaws)
teresa powell Hi......thanks for the background information. Since you admit that you have been on a journey I hope that you will be open to continued learning (just as I am too!). There is nothing wrong with using a rosary as a way to say a list of prayers (as long as it is not mechanical) but the Lutheran objection would be to certain prayers that are used......and especially some about Mary.....and especially praying to her. If you do not yet have a Book of Concord every Lutheran Should have one. It contains all of the documents of the Lutheran Reformation, including Luther's Small Catechism. The best one to use is from Concordia Publishing House: " A Reader's Edition of the Book of Concord. You can get it at www.cph.org or at www.amazon.org. It will help you in your new Lutheran Faith.
Pastor Lassman I use it mainly as a meditation tool and help to focus on Jesus's journey through his life. I have a good relationship with my Pastor and he has been very helpful answering a lot of questions. i am sure I have a Book of Concord upstairs somewhere from my days in Lutheran School (3rd-9th grade). I am very open to learning, very, very open~ Thanks for your responses.
Pastor Lassman i was going to send you a private message on here and can't figure out how to do it.
I'm so glad that I found those series of videos. I'm a Lutheran too and those videos are quite familiar and closer to heart for me than other Christian videos.
I prayed to our Mother Mary to save my life and She saved me! Blessed is the Mother of Christ.
@raphyortanez HI....I assure you that I am not mad! Thanks for your comment. Lutherans also "honor" Mary as Theotokos, which may or may not surprise you but we do not pray to her or any other Saint. The real problem here is that Roman Catholics don't always have the same PRACTICE when it comes to Mary. There is a lot of variety in practice..........so I believe that what I said is true, if not for ALL Roman Catholics, then at least for many. Thanks for your kind response!
Great..thanks for your comments and your kinds words...Pastor Lassman
Hi..thanks for your comments..we argee, I think, on the communion of the Saints...I think we disgree on praying to them. the Lutheran, Martin Chemnitz, wrote four volumes on the Council of Trent and in volume 4, pages 357 to507 he gives the Lutheran response to Trent's teaching on the invocation and veneration of the saints..should be you be intersted you can find this book at Concordia Publishing House: Martin Chemnitz "Examination of the Council of Trent", part III (of four volumes.
Thanks again for this, Pastor. Oddly this came up this week in an editorial in the Wall Street Journal by a (presumably) Roman Catholic theologian who brought up this idea of Mary's "Immaculate Conception" and attributed to a papal bull proclaimed in 1854!! Wow, at least 1500 years removed from Christ's ministry and early church orthodoxy...
This was very helpful. This big argument comes up a lot, especially online.
Thank you for your comment.
Thank U pastor, it is truth that who ever dies in Christ is still alive.
So because Elijah and Moses appears together with Jesus, that it s a ground to pray God through them?
That is not what has said in Jn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
So, based on these verses, should we pray to God via "mary", or via any given dead "saints"?
@bt804d HI.........thank you for your kind comments....and I too wish you God's richest blessings in His Son, Jesus. Pastor Lassman
@mrstjs Thank you. My wife's Lutheran - I believe she'll convert when her parents pass. She get's it. She get's us. She gets that we don't bend with the wind. Not a Protestant denomination in 1930 supported contraception. Few oppose it today. Why? Did Truth change or did we? There are deep, deep reasons for what the Church teaches on everything and they all dovetail beautifully well. The more I learn the more I fall in love with Christ and his bride to whom He gives himself perfectly.
Deuteronomy 18:11; 1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14; Psalm 139:7-12; Revelation 19:6; Psalm 147:4-5; 1 Timothy 6:14-15; 1 Timothy 2:5
sorry for the error for I meant to say:" we all know that God does not lie, otherwise He wouldn't have told mary that He didn't go to His Father, in Heaven."
Mary is dead and a disiple of Christ cannot pray to the dead.
4 REASONS YOU SHOULD NOT PRAY TO MARY
1. THERE IS ONLY ONE MEDIATOR
1 Timothy 2:5 says, There is one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity-the man Christ Jesus.
This confirms we don’t need a “go-between.” We don’t need a middle-man (or woman) beyond Christ.
When Jesus died, shed His blood, and was raised from the dead the need to have someone (e.g. high priest) represent us was ripped away just like the curtain that tore from top to bottom.
2. GOD ALONE SHOULD BE WORSHIPPED
Luke 4:8 says, Jesus replied, “The Scriptures say, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’”
Praying to Mary and/or any living or deceased saints is an act of worship…which is reserved for God alone.
When Jesus modeled prayer (Matthew 6:7-13) He began with, “Our Father in Heaven.” No where in Scripture is it suggested that we pray to Mary or any other deceased saints.
3. MARY WORSHIPPED JESUS AS GOD
In Acts 1 the disciples and about 120 believers were in an upper room waiting for the promise of the Holy Spirit (at Jesus’ command). Guess who was present with them? Mary. What was she doing? Praying.
Acts 1:14 says, They all met together and were constantly united in prayer, along with Mary the mother of Jesus, several other women, and the brothers of Jesus.
It’s important to note that the apostles weren’t praying to Mary as a go between. She was joined with them in prayer…to GOD.
4. MARY WAS A SINNER IN NEED OF A SAVIOR
According to Psalm 51:5 we are all born as sinners in need of a Savior, Mary included.
Mary was highly favored, not sinless. There is not one scripture to support that Mary was without sin. JESUS is the only one who never sinned (2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 4:15, 1 Peter 2:22) which explains why Mary had to be impregnated by the Holy Spirit.
Extras
* The Bible is about JESUS, after all Jesus is the Living Word (John 1:14). The Old Testament points to JESUS. The New Testament is about Jesus. The authors of the four Gospels saw JESUS as the central figure and only mention Mary in reference to JESUS. The word “Jesus” is mentioned 1,478 times in the New Testament. The word “Mary” is only mentioned 55 times and some of those are in reference to Mary Magdalene. Also, Jesus is referenced in 26 of 27 New Testament books.
* Mary can’t hear you. Only God can hear all of our prayers as He is the only one omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.
* Mary was not even recognized in Scripture as a leader in the early Church. Peter is the one who stood up, addressed the crowd, and preached in Acts 1, not Mary.
* JESUS is the only Way, Truth, and Life. No one can come to the Father, except through JESUS.✝️
St. Linus.
Irenaeus, in Against Heresies (A.D. 190), said that Matthew wrote his Gospel while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church. A few lines later he notes that Linus was named as Peters successor, that is, the second pope, and that next in line were Anacletus (also known as Cletus), and then Clement of Rome.
I said what I said. That there is no salvation outside the Church does not contradict that the Church of Christ subsist in the Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome. What I say is how it is.
In the Church Ordinance of 1571, Archbishop Laurentius Petri (Church of Sweden) wrote:
"We use vestments, altar and altar cloths, chalice and paten, etc. We have no hesitation in calling the Lord's Supper the mass. Nor is it forbidden to call this sacrament a sacrifice, as that sacrifice which our high priest Christ himself once made on the cross is now made present in the mass."
According to the Catholic church, as I personally have heard and read it means "realizes" in English. That means; I can have a catholic faith although I am not yet confirmed and in communion with the bishop of Rome, and yet be saved.
Maybe we do agree but we have used different way of expressing things.
Mysterium, you are absolutely right to said that NOTHING UNCLEAN WILL ENTER HEAVEN. Therefor the only possible time for us to be clean is when we are still alive (that's the moment of grace), and the blood of Jesus Christ purifies us from any sin, 1JN 1; 7..
The references to Mary in Luke 1 are the core scriptures that Catholic scholars use to try to prove that Mary is worthy of our worship. It is evident that the verses say little more than that Mary was given grace and favor by God, as we all have. They simply cannot be used as a starting point for establishing a doctrine of worship.
In verse 28, Gabriel tells Mary in his salutation that she is "highly favored," and in verse 30, that she "has found favor with God." The Greek word translated highly favored means "to grace," "to endue with special honor," or "to be accepted." The only other place it is used is Ephesians 1:6, where Paul says to the church at Ephesus and to the body of Christ generally, ". . . to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."
Actually means highly favored
A couple of problems here. No one that sits with Jesus is dead as they are alive in Him. Through His sacrifice & compassion, we share in His flesh & blood, & as long as a Christian has made it to His Kingdom, there is no separation in the one body of Christ. That is what Christianity is & is all about. Death does not separate those that die in Gods grace. Never has, never will. We are promised eternal life if we live with faith in Christ and show our faith by acts of love.
And this is perfectly in line with what the Church has believed of its self and the authority of the Bishops with emphasis on the Bishop of Rome (Pope) since the beginning.
If you notice (in the full text) everywhere that the word "We" or "Us" is used in the middle of the sentence, it's Capitalized. That's not "bad grammer" or misspellings. It's done on purpose to emphasize the meaning.
I agree! Praise God for what He gives us in his Son!
I just wanted to add in this except from a sermon by Methodius of Olympus written in 305, well before the Council of Ephesus in 431 and some 1300 years before the Reformation.
"Hail to you for ever, you virgin mother of God, our unceasing joy. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son's love for man. Wherefore, we pray you, who boastest in the confidence of your maternal honours, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance." Oration on Simeon and Anna
@grayhog86 The fact is that the Lutheran understanding of the real presense - according to the Catholic Church - in itself is not church dividing, at least if the belief is that the consecrated bread and wine (with Jesus Christ) remains consecrated until consumed. That is why Lutherans may adore the blessed sacrament also outside the Mass.
As a lutheran Christian, I agree with you 100% of the Protestant/American-Evangelica confusion of Praying TO instead of Praying WITH. What makes the Hail Mary problematic for Lutherans, is asking Mary to pray for us (not because she doesn’t, but because we have no Word of God in which to trust).
There is no verse or text in the Old Testament, Deuterocanonical books or the New Testament that encourages, informs, or request of believers to direct their prayers to anyone else but the Beloved.
Jesus addresses St. Peter directly 7 times in this short passage. It doesn't make sense that He would address everything to St. Peter and then say, 'By the way, I'm building the Church on Me.' The context seems pretty clear that Jesus gave authority to St. Peter, naming him the rock.
Sorry Catholics don’t pray to Mary but we ask The MOTHER OF GOD TO PRAY FOR US!
Indeed. Please explain it to this confused pastor
@@IOT4747 That is the doctrine. The practice is that many "Catholics" worship Mary more than God or instead of God.
Sanctify by your Spirit this bread and wine,
which earth has given and human hands have made.
Here we offer them to you,
that through them we may partake
of the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.
On the same night in which
he was betrayed,
he took bread, gave thanks,
broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying: Take, eat.
This is my body,
which is given for you.
Do this in remembrance of me."
"So in what way does Jesus, as the foundation or chief cornerstone, pertain to the apostles and prophets? They revealed the gospel message which made known to the world about Jesus as the foundation of the church and how people can become members of that church. They were His ambassadors (2 Cor. 5:18-21). Peter had the keys of the kingdom (Matt. 16:18,19), which he used when he preached the sermons that taught people how to enter."
BUT even though our bodies may be dead, our souls are NOT. Then when Christ comes again, we are reunited body and soul.
Sorry if I have confused U, that was what I was thinking of U.
I appreciate U and I'm glad that U stand by the Bible on that point.
Also read: Lutherans and Catholics in Dialogue, III, The Eucharist as Sacrifice (1969) s.191-197, HM 51, BEG 205-207
I have seen ppl go a bit overboard with the Marian thing, I think at 1 point in history a nun called her a goddess, she was excommunicated.
Anyway so catholic practices like the rosary and the Angelus are interpreted like worship. When I pray the rosary I mediate on the events of Christ in which Mary was present; silently watching and for me it emphases the humanity of Christ, tht he was also human. For we learn and recognise our humanity fundamentally through our parents
Luther encouraged praying the rosary early on, but as he grew in understanding of Christian doctrine, no longer supported it. He continued to have great respect for Mary's example. The Hail Mary prayer and the rosary changed over time. I do not know any Lutherans trusting solely in Christ who pray the rosary.
Perhaps you could cite where Father Luther said not to pray the Rosary.
And of course, what authority did he have to say so?
There is more than one way to pray the rosary. You can trade out the hail mary for the jesus prayer.
"Oh higher than the Cherubim; More glorious than the Seraphim; lead their praises, Alleluia! Thou, bearer of the-eteranl Word; Most gracious, magnify the Lord, Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia, Allelu-------ia!"
Protestants have sung that hymn in all churches...and this verse is a direct reference to The Virgin Mary. It is quoting the "Magnification" as it is worded in The Liturgy of St. John Chrystosom. "More higher than the Cherubim, More glorious than the cherubim;
Greetings from Seattle! Thank you for your comments...let me know if I can answer any questions. Pastor Lassman
That is really the key point.
And the position of the Church of today is that this statement do not really contradict the statement of the Dogmatic Council, but it is more accurate.
@nschaub Thats sounds good! It would be nice to see a video of the liturgy in your church pastor Lassman!
James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.
John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.
U R absolutely right that it's umbiblical to follow your logic.
-Since when a greeting becomes a prayer??
-If God have a MOTHER, it is logical to imply that He must also have grand-parents as well as uncle, cousin, aunts, and so forth...
You can't have it both ways. And there isn't a 2 without a 1.
Did Mary had parents or not??
I think you could have read for yourself, but it is the people who signed the confession which was given to the Roman emperor.
Hi..........well, could I recommend an LCMS congregation near you? I would be happy to give some suggestions............thanks for your comments...........
I'm not claiming to be infallible, the pope is, that is found front center in the little catholic catechism book
ccontinued.."This is consistent with the Catholic understanding. This dictionary goes on to define latria as follows (p. 803):
As contrasted with dulia, that fullness of Divine worship which may be paid to God alone.
"
. Though her characteristics varied from culture to culture, the common element is that the Mother was the Queen of Heaven, and she bore fruit even though a virgin.
Type in "Mary in the early church" in Google to find an essay by Dr. Mark Miravalle. Should be the second one that comes up in the search
Ah the age old defense! Its important we scratch under the surface here. In Luke 1:28 we see in the Greek kecharitomene. Other references to grace in the NT refer to a "highly favored daughter" of which Mary was, but bc of the Greek we see more emphasis than that. The term in Luke means "to fill or endow with grace" in the perfect tense giving Mary the term "full of grace" from in the past to the present. Therefore God preserved her from original sin. Rom. 9:11 makes exception to your comment.
Jesus especially emphasized that prayers have to be made on His name to the father.
Christians (prayers)----> Jesus----> God.
This diagram shows that Jesus is the only intercessor as well as the only intermediate between men and God.
Thank U Pastor.
I'm not a Jehovah Witness, for they don't believe Jesus is God, I am a born again Christian, saved by Christ and washed by the precious blood of Jesus.
I don't belong to any movement, and I don't wanna bear any religious movement's name, for none of them died for me on the cross, but Jesus, that's why I am a CHRISTIAN.
what is the difference between to adore and to venerate someone?
When you adore a person, you bow before him or her, likewise when you venerate a person, you bow before him or her
@lichtbroeder Yes, Lutheran here. I pray for reconciliation between the Lutheran church and the Catholic church every day. I like your term "evangelical catholics" :)
Um Iam Lutheran and all of those things you have said was all Catholic beliefs and I am a Lutheran and my church teaches that Mary is a vessel to God not “Queen of heaven” we believe that she is the “Holy Theotokos” Martin Luther said in his Book of Concordia. 👍✝️
...continuation..... So I would say that the practice of saying either, "through the prayers of our holy fathers..." or "through the prayers of the Theotokos...." ACTUALLY CONFIRMS the Lutheran understanding of the Communion of Saints, rather than stand in opposition of them!
To remember and honor the WHOLE BODY OF CHRIST, whether in heaven or earth, I would say, is completely meet and right as long as the act of "INVOCATION" is directed to God himself.
What say you?
If you want to learn about purgatory, there are plenty of references out there to check. You certaintly dont need me to show them to you. If you have an interest in learning about it research it yourself.
1 Cor 3 10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?... From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life
Aside from the little that the Bible says about Mary, there are other significant biblical principles that directly contradict a doctrine of Mary-worship. We could examine a whole host of scriptures relating to human death and resurrection to show that Mary is in the same condition as the rest of the dead in Christ-awaiting the resurrection, without consciousness, and not in heaven (Psalm 146:3-4; Ecclesiastes 9:5; Job 14:12; John 3:13; Acts 2:29-34; I Corinthians 15:12-55;
Hi..we Lutherans honor Mary and also consider her the mother of God..You are correct the New Roman Catechism describes devotion to Mary and not adoration. My undergraduate degre is in Reformation History and I am familiar with Luther and Mary..thanks..Pastor Lassman
He describes the foundation of this temple as the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus being the chief cornerstone. This is like 1 Peter 2:4-8 and Psalm 118:22 where Jesus is also said to be the chief cornerstone. Likewise, 1 Corinthians 3:11 says there can be no foundation other than Jesus Christ (cf. Matthew 16:18 where Jesus - not Peter - is the stone on which the church is built).
Artikel X in Confessio Augustana:
1] Of the Supper of the Lord they teach that the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present, and are distributed 2] to those who eat the Supper of the Lord; and they reject those that teach otherwise.
I was raised Catholic and I protest against the Protestant idea that we worship Mary. Mary's special status didn't magically start in the middle ages. She was always held in special reverence by Christian community since the beginning of Christianity. The Orthodox rites also hold her in special reverence as Theokotos or "God Bearer". God loves all people, but it would be natural to assume that Jesus would have a special relationship to her because she is His mother.
Luke 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in GOD MY SAVIOR. 48 For he hath regarded the LOW ESTATE OF HIS HANDMAIDEN: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
Mary says in black and white that her soul rejoyced in God her Savior. So, that implied that Mary needed to be saved as well as U and I. She wasn't born sinless, neither U, nor me.
@grayhog86 I'm an LCMS Lutheran. I have a beef with the LCMS re: contraception actually...they should have a stronger position against it, because the LCMS is firmly prolife. We do pray for reconciliation between Catholic/Lutherans every Sunday. At least in my parish, you would not know the difference stylistically between Catholic and Lutheran. I watch alot of Catholic masses on youtube..a few of the settings are the same.
The doctrine of Purgatory was first established by Gregory the Great in 593 A.C.
HI ......I did not say that Rome made God into a stern judge...I said that they made JESUS into a stern judge..Pastor Lassman
@lichtbroeder HI..........I used the term protestant to refer to what is technically called "reformed" Christians........but many people do not understand that term...but there are differences between Lutherans and "Reformed"..........so I call them "Protestants" in contrast to "Lutheans" as a teaching devise........most people do not understand how Lutherans are different from other "protestants"... we see see oursevles as "evangelical catholics".......
The intepretation of the Catholic church today according the binding statements is what I say.
John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.
If Peter was the first pope, then he was the foundation upon which Christ built His church but, if Peter was the foundation of the church, then Paul was an imposter because he declared that Christ is the foundation and the only foundation upon which men can build their hopes. If Peter was the foundation of the church, to say that he must have successors is to say that a foundation succeeds a foundation under a building!
.."See, I am laying a cornerstone in Zion, an approved stone, and precious. He who puts his faith in it shall not be shaken." The stone is of value for you who have faith. For those without faith, it is rather, "A stone which the builders rejected that became a cornerstone." It is likewise "an obstacle and stumbling stone." Those who stumble and fall are the disbelievers in God's word; it belongs to their destiny to do so (1 Peter 2:6-8).
God bless as you are a true Christian that has come home to where Christ wants you to be. The RCC is like a beautiful piece of artwork where we should never truely beat anyone over the head with, if you know what I mean. But there are times where the most anticatholic have to open there eyes & see the many untruths that they believe in, & how much it contradicts scripture, even in its most simplest form. And your statement is the perfect example of how Mary CAN & DOES bring you closer to Christ.
"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Matthew 18:15-18
How does this explain the high view of Mary in the Oriental Orthodox churches who rejected the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD?
HI..I agree..Pastor Lassman
I did not mean the Bible but the scriptures of the Reformation.
I suggest you read the Confessio Augustana Invariata and the other writings of the Reformation. That is also the position of the Catholic Church that Lutherans believe in the real presence.
I found it ironic as well that he makes the claim it was the Catholic Chruch that played God out to be a stern judge when this concept is found in the writings of Luther and Calvin. It is the Catholic Church that has had to defend the image of a loving father.
HI..thanks for your comment but if Lutheran is the same as catholicism Martin Luther would not have been excommunicated by the Pope...an excommunication that still stands..Pastor Lassman
@nschaub Greetings pastor Lassman! It is true that some people - not too few actually in some places - may cross the line and more or less adore her. But the important thing is was the Church teaches and believe, which is in the Catechism, and that is not too difficult for Lutherans to accept, although the tradition is different.
I'm not preaching my own Gospel, for I'm against prayer to Mary; I'm against the doctrine of (purgatory, papacy, prayer to the saints, infallibility of the pope, and many more catholic unbiblical doctrines).
We can only pray to God through Jesus Christ 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
P.S. He didn't said in Mary's name, did he.
do U agree with your pope?
"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."
Catholic National July 1895
"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty"
Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894
Please clarify for me (a lutheran CHristian) what the difference is between "worship" "adoration" "veneration" "adulation" "creature-worship" "devotion" ? And how might the actions of Mexican Roman Catholics for the lady of Guadalahara be called (which term should we use)?
Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.
Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.
1 Cor. 4:9 because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.
good point tainerebelde. You may be on to something here. THere may be more commonalities and ways to form bridges between the 2 groups.
And, since Protestants always rely on scripture alone, I have one to show that asking for Mary's intercession works--read the Wedding of Cana passage sometime. Jesus turns water into wine because His mother intercedes on the couples' behalf so they won't be embarassed by running out of wine at their wedding.
HI..I'm not sure I know what your are talking about. I'm a Lutheran so how is my teaching Roman Catholic and why am I a fasle teacher? Could you explain please. Thanks.....Pastor Lassman
It is my hope that we can teach the world about the Catholic Church and its beautiful teachings that have become unclear to those separated from us. Lets pray that this pastor comes home and for so many others out there who need the truth in their lives.
Hi........we don't have an "official" bible in the sense that only one can be used....but currently the LCMS uses the English Standard Version........in he past we have also used the New International Version........and going back decades ago.......the King James Version.......
KJV not a false translation! Thats one of the bests that I have heard yet. The purgation was believed even in the Jewish world. There are biblical references for it.
The KJV 1611 is the only Bible version that is NOT changed since its publication, contrary to order version, especially the catholic version who are changed more often.