@@byutube4360 Saved is saved. I have no way of knowing if magnum rounds would have worked better or caused me to miss due to increased recoil. I policed in a densely populated city and collateral damage was a big concern. Bigger is not always better.
That man in the video is well trained, even if antiquated. I've been shooting for about 34 years and practice several techniques, including the ones practices here. You never know when you may have to take a one handed shot with your weak hand. My father was trained in the old way and is very impressive at the range with it, thus teaching me to do the same. No matter what you know, or think you know, it's the shot that counts and you wouldn't be laughing at a 158 grain lead bullet hitting you squarely today. Prepare for whatever may come your way. Modern methods focus on the ideal situation too often.
I'm not sure what modern methods you're speaking of, but every single modern non competition firearms training school out there teaches you how to properly handle and manipulate your firearm in any condition, not just the preferred ones. That's why at a bare minimum, they all have a VTAC barricade. That vtac wall alone offers dozens of less than ideal shooting platforms that can be run on either hand. Sounds more just like you're trying to toot your own horn here, and give yourself an out for watching this video for anything other than entertainment. Because if you're actually drilling on outdated shooting methods, I feel sorry for your dependents.
DannyWarlegs I’m pretty sure he is a civilian and so am I . Humor me here; wouldn’t it be quicker to draw and hip fire rather than drawing all the way up to your face? I’m asking a genuine question because I don’t know. Also, would a technique like the one shown in the video work for a semi automatic handgun.
@@itscwillis1523 Hip firing is tough. Only use it at 10 yards or less. Try 5 yards at first. If you ever make it into an outdoor range, try unholstering and hip firing the first shot. Reholster and then repeat. It's a good way to learn to do it when you don't have the nearly unlimited ammo supply that a law enforcement officer has at their disposal. Hip firing is something you will be doing if you are fending off someone with your off-hand. If you can do it at 5-10 yards, you can do it at close quarters distance when an assailant is physically attacking you.
@@Chrondo702a sorry but in my house nobody is authorized to shoot unless they’re on target or pretty damn close (12 gauge) In no world are any of you guys right about firing from the hip. It should be a very very very last resort. I for one, will not be dislodging any bullets from my daughters nursery or dog house because some YT video of terrible techniques and a couple old farts agreeing with them. #sorrynotsorry
The Smith & Wesson Model 10-5, with a 4-inch "standard" barrel, fixed sights, and a blue steel finish, was my Police Department issued .38 Special duty revolver in 1971. The 4" standard or heavy barrel feature was pretty much standard at that time. Years later, our PD Training Division used our Model 10's as trade-ins on new .357 S&W Model 66 Revolvers. I really liked my original PD-issue, it was still being used by many agencies, so I purchased my Model 10 for 100-bucks for personal use. When my aim was true, that Model 10 could cloverleaf a 3-shot pattern on a B-27 Target., using the old .38 Special Police Load, a standard loaded, 158-gr. Lead Round Nose (LRN) bullet. The S&W Model 10 was a "legend" in police service revolvers in the 1960's and 70's. I owned a Colt Official Police .38 Revolver that had been given to me by my parents. This medium frame police service revolver had a 4-inch barrel, well worn blue steel finish, and a former Port Authority Police duty issue.It had been traded in, with other Colts, on new service revolvers, in mid-1971. A local gun store had purchased several of these trade-in Colt OP's for private sales. My Dad would pick the best of 7-used Colt OP's that the gun store had purchased, I carried that OP on duty for many years, after being authorized by the PD Admin to do so. The OP and the Model 10 reigned supreme in America for cop duty carry in the post war years. The Colt OP was discontinued in 1969 because of the high labor cost and required precision fitting and trigger-action manufacture demanded the attention of high dollar Colt Master Craftsman Wizards to produce the Colt. The S&W Model 10 was a double-action revolver that did not demand high dollar Master Craftsmen services. The S&W Corporate could sell large contracts of revolvers cheaper than Colt could. In post war times a labor union infected Colt. Labor prices increased causing product prices to climb to cover union demands, this caused Colt Contract Sales to disappear. S*W was offering their guns at lower prices and ultimately closed the door on Colt Contract Sales, the very lifeline of firearm makers. Colt did develop their J-frame Revolvers, to off set labor cost. These new design Colts did not require the services of high dollar craftsmen to manufacture. Gun parts in parts-bin was the path Colt followed, except they did not pass the cost savings to the buying customers. Their prices stayed high, and the few agencies still doing business with Colt would go away shortly later. I own a J-frame Official Police MK III .38, one of the part-bin put togethers. A tough, rugged duty revolver that I purchased used in 1990. Counter-sunk cylinder, and the best fixed sight features of most cop .38's. A "sight picture" is quick to obtain with the Mk III OP fixed sights. A coil-spring trigger-action in place of the V-Spring of the earlier I-frame Colts. Decent double-action pull and a very smooth single-action stroke. This rugged revolver had some assets for sure, but it never got close to the previous I-frame OP that Federal, State, and City Law Enforcement carried for many decades in pre and post-war times. The S&W Model 10 took that crown away in the 1950's. I know, cause I was there.
I agree with the narrator at the end: "But there is a price that must be paid for this. That price is thorough training, constantly practiced & regularly renewed on the range. In no other way can you buy the art & skill of fine marksmanship. So, learn the fundamentals of good shooting. Practice them regularly & diligently until they become an instinctive part of everything you do with your revolver." He got that part right.
For purposes pf substantiating my views, I was a Police Firearms Instructor and a Police Pistol Team Member for a number of years with a very large metropolitan police department and I have sent a lot of rounds downrange, a few in actual "combat" situations. Yes, opinions on what style of handgun is more suited to police work has changed over the years, as have opinions on what bullet design works best, but if practical knowledge and experience mean anything in this discussion here are a few thoughts from and old police "combat" vet: (1) it doesn't matter so much what kind of gun (or ammo ) you use as much as it does that you can hit your target… period, (2) semi autos are great as long as they don't jam (and revolvers rarely do!), and bullet design may be important, but neither the type of gun or the ammo used is as important as (guess what?) hitting the target. And, finally, shooting stances seem to change with the wind (as well as with what gun guru is talking) but the basics of marksmanship are immutable and timeless: sight alignment and trigger control reign supreme on the practice course and in the street, and no matter how much money you spend on the latest greatest gun (and attachments) you might as well be throwing rocks if you can't hit the target!
+Frederico Chilibreath Good post. I would add that the most important part of hitting the target is the research and practice that went on months or years before you were forced to pull the trigger on that handgun.
I agree with you 100%. I spent 35 years with a major metropolitan police department. I was also a firearms, tactics and self defense instructor for many decades. And like you I was a member of my departments rifle and pistol team. I came on the department in the 1970’s and was exposed to many of these old techniques. Unfortunately today all of the so called experts try to create their own “modern technique “. I consider most of them to be false prophets. The fundamentals and hits on target are the only things that count in a life threatening situation.
I agree with you to an extent. There's a reason not a single policing or enforcement agency do jot use revolvers anymore as there primary or secondary. Modern semis vastly out weigh in pros then cons then revolvers do. From higher mag capacity to accuracy. Stopping power arguement is horse shit because I've never met a student that wanted to take a 22lr to the face. I'd rather have 20 shots of 9 then 6 of any revolver cartridge
I don't. That's why I don't miss. He explained 95% of good revolver shooting in the first minute. Grip is 80%. Getting your trigger finger deep enough is 15%. The rest is just controlling heart rate and breathing.
Miculek competes in USPSA, IDPA, Three Gun, and Steel Challenge. He is a world champion in many disciplines. You can find a lot of his videos here on youtube.
Dad used his supervisor’s .38 revolver (retired PA State Police Major) to shoot an armed man who took his own attorney hostage in a courthouse back in 1974. Shooting distance was less than 30 feet and Dad was not hit from four shots fired at him; he credits this shooting technique. Dad was off that day and just dropped by his office at the courthouse to drop something off which is why he didn’t have his usual duty weapon.
Proper training and continuous practice with your weapon are the key to accurate placement of bullet to target, leading to your survival. It might appear old fashion, but it is still a proven technique.
1961 was when the USAF Air Police, later Security Police adopted the S&W M15 Combat Masterpiece .38spl Revolver. I carried the M15 from 1981 to 1988. The USAF Security Police converted over to the Beretta M9 9mm Pistol.
Most stops when shooting people are psychological -- the opponent stops fighting because he gives up or retreats, not wanting to be shot again, not because he's physically unable to continue. Animals don't react that way. So most of the time, a gut shot would probably work. I'd still go for the thorax myself, of course, but even a hit there will take a couple of minutes to achieve a PHYSICAL stop, unless you get the heart. A CNS hit's the only thing that will be instantaneous physically.
A fractured pelvis , and they're going down . Regardless of drugs , alcohol , or rage . A heart shot , or a major blood vessel in proximity thereof , they're non functional in seconds , not minutes . Since hunting parallels have been brought up , a deer hit through both shoulder blades and both lungs hits the ground face first where they stand .
I always wondered why people shot like this in old-school movies. It turns out this used to be the actual way they trained! It's interesting to me that they call out "Old West hip-shooting" as being inaccurate, yet argue that "modern" hip shooting is fundamentally different. How? Shooting without sights is always going to be more difficult than simply bringing the handgun up to eye level and aiming - a motion that takes negligibly longer to accomplish (see 15:45), yet makes all the difference in knowing exactly where the bullet will go. Normally, I am a big fan of learning from the "old school," but I think the art of handgun shooting had not been fully developed at this point. I admire the class and grit of these old-school officers, but as one other commenter put it, "thank God for Jeff Cooper!"
Not really. Hip firing and point shooting are legit techniques that are forgotten and neglected in today's trainings. William Fairbairne implemented these techniques in the most dangerous city of the world in the 20s - Shanghai. Jim Cirillo of the NYPD's Stakeout Squad won every single gunfight. Just think of well-trained archers shooting arrows without any aiming device and hitting every single time. And didn't you forget that point shooting is very common in home defense situation? It's 5 or 7 yards, not 100 yards.
. You have your historical Presecident mixed up . Shanghai Municipal Police under the guidance of Wm Fairburn variously used 1911 , Colt .380 , and Webley Revolvers . Essentially along ethnic lines : 1911 for European/ North American Constables , .380 for Chinese , and Webly for Sikh . The smaller stature Chinese Constables , the .380 fit them better . Most of the Sikh were mostly former British Army service , and accustomed to their .455's . Cirillo briefly used his National Match 1911 until the bosses nixed it . Otherwise , S&W M10 , and a pair of Colt Detective Specials as " New York Reload(s) " . Plus 12ga shotguns and M-1 Carbine .
In real life, stuff the to happen at very short ranges. There is simple no need for sights if you're good at instinctive shooting. I don't care how fast you are at lining up a good sight picture, the other guy will hit you first if he's good at point shooting. Good thing most criminal aren't and the extra few tenths of a second it takes to use your sights don't matter one bit.
Index and Trigger Control. These are the two foundations. Just how you 'index' depends on you. Be it sighted fire (front sight focus, flash sight picture, shooting out of the notch, etc.., squaring the body, seeing the slide in your peripheral vision, etc.. and trigger control!!! You must have these two things. Notice these guys square their body to the target. The gun is centrally aligned. This works well at close range but much harder to do at longer range. It is wise for you to master both close up hip shooting and some form of sighted fire. And LOTS OF PRACTICE, even in this ammo shortage!
Yup! I see where the YT content creators get their idea for a long introduction. Every informational film from the 40s through the 60s that I've seen takes FOREVER for the content to be presented after the long intro.
Read a must-have-in-your-collection No Secomd Place Winner by Bill "SixShooter" Jordan. He was the real deal. Also, a Rifleman features and books by Skeeter Skelton. These guys will teach you knowledge about gunfighting.
at about 1:43 the video shows 2, 4" revolvers and holsters, similar to what FBI agents of the time were carrying. can anybody identify the holsters and possibly who makes a holster like that today? thanks. (I just got a S&W 15-4 and want to carry it.)
That's a no frills basic fast draw holster. You can find em on Ebay for as little as 50 bucks, or from any number of leather shops for any price range out there.
Buying online , Look closely at the pictures of the stiching on the holster. Make sure they’re double stitched and look closely at the details. Some of the holsters are sub-par.
While reloading with a magazine is certainly faster than reloading a revolver, you might be surprised at how fast a revolver can be reloaded using speedloaders or moonclips.
Nuclear Vault, Thank you very much for uploading this video! I have the following two questions though: 1) Are the assertions made in this video still valid or are the techniques antiquated? 2) Is there a video explaining the drawing technique here, including the type of holster needed? Thank you very much in advance for taking the time to answer my questions.
Modern law enforcement is returning to the concept of focusing on the target rather than the sites for close range combat situations. Shooting from the hip as shown in the video uses less time than bringing the gun to eye level and focusing on the front site and is very effective at close ranges.
The issue is some trainers haaaaate hip shots, I ve been reprimanded because I did hip shots and I was very accurate and they did not want me influencing other. Fast forward training qith another department they practiced hip shots every training and were impressed with my hip shots.
We used to call this "point shooting" but I'm not sure why. Essentially, look at the target and aim with muscle memory and peripheral vision. It takes _a lot_ of practice to get accurate, but it is fast.
Point the weapon like you point your finger . Snap shooting that Fairburn ,Sykes ,Applegate developed. But Applegate found in a archive a unsent letter from Wild Bill Hickock where Hickock described his shooting in those terms .
S W .38 Spl Bodyguard coming this Friday. Been watching videos on revolvers all week and I cant wait to break her in. Any recommendations on +p SD ammo?
Recall this style of shooting developed from the old dueling style, bladed towards your opponent, standing straight up. At the signal, both men raised an arm and fired. Shooting from the hip was popular 1850s(?) to 1930s… much faster with a single action pistol than todays aiming. On sweeping their thigh with the revolver, different due the 8-12 lb trigger vs the 2.5 lb triggers in todays bottom feeders.
Ducking immediately shakes a upright " Weaver stance" in modern times this would definitely work....against moderately trained attackers do to their initial aim adjustment time...
Ducking is much more instinctive when people are shooting at you then standing in the weaver stance, not too mention safer. Its a shame people don't give this guy more credit. Try reading, shooting to live, all based on real world police work...
There's so many things here that I see that goes against modern technique. During the draw sequence, it appears as though the shooter is covering himself with the gun. Why the crouch? Will that help to evade incoming rounds? Why one hand shooting? Why not two hand for stability? The holster being used appears not to secure the weapon from someone else grabbing the weapon and gaining control of it. This is effectively point shooting at close range.
10:40, when the burglars exit setting off the burglar alarm, blow on your whistle to let them know there is a cop present and exactly where you are....
This info is as relevant today as when originally filmed. Solid advice on handgun handling that applies to any handgun. To quickly see if a shooter has solid handgun fundamentals, hand them a double action only (DAO) revolver and watch them fire. Their handgun weaknesses will be instantly revealed. ALL military / Law Enforcement / Security personnel required to carry handguns on duty, should be trained on DAO revolvers and required to master the DAO revolver in training before advancing to the automatic pistol, NO exception. Sadly, the officers shooting in this old video would shoot rings around most modern Law Enforcement. They were far better trained in handgun fundamentals than is done in today's training methods.
We can laugh at this, but point shooting can definitely save lives, just probably not quite like this, but the fundamentals are the same. Knowing where your gun is and how it will fire without looking down the sights is something you should be confident in doing. You don't have to shoot a quarter out of the air or anything, but this is a skill even modern shooters can take things away from.
this is one hand shooting. What i like in the manner it is done is that the weak hand stays down not what the modern practice of putting the weak hand clip on the breast in close fist as stabilizer. At least this should be the firing manner if we simulate the weak hand wounded and can not be clip. They can hit their target w/o clipping their other hand. I think this is the better way to practice one hand for simulating firing while injured in one arm and i can still hit.
Still just as relevant today as it was 50 years ago for anyone learning home defence techniques with a revolver. Personally, I think you can’t beat an 8 shot magnum .357 revolver for home defence, as is it’s far quicker to deploy than a pistol that needs to be racked first
It really isn't. There is no reason whatsoever to not get both hands on the gun and the gun to eye level. Compare anyone using this technique to anyone using modern technique and you'll see the times are the same but accuracy is greatly improved. Not to mention the crouched position puts your head exactly where your opponent is likely to be shooting - your prior apparent center of mass.
Unless perhaps you have very young children in the house, there's no reason to keep a home defense pistol unloaded, making deployment speed the same as with a revolver.
The scene at 3:00, shows the perp anticipating the cops questioning/confronting him, but he doesn't really do anything to get an advantage; he's wearing a shoulder holster we're told, and he could have easily slipped his hand under his jacket and already had a firing grip on his gun as the police approached. It's typical to shine the best possible light on the belt holster, but it's really an advantage only if you are standing, and already facing the potential threat.
I love this. Most guys don't realize that when you are shot at you will instinctively crouch. This is what theweaverstance community never gets. I'm disappointed fairbairns teaching where lost over time. However, his book shooting to live is still available. It was the first if its kind and completely based on real world experience.
Humans do not have instincts besides suckling. Everything else is learned. The Fairbairn method was rightfully abandoned because it demonstrably doesn't work.
It kind of is -- although it was erroneously believed to be the pinnacle of defensive shooting at the time, we now know that much of what is shown here has been rendered completely obsolete by modern combat handgunnery techniques.
You may hit the aorta with a thorax shot, then again you may not. You may hit the spine with a gut shot. I'm not disagreeing with you. I'd rather hit the thorax too. But to this day the FBI qualifying target includes the abdominal area as well as the upper thorax as the target. A shot there IS likely to be effective most of the time. I'm not saying it's better. I'm saying it's not useless like you seem to think.
Yes. But its more modern and wasn't as common back in the day. Training to shoot one handed and with the weak hand may come in handy if the other hand isn't usable or wounded.
@@lylesmith5079 Lol. A "handgun" only means it can be fired with one hand, but there's nothing prohibiting a shooter from using both hands, at his own discretion.
I wouldn't want to get shot with a BB gun. Doesn't mean it's as effective as a service pistol. Same applies to gut shots; they'll probably kill the target, but the odds of stopping the bad guy are much better when going for the thoracic triangle. I figure going for the triangle is probably going to be more effective than gut-shooting the bad guy. Or, to put it another way, when I'm hunting, I go for the heart/lungs/CNS of the deer. Why would I do differently on someone trying to kill me?
Cops shouldn't be shooting to kill and neither should you, in a self defense situation. You shoot to stop the threat first and foremost. Threat stops, shooting stops. If you're shooting to kill, especially if you verbally confirm you shot to kill, that's no longer manslaughter, its murder.
@@danvondrasek I never said that I was shooting to kill. I said that I was going after structures that, if damaged/destroyed, will reliably stop an attacker quickly and efficiently. That means CNS (brain/spine) or the cardiovascular system (heart/lungs). I used the deer comparison to point out how hunters are taught to quickly bring down their target instead of going for limbs; the same principle applies despite the differing contexts. My violence stops when the threat has stopped. I'm not going to deliver a coup de grace or other over-the-line tactics since that takes the situation from defense to manslaughter at best or murder at most.
@@RaderizDorret yes, heart and lungs are what's taught to most hunters and police/military. No one aims for the head outside of movies and if they're lucky, some snipers or marksmen might if their targets are within a few hundred meters. Otherwise the head is too small of a target, especially at a distance or when your body is full of adrenaline, like during self defense with a firearm
This man, fairbairn doesnt get the credit he deserves. His book, shooting to live, I still available, and all based on real world experience. The weaver community doesn't get that in a real situation, ducking and pointing is much more natural and safer. I never get how we could have branched of...
I’m right handed and carry shoulder holster under left arm. I feel the draw is much smoother than from the hip. Plus if I need to hit the ground or get knocked to the ground it’s much easer to draw from the shoulder holster. Also shoulder holsters are guarded by the left arm, make it difficult for a perpetrator to take it from me by surprise…
Not sure but one handed shooting doesn't appear to afford much accuracy due to a firearms recoil.. Schools of thought differ on how one should handle a firearm when shooting revolvers and semi auto pistols. Two handed shooting offers better control/accuracy than one handed. Granted there may be situations where you may have to fire single handed.
Why, you didn't duck when people shot at you. Its much safer, and more natural then the weaver stance. I'm sad people don't appreciate this stuff more. Have you read fairbairns book shooting to live. All based on actual reall life situations. Somewhere along the line this hobo came along preaching bullshit and everybody embraced the weaver style. Fairbairn and Sykes don't get the appreciation they deserve...
It's good to see the FBI for what it was created for, not to spy on citizens or in the intrapment of law biting citizens or political , sorry folks I had to throw that in.
They’re basically he KGB now. State Security, protecting the regime from embarrassing disclosures. They ever find dirt on that Hunter Biden laptop they’ve had for 4 years now?
Don't use this method. Muzzle crosses his leg everytime with that "bowling" style draw. USBP taught us to draw straight up and point toward target immediately. Then use that other hand to steady the gun. Get the gun to eye level soon as you can.
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My issued thirty-eight saved me three times over the course of my 30 years on the street. This training works!
.357 would’ve saved it better. .38’s been obsolete since 1911 and certainly since the 30’s
Found the guy trotting out the horseshit. “Saved him better” “Obsolete”. LOL
@@byutube4360 or maybe the recoil would have meant he missed follow up shots
@@byutube4360 Saved is saved. I have no way of knowing if magnum rounds would have worked better or caused me to miss due to increased recoil. I policed in a densely populated city and collateral damage was a big concern. Bigger is not always better.
@@byutube4360 WTF gun shop nonsense is this. .38s are good rounds
That man in the video is well trained, even if antiquated. I've been shooting for about 34 years and practice several techniques, including the ones practices here. You never know when you may have to take a one handed shot with your weak hand. My father was trained in the old way and is very impressive at the range with it, thus teaching me to do the same. No matter what you know, or think you know, it's the shot that counts and you wouldn't be laughing at a 158 grain lead bullet hitting you squarely today. Prepare for whatever may come your way. Modern methods focus on the ideal situation too often.
I'm not sure what modern methods you're speaking of, but every single modern non competition firearms training school out there teaches you how to properly handle and manipulate your firearm in any condition, not just the preferred ones. That's why at a bare minimum, they all have a VTAC barricade. That vtac wall alone offers dozens of less than ideal shooting platforms that can be run on either hand.
Sounds more just like you're trying to toot your own horn here, and give yourself an out for watching this video for anything other than entertainment. Because if you're actually drilling on outdated shooting methods, I feel sorry for your dependents.
or a 125gr at 1440 fps
DannyWarlegs I’m pretty sure he is a civilian and so am I . Humor me here; wouldn’t it be quicker to draw and hip fire rather than drawing all the way up to your face? I’m asking a genuine question because I don’t know. Also, would a technique like the one shown in the video work for a semi automatic handgun.
@@itscwillis1523 Hip firing is tough. Only use it at 10 yards or less. Try 5 yards at first. If you ever make it into an outdoor range, try unholstering and hip firing the first shot. Reholster and then repeat. It's a good way to learn to do it when you don't have the nearly unlimited ammo supply that a law enforcement officer has at their disposal. Hip firing is something you will be doing if you are fending off someone with your off-hand. If you can do it at 5-10 yards, you can do it at close quarters distance when an assailant is physically attacking you.
@@Chrondo702a sorry but in my house nobody is authorized to shoot unless they’re on target or pretty damn close (12 gauge)
In no world are any of you guys right about firing from the hip. It should be a very very very last resort.
I for one, will not be dislodging any bullets from my daughters nursery or dog house because some YT video of terrible techniques and a couple old farts agreeing with them. #sorrynotsorry
I admire anyone who can shoot accurately in double action with a revolver
Thank you.
Depends on the revolver and the automatic. S&W model 10 has a lighter DA trigger than a Beretta 92.
And wasting time squatting on the floor.
Well they’re just accurate at all those are all gut shots 😂
The Smith & Wesson Model 10-5, with a 4-inch "standard" barrel, fixed sights, and a blue steel finish, was my Police Department issued .38 Special duty revolver in 1971. The 4" standard or heavy barrel feature was pretty much standard at that time. Years later, our PD Training Division used our Model 10's as trade-ins on new .357 S&W Model 66 Revolvers. I really liked my original PD-issue, it was still being used by many agencies, so I purchased my Model 10 for 100-bucks for personal use. When my aim was true, that Model 10 could cloverleaf a 3-shot pattern on a B-27 Target., using the old .38 Special Police Load, a standard loaded, 158-gr. Lead Round Nose (LRN) bullet. The S&W Model 10 was a "legend" in police service revolvers in the 1960's and 70's. I owned a Colt Official Police .38 Revolver that had been given to me by my parents. This medium frame police service revolver had a 4-inch barrel, well worn blue steel finish, and a former Port Authority Police duty issue.It had been traded in, with other Colts, on new service revolvers, in mid-1971. A local gun store had purchased several of these trade-in Colt OP's for private sales. My Dad would pick the best of 7-used Colt OP's that the gun store had purchased, I carried that OP on duty for many years, after being authorized by the PD Admin to do so. The OP and the Model 10 reigned supreme in America for cop duty carry in the post war years. The Colt OP was discontinued in 1969 because of the high labor cost and required precision fitting and trigger-action manufacture demanded the attention of high dollar Colt Master Craftsman Wizards to produce the Colt. The S&W Model 10 was a double-action revolver that did not demand high dollar Master Craftsmen services. The S&W Corporate could sell large contracts of revolvers cheaper than Colt could. In post war times a labor union infected Colt. Labor prices increased causing product prices to climb to cover union demands, this caused Colt Contract Sales to disappear. S*W was offering their guns at lower prices and ultimately closed the door on Colt Contract Sales, the very lifeline of firearm makers. Colt did develop their J-frame Revolvers, to off set labor cost. These new design Colts did not require the services of high dollar craftsmen to manufacture. Gun parts in parts-bin was the path Colt followed, except they did not pass the cost savings to the buying customers. Their prices stayed high, and the few agencies still doing business with Colt would go away shortly later. I own a J-frame Official Police MK III .38, one of the part-bin put togethers. A tough, rugged duty revolver that I purchased used in 1990. Counter-sunk cylinder, and the best fixed sight features of most cop .38's. A "sight picture" is quick to obtain with the Mk III OP fixed sights. A coil-spring trigger-action in place of the V-Spring of the earlier I-frame Colts. Decent double-action pull and a very smooth single-action stroke. This rugged revolver had some assets for sure, but it never got close to the previous I-frame OP that Federal, State, and City Law Enforcement carried for many decades in pre and post-war times. The S&W Model 10 took that crown away in the 1950's. I know, cause I was there.
Damn cops back in the day were cool as hell. Apparently looking cool was a mandatory part of training.
They were respected too
Yup
Today in society in general the norm is for men to dress & look like clowns.
Right!? Seriously ! Class with packin-sass
@@thatonescramblergee I wonder what the demographics of the country and police were back then
I agree with the narrator at the end:
"But there is a price that must be paid for this. That price is thorough training, constantly practiced & regularly renewed on the range. In no other way can you buy the art & skill of fine marksmanship. So, learn the fundamentals of good shooting. Practice them regularly & diligently until they become an instinctive part of everything you do with your revolver."
He got that part right.
For purposes pf substantiating my views, I was a Police Firearms Instructor and a Police Pistol Team Member for a number of years with a very large metropolitan police department and I have sent a lot of rounds downrange, a few in actual "combat" situations. Yes, opinions on what style of handgun is more suited to police work has changed over the years, as have opinions on what bullet design works best, but if practical knowledge and experience mean anything in this discussion here are a few thoughts from and old police "combat" vet: (1) it doesn't matter so much what kind of gun (or ammo ) you use as much as it does that you can hit your target… period, (2) semi autos are great as long as they don't jam (and revolvers rarely do!), and bullet design may be important, but neither the type of gun or the ammo used is as important as (guess what?) hitting the target. And, finally, shooting stances seem to change with the wind (as well as with what gun guru is talking) but the basics of marksmanship are immutable and timeless: sight alignment and trigger control reign supreme on the practice course and in the street, and no matter how much money you spend on the latest greatest gun (and attachments) you might as well be throwing rocks if you can't hit the target!
+Frederico Chilibreath Good post.
I would add that the most important part of hitting the target is the research and practice that went on months or years before you were forced to pull the trigger on that handgun.
I agree with you 100%. I spent 35 years with a major metropolitan police department. I was also a firearms, tactics and self defense instructor for many decades. And like you I was a member of my departments rifle and pistol team. I came on the department in the 1970’s and was exposed to many of these old techniques. Unfortunately today all of the so called experts try to create their own “modern technique “. I consider most of them to be false prophets. The fundamentals and hits on target are the only things that count in a life threatening situation.
Glocks are more reliable than even the fabled revolver....its true
I agree with you to an extent. There's a reason not a single policing or enforcement agency do jot use revolvers anymore as there primary or secondary. Modern semis vastly out weigh in pros then cons then revolvers do. From higher mag capacity to accuracy. Stopping power arguement is horse shit because I've never met a student that wanted to take a 22lr to the face. I'd rather have 20 shots of 9 then 6 of any revolver cartridge
@@michealwilliams7757 not to mention reloading
These old training films are awesome!!
This is gold ... we shoot differently today but this still important to know and good to practice.
I don't. That's why I don't miss. He explained 95% of good revolver shooting in the first minute. Grip is 80%. Getting your trigger finger deep enough is 15%. The rest is just controlling heart rate and breathing.
@@zdub8438take some force on force
Miculek competes in USPSA, IDPA, Three Gun, and Steel Challenge. He is a world champion in many disciplines. You can find a lot of his videos here on youtube.
Every time I think about old informational videos, the opening music to this plays in my head. Please make it stop
Than you for loading these classic videos. They are always a pleasure to watch ^_^
Bought a 44 bulldog revovler to carry, good teaching. Based
Dad used his supervisor’s .38 revolver (retired PA State Police Major) to shoot an armed man who took his own attorney hostage in a courthouse back in 1974. Shooting distance was less than 30 feet and Dad was not hit from four shots fired at him; he credits this shooting technique. Dad was off that day and just dropped by his office at the courthouse to drop something off which is why he didn’t have his usual duty weapon.
Bullshit 😂
Proper training and continuous practice with your weapon are the key to accurate placement of bullet to target, leading to your survival. It might appear old fashion, but it is still a proven technique.
True!
1961 was when the USAF Air Police, later Security Police adopted the S&W M15 Combat Masterpiece .38spl Revolver. I carried the M15 from 1981 to 1988. The USAF Security Police converted over to the Beretta M9 9mm Pistol.
Most stops when shooting people are psychological -- the opponent stops fighting because he gives up or retreats, not wanting to be shot again, not because he's physically unable to continue. Animals don't react that way. So most of the time, a gut shot would probably work. I'd still go for the thorax myself, of course, but even a hit there will take a couple of minutes to achieve a PHYSICAL stop, unless you get the heart. A CNS hit's the only thing that will be instantaneous physically.
A fractured pelvis , and they're going down . Regardless of drugs , alcohol , or rage .
A heart shot , or a major blood vessel in proximity thereof , they're non functional in seconds , not minutes .
Since hunting parallels have been brought up , a deer hit through both shoulder blades and both lungs hits the ground face first where they stand .
I always wondered why people shot like this in old-school movies. It turns out this used to be the actual way they trained!
It's interesting to me that they call out "Old West hip-shooting" as being inaccurate, yet argue that "modern" hip shooting is fundamentally different. How?
Shooting without sights is always going to be more difficult than simply bringing the handgun up to eye level and aiming - a motion that takes negligibly longer to accomplish (see 15:45), yet makes all the difference in knowing exactly where the bullet will go.
Normally, I am a big fan of learning from the "old school," but I think the art of handgun shooting had not been fully developed at this point. I admire the class and grit of these old-school officers, but as one other commenter put it, "thank God for Jeff Cooper!"
It has been developed, people didn't shoot 1911s like this, there's videos dating back to ww2. LEO just likes doing dumb shit.
Not really. Hip firing and point shooting are legit techniques that are forgotten and neglected in today's trainings. William Fairbairne implemented these techniques in the most dangerous city of the world in the 20s - Shanghai. Jim Cirillo of the NYPD's Stakeout Squad won every single gunfight. Just think of well-trained archers shooting arrows without any aiming device and hitting every single time. And didn't you forget that point shooting is very common in home defense situation? It's 5 or 7 yards, not 100 yards.
@@hoppinggnomethe4154 Except Cirillo used .32 08 Colt autos.
. You have your historical Presecident mixed up .
Shanghai Municipal Police under the guidance of Wm Fairburn variously used 1911 , Colt .380 , and Webley Revolvers . Essentially along ethnic lines : 1911 for European/ North American Constables , .380 for Chinese , and Webly for Sikh . The smaller stature Chinese Constables , the .380 fit them better . Most of the Sikh were mostly former British Army service , and accustomed to their .455's .
Cirillo briefly used his National Match 1911 until the bosses nixed it . Otherwise , S&W M10 , and a pair of Colt Detective Specials as " New York Reload(s) " . Plus 12ga shotguns and M-1 Carbine .
In real life, stuff the to happen at very short ranges. There is simple no need for sights if you're good at instinctive shooting. I don't care how fast you are at lining up a good sight picture, the other guy will hit you first if he's good at point shooting. Good thing most criminal aren't and the extra few tenths of a second it takes to use your sights don't matter one bit.
Ce document est une merveille. Merci.
Index and Trigger Control. These are the two foundations. Just how you 'index' depends on you. Be it sighted fire (front sight focus, flash sight picture, shooting out of the notch, etc.., squaring the body, seeing the slide in your peripheral vision, etc.. and trigger control!!! You must have these two things. Notice these guys square their body to the target. The gun is centrally aligned. This works well at close range but much harder to do at longer range. It is wise for you to master both close up hip shooting and some form of sighted fire. And LOTS OF PRACTICE, even in this ammo shortage!
In a self-defense situation you'll need close range shots. Long-range is for police/military work.
Thank god that we have TH-cam experts to set us straight!
That electronic dueling range is so cool!
Back when a vehicle provided any cover at all.
engine block should still help no?
Yea because .38 special sucks ass 😂
That intro gave me chills.
Yup! I see where the YT content creators get their idea for a long introduction. Every informational film from the 40s through the 60s that I've seen takes FOREVER for the content to be presented after the long intro.
Read a must-have-in-your-collection
No Secomd Place Winner by
Bill "SixShooter" Jordan.
He was the real deal.
Also, a Rifleman features and books by Skeeter Skelton.
These guys will teach you knowledge about gunfighting.
Rex Applegate has an excellent discussion that seems more focused on the development of this style.
at about 1:43 the video shows 2, 4" revolvers and holsters, similar to what FBI agents of the time were carrying. can anybody identify the holsters and possibly who makes a holster like that today?
thanks. (I just got a S&W 15-4 and want to carry it.)
That's a no frills basic fast draw holster. You can find em on Ebay for as little as 50 bucks, or from any number of leather shops for any price range out there.
The holster was made by Heiser, and the model is 457. I have one on my S&W Mod. 10 and Colt Official Police. They are sold on ebay once in a while.
Tom three persons, design, it looks like.
Buying online , Look closely at the pictures of the stiching on the holster. Make sure they’re double stitched and look closely at the details. Some of the holsters are sub-par.
While reloading with a magazine is certainly faster than reloading a revolver, you might be surprised at how fast a revolver can be reloaded using speedloaders or moonclips.
Jerry Miculek probably has the fastest revolver reload in the world.
Get off his nuts, dude.
Nuclear Vault,
Thank you very much for uploading this video!
I have the following two questions though:
1) Are the assertions made in this video still valid or are the techniques antiquated?
2) Is there a video explaining the drawing technique here, including the type of holster needed?
Thank you very much in advance for taking the time to answer my questions.
very old school things have sure changed
Modern law enforcement is returning to the concept of focusing on the target rather than the sites for close range combat situations. Shooting from the hip as shown in the video uses less time than bringing the gun to eye level and focusing on the front site and is very effective at close ranges.
The issue is some trainers haaaaate hip shots, I ve been reprimanded because I did hip shots and I was very accurate and they did not want me influencing other. Fast forward training qith another department they practiced hip shots every training and were impressed with my hip shots.
No one legitimate is advocating shooting from the hip. That is not the same as having a target focus but using sights.
No law enforcement department is training to shoot from the hip. I’m embarrassed anyone would write this
We used to call this "point shooting" but I'm not sure why. Essentially, look at the target and aim with muscle memory and peripheral vision. It takes _a lot_ of practice to get accurate, but it is fast.
Point the weapon like you point your finger . Snap shooting that Fairburn ,Sykes ,Applegate developed. But Applegate found in a archive a unsent letter from Wild Bill Hickock where Hickock described his shooting in those terms .
Yes when you are shooting at a stagnant target while stationary. That isn’t how gun fights work .
this video couldnt have imagine the criminals with a 40 round switched Gloc and body armor
S W .38 Spl Bodyguard coming this Friday. Been watching videos on revolvers all week and I cant wait to break her in. Any recommendations on +p SD ammo?
Gold dots and Hornady critical defense.
Silvertips are decent as well
고대로부터 내려오는 기마자세가 정말 쓰잘데기 없다고 생각했는데 여기에 쓰일줄이야.... 조상님들의 지혜에 감탄을 하고 갑니다. 그냥 아무 드립이나 해봤어요. 영상 잘 보고 갑니다~~!
Those repeating scenes with the cops and robbers reminded me of the movie Groundhog's Day lol
I'm glad this film finally found a family in the air Force 😊
Recall this style of shooting developed from the old dueling style, bladed towards your opponent, standing straight up. At the signal, both men raised an arm and fired. Shooting from the hip was popular 1850s(?) to 1930s… much faster with a single action pistol than todays aiming. On sweeping their thigh with the revolver, different due the 8-12 lb trigger vs the 2.5 lb triggers in todays bottom feeders.
Things sure have changed imagine doing this at the range
Put this with rap in the background and its amazing
My EDC is a pre ‘83 S&W Model 10-7. I’m gonna start training these methods. My logic may be flawed, but if it worked back then, it can work today
Well, the goal is hitting the target. Whatever you do to accomplish that is a win.
Hitting the target before the target hits you.
Ducking immediately shakes a upright " Weaver stance" in modern times this would definitely work....against moderately trained attackers do to their initial aim adjustment time...
EXCELLENT.
Lol I find this funny. The way they swing their elbow way out when drawing 😂. Old school guys please tell me Why did they teach that?
I like how they properly call a revolver pistol and gun.
After all the latest fads in shooting techniques (and it is very annoying), it’s refreshing to see what actually matters.
What do you mean? Hip shooting and not using sights? The video is interesting but I think there is a reason they dont teach this anymore.
Ducking is much more instinctive when people are shooting at you then standing in the weaver stance, not too mention safer. Its a shame people don't give this guy more credit. Try reading, shooting to live, all based on real world police work...
@@benjaminboot2340 Great comment, thanks
There's so many things here that I see that goes against modern technique. During the draw sequence, it appears as though the shooter is covering himself with the gun. Why the crouch? Will that help to evade incoming rounds? Why one hand shooting? Why not two hand for stability? The holster being used appears not to secure the weapon from someone else grabbing the weapon and gaining control of it. This is effectively point shooting at close range.
10:40, when the burglars exit setting off the burglar alarm, blow on your whistle to let them know there is a cop present and exactly where you are....
This info is as relevant today as when originally filmed. Solid advice on handgun handling that applies to any handgun. To quickly see if a shooter has solid handgun fundamentals, hand them a double action only (DAO) revolver and watch them fire. Their handgun weaknesses will be instantly revealed. ALL military / Law Enforcement / Security personnel required to carry handguns on duty, should be trained on DAO revolvers and required to master the DAO revolver in training before advancing to the automatic pistol, NO exception. Sadly, the officers shooting in this old video would shoot rings around most modern Law Enforcement. They were far better trained in handgun fundamentals than is done in today's training methods.
My bad, I totally forgot about the stripper clips used in WW2 weapons.
what are they shooting? .177?
We can laugh at this, but point shooting can definitely save lives, just probably not quite like this, but the fundamentals are the same. Knowing where your gun is and how it will fire without looking down the sights is something you should be confident in doing. You don't have to shoot a quarter out of the air or anything, but this is a skill even modern shooters can take things away from.
cool!
this is one hand shooting. What i like in the manner it is done is that the weak hand stays down not what the modern practice of putting the weak hand clip on the breast in close fist as stabilizer. At least this should be the firing manner if we simulate the weak hand wounded and can not be clip. They can hit their target w/o clipping their other hand. I think this is the better way to practice one hand for simulating firing while injured in one arm and i can still hit.
One hand shooting was the thing until a man named Jack Weaver started using two hands and winning all the competitions.
Muito bom.
Not quite what Bill Jordan recommended. He was much more a proponent of shooting with the knees just bent slightly.
Still just as relevant today as it was 50 years ago for anyone learning home defence techniques with a revolver. Personally, I think you can’t beat an 8 shot magnum .357 revolver for home defence, as is it’s far quicker to deploy than a pistol that needs to be racked first
It really isn't. There is no reason whatsoever to not get both hands on the gun and the gun to eye level. Compare anyone using this technique to anyone using modern technique and you'll see the times are the same but accuracy is greatly improved. Not to mention the crouched position puts your head exactly where your opponent is likely to be shooting - your prior apparent center of mass.
Unless perhaps you have very young children in the house, there's no reason to keep a home defense pistol unloaded, making deployment speed the same as with a revolver.
The scene at 3:00, shows the perp anticipating the cops questioning/confronting him, but he doesn't really do anything to get an advantage; he's wearing a shoulder holster we're told, and he could have easily slipped his hand under his jacket and already had a firing grip on his gun as the police approached. It's typical to shine the best possible light on the belt holster, but it's really an advantage only if you are standing, and already facing the potential threat.
Wow. How they was wrong back in them times. But still very cool to see
Wrong? Bet they could out shoot you.
@@k9m42 i doubt it. They couldn’t outshoot a mediocre shooter today. Shit technique is shit
Des réflexes qui restent gravés dans le sang pendant toute votre vie ...
Thank you Jeff Cooper that we no longer use this awkward shooting style...
I love this. Most guys don't realize that when you are shot at you will instinctively crouch. This is what theweaverstance community never gets. I'm disappointed fairbairns teaching where lost over time. However, his book shooting to live is still available. It was the first if its kind and completely based on real world experience.
Humans do not have instincts besides suckling. Everything else is learned. The Fairbairn method was rightfully abandoned because it demonstrably doesn't work.
For anyone who knows was this video based on the teachings of Jelly Bryce
Makes you wonder about modern training when you see those groups at seven yards from the hip.
I still think that ass-out crouch is ridiculous
It kind of is -- although it was erroneously believed to be the pinnacle of defensive shooting at the time, we now know that much of what is shown here has been rendered completely obsolete by modern combat handgunnery techniques.
You may hit the aorta with a thorax shot, then again you may not. You may hit the spine with a gut shot. I'm not disagreeing with you. I'd rather hit the thorax too. But to this day the FBI qualifying target includes the abdominal area as well as the upper thorax as the target. A shot there IS likely to be effective most of the time. I'm not saying it's better. I'm saying it's not useless like you seem to think.
The abdomen is the largest target with less chance of a miss .
I was trained for a two hand hold. The lack of such in this video is aggravating for me. Always two hands and prepare to kill what it's pointed at.
The technique and this video is obviously outdated. You’re aggravated at a 60 year old video
Why don't they hold the guns with both hands when firing?
Isn't that more accurate ?
Yes. But its more modern and wasn't as common back in the day. Training to shoot one handed and with the weak hand may come in handy if the other hand isn't usable or wounded.
It's a hand gun, not a hands gun.
@@lylesmith5079 Lol. A "handgun" only means it can be fired with one hand, but there's nothing prohibiting a shooter from using both hands, at his own discretion.
1:45 "engravings provide no tactical advantage whatsoever"
He never said they did.
@@itscwillis1523 It's a Metal Gear Solid reference
Nick Taylor No.
@@itscwillis1523 I can personally confirm it was
privet cyka Blyat Your “personal confirmation” means nothing to me. You’re nobody to me. It was not.
bro how are they supposed to tell the grip is red when its black and white
"And kids, don't forget to wrap your finger all the way around your trigger, what you lose in accuracy, you gain in ......."
How times have changed now the cops go to jail and the criminals go free
I'd like to hear Miculek comment on this video ...
U know that mirror lied like hell.
Remember if you don't give the precinct bag man his money you could end up like this guy
As he sweeps his leg drawing from the hip
you're gay
Was the "ready to shit" position needed?
The Old School.
I wouldn't want to get shot with a BB gun. Doesn't mean it's as effective as a service pistol. Same applies to gut shots; they'll probably kill the target, but the odds of stopping the bad guy are much better when going for the thoracic triangle. I figure going for the triangle is probably going to be more effective than gut-shooting the bad guy. Or, to put it another way, when I'm hunting, I go for the heart/lungs/CNS of the deer. Why would I do differently on someone trying to kill me?
Ever been shot in the gut? How about the leg or arm. Getting hit is all that counts.
Cops shouldn't be shooting to kill and neither should you, in a self defense situation. You shoot to stop the threat first and foremost. Threat stops, shooting stops. If you're shooting to kill, especially if you verbally confirm you shot to kill, that's no longer manslaughter, its murder.
@@danvondrasek I never said that I was shooting to kill. I said that I was going after structures that, if damaged/destroyed, will reliably stop an attacker quickly and efficiently. That means CNS (brain/spine) or the cardiovascular system (heart/lungs). I used the deer comparison to point out how hunters are taught to quickly bring down their target instead of going for limbs; the same principle applies despite the differing contexts.
My violence stops when the threat has stopped. I'm not going to deliver a coup de grace or other over-the-line tactics since that takes the situation from defense to manslaughter at best or murder at most.
@@RaderizDorret yes, heart and lungs are what's taught to most hunters and police/military. No one aims for the head outside of movies and if they're lucky, some snipers or marksmen might if their targets are within a few hundred meters. Otherwise the head is too small of a target, especially at a distance or when your body is full of adrenaline, like during self defense with a firearm
They did not cut the burglars any slack back then.
4:22 or you know... you guys can use your goddammit sights.
Old sights are nearly useless compared to modern ones
@@alexm566 That's an exaggeration. Any sights are better than no sights.
J Edgar Hoover signed the forward letter. ..my how tactics have improved since this was filmed. . Enjoyed it just the same. 🇺🇸
This man, fairbairn doesnt get the credit he deserves. His book, shooting to live, I still available, and all based on real world experience. The weaver community doesn't get that in a real situation, ducking and pointing is much more natural and safer. I never get how we could have branched of...
Wow. Look at that "bowling" draw and sweeping his own thigh.
I’m right handed and carry shoulder holster under left arm. I feel the draw is much smoother than from the hip. Plus if I need to hit the ground or get knocked to the ground it’s much easer to draw from the shoulder holster. Also shoulder holsters are guarded by the left arm, make it difficult for a perpetrator to take it from me by surprise…
Whoa. lol. What a trip back in time.
Not sure but one handed shooting doesn't appear to afford much accuracy due to a firearms recoil.. Schools of thought differ on how one should handle a firearm when shooting revolvers and semi auto pistols. Two handed shooting offers better control/accuracy than one handed. Granted there may be situations where you may have to fire single handed.
All that hip position shooting stance is comic gold and so wrong.Looks like rimfire they are shooting or blanks maybe.Does have a few good points .
Your barrel crosses the leg at one point.
I'm really glad this BS was abandoned before I got on the job in the 1980s.
30 years of Policing and I still laugh at this. Times do change.
Why, you didn't duck when people shot at you. Its much safer, and more natural then the weaver stance. I'm sad people don't appreciate this stuff more. Have you read fairbairns book shooting to live. All based on actual reall life situations. Somewhere along the line this hobo came along preaching bullshit and everybody embraced the weaver style. Fairbairn and Sykes don't get the appreciation they deserve...
Everybody has a plan, until they get punched in the mouth...by Jerry Miculek.
Disclaimer:
No FBI agents in this film participated in the coverup of the JFK assassination.
Back then the ammunition was very weak in comparison to todays ammunition.
Where tho hand shooting
Loving the lack of using sights and how they think gut-shooting a target is a "good hit".
it's called magazine...clips were for pre-1930s pistols.
Magazine shmagazine. Man there are bunch of wankers on the internet.
I love revolvers, but no way i'm using that stiff grandpa form.
It's good to see the FBI for what it was created for, not to spy on citizens or in the intrapment of law biting citizens or political , sorry folks I had to throw that in.
They’re basically he KGB now. State Security, protecting the regime from embarrassing disclosures. They ever find dirt on that Hunter Biden laptop they’ve had for 4 years now?
Hmmm. The .38 revolver can be used to save a life?! That weapon system has made more evil men permanently good than any other in history.
Don't use this method. Muzzle crosses his leg everytime with that "bowling" style draw.
USBP taught us to draw straight up and point toward target immediately. Then use that other hand to steady the gun.
Get the gun to eye level soon as you can.