None Of Us Speak Properly
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ต.ค. 2023
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SOURCES & FURTHER READING
What is Elision?: www.yourdictionary.com/articl...
Elision: www.teachingenglish.org.uk/pr...
Elision In English: www.thoughtco.com/elision-pho...
Elision On Britannica: www.thoughtco.com/elision-pho...
Elision On WIkipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elision
Elision & Poetry: www.poetryfoundation.org/lear...
Ain’t: www.thesaurus.com/e/grammar/a...
Does anyone else really want some chocolate now?
As long as it's not the chocolate colored brown stuff that comes out of people's assh0les. Most people can speak better out of their assh0les than Don the Con Trump can speak with his mouth on a good day. I'm an American who is proud to have voted against evil Trump, the worst US president in history. May Don the Con Trump rot in prison.
Eating caramello koalas right now, life is good
yup
No
I would like some choc'late, yes!
I tend to pronounce words "fully", but there's also the fact that I'm a native Italian speaker, so my brain is just used to think "if a word has 6 letters, you should make 6 sounds"
Except for ch, gh, h, gl, gn, gli, sc, and using i after c to show that it is supposed to make the english ch sound, as in ciabatta.
yeah, those exceptions do teach me that you don't always pronounce every sound one way, but Italian doesn't go next level like French or English@@ronshlomi582
@@NIDELLANEUM I know, but it’s also important for learners to know that there are exceptions to generalizations like that so that they don’t pronounce these sounds like how they would be in English.
@@NIDELLANEUM those exceptions mean that your proposed rule "if a word has 6 letters, you should make 6 sounds" is not a rule of Italian at all. so many Europeans like to claim their orthography is transparent when it is not, in some weird attempt to imply they are somehow more logical than the English or French due to that allegedly transparent othography. and don't tell me texting in Italian follows the same grammar and spelling as written or spoken Italian. but that's still Italian.
So you made an example of what I commented. Thank you.
It was one of the most difficult things to me when I was learning English, it's very difficult for a non native speaker understand the elision in the beginning 😅
I think more elisions should be considered as official parts of a given language.
Agreed. This is part of why English is so hard to learn
Well, if you check the pronunciations of these words in a dictionary, you'll find the elided forms are included for most part
@@frankhooper7871Even if they weren’t considered official, they would still be in dictionaries.
Dictionaries document the actual usage of language, not the official/ideal/correct usage of language.
most linguists or linguistically aware people do consider them to be official.
I think elision is about 50% responsible for the Southern accent here in the U.S. I've figured out which things I say in Southern accent because I start dropping extra letters and syllables. It's why I can't say the words "railroad tracks" intelligibly unless I try really hard. 😂
Ray-ro-trax!!
there's not one southern accent in the us. south florida cubans do not speak the same way as plantation descendants in tidewater virginia, or even like south florida dominicans or haitians. and there are ton of ways to speak in between those places, which include places like Atlanta and Houston are now full of immigrants from around the world where dozens to hundreds of languages are spoken.
@@perfectallycromulent to be fair, southern Florida isn't really considered "the south" (not culturally at least)
@@bjornolson6527That's exactly how I say it if I'm not thinking about it 😂
@@WGGplant that was chosen for maximal south to north distance. feel free to substitute houston for south florida, or louisville, or atlanta... the result is the same. there are many regional accents in the southern usa, and there have been for centuries.
In Polish, elision is rare, we tend to pronounce all the letters in each word. Sometimes, there are some words that would lose some letters, but this pronunciation is considered reckless, if not even rude, and certainly not allowed in more formal situations. Examples would be "sobie" -> "se" (particle word for indicating that one does sth to themself or for themself), or "powiedział" -> "poedział" or even "pedział" (he said). In official non-colloquial pronunciation, there is no elision in Polish.
@@beesixteen7596 oh yes, a few more examples. Pięćdziesiąt (number 50) is sometimes even shortened to "pisiąt", "psiąt" etc, that's a bit mumbling, but comprehensible
In Swedish the consonants are often omitted at the end of words:
Jag - (Eng: "I")
Dag - (Eng: "Day")
Vad - (Eng: "What")
Var - (Eng: "Was")
Varför - (Eng: "Why")
Hur - (Eng: "How")
Det - (Eng: "That/There")
So an example would be:
Det var en dag i Maj jag var glad. - (Eng: "There was a day in May I was happy.")
But a Swede would most likely pronounce it:
De va en da i Maj ja va gla.
This varies depending on dialect of course.
I pronounce chocolate with 3 syllables, but the second "o" is a schwa.
Elision does happen in dialectal forms of Arabic. Some dialects would say "كُلُنَا" (Kūllunā) as "كُلنَا" (Klnā), meaning "All of us". Or some would say "کِتَاب" (Kitāb) as "كِتَاب" (Ktēb), meaning "Book".
In the beginning i would pronounce it similar to that, except chocolate, because i speak english as a 2nd language and pronounce things fully in english. In polish, my native language, most people also pronounce things more fully than in english
Hell, sometimes we don't even say "I dunno," and just hum the phrase without even opening our mouths! Language is so cool! 😁
Or to contract 'want to' to 'wanna' or 'going to' to 'gonna'.
This is one of my longtime favorite channels. I hope you keep going. I love etymology and I think this is a comfortable way to keep learning about it.
I never was taught to pronounce it "chocOlate", that just doesn't happen. We had listening exercises back at school and that was supposed to both enhance our understanding of english (obviously) but also to teach us how people actually speak english. Nobody teaches languages like that. We even had occasional lessons, where we were taught specifically different kinds of slang and regional accents so we don't get confused and can understand somebody from Australia or Ireland just as much as the more standard british english we were taught, although later everybody naturally drifts towards american english, because of pop culture. That is also, why sometimes people who speak english as a secnod language have a weird mix of british and american english plus their own accent they bring into the mix.
In Russian, accent marks unusally cause the vowel sound to change instead of disappearing, for example in the word for Russia (Россия, Rossiya) which pronounced more like Rassiya not Rossiya but still the o/a is barely said
I remember being very young and learning to read and thinking it was weird that "comfortable" was spelled like that instead of "cumfterble." The way people pronounce that one is more than just elision, it's an outright scrambling.
small correction for 5:05
Words in German that end with "er" become a "a" (prounounced like the "u" in luck more or less)
So Kinder (children) would become Kinda
yes
And different to the schwa end of Kinde?
@@nealjroberts4050 Kinde /kinde/, Kinder /kində/. Slightly different
@@roman_zabigaliuk
Weirdly the Germans I've met had the reverse with -er becoming e and -e becoming schwa.
We only came up with writing to represent what people are saying, and it's not a perfect system. Writing does not decide what is correct or incorrect about a language. Language changes over time, and writing does not keep up. Some words lose sounds that we still write (e.g. "knight") while others never represented ho we talk (e.g. "ghost"). Sometimes we add or swap sounds. Forget about right and wrong. There isn't a correct form of English. It's always changed, just like how people change over time. You wouldn't say there was a "correct" you at some time, and and your younger or older self is incorrect. It's just different.
Your video content is unusually original. 😂❤
Please keep doing these videos.
Ain't is an interesting example, in that when I was in school in the 1980s just kept insisting that ain't ain't a word and I ain't gonna use it, but at the same time it was everywhere in the Mark Twain books they had us reading written a century ago, meaning they've been prescriptivizing about it since before my teachers were born.
We as Kenyans skipped this class. We pronounce literally (Even in this word) everything. Might be because in Swahili the rule is to pronounce all letters so the logic transfers to other languages as well.
here in Denmark we pronounce it (like everything Danish) differently, its spelt and pronounced Chokolade - with a soft d at the end. so it was very easy for me to learn about the different ways of saying Chocolate. since Danish is like none of them
videos like this make me better about struggling to learn how to spell as a child. sounding it out just doesn't work when we aren't even speaking all of the sounds in a word
When I learned some Spanish through my interest in Flamenco, I knew some terms were elided forms of formal Spanish, such as Rasgueado being shortened to Rasgeo, but I didn't realise it was a general tendency in the Andalusian region until I drove around it in 1996.
What I had learned as "Buenas dias" I heard as less than "Buendia". It reminded me of my New Zealand "Gidday" for the English "Good day", or "Waddaya" for "What do you".
Then you have Jamaica where we pronounce "handle" as "angle" and "hard hat" as "audat"
I tend to pronounce chocolate “chu-glug” if I have already started eating it.
Accent differences aside, I pretty much say the sample sentence with my west-central Ohio drawl the same way you do. 🙂💜
Although I do pronounce temperature more like _temp-richer_ or sometimes _tem-p'churr._
I think those are universal in the U.S.
@@brianarbenz1329 Most likely.
@@brianarbenz1329 Yep, US stress differenence means we delete the e rather than the a
Also... I love your voice and accent teaching us.
To my ear, you ended each run-through of the sample sentence with an extra ə ❤
But on the topic, my grandmother always superpronounced veg-e-ta-ble...
i would say in the beginning "i wanned t'take a photo o some chocla wi my camra f my famly but the tempture s too high so now is histry
I didn’t think that sentence was that weird, as I associate British speakers with saying every word 100% correctly.
Scho-ko-lade, in German there are three syllables.
ice cream, in German just "Eis", no cream. Or you can say "Speiseeis"
Scho-ko-la-de, in German there are four syllables
In Tagalog we have several cases but I cannot explain them completely. These are for common or colloquial speech, but not for the literary or formal registers. This usually happens in the Manila Dialect people see in popular media and copy even if their everyday language is not Tagalog.
Mayroón (“there is”/“have”) - meron
Kailán (“when”) - kelan
Kaysá (“instead”) - kesa
Tainga (“ear”) - tenga
Doón (“there”) - dun
Sa akin (“to me”) - sa’kin/sakin
Then text language shortens everything using the least amount of numbers and letters to write words.
Citation needed on the elided pronunciations being "technically wrong".
What's the source of these technical rules and is that a good source? The Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus and the Cambridge Academic Content Dictionary only give two-syllable pronunciations of chocolate, in either British or American. The OED gives a three syllable pronunciation but the schwa sound in the middle is in brackets, meaning they consider it optional. They don't consider it technically incorrect to drop it.
But going by the OED using an o sound in the middle instead of a schwa or nothing would be incorrect.
elision is a great way to hack games surrounding syllables :-)
My Boston accent shares a lot with some British and Irish accents.
I'm Australian but at school other kids kept asking if I was English because I had a big vocabulary and the son of the BBC accent the ABC accent because they used the same pronunciation guidelines well into the late 80s. We watched a lot of ABC in my house and a lot of that was from BBC or Thames TV.
When you had on screen 'you are supposed to say them' , my brain thought "you're s'posta say 'em."
Yeah, I'm a bit tired right now. I enjoyed the video.
In Norway we dont drop the vovels i think. Lots of silent konsonants, but i dont know about any missing vowel
Dr. Geoff Lindsey has some very accessible linguistic videos. I know he has a video where he discussed elision, only I think it's part of a video primarily about something else.
As a descriptivist and not a prescriptivist, I find the the idea of "technically were supposed to say all the letters" to be just straight up crazy. It implies some central authority or something. Then the question arises, where did they get their authority from?
Do other languages have this that I am missing and may be adding to my misunderstanding? For instance; I can read, write, and speak Spanish pretty darn fluently, pero escuchando...no tan bien.
Having English as my second language I tend to say full words
In dutch we drop the n at the end of a lot of words. Most verb infinitives, and the plural conjugations end in -en and one of the two ways to form plurals is by adding -en. So a word like 'praten' (to talk') becomes 'prate' and boeken (books) becomes 'boeke'. The e at the end of such words is almost always unstressed, so dropping the n doesn't sound weird.
And little doubt it would sound strange (albeit not wrong) when we foreigners pronounce the -n all the time. Likewise if always saying "wij" and never "we"
interestingly english used to have -en infinitive before being dropped sometime during transition to modern english because it got reduced to -e before being gone completely.
Not me hearing the 1st pronunciation and thinking it’s completely fine
T, D, H and vowels (English). D is often elided after N in unstressed syllables (so "secon'" for "second" but not "han'le" for "handle") or sometimes word-finally in one-syllable words (e.g. "han'" for "hand") especially if the next letter is alveolar (N, D, T, S, Z, TH), as in "en' zone" or "secon' name"
How about “second hand” (of a clock)? Sounds like “secon han”.
@@indigop38 True. Sometimes D is elided under conditions outside the ones I listed. I will edit my comment to cover cases like that while still excluding cases where the D is never elided like "handle" or "panda"
While it is elision, this is often treated as a slightly separate subprocess called consonant cluster simplification. Also, I do say han'le but I am basiʔly an elision trope personifier. :) Mess of an accent that includes one non-native English speaking parent, a Midwest base, a heavy, heavy East KY outpost overlay, and a lot of British television.
@@aaronodonoghue1791 It only gets elided in coda. I pronounce handle as hand-el, so the d gets elided. Others pronounce handle as han-dul, so it doesn't. I don't think panda is ever pronounced as pand-uh. If it is, it's possible to lose the d.
The han’le of this po’ on the other han’ ‘ll take ya a few secons t’ ge’ ust to
In Sydney Australia, there is no T in Minto
The interesting thing with contractions is that they're actually the standard form. The expanded form is only grammatically correct for emphasis or if it would make no sense. e.g.
"You ARE NOT meant to be here."
"Actually, I AM meant to be here." Or "Yes I am." (as "Yes, I'm" would sound completely mental).
4:48 It isn't really dropped, but it's turned into a glottal stop (the sound of the - in uh-oh)
My dialect of English (unsure which one but it’s Midwestern) pronounces the E in Camera! It’s a weird Rhotic vowel which in linguistics seems to only be listed in English and Mandarin Erhua.
I use translation software for a lot of online video games, and I find myself limiting idioms, slang and contractions so the software doesn't go crazy. So then my brain sounds out every word with severe clarity, lol.
“Down below-a, Thank You-a!” Whadya’ call that!?! -a
Thanks
I'd previously thought of elision as a glide between separate syllables as opposed to dividing them up discretely. Maybe it's because 'elide' and 'glide' rhyme.
I can't help but think of an interesting phenomenon related to this, at least in my local accent (possibly a more widespread thing for Western American accents): specifically, how words with double-Ts in the middle get treated so differently in pronunciation. Example words are "cotton", "butter", and "letter". In my accent, those would be pronounced "co'n", "budder", and "letter", respectively. While in English, people who aren't linguists might think of the "cotton" example as a form of elision, it's not, since that stop in there is important ("con" sounds distinctly different, and people don't think of the two as even near homonyms). I know linguists have a name for this phenomenon. Heck, since I haven't watched the whole backlog of videos on this channel, it's possible it's been brought up.
Is glottal stop what you were thinking of?
@@MegaIorex I don't know why I didn't mention in my post, but I do know what a glottal stop is. I mean I'm not sure if there's a name for the overall phenomenon when a sound will split into such different ways within the same accent, rather than uniformly changing for all instances of the sound.
I love the fact that the o from "elision" is also often dropped
In the Southern USA, "y'all'd've" is a word. As in "if y'all'd've gotten here on time".
I love seeing contractions taken to the extreme. "you all would have". 4 words reduced to a single word with two syllables (one of which might be a syllabic consonant). This is how inflectional morphology begins.
I am from Sweden and have noticed elision in Swedish, for example. "Something" in Swedish is "något", but pretty much everyone at least where I'm from say "nåt". It used to confuse me so much when I started learning grammar.
Extra syllables give flexibility when making haikus.
At 1:04 you'd be lucky to find someone who says that much of temperature. Over where I live its tempture
Janury, Febry, Wensdy, Thursdy, Satdy......
thanks
What do you mean by “supposed to be” spoken? We don’t have the Académie Anglais telling us what we’re supposed to say.
In New England we pronounce Temperature as "Temp-Richer".
Can you make a video explaining why the name _James_ has the highest nickname-to-syllable ratio in the English language?
Does it?
i am a james, but i'm pretty sure that title belongs to the johns. or jons. or jhons.
@nealjroberts4050 _James_ is interchangeable with _Jacob,_ and so the nicknames derived from _Jacob_ are often adopted by people properly named _James._
@@mydogbullwinkle
Doesn't prove anything
Shamus is also a variant of James.
4:45 Does this count as elision? There's still a glottal stop, so if that gets dropped it would be elision, but maybe lenition or debuccalization would be a better term.
forecastle and cupboard come to mind... (fo'c'sle and cubbard)
I’ve heard Italian-Americans use elision in Italian words such as capisce, paisano, and pasta fagiole (soup). Example: My favorite soup, Paisan’, is pasta fazul’. Capish’?
One example of elision that you'll hear in Canada is the pronunciation of Toronto. It sounds like T'rawna.
Interestingly in my dialect of Californian and Iowan English I only say history properly, and the rest of them I say them like most people. I don’t know why that’s the only one that’s different but I find that really interesting
In Flemish, a sort of dialect of Dutch, we have a lot of elision.
For example:"Ik zie dat je honger hebt" (I see that you are hungry) becomes "Ksiedagongerept"
Many people in the Philadelphia area pronounce "Did you eat" as "Jeet"
In Dutch (At least the Belgian variant: Flemish) we almost always drop the last -n of verbs.
example: "Lopen" becomes "lope"
And while most people pronounce it as such, since phones and texting emerged, it became more prevalent in written language too
I totally agree, but actually, in dictionaries with phonetic notations of verbs, the final n is often put between brackets.
But in West-Vlaanderen, they drop the soft e before te N, like kakken becomes kakkn, becomes ka'n.
To the non-Dutch speakers out there: please don't put this word in a translator.
Sorry maar ik moest dat woord gewoon pakken want "Kmoe ka'n" is één van de weinige West-Vlaamse zinnen die ik ken.
@MisterNiuf In Nederland doen we het zelfde.
You do but you usually skip and don't stress the middle syllable, you tend to stress the L and not the o or just shove pronunciation in two syllables
Cho-co-late becomes chalk-collete or chawk'lette
in chile we drop the letter d and s , and sometimes we add the letter i at the end , like me entiendes becomes me entendih pd :the h is for fonetical reasons
Extreme elision: my son can manage to say "except" without both the "p" and the "t", replacing them with something like a glottal stop.
I've an ongoing difference with my family over the pronunciation of 'caramel'.
I have noticed that in American documentaries they pronounce vehicle with 3 syllables where in the UK it’s 2.
In the part of America i recently moved to, they say vehicle with 1 syllable o-o (it rhymes with "pickle", so its like "vickle"
For instance Ndakhuyanza, the u in the middle tends to be unstressed in the middle of the word especially in verbs in Luhya
That's pretty nice :)
What's the phenomenon called when there's a word and you truly mispronounce it?
For example, "nuclear", it's "nu-cle-ar" but I've heard so many muricans pronounce it as "nu-cu-lar"
That's metathesis, which isn't actually what you're asking for, but it's what happens in "nuclear"/"nucular". Metathesis is specifically the swapping of two sounds in a word, like when moving an l from the second syllable to the third syllable. In the case of "nucular", there are actually several factors involved in its metathesis and it has been accepted into the Oxford English Dictionary.
Isn't Bo'oh'o'water not technically ellision since it is being replaced by a gloatal stop (t-gloatilization) not just deleted?
Indeed, it's not like there is a bollawar
In elementary school, my 5th grade math teacher pointed out we all said "I don't know" as "iohno"
I’m from the *South West* of England I said *Matt* at work today and realised how weird it was that I ended up saying *Mahh*
where can we get world map thats low engought quality so if you edit it on paint 3d it doesnt look that weird
I’ve noticed from watching British television series that Cockney speakers say “i’n’it” for “isn’t it”.
Thumbnail wrong. In the part of Britain I live in, we do pronounce the 'o'.
Well, in Indonesian chocolate become coklat , where c and ch has no different sound, but c and k is completely different sound. Sometimes that was the thing for people learning English can get difficult.
Also, if we dropped these syllables, then the usefulness for the schwa would possibly be diminished
That’s interesting, I don’t ever cut any syllables in the word history. The other words fit normal, everyday quick-speak but I’d still pronounce history hi-sto-ry.
Just because it has been replaced with a pause doesnt mean we don't pronounce it. It has an audible impact on pronounciation even if it is just a pause of half the lenght of the full vowel.
American English generally drops the 2nd e in temperature rather than the a. It's fascinating that accent can even show in elision. I am known to my friends (and especially to the ones who were also linguistics majors) as a particularly bad elider, deleting entire central syllables not just vowels. For example, here's my comment elided how I would say it in casual speech:
'Mer'can 'nglish gen'r'y drops 'e second e in temp'ture rather than the a. It's fascinatin' that accent 'n even show in elision. I am known ' my friends (an' 'spec'ly ' the ones who were also linguis'ics majors) as ' pa'ticu'ly bad elider, dele'in' entire central syllables no' jus' vo'ls. For 'zample here's my comment 'lided how I'd say i' in casua' speech.
Probably is straight out pronounced pry [pɹɑɪ]
I just came here to make the same comment about Australian English. We drop the second 'e' in temperature, rather than the 'a'. Australian English is non-rhotic so we drop the second 'r' too, giving something like "temp-ra-cha".
The middle of "termerature" is either /ɹə/ or /ɚ/ and I genuinely cannot tell which, but it id definitely not /ɚə/.
@@angeldude101 It is if you're posh enough
In spanish the "s" its dropped a lot in several countries..is it technically an elision ?
LOL, hizzah for English's historical spelling. /s To excerpt-quote NativLang, "It's what we do!"
5:05 it's not really elision there, that's just kind how er is supposed to be pronounced
as with Japanese and U and I that's kind of interesting because the vowels are actually kind of voiceless, but I've heard younger generations apparently do actually omit them
The most interesting part is how it changes by accent. Like for example I would pronounce 'history' as three syllables.
Plenty of people pronounce all three syllables of "history". That's just speaking well.
Plenty of people pronounce all three syllables of "history". That's just speaking well.
Plenty of people pronounce all three syllables of "history". That's just speaking well.
Plenty of people pronounce all three syllables of "history". That's just speaking well.
Plenty of people pronounce all three syllables of "history". That's just speaking well.
5:17 So recently I've been thinking about a former queen streets and squares and such are named after: Wilhelmina. Pronounced Wilemina.
That's a h elision. Also a thing you 'ear in England, especially south-east, ey?
As an example of Dutch elision: I dunno if 'kweenie' is officially Dutch, but that's short for 'Ik weet [het] niet': I don't know.
"Aluminum" is the one that always gets to me--I can't cope with hearing so many people say "al-oo-MIN-ee-umm" and insist that it's spelled that way. No, it's spelled "al-OO-min-umm"; an Italian lady once pointed out to me that if it were "aluminium" it would probably be spelled with a g somewhere (alumignum? Alumingum? I could accept that pronunciation if one of those were the spelling).
It is illegal to loan a friend a movie or CD? That is crazy. Can you loan books? Do you have libraries?
There’s an episode of SpongeBob where the main plot is SpongeBob and Patrick selling chocolate and they say “chocolate” (silent second “o”) a lot, notably when there’s a fish that just screams “CHOCOLATE!” repeatedly. That was so ingrained in my head as a kid that I just assumed that was the correct way of pronouncing “chocolate”.
I don't drop vowels, I replace them with a short /ə/.