Is Islamic Banking Really Islamic? An Insider's view with Harris Irfan
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 มิ.ย. 2024
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Muslims worldwide have come to the realisation that the prevailing capitalist economic system does not serve us ethically. With its interest-based banking and casino-style financial instruments, a devout believer has no choice but to attempt to escape its haram, even if that hinders the progress and prosperity of our daily lives. In recent years, Islamic finance has been touted as an ethical alternative. A way to escape the haram riba based economy. Some have even presented it as an alternative to financial capitalism. The rationale behind these products is to accommodate the detailed Shariah rulings on trade and many Islamic scholars have endorsed products that Western financial institutes and governments have embraced.
Our guest this week was an Islamic finance industry insider. Harris Irfan is currently the CEO of Cordoba Capital Markets www.ccmkts.com. He has 29 years of investment banking and consulting experience. He was the former co-founder of Deutsche Bank's world-leading Islamic finance team and CEO of Deutsche's Islamic finance subsidiary. He is the Former Global Head of Islamic Finance at Barclays, and then Head of Investment Banking for the Rasmala group. He is also the author of "Heaven's Bankers: Inside the Hidden World of Islamic Finance", the critically acclaimed best-seller about the Islamic finance industry.
As always, you can comment your thoughts below.
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The Thinking Muslim Podcast Episode 107
00:00 Introduction
02:13 The Makkah Clocktower
07:36 Investment Banks Abuse
09:58 Fractional Reserve Banking
13:48 Halal Banks?
16:43 But Buying a House?
20:43 Regulatory Issues?
22:07 Risk Sharing ?
28:15 So How Do Muslims Invest?
31:10 Islamic Scholars Wrong?
36:23 Scholars Not Economists?
39:00 The Doomsday Fatwa
44:46 Makes Haram Halal
49:32 Governments Passing Laws
51:53 The Goals of the Shariah
57:50 Capitalism
1:01:54 What is Capitalism
1:07:05 Erdogan and the Riba Trap
1:13:07 Brics Currency & Dedolarisation?
Timestamps
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Have recently made a donation. Will do so again soon iA. Making this post publicly to encourage others to donate and to express my support for this great channel. Jazakallah Khair.
@thethinkingmsulim this was a great episode! What I would love to see on this podcast is a deep dive on how muslim economies worked throughout muslim history, under the caliph arslashidun, abasids, ottomans, etc.
Not sure why my previous comment was taken out. Was saying that I went into Cordoba website and tried calling and the number there seems to be a wrong number or not connected or like the robot reply machine stated .
Jazakum Allah khayran.each one listening to this lecture should donate whatever Allah plans as this is one of the most beneficial lectures our Ummah needs nowadays. And for those "laughing" as a good muslim you should research , asks and analyse it's called "ijtihad" in "Fikh" in our religion and we are going all to be asked did we question what have been presented to us or did we just follow as sheeps . That's why Allah gave us brains. Haris Irfan wrote a book" heavens Bankers" I would be really interested to read it
Zakaria
Yahya
Isa
3 invested ,
What is The
Compounded
Interest On that?
2000 Years ago a group of greedy Money changers went to Caesar to accuse an innocent man of being a Terrorist simply because he kicked over their interest ridden trading tables
2000 years later a bunch of greedy bankers have again stolen the holy land and have converted it into a den of thieves
Upon him
Be peace
When he returns
We pray to the Almighty that
His Word, brings A Mighty
S W O R D with him
🤲🏽 Ameen 🤲🏽
As a professional of islamic finance and economy, for more than a decade, and as a certified sharia auditor as well, and as a PhD in speculation and islamic capital markets, I can confirm that almost 97% of what he said is right.
The podcast was really interesting, and I'm very happy to find an english voice for what we've been discussing in arabic and french for more than a decade. This voice needs to be known, and these ideas to be spread as so many understand english.
Financial markets have made so much damage, and fiat money even more.
I know many are wondering what about the 3% (I discuss some of them and others in my channel sometimes btw)
There you go :
- First, fighting fractionnal reserve banking is just moving the main problem one step backward. Even a 100% reserve system, advocated by many islamic finance scholars like Mirakhor, Abbas, Askari... does not solve the main problem, which is fiat money, basically the right for an entity or a group of entities to create money out of thin air. Even in a 100% reserve system, there will stil be a capacity to exponentially grow the monetary mass
- Second, stating that bitcoin is the best money system invented so far and that gold is not accurate is dangerous from many sides. Bitcoin is definitely not based on a riba system althoungh nonce mining can hold a certain degree of gharar, and it is definitely better than ribawi fiat system from a practical point of view. But, During the prophethood, gold and silver were used perfectly even though produced by persians and byzantines. With tokenisation, all gold objections evaporate. Gold is diffused around the world whereas bitcoin protocol can be changed if 51% agree on it. There are tons of bitcoin forks, and other cryptos, all claiming to be the best. BTC is a convention, with NO intrinsic value if machines stop, that may disappear in the next decades as only based on trust. While gold has a real use case in industry and has an intrinsic value and a track record of millenia.
- Finally, and last but not least and maybe the biggest point, capitalism is NOT a good system and NOT compatible with an islamic economic system, due to the fact that profit is the key criteria (no moral boundaries whatsoever, any deviance can become a profitable market), capital the key component (more important than labor, humans) and financial lobbying the key governance tool (politically and in corporations). All these 3 fundamental elements can NOT in any possible way fit in an islamic economic system.
Thanks a lot for the Thinking muslim podcast (this is not a full endorsment, as I'm not aware of other episodes content), but this one is a masterpiece.
PS : It seems he confused fractionnal reserve system and Riba, and it is not exactly the same thing from a structural point of view. Now we can say FRS is done to increase Riba, but the system differs from riba. It an be done also in other ways, like when someone lends you 100 to be cashed out whenever he wants, but in the same time you lend 90 of these 100, this is franctionnal reserve.
والله أعلم
Jazakallah khair brother for your points and the sincerity with which they were made. May Allah accept it from you and all of us.
Thank you brother. I don't have your credentials - just a simple minded mechanical engineer- but the points you made , all of them, are the conclusions I made over the past few years.
I made the same arguments regarding bitcoin and Muslims were the first to oppose me. In an Islamic economy, there isn't a "financial system", there is just the productive economy. And even if you debate the definition of a "financial system", "fiat currency" is haraam IMHO.
Also who says the inventors of Bitcoin can't create additional bitcoin without disclosing it? You could print as much Bitcoin and nobody would ever know about it, as it is not regulated by any state or government.
Also, a strictly limited amount of money does not take into account the increasing amount of people and the economy, therefore it always will go the route of deflation! In a system that uses deflation, investing becomes losing money, and saving becomes making money. You simply shift the problem.
You would need a system that can dynamically evaluate the value of a country or even the world and increase the amount of money, whenever the money deflates!
How does investing become losing money? You seem to think money multiplies by itself and grows instead of supporting productive activities in the economy. The same happens with real currency.
Man have you done a poll on the Ummah for these topics or something?! Super relevant and useful, ماشاءاللہ . Thank you so much!
Jazakallah khair for your support
Exactly my thoughts; diverse topics but extremely relevant to all Muslims. As always, _excellent_
Sheikh Imran husein is the best scholar on this topic
@@singabrewok4771
If you mean the old man that constantly talks about dajjal, then that’s not for me.
@@sammu but you just can't deny he graduate from 2 university on this subject, and you can't challenge him on this subject on money
As salam aleikoum from Russia! The new law on islamic finance in Russia didn't came out of nowhere. It is a result of 20 years of work by Russian muslims and islamic finance companies. We already have islamic financing companies (not banks) that match the Harris's vision in Russia. There are some 100% reserve islamic financial houses, which serve real halal business here in Russia. With the new law, there are more companies joining this market.
I'm so glad there are still honest Moslem men out there it's an honour to listen to you guys
May Allah keep us all steadfast on his deen
Muslim *
That tower is a hideous scar upon the Haram. It’s a vanity project to compete with the London clock tower. It also flies the crescent which has nothing to do with the Qur’an, the Sunnah or the earliest two generations of Believers.
Hmmm
there is evil aura of that crescent. especially at night.
I would like to give you the other view of this project.
I am an architect, and I see it as a new emerging new movement of Islamic skyscrapers and development that assert for the attendance of Islamic learnings in the centrality of Makkah such as endowments as a tool of sustainable finance for operating and maintaining for al haram the grand mosque, rather than finance thourgh tax or prohibited ways ..etc " this the main basis behind this project". Secondly, this project bears the Islamic symbol (helal) and express the meaning of islam throgh recall all people to salat (prayer) five times, and this happen in front of all people muslims and non-muslims, the tower assert to the centrality of the kaaba in the whole of city, and it is a good step for kind of contemporary Islamic urbanism.
In the kingdom, we try to do the best as possible as we can to enhance the holy city, but some of people can’t overtake their toxic thought and conspiracy that they dream.
The very best of the Thinking Muslim podcast. Thank you for what you do!
This is a truly informed conversation on this topic. I learned about the insanity of the fractional reserve banking system back in 2009 and this is the first time I’ve heard it so concisely articulated and from an Islamic perspective. MashaAllah. Appreciate your interviews @TheThinkingMuslim
Sadly, some scholars can't walk away from their pay cheques.
Only God has the power to enrich us from His bounty... yughnihimu Allahu min fadlihi... [Quran chp 24 ver 32]
... waatuhum min mali Allahi... [Quran chp 24 ver 33]
... inna Allaha huwa alghaniyu alhamidu. [Quran chp 31 ver 26].
It's not solely the love for money by scholars. Many (if not, all) have never worked in the corporate world, grafting. This means no matter how much an expert will walk through the various products out there with them, if scholars never had their hands in the paste, they'll simply not appreciate what they're dealing with. It's like explaining to the white, non-Muslim CEO of a large institution about "shariah compliant" products without him being a Muslim and knowing Islamic law. See where I'm coming from?
@@ly1x I see where you are coming from, but how many scholars who have been informed about this problem over the past few years are speaking up about the illusion of "Islamic Finance"?
@@tajudeenbintijani if I'm honest, my observation is that they don't understand the conventional products themselves. If we take Forex as an example,I knew it was not Islamic at all having traded it and knowing the systemic rigged system behind it but back then (2009) scholars were still "looking into" and won't even come out and say that people should stay away from it. To add insult to injury, some brokers even had "Islamic swaps account"! Needless to say these accounts were backed up by fatawa!! How deceptive was that!
I'm a long term listener and dare I say this is in the top three best episodes. This brother has an amazing mind Mashaa Allah and is equally impressive at articulating and communicating his thoughts.
What other episodes do you recommend? I’m a new listener interested in finance
I highly recommend his book, ‘Heaven’s Bankers’. God bless brother
Amazing video! The only point of feedback I would give is that it would be great if you could check the English subtitles regarding certain Arabic concepts. For me as a non-Arabic (and non-English) speaker, I would love to dive more into the topic but I can't really make out the concepts and how to write them unfortunately.
One of the best episodes, thank you for bringing this into debate and waking up the people who are unaware to this subject
Even as a Christian, I support Islamic banking and will start a Christian version that will really help the people who really need money to get their business running without interests.
you need metal (gold or silver) to back the coin or currency.
@@atifrehmanfarooqui3862 Yes, thank you
This man needs to be protected, Harris is walking a very dangerous line here, these banks don't want a competition, look what they did to Libya who tried to move away from fractional reserve banking, History shows anyone who has tried going against fractional reserve banking, has been taken care of. I pray and hope he is successful tho.
Aameen!
Eye opening points on riba n other finance matters.Jazakallah to the speaker n the organisers
Jazakamu Allahu khairan - this interview needs to be uploaded with Arabic subtitles so every Arabic country and Islamic Institutions with Scholars in Finance can invite this young brother. Allah protect you all in teaching the truth.
আলহামদুলিল্লাহ ভালো লাগছে
MashaAllah, very nice conversation!!
This is a great podcast. We always focus on interest (riba) being haram, but what about government money printing (while lowering the interest rates) and flooding the economy with cheap credits and liquidity? Shouldn't it be a haram thing too? It causes high inflation, inequality and poverty.
Undoubtedly a must-watch podcast. Mr. Harris' thoughts on the topic of Islamic Economics are worth listing.
Throughout the podcast, he has been uncompromised in explaining the reality of the current Islamic banking system.
Jazaka-Allah
Jazakhallah khair for such an insightful podcast! Very underrated channel! May Allah swt reward you all, Ameen.
Salam Alikum from Afghanistan, brother please get Shahid Bolsen on your podcast even if he can't be there physically you can do virtual podcast with him. His knowledge and worldview from the Islamic perspective is amazing
Absolutely fascinating, as someone who works in the islamic fiancne industry. He states all my thoughts about it. May Allah help me escape. it.
16:09 loving this. May Allah reward you for explaining this so well
Subway. Thank you for this and all your recent pods.
Love from London.
this episode is quite informing, not only in regards to Islamic banking but to baking and economics as a whole, i think this interview needs to be translated to Arabic , i would like to assets you guys if that was needed
One of the great season I listen to from Harris Irfan, really fantastic
@thethinkingmsulim this was a great episode! What I would love to see on this podcast is a deep dive on how muslim economies worked throughout muslim history, under the calip arashidun, abasids, ottomans, etc
Yes please
Great Podcast thank you ❤
It is not correct to think that a lower interest rate is less evil than a higher one!!
Unless you initiate a new system, reducing the central bank interest rate is nothing to do with Islam!!!!
As an Iranian and a Shia, it was an informative and warm conversation that showed many common issues between Muslims. I think the prisoner's dilemma as a strategy has been running among Islamic countries for years to keep them away from common goals. Especially between oil countries that can play the role of dam in the river trap and transition to a halal economy.
Jazak Allahu khairun. Very educational
One of the most engaging interviews that sheds light on so many issues. Well thought out questions. Congratulations. MashaAllah
this is a fascinating interview thank you so much
Another fascinating discussion. For the sheer quality of its guests and topics it addresses, this channel deserves everyone's support, so please donate and/or share the knowledge of its existence!
People like Harris Irfan have motivated me to get into Islamic Fintech
Salam
Remember it's a lonely battle. But Allah is with the patient ones!
Just make sure you don't reinvent the wheel. Most do exactly that. You'll have to help demolish the dajjalic institution: Bank of England!!!!
Then destroy the metal Commodities cartel! This is over a 700 year catch up. We've been sleeping for that long thanks to:
1) collapse of the khilafa/killing our Islamic economy,,
2) the rise and spread of colonialism crippling our Islamic education, mindset, development,
3) consistent wars and instability in the Muslim world.
This is not being negative. I've been studying this for 10 years and given up my banking career for that, so I know what I'm on about.
I’m ready to learn but don’t know where to start
Same can we connect? Currently completing chartered wealth management title
@@endoferagoat2393salaam, U should also look at other experts like Almir Colan
Subhanallah. This is s a superb discussion!
BarakAllahu Feekum. Very insightful
Sheikh Imran Hossein has been mentioning this for over 20yrs but nobody listened
😅😅😅
Jazakumullahu khaira. I was telling this to lot of scholars but they dont understand this basic.
A v good topic and good and detail explanation Wht I was looking for thank u
thanks keep up the good work
Excellent. Great information. Thank you.
Thanks for the information on finances.😊 .
Plz keep up brother!
Its about time we talked about this. We need these intellectual voices to learn about how the system works. I feel these episodes raise my IQ level. Jazak Allah Khair for all you guys do. May Allah accept our efforts and keep us sincere on the truth
this video answers many of my questions , very valuable
wow, what an amazing podcast! Allahuma Barik
This is very informative
Thank you for this most informative podcast
Mashallah, a very informative podcast, brothers. I find it very benificial when you ask the same question to different guests to get different aspects of an answer, may allah reward you
This is good and interesting discussion, Maachaa Allah 🎉
Thanks for sharing this knowledge with us. Hope in Shaa Allah we can get our own Banking System Going.
BB- USA
The brother was once a proponent of the fractional reserve islamic banking sector but when his knowledge increased then he realized that he was misguided
Now he is a proponent of bitcoin as a halaal currency... May Allah swt increase his knowledge once again. Ameen
Every topic you cover deserve great applause.may allah help get rid of the riba👏
Got it. You mentioned JAK and pointed out that there was a missed discussion on banks, credit creation theory in banking, and the role of banks as financial intermediaries. Additionally, the conversation didn't cover government-issued bonds and bonds issued by companies.
:-) The conversation was a solid introduction to the topic. These cited subject areas all serve to maximise liquidity to apparently advance social material progress fast e.g. consider population growth, post-industrialisation economy in so-called developed countries, advancements in science & technology....but there's a fundamental questions...have these advancements had an overral benefit to the human experience? The mental health epidemic, happiness index would indicate it hasn't.
This was such an eye opener
Im not Muslim. Im interested in conversations as open and thought provoking as this. Human Sensitivity, intelligibility and warm energy such as this , are rarities to savor online or, to encounter in general discourse amongst the general public, in general terms. I intend this genuinely and without demeaning connotation but, I often find many Other online, Muslim youtube channels, to be everything but whats displayed and shared here. This exchange warmed me to the religious aspect of Islam and, reasserted my faith in ‘people, TH-cam people often misrepresent the groups from which they claim to originate or belong to. ..proof that Empty cans often make the most sound (or noise) im grateful for your channel and well informed guest. 🫡🙏🏽☘️
The man is living in imaginary world
Amazing interview
Alhamdulillah. Mr Harris, You make it simple for us to understand Islamic finance. Jazakallah khaira
Alhamdulillah! We don't get to listen to this highly informative video in our native language, I wish We could, that would be very helpful and an eye opener for many. May Allah bless you for giving platform to those who are sacrificing to make the ummah much better from every aspect.
Commendable is an understatement for you.well done thinking muslim.very well done
Incredbly educational. Thank you
MashaAllah this had been educational and eye opening for new & I'm sure fort a lot of Muslims & even non Muslims. We need this discussion distributed further and need a part 2. JazakAllah khairan.
Unfortunately we living in society where every money touched by riba! fractional reserve banking !
Even Bitcoin is not devoid of this corrupted money, for fiat money is exchanged for Bitcoin, and those who have monopolized fiat money can't be prevented from monopolizing bitcoin.
If God wills, we find Islam of Abrahamic Monotheism and Creed, not corrupted Hadiths of Abu Huraira et al. The Quran of God (comprising of His words) informs us of the Sunna of God, and this confirms that nothing is independent of Him, in fact, He is doing everything (it is His words that brings everything into existence).
wakadhalika anzalnahu Quranan Arabiyyan wasarrafna fihi mina alwaidi laallahum yattaquna... [Quran chp 20 ver 113]
wama kana hadha alQuranu an yuftara min duni Allahi... [Quran chp 10 ver 37]
afala yatadabbaruna alQurana walaw kana indi ghayri Allahi lawajadu fihi ikhtilafan kathiran [Quran chp 4 ver 82]
... thumma la yajiduna waliyyan wala nasiran Sunnata Allahi allati qad khalat min qablu walan tajida liSunnati Allahi tabdilan [Quran chp 48 ver 22-23]
... wama ramayta idh ramayta walakinna Allaha rama...[Quran chp 8 ver 17]
Fractional reserve banking doesn't actually exist, unfortunately this brother Irfan isn't correct in his analysis in this regards. Google 'endogenous money theory', this is how banking actually works.
Eye opening. Normally debates focus on the financing part. People neglect on the fractional reserve portion
Interesting conversation. Didn't address the chapter heading "So how do Muslims Invest?", hey-ho I guess.
First its essential to have a stable Islamic nation.
Subscribed
Such a great healthy and informative discussion
fantastic discussion…
This was a really insightful discussion. A much needed one.
I think it's time the writings on the subject of Islamic Finance and Banking are revised. Instead of merely focusing on how to make commercial transactions halaal, Muslim Economists should expand their focus to global financial system, creation of money & debt driven monetary system and the ills of modern capitalism. Once we do that, we would be able to identify the factors on the macro level which truly act as obstacles and hindrances to the achievement of a Real Islamic Economic System.
Right now, focusing on the spirit of an Islamic Economic System is more important than a myopic focus of Halaal-ifying transactions.
Being a Monetary and banking economy graduate and learning about all the systems they use and instruments, I have to decided to avoid working in the financial industry that is mainly related to banks or in banking and even get involved in the financial markets, these instruments that are made either to make the rich more richer or as gambling tools, fraud tools..etc
it's just evil and it's almost impossible to avoid haram working in it or even around it.
They don't teach you, in university, what you need to know in the real world.
Me too bro.. when i study more and more about ideal Islamic Financial System, i realized that the reality of what people called Islamic banking, Islamic Financial instrument today just new kind of capitalism.. or capitalization of Islamic teachings
This is so true. May Allah guide us all
I look forward to see financial graduates like you set up a true Islamic Financial Institution to serve the ummah.
It was informative . Made me think what I'm doing. Perhaps I need something like this to change me .
Wonderful! I didn't know about this brother nor about the Hadith and stories about trading and price management. Islam and especially the companions, tabeeen and tabe tabeeen never fail to amaze me. Truly they were the generations of Allah's favour.
Very informative video. please make more videos on Islamic finance and investing
SubhanAllah! Blessings of Allah be on you both and on the sincere hearted Muslims. Keep it up!
It is a topic that we sought for long time and was confused about. Thank you for sharing this insight.
We need part 2
Very thoughtful and informative session between two brilliant Muslims. I say UAE is joining BRICS as a spy member of the Global North. We appreciate the topics discussed. Please bring back Harris Irfan for discussion on Islamic Independent Financial System.
What an engaging conversation!
I've been exploring the concept of Islamic banks and the more I researched, the more uncertain I became about its Halal status. However, thanks to Haris, my doubts have been cleared. While the Ulema who issued the Fatwa are honest, the banks are misinterpreting it.
I've been curious as to why there isn't a genuine Islamic finance system, so it's uplifting to hear that individuals like Harris are working towards that goal. I'll be praying for your success in creating a truly Islamic financial system.
Harris Irfan is an immense treasure.
Would suggest also listening to Asad Zaman.
Very insightful episode and I could listen to Harris for hours. Please do another podcast with him soon
I have been learning thus topic for a long time, this is the best lecture for islsmic finance ever. Harris is more knowledgeable and honest than so called scholars.
Excellent breakdown from Harris 👏🏼
May Allah bless you. May Allah guide, facilitate and bless your efforts to help the Ummah.
And may Allah reward you for those efforts.
Great podcast 👏
Amazing episode, Jazakullahu Khayran! Please do that episode on bitcoin together
The talk woke me up to reality of things in financial services. Good .
This just show up on my feed!
Jazkhallah khairn very very interesting!
Fantastic I learnt so much thanks
Fascinating discussion on a much relevant topic for us muslim. It's true that us muslim feel a bit lost when looking for a viable and shariah compliant option to finance projects. I do hope that new solutions will arise in the future. Jazak'Allah kheirun for this.
This is such a brilliant discussion and so informative in every way.. well done
Full disclosure I am not a Muslim. I find these podcasts fascinating. Can anyone who knows Islam and finance tell me if there is a difference between loans given out for consumers, such as mortgages, versus loans given out for new businesses in order to create wealth? I’ve kinda understood usury as being something like loaning money out to a person for a nonprofit purpose but then requiring them to pay back more than was given effectively stealing future wealth from them.
It doesn't matter what the end product or function is we cannot engage in riba in any form, given, taking its interest/usuary/riba. Even the witness!
Both are usury. The proper way to grow businesses is for the “lender” to share the risk in case the business fails. But this new name is partner. Basically the only way for the bank to make money is if the business succeeds. This would lead the banks to no longer be reckless at the expense of the misinformed consumer.
The difference and what is prohibited in Islamic law are the "niat" (intention) atau "akad", and it seems that both types of contract are prohibited in Islamic law.
musharaka..everyone is a partner in a bussines project and share the same risk..its a cooperative
Wonderful question and thank you for your support.
Amazing conversation 👍🏻
However, when Haris starts to talk about new green shoots when asked about where to invest, the conversation got steered to Fintech. I am assuming he was about to speak of islamic options of investment which I was interested in. Is it possible to have a short video on that?😇
Amazing!!!!
Another thought provoking episode. Keep up the great work mashaAllah. Jzk
This brothers insights are amazing honestly
This becoming one of the best islamic podcast channels i have ever come across. Very informative conversations and greats guests!
Best Islamic finance video I've ever watched, very insightful
Repeatedly Riba is written as "river" in the sub titles. Was the video released without editing?
Interesting ✨
What a treat to the intellect... particularly later in the discussion when you discuss macro issues