Great information. I am thinking about purchasing a new golf cart with lithium batteries but was a little hesitant about fire risk at my home. You provided me with some very good information that makes good common sense. Especially concerning the Battery Management System. Thank you so very much and I am tickled that I ran across this video! 👍
Very happy to hear that the video helped you out! That's my purpose here on TH-cam! Entertain or educate! Good luck on your golf cart shopoping experience!
Excellent information. I have a Fat Tire Trike that has 2 Lithium batteries. When I first got it, used, only about 1 year old, I was getting 2 full rounds between charges. I know now I was stressing the batteries by not charging after each round. Eventually, one of the 2 batteries would quit short of getting me home. Now, after replacing that battery, I get only 1 full round, but at least I get home. Did I stress out the other battery so much that it has been degraded? What are the principals, advantages, disadvantages of a two battery system? Thanks, Terry
Man this is great information and explanation of battery and truths and myths. I just bought a D5 and this will definitely help me with taking care of the battery and helping to make it last a long time. Keep up the great wirk!
Hi, I just bought and installed a single 48 volt battery for my golf cart. It is 27 amp hours. I just use the cart for chores around the hobby farm. Should I install a second battery. Too early to tell but I drove it down the road about a half mile and came back and it was down to 94% already. Will I get more life out of each battery if I buy 2?
It has been over 90 degrees for days now. Is there some way to keep my battery cool? I keep the garage door open until dark but it's still pretty warm. I take my cart out for a 10 mile run about 4 times a week and fully charge it as soon as I get home.
Overall really good info, but the reason LiCo batteries catch fire is because Colbalt Oxide is less stable and has a lower ignition temperature than phosphate oxide which has a stronger molecular bond, not due to the energy density. You have to get LifePo batteries to like 400c+ iirc for them to actually catch fire. The hot gasses that escape a failing LifePo battery can melt plastic, but should not ignite common materials like plastic, wood, vinyl, etc. So you were right in your explanation, but wrong on the science which is fine by me!
Very helpful. I have a unique question. I bought a 2021 Renegade Golf cart with lithium battery. I'm not mechanical at all so, other quality factors notwithstanding, I thought I was buying a low maintenance product. I have a couple issues. One is I don't think the power indicator is accurate. Worse, on three occasions in 18 months, while pulling a short gradual hill (with four good sized adults), my cart died, locked up, and had to be towed. Got home, plugged in, and the indicator showed 80% or better. That would be accurate based on the amount of miles I drove but I have no idea what made it go dead. Any thoughts?
So I have zero experience with Renegade golf carts but I do know that it's technically a Kandi golf cart (Coleman, etc). ---------Most lithium batteries have a BMS that tells the indicator what charge to show. Your BMS could be bad or need to be reprogrammed. ---------For the battery shutting off, it sounds like the controller on your cart is programmed so that it asks the battery for too much power when being pushed (like an up an hill) which then clips the battery's amperage discharge which shuts the battery off. The controller parameters need set so that it can't ask the battery for too much power so this doesn't happen again. --------- Now when it comes to getting these things done, I can't help but refer to my other video when talking about the dealer support behind a golf cart. I'm guessing you did not buy the Renegade from a dealer and now you're really going to need a dealer to fix these issues. I have no idea if Kandi dealers touch Renegade golf carts, but finding a Kandi dealer is your best bet.---------- Hope this helps! Thanks!
In that scenario sounds like its the hill. This used to be a big problem with RoyPow a couple of years ago (fixed now I believe), the best way for me to explain the problem is basically your battery is not able to discharge enough amps for a long enough period of time to get up the hill (When it exceeds it for too long it will shut the battery off for protection). This is a battery issue, you can blame the controller for asking for too many amps, but the battery chosen to be put in a cart should be based off of the rating of the equipment in the cart. So If I have a 600 amp Controller I am going to pick a battery with higher max discharge ratings than if I have a 200 amp controller. Sadly for the consumer it gets confusing, that's why picking a good dealer is important because they will have your back if something is clearly wrong.
Is there a difference between the batteries you describe in your video, LiFePO4, and Lithium Ion Cell batteries regards charging cycles, and how best to charge the batteries, and how often.
There are many types of lithium batteries so defining which batteries we're referring to is very important. The best thing I can recommend is for you to find the manual for your batteries and follow that manual to a T!
Great video! I’m on my second Evolution 130Ah battery covered under warranty. This new battery has gone from 60% reading on the battery gauge to zero. The dealership no longer will cover warranty work on Evolution because they can’t get the parts. I’m only getting 24-28 miles on a single charge driving it between 20-23 mph. Is that a typical range and what’s with the false gauge reading?
Those are typical ranges per charge with that size of battery and my best guess on the false gauge reading is that your BMS needs reprogrammed or replaced!
@@Brandon-id3gg They didn’t give me a reason why they couldn’t get the parts for Evolution carts. But it is the chief reason they stopped servicing Evolution carts.
For those of you looking to buy a cart and are comparing different options, keep an eye on the batteries, it is the most important part of your cart. Know the difference between LiFePO4 and Li ion especially if you are looking to switch an old battery to lithium. There is a reason batteries can range from 1k-5k its all about range, power, life span, and warranty. Different equipment and terrain sometimes requires different batteries, ask a well known and respected dealer if you need guidance before buying. Do your research get opinions from different people, don't just ask the guy your buying from.
If you want to always make sure it has 100% charge when you use it, otherwise it's not a big deal if you don't plug it in everytime you're done using it.
Needing a 4 seater (2 front, 2 rear facing). I just can’t decide if I should buy the Evolution Maverick 2x2 for $9700 or a Club Car Upward Li Ion 4 seater for 15k………Which route would you go?
There's a lot to unpack there. It's give and take. Yes you can buy the Onward that has the better frame, has the old proven Club Car name, and has a great fit and finish. But you can also buy the D5 that is faster and also has more bells and whistles than the Onward for much less money. Yes you can add quite a few bells and whistles to an Onward to compare apples to apples but you'd spend far more than $15k if you added more features to the Onward. So again, just depends on what you're concerned about and what you actually want!
What do you think about the Atlas golf cart. I purchased one should be here today. Please give me some solid feedback on these. Very little info online.
Just bought a Dachi 72v lifepo4e and when I’m running it up a hill, it goes into limp mode. The guy I purchased it from said it’s a “thermal protection.” Have you heard of this?
So Lithium batteries have a max amperage discharge (aka, how much amperage they can provide a motor/Controller). The BMS in the battery will shut the battery off if the battery is asked to provide more amperage than it can. So it sounds like the motor/Controller settings in your cart are turned up to high for your battery because the motor/Controller will ask for a hell of alot more power climbing a hill then driving on even terrain.
Hi, so my Golf Cart Dealer is offering to change out my 6 batteries for 1 Lithium battery cell. They are offering a 48V 105AH cell. I've been in contact with another Lithium dealer and they are suggesting a 48V 160AH Cell, What's the real difference and what are the drawbacks? Thanks in advance
The real differences in the two batteries are capacity and possibly the power limit of the BMS. The 160AH battery pack has ~50% more capacity, and thus can achieve ~50% more range. So, if you were getting a range of something like 24-30 miles with the 105AH pack, then you'd likely get a range of around 36-45 miles with the 160AH pack with everything else equal. The 160AH pack may or may not also have a BMS capable of delivering more power for a longer time, which can matter if you drive on steep long hills and/or have a more powerful motor and controller. The only real drawbacks going for the larger battery would be the higher upfront cost and longer recharge time if you consistently run it from full to empty and back to full, though that won't matter if you drive the same distance on either battery.
I just checked the new Club Car Onward's battery specs, it appears they are actually using Lithium-Ion and not Lithium Iron Phosphate. Not once do they mention Lithium Iron Phosphate, LiFePO4 or LFP in the spec sheet or advertising that i saw, only Lithium-Ion which surprises me. So now I am relatively certain that manufacturers are using both Li-Ion and LiFePO4 chemistries. Which means when someone asks you a question about a golf cart battery you definitely need to determine which chemistry they have to provide the correct information Since you have specified that you are only speaking about LiFePO4 and not Li-Ion batteries in this video, some of the information you have provided is incorrect or only a half truth because you are interchanging traits of both chemistries. You may have researched "Lithium" which gave answers for both chemistries. First, people need to understand that there is a difference between DAMAGE and DEGRADATION. ALL "Lithium" batteries degrade even when you are not using them. They are going to degrade regardless and the best you can do is try to mitigate the factors responsible IF you are really going to use and abuse the battery. That being said they are meant to be used (which yes, does degrade them further) eventually needing to be replaced if you require more capacity then they can provide in their degraded state. Question 1) The answer in general is NO. LiFePO4 batteries are just fine being discharged down to 10%. As a matter of fact they can go down to 0% without "damaging" them. You are only "degrading" them SLIGHTLY faster by using a full charge/discharge cycle. But as I stated in my previous post, calendar aging (old age) will probably degrade them faster unless you charge/discharge multiple times per day. Li-Ion batteries however will degrade faster under similar conditions relative to their charge/discharge characteristics. Question 2) The answer is that it is fine. LiFePO4 batteries can be fully charged/discharged with little degradation caused on a per cycle basis. It is acceptable to store a LiFePO4 over the winter at a 100% state of charge but it doesn't hurt to bring it down to say 90% or less either if you want to. But you don't have to in order to prevent "damage". All depends on temps and how long it is going to be stored. I have left my continuously fully charged 48V LiFePO4 battery backup in my cold garage for the last 6 years (this will be winter number 7) and it has only degraded by about 7%. Probably 8-9% degradation next time I check it on its 7th anniversary. It is Li-Ion batteries that you would want ro leave at between 50-80% or so due to their more restrictive nature. Question 3) The answer given was fine in general for LiFePO4 batteries. If you charge/discharge heavily, you do not want to be constantly topping off a Li-Ion battery. Question 4) True that 12V accessories drain a battery slowly. They do have a lower current (amp) draw but if you have a lot of accessories or just a few high current draw accessories even at 12V, it can add up somewhat quickly. For various reasons, some people use an auxiliary battery to power 12V accessories only and one of those reasons is to keep from leeching power from the main. The size of main and/or addition of a secondary battery should all depend on how you use or intend to use your cart. Question 5) The chances of thermal runaway (catching fire) happening with LiFePO4 is negligible at best. LiFePO4 produces less heat and RARELY suffers from thermal runaway even when physically punctured. Although they can be "damaged" internally so to speak when overcharged they are still not prone to thermal runaway. While still unlikely, Li-Ion does suffer from a higher probability of thermal runaway especially when physically damaged, shorted or overcharged. As well not all "Lithium" batteries found in new golf carts appear to be Lithium Iron Phosphate. There is some other misinformation in this answer but not really worth trying to explain. Even a full charge/discharge once a day will take 8.2 years to fully degrade (not damage) a 3,000 cycle count LiFePO4 battery within its warranty termination period. The term "fully degrade" in this instance really just means that it's at the end of the warranty period which is usually 7-10 years or in this example case, 3,000 cycles. Whichever comes first. At that point most LiFePO4 batteries will still retain 70-80% of their rated capacity. The battery could have more rated cycles but most manufacturers currently fall within the same warranty range for time frame and remaining capacity.
I guess the main takeaway is that manufacturers are making carts with both Li-Ion and LiFePO4 from what I can see. And adhering to the best practices for Li-Ion is fine for both chemistries however you will be underutilizing your LiFePO4 battery for no good reason at all. And adhering to the best practices for LiFePO4 if you actually have a Li-Ion battery = no bueno, muy malo. It's bad mmmkaayyyy. If you have a 3,000 cycle count rated LiFePO4 battery and FULLY charge/discharge it 5 times per week (or less)...then you don't have to worry about longevity. Just use it, have fun and it should easily last you 10+ years and still have 70-80% capacity at the end of that 10+ years (11.5 years at 5x/week theoretically). Maybe that is still enough capacity to keep from having to buy a new battery. If your LiFePO4 battery is rated for even more than 3,000 cycles, then you are golden for an even longer period of time. However the warranty will probably still expire first unless they increase the time frame again like they have done in the past as quality and efficiency have increased.
Honestly, it's hard to say what is the best because a lot of batteries have not been out for more than a few years. We've always had success with Roy Pow, but Ecobattery is great as well!
You are showing a Roypow LiFePO4 battery at the beginning of this video and saying Li-Ion. Which chemistry are you speaking of here...Lithium-Ion (Li-Ion) or Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4 or LFP)? You seem to be confusing some of the traits of these two chemistries. You keep saying Li-Ion but then reference traits that are only true of LiFePO4. For example, Li-Ion can't get nearly 3,000 charge/discharge cycles. Even Tesla vehicles can only achieve around 1,500 cycles (or a little higher) with high grade Panasonic Li-Ion cells and they both have been perfecting their systems for years to stave off battery degradation. However, LiFePO4 cells can achieve that and many more cycles (4,000-8,000+) now days depending on the formula used. If someone has a battery rated for 3,000 charge/discharge cycles, it is LiFePO4! Meaning some of your answers to these questions may be incorrect. Another thing is a LiFePO4 battery is far more likely to degrade from calendar aging (old age) than a users charge/discharge habits. The same cannot be said for Li-Ion due to far greater charge/discharge deficiencies and lower cycle count. I have a 6 year old DIY 48V LiFePO4 battery backup rated for only 2,000 charge/discharge cycles (older formula) out in my garage which is very cold right now. Not freezing but still cold. The battery stays fully charged ALL year round. I do make sure the garage stays at least above freezing so the battery can charge safely. It is only discharged during a power outage or once a year when I pull a capacity test on it. It still had 93% of it's rated capacity last I checked a few months ago. Not the best idea to do this with Li-Ion though. Chemistry makes a difference. You need to find out what types of batteries people are asking about when they say "Lithium" because the two chemistries are often lumped together due to lack of knowledge. Many people don't understand that what is true for one chemistry is not always true for the other if they distinguish between them at all. Lithium is Lithium...right?
Holy cow. Love all of the feedback! So a lot of the video/graphic references were the only cool looking videos I could find on the internet lol, and I keep saying "Lithium" because it's way quicker to say Lifepo4. All of my research was strictly based on Lifepo4 batteries and just stated in the video what I found in my research....its a very slippery slope when making a video like this because I try to keep it as up pace and entertaining as possible and not to turn it into a lecture covering everysingle little detail because then most people wouldn't watch it. This full recording was actually 45 minutes long, and I cut it down to 13. Regardless, I sincerely appreciate your feedback. Thanks for watching!
Thanks for the helpful video Sloan. I have a question. I am changing from 6-8V batteries (lead) to a 48V lithium battery. Is there any thing I need to do to my golf cart switching to lithium.
You're very welcome, thank you for watching! 😀 As far as switching out to a lithium battery, there's nothing you'll really need to change, you'll just have a much cleaner looking setup under your seat with only a couple wires now instead of a bunch lol. One thing you may need though, if you don't already have one, is a voltage reducer if you have any 12 volt components on your cart!
Might want to do some research of your own and learn the full truth. Although this video presented as being knowledgeable about "Lithium" (which is the wrong terminology), there were some half truths and misinformation presented. It's important to distinguish between Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4, LFP) and Lithium Ion (Li-Ion) which it appears at least Club Car is using in their standard range "Lithium" battery for the Onward. A dealer sent me a picture of that battery which states a nominal pack voltage of 58V which is NOT the nominal voltage for a 48V LiFePO4 pack (48V or 51.2V is nominal if it has 15x or 16x cells at 3.2V nominal per cell). A few cart manufacturers are stating Li-Ion all over their advertising materials but are actually using LiFePO4 when you check the cell/pack voltages, number of cells and cycle count ratings. There is a ton of confusion out there because of videos like this and cart manufacturer misadvertising alike that are perpetuating the confusion between the two branches of "Lithium" batteries. Lumping both branches, Li-Ion and LiFePO4, under the "Lithium" moniker and improperly interchanging their characteristics does more harm than good.
For Li-Ion batteries...yes. For LiFePO4 batteries...you can but don't have to. You can store it at 100% or less if you want. Mainly depends on temperature and how long it will be stored causing higher or lower levels of self discharge. There is nothing wrong with storing a LiFePO4 battery at 100% as they do not degrade as easily as Li-Ion. There is a difference between "damage" and "degradation". Degradation is normal and will happen in any and all use (and non-use) cases over the life of any battery.
I know lol. I kept saying Electrodes instead of Electrons for some reason lol. These videos are insanely time consuming so I couldn't afford to reshoot and edit it after I figured out that I said electrodes the entire time lol
bro, sounds like blah, blah, blah. u might look up the word electrode, electrodes don't flow. your reasoning behind the short life of batteries is questionable, some more blah on the net if i look it up. we run ours til their dead, dead, dead. power tools to weed-eaters to wheelchairs etc.., some of our batteries die in a yr time, some make their life well over 10yrs without noticeable degrade. as for those who worry bout these lifepo4 batteries burning up in a garage. well hey, we've lived with acid batteries in our vehicles for ever, have u ever heard and seen a lead acid battery short and explode, i have? now we have ev cars, why are u worry bout your golf cart with a processor charge and short control built in your battery burning u up? the worst u can do to your battery is over charge, and that's hard to do nowadays...
Great information, I install a lot lead acid to lithium conversion’s and am asked these questions, now I have the answers
Great information. I am thinking about purchasing a new golf cart with lithium batteries but was a little hesitant about fire risk at my home. You provided me with some very good information that makes good common sense. Especially concerning the Battery Management System. Thank you so very much and I am tickled that I ran across this video! 👍
Very happy to hear that the video helped you out! That's my purpose here on TH-cam! Entertain or educate! Good luck on your golf cart shopoping experience!
Great video super helpful. Thank you!
Thank you for watching and thanks for the feedback!
Excellent information. I have a Fat Tire Trike that has 2 Lithium batteries. When I first got it, used, only about 1 year old, I was getting 2 full rounds between charges. I know now I was stressing the batteries by not charging after each round. Eventually, one of the 2 batteries would quit short of getting me home. Now, after replacing that battery, I get only 1 full round, but at least I get home. Did I stress out the other battery so much that it has been degraded? What are the principals, advantages, disadvantages of a two battery system?
Thanks, Terry
Man this is great information and explanation of battery and truths and myths. I just bought a D5 and this will definitely help me with taking care of the battery and helping to make it last a long time. Keep up the great wirk!
Really enjoyed the video and very informative 👍
Thanks!
Hi, I just bought and installed a single 48 volt battery for my golf cart. It is 27 amp hours. I just use the cart for chores around the hobby farm. Should I install a second battery. Too early to tell but I drove it down the road about a half mile and came back and it was down to 94% already. Will I get more life out of each battery if I buy 2?
It has been over 90 degrees for days now. Is there some way to keep my battery cool? I keep the garage door open until dark but it's still pretty warm. I take my cart out for a 10 mile run about 4 times a week and fully charge it as soon as I get home.
Overall really good info, but the reason LiCo batteries catch fire is because Colbalt Oxide is less stable and has a lower ignition temperature than phosphate oxide which has a stronger molecular bond, not due to the energy density. You have to get LifePo batteries to like 400c+ iirc for them to actually catch fire. The hot gasses that escape a failing LifePo battery can melt plastic, but should not ignite common materials like plastic, wood, vinyl, etc. So you were right in your explanation, but wrong on the science which is fine by me!
Would you get go with a lithium kit that is NMC like a Badger EVO 48v kit 95ah or stay away from NMC at all costs and only go with LFP?
Very informative. 😊
Thanks!
I own an Evolution cart looking for a front grill do you sell accessories for the cart?
Very helpful. I have a unique question. I bought a 2021 Renegade Golf cart with lithium battery. I'm not mechanical at all so, other quality factors notwithstanding, I thought I was buying a low maintenance product. I have a couple issues. One is I don't think the power indicator is accurate. Worse, on three occasions in 18 months, while pulling a short gradual hill (with four good sized adults), my cart died, locked up, and had to be towed. Got home, plugged in, and the indicator showed 80% or better. That would be accurate based on the amount of miles I drove but I have no idea what made it go dead. Any thoughts?
So I have zero experience with Renegade golf carts but I do know that it's technically a Kandi golf cart (Coleman, etc). ---------Most lithium batteries have a BMS that tells the indicator what charge to show. Your BMS could be bad or need to be reprogrammed. ---------For the battery shutting off, it sounds like the controller on your cart is programmed so that it asks the battery for too much power when being pushed (like an up an hill) which then clips the battery's amperage discharge which shuts the battery off. The controller parameters need set so that it can't ask the battery for too much power so this doesn't happen again. --------- Now when it comes to getting these things done, I can't help but refer to my other video when talking about the dealer support behind a golf cart. I'm guessing you did not buy the Renegade from a dealer and now you're really going to need a dealer to fix these issues. I have no idea if Kandi dealers touch Renegade golf carts, but finding a Kandi dealer is your best bet.---------- Hope this helps! Thanks!
In that scenario sounds like its the hill. This used to be a big problem with RoyPow a couple of years ago (fixed now I believe), the best way for me to explain the problem is basically your battery is not able to discharge enough amps for a long enough period of time to get up the hill (When it exceeds it for too long it will shut the battery off for protection). This is a battery issue, you can blame the controller for asking for too many amps, but the battery chosen to be put in a cart should be based off of the rating of the equipment in the cart. So If I have a 600 amp Controller I am going to pick a battery with higher max discharge ratings than if I have a 200 amp controller. Sadly for the consumer it gets confusing, that's why picking a good dealer is important because they will have your back if something is clearly wrong.
Is there a difference between the batteries you describe in your video, LiFePO4, and Lithium Ion Cell batteries regards charging cycles, and how best to charge the batteries, and how often.
There are many types of lithium batteries so defining which batteries we're referring to is very important. The best thing I can recommend is for you to find the manual for your batteries and follow that manual to a T!
Great video! I’m on my second Evolution 130Ah battery covered under warranty. This new battery has gone from 60% reading on the battery gauge to zero. The dealership no longer will cover warranty work on Evolution because they can’t get the parts. I’m only getting 24-28 miles on a single charge driving it between 20-23 mph. Is that a typical range and what’s with the false gauge reading?
Those are typical ranges per charge with that size of battery and my best guess on the false gauge reading is that your BMS needs reprogrammed or replaced!
Why can’t your dealer get parts from evolution?
@@Brandon-id3gg They didn’t give me a reason why they couldn’t get the parts for Evolution carts. But it is the chief reason they stopped servicing Evolution carts.
For those of you looking to buy a cart and are comparing different options, keep an eye on the batteries, it is the most important part of your cart. Know the difference between LiFePO4 and Li ion especially if you are looking to switch an old battery to lithium. There is a reason batteries can range from 1k-5k its all about range, power, life span, and warranty. Different equipment and terrain sometimes requires different batteries, ask a well known and respected dealer if you need guidance before buying. Do your research get opinions from different people, don't just ask the guy your buying from.
Hello can I charge my battery from a power inverter or a generator if so which one or voltage or amps?
I'm not really sure to be honest. I don't think it'd be wise to charge your battery with a generator though.
So if I only use my Evolution Maverick 2+2, once or twice per week, I should keep it plugged in while stored in the garage?
If you want to always make sure it has 100% charge when you use it, otherwise it's not a big deal if you don't plug it in everytime you're done using it.
Needing a 4 seater (2 front, 2 rear facing). I just can’t decide if I should buy the Evolution Maverick 2x2 for $9700 or a Club Car Upward Li Ion 4 seater for 15k………Which route would you go?
There's a lot to unpack there. It's give and take. Yes you can buy the Onward that has the better frame, has the old proven Club Car name, and has a great fit and finish. But you can also buy the D5 that is faster and also has more bells and whistles than the Onward for much less money. Yes you can add quite a few bells and whistles to an Onward to compare apples to apples but you'd spend far more than $15k if you added more features to the Onward. So again, just depends on what you're concerned about and what you actually want!
What do you think about the Atlas golf cart. I purchased one should be here today. Please give me some solid feedback on these. Very little info online.
Bruh, lol, you already bought it. Too late for advice.
Funny you ask because that's one of the next videos I'm coming out with! At Atlas golf cart review! Stay tuned because I go super deep into detail!
Just bought a Dachi 72v lifepo4e and when I’m running it up a hill, it goes into limp mode. The guy I purchased it from said it’s a “thermal protection.” Have you heard of this?
So Lithium batteries have a max amperage discharge (aka, how much amperage they can provide a motor/Controller). The BMS in the battery will shut the battery off if the battery is asked to provide more amperage than it can.
So it sounds like the motor/Controller settings in your cart are turned up to high for your battery because the motor/Controller will ask for a hell of alot more power climbing a hill then driving on even terrain.
Hi, so my Golf Cart Dealer is offering to change out my 6 batteries for 1 Lithium battery cell. They are offering a 48V 105AH cell. I've been in contact with another Lithium dealer and they are suggesting a 48V 160AH Cell, What's the real difference and what are the drawbacks? Thanks in advance
The real differences in the two batteries are capacity and possibly the power limit of the BMS. The 160AH battery pack has ~50% more capacity, and thus can achieve ~50% more range. So, if you were getting a range of something like 24-30 miles with the 105AH pack, then you'd likely get a range of around 36-45 miles with the 160AH pack with everything else equal. The 160AH pack may or may not also have a BMS capable of delivering more power for a longer time, which can matter if you drive on steep long hills and/or have a more powerful motor and controller. The only real drawbacks going for the larger battery would be the higher upfront cost and longer recharge time if you consistently run it from full to empty and back to full, though that won't matter if you drive the same distance on either battery.
I just checked the new Club Car Onward's battery specs, it appears they are actually using Lithium-Ion and not Lithium Iron Phosphate. Not once do they mention Lithium Iron Phosphate, LiFePO4 or LFP in the spec sheet or advertising that i saw, only Lithium-Ion which surprises me. So now I am relatively certain that manufacturers are using both Li-Ion and LiFePO4 chemistries. Which means when someone asks you a question about a golf cart battery you definitely need to determine which chemistry they have to provide the correct information
Since you have specified that you are only speaking about LiFePO4 and not Li-Ion batteries in this video, some of the information you have provided is incorrect or only a half truth because you are interchanging traits of both chemistries. You may have researched "Lithium" which gave answers for both chemistries.
First, people need to understand that there is a difference between DAMAGE and DEGRADATION. ALL "Lithium" batteries degrade even when you are not using them. They are going to degrade regardless and the best you can do is try to mitigate the factors responsible IF you are really going to use and abuse the battery. That being said they are meant to be used (which yes, does degrade them further) eventually needing to be replaced if you require more capacity then they can provide in their degraded state.
Question 1) The answer in general is NO. LiFePO4 batteries are just fine being discharged down to 10%. As a matter of fact they can go down to 0% without "damaging" them. You are only "degrading" them SLIGHTLY faster by using a full charge/discharge cycle. But as I stated in my previous post, calendar aging (old age) will probably degrade them faster unless you charge/discharge multiple times per day. Li-Ion batteries however will degrade faster under similar conditions relative to their charge/discharge characteristics.
Question 2) The answer is that it is fine. LiFePO4 batteries can be fully charged/discharged with little degradation caused on a per cycle basis. It is acceptable to store a LiFePO4 over the winter at a 100% state of charge but it doesn't hurt to bring it down to say 90% or less either if you want to. But you don't have to in order to prevent "damage". All depends on temps and how long it is going to be stored. I have left my continuously fully charged 48V LiFePO4 battery backup in my cold garage for the last 6 years (this will be winter number 7) and it has only degraded by about 7%. Probably 8-9% degradation next time I check it on its 7th anniversary. It is Li-Ion batteries that you would want ro leave at between 50-80% or so due to their more restrictive nature.
Question 3) The answer given was fine in general for LiFePO4 batteries. If you charge/discharge heavily, you do not want to be constantly topping off a Li-Ion battery.
Question 4) True that 12V accessories drain a battery slowly. They do have a lower current (amp) draw but if you have a lot of accessories or just a few high current draw accessories even at 12V, it can add up somewhat quickly. For various reasons, some people use an auxiliary battery to power 12V accessories only and one of those reasons is to keep from leeching power from the main. The size of main and/or addition of a secondary battery should all depend on how you use or intend to use your cart.
Question 5) The chances of thermal runaway (catching fire) happening with LiFePO4 is negligible at best. LiFePO4 produces less heat and RARELY suffers from thermal runaway even when physically punctured. Although they can be "damaged" internally so to speak when overcharged they are still not prone to thermal runaway. While still unlikely, Li-Ion does suffer from a higher probability of thermal runaway especially when physically damaged, shorted or overcharged. As well not all "Lithium" batteries found in new golf carts appear to be Lithium Iron Phosphate. There is some other misinformation in this answer but not really worth trying to explain.
Even a full charge/discharge once a day will take 8.2 years to fully degrade (not damage) a 3,000 cycle count LiFePO4 battery within its warranty termination period. The term "fully degrade" in this instance really just means that it's at the end of the warranty period which is usually 7-10 years or in this example case, 3,000 cycles. Whichever comes first. At that point most LiFePO4 batteries will still retain 70-80% of their rated capacity. The battery could have more rated cycles but most manufacturers currently fall within the same warranty range for time frame and remaining capacity.
WOW, i read your previous post as well. Thanks for taking the time. It definitely seems like its important to verify which type of battery you have.
I guess the main takeaway is that manufacturers are making carts with both Li-Ion and LiFePO4 from what I can see. And adhering to the best practices for Li-Ion is fine for both chemistries however you will be underutilizing your LiFePO4 battery for no good reason at all. And adhering to the best practices for LiFePO4 if you actually have a Li-Ion battery = no bueno, muy malo. It's bad mmmkaayyyy.
If you have a 3,000 cycle count rated LiFePO4 battery and FULLY charge/discharge it 5 times per week (or less)...then you don't have to worry about longevity. Just use it, have fun and it should easily last you 10+ years and still have 70-80% capacity at the end of that 10+ years (11.5 years at 5x/week theoretically). Maybe that is still enough capacity to keep from having to buy a new battery. If your LiFePO4 battery is rated for even more than 3,000 cycles, then you are golden for an even longer period of time. However the warranty will probably still expire first unless they increase the time frame again like they have done in the past as quality and efficiency have increased.
Safe? As long as BMS is working in each battery.
NO you are not damaging the lithium battery by letting it drain. This was true with Lithium batteries 20 years ago, but not with modern ones.
Agreed. Would’ve been good to have an electrical engineer speak to the new technology of lithium batteries in todays market
Do a video to review the best batteries for lithium-swapping an old cart!
Honestly, it's hard to say what is the best because a lot of batteries have not been out for more than a few years. We've always had success with Roy Pow, but Ecobattery is great as well!
You are showing a Roypow LiFePO4 battery at the beginning of this video and saying Li-Ion.
Which chemistry are you speaking of here...Lithium-Ion (Li-Ion) or Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4 or LFP)? You seem to be confusing some of the traits of these two chemistries. You keep saying Li-Ion but then reference traits that are only true of LiFePO4.
For example, Li-Ion can't get nearly 3,000 charge/discharge cycles. Even Tesla vehicles can only achieve around 1,500 cycles (or a little higher) with high grade Panasonic Li-Ion cells and they both have been perfecting their systems for years to stave off battery degradation. However, LiFePO4 cells can achieve that and many more cycles (4,000-8,000+) now days depending on the formula used. If someone has a battery rated for 3,000 charge/discharge cycles, it is LiFePO4! Meaning some of your answers to these questions may be incorrect.
Another thing is a LiFePO4 battery is far more likely to degrade from calendar aging (old age) than a users charge/discharge habits. The same cannot be said for Li-Ion due to far greater charge/discharge deficiencies and lower cycle count.
I have a 6 year old DIY 48V LiFePO4 battery backup rated for only 2,000 charge/discharge cycles (older formula) out in my garage which is very cold right now. Not freezing but still cold. The battery stays fully charged ALL year round. I do make sure the garage stays at least above freezing so the battery can charge safely. It is only discharged during a power outage or once a year when I pull a capacity test on it. It still had 93% of it's rated capacity last I checked a few months ago. Not the best idea to do this with Li-Ion though. Chemistry makes a difference.
You need to find out what types of batteries people are asking about when they say "Lithium" because the two chemistries are often lumped together due to lack of knowledge. Many people don't understand that what is true for one chemistry is not always true for the other if they distinguish between them at all. Lithium is Lithium...right?
Holy cow. Love all of the feedback! So a lot of the video/graphic references were the only cool looking videos I could find on the internet lol, and I keep saying "Lithium" because it's way quicker to say Lifepo4. All of my research was strictly based on Lifepo4 batteries and just stated in the video what I found in my research....its a very slippery slope when making a video like this because I try to keep it as up pace and entertaining as possible and not to turn it into a lecture covering everysingle little detail because then most people wouldn't watch it. This full recording was actually 45 minutes long, and I cut it down to 13. Regardless, I sincerely appreciate your feedback. Thanks for watching!
One Fopah - YOU stated the Electrodes move within the battery - in fact the ELECTRONS MOVE positive to negative ELECTRODES .... which are stationary !
Im shopping for evolution ranger 4 seater. How do i contact you?
Sloan@bacarts.com or 419 238 4345
I’m in Ohio and use my cart year round. Ba carts is an awesome dealer and if your on the fence on which dealer to use go with ba carts!
Appreciate ya Don! 👊👍
Thanks for the helpful video Sloan. I have a question. I am changing from 6-8V batteries (lead) to a 48V lithium battery. Is there any thing I need to do to my golf cart switching to lithium.
You're very welcome, thank you for watching! 😀 As far as switching out to a lithium battery, there's nothing you'll really need to change, you'll just have a much cleaner looking setup under your seat with only a couple wires now instead of a bunch lol. One thing you may need though, if you don't already have one, is a voltage reducer if you have any 12 volt components on your cart!
Thank you for clearing up all the information that is out there
Very welcome Michael! 😀Glad you found the video helpful! Thanks for watching! Stay tuned for videos because we're only getting started!
I just started working with Golf Carts and the info in this video is invaluable. Thanx
You're very welcome! Glad this video helped! Enjoy the golf cart biz!
Might want to do some research of your own and learn the full truth. Although this video presented as being knowledgeable about "Lithium" (which is the wrong terminology), there were some half truths and misinformation presented. It's important to distinguish between Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4, LFP) and Lithium Ion (Li-Ion) which it appears at least Club Car is using in their standard range "Lithium" battery for the Onward. A dealer sent me a picture of that battery which states a nominal pack voltage of 58V which is NOT the nominal voltage for a 48V LiFePO4 pack (48V or 51.2V is nominal if it has 15x or 16x cells at 3.2V nominal per cell). A few cart manufacturers are stating Li-Ion all over their advertising materials but are actually using LiFePO4 when you check the cell/pack voltages, number of cells and cycle count ratings. There is a ton of confusion out there because of videos like this and cart manufacturer misadvertising alike that are perpetuating the confusion between the two branches of "Lithium" batteries. Lumping both branches, Li-Ion and LiFePO4, under the "Lithium" moniker and improperly interchanging their characteristics does more harm than good.
Sloan, thanks for this very helpful and informational video about lithium ion batteries and their proper use/charging.
Thank you Steve! Just doing my part for the golf cart world!
@@bacartsvw I also look forward to the early access email to pre-order the soundbox!
electrodes don't flow. Electrons flow. You really might want to get that correct.
2:12
I know. I know. I said Electrodes instead of Electrons. Didn't catch it until the video was done.
So for winter storage in the Northeast I should just leave at 50-80% and then fully charge before the next time I use it?
Yep exactly! Unless your cart has a smart charger that can slowly cycle the battery during long term storage!
For Li-Ion batteries...yes. For LiFePO4 batteries...you can but don't have to. You can store it at 100% or less if you want. Mainly depends on temperature and how long it will be stored causing higher or lower levels of self discharge. There is nothing wrong with storing a LiFePO4 battery at 100% as they do not degrade as easily as Li-Ion. There is a difference between "damage" and "degradation". Degradation is normal and will happen in any and all use (and non-use) cases over the life of any battery.
Electrodes? Really?
I know lol. I kept saying Electrodes instead of Electrons for some reason lol. These videos are insanely time consuming so I couldn't afford to reshoot and edit it after I figured out that I said electrodes the entire time lol
bro, sounds like blah, blah, blah. u might look up the word electrode, electrodes don't flow. your reasoning behind the short life of batteries is questionable, some more blah on the net if i look it up. we run ours til their dead, dead, dead. power tools to weed-eaters to wheelchairs etc.., some of our batteries die in a yr time, some make their life well over 10yrs without noticeable degrade. as for those who worry bout these lifepo4 batteries burning up in a garage. well hey, we've lived with acid batteries in our vehicles for ever, have u ever heard and seen a lead acid battery short and explode, i have? now we have ev cars, why are u worry bout your golf cart with a processor charge and short control built in your battery burning u up? the worst u can do to your battery is over charge, and that's hard to do nowadays...
good info Sloan! Just bought my 1st cart. 2024 Evolution D5 Ranger 4. Subbed.
Thanks Joseph! Appreciate the feedback! And heck yeah! Congrats on the first cart, the D5 is a great cart! Thanks for subbing!