(305 A.D.) Methodius: “Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, we PRAY thee.” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14) (306-373 A.D.) St. Ephram: “Majestic and Heavenly Maid, Lady, Queen.” (Ad Caeli Reginam 10) (382 A.D.) Latin Vulgate: “I am the mother of fair love, way, truth, life, virtue.” (Sirach a.k.a. Ecclesiasticus 24:24-25) One mediator Christ, then says “Prayers, INTERCESSIONS made for all men.” (1 Timothy 2:1-2, 5), People MEDIATE for others: Mary for people in Cana (CCC 2674) (John 2:5), Peter for dead Tabitha (Acts 9:36-42), Paul for dead Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18) Moses for Israelites (Exodus 32:30-35), Abraham for Sodom (Genesis 18:22-32), Moses & Samuel in Heaven for Jeremiah on Earth (Jeremiah 15:1), Saul in Heaven for Samuel on Earth (1 Samuel 28:15-26), Priest prays to Jeremiah in Heaven & Jeremiah Apparition (2 Maccabees 15:12-16), Angels & Saints in Heaven MEDIATE (intercede) prayers for saints on Earth! (CCC 946-975) (Revelation 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:4)
(250 A.D.) “Sub Tuum Prayer: Beneath thy compassion, We take refuge, O Theotokos [God-bearer]: do not despise our petitions in time of trouble: but rescue us from dangers, only pure one, only blessed one.” (305 A.D.) Methodius: “Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, we PRAY thee.” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14) (306-373 A.D.) St. Ephram: “Majestic and Heavenly Maid, Lady, Queen.” (Ad Caeli Reginam 10) (382 A.D.) Latin Vulgate: “I am the mother of fair love, way, truth, life, virtue.” (Sirach a.k.a. Ecclesiasticus 24:24-25) One mediator Christ, then says “Prayers, INTERCESSIONS made for all men.” (1 Timothy 2:1-2, 5), People MEDIATE for others: Mary for people in Cana (CCC 2674) (John 2:5), Peter for dead Tabitha (Acts 9:36-42), Paul for dead Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18) Moses for Israelites (Exodus 32:30-35), Abraham for Sodom (Genesis 18:22-32), Moses & Samuel in Heaven for Jeremiah on Earth (Jeremiah 15:1), Saul in Heaven for Samuel on Earth (1 Samuel 28:15-26), Priest prays to Jeremiah in Heaven & Jeremiah Apparition (2 Maccabees 15:12-16), Angels & Saints in Heaven MEDIATE (intercede) prayers for saints on Earth! (CCC 946-975) (Revelation 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:4) St. Paul: “Pray for all Saints.” (Ephesians 6:18) “Pray for us.” (2 Thessalonians 3:1) “Pray one for another.” (James 5:16) Includes Mary, a Saint? YES!
@@eugene3484 Moses & Samuel in Heaven for Hebrews on Earth (Jeremiah 15:1), Moses lived long before Jeerimaih's time, and Samuel about 400 years before Jeremiah, yet they interceded for them from Heaven! No they were already in Heaven. The Saints in heaven are alive, God is the God of the Living!
The catacombs of Rome were constructed over a period of several centuries beginning in the second century AD and ending around the fifth century AD. In the catacombs, there are many inscriptions left by the early Christians. Here are a few examples: "Peter and Marcellinus, may you live in God." (Catacomb of Priscilla): This is one of the earliest known Christian inscriptions and reflects a prayer for the deceased individuals, Peter and Marcellinus, to live in God's presence. "Peter, pray for Victor." (Catacomb of Callixtus): This is a simple invocation asking the apostle Peter to pray for the deceased individual named Victor. It illustrates the early Christian practice of seeking the intercession of saints. "Lawrence, remember your sister Fabiana." (Catacomb of Domitilla): This is a request for the martyr Lawrence to remember and pray for his sister, Fabiana. It demonstrates the belief in the ongoing spiritual connection between departed believers and the living community of faith. "Remember me, Ursus, in your prayers, as you also wish to be remembered." (Catacomb of St. Sebastian): This is a reciprocal request for prayers between the deceased individual named Ursus and others who visit his tomb. It reflects the communal aspect of prayer and intercession in early Christianity. These inscriptions, among others found in the catacombs, provide insights into the early Christian belief in the communion of saints and the practice of requesting the prayers of departed believers, including martyrs and saints. They offer tangible evidence of the spiritual devotion and piety of early Christians and their belief in the ongoing intercessory role of the faithful departed.
Yet the early Church fathers wrote extensively against false teachings going on. List an early pre 5th century Church father that gave reasons for it . List a Bishop
This is a very late response, I requested this this topic in the comments of another video, and I would thank you greatly for making this video, and I apologize for not thanking you earlier
I wonder how protestants cope with the fact that since the founding of the apostolic church and up until the 15th century there wasn't a single church that didn't venerate saints? They believe the church was decieved and corrupted since the beginning and that God needed 15th century to reveal that veneration of saints was a mistake?
@@theodosios2615yes there is one mediator, but everyone in the body of Christ is an intercessor. We don’t cease to be intercessors or apart of the body of Christ once we die.
@@theodosios2615 This video gives multiple verses from both the Old & New Testaments to support veneration of Saints. You use one verse and completely ignore multiple verses that challenge your beliefs. The Catholic Faith is rooted in ancient Christianity. It requires a lot more than a cherry picked verse to understand it.
@@gabepeterson4420 Honoring Saints is one thing. But when you're praying to them, you're worshipping. There isn't a single instance in the scriptures where prayer isn't an act of worship.
@@theodosios2615 In Old English we did not have so much of a difficulty here. One could say to another, “Pray tell…” or, “I pray thee my lord…” In fact, the King James Bible gives us many examples of the term “prayer” being used analogous to the way Catholics use it when we “pray” to saints. With a touch of Old English, when Bathsheba makes a request of King Solomon in I Kings 2:20, the KJV has her say: “I pray thee, say me not nay.” There was never a question here of whether the King James Bible was presenting Bathsheba as adoring her son as God, or praying to him in a way that is forbidden. It was not. Nor are Catholics when we pray to saints. We certainly honor them when we pray to them. In other words, we do not talk to them like we talk to the boys at the local bar and grill. We show great respect and reverence for them. But we do not adore them as we adore God alone. And we also petition them for their prayers because Scripture makes very clear that we need each other as members of the body of Christ (see I Cor. 12:12-27
Early Christians of the 1st Cent. A.D. commanded and required to "LOVE (not sexually) & PRAY" for/to one another as Christ had taught the Apostles... and not to pray, ask petition (request/favor), supplication, devotion, and veneration to/for the Dead Apostles, Prophets, and Saints... Praise be to God in Christ Jesus... Amen.
❤❤ Please family of God , lets not argue. God is able to give each one of us the correct answer and when we have it we can pray for others in the family. Love to all. ❤❤❤
As a devout Protestant I first thank the enormous effort of the video, it is not easy to collect and study so much information, but also clarify several points, since the Protestant position is misrepresented as a straw man. 1. We are NOT against intercession prayers, intercession is one of our duties, a mandate, and a good thing. 2. The saints in heaven intercede and pray for us, there is no problem with that, some few will argue that the saints do not know what is going on here but clearly in scripture we are shown that they do have knowledge of the earth, and even the blood of the martyrs cries out, and the earth itself cries out (so the angels clearly do too). With that there is no problem. 3. Patrons were as their word indicates patterns to follow, now Catholics use it as the "chief intercessor of an area" but the original word means the patron, not "the intercessor of". So I don't agree that it can be used to support your point. 4. What we are not really in favor of is the invocation of the saints, that the church on earth can and should invoke them to contact them beyond death, a practice forbidden to the Jews and at no time did Jesus or the apostles teach that it could be allowed in the new covenant. Just as it was a sin for Saul to contact the prophets, so it must be for the church. 5. The fact that we cannot invoke them does not mean that they do not pray for us. 6. We are not against respecting, honoring and remembering the saints, but we consider that invocation is a sin and idolatry, therefore you would be being disrespectful to them by making them an object of worship. 7. As seen in the parents you comment, most speak as I said above that THEY pray for us, and in that we agree, the thing is that none is explicit in approving the invasion and very little of the video could be interpreted that way. 8. When in the writings of the fathers it is said "may Peter pray for us" or "may Mary be praying before Jesus for us" it is not the same as invoking the saints. It is one thing to show our desire that they do so, and our conviction that they are doing so, and quite another to invite them (and much worse to offer them things in exchange for their intercessions). If we were to say "may the angel Michael fight for us" or "may the angel Gabriel bring us God's answer quickly", it is NOT THE SAME as invoking the angel Michael to ask for his help, or invoking the angel Gabriel to hasten him by offering sacrifices. I know that maybe for Catholics it is hard to see the difference, but for us it is abysmal. The invocation is what is wrong, which I do not see in any of the passages shown in the video.
Thank you for your detailed response. I think the answer to the question of whether or not the invocation of the saints to request intercession is permitted or not depends upon whether or not God has opened up a channel of communication with the saints in Heaven through the communion in the body of Christ, which transcends death. Such communication is forbidden in the Old Covenant because God did not establish any such channels of communication with the dead, so attempting to speak to them was disobedient to God's designs and would have either been superstitious or taken recourse to demonic power. If, in the new covenant, there is a means of relaying a request to a saint in Heaven which was licitly established by God (by virtue of the communion we share in Christ) than there is no moral impediment to relaying requests for intercession since requesting the intercession of others is always approved. The purpose of the principles at the beginning of this video are to show that if asking for the intercession of a person on earth is not idolatrous, then there is nothing essentially different about asking for the intercession of a soul in heaven. The only difference is whether or not it is a part of God's plan that we relay requests to the souls in Heaven. It would be idolatrous if we relayed such requests based on the assumption that saints in Heaven were omniscient and could hear even our inward thoughts. We do not believe this - we believe that they can receive such requests only if God wills it, and only because we share a communion with them in Christ's mystical body which transcends the grave.
@@historiaecclesiastica thanks for answering my comment. I understand your opinion, and it's true that if God would allowed a communication between the church in earth and the church heaven that wouldn't be sinful. Of course I disagree that happened just by knowing we cannot hear the saints, so they don't have a way to communicate to us, so it's even more clear we neither have one way (given by God) to communicate us. And also if it's a so essential doctrine Jesus and the apostles will at least mention it (considering it was a sin in old testament). And I'm really glad to hear that you affirm that saints in heaven are not omniscient and cannot know our thoughts, sadly in Catholics laity (maybe by ignorance) saints are treated close to God, especially Virgin Mary, and there's quite other things that are unthinkable for even orthodoxs as I mentioned before. The thing is that I've never seen any bishop, nor priest or any catholic who correct those people who believe such things. The only one I saw once was a priest in Mexico who was invited to TV and he said that saints don't do miracles for us, but they ask GOD to do miracles for us, and believe me all people in there and all people in streets who they asked says the same "that's not what we've taught, we always believed saints are miraculous and we have to ask directly to them". Furthermore, perhaps if Catholics treated saints as they treat men on earth there would be no problem. When we go and ask a pastor or priest for intercession, we go and ask him, but if we were like some modern sects that have pseudo prophets and apostles and people go and ask for a miracle treating that person as a pseudo divinity, then that intercession, no matter how earthly and to a living person it is requested, IS idolatry. The same with the saints, if there were no sin in invoking the saints there is still the question of idolatry, it would have to be taught that you can not go to a saint as if he were a divinity, but as our brothers. The same with images, in Protestantism there are many churches that use icons like the Angelicans and Lutherans, but we do not use them as an object of worship. Like a picture of a relative if we have it is not a sin, but if we try to communicate with the deceased through it, or worse still we treat him as transcendental and pseudo divine, thinking that he knows everything, that he can do any miracle for us, and worse still we must present him some kind of offer in exchange for him to fulfill our wish, then we fall into idolatry, whether with the living or the dead, besides the invocation there is idolatry. Thank you very much again for your response, and I truly believe that we could reach an agreement in the future, at least when catholic teach the supposedly Catholics who do idolatries saints, and not seems like "no one could adore ever a saints because they're saints", everyone in earth and in heaven could be used as an object of cult and idolatry if the people sins in that way, even with Moses and the apostles.
Not "Alicia". "Elisha" (Eli-sha) The Douay-Rheims Version says this: Sirach 48:12-14 - For we live only in our life, but after death our name shall not be such. 13 Elias was indeed covered with the whirlwind, and his spirit was filled up in Eliseus: in his days he feared not the prince, and no man was more powerful than he. 14 No word could overcome him, and after death his body prophesied. 15 In his life he did great wonders, and is death he wrought miracles. But it doesn't say that Elisha was hearing the prayers of the living.
(382 A.D.) Latin Vulgate: “I am the mother of fair love, way, truth, life, virtue.” (Sirach a.k.a. Ecclesiasticus 24:24-25) (250 A.D.) “Sub Tuum Prayer: Beneath thy compassion, We take refuge, O Theotokos [God-bearer]: do not despise our petitions in time of trouble: but rescue us from dangers, only pure one, only blessed one.” (305 A.D.) Methodius: “Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, we PRAY thee.” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14) (306-373 A.D.) St. Ephram: “Majestic and Heavenly Maid, Lady, Queen.” (Ad Caeli Reginam 10) (382 A.D.) Latin Vulgate: “I am the mother of fair love, way, truth, life, virtue.” (Sirach a.k.a. Ecclesiasticus 24:24-25) One mediator Christ, then says “Prayers, INTERCESSIONS made for all men.” (1 Timothy 2:1-2, 5), People MEDIATE for others: Mary for people in Cana (CCC 2674) (John 2:5), Peter for dead Tabitha (Acts 9:36-42), Paul for dead Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18) Moses for Israelites (Exodus 32:30-35), Abraham for Sodom (Genesis 18:22-32), Moses & Samuel in Heaven for Jeremiah on Earth (Jeremiah 15:1), Saul in Heaven for Samuel on Earth (1 Samuel 28:15-26), Priest prays to Jeremiah in Heaven & Jeremiah Apparition (2 Maccabees 15:12-16), Angels & Saints in Heaven MEDIATE (intercede) prayers for saints on Earth! (CCC 946-975) (Revelation 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:4) St. Paul: “Pray for all Saints.” (Ephesians 6:18) “Pray for us.” (2 Thessalonians 3:1) “Pray one for another.” (James 5:16) Includes Mary, a Saint? YES!
16 The first came before him, saying, 'Lord, your pound has made ten pounds more.' 17 And he said to him, 'Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.' Luke 19:16-17 This here is training for when we are there, lol
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Do you think Mother Mary and the Saints, Martyrs, and Apostles stop praying for us just because they pass away on Earth? Or do you believe John 3 16 when it says they shall have everlasting life?
@@CarlomagnoCael pfff why is that necessary. It's necessary because this whole video is claiming to have proof to pray to other than the God who "Jesus" prayed to. But you are all liars. And polytheists. And you have zero proof except your own desires for praying the way you do.
Intercession described in the scripture is defined as prayer directed towards others. Not asking others to pray for us. This is a logical misrepresentation. To ask another to pray for you is not intercession. The act of praying on another behalf is.
At that time those early reformers were trying to correct all error. They used Scripture as authority. Now there was the Ancient churches outside of Rome, Ethiopian, Egyptian, Indian and many under Muslim control in the mid east. They all pray to the Saints and Venerate The Mother of Jesus Christ. Its very interesting. Im sure if some of the Orthodox pray to her but they do ask for her to pray for them. So in all the Apostlic church she has a great place of honor.
I wonder if this whole argument is because of the word "pray" and a decent dictionary would address part of it. To protestants, pray means something SPECIFIC--worship through directly spoken words to the object of worship (The Lord). But if we take Catholics at their word, pray--TO THEM--seems to have 2 different meanings depending on context: a) direct worship through words and b)to communicate spiritually and could literally be "Oh and pick up a quart of milk" if the church militant could hear each other spiritually. Now, I think the protestants are partly right. The MAIN COMMON definition of prayer is only to and for the Lord because it signifies worship. But the secondary definition isn't unheard of. How often do we say "pray tell..." we aren't praying to the person, we are asking them to do something. What if this whole schism is simply because we needed to consult our dictionaries and define our terms? [We can address whether talking to saints (I didn't say praying) is useful or not. But part of the backlash is the specific word "pray", and that should be addressed/defined first]
@atropinecaffeine traditionally Catholics distinguish between Latria (worship expressed through sacrifice exclusively to God) hyperdulia (highest honor, paid to Mary alone) dulia (the honor paid to the saints and to a lesser degree to clerics, government officials, and even those on earth who express greatness, such as great artists, athletes, etc). Protestants pay honor to professional athletes and even great preachers since it's completely natural to do so, but are reluctant to honor the saints in glory (though they may honor their sect's leaders such as Calvin, Luther, or Zwingli.) Regardless, as you mentioned, the English word pray does not have these distinctions, and its etymology implies making a request. Most prayer to saints is a simple, respectful gesture of dulia coupled with a simple request for intercession, but making an act of latria to a saint is never licit. This video aims to show that making a non-latria prayer to a saint is possible due to the communion of saints in the Body of Christ and also is as commendable as honoring our spiritual leaders before their deaths and asking for their intercession while they are still living.
@@historiaecclesiastica Exactly, thank you. I had heard those terms before but had forgotten them. Specificity in terminology is vital before anyone decides to make someone an enemy because of said terminology (the accusations of evangelical protestants re: Catholics).
No protestant has a problem with the following: A) Living saint -> God Departed saint -> God B) The problem is with: Living saint -> departed saint -> God Literally zero of the biblical passages presented show the Romanist idea of praying to departed saints in heaven. Show me just one passage of Paul praying to Abraham to ask him to pray in heaven. Give me just one of Peter saying "pray to Moses for intercession." This is just the Romanists trying to baptize pagan ancestor worship.
Saint John Chrysostoms prays to Saint John the baptist prior to the first ecuminical council around 250AD if i recall unless you think the Church was corrupted by then which means Jesus' promise was a lie
@@KyrieEleiso_n nowhere did christ promise an error free church. Peter had to be corrected by Paul over circumcision before the Canon was even finished. If Jesus wanted us to pray to saints, he would have taught us how to pray to saints.
@@joncollins7129 Christ promised a Church that will never fall to the gates of hades if praying to saints, Icons etc are satanic then the entire Church was corrupted which isnt possible Saint Peter was corrected yes however he isnt the entire Church only one one of the patriarchs if all patriarchs accepted Icons, Prayers to saints and further explained in the ecuminical councils where is your "church" in all that apart from gnostics, orientals and coptics
@AveChristusRex33AD most of the corruption happened in the middle ages. It was never fully corrupted. Luther wanted to merely reform it, removing some of the bad stuff.
Just a comment, the Old Testament verses aren't applicable to this subject for Protestants because Christ becoming our mediator is in the new testament. Did you forget Hebrews 1:1-3? In times past God spoke unto man through the prophets. But, in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son. There is but One mediator in this new covenant.
Angels presenting prayers en masse to God isn't proof that the angel himself has heard each and every prayer. Also, I've found that trying to use the Book of Revelation to support ones theology is pretty shaky ground. You'd better have another witness. Revelation is such a figurative book that it's tough to nail down a firm doctrine. I use it as filler for already established doctrines and not as the sole source for establishment. (By the mouth of two or three witnesses, let all things be established. Leaning on the Book of Revelation alone is kind of asking for trouble.)
You didn't prove your point. It doesn't matter what the "early church" believed or practiced. The early church produced Gnosticism and other heresies. What we want to know is that did the apostles and prophets of the first century teach? Do we have an example of an apostle praying to a dead person? No. There were plenty of them. Why didn't Paul pray to the dead Stephen? Why didn't John pray to his dead brother, James? We don't have any such examples. We know that people prayed to dead ancestors all over the ancient world. Read the Book of Wisdom (starting in chapter 13). Notice what the author says about making statues to dead people and asking them for safe travel, etc. It's exactly what people have done forever. Does that make it right? No. The Angels and Elders in heaven (according to Revelation) deliver the mail to God. Okay. I was a network administrator, who was responsible for the delivery of LOTS of mail to lots of people. Did I know what was in each message? Heck no. And if I did open and read any of these messages, it would have been considered unethical. That same thing can be said about the mail delivery in heaven. Just because you're carrying the mail doesn't mean you know what's in each envelope.
Thank you for your interest in this channel as you've left a good deal of comments over the past 24 hours. This video addresses the logical consistency of asking the intercession of saints in heaven by outlining a number of principles. It is necessary to address this issue using principles rather than relying entirely on source texts because neither the apostles, nor the early Church fathers, directly addressed the topic of asking saints in heaven for their intercession. The apparent silence in the literary record is not an indication that it was not a practice. Christian practices which were not challenged or opposed would not have warranted the resources necessary to receive systematic explanation in a written document during this time period in which writing, copying, and promulgating documents was difficult and expensive. To summarize, these are the principles outlined in this video: 1. God clearly loves to answer prayers through the intercession of intermediaries, even while it is clearly possible that he could answer prayers directly instead. 2. God answers prayers through the intercession of those dwelling in heaven, not only those dwelling on earth. 3. Since we have communion with the saints in heaven through the one body of Christ and the one Holy Spirit, we have the ability to "commun"icate with the saints in heaven to ask their intercession. Once again, we have established that Scripture encourages asking for the intercession of others, rather than forbids it. Therefore, if it is spiritually licit and possible to ask the saints in heaven for their intercession, it is entirely reasonable and in fact encouraged that we do so. The tradition of all Christian churches older than the 16th century teach that it is possible to communicate with those who are united to Christ even in heaven by virtue of the unity we share with these souls in Christ. While not addressed directly in any 1st-2nd Church document I could find, the devotion to the burial places of the martyrs and the turning of these burial places into shrines is an indication that early Christians frequented these places to ask the intercession of the greatest witnesses of the early Church. The practice of necromancy practiced by Saul is not analogous to asking for the intercession of a saint. Saul attempted to speak to Samuel through the use of a witch, utilizing demonic power which God did not licitly sanction. The Christian who asks for the intercession of a saint believes that the only line of communication which allows him to "commune" with a saint in Heaven is the body of Christ which they share spiritual membership within. This communication, then, is not necromancy - it is, rather, a channel of communion opened up by the baptism which unites the Christian on earth and the saints in heaven.
@@historiaecclesiastica - We are warned against "going beyond that which is written". It's called "transgression", in the scriptures. In other words, if it's not covered in the apostles' teaching then it's out-of-scope. We have this doctrine in contract law. To read into any contract, which has been ratified, is forbidden in a court of law. The Covenants of God are no exception. 2 John 9 - Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God... Furthermore, your observation about Saul and the Witch of Endor sounds like you're shooting from the hip. If communication with the dead was as you teach then a simple prayer to Samuel should have sufficed. Instead, Saul violated the Law by having Samuel conjured up. Since we have no such teaching or examples from New Testament scripture, we need to reverence the silence and not transgress it. The silence of the scriptures is authoritative - as it is in every legal contract. The New Covenant is the Contract under which we now live. Catholicism needs this particular door wedged open because it allows a flood of other false doctrine into the kingdom. Prayers to the dead gives opening to the worship of Mary. The agenda of the Roman religion is on full display. Isis and Asherah must be worshiped in this religion. Patron gods are replaced by patron saints. It's the religion of the Empire with a new suit of clothes - a Christian sounding veneer. Don't look too closely, though, because you'll see that it's only make believe. Christian doctrine respects the word of God.
@@GizmoFromPizmo The apostles and the Holy Spirit never intended to compose a comprehensive theology text. The epistles of the New Testament responded to particular issues as they arose. The rest of the deposit of their teachings are contained in sacred oral tradition, which is passed on from the apostles to the next generations of Christians, but not written down by the apostles. You are proposing a limited concept of Solo Scriptura which forbids believing anything that is not explicitly in Scripture. Scripture itself does not explicitly support this view. Your reference of not going beyond what was written is from 2 Cor 4:6, but in this context, St. Paul was urging the Corinthians not to become puffed up with pride by breaking into factions based on what apostle's "school of thought" one identified with the most. He said "Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other." He was not forbidding Christians from believing any teachings which were not explicitly written in Scripture. In fact, St. Paul commands Christians to assent to doctrines which are taught only orally by the Apostolic tradition although perhaps not in Scripture: 2 Thess 2:15: So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter. Believing that Scripture is the only means by which God transmitted Divine teaching is a medieval innovation which no ancient Church believed/believes.
@@historiaecclesiastica - Tradition that conflicts with scripture is prohibited by the King: Mt. 15:3 - But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? There is nothing wrong with tradition as long as it respects the word of God. For example: if the eldership of one congregations wants to call a fast or observe a special time then that is a tradition that is observed by that congregation. Notice that no tradition of one eldership may be imposed on another. This eliminates the kind of of chaos we see in the second century (and later) church. By then, the clergy had seized control and now one congregation is exercising authority over another. We see this on display in the epistle of First Clement. He was engaging in ecclesiastical overreach. The elders of a congregation have authority over ONLY their congregation. There is no authority for an eldership exercising authority over multiple congregations. Think about that for a moment. Where would the Empire's religion be without ecclesiastical overreach? The clergy would crumble to dust. Their power over the laity would be short circuited and only the authority of the word of God would be permitted to rule. To me, that sounds wonderful. The elderships of local congregations had to be overthrown in order for Rome to take over (Actually the overthrow had taken place well before Rome took over. The clergy seized power over the laity which is HOW Rome was able to seize control so easily. One church bossing around another was the order of the day back then. There is no authority for that behavior in the New Testament.) The silence of the scriptures is our guardrail against error and apostasy. The silence is authoritative in every contract. I was a Union leader in a former lifetime. I understood what the Contract with the Company said and what it didn't say. If we took a "grievance" to arbitration, the arbitrator would rule on the worthiness of the grievance based on the Contract specified and not on what it didn't say. That's how contract law works. If the silence of a contract was a free-for-all then you wind up with theologies like we see in the Book of Enoch, where all manner of theology is spun out of the silence of the Law. Without respecting the silence of the contract, we open the door wide to chaos. And, if you think about it, that's exactly what Rome wants, isn't it? I mean, if you can knock out the underpinnings of the Contract then anything goes. Any theology is acceptable as long as the people in power give it the nod, right? The agenda of the clergy is SO transparent when you look at it that way. The only solution is to slam the door shut against the tyranny of the clergy and adhere only to "thus saith the Lord". Tradition is fine, as long as it doesn't violate the scriptures. That's what the King said. And the Apostle Paul's mentioning of his tradition only reinforces the King's proclamation. The apostle's teaching is scripture. (See 2 Pet. 3:16)
@@historiaecclesiastica - And before I eave the subject, your scripture reference was off by one. It's First Corinthians 4:6 (not Second). Typos notwithstanding, the lesson of the apostle is clear. 1 Cor. 4:6 - And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. Can't you see that when you prefer a competing theology over "thus saith the Lord" that you're doing exactly what the apostle warned us NOT to do. That which is written is for our edification. Those who are preaching another gospel are doing the exact opposite. But speaking of Second Corinthians 4, check this out: 2 Cor. 4:2 - But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. Catholicism has authorized reading into the scriptures whatever doctrine is convenient. I mean, there is nothing about the context of Matthew 16:18 that justifies or authorizes "Apostolic Succession" but guess what is trotted out EVERY TIME that doctrine is challenged? That is a preference of a man (or some men) over the word of God. That is going beyond what is written. Notice that the above mathematics is what is being used to filter out man made error. It is a discipline on our doctrine. It is a guardrail to prevent the shipwreck of our faith.
Point of order: The Apostle Paul was not a bishop. Read the qualifications of a bishop in both First Timothy and then the Book of Titus. A bishop must be the husband of one wife. Paul was not married and, therefore, didn't qualify as a bishop. The bible never calls Paul a bishop. Bishops were the overseers of individual congregations (churches). Paul was all over the place. Paul is an apostle but never a bishop. He was never in one place long enough to do that job. After his arrest, he was much more stable but he still wasn't overseeing a congregation - not from prison. A bishop in the Christian church is a married man with believing children. It's in black and white in the scriptures. Not much you can do about that.
(30-33 A.D.) Jesus Did NOT tell his Disciples to WRITE a NEW TESTAMENT, he gives them the CHURCH, the AUTHORITY & the HOLY GHOST (Mt. 18:17, 28:19) (Jn. 20:22-23) & says Jesus gives ONLY Peter the KEYS 2 Heaven, which suggests Peter is in CHARGE (Mt. 16:19) (Acts 1:15) YOU MUST BE UNITED WITH HIS BODY (the CHURCH) NOT a BOOK! “All salvation comes from Christ the HEAD through the CHURCH his BODY.” (CCC 846-848) (Colossians 1:18) The head is united with the body, must abide in his body (the Church) or be “Cast into the fire.” (John 15:6) (1522 A.D.) Martin Luther: “Christ wrote NOT His teaching and gave no command to write it.” Weimarer Ausgabe (WA) (W.A., 10, pp. 625-28) Not everything Jesus did is in Bible! (John 21:25) (2 Thessalonians 2:15) ORAL tradition, “Teach” what he heard from Paul (2 Timothy 2:2, 3:14-17)
(189 A.D.) St. Irenaeus: “Apostles [Peter and Paul] founded the church [of Rome]… succession… Linus the office of the episcopate (office of a Bishop)... Clement the bishopric.” (Against Heresies, Book III, Chapter 3:2-4) (Acts 1:20) 3.) Apostles pass authority by laying on hands to the Bishops (CCC 552, 857-863, 1536-1588) (Acts 1:21-26, 6:3-6, 9:6, 8:14-19, 13:2-3, 14:23, 15:6, 23) (Mathew 10:1-8, 16:18, 28:19-20) (John 21:17) (1 Peter 5:2) (Ephesians 4:11) (1 Timothy 3:1, 3:8-9, 4:14-16, 5:17-19, 22) (107 A.D.) St. Ignatius: “Let no man do anything connected with the church without the Bishop.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8:1) Bishop English word from Greek Episkopoi, Priest English word from Latin Presbyter, Bishop a.k.a. Páppas (Koine Greek) Pope (English)! (Philippians 1:1) (1 Timothy 4:14) (Apostolic succession - Wikipedia) (Pope - Wikipedia) "Where in the New Testament are "Priests" Mentioned?" (Catholic Answers)
Your references to Melchizedek is not an argument for praying to people who had died. This is off-topic. Your words are obscuring the topic. Melchizedek was a priest of God. A priest's function in every religion is to be the interface of God and man. If you wanted to approach God in worship (i.e. do service to God), you went through a priest. Every male head of his house was a priest for his family. This was the pattern prior to the institution of the Levitical priesthood, at which point those became the avenue. When Jesus proclaimed Himself to be the only way to the Father, He ruffled more than a few feathers. We're not talking about doing "service to God", we're talking about praying. There's no need to obscure the teaching with references to Melchizedek or Abraham's blessing to his sons. That's not what we're talking about.
You did really well until you misrepresented the OO christology. There is no such belief as mixing or mingling the natures. The belief of the OO hypostatic union is that it is one compound nature after the union. The compound nature fully encompasses the properties of the divine nature and the human nature without mingling confusion or alteration. Here is an expression from the Coptic liturgy: this is the life-giving Flesh that Your only-begotten Son, our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ, took from our Lady, the Lady of us all, the holy Theotokos, Saint Mary. He made It One with His divinity without mingling, without confusion, and without alteration.
Thank you for your thoughts. What would you say are the distinctions between Chalcedonian Christology and the beliefs you articulated? What would be your perspective of Chalcedonian Christology? I have heard oriental orthodox theologians use the terminology of 'blended' natures before, which is why I used this term. I'm interested to read more on the terminology you used.
Your old Testament examples have nothing to do with praying to the spirits of deceased humans. And this before the life, death and Resurrection of Christ, and before the Lord sent his Spirit to dwell in the hearts of his believers. As a Catholic, after reading the Bible when I was around 19. I decided I should not be praying to anyone except God.
@@SoldadoCatolico You think can presume what's in my mind by telling me what i think, based on me stating a fact? Who do you think you're as good as by judging me? hmm? There is only one judge. No I don't think I'm closer to God than the Saints or anyone for that matter. You find in scripture where there is that example and show me.
St. Ignatius an apostle of St. John: (107 A.D.) “Where there is Jesus Christ there is the CATHOLIC church.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8:2) (110 A.D.) “Repent and return into the unity of the church, follows a SCHISM he shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.” (Avoid Schismatics 3:2, 3:3, 4:1, 4) (412 A.D.) St. Augustine: “Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church the wrath of God rests upon him.” (Letters 141:5)
(253 A.D.) Bishop Cyprian: “Throne of Peter, the chief church, the Romans.” (Epistle 54:14) “One Church, one chair… another altar cannot be set up, nor a new priesthood… whoever gathers elsewhere scatters.” (Letters 43[40]:5) “He that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.” (Mathew 12:30) “Serpent (Satan) invented heresies and schisms he might corrupt the truth.” (De Catholicae Ecclesiae Unitate 1, 3-4) (e.g., orthodox, protestants etc.,)
All I'm hearing is a reading into of scripture based on personal interpretation. The dead knows nothing and the dead in Christ were not excluded from that scripture
When Saul conjured up Samuel in 1 Samuel 28, Samuel didn't know why he was summoned. Does that sound like a dead someone who could hear the prayers of the living? I mean, if the dead can hear specific prayers then surely righteous Samuel had heard Saul's prayers. No. The Witch of Endor had to conjure him up before he could hear what Saul wanted from him. Read it. Think about your doctrine and read the passage. Did the dead Samuel know what Saul was praying for? Furthermore, if Samuel could indeed hear the prayer of Saul then why conjure him up from the dead. Think about the implications. Saul wouldn't have needed the Witch of Endor, if he was comfortable with praying to dead people. Engage your mind as you read the word of God.
One mediator Christ, then says “Prayers, INTERCESSIONS made for all men.” (1 Timothy 2:1-2, 5), People MEDIATE for others: Mary for people in Cana (CCC 2674) (John 2:5), Peter for dead Tabitha (Acts 9:36-42), Paul for dead Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18) Moses for Israelites (Exodus 32:30-35), Abraham for Sodom (Genesis 18:22-32), Moses & Samuel in Heaven for Jeremiah on Earth (Jeremiah 15:1), Saul in Heaven for Samuel on Earth (1 Samuel 28:15-26), Priest prays to Jeremiah in Heaven & Jeremiah Apparition (2 Maccabees 15:12-16),
Its because he was abandoned by God. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.” "Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy?" He had to go through different rites to speak to Samuel, necromancy (black magic)
St. Paul: “Pray for all Saints.” (Ephesians 6:18) He did NOT say pray to only living Saints! You did! EXAMPLES OF PRAYING TO DEAD SAINTS! All saints in Heaven can hear us, God is the God of the living! Peter for dead Tabitha (Acts 9:36-42), Paul for dead Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18) Moses & Samuel in Heaven for Jeremiah on Earth (Jeremiah 15:1), Saul in Heaven for Samuel on Earth (1 Samuel 28:15-26), Priest prays to Jeremiah in Heaven & Jeremiah Apparition (2 Maccabees 15:12-16), Angels & Saints in Heaven MEDIATE (intercede) prayers for saints on Earth! (CCC 946-975) (Revelation 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:4) “Prayers, INTERCESSIONS made for all men.” then says, One mediator Christ, (1 Timothy 2:1-2, 5), People MEDIATE for others: Mary for people in Cana (CCC 2674) (John 2:5), Moses for Israelites (Exodus 32:30-35), Abraham for Sodom (Genesis 18:22-32), St. Paul: “Pray for all Saints.” (Ephesians 6:18) “Pray for us.” (2 Thessalonians 3:1) “Pray one for another.” (James 5:16) Includes Mary, a Saint? YES!
@MUSIC-MARY Not with to a Dead Saint.Did they pray to Moises, Abraham or OT Saints totally Not.They were told to pray for each other not pray to Peter, Paul, Mary.
None of the characters you mentioned prayed to someone who is dead to intercede for them. Only Roman Catholic pagan traditions pray to images of those who died already thinking that those images would hear them to intercede. That is the deception to the deceiver comes from interpretation of man (tradition) not from God.
There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and [h]fared sumptuously every day. 20But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21desiring to be fed with [i]the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ 27“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead
One mediator Christ, then says “Prayers, INTERCESSIONS made for all men.” (1 Timothy 2:1-2, 5), People MEDIATE for others: Mary for people in Cana (CCC 2674) (John 2:5), Peter for dead Tabitha (Acts 9:36-42), Paul for dead Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18) Moses for Israelites (Exodus 32:30-35), Abraham for Sodom (Genesis 18:22-32), Moses & Samuel in Heaven for Jeremiah on Earth (Jeremiah 15:1), Saul in Heaven for Samuel on Earth (1 Samuel 28:15-26), Priest prays to Jeremiah in Heaven & Jeremiah Apparition (2 Maccabees 15:12-16),
I dissagree with point one because the example provided are of the living on earth only. But you are superimposing the prayers to the dead over the biblical text. Your distorting the text. The our Father is the only prayer you should use as an example. Pray to who for everything? The father. Not jesus. Or mary or gabriel or anyone else. Why didmt jesus ask adam or enoch or moses to go to God and ask Him to remove this cup from him?
Weeehooo Just found myself a debate. Lets do this!!! Ok brother, you are correct that we cannot pray to dead people. If we were supposed to do that it would be "necromancy". Its unbiblical and the Lord Jesus detests such things. *There is one mediator between God and Man, the Lord Jesus Christ* If we pray we ought to pray to Jesus, for he is the one that became a bridge between God and Man. > " Why didmt jesus ask adam or enoch or moses to go to God and ask Him to remove this cup from him?" Yes! Why would he. He asked his Father in heaven. The one who sent him! For he came to do his _Father's will_ Jesus Christ on the other Hand is Son of The Most High God (Father). He is himself God. According to Old and New testament. So when we pray we plead the Son so that we be forgiven and he reconciles us back to his Father. The Holy Spritit (Ruach Ha'Kodesh) is the Spirit of God that works on the ones that have put their faith in Christ. He is the one that corrects us from our mistakes and convicts us of our sins. God is 3 in One (Triune God) He was like this from the beginning. It isn't made up starting from the New Testament. It was just more brought to attention. God Bless your discernment and I pray you find the truth. i.e The Lord Yeshua The Almighty
@@perelium-x even more so why I'm the world would I pray to Jesus when I can pray to his God. As well the imaginary equality of the trinity is made up indeed. Jesus and the spirit, are both commanded and obey and serve the most High. Neither of them are equal to each other nor are they equal to the Father God. So why would I pray to someone who will, according to the bible, be subjected to the day of judgment? Jesus, the son, according to the new testament will be subjected to the day of judgment. Why would I pray to Jesus.
Wallahi by God. I swear to God Almighty. That prayer to anyone except the God Jesus prayed to, will lead you to hell. There is absolutely zero biblical evidence..and that is fact. Also you example is intersession in the old testament, is pertaining to the LIVING. not gone from the earth. There is zero old testament examples The old testament examples you gave are example of miracles of the prophets. Its not the Catholics version of intersession. The prayers of the LIVING WHILE ON EARTH, prophets. Like moses, job, jesus, muhammad.ect. they all prayed for their people and good came from that prayer..but there is no example that we see in scriptures where moses asks adam, or abaraham to intercede for their people.
The purpose of the first section is to establish that God wills us to intercede for one another in prayer and does not demand that we turn only to him directly. The second section establishes that there is no logical reason that God doesn't will for souls in Heaven, united to us on earth by Christ, to continue the ministry of intercessory prayer. The final section demonstrates beyond doubt that the Church fathers believed in placing petitions at the feet of the saints in Heaven.
Salve Maria! Muslim, how is your good works pleasing before God without the shed Blood of Christ? What made you think that your sacrifice is better than Cane's?
My repentance is accepted by the same as the son who ran away and came back, and was accepted by his father with a loving embrace. You may think we don't have a direct line to God. But that's incorrect. We worship God and pray and do as best we can. And in our faults we repent and ask forgiveness. And it is given to us. And anyone who asks with a true spirit.
@@historiaecclesiastica but you gave zero example of God teaching us to pray to the ones who have passed on. The only example you gave were that of intermediaries on earth. And even us Muslims we have the same understanding as the biblical one. The righteous ON earth can pray for you upon your requests. But you aren't allowed to superimpose that specific understanding upon those that are all waiting for the day of judgment.. If you truly want the intercession of Mary and the saints. Then the correct way to get it would be pray to God for him to bless them. And in turn in God will he will bless them by way of your prayers. And it will produce their intersession. But their is no proof they are in heaven now speaking to the Father
Lev 19:31 prohibits mediums and going to spiritists. Which in turn prohibits is from doing the same actions as them. Seeking out help through spirits. And Matthew 6:6 tells us how to pray and who to pray to. If you are forgetting that God destroyed people and his own people for worshipping other than Him. He names Himself a jealous God. So how do you think God takes it when you call on Mary ? Or Thomas or Andrew? Is it righteous to call on men or women for help, when they are faulty just as you an I are? No. It is not righteous. You disobey and disrespect Christ every time you call you anyone but who he said to pray to. And it will indeed lead you to the hell fire..
@@tftwstf5 lev 19:31 prohibits us from going to demonically possessed mediums and spiritists to speak to those that have passed from this life to the next, period. It doesn’t however keep us from speaking to those alive in Christ through Christ. As for Jesus’s teaching on prayer in Matt. 12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. John 16:12-13 He’s pretty clear He didn’t give us everything Himself.
@@frekigeri4317 the spirit of truth would never give something contradictory to the pillars of the teachings of God. I understand that the meaning is going to people who call on spirits. And the dead. And you guys all go and learn from your church father's to call on others besides God for help. You are mimicking their practices in the name of Jesus. There is no instructions in the bible or from Paul. Or ANYONE. INSTRUCTING us to call on holy o es who have passed. You know that's the truth. Every one who reads the bible knows this. But you guys superimpose verses of holy ones intersession while their are alone on earth. We even have that in the Quran. But we know by way on the consistency of the prophet and all of the messengers, that they instructed us to call on only God.
@@tftwstf5 the spirit of Truth hasn’t given anything contradictory to scripture. In Hebrew there’s two words translated into English as create. One is to create something from something and the other is to create something from nothing, God does both but something from nothing is only Gods ability. A demon only has powers that it has corrupted, powers it has received from God, which is the source of all these powers. Your claim is that prayer to Saints is superficially unique but fundamentally the same to using a demonically possessed person to communicate with dead but I would say they are superficially the same and fundamentally different as the source of the power comes through Christ directly and the demonically possessed person draws their power through a fallen angel and thus indirectly from God. One way is forbidden the other is not.
"Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind." Eccl 12:13-14 God did not command us to pray, ask or talk to dead saints or alive saints. PERIOD
I'm a Protestant Christian and I have been wanting to dive into some research into this topic. This has been very informative and helpful. Thanks!
(305 A.D.) Methodius:
“Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, we PRAY thee.”
(Oration on Simeon and Anna 14)
(306-373 A.D.) St. Ephram: “Majestic and Heavenly Maid, Lady, Queen.” (Ad Caeli Reginam 10) (382 A.D.) Latin Vulgate: “I am the mother of fair love, way, truth, life, virtue.” (Sirach a.k.a. Ecclesiasticus 24:24-25)
One mediator Christ, then says “Prayers, INTERCESSIONS made for all men.” (1 Timothy 2:1-2, 5), People MEDIATE for others: Mary for people in Cana (CCC 2674) (John 2:5), Peter for dead Tabitha (Acts 9:36-42), Paul for dead Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18)
Moses for Israelites (Exodus 32:30-35), Abraham for Sodom (Genesis 18:22-32), Moses & Samuel in Heaven for Jeremiah on Earth (Jeremiah 15:1),
Saul in Heaven for Samuel on Earth (1 Samuel 28:15-26), Priest prays to Jeremiah in Heaven & Jeremiah Apparition (2 Maccabees 15:12-16),
Angels & Saints in Heaven MEDIATE (intercede) prayers for saints on Earth! (CCC 946-975) (Revelation 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:4)
There is no " pray to dead Saints " in the Bible only " Pray for each other ". Not to the dead ones.
@@noj72lao-fr1oh Saints are not dead if you believe salvation is possible and Christ won over death.
@@jazzpote4316 Blasphemy if there is a living Saint even a human Pope of the Vatican can not be HOLY as Lord Jesus Christ.
Come to the Roman Catholic Church! You'll be filled with such grace you can't imagine!!! ❤
(250 A.D.) “Sub Tuum Prayer: Beneath thy compassion,
We take refuge, O Theotokos [God-bearer]:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure one, only blessed one.”
(305 A.D.) Methodius: “Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, we PRAY thee.” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14)
(306-373 A.D.) St. Ephram: “Majestic and Heavenly Maid, Lady, Queen.” (Ad Caeli Reginam 10)
(382 A.D.) Latin Vulgate: “I am the mother of fair love, way, truth, life, virtue.” (Sirach a.k.a. Ecclesiasticus 24:24-25)
One mediator Christ, then says “Prayers, INTERCESSIONS made for all men.” (1 Timothy 2:1-2, 5),
People MEDIATE for others: Mary for people in Cana (CCC 2674) (John 2:5), Peter for dead Tabitha (Acts 9:36-42), Paul for dead Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18) Moses for Israelites (Exodus 32:30-35), Abraham for Sodom (Genesis 18:22-32), Moses & Samuel in Heaven for Jeremiah on Earth (Jeremiah 15:1), Saul in Heaven for Samuel on Earth (1 Samuel 28:15-26), Priest prays to Jeremiah in Heaven & Jeremiah Apparition (2 Maccabees 15:12-16),
Angels & Saints in Heaven MEDIATE (intercede) prayers for saints on Earth! (CCC 946-975) (Revelation 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:4)
St. Paul: “Pray for all Saints.” (Ephesians 6:18) “Pray for us.” (2 Thessalonians 3:1) “Pray one for another.” (James 5:16) Includes Mary, a Saint? YES!
Saul and Samuel were alive. What are you talking about?
@@eugene3484
Moses & Samuel in Heaven for Hebrews on Earth (Jeremiah 15:1),
Moses lived long before Jeerimaih's time, and Samuel about 400 years before Jeremiah, yet they interceded for them from Heaven!
No they were already in Heaven.
The Saints in heaven are alive, God is the God of the Living!
Praise the Lord. I'm currently in RCIA.
Thank you for your videos. They have helped me so much.
The catacombs of Rome were constructed over a period of several centuries beginning in the second century AD and ending around the fifth century AD. In the catacombs, there are many inscriptions left by the early Christians. Here are a few examples:
"Peter and Marcellinus, may you live in God." (Catacomb of Priscilla): This is one of the earliest known Christian inscriptions and reflects a prayer for the deceased individuals, Peter and Marcellinus, to live in God's presence.
"Peter, pray for Victor." (Catacomb of Callixtus): This is a simple invocation asking the apostle Peter to pray for the deceased individual named Victor. It illustrates the early Christian practice of seeking the intercession of saints.
"Lawrence, remember your sister Fabiana." (Catacomb of Domitilla): This is a request for the martyr Lawrence to remember and pray for his sister, Fabiana. It demonstrates the belief in the ongoing spiritual connection between departed believers and the living community of faith.
"Remember me, Ursus, in your prayers, as you also wish to be remembered." (Catacomb of St. Sebastian): This is a reciprocal request for prayers between the deceased individual named Ursus and others who visit his tomb. It reflects the communal aspect of prayer and intercession in early Christianity.
These inscriptions, among others found in the catacombs, provide insights into the early Christian belief in the communion of saints and the practice of requesting the prayers of departed believers, including martyrs and saints. They offer tangible evidence of the spiritual devotion and piety of early Christians and their belief in the ongoing intercessory role of the faithful departed.
AMEN!!!
Yet the early Church fathers wrote extensively against false teachings going on. List an early pre 5th century Church father that gave reasons for it . List a Bishop
This is a very late response, I requested this this topic in the comments of another video, and I would thank you greatly for making this video, and I apologize for not thanking you earlier
I wonder how protestants cope with the fact that since the founding of the apostolic church and up until the 15th century there wasn't a single church that didn't venerate saints? They believe the church was decieved and corrupted since the beginning and that God needed 15th century to reveal that veneration of saints was a mistake?
With this: 1 Timothy 5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"
@@theodosios2615yes there is one mediator, but everyone in the body of Christ is an intercessor. We don’t cease to be intercessors or apart of the body of Christ once we die.
@@theodosios2615
This video gives multiple verses from both the Old & New Testaments to support veneration of Saints.
You use one verse and completely ignore multiple verses that challenge your beliefs.
The Catholic Faith is rooted in ancient Christianity. It requires a lot more than a cherry picked verse to understand it.
@@gabepeterson4420 Honoring Saints is one thing. But when you're praying to them, you're worshipping. There isn't a single instance in the scriptures where prayer isn't an act of worship.
@@theodosios2615
In Old English we did not have so much of a difficulty here. One could say to another, “Pray tell…” or, “I pray thee my lord…” In fact, the King James Bible gives us many examples of the term “prayer” being used analogous to the way Catholics use it when we “pray” to saints. With a touch of Old English, when Bathsheba makes a request of King Solomon in I Kings 2:20, the KJV has her say: “I pray thee, say me not nay.” There was never a question here of whether the King James Bible was presenting Bathsheba as adoring her son as God, or praying to him in a way that is forbidden. It was not. Nor are Catholics when we pray to saints. We certainly honor them when we pray to them. In other words, we do not talk to them like we talk to the boys at the local bar and grill. We show great respect and reverence for them. But we do not adore them as we adore God alone. And we also petition them for their prayers because Scripture makes very clear that we need each other as members of the body of Christ (see I Cor. 12:12-27
Early Christians of the 1st Cent. A.D. commanded and required to "LOVE (not sexually) & PRAY" for/to one another as Christ had taught the Apostles... and not to pray, ask petition (request/favor), supplication, devotion, and veneration to/for the Dead Apostles, Prophets, and Saints... Praise be to God in Christ Jesus... Amen.
❤❤ Please family of God , lets not argue. God is able to give each one of us the correct answer and when we have it we can pray for others in the family. Love to all. ❤❤❤
Glad to see you back on the scene!
May Almighty God bless you brother
As a devout Protestant I first thank the enormous effort of the video, it is not easy to collect and study so much information, but also clarify several points, since the Protestant position is misrepresented as a straw man.
1. We are NOT against intercession prayers, intercession is one of our duties, a mandate, and a good thing.
2. The saints in heaven intercede and pray for us, there is no problem with that, some few will argue that the saints do not know what is going on here but clearly in scripture we are shown that they do have knowledge of the earth, and even the blood of the martyrs cries out, and the earth itself cries out (so the angels clearly do too). With that there is no problem.
3. Patrons were as their word indicates patterns to follow, now Catholics use it as the "chief intercessor of an area" but the original word means the patron, not "the intercessor of". So I don't agree that it can be used to support your point.
4. What we are not really in favor of is the invocation of the saints, that the church on earth can and should invoke them to contact them beyond death, a practice forbidden to the Jews and at no time did Jesus or the apostles teach that it could be allowed in the new covenant. Just as it was a sin for Saul to contact the prophets, so it must be for the church.
5. The fact that we cannot invoke them does not mean that they do not pray for us.
6. We are not against respecting, honoring and remembering the saints, but we consider that invocation is a sin and idolatry, therefore you would be being disrespectful to them by making them an object of worship.
7. As seen in the parents you comment, most speak as I said above that THEY pray for us, and in that we agree, the thing is that none is explicit in approving the invasion and very little of the video could be interpreted that way.
8. When in the writings of the fathers it is said "may Peter pray for us" or "may Mary be praying before Jesus for us" it is not the same as invoking the saints. It is one thing to show our desire that they do so, and our conviction that they are doing so, and quite another to invite them (and much worse to offer them things in exchange for their intercessions).
If we were to say "may the angel Michael fight for us" or "may the angel Gabriel bring us God's answer quickly", it is NOT THE SAME as invoking the angel Michael to ask for his help, or invoking the angel Gabriel to hasten him by offering sacrifices.
I know that maybe for Catholics it is hard to see the difference, but for us it is abysmal. The invocation is what is wrong, which I do not see in any of the passages shown in the video.
Thank you for your detailed response.
I think the answer to the question of whether or not the invocation of the saints to request intercession is permitted or not depends upon whether or not God has opened up a channel of communication with the saints in Heaven through the communion in the body of Christ, which transcends death. Such communication is forbidden in the Old Covenant because God did not establish any such channels of communication with the dead, so attempting to speak to them was disobedient to God's designs and would have either been superstitious or taken recourse to demonic power.
If, in the new covenant, there is a means of relaying a request to a saint in Heaven which was licitly established by God (by virtue of the communion we share in Christ) than there is no moral impediment to relaying requests for intercession since requesting the intercession of others is always approved.
The purpose of the principles at the beginning of this video are to show that if asking for the intercession of a person on earth is not idolatrous, then there is nothing essentially different about asking for the intercession of a soul in heaven. The only difference is whether or not it is a part of God's plan that we relay requests to the souls in Heaven. It would be idolatrous if we relayed such requests based on the assumption that saints in Heaven were omniscient and could hear even our inward thoughts. We do not believe this - we believe that they can receive such requests only if God wills it, and only because we share a communion with them in Christ's mystical body which transcends the grave.
@@historiaecclesiastica thanks for answering my comment. I understand your opinion, and it's true that if God would allowed a communication between the church in earth and the church heaven that wouldn't be sinful. Of course I disagree that happened just by knowing we cannot hear the saints, so they don't have a way to communicate to us, so it's even more clear we neither have one way (given by God) to communicate us. And also if it's a so essential doctrine Jesus and the apostles will at least mention it (considering it was a sin in old testament).
And I'm really glad to hear that you affirm that saints in heaven are not omniscient and cannot know our thoughts, sadly in Catholics laity (maybe by ignorance) saints are treated close to God, especially Virgin Mary, and there's quite other things that are unthinkable for even orthodoxs as I mentioned before. The thing is that I've never seen any bishop, nor priest or any catholic who correct those people who believe such things. The only one I saw once was a priest in Mexico who was invited to TV and he said that saints don't do miracles for us, but they ask GOD to do miracles for us, and believe me all people in there and all people in streets who they asked says the same "that's not what we've taught, we always believed saints are miraculous and we have to ask directly to them".
Furthermore, perhaps if Catholics treated saints as they treat men on earth there would be no problem. When we go and ask a pastor or priest for intercession, we go and ask him, but if we were like some modern sects that have pseudo prophets and apostles and people go and ask for a miracle treating that person as a pseudo divinity, then that intercession, no matter how earthly and to a living person it is requested, IS idolatry. The same with the saints, if there were no sin in invoking the saints there is still the question of idolatry, it would have to be taught that you can not go to a saint as if he were a divinity, but as our brothers.
The same with images, in Protestantism there are many churches that use icons like the Angelicans and Lutherans, but we do not use them as an object of worship. Like a picture of a relative if we have it is not a sin, but if we try to communicate with the deceased through it, or worse still we treat him as transcendental and pseudo divine, thinking that he knows everything, that he can do any miracle for us, and worse still we must present him some kind of offer in exchange for him to fulfill our wish, then we fall into idolatry, whether with the living or the dead, besides the invocation there is idolatry.
Thank you very much again for your response, and I truly believe that we could reach an agreement in the future, at least when catholic teach the supposedly Catholics who do idolatries saints, and not seems like "no one could adore ever a saints because they're saints", everyone in earth and in heaven could be used as an object of cult and idolatry if the people sins in that way, even with Moses and the apostles.
Well done. Enjoyed.
Did the apostels pray to ther marterd friends like after the one that was stones with paul ther?? Were they doing it then?
I think this is best solved by asking " which group has there prayers answered?
Not "Alicia". "Elisha" (Eli-sha) The Douay-Rheims Version says this:
Sirach 48:12-14 - For we live only in our life, but after death our name shall not be such.
13 Elias was indeed covered with the whirlwind, and his spirit was filled up in Eliseus: in his days he feared not the prince, and no man was more powerful than he.
14 No word could overcome him, and after death his body prophesied.
15 In his life he did great wonders, and is death he wrought miracles.
But it doesn't say that Elisha was hearing the prayers of the living.
(382 A.D.) Latin Vulgate: “I am the mother of fair love, way, truth, life, virtue.” (Sirach a.k.a. Ecclesiasticus 24:24-25)
(250 A.D.) “Sub Tuum Prayer: Beneath thy compassion, We take refuge, O Theotokos [God-bearer]: do not despise our petitions in time of trouble: but rescue us from dangers, only pure one, only blessed one.”
(305 A.D.) Methodius: “Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, we PRAY thee.” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14)
(306-373 A.D.) St. Ephram: “Majestic and Heavenly Maid, Lady, Queen.” (Ad Caeli Reginam 10)
(382 A.D.) Latin Vulgate: “I am the mother of fair love, way, truth, life, virtue.” (Sirach a.k.a. Ecclesiasticus 24:24-25)
One mediator Christ, then says “Prayers, INTERCESSIONS made for all men.” (1 Timothy 2:1-2, 5),
People MEDIATE for others: Mary for people in Cana (CCC 2674) (John 2:5), Peter for dead Tabitha (Acts 9:36-42), Paul for dead Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18) Moses for Israelites (Exodus 32:30-35), Abraham for Sodom (Genesis 18:22-32), Moses & Samuel in Heaven for Jeremiah on Earth (Jeremiah 15:1), Saul in Heaven for Samuel on Earth (1 Samuel 28:15-26), Priest prays to Jeremiah in Heaven & Jeremiah Apparition (2 Maccabees 15:12-16),
Angels & Saints in Heaven MEDIATE (intercede) prayers for saints on Earth! (CCC 946-975) (Revelation 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:4) St. Paul: “Pray for all Saints.” (Ephesians 6:18) “Pray for us.” (2 Thessalonians 3:1) “Pray one for another.” (James 5:16) Includes Mary, a Saint? YES!
All biblical examples you provided for intersession are of people who are alive. On earth.
16 The first came before him, saying, 'Lord, your pound has made ten pounds more.'
17 And he said to him, 'Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.'
Luke 19:16-17
This here is training for when we are there, lol
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Do you think Mother Mary and the Saints, Martyrs, and Apostles stop praying for us just because they pass away on Earth? Or do you believe John 3 16 when it says they shall have everlasting life?
@@CarlomagnoCael give me one example of anyone after Jesus making prayers in the bible to John the Baptist.
@@tftwstf5 why is that a necessity? Do you deny that John the Baptist is part of the body of Christ?
@@CarlomagnoCael pfff why is that necessary. It's necessary because this whole video is claiming to have proof to pray to other than the God who "Jesus" prayed to. But you are all liars. And polytheists. And you have zero proof except your own desires for praying the way you do.
Intercession described in the scripture is defined as prayer directed towards others. Not asking others to pray for us. This is a logical misrepresentation. To ask another to pray for you is not intercession. The act of praying on another behalf is.
Seems like a lot of grasping for straws. Did not see that any biblical characters prayed TO dead people. Angels are not human.
At that time those early reformers were trying to correct all error. They used Scripture as authority. Now there was the Ancient churches outside of Rome, Ethiopian, Egyptian, Indian and many under Muslim control in the mid east. They all pray to the Saints and Venerate The Mother of Jesus Christ. Its very interesting. Im sure if some of the Orthodox pray to her but they do ask for her to pray for them. So in all the Apostlic church she has a great place of honor.
Question. Rev 8 is talking about the prayers of the saints? Or the prayers of the saints that you prayed to the them to offer to God?
@tftwstf5
Revelation 8 reveals intercessory prayers on behalf of people who ask for their prayers.
God bless.
Jesus did NOT say that, you did!
I will listen to Jesus!
@@MUSIC-MARY
Remember,
Being "The Body of, Christ", we are always concerned for others, even after death prayers never stop.
I wonder if this whole argument is because of the word "pray" and a decent dictionary would address part of it.
To protestants, pray means something SPECIFIC--worship through directly spoken words to the object of worship (The Lord).
But if we take Catholics at their word, pray--TO THEM--seems to have 2 different meanings depending on context: a) direct worship through words and b)to communicate spiritually and could literally be "Oh and pick up a quart of milk" if the church militant could hear each other spiritually.
Now, I think the protestants are partly right. The MAIN COMMON definition of prayer is only to and for the Lord because it signifies worship.
But the secondary definition isn't unheard of. How often do we say "pray tell..." we aren't praying to the person, we are asking them to do something.
What if this whole schism is simply because we needed to consult our dictionaries and define our terms?
[We can address whether talking to saints (I didn't say praying) is useful or not. But part of the backlash is the specific word "pray", and that should be addressed/defined first]
@atropinecaffeine traditionally Catholics distinguish between Latria (worship expressed through sacrifice exclusively to God) hyperdulia (highest honor, paid to Mary alone) dulia (the honor paid to the saints and to a lesser degree to clerics, government officials, and even those on earth who express greatness, such as great artists, athletes, etc). Protestants pay honor to professional athletes and even great preachers since it's completely natural to do so, but are reluctant to honor the saints in glory (though they may honor their sect's leaders such as Calvin, Luther, or Zwingli.) Regardless, as you mentioned, the English word pray does not have these distinctions, and its etymology implies making a request. Most prayer to saints is a simple, respectful gesture of dulia coupled with a simple request for intercession, but making an act of latria to a saint is never licit. This video aims to show that making a non-latria prayer to a saint is possible due to the communion of saints in the Body of Christ and also is as commendable as honoring our spiritual leaders before their deaths and asking for their intercession while they are still living.
@@historiaecclesiastica Exactly, thank you. I had heard those terms before but had forgotten them. Specificity in terminology is vital before anyone decides to make someone an enemy because of said terminology (the accusations of evangelical protestants re: Catholics).
No protestant has a problem with the following:
A) Living saint -> God
Departed saint -> God
B) The problem is with:
Living saint -> departed saint -> God
Literally zero of the biblical passages presented show the Romanist idea of praying to departed saints in heaven.
Show me just one passage of Paul praying to Abraham to ask him to pray in heaven. Give me just one of Peter saying "pray to Moses for intercession."
This is just the Romanists trying to baptize pagan ancestor worship.
Saint John Chrysostoms prays to Saint John the baptist prior to the first ecuminical council around 250AD if i recall unless you think the Church was corrupted by then which means Jesus' promise was a lie
You also completely ignore John 3:16 through your perspective because you receive everlasting life so they're also living saints
@@KyrieEleiso_n nowhere did christ promise an error free church. Peter had to be corrected by Paul over circumcision before the Canon was even finished.
If Jesus wanted us to pray to saints, he would have taught us how to pray to saints.
@@joncollins7129 Christ promised a Church that will never fall to the gates of hades if praying to saints, Icons etc are satanic then the entire Church was corrupted which isnt possible Saint Peter was corrected yes however he isnt the entire Church only one one of the patriarchs if all patriarchs accepted Icons, Prayers to saints and further explained in the ecuminical councils where is your "church" in all that apart from gnostics, orientals and coptics
@AveChristusRex33AD most of the corruption happened in the middle ages. It was never fully corrupted. Luther wanted to merely reform it, removing some of the bad stuff.
Just a comment, the Old Testament verses aren't applicable to this subject for Protestants because Christ becoming our mediator is in the new testament. Did you forget Hebrews 1:1-3? In times past God spoke unto man through the prophets. But, in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son. There is but One mediator in this new covenant.
Angels presenting prayers en masse to God isn't proof that the angel himself has heard each and every prayer. Also, I've found that trying to use the Book of Revelation to support ones theology is pretty shaky ground. You'd better have another witness. Revelation is such a figurative book that it's tough to nail down a firm doctrine. I use it as filler for already established doctrines and not as the sole source for establishment. (By the mouth of two or three witnesses, let all things be established. Leaning on the Book of Revelation alone is kind of asking for trouble.)
Protestants cherry pick what you think is symbolic or not!
That is NOT authentic but opinionated!
You didn't prove your point. It doesn't matter what the "early church" believed or practiced. The early church produced Gnosticism and other heresies. What we want to know is that did the apostles and prophets of the first century teach?
Do we have an example of an apostle praying to a dead person? No. There were plenty of them. Why didn't Paul pray to the dead Stephen? Why didn't John pray to his dead brother, James? We don't have any such examples.
We know that people prayed to dead ancestors all over the ancient world. Read the Book of Wisdom (starting in chapter 13). Notice what the author says about making statues to dead people and asking them for safe travel, etc. It's exactly what people have done forever. Does that make it right?
No.
The Angels and Elders in heaven (according to Revelation) deliver the mail to God. Okay. I was a network administrator, who was responsible for the delivery of LOTS of mail to lots of people. Did I know what was in each message? Heck no. And if I did open and read any of these messages, it would have been considered unethical. That same thing can be said about the mail delivery in heaven. Just because you're carrying the mail doesn't mean you know what's in each envelope.
Thank you for your interest in this channel as you've left a good deal of comments over the past 24 hours.
This video addresses the logical consistency of asking the intercession of saints in heaven by outlining a number of principles. It is necessary to address this issue using principles rather than relying entirely on source texts because neither the apostles, nor the early Church fathers, directly addressed the topic of asking saints in heaven for their intercession.
The apparent silence in the literary record is not an indication that it was not a practice. Christian practices which were not challenged or opposed would not have warranted the resources necessary to receive systematic explanation in a written document during this time period in which writing, copying, and promulgating documents was difficult and expensive.
To summarize, these are the principles outlined in this video:
1. God clearly loves to answer prayers through the intercession of intermediaries, even while it is clearly possible that he could answer prayers directly instead.
2. God answers prayers through the intercession of those dwelling in heaven, not only those dwelling on earth.
3. Since we have communion with the saints in heaven through the one body of Christ and the one Holy Spirit, we have the ability to "commun"icate with the saints in heaven to ask their intercession. Once again, we have established that Scripture encourages asking for the intercession of others, rather than forbids it. Therefore, if it is spiritually licit and possible to ask the saints in heaven for their intercession, it is entirely reasonable and in fact encouraged that we do so.
The tradition of all Christian churches older than the 16th century teach that it is possible to communicate with those who are united to Christ even in heaven by virtue of the unity we share with these souls in Christ.
While not addressed directly in any 1st-2nd Church document I could find, the devotion to the burial places of the martyrs and the turning of these burial places into shrines is an indication that early Christians frequented these places to ask the intercession of the greatest witnesses of the early Church.
The practice of necromancy practiced by Saul is not analogous to asking for the intercession of a saint. Saul attempted to speak to Samuel through the use of a witch, utilizing demonic power which God did not licitly sanction. The Christian who asks for the intercession of a saint believes that the only line of communication which allows him to "commune" with a saint in Heaven is the body of Christ which they share spiritual membership within. This communication, then, is not necromancy - it is, rather, a channel of communion opened up by the baptism which unites the Christian on earth and the saints in heaven.
@@historiaecclesiastica - We are warned against "going beyond that which is written". It's called "transgression", in the scriptures.
In other words, if it's not covered in the apostles' teaching then it's out-of-scope. We have this doctrine in contract law. To read into any contract, which has been ratified, is forbidden in a court of law. The Covenants of God are no exception.
2 John 9 - Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God...
Furthermore, your observation about Saul and the Witch of Endor sounds like you're shooting from the hip. If communication with the dead was as you teach then a simple prayer to Samuel should have sufficed. Instead, Saul violated the Law by having Samuel conjured up.
Since we have no such teaching or examples from New Testament scripture, we need to reverence the silence and not transgress it. The silence of the scriptures is authoritative - as it is in every legal contract. The New Covenant is the Contract under which we now live.
Catholicism needs this particular door wedged open because it allows a flood of other false doctrine into the kingdom. Prayers to the dead gives opening to the worship of Mary. The agenda of the Roman religion is on full display. Isis and Asherah must be worshiped in this religion. Patron gods are replaced by patron saints. It's the religion of the Empire with a new suit of clothes - a Christian sounding veneer. Don't look too closely, though, because you'll see that it's only make believe. Christian doctrine respects the word of God.
@@GizmoFromPizmo The apostles and the Holy Spirit never intended to compose a comprehensive theology text. The epistles of the New Testament responded to particular issues as they arose. The rest of the deposit of their teachings are contained in sacred oral tradition, which is passed on from the apostles to the next generations of Christians, but not written down by the apostles.
You are proposing a limited concept of Solo Scriptura which forbids believing anything that is not explicitly in Scripture. Scripture itself does not explicitly support this view.
Your reference of not going beyond what was written is from 2 Cor 4:6, but in this context, St. Paul was urging the Corinthians not to become puffed up with pride by breaking into factions based on what apostle's "school of thought" one identified with the most. He said "Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other." He was not forbidding Christians from believing any teachings which were not explicitly written in Scripture. In fact, St. Paul commands Christians to assent to doctrines which are taught only orally by the Apostolic tradition although perhaps not in Scripture: 2 Thess 2:15: So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.
Believing that Scripture is the only means by which God transmitted Divine teaching is a medieval innovation which no ancient Church believed/believes.
@@historiaecclesiastica - Tradition that conflicts with scripture is prohibited by the King:
Mt. 15:3 - But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
There is nothing wrong with tradition as long as it respects the word of God. For example: if the eldership of one congregations wants to call a fast or observe a special time then that is a tradition that is observed by that congregation. Notice that no tradition of one eldership may be imposed on another. This eliminates the kind of of chaos we see in the second century (and later) church. By then, the clergy had seized control and now one congregation is exercising authority over another. We see this on display in the epistle of First Clement. He was engaging in ecclesiastical overreach. The elders of a congregation have authority over ONLY their congregation. There is no authority for an eldership exercising authority over multiple congregations.
Think about that for a moment. Where would the Empire's religion be without ecclesiastical overreach? The clergy would crumble to dust. Their power over the laity would be short circuited and only the authority of the word of God would be permitted to rule. To me, that sounds wonderful.
The elderships of local congregations had to be overthrown in order for Rome to take over (Actually the overthrow had taken place well before Rome took over. The clergy seized power over the laity which is HOW Rome was able to seize control so easily. One church bossing around another was the order of the day back then. There is no authority for that behavior in the New Testament.)
The silence of the scriptures is our guardrail against error and apostasy. The silence is authoritative in every contract. I was a Union leader in a former lifetime. I understood what the Contract with the Company said and what it didn't say. If we took a "grievance" to arbitration, the arbitrator would rule on the worthiness of the grievance based on the Contract specified and not on what it didn't say. That's how contract law works.
If the silence of a contract was a free-for-all then you wind up with theologies like we see in the Book of Enoch, where all manner of theology is spun out of the silence of the Law. Without respecting the silence of the contract, we open the door wide to chaos.
And, if you think about it, that's exactly what Rome wants, isn't it? I mean, if you can knock out the underpinnings of the Contract then anything goes. Any theology is acceptable as long as the people in power give it the nod, right?
The agenda of the clergy is SO transparent when you look at it that way. The only solution is to slam the door shut against the tyranny of the clergy and adhere only to "thus saith the Lord".
Tradition is fine, as long as it doesn't violate the scriptures. That's what the King said. And the Apostle Paul's mentioning of his tradition only reinforces the King's proclamation. The apostle's teaching is scripture. (See 2 Pet. 3:16)
@@historiaecclesiastica - And before I eave the subject, your scripture reference was off by one. It's First Corinthians 4:6 (not Second). Typos notwithstanding, the lesson of the apostle is clear.
1 Cor. 4:6 - And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
Can't you see that when you prefer a competing theology over "thus saith the Lord" that you're doing exactly what the apostle warned us NOT to do. That which is written is for our edification. Those who are preaching another gospel are doing the exact opposite.
But speaking of Second Corinthians 4, check this out:
2 Cor. 4:2 - But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
Catholicism has authorized reading into the scriptures whatever doctrine is convenient. I mean, there is nothing about the context of Matthew 16:18 that justifies or authorizes "Apostolic Succession" but guess what is trotted out EVERY TIME that doctrine is challenged?
That is a preference of a man (or some men) over the word of God. That is going beyond what is written.
Notice that the above mathematics is what is being used to filter out man made error. It is a discipline on our doctrine. It is a guardrail to prevent the shipwreck of our faith.
Hello.... They were alive or haven't been born yet. A third grader could understand that.
Point of order: The Apostle Paul was not a bishop. Read the qualifications of a bishop in both First Timothy and then the Book of Titus. A bishop must be the husband of one wife. Paul was not married and, therefore, didn't qualify as a bishop. The bible never calls Paul a bishop. Bishops were the overseers of individual congregations (churches). Paul was all over the place. Paul is an apostle but never a bishop. He was never in one place long enough to do that job. After his arrest, he was much more stable but he still wasn't overseeing a congregation - not from prison.
A bishop in the Christian church is a married man with believing children. It's in black and white in the scriptures. Not much you can do about that.
(30-33 A.D.) Jesus Did NOT tell his Disciples to WRITE a NEW TESTAMENT,
he gives them the CHURCH, the AUTHORITY & the HOLY GHOST (Mt. 18:17, 28:19) (Jn. 20:22-23) & says Jesus gives ONLY Peter the KEYS 2 Heaven, which suggests Peter is in CHARGE (Mt. 16:19) (Acts 1:15)
YOU MUST BE UNITED WITH HIS BODY (the CHURCH) NOT a BOOK!
“All salvation comes from Christ the HEAD through the CHURCH his BODY.” (CCC 846-848) (Colossians 1:18) The head is united with the body, must abide in his body (the Church) or be “Cast into the fire.” (John 15:6)
(1522 A.D.) Martin Luther:
“Christ wrote NOT His teaching and gave no command to write it.”
Weimarer Ausgabe (WA) (W.A., 10, pp. 625-28)
Not everything Jesus did is in Bible!
(John 21:25) (2 Thessalonians 2:15)
ORAL tradition, “Teach” what he heard from Paul (2 Timothy 2:2, 3:14-17)
(189 A.D.) St. Irenaeus: “Apostles [Peter and Paul] founded the church [of Rome]… succession…
Linus the office of the episcopate (office of a Bishop)... Clement the bishopric.” (Against Heresies, Book III, Chapter 3:2-4) (Acts 1:20)
3.)
Apostles pass authority by laying on hands to the Bishops (CCC 552, 857-863, 1536-1588)
(Acts 1:21-26, 6:3-6, 9:6, 8:14-19, 13:2-3, 14:23, 15:6, 23) (Mathew 10:1-8, 16:18, 28:19-20) (John 21:17) (1 Peter 5:2) (Ephesians 4:11) (1 Timothy 3:1, 3:8-9, 4:14-16, 5:17-19, 22)
(107 A.D.) St. Ignatius: “Let no man do anything connected with the church without the Bishop.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8:1)
Bishop English word from Greek Episkopoi, Priest English word from Latin Presbyter, Bishop a.k.a. Páppas (Koine Greek) Pope (English)!
(Philippians 1:1) (1 Timothy 4:14) (Apostolic succession - Wikipedia) (Pope - Wikipedia) "Where in the New Testament are "Priests" Mentioned?" (Catholic Answers)
Your references to Melchizedek is not an argument for praying to people who had died. This is off-topic. Your words are obscuring the topic. Melchizedek was a priest of God. A priest's function in every religion is to be the interface of God and man. If you wanted to approach God in worship (i.e. do service to God), you went through a priest.
Every male head of his house was a priest for his family. This was the pattern prior to the institution of the Levitical priesthood, at which point those became the avenue.
When Jesus proclaimed Himself to be the only way to the Father, He ruffled more than a few feathers.
We're not talking about doing "service to God", we're talking about praying. There's no need to obscure the teaching with references to Melchizedek or Abraham's blessing to his sons. That's not what we're talking about.
Keep preaching to the Cult Calvinist , a man-made religion
You did really well until you misrepresented the OO christology. There is no such belief as mixing or mingling the natures. The belief of the OO hypostatic union is that it is one compound nature after the union. The compound nature fully encompasses the properties of the divine nature and the human nature without mingling confusion or alteration. Here is an expression from the Coptic liturgy:
this is the life-giving Flesh that Your only-begotten Son, our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ, took from our Lady, the Lady of us all, the holy Theotokos, Saint Mary. He made It One with His divinity without mingling, without confusion,
and without alteration.
Thank you for your thoughts. What would you say are the distinctions between Chalcedonian Christology and the beliefs you articulated? What would be your perspective of Chalcedonian Christology? I have heard oriental orthodox theologians use the terminology of 'blended' natures before, which is why I used this term. I'm interested to read more on the terminology you used.
Your old Testament examples have nothing to do with praying to the spirits of deceased humans. And this before the life, death and Resurrection of
Christ, and before the Lord sent his Spirit to dwell in the hearts of his believers. As a Catholic, after reading the Bible when I was around 19. I decided I should not be praying to anyone except God.
thats your prideful nature, thinking that you are closer to God than canonized saints
@@SoldadoCatolico You think can presume what's in my mind by telling me what i think, based on me stating a fact? Who do you think you're as good as by judging me? hmm? There is only one judge. No I don't think I'm closer to God than the Saints or anyone for that matter. You find in scripture where there is that example and show me.
St. Ignatius an apostle of St. John: (107 A.D.) “Where there is Jesus Christ there is the CATHOLIC church.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8:2)
(110 A.D.) “Repent and return into the unity of the church, follows a SCHISM he shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.”
(Avoid Schismatics 3:2, 3:3, 4:1, 4)
(412 A.D.) St. Augustine: “Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church the wrath of God rests upon him.” (Letters 141:5)
(253 A.D.) Bishop Cyprian: “Throne of Peter, the chief church, the Romans.” (Epistle 54:14) “One Church, one chair… another altar cannot be set up, nor a new priesthood… whoever gathers elsewhere scatters.” (Letters 43[40]:5)
“He that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.” (Mathew 12:30)
“Serpent (Satan) invented heresies and schisms
he might corrupt the truth.”
(De Catholicae Ecclesiae Unitate 1, 3-4)
(e.g., orthodox, protestants etc.,)
@@dashriprock5720 As a catholic, do you pray to Mary?
yes. duh
All I'm hearing is a reading into of scripture based on personal interpretation. The dead knows nothing and the dead in Christ were not excluded from that scripture
Someone didn’t watch the video
When Saul conjured up Samuel in 1 Samuel 28, Samuel didn't know why he was summoned. Does that sound like a dead someone who could hear the prayers of the living? I mean, if the dead can hear specific prayers then surely righteous Samuel had heard Saul's prayers. No. The Witch of Endor had to conjure him up before he could hear what Saul wanted from him. Read it. Think about your doctrine and read the passage. Did the dead Samuel know what Saul was praying for? Furthermore, if Samuel could indeed hear the prayer of Saul then why conjure him up from the dead. Think about the implications. Saul wouldn't have needed the Witch of Endor, if he was comfortable with praying to dead people. Engage your mind as you read the word of God.
One mediator Christ, then says “Prayers, INTERCESSIONS made for all men.” (1 Timothy 2:1-2, 5),
People MEDIATE for others: Mary for people in Cana (CCC 2674) (John 2:5), Peter for dead Tabitha (Acts 9:36-42), Paul for dead Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18) Moses for Israelites (Exodus 32:30-35), Abraham for Sodom (Genesis 18:22-32), Moses & Samuel in Heaven for Jeremiah on Earth (Jeremiah 15:1), Saul in Heaven for Samuel on Earth (1 Samuel 28:15-26), Priest prays to Jeremiah in Heaven & Jeremiah Apparition (2 Maccabees 15:12-16),
Its because he was abandoned by God. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.” "Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy?" He had to go through different rites to speak to Samuel, necromancy (black magic)
Pray for one another but not to the dead saints.
St. Paul: “Pray for all Saints.” (Ephesians 6:18) He did NOT say pray to only living Saints!
You did!
EXAMPLES OF PRAYING TO DEAD SAINTS!
All saints in Heaven can hear us, God is the God of the living!
Peter for dead Tabitha (Acts 9:36-42),
Paul for dead Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18)
Moses & Samuel in Heaven for Jeremiah on Earth (Jeremiah 15:1),
Saul in Heaven for Samuel on Earth (1 Samuel 28:15-26),
Priest prays to Jeremiah in Heaven & Jeremiah Apparition (2 Maccabees 15:12-16),
Angels & Saints in Heaven MEDIATE (intercede) prayers for saints on Earth! (CCC 946-975) (Revelation 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:4)
“Prayers, INTERCESSIONS made for all men.” then says, One mediator Christ, (1 Timothy 2:1-2, 5),
People MEDIATE for others: Mary for people in Cana (CCC 2674) (John 2:5), Moses for Israelites (Exodus 32:30-35), Abraham for Sodom (Genesis 18:22-32),
St. Paul: “Pray for all Saints.” (Ephesians 6:18) “Pray for us.” (2 Thessalonians 3:1) “Pray one for another.” (James 5:16) Includes Mary, a Saint? YES!
@MUSIC-MARY Not with to a Dead Saint.Did they pray to Moises, Abraham or OT Saints totally Not.They were told to pray for each other not pray to Peter, Paul, Mary.
None of the characters you mentioned prayed to someone who is dead to intercede for them. Only Roman Catholic pagan traditions pray to images of those who died already thinking that those images would hear them to intercede. That is the deception to the deceiver comes from interpretation of man (tradition) not from God.
There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and [h]fared sumptuously every day. 20But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21desiring to be fed with [i]the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead
Neither death nor life can separate us from the blood of Jesus Christ
One mediator Christ, then says “Prayers, INTERCESSIONS made for all men.” (1 Timothy 2:1-2, 5),
People MEDIATE for others: Mary for people in Cana (CCC 2674) (John 2:5), Peter for dead Tabitha (Acts 9:36-42), Paul for dead Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18) Moses for Israelites (Exodus 32:30-35), Abraham for Sodom (Genesis 18:22-32), Moses & Samuel in Heaven for Jeremiah on Earth (Jeremiah 15:1), Saul in Heaven for Samuel on Earth (1 Samuel 28:15-26), Priest prays to Jeremiah in Heaven & Jeremiah Apparition (2 Maccabees 15:12-16),
The tranfiguation, Jesus talked to two dead people!
some Protestants dont study the Bible!
@@junglequeen7386 Idolatry surely will. Hebrew 10:26-27. Believers follows the word of God not the interpretation of man, priest, or elders.
I dissagree with point one because the example provided are of the living on earth only. But you are superimposing the prayers to the dead over the biblical text.
Your distorting the text. The our Father is the only prayer you should use as an example. Pray to who for everything? The father. Not jesus. Or mary or gabriel or anyone else. Why didmt jesus ask adam or enoch or moses to go to God and ask Him to remove this cup from him?
Weeehooo Just found myself a debate. Lets do this!!!
Ok brother, you are correct that we cannot pray to dead people. If we were supposed to do that it would be "necromancy". Its unbiblical and the Lord Jesus detests such things.
*There is one mediator between God and Man, the Lord Jesus Christ*
If we pray we ought to pray to Jesus, for he is the one that became a bridge between God and Man.
> " Why didmt jesus ask adam or enoch or moses to go to God and ask Him to remove this cup from him?"
Yes! Why would he. He asked his Father in heaven. The one who sent him! For he came to do his _Father's will_
Jesus Christ on the other Hand is Son of The Most High God (Father). He is himself God. According to Old and New testament. So when we pray we plead the Son so that we be forgiven and he reconciles us back to his Father. The Holy Spritit (Ruach Ha'Kodesh) is the Spirit of God that works on the ones that have put their faith in Christ. He is the one that corrects us from our mistakes and convicts us of our sins.
God is 3 in One (Triune God)
He was like this from the beginning. It isn't made up starting from the New Testament. It was just more brought to attention.
God Bless your discernment and I pray you find the truth. i.e The Lord Yeshua The Almighty
@@perelium-x there actually no biblical evidence to pray to Jesus.
@@perelium-x which isn't even his name.
@@perelium-x even more so why I'm the world would I pray to Jesus when I can pray to his God. As well the imaginary equality of the trinity is made up indeed. Jesus and the spirit, are both commanded and obey and serve the most High. Neither of them are equal to each other nor are they equal to the Father God. So why would I pray to someone who will, according to the bible, be subjected to the day of judgment? Jesus, the son, according to the new testament will be subjected to the day of judgment. Why would I pray to Jesus.
@@perelium-x Jesus as you call him was the mediator ON EARTH.
You KNOW you twisted augustines quote amongst a few others.
how so? Just interested to hear
Blasphemous
Pray to our God only, not to humans...
Wallahi by God. I swear to God Almighty. That prayer to anyone except the God Jesus prayed to, will lead you to hell. There is absolutely zero biblical evidence..and that is fact.
Also you example is intersession in the old testament, is pertaining to the LIVING. not gone from the earth. There is zero old testament examples
The old testament examples you gave are example of miracles of the prophets. Its not the Catholics version of intersession.
The prayers of the LIVING WHILE ON EARTH, prophets. Like moses, job, jesus, muhammad.ect. they all prayed for their people and good came from that prayer..but there is no example that we see in scriptures where moses asks adam, or abaraham to intercede for their people.
Lies, you speak lies
The purpose of the first section is to establish that God wills us to intercede for one another in prayer and does not demand that we turn only to him directly. The second section establishes that there is no logical reason that God doesn't will for souls in Heaven, united to us on earth by Christ, to continue the ministry of intercessory prayer. The final section demonstrates beyond doubt that the Church fathers believed in placing petitions at the feet of the saints in Heaven.
Salve Maria! Muslim, how is your good works pleasing before God without the shed Blood of Christ? What made you think that your sacrifice is better than Cane's?
My repentance is accepted by the same as the son who ran away and came back, and was accepted by his father with a loving embrace. You may think we don't have a direct line to God. But that's incorrect. We worship God and pray and do as best we can. And in our faults we repent and ask forgiveness. And it is given to us. And anyone who asks with a true spirit.
@@historiaecclesiastica but you gave zero example of God teaching us to pray to the ones who have passed on. The only example you gave were that of intermediaries on earth. And even us Muslims we have the same understanding as the biblical one. The righteous ON earth can pray for you upon your requests. But you aren't allowed to superimpose that specific understanding upon those that are all waiting for the day of judgment..
If you truly want the intercession of Mary and the saints. Then the correct way to get it would be pray to God for him to bless them. And in turn in God will he will bless them by way of your prayers. And it will produce their intersession. But their is no proof they are in heaven now speaking to the Father
God HATES THAT YOU ASK ANY ONE ELSE IN HEAVEN FOR HELP
No, He doesn’t
Lev 19:31 prohibits mediums and going to spiritists. Which in turn prohibits is from doing the same actions as them. Seeking out help through spirits.
And Matthew 6:6 tells us how to pray and who to pray to.
If you are forgetting that God destroyed people and his own people for worshipping other than Him. He names Himself a jealous God. So how do you think God takes it when you call on Mary ? Or Thomas or Andrew? Is it righteous to call on men or women for help, when they are faulty just as you an I are? No. It is not righteous. You disobey and disrespect Christ every time you call you anyone but who he said to pray to. And it will indeed lead you to the hell fire..
@@tftwstf5 lev 19:31 prohibits us from going to demonically possessed mediums and spiritists to speak to those that have passed from this life to the next, period. It doesn’t however keep us from speaking to those alive in Christ through Christ.
As for Jesus’s teaching on prayer in Matt.
12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
John 16:12-13
He’s pretty clear He didn’t give us everything Himself.
@@frekigeri4317 the spirit of truth would never give something contradictory to the pillars of the teachings of God.
I understand that the meaning is going to people who call on spirits. And the dead.
And you guys all go and learn from your church father's to call on others besides God for help.
You are mimicking their practices in the name of Jesus. There is no instructions in the bible or from Paul. Or ANYONE. INSTRUCTING us to call on holy o es who have passed. You know that's the truth. Every one who reads the bible knows this. But you guys superimpose verses of holy ones intersession while their are alone on earth. We even have that in the Quran. But we know by way on the consistency of the prophet and all of the messengers, that they instructed us to call on only God.
@@tftwstf5 the spirit of Truth hasn’t given anything contradictory to scripture. In Hebrew there’s two words translated into English as create. One is to create something from something and the other is to create something from nothing, God does both but something from nothing is only Gods ability.
A demon only has powers that it has corrupted, powers it has received from God, which is the source of all these powers.
Your claim is that prayer to Saints is superficially unique but fundamentally the same to using a demonically possessed person to communicate with dead but I would say they are superficially the same and fundamentally different as the source of the power comes through Christ directly and the demonically possessed person draws their power through a fallen angel and thus indirectly from God. One way is forbidden the other is not.
"Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind." Eccl 12:13-14
God did not command us to pray, ask or talk to dead saints or alive saints. PERIOD