Historically accurate vs culturally accurate is such an interesting way to frame it. History is always seen through a particular lens after all. I think you could shorten this book by a third and not lose anything. Toronaga and how calculating he could be was my favorite aspect. How utilitarian everyone was in their choices I'm sure are exaggerated to do extent. It's like seeing the story through the eyes of someone who buys into the whole mythos of this mysterious foreign culture. I can see why it was so popular back in the day.
Agreed on shortening it by 1/3. I still think a specific type of person would love this book but we’ve become an increasingly globalised world with so much more understanding of other cultures that I can’t personally isolate my reading of it, if that makes sense?
This was super insightful, and none of the other videos on this book I've watched went so in-depth. As a non-native English speaker, I generally cringe when English books attempt to use Spanish, because 99% of the time it's outright wrong, in spelling and/or meaning--so I can see where you're coming from here. I don't think I'll dive into this one anytime soon, tbh. I'm short in time and, although it looks like a great, it's not really in what I'm invested right now. That said, do you tend to read a lot of historical fiction? I haven't in a few years, unfortunately!
Glad it was useful! I think you’ll like aspects of it but I don’t think it’ll be a favourite. I don’t read tons but I read maybe a handful a year. I like it as a sub genre but I’ve found in the past that a long of epic historical fiction drags. Do you?
@@bookswithzara Yeah, more or less. To me, any genre gets too boring after too long. Sometimes I need to rotate to keep the interest going. Especially when there are too many similar themes.
I really appreciated this review. You raised excellent points. I am the reader that knows very little about Japanese history and culture so, as you predicted, I would rate the book higher than 3.75 stars. I agree that Seppuku seems overly present in the book but I assume the author was driving home some themes (honor more important than life and you’re never more alive than when you are close to death). I totally agree with your two favorite characters. I was particularly drawn to the inner workings of the characters (calculations within actions with a heavy dose of deceptions). To repeat, loved your review and the book.
Thank you, Vernon! It’s great to hear your views too, and I’m happy to hear you had a good time with it. Suffice to say, Clavell has opened up a part of the world to a lot of people and even though I don’t fully like the execution of it, I can’t help but commend him for that! Thank you for your comment :)
Very interesting to hear your perspective on this. I have to admit that I'd never been super interested in this book, so I'd rather pick Mushashi up before this one anyway. Glad you still had a good experience overall though!
Great review, Zara. I've been meaning to read this for awhile now (nowhere near as long as you though 😅 after Malazan i needed a break from tomes) and admittedly my knowledge of Japanese language, history and culture is rather limited but i always try to be conscious of that whenever i read Historical-Fiction.
@@bookswithzara you might be right. I don't see myself reading it anytime soon, upcoming adaptations don't tend to get me to read things sooner. Readings a hobby so I try not to put pressure on myself. I think the last time I did that was the first short story collection when Witcher Season 1 came out. I think the next tome I'll probably read after I'm finished Dandelion Dynasty is either Pillars of the Earth or IT.
I am about a third of the way through and so far, I am really enjoying it. I am not one who is considering a serious study of Japanes culture so the lack of world building did not bother me all that much. Overall, from what I have read, I think this saga fully deserves the hype. As far as the depictions of the Japanese language go, if it was done with the Japanese alphabet rather than the phonetic anglicized approach, it would be totally unintelligible to most readers and the impossible to pronounce and read. Good review nonetheless!
Sanada Hiroyuki prioritized better alignment with the Japanese culture and ethos for the new cinematic adaptation, compared to the source novel and previous adaptation. Hope you have a chance to watch _Shogun_ 2024.
I finished it last night! Was absolute perfection! He did a phenomenal job, both as Toranaga and as a producer! Will be doing a video on the show at some point.
@@bookswithzara - Excellent. Based on what you stated in this video regarding experience with the Japanese language, culture, and history (i.e. far more than most westerners), I’m not surprised. Look forward to hearing more of your thoughts on this.
I’m no expert on Japanese culture - nor any Asian society for that matter - but I did enjoy reading the book a lot more than you did, perhaps because I did not feel the material as short of broader themes as perhaps you did - although I do agree its redundant seppuku invocation throughout became a bit tiresome … Toranaga & Mariko were also my favorite characters but I wished clavel had given a better ending for Fujiko instead of letting her kill ‘accidentally’ kill herself & Omi should have gotten some sort of retribution for his treatment of blackthorne & that poor nonbowing peasant
Thanks for the comment, it's always nice hearing an alternative experience! My issue was more with the lack of distinct world-building... the only thing that made it feel like it was in Japan was the fact that there were some characters who were Japanese and the occasional cultural reference. I would have expected someone who had spent a non insignificant amount of time there to reference the foods, smells, clothes, music, landscapes etc more. I still gave it a 4/5 stars so not all hope was lost! I agree re Fujiko, she definitely deserved better. Same for Omi. I'm curious, have you read the next books in the series? I know they all cover different time periods but I've not heard many people talk about the following books and I'm curious to hear whether the quality is the same or otherwise.
Part of why people remember this so fondly is because of exactly what you described in the beginning of this review - it was an introduction to Japanese culture published at a time when that familiarity just wasn't there. The Far East in general was an exotic, sort of unknown place, and with Japan's economic influence surging, people were ignorant and fascinated. If you want to see more of the same (or similar) read something like The Ninja by Eric Van Lustbader (sometimes just Eric Lustbader). Successful for the same reasons (I'm not saying it's a good book, but it hit some similar notes).
I get that which I why I think it’ll still appeal to a certain type of audience. I’m personally interested in more ‘authentic’ representation, which is why I think Musashi is better. That being said, the whole trope of a westerner going to an ‘exotic’ place will always be intriguing and why I think a lot of people will continue to like this book. One can almost put themselves in the shoes of Blackthorne.
It's nice to hear a review from someone who has some knowledge of Japanese history and culture! I'm currently editing a review of Abercrombie's "Best Served Cold" in which I've spent way too much time nitpicking certain depictions of what is essentially a medieval European setting, not because I think that fantasy fiction needs to accurately depict medieval arms and armour, but simply because I enjoy talking about history that I know at least a little bit about (even though I'm neither European nor medieval). However when it comes to representing a real-world culture in a work of historical fiction, I think that a lot more care needs to be taken in how that culture is depicted.
Thanks Josh. I completely agree on your last sentence. I do find that the overall way he captured the culture was accurate but then it was the details he was poor at capturing. Which is weird because he spent years in Japan! Seems lazy.
Nice insight! I don't think I'll ever get around to reading this one despite the recent booktube hype around it. I just can't get down on a book of this type at 1300+ pages, that has mediocre world-building.
I DNF this book because I was getting annoyed - this whole exoticisation of cultures (East Asian, South Asian, African) is a pet peeve of mine. Not doubting the author's research but big question mark on the depiction. Nice discussion. 😁
I appreciate your opinions but two separate Japanese historical societies, both based in Japan, reviewed this book and found it to be highly accurate in regards to setting and culture of 1600's Japan. I'm sure their papers are still able to be found online. They stated that they found very few errors, and the ones they did find were minor. In fact, the majority of the main criticisms the book has gotten from people in the west (not all, but most) have been proven to be invalid. (Not speaking of narrative here but the culture and setting of the time period as represented in the book.) This is the same situation that happened with the film Apocalypto by Mel Gibson. He wrote a film that took place in the Mayan civilization in the early 1500's. Everyone in the world began attacking him for historical inaccuracies until the Mayan's themselves wrote a paper explaining how extremely accurate his film was.
Bit of a weird question, especially since I want to read the book despite your mixed review: how is the quality of the physical book you read? In the US there’s only the tv tie-in version, and they’ve decided to split it into two volumes and charge full price per volume, even on ebook. So I want to get the UK edition you read (thank God for BlackWells!). Is it a nice quality book, or is it made with cheap materials/poor binding/unpleasant page design/etc?
I ended up switching to kindle as I found the paper to be cheap and thin. The page design and binding was fine and the cover didn’t feel cheap it was just the paper. I didn’t read far enough for this to happen but the spine would have get broken as well, quite badly. The edition I have is the one pictured in the video.
I wonder what Japanese people themselves think about this book and whether it is truly accurate to their culture. I might try Shogun tho although I am more interested in the show tbh. Also have you read Vagabond? It is about Musashi and the art is stunning and this is coming from someone who don’t even like samurai that much
I've spoken to a few Japanese friends and all of them had issues with the depiction of their culture. Of course, a small sample size, but I've read some stuff online too. I do have Vagabond, yes! I'm going to start it after I finish my current manga read.
At least thanks for talking about Musashi, I'm definitely curious about that now - but this, little world building and cultural inaccuracies, it seems like it be hard to kill my interest in historical fiction faster, at that point why bother? Sounds sorta how I felt about Pillars of the Earth unfortunately - a big story in the guise of being historical but without much depth at all... unfortunate
Yeah, it’s frustrating to say the least, as then, what’s the point? What are we truly getting from it other than some sweeping generalisations rather than the nuances (which, for me; are the most interesting parts). I didn’t realise Pillars of the Earth was historically inaccurate. Has put me off a bit.
@@bookswithzara I dunno about the history for Pillars, it may be broadly fine just don't think the world is as accurate/deep as you'd hope. Similar to what you were saying here Musashi's definitely going on the list tho, that sounds great
The characters are interesting and dynamic, but as someone who's familiar with the events of the end of the Sengoku period, it was a bit annoying that the author just slightly changed the names of characters who were based on real people. Maybe not Mariko (who is clearly Akechi Tama) but Toranaga being Tokugawa was obvious. Maybe the author didn't have historical rights to use the names of the actual people in his historical novel, but it just seemed like a lazy attempt of "alternate history" . Didn't prevent me from enjoying the story but still.
Its a book written from a western perspective of Japanese experience lol it wont be like Musashi and no one reads it with the expectation that it will. Reading it soon after that will obviously make it feel less Japanese lol but the plotting and writing is better than Musashi even though its not as detailed about their world.
I didn’t go into it with that expectation nor did I say anyone should. I find it odd that a book ABOUT a westerner going to a foreign place had very little reflection on the places, food, people, clothes, sounds etc etc. When I travel to a new place, these are the first things I notice.
If he had added the world building elements that you seem to think are so lacking, the book would have been another 1000 pages longer and you wouldn't have read it. It probably wouldn't even have gotten published.
"World building" is an interesting criticism. It's in the world. It's isn't fantasy. What world is being built? It's the greatest novel I've ever read. Clavell was a prisoner of the Japanese in a very brutal POW camp and understood the culture very well - as any prisoner would. If you are powerless, you really see through the people with the power.
A real world is built through descriptions of food, people, sounds, smells, clothes etc etc. As I said, this was done exceptionally well in Musashi but barely at all in this book. Of course, this is my opinion.
Historically accurate vs culturally accurate is such an interesting way to frame it. History is always seen through a particular lens after all.
I think you could shorten this book by a third and not lose anything.
Toronaga and how calculating he could be was my favorite aspect. How utilitarian everyone was in their choices I'm sure are exaggerated to do extent. It's like seeing the story through the eyes of someone who buys into the whole mythos of this mysterious foreign culture. I can see why it was so popular back in the day.
Agreed on shortening it by 1/3. I still think a specific type of person would love this book but we’ve become an increasingly globalised world with so much more understanding of other cultures that I can’t personally isolate my reading of it, if that makes sense?
This was super insightful, and none of the other videos on this book I've watched went so in-depth. As a non-native English speaker, I generally cringe when English books attempt to use Spanish, because 99% of the time it's outright wrong, in spelling and/or meaning--so I can see where you're coming from here. I don't think I'll dive into this one anytime soon, tbh. I'm short in time and, although it looks like a great, it's not really in what I'm invested right now. That said, do you tend to read a lot of historical fiction? I haven't in a few years, unfortunately!
Glad it was useful! I think you’ll like aspects of it but I don’t think it’ll be a favourite.
I don’t read tons but I read maybe a handful a year. I like it as a sub genre but I’ve found in the past that a long of epic historical fiction drags. Do you?
@@bookswithzara Yeah, more or less. To me, any genre gets too boring after too long. Sometimes I need to rotate to keep the interest going. Especially when there are too many similar themes.
@@liviajelliot well said and agreed.
I really appreciated this review. You raised excellent points. I am the reader that knows very little about Japanese history and culture so, as you predicted, I would rate the book higher than 3.75 stars. I agree that Seppuku seems overly present in the book but I assume the author was driving home some themes (honor more important than life and you’re never more alive than when you are close to death). I totally agree with your two favorite characters. I was particularly drawn to the inner workings of the characters (calculations within actions with a heavy dose of deceptions). To repeat, loved your review and the book.
Thank you, Vernon! It’s great to hear your views too, and I’m happy to hear you had a good time with it. Suffice to say, Clavell has opened up a part of the world to a lot of people and even though I don’t fully like the execution of it, I can’t help but commend him for that! Thank you for your comment :)
Very interesting to hear your perspective on this. I have to admit that I'd never been super interested in this book, so I'd rather pick Mushashi up before this one anyway. Glad you still had a good experience overall though!
Yeah, definitely pick up Musashi! Really curious to hear your thoughts on it when you get to it.
Great review, Zara. I've been meaning to read this for awhile now (nowhere near as long as you though 😅 after Malazan i needed a break from tomes) and admittedly my knowledge of Japanese language, history and culture is rather limited but i always try to be conscious of that whenever i read Historical-Fiction.
Thanks Rogue. I think you’d like it but I don’t think it’d be a favourite by any means.
@@bookswithzara you might be right. I don't see myself reading it anytime soon, upcoming adaptations don't tend to get me to read things sooner. Readings a hobby so I try not to put pressure on myself. I think the last time I did that was the first short story collection when Witcher Season 1 came out.
I think the next tome I'll probably read after I'm finished Dandelion Dynasty is either Pillars of the Earth or IT.
I am about a third of the way through and so far, I am really enjoying it. I am not one who is considering a serious study of Japanes culture so the lack of world building did not bother me all that much. Overall, from what I have read, I think this saga fully deserves the hype. As far as the depictions of the Japanese language go, if it was done with the Japanese alphabet rather than the phonetic anglicized approach, it would be totally unintelligible to most readers and the impossible to pronounce and read. Good review nonetheless!
Thanks and totally fair. I do think for its intended audience it probably is worth the hype!
Sanada Hiroyuki prioritized better alignment with the Japanese culture and ethos for the new cinematic adaptation, compared to the source novel and previous adaptation. Hope you have a chance to watch _Shogun_ 2024.
I finished it last night! Was absolute perfection! He did a phenomenal job, both as Toranaga and as a producer! Will be doing a video on the show at some point.
@@bookswithzara - Excellent. Based on what you stated in this video regarding experience with the Japanese language, culture, and history (i.e. far more than most westerners), I’m not surprised. Look forward to hearing more of your thoughts on this.
There was a TV miniseries in 1980 with Richard Chamberlain.
Yeah, I’ve heard of it. No real desire to watch it. I read it mainly so I could watch the new one that’s coming out in a week.
I’m no expert on Japanese culture - nor any Asian society for that matter - but I did enjoy reading the book a lot more than you did, perhaps because I did not feel the material as short of broader themes as perhaps you did - although I do agree its redundant seppuku invocation throughout became a bit tiresome … Toranaga & Mariko were also my favorite characters but I wished clavel had given a better ending for Fujiko instead of letting her kill ‘accidentally’ kill herself & Omi should have gotten some sort of retribution for his treatment of blackthorne & that poor nonbowing peasant
Thanks for the comment, it's always nice hearing an alternative experience! My issue was more with the lack of distinct world-building... the only thing that made it feel like it was in Japan was the fact that there were some characters who were Japanese and the occasional cultural reference. I would have expected someone who had spent a non insignificant amount of time there to reference the foods, smells, clothes, music, landscapes etc more. I still gave it a 4/5 stars so not all hope was lost!
I agree re Fujiko, she definitely deserved better. Same for Omi.
I'm curious, have you read the next books in the series? I know they all cover different time periods but I've not heard many people talk about the following books and I'm curious to hear whether the quality is the same or otherwise.
Part of why people remember this so fondly is because of exactly what you described in the beginning of this review - it was an introduction to Japanese culture published at a time when that familiarity just wasn't there. The Far East in general was an exotic, sort of unknown place, and with Japan's economic influence surging, people were ignorant and fascinated. If you want to see more of the same (or similar) read something like The Ninja by Eric Van Lustbader (sometimes just Eric Lustbader). Successful for the same reasons (I'm not saying it's a good book, but it hit some similar notes).
I get that which I why I think it’ll still appeal to a certain type of audience. I’m personally interested in more ‘authentic’ representation, which is why I think Musashi is better. That being said, the whole trope of a westerner going to an ‘exotic’ place will always be intriguing and why I think a lot of people will continue to like this book. One can almost put themselves in the shoes of Blackthorne.
It's nice to hear a review from someone who has some knowledge of Japanese history and culture! I'm currently editing a review of Abercrombie's "Best Served Cold" in which I've spent way too much time nitpicking certain depictions of what is essentially a medieval European setting, not because I think that fantasy fiction needs to accurately depict medieval arms and armour, but simply because I enjoy talking about history that I know at least a little bit about (even though I'm neither European nor medieval). However when it comes to representing a real-world culture in a work of historical fiction, I think that a lot more care needs to be taken in how that culture is depicted.
Thanks Josh. I completely agree on your last sentence. I do find that the overall way he captured the culture was accurate but then it was the details he was poor at capturing. Which is weird because he spent years in Japan! Seems lazy.
Nice insight! I don't think I'll ever get around to reading this one despite the recent booktube hype around it. I just can't get down on a book of this type at 1300+ pages, that has mediocre world-building.
Smart decision! Read Musashi!
I DNF this book because I was getting annoyed - this whole exoticisation of cultures (East Asian, South Asian, African) is a pet peeve of mine. Not doubting the author's research but big question mark on the depiction.
Nice discussion. 😁
Thanks Paromita. I think I expected that specific aspect so it didn’t annoy me as much but totally get it.
I appreciate your opinions but two separate Japanese historical societies, both based in Japan, reviewed this book and found it to be highly accurate in regards to setting and culture of 1600's Japan. I'm sure their papers are still able to be found online. They stated that they found very few errors, and the ones they did find were minor. In fact, the majority of the main criticisms the book has gotten from people in the west (not all, but most) have been proven to be invalid. (Not speaking of narrative here but the culture and setting of the time period as represented in the book.)
This is the same situation that happened with the film Apocalypto by Mel Gibson. He wrote a film that took place in the Mayan civilization in the early 1500's. Everyone in the world began attacking him for historical inaccuracies until the Mayan's themselves wrote a paper explaining how extremely accurate his film was.
@@Kris-bp4td as I said in the video, I did speak to my Japanese friends and I’m going by what they thought. Thanks.
I loved Shogun 😅
Fair enough!
"Seppuku is not something you do often"
Well, I doubt you can do it a second time...
Indeed. Of course, I was referring to the concept as a whole, not on an individual level.
Bit of a weird question, especially since I want to read the book despite your mixed review: how is the quality of the physical book you read? In the US there’s only the tv tie-in version, and they’ve decided to split it into two volumes and charge full price per volume, even on ebook. So I want to get the UK edition you read (thank God for BlackWells!). Is it a nice quality book, or is it made with cheap materials/poor binding/unpleasant page design/etc?
I ended up switching to kindle as I found the paper to be cheap and thin. The page design and binding was fine and the cover didn’t feel cheap it was just the paper. I didn’t read far enough for this to happen but the spine would have get broken as well, quite badly. The edition I have is the one pictured in the video.
@@bookswithzara thanks!
I wonder what Japanese people themselves think about this book and whether it is truly accurate to their culture. I might try Shogun tho although I am more interested in the show tbh. Also have you read Vagabond? It is about Musashi and the art is stunning and this is coming from someone who don’t even like samurai that much
I've spoken to a few Japanese friends and all of them had issues with the depiction of their culture. Of course, a small sample size, but I've read some stuff online too.
I do have Vagabond, yes! I'm going to start it after I finish my current manga read.
At least thanks for talking about Musashi, I'm definitely curious about that now - but this, little world building and cultural inaccuracies, it seems like it be hard to kill my interest in historical fiction faster, at that point why bother? Sounds sorta how I felt about Pillars of the Earth unfortunately - a big story in the guise of being historical but without much depth at all... unfortunate
Yeah, it’s frustrating to say the least, as then, what’s the point? What are we truly getting from it other than some sweeping generalisations rather than the nuances (which, for me; are the most interesting parts).
I didn’t realise Pillars of the Earth was historically inaccurate. Has put me off a bit.
Forgot to add, definitely read Musashi. It’s wonderful and has everything Shogun was trying to do but better imo.
@@bookswithzara I dunno about the history for Pillars, it may be broadly fine just don't think the world is as accurate/deep as you'd hope. Similar to what you were saying here
Musashi's definitely going on the list tho, that sounds great
A great review, very insightful thank you ☺️
Thank you!
Not sure what John Blackthorn can be proud of considering England was viewed as a pirate state back in the 16th century.
I agree. Doesn’t stop him from being a proud man though.
The characters are interesting and dynamic, but as someone who's familiar with the events of the end of the Sengoku period, it was a bit annoying that the author just slightly changed the names of characters who were based on real people. Maybe not Mariko (who is clearly Akechi Tama) but Toranaga being Tokugawa was obvious. Maybe the author didn't have historical rights to use the names of the actual people in his historical novel, but it just seemed like a lazy attempt of "alternate history" . Didn't prevent me from enjoying the story but still.
No idea but it’s an interesting point. Glad to hear you enjoyed it.
Its a book written from a western perspective of Japanese experience lol it wont be like Musashi and no one reads it with the expectation that it will.
Reading it soon after that will obviously make it feel less Japanese lol but the plotting and writing is better than Musashi even though its not as detailed about their world.
I didn’t go into it with that expectation nor did I say anyone should. I find it odd that a book ABOUT a westerner going to a foreign place had very little reflection on the places, food, people, clothes, sounds etc etc. When I travel to a new place, these are the first things I notice.
New sub here from Petrik's channel!
Hello! Welcome :)
If he had added the world building elements that you seem to think are so lacking, the book would have been another 1000 pages longer and you wouldn't have read it. It probably wouldn't even have gotten published.
No, you’re wrong. I’m not averse to reading long books at all.
Favourite Character?
Toranaga
Mainly because I’m fascinated by Tokugawa, who he was based on.
"World building" is an interesting criticism. It's in the world. It's isn't fantasy. What world is being built? It's the greatest novel I've ever read. Clavell was a prisoner of the Japanese in a very brutal POW camp and understood the culture very well - as any prisoner would. If you are powerless, you really see through the people with the power.
A real world is built through descriptions of food, people, sounds, smells, clothes etc etc. As I said, this was done exceptionally well in Musashi but barely at all in this book. Of course, this is my opinion.
@@liamryan2056 that’s not the insult you think it is. Well done.
Deserved every bit of the hype.