CATL M3P Deep Dive // The Manganese Demons
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 พ.ค. 2024
- In this video I'll do a deep dive in CATL's M3P chemistry, which is an LMFP chemistry with some additional dopants. LMFP increases the energy density of LFP by 15-20% by adding some additional manganese. The question is, if that's how simple it is, why didn't this happen before? In short, it's manganese demons like Jahn-Teller effects and dissolution issues.
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Timeline
00:00 Introduction
01:25 LMFP is LFP Doped with Manganese
02:14 Challenge #1 // Electronic Conductivity
03:17 Challenge #2 // Jahn-Teller Effects
04:47 Challenge #3 // Dissolution
05:26 How M3P Solves the Jahn-Teller Effects
07:00 Challenge #4 // Ionic Conductivity
09:01 How Particle Design Solves the Dissolution Issues
12:24 Summary
Intro Music by Dyalla: Homer Said - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
![🔴 [TRỰC TIẾP] Tứ Xuyên (Trung Quốc) VS U20 Thái Lan | Cúp VTV9 - Bình Điền 2024 | JET STUDIO](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bguJ41PcW0c/mqdefault.jpg)
Note: The doping elements are added to Nickel cathodes for different reasons.
For example: Instead of the crystal structure distorting and twisting, it collapses like bookshelves.
If you're curious about that, this video might help:
th-cam.com/video/2DIPqm7yVSM/w-d-xo.htmlsi=6h3dA0halBDPXUuB
One biggie with this chemistry is that it should work very well with sodium ions which would make the batteries a lot cheaper, especially for stationary or non EV use.❤
Im not sure about most things in life, but one thing I'm certain about is anyone watching videos on this channel, and not at the absolute minimum, leaving a thumbs up, needs to reevaluate themselves... We must support Jordan in every way possible. The value he brings to the community is incredible.
Thank you! I appreciate that 🤠
Patreon revenues overall have fallen by about 50% over the past 2 years - despite almost double the subscribers.
Getting close to break even now in terms of living expenses. I don't really want to do anything else though.
Great point! I joined Patreon just now before starting the video. Thanks Jordan!
Agreed; I watched one vid and subscribed. The physics insights are phenomenal.
10 hours in and over 13k views. All just to hear some guy go on about batteries.... Must be something to it. :) Thanks for all the work you do.
lol, you're most welcome!
🙋♂️THANKS JORDAN AND YOUR SUPPORTERS,FOR EXPLAINING THIS,FOR US LAYPEOPLE TO COMPREHEND 🤔💚💚💚
A 15% improvement to energy density at the cost of up to half the potential cycle life… that’s not necessarily a trade-off I would take, even as fanatical as I am about the many virtues of weight savings.
Yeah, it's very much a matter of use case and what you want out of the product/how you market it. Horses for courses.
I went to my calculator about this. Only 2000 cycles at 250 miles each is 500,000 miles. That should be more than enough for any non commercial user. For me, that represents about about 35 years of driving. With LFP's 3- 4000 cycles represents over 50 years. This brings me to a question about how much the battery is still worth when the rest of the car is a bit shabby after 15years. The usable capacity should still be about 85% of say a 60 kw LFP Tesla. That's the same as 4 power walls with probably 1500 cycles still to go. That 15 year old car still holds a lot of practical value.
@@markumbers5362
Perhaps it’s just my bias, but my family keeps a lot of classic cars, so knowing that major components won’t necessarily crap out after only about two decades is actually pretty reassuring.
@@Jjames763I understand emotional attachments for the old days. I have plenty but I have never understood why anyone likes burning fossil fuels in an internal combustion engine..It pollutes, smells horrible, is noisy, requires lots of maintenance and is ultimately temporary. I know it has been a stepping stone to what we have now but it is a stepping stone I'm glad to have behind me.
@@markumbers5362
I’m not even talking exclusively about internal combustion-I’m talking about the long life of LFP being reassuring for the time when today’s EVs become classic cars, in 30-50 years.
Juan-Teller Effect (JTE) Historical Note:
The "Teller" in Juan-Teller is the Edward Teller associated with the H-bomb.
"The effect is named for Hermann Arthur Jahn and Edward Teller, who first reported studies about it in 1937.[1]: sec. 13.4 " -- Also interesting in our context "An important part of the modern theory of the cooperative JTE,[44] can lead to structural phase transitions. It is important to note that many cooperative JT systems would be expected to be metals from band theory as, to produce them, a degenerate orbital has to be partially filled and the associated band would be metallic. However, under the perturbation of the symmetry-breaking distortion associated to the cooperative JTE, the degeneracies in the electronic structure are destroyed and the ground state of these systems is often found to be insulating (see e.g.[45])."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahn%E2%80%93Teller_effect
Great video as usual Jordan, love learning from what you learn it’s a great journey!
Thanks, Jordan. Fascinating stuff!
You're most welcome Tom!
Just wanted to give this more thumbs up!!!
😁Thanks!
as usual, Jordan, great video full of science-loaded content! as a chemist, I highly appreciate your videos!
🙌🏼🤠
This channel should have more subscribers. I will never understand the magic of chemistry. Thanks for all the hard work translating this magic to reality!
✊🏼 You're most welcome!
Your videos are so good. Similar structure issues with concrete, but on a bigger molecule scale.
Jordan thanks for another considered and researched presentation. No hype just facts.
You're most welcome 🤠
Adding a comment to help the algo. Great content as always.
🙏🤠
One main advantage of LFMP battery over LFP battery is its low temperature performance. LFMP battery loses its capacity only about 25% at -20C degree, while LFP battery loses its capacity about 60% at -20C degree. For EV battery to perform well in winter time, LFMP battery is the best choice (its formance in low temperature is even better than NCM battery).
Who knew that a few degree difference in the crystal structure would matter? Fascinating stuff.
Yeah, it's crazy!
Such a great video. I am a material scientist and also have chemistry background, im currently working in battery fields. I found this video and I'm impressed. Thank you so much for your hard work to create this insightful video. It's full of knowledge that is hardly found in literature alone, it need a comprehensive understanding about the topic and you can explain in a simple way, amazing. Love learning from you..
Really glad to hear it! Yes, the literature can be very frustrating, lol. They'll give you a chunk of meat, but not the sinews and organs
Amazing!!!!!
Yes! A new TLF vid.
But i didn't get notified this dropped yesterday:(
🙌 Glad it eventually worked out! Occasionaly people don't get their notifications - on my channel and others. YT 🙄
Love the videos. I just realized that, as I'm watching this vid at work with headphones on, with all the colorful and trippy animations, my colleagues must think I'm on drugs 😄
😁
If M3P is LFMP, the biggest benefit is actually power density. The energy density is also beneficial, but the ~0.05 increase in nominal voltage both offers higher power at a given capacity and requires fewer cells to achieve a given power level.
Best benefit depends on the use case
@@thelimitingfactor Absolutely. Right now, all eyes are on EVs.
Well done. Time to refresh/recover my previous knowledge of molecule physics? :-)
Also thanks for the outlook/extrapolation how battery prices could go down. (Without the big demand of vehicle battery storage this would and will not happen; similar to solar panels).
🤜🏼🤛🏼🤠
I am excited about all of the manganese rich chemistries coming out. This M3P battery is a great median that will fill a lot of the EV segment. The high manganese ternary cells like Umicore's pre-lithiated HLM cathode material will probably take an upper end market and who knows about Rimac's high voltage MnNx batteries. Plus, Tailan's new Solid State, wow.
Thank you!
Sure thing Robert!
If the chart at 12:15 is to be believed, 1/5 of the cycle life seems like a very high price to pay for what you get.
I'd actually like a cycles * Wh/kg or Wh/L kinda metric. I think it gives a better comparison of the products.
It all depends on what the use case and economics are. If the batteries are in a jet, for example, you're saving money each flight or can increase payload every flight by reducing weight.
@@thelimitingfactor
But when talking about aircraft, would LFP or LMFP even be up for consideration? I think the dire necessity for low weight would swamp whatever advantages those two chemistries have many times over.
Thanks!
You're most welcome Daniel!
Mate thanks very much, don't get it wrong but I love you 😅. That small pills of informations are great.
😁✊🏼
I have not ECE crossed Min 3 in the video yet it is great information. What is the xAxis in the Olivine graph? Thanks for the great work!
Thanks! Had a look through the slides, not sure which graph you're referring to?
Comparing Tesla's dry electrode coating to the normal wet slurry and ovens.
I'd be curious how frequently critical manufacturing defects happen while a normal jellyroll is coating and cooking.
We know it's high with the DBE method as it's early days, but long term I wonder if DBE has a chance of eventually achieving lower failure rates than the wet slurry process
It would be a worthwhile comparison once they actually get the process working...
But, that's all trade secret so we won't likely find out
Another possible energy source would be magnesium-air batteries, that is magnesium fuel cells.
cant really be recharged on the spot (yet); could be made into a system where a depleted magnesium oxide charge gets reduced back to metal electrochemically (possible in ionic liquid electrolytes) small scale, in ones garage, to be ready to use next day (possibly week?)
they would allow for significantly lower costs, higher energy densities, and circular refuelability
ps. other elements, such as silicon and aluminum might be usable as well, havent yet managed to find any literature on their reduction in room temp ionic liquids though.
Great vid as usual. Help me understand why Tesla is not producing a similar chemistry. Tesla’s high nickel battery serves such a small market and that’s according to Tesla. So why haven’t they produced a LFP battery. And I know they are using Catl equipment to produce a LFP battery in Gigafactory Reno. Why not do it themselves.
Is it something to do with patents? I wonder this too. I thought Ford was going to start building LFP batts in the US.
your last video with the interview was such a great video with many improvements of engaging with your audience. This video had the same potential, but it's lacking your "personality". But good video anyways. Hopefully u find a way to bring the huge improvement from the Shirley video into your non-interview videos.
Could you elaborate?
I always avoid injecting my personality into videos
There were no improvements in the Shirley Meng video, it was just an interview.
It's just with interviews, actually seeing my personality is unavoidable
electrons don't got personality. I wonder if Big Five factors apply to electronality...
Is the Shenxing battery missing in the summary or is it included in the pure LFP category?
LFP as far as I'm aware
Liked at 969 - I must be lucky tonight.
Is this the Shenxing PLUS battery?
Good question. Shenxing is just LFP with some tweaks.
In the graph shown from 8:39, I don't understand why doping with Mg increases the capacity (mAh) of the cathode. Shouldn't it decrease instead?
Increased ionic conductivity should lower the overpotential, which is indeed what we see in the graph (charge voltage is lower, discharge voltage is higher in the Mg-doped cathode) so it should increase the storable energy, but why also the capacity? Why can the doped material take in more Lithium if it hase less active Iron and less active Manganese?
Also note that this chart is not the ideal choice for intended point because it shows the first charge and first discharge behaviour, not the typical cycling behaviour (I get that it's very hard finding the perfect chart and that it will often simply not exist). Coulombic efficiency of both cathodes is very poor. I assume it would improve dramatically for later cycles, but that also means that the shape of the curves will change a lot.
I explained this. Rewind about 30 seconds.
The magnesium allows more lithium ions, AKA capacity, by allowing ions to flow more freely in and out of the cathode.
That is, magnesium punches above its weight and it counteracts any negative affect that it has on energy density as a non-active material by freeing up active ions.
That's why I say "...a 9% improvement...not bad for swapping out just 4%..."
As far as the graph being not the best choice, I'm not sure what you mean. It illustrates exactly the point I'm making. I'm talking about energy capacity.
Beyond that, the graph was the only choice because that was the graph that came with the research paper. I can't use what's not there.
As far as coulombic efficiency, as far as I'm aware that graph doesn't measure coulombic efficiency and it can't be infere from that graph (could be wrong?). That would be a different test as far as I'm aware. I think you're confusing voltage hysteresis or round trip efficiency with coulombic efficiency.
g.co/gemini/share/c83950e71dcb
@@thelimitingfactor Thanks for the detailed reply. I must have missed the part about higher capacity due to the change in crystal structure in addition to the better conductivity. I've now looked at the paper, too. It's clear that there is significant additional capacity (though they don't mention it in the abstract, it is stated later on).
@@thelimitingfactor As far as coulombic efficiency: You can easily deduct the coulombic efficiency of the cells from the graph. If it were close to 1, the discharge curves would end up at 0 mAh/g on the x axis, where the charge curves start out. We can also calculate the actual figures pretty easily, but it's not a very useful thing to do in this case since these coin cells were never optimized for acceptable cycling performance.
With regards to coulombic efficiency, provided a link for how that differs to other measures. Maybe I've got it wrong, but as far as I can tell the test doesn't measure that.
@@thelimitingfactor I can elaborate a bit: Coulombic efficiency (CE) is strictly speaking just a calculation of how many charges were counted during discharge divided by how many were counted during charge, in a full cycle [Ah_dch/Ah_ch, or (mAh/g_dch)/(mAh/g_ch) in the case of the graph in question]. As such, it can be calculated from any test data that contains a full cycle, including the graph in question (even if that may not have been the main point of the graph).
Since CE essentially tells you the relative amount of charge (~lithium ions) "lost" in a cycle it can be a valuable metric for at least two reasons:
1) The CE in the first cycle(s) says something about how much Li+ is "sacrificed" to make the SEI. This is essentially "wasted" lithium and it reduces the capacity and thereby energy density of your cell from the start, so it is something you want to minimize (cue pre-lithiation!).
2) The CE once the SEI is formed (so when the cell has "stabilised" after a few cycles) is an indicator of for example the quality/stability of that SEI, and the cycle life of the cell can be inferred (an extreme example: if the average "stabilised" CE=0.99 it means you lose 1% of the cell's capacity every cycle and so you would not not get many cycles until e.g., the normal 80%SOH end of life condition).
I hope that makes it clearer!
Thank you for the effort you put into these videoes and for engaging with the community!
I've got disillusion issues.
Cycle life is a higher priority. I choose LFP.
The cynic in me suspects the rate at which manganese migrates through the cathode particals is engineered to consider with battery warranty expiration.
It's not. They're all trying to maximize performance to increase market share. Maybe after they dominate the market they'll start doing that, lol
At any era in history, and you can identify organisms, organelles and organs all to be in a projection-drawing picture-plane containment of coherence-cohesion objectives in temporal sync-duration resonance quantization.
Too bad if this is not a flash-recognition thing for instantaneous education, you have to teach yourself how to make sense-in-common cause-effect connection Eternity-now out of pulse-evolution WYSIWYG QM-TIME Completeness Holographic Principle Act-uality.
Students who can exchange ideas and concepts with top-notch teachers who, no matter how advanced they are, can not be more than your Self, sense-in-common cause-effect of memory associations. Definitely the Limiting Factor of Absolute Zero-infinity reference-framing containment positioning of Actuality.
I don't think the manganese gradient is that difficult in iron particle manufacturing. Spraying liquid iron into a argon gas shielded void to rain pellets into a water bath should suffice, iirc from metallurgy studies manganese migrates away from the surface of molten iron, but my memory could be faulty
It's a crystal, not just solid metal
Man, moving and storing electron are super complicated than imagine
The name raises a question: why the name M3P? Analoge to LFP, you would expect the name to stand for, Manganese, Magnesium and Molybdenum. I am not sure that makes sense chemically. Or is it just 3 Metals (Lithium, Iron and Manganese)?
Also, I dread seeing a battery with 2000 cycles of life as an EV battery. That completely goes against the primary reason to have EVs over gas or diesel.
Maths. What's 2000 x 250?
Metals 3 Phosphate is my understanding
I'm not sure what you mean by dreading 2000 cycles.
On a 200 mile range pack, that's 400,000 miles
Yes, I didn't do the math. Still, that makes it less useful for certain applications such as plug-in hybrids and vehicle to grid (V2G) applications.
Also, less cycle life also means faster degradation. So, the max. range goes down faster, and the vehicle also loses its value faster.
No battery is good at everything. As per my roadmaps to 2030 video, I expect each chemistry to play to its strengths. There's a use case for each.
Until someone works out how to enhance ESP to a level specific enough to put knowledge direct from one brain to another.., and it's never going to overcome the "no cloning" problem, also the AI difficulty of precise quantization, which are the wave-particle indecision properties of the Uncertainty Principle anyway, we have to continue to share our uniqueness in parallel coexistence assessment of QM-TIME Completeness.., ie approximate memory associations, which applies directly to Battery Chemistry, and always on location.
As can be deduced from Singularity-point positioning Holographic Principle, the sync-duration nucleation differentiates in/of time-timing location is unique for every possible potential point, ie never discrete in isolation from Totality, because relative-timing ratio-rates Perspective Principle defines relative age in the complete Universe, ONE-INFINITY, simultaneously with Sublimation-Tunnelling distance. This is a state-ment of exclusion-inclusion Singularity-point positioning Conception.
The distance an Electron has to travel.., is why the measure of Electron Volts is such a slippery concept? Until we remember it is all-ways all-at-once sync-duration holography dimensionality coordination shaping the past-future presence of probabilistic correlations NOW.
From a parallel coexistence POV. Excellent presentation as usual.
I didn't understand most of this, but what I did understand was insightful 😁 Thanks
My revivifier snuck past the, "put knowledge direct from one brain to another" problem by keeping (doll) bodies separate and transplanting the brain. 🧠
I used to be neuroactively challenged. I got better. Cheers! 💔
All LFP patents should be made free and open source.
Patents are expiring. Canadian consortium permitted Chinese chemists to use patents for 2 decades > giving China battery?EV companies a huge boost. As Prof. Meng related, research funding follows fashion: at the turn of the century, UMontreal+Hydro Quebec+Gouv. de Quebec opened their LFP patent, when China - and few others - would fund LFP research. Sure wish that the Gov. of Canada had anted up some research bucks. I'd be an Electric Doll by now...
The pirmary LFP patents are expired. I have a video on this
So the solution to dissolution is datsolution? Plural: dosesolutions? Got it, thanks!
😁