I did not think I would like Iceman very much, I wasn't super excited for him. But after a dozen games or so, I absolutely love playing him. I think you undersold the value of using his cards to stack up frostbites on a villain. In solo, especially, Iceman is very well equipped to tackle stalwart enemies. His Frozen in Ice and a stack of Frostbites can effectively negate two enemy activations, even if the enemy is Stalwart. There were plenty of rounds where I had 2 -3 minions in front of me and a couple in front of other players. I can attack a minion, attach a frostbite, play my thwart event, put another frostbite, and then play Ice Blast and hit every enemy on the board (and his resource generators and cheap generators like Deft Focus and X-Gene make playing several cards a turn pretty easy). By thinking through who you can freeze at various times, Iceman has a lot of decisions to make in how he can impact the board state. It's simpler in Solo where you can effectively lock down the enemy even without stun or confuse. His focus is on full board control. Ice Wall helps all players, not just one, and it throws a Frostbite out for that extra protection when its removed. There is a huge amount of synergy in his kit. I don't think he really wants to play with the aggression cards that trigger on upgrades, though. I think he likes protection and Leadership most (I don't think Aerial builds are super effective, because he does flip sometimes and you might have too many dead cards in hand if Ice Slide isn't in play) - What Doesn't Kill Me is amazing, as is Utopia, as you highlighted. In protection, you can use Indominable or Desperate Defense for lots of extra readies and Frostbite activations, so I think that's his best aspect, personally (he's effectively a 3 defense base stat). Obviously, you are welcome to your opinion, and sometimes we just don't jive well with certain heroes, but he's one of my favorite X-Men to play so far, so I had to give an extra shout-out! :)
I did not think I would like Iceman a great deal, but what a shockingly pleasant surprise he turned out to be for me. I tried various things like leadership and so forth, but went back to aggression as I believe the most effective use for his frostbite ability is not defending, as it's effectively only like adding another point of defence, but attacking and flipping back down to subdue their scheme activation. Being able to recycle in multiple ice cards I found very powerful, and of course Utopia with him is excellent. Overall, he is easily in my top tier of X-Men heroes.
I'm very critical of Ice-Man and was even surprised at how well he was received. I agree with you about your criticism. To me he just seems half-baked, similar to Rogue and Phoenix. A big problem is, that his basic attack on a villain has no real impact on the game. So you waste a basic attack to get 1 less damage or to prevent 1 threat. That's pretty bad. I think your idea, that his ability can be triggered by any basic power and you can then choose freely where to put frostbite, is great. Great video, as always. :)!
I was also surprised by how well received he seemed to be because after a great many games with Iceman I've chilled quite a bit on him. There were very few moments in the games I had where I felt good doing them.
Thanks for the nice feedback! I will say I quite like Rogue but even then I do think there's a certain something in both her DNA and Iceman's that hurts them both. She really wants to put Touched on the villain to get the best use of her events but the coolest uses put it elsewhere leading to a similar kind of awkwardness as Frostbites
Even if you aren't a big fan of the hero the video was lovely as usual. I appreciate the level of analysis, it's not a short video but it doesn't feel bloated because there's plenty of substance.
Thank you! My first every review was for Cable, and that was 54 minutes! My Psylocke review was just over 20 minutes but I got a ton of comments about people enjoying the longer, more in-depth look. Glad to hear the substance is there in this one!
Great review! I felt the same after just a few games. I'm not too hot for this cold killer. However, I feel like there is some potential here, but I think we're missing some key cards that have yet to be released. But for now, getting those frostbites out is something you can't really build around for maximum impact, you kind of just let it happen as you play and it takes the edge off of attacks/thwarts just a little.
Great vid as always. I would love to see your take on an iceman - pool build. There is some fun lil combos for him in the pool aspect plus his alter ego is in the pool.
I thought at the beginning of the video I was going to disagree with you, but as I thought about it, I think you are indeed correct on most points. Now, to be fair, I've only had one solo game and three three player games with him so far. We are in busy season at work, so my gaming for the next 4 months will be way down😢 In solo, I took him up against expert Thanos with Reavers and Inheritors. It was a hard and long game, but was to be expected. That was in Justice. You really notice his weakness at the beginning when you have to thwart that side scheme, and you can't just focus on what you want to do with Iceman. in our three player game we are taking him through Mutant Genesis with Spider-Man and SP//DR. I did protection always ready with What Doesn't Kill Me, Aerial Intervention and a couple Leading Blow to hit the 40, as I'm running campaign and have Combat Training. He's actually been a pretty decent boon there. I ended up dropping repurpose/energy barrier because it brought in too much clunkiness. In zero Tolerance, with -2 or -3 on the Villian and the spiders base defense of 3 or 4 with boost, they can avoid entire attacks, even on Expert. Iceman is either face tanking or blocking with Tough Allies, so it works out well. An awkward situation I've ran into is not having enough feostbites for Ice Blast a couple times. When the Villian is Webbed up and Frozen Solid and eats a Stun, He may start the next round with 4 to 5 Froatbites on him already. Its really fruatrating to get that round you could push 12 damage off the card, but juat don't have the cards lol. He is also quite slow. By the end of my first deck pass, hes carrying pretty well, but does have that slog phase where if you don't really focus on setup it feela you'll fall way behind. I also think I agree on his builds. Probably what, 15 or so of his 25 cards you add in are pre-set, so I think you'll mostly be playing maybe one or two archtypes with him. I actually think his speed of set-up should probably be a 2. Everything else seemed pretty good. While a small sample size, I do think based off the current pool hes still a B tier hero, which is just fine. It will be interesting to see if ai ever want to go back to him. I also think he'll probably hold up better at higher player counts. I originally thought he'd be a great solo character, but I don't think he'll actually shake out that way.
Thanks for the in-depth comment! I hope you find more time for those gaming sessions! He has some really interesting stuff and I hope - whether solo or multiplayer - you do find an avenue in which you enjoy him.
man... this review was Ice Cold.... still, nice to see a new hero that is not an S tier right off the bat, i am a bit sorry that you waited so long for something that you didnt' enjoy that much but on the fun factor i must say I happily disagree :D
Awesome! I'm very happy a lot of people enjoy him. I watched Nelson's review immediately after I posted this and saw he enjoyed Iceman. So that's excellent. He's just not for me it seems!
I've only had Iceman since yesterday so I've only played a couple of games with him, but from that limited experience I agree with your general analysis. I think there are a couple of builds that could work for him that you don't mention. One is the flip-heavy X-Mansion build. Frozen Solid can cancel a scheme activation from the villain, so you have some flexibility for dipping into alter-ego especially against Steady or Stalwart villains. With X-Men Instruction and Mutant Education you can recycle the cards you most want to use, with the latter helping the consistency of Cryokinetic Perception. You also have increased ability to flip down without canceling the villain's activation by directly reducing their Scheme value. That's still a marginal build, and I think X-Men with good access to confuse will still do it better, but it's an option. With all the basic cards you want, you can probably make it work in any aspect though Leadership or Justice are probably the strongest. The other is Protection but leaning on the damage reducing events rather than the ones that help your basic defense. Defiance, Jump Flip, Preemptive Strike, and Side Step will all help you reduce incoming damage, and with What Doesn't Kill Me you can heal up some of the damage that slips through and also ready yourself. Defending this way will still trigger Electrostatic Armor, and if you reduce damage to zero you can still use the perfect defense triggered upgrades. This is the build I'm going to try right now. We'll see how it works!
I'm curious to hear your results! Regarding the first plan, Frostbite already allows you some easy alter-ego access so, while Frozen Solid is of course useful, I'm still not quite sold it's *that* useful. And Iceman's alter-ego largely already does what Mutant Education does, so I don't know if Iceman - quite a slow-paced hero - wants to worry about it taking up deck space and the slowness of X-Mansion. I do think it will work, but I am a little skeptical it will work better than what I covered. But I'd be very happy to be wrong. Sadly I covered a lot more different cards and interesting uses with Iceman in my preview video for him, and in the end they largely weren't strong enough to earn their space in his X-Men heavy decks. The Protection one is fun, I already love What Doesn't Kill me with his Frostbites. I don't dislike Perfect Defense in 3-4 player for him even if it's not my preference so I do think this one will work too. But I am skeptical on it in solo and 2-player compared to other builds. But perhaps the fun is worth it!
@@VillainTheory I think you're right about the flippy deck. X-Men Instruction will help a bit by allowing you to recycle your favorite allies, but that too wants the X-Mansion which slows things down. I tried a deck using the other defense events, and it worked fairly well. Jump Flip allows you to remove some threat, and between Electrostatic Armor and Flow Like Water a Side Step hits for three damage which is respectable. Not needing to exhaust to defend is useful as you'll more often have your basic attack, maybe even two or three times between Cryokinetic Perception and Utopia. But it's still not a strong deck. I think it works better than perfect defense in solo against most villains, but Iceman still feels a bit weak. Maybe Under Control and Change of Fortune from Nightcrawler will help? I suspect we're going to see more cards that trigger off of Upgrades on enemies, especially since Nightcrawler also uses them. That could help a bit, or more than a bit if they're strong cards. I don't think an upgrade that keys off of this is impossible.
After testing I found just about the same. My current best Iceman deck I call "Gray Ice" because it's all basics with 3 copies of What Doesn't Kill Me. His strength is against Stalwart villains. Between Ice Wall, Frozen Solid, and frostbites you can control the villain. Just make sure you have a plan to handle threat! His weakest attribute is def thwarting.
Honestly that's pretty much the optimal Protection deck for him I fear, give or take maybe a couple of other cards. Agreed on that weak thwarting overall.
Honestly, Iceman got me digging out my cards and playing again. I've been caught up, but didn't immediately jump to Age of Apocalypse until I knew Iceman was out and I could go and pick him up. I think he's a lot of fun, even if I'm still sorting out the decklist I've been playing, as I'm not sure the Aspect (Justice) is the correct one. It seems like it's more along the lines of people riding the popularity wave of Upside the Head. I'm curious to see what the rest of the wave will bring, as there's usually ideas that get expanded upon in the waves.
Good timing! I was just going through the comments. I'm glad some people enjoy him, he has a lot of cool upsides and unique ideas I do really like. Just a lot of things that slightly frustrate me. Ultimately, to me, he's fine. But fine doesn't hit my table with over 40 other heroes I really like. But maybe that will change over time! New cards could definitely help. Speaking of upsides, I do think Upside the Head is extremely good for him. He is motivated to basic ATK the villain more than most other heroes in the game, and Upside is very cheap for a confuse, so it works our perfectly. He also likes cheap cards and Upside is cheap. I don't think I mentioned it exactly but confusing the villain stops Frostbites falling off, so you can get more use from his alter-ego ability that way too. But I hope you find a more satisfying deck!
I'm in the same boat as you. I haven't been impressed with him so far. He does feel clunky partly because his kit is so expensive and it's hard to smooth out his economy even with adding in some help. He has some bright spots on some rounds, but it usually costs his whole hand and you've shot from both barrels so to speak with nothing left to do like Ice Wall. I feel like he may be better in multiplayer than solo. I haven't tried him in Protection yet, and I'm wondering if he works better there with the ability to ready up more in that aspect. I find that a lot of turns defending he doesn't get the ready with his Cryokinetic Perception which feels unsatisfying. I wish Ice Slide cost 1 instead of 2 as well. Probably the most satisfying moment I had with him was punching out the dragon in the Mojo Fantasy set for 12 with Arctic Attack and a Frostbite attached.
I've played him mostly in multiplayer if I'm honest. A couple of 3-4 player and a lot of 2-player. I'm not quite sold but it definitely helps cover his threat removal and Cyclops combos nicely with his Frostbites!
In solo, he's okay. But in multiplayer he gets better with more players. With 3 players, that's basically 3 damage prevention or 6 if he has 2 Frostbites on the enemy.
This review is spot on. I agree with all of your premises but I do disagree with some conclusions. You bump his thwart up to 2 stars. I think hes a 1 star. His event is not great compared to most other heroes. And as you said, he is punished for basic thwarting. Then overall you have him at 34, I think he's lower. Expensive cards, lower end economy, and his whole thing is more about not losing, which he doesn't even do that well compared to other heroes with the same strategy.
I do think having 3 thwarting cards and the ability to get him to 2 THW does put his thwarting at a level above say Hulk, Spider-Man Peter Parker and Colossus, who I've put at 1/5 in other videos. But his thwarting is still poor and feels bad. I also agree with everything else you're saying really. But he has the X-Men and Mutant traits and, if you build for power, I think they carry him hard. Without factoring those in I think he's a good bit lower
All sounds pretty good to me. Great Dive! I ran a 3x TBE deck with about 8, 9? allies (mostly base 2 cost) with Uncanny & Team Training - pretty std X-men deck these days. But he gets the best out of multiple TBE's. Those 2x Clones at 2cost X-men really help just "spamming" the field. IMO, Clones are totally expendable - 1st, put your Frostbite where you need it (sure, typically villain), not just where they need to take 0CD! 2nd, have them attack where ever they need to deal damage. Don't care if villain has retaliate either, the 0CD attack is just "*icing* on the cake" (I'll see myself out) should it be available. They are cheap & come back as another target for a TBE & trigger Utopia, maybe even CryoPer! Sure, they can even block if you need the other allies for more thwarting. I had no issue going to 3x TBE "in Leadership" (prob 2TBE in other aspects because you only get a -1 discount on allies not -2), with those discounts on the great cheap X-men & his Ice stuff too. Totally agree, his (sole?) tactic is pretty much "I punch Villain, ready-up"...repeat - this will "eventually" have an impact/win the game. Oh, X-men friends, do your stuff - which they are so good at! Deck gets down to allies/ICE only cycling and pretty quickly - I think I jammed nearly a dozen (effective) generators in the deck. That engine REALLY starts to take off and compound on itself. I think that's where the "cost vs return" of his cards rises due to existing environment that he drops into. "Super-power", "Ice", "X-men/mutant". Then CryoPer is better than 60% ('cause cycling clones are also "Ice") so getting close but not quite "reliable". But you win that turn anyways!
Sounds powerful! I do think the standard X-Men Leadership swarm schtick is best for him. My only real counter to this is that any hero that takes the time to set up and thin out their deck generally becomes very strong. And I would wager every other X-Men hero running a similar build (minus some TBEs) would do this but better.
Great vid, enjoyed your insights! I’d love if you and Nelson did a video together to discuss from your opposing opinions! I know that would be fun and interesting!
I don’t have him yet but having watched his gameplay. feel like his snow clones are missing the ability to apply frostbite. Something like attacks applies frostbite, if it already has frostbite take -1 consequential damage. Or frostbite response when defeated. When I initially saw iceman, I thought maybe an upgrade if you pay for an event with an ice card(exhaust?) apply frostbite to an enemy would be cool or like arachnobatics dmg per frostbite on enemy. Dunno but I agree with you his frostbite synergy isn’t there. Freeze only trigger with attacking/ready(utopia) doesn’t feel great for me. Great video.
Having the clones do more with Frostbite would be fun! And the Arachnobatics idea is great too. I was thinking yesterday that Frozen Solid getting a reduced cost per Frostbites on the target would be excellent.
I'm more positive about him but agree with your points. I think his whole dynamic would have changed if his ability was a response instead of interrupt. This would greatly change the flow of how he puts out frost bites and increase his feel of being a support hero. As is though, he's fine.
Since Iceman is such a slow hero and he needs some build up, is he like a snowball? You have to start off small, but after a while he becomes a huge powerhouse? (I mostly asked for the pun, but an honest question as well.)
Unfortunately not! He starts off slightly slow and, while he can improve greatly, he won't hit the lofty heights of the real slow-starters like Iron Man, Quicksilver or Ironheart.
I haven't managed to get my hands on it yet, as UK is always behind... but he seems very underwhelming, probably because of the hype he received when he was announced. Still, for an Omega level Mutant, you would expect more. From what I see, he will probably works best in Protection and Leadership. Leadership as it is ridiculously strong in general, so you don't even care about Iceman's kit as much, and your kit is supporting the aspect, than the other way around. Protection as you can build perfect defense with loads of ready and Taunt, but it will be a bit of a slow setup. It is definitely best suited for multiplayer. I can see Iceman played alongside Cyclops a lot and any hero with low HP pool and bad survivability to protect them, so the other hero can do what they do best and not worry they might die. Or a hero who relies heavily on their Alter-Ego actions, so the hero can flip more consistently without too much scheming from the Villain and Minions. I don't think I will enjoy it in solo games, as he is obviously not solo games oriented. Once I got my hands on Iceman, first think I will do is play him in Protection alongside Ms. Marvel Aggression, as she loves her Alter-Ego actions, and I won't have to exhaust her to keep Wiggle Room in my hand.
Cyclops and Iceman are a fantastic pairing. I'm not convinced you'll find too much success with Taunt Iceman but it could be fun to try! I'm hoping it's over here and available for everyone soon.
All your criticism is well constructed, but I just find I enjoy playing him way more than I would expect, and find him way more powerful than this video would suggest. I think the villain control aspect is great, such that he is really consistent but maybe he will get boring due to having the same basic package in n every deck.
Hey that's amazing! I'm happy you enjoy him and glad you're getting the results! I will say I do think he's very effective, but I think that for most heroes in the game now. Being in the lower half for power doesn't mean a hero isn't actually still quite powerful. I'm not sure I made that clear enough in the video.
Iceman is my favourite Marvel character so I'm pretty disappointed that he sounds pretty rough. I'm really hoping that Nightcrawler (who has a similar thing with Frostbite in Bamf) includes some kind of basic card which can enable this upgrade attaching playstyle
Keep in mind that this is just my opinion, I believe Nelson for example really likes Iceman! So I would simply say I hope you're not too disheartened - you might really love playing Iceman! And I'm pleased to say that, while Bamf will definitely have conflicting priorities, I think it will be on more of a fun decision-making way overall. I'm still very very excited for Nightcrawler.
@@VillainTheory I'm also really excited for Nightcrawler. I'm really hoping he comes with a card like you suggested with moving around attached upgrades since it could be used with Iceman and Cyclops.
Nightcrawler also uses a key signature upgrade which he attaches to enemies basically every turn, so I agree there's a really good chance of it. Let's see!
He just takes too long to get going. There are too many pieces that I felt were essential to his kit and not enough time to play them. I've only tried him in protection and aggression but so far I'm not impressed.
He does better in Leadership, Clarity of Purpose can help alongside just powerful X-Men stuff, but I feel like Protection and Aggression suit him better as a whole. Leadeship is just stronger. But your mileage may vary! Worth trying at any rate!
At least Iceman's aggression cards made Rogue and Valkyrie a lot more fun! I'm mainly waiting for Nightcrawler at this point. Iceman was a bit disappointing and I'm also not super hyped for Jubilee. Hopefully the final hero is Magneto and he's amazing.
They're fun! I think Beak is a little too good for X-Men decks but honestly I kind of like him on the 1 THW heroes in solo play, I'll take all the help I can get. Love the Sauron modular too.
I'm also fairly disappointed with Iceman. I love this character, and on paper his kit sounded really cool, but in practice I haven't found it particularly fun.
Perhaps Nightcrawler or that mysterious final hero are hiding a couple of aspect/basic cards that will give him a boost and help things click. Once upon a time I didn't like Rocket, then a couple expansions later? Repurpose happened...
I will agree Iceman is not the strongest hero but I've been having a blast playing him with mutant protectors you basically want to keep a frostbitten or pinned down minion around then when you play protectors you get a fully healthy ally sometimes at a discount and if hanger bays out they're even ready on your turn too it's not super reliable but it is fun lol Also I think running unflappable in easier scenarios along with cryogenic can result in drawing two cards every villain phase which feels pretty cool 😅
He is definitely "meh" for me. His cards are too expensive. And why, oh why, does he have to lose Ice Slide when he goes to alter ego. The upgrades should be 1 cost. Ice Blast can be fun to play but it is a situational card.
I don’t know why I don’t have anything against Iceman. Don’t necessarily disagree with any specific point, but I’ve found him pretty effective in each aspect🤷♂️
That's fair! I don't necessarily think he's ineffective, 34/52 honestly puts him among many strong, viable heroes. "Clunky and Frostbites don't feel rewarding" is how I'd sum up my biggest issues.
@@VillainTheory slow because of work, but better than expected, and I find these heroes complement each other well. Also, I find them more fun that Spiderham… for some reason when I played SM campaign, Spiderham felt weirdly boring for me…
I don't know, you talk here like it's a problem that he is a B tier hero, do we need every new hero in A tier now? WebWarriorFanatic beat with him Ronan on Expert without rush tactic, control style, from that perspective he crush on Expert, not just Standard. I would place him probably higher on tier list (like in Nelson's list).
Oh for sure, I've fought Venom Goblin with him as another example. Pretty much all the heroes around where I ranked him (34th) can do that in my opinion with today's card pool. Especially if you lean into Leadership which I am just assuming Web-Warrior did. Most heroes are very strong and capable these days that even the ones in the lower 50% crush most villains if you really go for it. I say at the end of the video that my problem isn't his power. For me, the problem is I find many of his cards and style frustrating and clunky.
@@VillainTheory Thanks for reply, I get it, clunkiness is indeed a factor here. Btw. WebWarrior did it in Protection, but it was still mostly based on this Utopia gimmick.
@@TAC3O Oh nice! I suspect it might go even better in Leadership but that's awesome. P.S. We asked your question on the podcast, keep an eye out for it!
This question has nothing to do with ice man. (Loved the video though).. looking at another FFG game. Arkham and LOTR keep popping up. But then I saw a game of thrones one that had high reviews. Have you played any of these?
I've not played the Game of Thrones one, I gather it's a little older. But I've played 3 games of Lord of the Rings and lots and lots of Arkham! I really like Arkham.The core set is good but worse than Marvel Champions, and the first expansion is great but not quite Rise of Red Skull (though I do still recommend it), and then practically everything is excellent. I've got about 5 expansions at this point! It's part card game with some similar parts to Marvel, part board game with different locations out in front of you, and part RPG with strong story elements and "dice rolls" (tokens pulled from a bag).
100% agreed, he's very disappointing, the game loop is a bit broken (in a bad way) and only a few decks are viable... :/ Too bad, I'll wait for nightcrawler :p
It’s kind of refreshing to hear a less positive review for once. And I don’t really see it as a knock on the designers (who have consistently done a phenomenal job). It’s hard to bat 1.000 when designing so many hero expansions and I doubt there are many/any heroes that are universally loved by everyone. The versatility of gameplay each hero brings is part of what makes the game so good. I’m tempted to buy the pack still just for the aspect cards. Some of the new aggression cards look like they could be good for Valkyrie but I haven’t seen many decklists using them for her on MarvelDB. Any thoughts on the value of the new aspect cards for old heroes?
The designers do an amazing job! It's definitely not meant as a knock against them. But at the same time, a review is a review and Bobby is on thin ice with me... So unfortunately most of what I said in my preview video about the new Aggression cards came true. Overall they're not very good for Valkyrie. There was/is a popular sentiment that because the new cards interact with upgrades they are going to be good for the heroes that put upgrades onto enemies, but this is not strictly the case. Suppressing Fire is kinda interesting on Cyclops, Surprise Move isn't bad on Rogue, but none of it is a game-changer. The best gains here, in my opinion, are all four of the allies. Shark-Girl and Glob ARE really good for Cyclops and Rogue especially. Shadowcat is a good basic X-Men ally to have. Beak is effectively an "S-tier" basic ally that even non X-Men are going to want (notably in solo Aggression and Protection). And then I also quite like the player side scheme and the Sauron modular set, though neither are a must-have. (Though the side scheme is great for Cable.)
I think you're a bit harsh on Bobby overall. He's not the best hero around (I would place him at or maybe just above average), but he has some incredible tools to deal with stalwart villains, which are becoming more and more common. I do agree that a lot of his decks look pretty same-y, but you can say the same thing about Domino, Cable, Angel, Psylocke, Bishop, and Magik. Not to mention all the prior X-Men, who all want the same collection of basic supports. I took him through the last three battles of GMW on standard in Protection, and he breezed through it without any real problems. I had What Doesn't Kill Me, X-Men allies, and Utopia, and there were rarely turns I didn't have a ready on board, whether it be hitting an ice card on the draw, Desperate Defense, or an ally. I had to flip down to AE exactly twice across those three and one other game with Bobby. Sometimes I even left the obligation out because I didn't need to get rid of it. Overall, he's very slow, but incredibly resilient. Maybe the most resilient hero we have outside of Kitty.
I didn't put him too far away from average overall! I agree that he's resilient, and honestly a well-built deck like that for heroes around where I put him at 34th/52nd should do really well! There's only 8 or so heroes I think actually can struggle and that's mostly at lower player counts. So I don't think he's weak as such when you lean into Utopia and all the best X-Men allies, he's very viable, but he has a lot of feel-bad stuff and clunkiness. But I am glad you like him and that others do too! He's just not for me. I'll probably shelf him for now and revisit him a couple months down the line with fresh eyes - and maybe new cards. And see if I change my mind!
I did not think I would like Iceman very much, I wasn't super excited for him. But after a dozen games or so, I absolutely love playing him. I think you undersold the value of using his cards to stack up frostbites on a villain. In solo, especially, Iceman is very well equipped to tackle stalwart enemies. His Frozen in Ice and a stack of Frostbites can effectively negate two enemy activations, even if the enemy is Stalwart. There were plenty of rounds where I had 2 -3 minions in front of me and a couple in front of other players. I can attack a minion, attach a frostbite, play my thwart event, put another frostbite, and then play Ice Blast and hit every enemy on the board (and his resource generators and cheap generators like Deft Focus and X-Gene make playing several cards a turn pretty easy). By thinking through who you can freeze at various times, Iceman has a lot of decisions to make in how he can impact the board state. It's simpler in Solo where you can effectively lock down the enemy even without stun or confuse. His focus is on full board control. Ice Wall helps all players, not just one, and it throws a Frostbite out for that extra protection when its removed. There is a huge amount of synergy in his kit. I don't think he really wants to play with the aggression cards that trigger on upgrades, though. I think he likes protection and Leadership most (I don't think Aerial builds are super effective, because he does flip sometimes and you might have too many dead cards in hand if Ice Slide isn't in play) - What Doesn't Kill Me is amazing, as is Utopia, as you highlighted. In protection, you can use Indominable or Desperate Defense for lots of extra readies and Frostbite activations, so I think that's his best aspect, personally (he's effectively a 3 defense base stat). Obviously, you are welcome to your opinion, and sometimes we just don't jive well with certain heroes, but he's one of my favorite X-Men to play so far, so I had to give an extra shout-out! :)
I did not think I would like Iceman a great deal, but what a shockingly pleasant surprise he turned out to be for me. I tried various things like leadership and so forth, but went back to aggression as I believe the most effective use for his frostbite ability is not defending, as it's effectively only like adding another point of defence, but attacking and flipping back down to subdue their scheme activation. Being able to recycle in multiple ice cards I found very powerful, and of course Utopia with him is excellent. Overall, he is easily in my top tier of X-Men heroes.
VT, just wanted to say that your powers of explanation of why things work/don't work in a hero kit are S-tier!
Haha, thank you!
I'm very critical of Ice-Man and was even surprised at how well he was received. I agree with you about your criticism.
To me he just seems half-baked, similar to Rogue and Phoenix.
A big problem is, that his basic attack on a villain has no real impact on the game. So you waste a basic attack to get 1 less damage or to prevent 1 threat. That's pretty bad.
I think your idea, that his ability can be triggered by any basic power and you can then choose freely where to put frostbite, is great.
Great video, as always. :)!
I was also surprised by how well received he seemed to be because after a great many games with Iceman I've chilled quite a bit on him. There were very few moments in the games I had where I felt good doing them.
Thanks for the nice feedback! I will say I quite like Rogue but even then I do think there's a certain something in both her DNA and Iceman's that hurts them both. She really wants to put Touched on the villain to get the best use of her events but the coolest uses put it elsewhere leading to a similar kind of awkwardness as Frostbites
At 13:07 did you say "Just Ice Served?". Perfect! 😂
I thought it was a cool pun 😁
Absolutely. I now expect a 99 flake with every basic action!
Also Ice-Gene at 30:05!
Excellent breakdown!! Thank you ❤
You're welcome!
Even if you aren't a big fan of the hero the video was lovely as usual. I appreciate the level of analysis, it's not a short video but it doesn't feel bloated because there's plenty of substance.
Thank you! My first every review was for Cable, and that was 54 minutes! My Psylocke review was just over 20 minutes but I got a ton of comments about people enjoying the longer, more in-depth look. Glad to hear the substance is there in this one!
Love this deep dive! I can just continue to pick up add ons. And eventually get round to picking up Iceman. Still need some of the S-tier heroes.
Iceman is still fun and I like a lot of the aspect/basic stuff he has, and the mod set. But he is definitely not a priority purchase.
@@VillainTheory I've been meaning to pick up Storm and Cyclops. But have gone wild getting cards for commander in Magic the Gathering. 🤣
Great review! I felt the same after just a few games. I'm not too hot for this cold killer. However, I feel like there is some potential here, but I think we're missing some key cards that have yet to be released. But for now, getting those frostbites out is something you can't really build around for maximum impact, you kind of just let it happen as you play and it takes the edge off of attacks/thwarts just a little.
Thanks! I do hope we get something to just make his gameplay feel better.
Great vid as always.
I would love to see your take on an iceman - pool build.
There is some fun lil combos for him in the pool aspect plus his alter ego is in the pool.
I really like Iceman 'Pool, though I don't think my builds are very different from those already on MCDB.
I thought at the beginning of the video I was going to disagree with you, but as I thought about it, I think you are indeed correct on most points.
Now, to be fair, I've only had one solo game and three three player games with him so far. We are in busy season at work, so my gaming for the next 4 months will be way down😢
In solo, I took him up against expert Thanos with Reavers and Inheritors. It was a hard and long game, but was to be expected. That was in Justice. You really notice his weakness at the beginning when you have to thwart that side scheme, and you can't just focus on what you want to do with Iceman.
in our three player game we are taking him through Mutant Genesis with Spider-Man and SP//DR. I did protection always ready with What Doesn't Kill Me, Aerial Intervention and a couple Leading Blow to hit the 40, as I'm running campaign and have Combat Training. He's actually been a pretty decent boon there. I ended up dropping repurpose/energy barrier because it brought in too much clunkiness. In zero Tolerance, with -2 or -3 on the Villian and the spiders base defense of 3 or 4 with boost, they can avoid entire attacks, even on Expert. Iceman is either face tanking or blocking with Tough Allies, so it works out well.
An awkward situation I've ran into is not having enough feostbites for Ice Blast a couple times. When the Villian is Webbed up and Frozen Solid and eats a Stun, He may start the next round with 4 to 5 Froatbites on him already. Its really fruatrating to get that round you could push 12 damage off the card, but juat don't have the cards lol.
He is also quite slow. By the end of my first deck pass, hes carrying pretty well, but does have that slog phase where if you don't really focus on setup it feela you'll fall way behind.
I also think I agree on his builds. Probably what, 15 or so of his 25 cards you add in are pre-set, so I think you'll mostly be playing maybe one or two archtypes with him.
I actually think his speed of set-up should probably be a 2. Everything else seemed pretty good.
While a small sample size, I do think based off the current pool hes still a B tier hero, which is just fine.
It will be interesting to see if ai ever want to go back to him.
I also think he'll probably hold up better at higher player counts. I originally thought he'd be a great solo character, but I don't think he'll actually shake out that way.
Thanks for the in-depth comment! I hope you find more time for those gaming sessions! He has some really interesting stuff and I hope - whether solo or multiplayer - you do find an avenue in which you enjoy him.
man... this review was Ice Cold.... still, nice to see a new hero that is not an S tier right off the bat, i am a bit sorry that you waited so long for something that you didnt' enjoy that much but on the fun factor i must say I happily disagree :D
Awesome! I'm very happy a lot of people enjoy him. I watched Nelson's review immediately after I posted this and saw he enjoyed Iceman. So that's excellent. He's just not for me it seems!
I've only had Iceman since yesterday so I've only played a couple of games with him, but from that limited experience I agree with your general analysis.
I think there are a couple of builds that could work for him that you don't mention.
One is the flip-heavy X-Mansion build. Frozen Solid can cancel a scheme activation from the villain, so you have some flexibility for dipping into alter-ego especially against Steady or Stalwart villains. With X-Men Instruction and Mutant Education you can recycle the cards you most want to use, with the latter helping the consistency of Cryokinetic Perception. You also have increased ability to flip down without canceling the villain's activation by directly reducing their Scheme value.
That's still a marginal build, and I think X-Men with good access to confuse will still do it better, but it's an option. With all the basic cards you want, you can probably make it work in any aspect though Leadership or Justice are probably the strongest.
The other is Protection but leaning on the damage reducing events rather than the ones that help your basic defense. Defiance, Jump Flip, Preemptive Strike, and Side Step will all help you reduce incoming damage, and with What Doesn't Kill Me you can heal up some of the damage that slips through and also ready yourself. Defending this way will still trigger Electrostatic Armor, and if you reduce damage to zero you can still use the perfect defense triggered upgrades.
This is the build I'm going to try right now. We'll see how it works!
I'm curious to hear your results!
Regarding the first plan, Frostbite already allows you some easy alter-ego access so, while Frozen Solid is of course useful, I'm still not quite sold it's *that* useful. And Iceman's alter-ego largely already does what Mutant Education does, so I don't know if Iceman - quite a slow-paced hero - wants to worry about it taking up deck space and the slowness of X-Mansion.
I do think it will work, but I am a little skeptical it will work better than what I covered. But I'd be very happy to be wrong.
Sadly I covered a lot more different cards and interesting uses with Iceman in my preview video for him, and in the end they largely weren't strong enough to earn their space in his X-Men heavy decks.
The Protection one is fun, I already love What Doesn't Kill me with his Frostbites. I don't dislike Perfect Defense in 3-4 player for him even if it's not my preference so I do think this one will work too. But I am skeptical on it in solo and 2-player compared to other builds. But perhaps the fun is worth it!
@@VillainTheory I think you're right about the flippy deck. X-Men Instruction will help a bit by allowing you to recycle your favorite allies, but that too wants the X-Mansion which slows things down.
I tried a deck using the other defense events, and it worked fairly well. Jump Flip allows you to remove some threat, and between Electrostatic Armor and Flow Like Water a Side Step hits for three damage which is respectable. Not needing to exhaust to defend is useful as you'll more often have your basic attack, maybe even two or three times between Cryokinetic Perception and Utopia.
But it's still not a strong deck. I think it works better than perfect defense in solo against most villains, but Iceman still feels a bit weak. Maybe Under Control and Change of Fortune from Nightcrawler will help?
I suspect we're going to see more cards that trigger off of Upgrades on enemies, especially since Nightcrawler also uses them. That could help a bit, or more than a bit if they're strong cards. I don't think an upgrade that keys off of this is impossible.
After testing I found just about the same. My current best Iceman deck I call "Gray Ice" because it's all basics with 3 copies of What Doesn't Kill Me. His strength is against Stalwart villains. Between Ice Wall, Frozen Solid, and frostbites you can control the villain. Just make sure you have a plan to handle threat! His weakest attribute is def thwarting.
Honestly that's pretty much the optimal Protection deck for him I fear, give or take maybe a couple of other cards. Agreed on that weak thwarting overall.
Honestly, Iceman got me digging out my cards and playing again. I've been caught up, but didn't immediately jump to Age of Apocalypse until I knew Iceman was out and I could go and pick him up. I think he's a lot of fun, even if I'm still sorting out the decklist I've been playing, as I'm not sure the Aspect (Justice) is the correct one. It seems like it's more along the lines of people riding the popularity wave of Upside the Head. I'm curious to see what the rest of the wave will bring, as there's usually ideas that get expanded upon in the waves.
Good timing! I was just going through the comments.
I'm glad some people enjoy him, he has a lot of cool upsides and unique ideas I do really like. Just a lot of things that slightly frustrate me. Ultimately, to me, he's fine. But fine doesn't hit my table with over 40 other heroes I really like. But maybe that will change over time! New cards could definitely help.
Speaking of upsides, I do think Upside the Head is extremely good for him. He is motivated to basic ATK the villain more than most other heroes in the game, and Upside is very cheap for a confuse, so it works our perfectly. He also likes cheap cards and Upside is cheap. I don't think I mentioned it exactly but confusing the villain stops Frostbites falling off, so you can get more use from his alter-ego ability that way too. But I hope you find a more satisfying deck!
I'm in the same boat as you. I haven't been impressed with him so far. He does feel clunky partly because his kit is so expensive and it's hard to smooth out his economy even with adding in some help. He has some bright spots on some rounds, but it usually costs his whole hand and you've shot from both barrels so to speak with nothing left to do like Ice Wall. I feel like he may be better in multiplayer than solo. I haven't tried him in Protection yet, and I'm wondering if he works better there with the ability to ready up more in that aspect. I find that a lot of turns defending he doesn't get the ready with his Cryokinetic Perception which feels unsatisfying. I wish Ice Slide cost 1 instead of 2 as well. Probably the most satisfying moment I had with him was punching out the dragon in the Mojo Fantasy set for 12 with Arctic Attack and a Frostbite attached.
I've played him mostly in multiplayer if I'm honest. A couple of 3-4 player and a lot of 2-player. I'm not quite sold but it definitely helps cover his threat removal and Cyclops combos nicely with his Frostbites!
In solo, he's okay. But in multiplayer he gets better with more players. With 3 players, that's basically 3 damage prevention or 6 if he has 2 Frostbites on the enemy.
Unfortunately Frostbite falls off after one activation. So Frostbite is always -1 ATK or SCH, never any more.
@@VillainTheory Ah, my bad. Thanks for reminding! At least you can stack multiple which is something.
This review is spot on. I agree with all of your premises but I do disagree with some conclusions. You bump his thwart up to 2 stars. I think hes a 1 star. His event is not great compared to most other heroes. And as you said, he is punished for basic thwarting. Then overall you have him at 34, I think he's lower. Expensive cards, lower end economy, and his whole thing is more about not losing, which he doesn't even do that well compared to other heroes with the same strategy.
I do think having 3 thwarting cards and the ability to get him to 2 THW does put his thwarting at a level above say Hulk, Spider-Man Peter Parker and Colossus, who I've put at 1/5 in other videos. But his thwarting is still poor and feels bad.
I also agree with everything else you're saying really. But he has the X-Men and Mutant traits and, if you build for power, I think they carry him hard. Without factoring those in I think he's a good bit lower
All sounds pretty good to me. Great Dive!
I ran a 3x TBE deck with about 8, 9? allies (mostly base 2 cost) with Uncanny & Team Training - pretty std X-men deck these days. But he gets the best out of multiple TBE's. Those 2x Clones at 2cost X-men really help just "spamming" the field.
IMO, Clones are totally expendable - 1st, put your Frostbite where you need it (sure, typically villain), not just where they need to take 0CD! 2nd, have them attack where ever they need to deal damage. Don't care if villain has retaliate either, the 0CD attack is just "*icing* on the cake" (I'll see myself out) should it be available. They are cheap & come back as another target for a TBE & trigger Utopia, maybe even CryoPer! Sure, they can even block if you need the other allies for more thwarting.
I had no issue going to 3x TBE "in Leadership" (prob 2TBE in other aspects because you only get a -1 discount on allies not -2), with those discounts on the great cheap X-men & his Ice stuff too.
Totally agree, his (sole?) tactic is pretty much "I punch Villain, ready-up"...repeat - this will "eventually" have an impact/win the game. Oh, X-men friends, do your stuff - which they are so good at!
Deck gets down to allies/ICE only cycling and pretty quickly - I think I jammed nearly a dozen (effective) generators in the deck. That engine REALLY starts to take off and compound on itself. I think that's where the "cost vs return" of his cards rises due to existing environment that he drops into. "Super-power", "Ice", "X-men/mutant".
Then CryoPer is better than 60% ('cause cycling clones are also "Ice") so getting close but not quite "reliable". But you win that turn anyways!
Sounds powerful! I do think the standard X-Men Leadership swarm schtick is best for him. My only real counter to this is that any hero that takes the time to set up and thin out their deck generally becomes very strong. And I would wager every other X-Men hero running a similar build (minus some TBEs) would do this but better.
Great vid, enjoyed your insights! I’d love if you and Nelson did a video together to discuss from your opposing opinions! I know that would be fun and interesting!
Great suggestion! That could be pretty funny
I don’t have him yet but having watched his gameplay. feel like his snow clones are missing the ability to apply frostbite. Something like attacks applies frostbite, if it already has frostbite take -1 consequential damage. Or frostbite response when defeated.
When I initially saw iceman, I thought maybe an upgrade if you pay for an event with an ice card(exhaust?) apply frostbite to an enemy would be cool or like arachnobatics dmg per frostbite on enemy.
Dunno but I agree with you his frostbite synergy isn’t there. Freeze only trigger with attacking/ready(utopia) doesn’t feel great for me. Great video.
Having the clones do more with Frostbite would be fun! And the Arachnobatics idea is great too. I was thinking yesterday that Frozen Solid getting a reduced cost per Frostbites on the target would be excellent.
I'm more positive about him but agree with your points. I think his whole dynamic would have changed if his ability was a response instead of interrupt. This would greatly change the flow of how he puts out frost bites and increase his feel of being a support hero. As is though, he's fine.
That's fair and I glad you enjoy him more. I think I consider him to be "fine" too, but I think he had a lot more potential
Since Iceman is such a slow hero and he needs some build up, is he like a snowball? You have to start off small, but after a while he becomes a huge powerhouse? (I mostly asked for the pun, but an honest question as well.)
Unfortunately not! He starts off slightly slow and, while he can improve greatly, he won't hit the lofty heights of the real slow-starters like Iron Man, Quicksilver or Ironheart.
I haven't managed to get my hands on it yet, as UK is always behind... but he seems very underwhelming, probably because of the hype he received when he was announced. Still, for an Omega level Mutant, you would expect more. From what I see, he will probably works best in Protection and Leadership. Leadership as it is ridiculously strong in general, so you don't even care about Iceman's kit as much, and your kit is supporting the aspect, than the other way around. Protection as you can build perfect defense with loads of ready and Taunt, but it will be a bit of a slow setup. It is definitely best suited for multiplayer. I can see Iceman played alongside Cyclops a lot and any hero with low HP pool and bad survivability to protect them, so the other hero can do what they do best and not worry they might die. Or a hero who relies heavily on their Alter-Ego actions, so the hero can flip more consistently without too much scheming from the Villain and Minions. I don't think I will enjoy it in solo games, as he is obviously not solo games oriented. Once I got my hands on Iceman, first think I will do is play him in Protection alongside Ms. Marvel Aggression, as she loves her Alter-Ego actions, and I won't have to exhaust her to keep Wiggle Room in my hand.
Cyclops and Iceman are a fantastic pairing. I'm not convinced you'll find too much success with Taunt Iceman but it could be fun to try!
I'm hoping it's over here and available for everyone soon.
All your criticism is well constructed, but I just find I enjoy playing him way more than I would expect, and find him way more powerful than this video would suggest. I think the villain control aspect is great, such that he is really consistent but maybe he will get boring due to having the same basic package in n every deck.
Hey that's amazing! I'm happy you enjoy him and glad you're getting the results! I will say I do think he's very effective, but I think that for most heroes in the game now. Being in the lower half for power doesn't mean a hero isn't actually still quite powerful. I'm not sure I made that clear enough in the video.
Iceman is a mixed bag of ice pops and they're all the not so great flavors.
Wise words, wise words
I really like that basic card patch you suggested. It would be very to see it in another upcoming hero's pack.
Iceman is my favourite Marvel character so I'm pretty disappointed that he sounds pretty rough. I'm really hoping that Nightcrawler (who has a similar thing with Frostbite in Bamf) includes some kind of basic card which can enable this upgrade attaching playstyle
Keep in mind that this is just my opinion, I believe Nelson for example really likes Iceman! So I would simply say I hope you're not too disheartened - you might really love playing Iceman!
And I'm pleased to say that, while Bamf will definitely have conflicting priorities, I think it will be on more of a fun decision-making way overall. I'm still very very excited for Nightcrawler.
If you love Iceman you’ll love his deck. I have a different opinion. He is a ton of fun. Maybe not crazy powerful but feels like him!
@@VillainTheory I'm also really excited for Nightcrawler. I'm really hoping he comes with a card like you suggested with moving around attached upgrades since it could be used with Iceman and Cyclops.
I'd be surprised if Iceman doesn't get a card or two before the year ends that boosts him a bit.
Nightcrawler also uses a key signature upgrade which he attaches to enemies basically every turn, so I agree there's a really good chance of it. Let's see!
He just takes too long to get going. There are too many pieces that I felt were essential to his kit and not enough time to play them. I've only tried him in protection and aggression but so far I'm not impressed.
He does better in Leadership, Clarity of Purpose can help alongside just powerful X-Men stuff, but I feel like Protection and Aggression suit him better as a whole. Leadeship is just stronger. But your mileage may vary! Worth trying at any rate!
At least Iceman's aggression cards made Rogue and Valkyrie a lot more fun! I'm mainly waiting for Nightcrawler at this point. Iceman was a bit disappointing and I'm also not super hyped for Jubilee. Hopefully the final hero is Magneto and he's amazing.
They're fun! I think Beak is a little too good for X-Men decks but honestly I kind of like him on the 1 THW heroes in solo play, I'll take all the help I can get. Love the Sauron modular too.
Iceman is at the top of my “this hero is fine but…” list
Not my first or second choice for an entertaining session.
This is a good way to put it. He's fine, but I have like 45+ heroes I'm more inclined to play.
I'm also fairly disappointed with Iceman. I love this character, and on paper his kit sounded really cool, but in practice I haven't found it particularly fun.
Perhaps Nightcrawler or that mysterious final hero are hiding a couple of aspect/basic cards that will give him a boost and help things click. Once upon a time I didn't like Rocket, then a couple expansions later? Repurpose happened...
I will agree Iceman is not the strongest hero but I've been having a blast playing him with mutant protectors you basically want to keep a frostbitten or pinned down minion around then when you play protectors you get a fully healthy ally sometimes at a discount and if hanger bays out they're even ready on your turn too it's not super reliable but it is fun lol
Also I think running unflappable in easier scenarios along with cryogenic can result in drawing two cards every villain phase which feels pretty cool 😅
That's awesome! Really glad you're enjoying him!
He is definitely "meh" for me. His cards are too expensive. And why, oh why, does he have to lose Ice Slide when he goes to alter ego. The upgrades should be 1 cost. Ice Blast can be fun to play but it is a situational card.
Poor Ice Slide. Sometimes it does give great value but it's pretty unpredictable, I've really gone off playing it a lot of the time.
I don’t know why I don’t have anything against Iceman. Don’t necessarily disagree with any specific point, but I’ve found him pretty effective in each aspect🤷♂️
That's fair! I don't necessarily think he's ineffective, 34/52 honestly puts him among many strong, viable heroes. "Clunky and Frostbites don't feel rewarding" is how I'd sum up my biggest issues.
Wish me luck… I’m about to start MG campaign with iceman and someone else (maybe nightcrawler) 😅
Good luck, how has it gone?!
@@VillainTheory slow because of work, but better than expected, and I find these heroes complement each other well. Also, I find them more fun that Spiderham… for some reason when I played SM campaign, Spiderham felt weirdly boring for me…
I don't know, you talk here like it's a problem that he is a B tier hero, do we need every new hero in A tier now? WebWarriorFanatic beat with him Ronan on Expert without rush tactic, control style, from that perspective he crush on Expert, not just Standard. I would place him probably higher on tier list (like in Nelson's list).
Oh for sure, I've fought Venom Goblin with him as another example. Pretty much all the heroes around where I ranked him (34th) can do that in my opinion with today's card pool. Especially if you lean into Leadership which I am just assuming Web-Warrior did. Most heroes are very strong and capable these days that even the ones in the lower 50% crush most villains if you really go for it.
I say at the end of the video that my problem isn't his power. For me, the problem is I find many of his cards and style frustrating and clunky.
@@VillainTheory Thanks for reply, I get it, clunkiness is indeed a factor here. Btw. WebWarrior did it in Protection, but it was still mostly based on this Utopia gimmick.
@@TAC3O Oh nice! I suspect it might go even better in Leadership but that's awesome.
P.S. We asked your question on the podcast, keep an eye out for it!
@@VillainTheory Thank you VT, I'm definitely waiting for this video! You give us top-notch content on MC!
This question has nothing to do with ice man. (Loved the video though).. looking at another FFG game. Arkham and LOTR keep popping up. But then I saw a game of thrones one that had high reviews. Have you played any of these?
I've not played the Game of Thrones one, I gather it's a little older. But I've played 3 games of Lord of the Rings and lots and lots of Arkham!
I really like Arkham.The core set is good but worse than Marvel Champions, and the first expansion is great but not quite Rise of Red Skull (though I do still recommend it), and then practically everything is excellent. I've got about 5 expansions at this point!
It's part card game with some similar parts to Marvel, part board game with different locations out in front of you, and part RPG with strong story elements and "dice rolls" (tokens pulled from a bag).
W
100% agreed, he's very disappointing, the game loop is a bit broken (in a bad way) and only a few decks are viable... :/
Too bad, I'll wait for nightcrawler :p
It’s kind of refreshing to hear a less positive review for once. And I don’t really see it as a knock on the designers (who have consistently done a phenomenal job). It’s hard to bat 1.000 when designing so many hero expansions and I doubt there are many/any heroes that are universally loved by everyone. The versatility of gameplay each hero brings is part of what makes the game so good.
I’m tempted to buy the pack still just for the aspect cards. Some of the new aggression cards look like they could be good for Valkyrie but I haven’t seen many decklists using them for her on MarvelDB. Any thoughts on the value of the new aspect cards for old heroes?
The designers do an amazing job! It's definitely not meant as a knock against them. But at the same time, a review is a review and Bobby is on thin ice with me...
So unfortunately most of what I said in my preview video about the new Aggression cards came true. Overall they're not very good for Valkyrie. There was/is a popular sentiment that because the new cards interact with upgrades they are going to be good for the heroes that put upgrades onto enemies, but this is not strictly the case. Suppressing Fire is kinda interesting on Cyclops, Surprise Move isn't bad on Rogue, but none of it is a game-changer.
The best gains here, in my opinion, are all four of the allies. Shark-Girl and Glob ARE really good for Cyclops and Rogue especially. Shadowcat is a good basic X-Men ally to have. Beak is effectively an "S-tier" basic ally that even non X-Men are going to want (notably in solo Aggression and Protection). And then I also quite like the player side scheme and the Sauron modular set, though neither are a must-have. (Though the side scheme is great for Cable.)
I think you're a bit harsh on Bobby overall. He's not the best hero around (I would place him at or maybe just above average), but he has some incredible tools to deal with stalwart villains, which are becoming more and more common. I do agree that a lot of his decks look pretty same-y, but you can say the same thing about Domino, Cable, Angel, Psylocke, Bishop, and Magik. Not to mention all the prior X-Men, who all want the same collection of basic supports.
I took him through the last three battles of GMW on standard in Protection, and he breezed through it without any real problems. I had What Doesn't Kill Me, X-Men allies, and Utopia, and there were rarely turns I didn't have a ready on board, whether it be hitting an ice card on the draw, Desperate Defense, or an ally. I had to flip down to AE exactly twice across those three and one other game with Bobby. Sometimes I even left the obligation out because I didn't need to get rid of it.
Overall, he's very slow, but incredibly resilient. Maybe the most resilient hero we have outside of Kitty.
I didn't put him too far away from average overall!
I agree that he's resilient, and honestly a well-built deck like that for heroes around where I put him at 34th/52nd should do really well! There's only 8 or so heroes I think actually can struggle and that's mostly at lower player counts. So I don't think he's weak as such when you lean into Utopia and all the best X-Men allies, he's very viable, but he has a lot of feel-bad stuff and clunkiness. But I am glad you like him and that others do too! He's just not for me.
I'll probably shelf him for now and revisit him a couple months down the line with fresh eyes - and maybe new cards. And see if I change my mind!