The Verve: Did The Rolling Stones Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony From Richard Ashcroft?
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The moral of this story is always be kind to each other even in times of difficulty. Good behavior may be it’s own reward, but sometimes it also gets you the rights to Bittersweet Symphony.
Ya right. The moral of the story is people are selfish and unkind.
The REAL moral of this story is don't mess with Baby Boomers and their money. They will literally lie, cheat and steal to keep what they believe is thiers. The Greatest Generation fought brutal battles to give them the world, and they have no interest in sharing it with anyone. We all live in the the age of lawyers and litigation for the sole purpose of keeping their money and property safe. They will sell anything. They will kill anything. Nothing is sacred. Nothing. Not even the children they fail to raise, but have no problem criticizing.
When historians/anthropologist look back from 50/500/1000 years from now, it will be their generation and their wonton and unspeakable greed that will be the the turning point to our society's collapse. We all just had to play their miserable game, for better or worse. I don't believe in hell but if there is one I hope all member of The Stones are in it eventually.
Except Charlie. Solid dude.
The moral of the story is the music industry is run by people with certain last names and they won't share a penny.
after listening to this whole story, this song actually was ironically a bittersweet symphony. What a wild ride. It's great that at the end it became sweet thanks to the Stones doing the right thing.
I was so happy for him the day I heard he got his song back. That’s huge, never should have happened to being with.
The whole hook of the song is the sample from the orchestral version of "The Last Time" (which sounds _nothing_ like the Stones version btw), so while he was probably entitled to use the sample since he acquired it legally (that's my recollection; I haven't watched this video yet), it's kind of a stretch to call it "his song".
Even the title is spectacularly lame (it's a bittersweet sounding 'symphony', so he called it "Bittersweet Symphony" 🙄; if he bought the rights to the hook from "Satisfaction" and sang over it he'd probably call it "Old 60s Rock Song").
Take away the music written by others and there's no song here.
@B. G. I think he got the rights for the orchestral part, which is the right thing to do, and as you said, it sounds nothing like the original Stones song. Given that it was based on a much older song, and Keith even says it goes back further in time, I see no legal problems at all.... just that prick, Klein. As for the musical merit, it has a different bass, words, and vibe, so I have no problems (and I HATE sampled songs). I play guitar and bass and write songs and, as stated, would never sample, I really like this song. The whole album is great.... cheers.
The first two albums by The Verve may not have been commercially successful but artistically they’re every bit amazing as Urban Hymns.
I was there at Manchester 2018 and it was the last song Ashcroft performed, and upon its conclusion he said "Rolling Stones forever - Allen Klein, I'm coming for you.....like Tony Soprano".
Aw, this story turned out nice.
With all the layers and complications, ins and outs of the courts, when it was all over, the whole thing really did end up just being an actual bittersweet symphony.
That's life
Class act by the Stones to rectify the situation, a rarity in the music business.
I think you're missing the part where the stones caused Richard Ashcroft a lot of shit and claimed royalties they didn't deserve.
Its like pushing some one off a cliff just to save them. You cant say they did something good.
It wasn't them who ended things finally. It was Richards new manger. His solo careers manager who made a new arrangement.
Before making comments, listen.
@@blush-n-bashful4790 "In addition, Richards and Jagger requested that ABKCO pay extra for all his troubles over the years". That's quite a push off a cliff.
Well they *only* caused the band to split in despair, having had their hit demonetised
They still suck though.
@@Kariakas I mean, taking the majority of the royalties during the peak of the single and then throwing them some bones 20 years later. Considering inflation and the % the reimbursement was compared to what was raked in by the Stones, it doesn’t seem like they were really that class of an act. Better than nothing, but still pretty shitty.
The music industry is such a slimy douchey business ....
All business is though
Hollywood too
Yeah I know it makes me not wanna play guitar sometimes.... people can be mean AF
Yeah
See my remarks above.
Too me, this was one of the biggest injustices in the history of music! SO HAPPY, to hear that it had been squashed. Go on you Stones, for giving the rights too Richard. Now he truly enjoy the fruits of his labour!!
✌🏼
Oh man, that is FUCKING AWESOME!!!! What was an extremely sad and angering story - and a lesson in abject greed - has become a happy, life-affirming story. And good on Mick Jagger and Keith Richards for being stand-up guys about this. They were never involved in the lawsuit over "Bittersweet Symphony" to begin with. They also knew that of course they never needed the money for it, as they are each worth hundreds of millions of dollars and have been for decades. When they finally had the chance to put the situation right, they did so. I am very happy that they did do so. 👍🏻
Whether ABKCO actually enacted Mick and Keith's directive to pay Ashcroft what he well deserved is not verified here, and given the Kleins' behavior the vileness likely continues; Ashkroft should be paid his due.
The good will generated as a result of this magnanimous gesture was probably worth more than the couple of million in question, and as you've pointed out they hardly need the money. It's a shame that Jagger has very recently done so much damage to his reputation by coming out in opposition to personal bodily autonomy; then again Richard Wagner was an anti-Semite and is still selling a lot of recordings.
@@jasonlynn1017Well, Mick and Keith did pay Ashcroft something like $2.75 million several years ago.
@@bobthebear1246 I didn't know M & K were not involved with the litigation. Good. And better, as Christ look at all everyone "borrows."
For this my respect for The Rolling Stones has gone over 100%
Just shows how screwed the copyright system is, how can you know who owns a song sometimes, the case of Men at Work is another great example.
While the Stones song was inspired by an old gospel song the Staples had cut a version of, it’s still a different song. Klein owned the publishing to TLL, and Jagger and Richards were the composers. It’s not as complicated as you make it sound.
Nothing screwed about it. People own property it is that simple. It is the basis of western culture.
If you do not believe in private property you are a communist.
@@bighands69 well stated Barzini
@bighand69 It's not always that simple, and I think you misunderstood what the op meant. In similar cases, the similarities between a pair of songs can be subjective or a matter of opinion as to if their was actually copyright theft, it's not always clear, that's why we see them turn into complicated court cases, if it were an obvious violation then they wouldn't be getting dragged out in court, it would be a simple decision and the rightful creator would win. How can you fairly and accurately determine ownership if it boils down to a matter of opinions between 2 disputing parties? I believe that's what the op meant, they're not saying copyright ownership is confusing if you flat out copy someone else's work in cases where it's clearly obvious such as this, they're saying sometimes you can't really tell if that's the case, how many songs can possibly be made before one ends up unknowingly sounding like another? Certainly, if one believes their work to be stolen, and the other party claims it was their original work, that's where the ownership confusion comes in. I'm not certain if that's what they were implying or not but I'm quite certain the op is not advocating for communism, derp.
Fun fact: Allen Klein owned the rights to the Rolling Stones' Dead Flowers and allowed a cover of it to be used in the movie The Big Lebowski free of charge because he loved when the Dude yells, "I CAN'T STAND THE F*CKING EAGLES!"
He actually said “I hate the fucking Eagles”
Wow that was a DEEP dive on this story/song. Nice work, as always.
Goes to show what a dirty business the music industry is.
Agreed! Why sell your soul to make a few bucks.
IDK if I would go quite that far. Yes, The Verve did get screwed here, but at the same time that could have been avoided had they not built a song around a sample.
The obvious unasked question is how the f did manager John Kennedy convince stones to give back everything and even invite him to open...smells
Like
Blackmail
@@SMDAHL I don't think it really requires a conspiracy theory. There's been a fair amount of negative PR around this situation for years and I can't imagine there's a huge amount of money to be made for it at this point. The Stones aren't giving up anything particularly valuable and they come out of the situation looking favorably.
Oy vey
The Seattle Seahawks use "Bittersweet Symphony" as their entrance music every time they run onto the field at the beginning of each home game.
Wow! I knew the first 90% of the story, even the part about The Staple Singers, but I didn't know there was finally a happ ending to the story! Good on ya, Mick and Keith!
Lucky Man is my favorite song from The Verve.
Orgy is mine
Lucky Man was pure class. My favourite too.
I love Slide Away
Lucky Man is 2nd to Bittersweeet Symphony
“Happiness, coming and going...” is one of my favorite lyrics of that song.
Respect for The Stones for doing this. They’re rich enough, and Klein was a greedy, horrible guy who pursued the copyright in bad faith.
Bad faith? They used a recording he owned the rights to. Klein was a huckster, but he was entitled to royalties, in this case.
@@TheStompboxer Did he write the fucking song? No? Exactly stfu
@@ggallintedtalk You don’t understand what publishing is, yet you’re attempting to argue about it like a small child who thinks he knows better than the adults.
Did you manufacture your own car? Does that mean you don’t own it?
@@TheStompboxer Are you daft? The Stones clearly plagiarized the song from another artist, if we’re calling a spade a spade then the song has been stolen since the beginning! So it’s right that Klein gets to not give any publishing rights to the actual artist but only to the stones .. you’re a moron that clearly didn’t even watch the video, jit.
@@ggallintedtalk I watched the video. I’d also bet good money my background is significantly more relevant than yours. You’re making that painfully obvious.
The song wasn’t “plagiarized.” It was inspired by a single phrase in a public domain spiritual. The other lyrics or melody are not the same. The lyrics aren’t a factor in this case, anyway, so I’m not sure why it was mentioned in the video. Expertise isn’t a prerequisite to posting a video on TH-cam, it turns out.
You don’t know what constitutes plagiarism, but that doesn’t stop you from asserting an idiotic opinion about it.
Klein didn’t write the song. That’s probably why Jagger and Richards have the songwriters’ cut of the publishing (which they relinquished ONLY for their part of “Bittersweet Symphony”).
The recording that was sampled is a separate matter.
But you don’t understand the distinction. You’re just another loudmouth dumbfuck Dunning-Kruger poster child.
Shut he fuck up yourself, Junior.
The irony is in the name of the song
Probably why they named it that
Cool video. I love the way this song was used in "Cruel Intentions", a vastly underrated movie.
That is a good one.
Thats where I first heard it and fell in love with it
I know this video is old, but The Verve has always been one of my favorite Bands, and for the last 8 or so years, the Seattle Seahawks use this song when they run on the field, you can look it up, but it always made me smile eventhough I'm not a Football fan. But Urban Hymns Is one of the best Albums ever!!
It has to be said, the Stones didn't sue, it was Klein and ABKCO who own the publishing rights to all of the Stones' music up to 1970 to this very day. The Stones have zero control over their music prior to 1970. Klein was ruthless, too much hating on Mick and Keith. They couldn't have brought up the lawsuit if they wanted to. The Stones themselves never even promoted the 50th anniversary editions of Beggars Banquet and Let It Bleed for this very reason.
thank you
They used Jagger and Richards’s composition, but the Andrew Loog Oldham Orchestra’s recording of it.
There are separate royalties for the two.
@capacitance-rca1981 “The Last Time” was composed by Jagger/Richards. It’s not that hard to look this stuff up, if you can’t be bothered to read the thread you’re posting in.
@capacitance-rca1981 What about “Andrew Loog Oldham Orchestra’s recording” is so difficult for you to grasp? That version had nothing to do with Jones as a composer OR a performer.
@capacitance-rca1981 I have no idea what you’re prattling on about, but you should learn the basic differences between composition, arrangement, and performance.
The version of the song the Verve sampled had nothing to do with the Stones aside from the two who composed it. Brian Jones’s arrangement elements from a completely different arrangement and recording are irrelevant.
That orchestral version doesn't even sound anything like that stones song. That's the shit kicker of it all
Exactly.
Then the fact the stones took their song from someone else
It is the same song. A slower tempo doesn’t change the melody.
@@vinyllpreviews9462 Just the line “this may be the last time.” It’s not the same song.
I'm a huge Stones fan. But Bitter Sweet Symphony does sound quite like The Last Time other than there is no bridge. But hells-bells, all kinds of rock songs sound like oall kinds of other rock songs. So what. A good song is a good song. Nevertheless, glad the Stones gave the rights and the money back (not that they noticed the dent in their checkbooks).
Thank you for covering this. Big fan of this song and band. Used it to practice drumming.
Great story, great outcome, thanks for your contribution to informing people like myself who wouldn’t know this otherwise, it really does increase our knowledge on important stuff like this in music and gives us a better understanding of the industry
Urban Hymns is an amazing album!
Another great video, I loved this song as a kid. The strings make it man. Thanks for the content. The Verve got screwed! B.S. man. The stones should have signed over the rights much earlier. Its only right. You're the freaking rolling stones man, you're fine!
Martin Glover, punk rock legend. Oh the irony with it being Killing Joke who were ripped off by Nirvana but who took the higher ground and said Come as you are is a good song so did not file a copyright infringement against Nirvana and Foos and Killing Joke have also taken to the stage together. That is how you handle a dispute.
Huge mad props👌 for mentioning "Youth" from "killing joke"!👍 I didn't know he produced the "verb" album? Can't wait to Hear that interview, you mentioned a few months back that you had on him?✌
that will always be one of my favorite songs.
I've always wondered why when they decided the song needed a string part they didn't say "ok, let's write one" rather than "ok, let's take one".
What part of they got clearance don't you understand, numbnuts?
They probably could of hired an orchestra to write something.
@@sythe77 Not a fan of Gunge I take it?🤷🏽♂️
When I first heard "Bittersweet Symphony", I said, "Sounds a lot like "The Last Time". Never heard all this trouble resulted. Klein was lower than shit. Paul was right, they should have signed with John Eastman. Klein graduated from my college, one of the few celebrities who did. The college went out of business, Klein is dead, and the Stones did the decent thing.
So in the end, the song truly lived up to its title for Ashcroft and the Verve!
I love happy endings, Go Verve.
Jose Antonio Delgado
Me too....
@@Incountry everyone deserves a happy ending.
Jose Antonio Delgado
I agree, you just can’t beat it....😜
An amazing story. I spent the first 2/3 of this video asking if the title of the clip was backward lol, but then the moment reveals itself. I'm glad the stones did what they did.
Me too hahahaha
very entertaining and informative and well explained thanks!!! I always though the song was made in the 60's so that's means how good it is
If you sing the bittersweet melody to Louie Louie ( Kingsmen) some how it fits too this song was from the 50's , its a chord progression they played fast but when slowed down its the Oldham - Bittersweet version
Glad this had a happy ending with everyone working things out.
The irony is the Stones ripped The Last Time off the Staples Singers in the first place.
No they did not rip it. A band does not have the rights to certain words such as the last time. That is a term that has been in existence for the whole human existence. It is like saying the beatles ripped off Help because other songs used the word.
Reminds me a lot of the story of the song, “The Lion Sleeps Tonight”.
You should do a video on that!
Great video, and interesting story. I love deep dives and plot twists.
My bad the last time🤦♀️ also allen Klein was a tyrant
WOW. He got the song back. The Stones could have said "Screw him, We are The Stones." Their are better men by agreeing, "Yeah. We are The Stones, but that is one great record and he deserves the credit. Cheers mate."
Another great video brother!!
I had no idea about the wonderful resolution of this. Also had no idea that they had actually licensed the Oldham sample. The details of all this were quite muddy back in the day when it was happening.
#thatmomentwhen Annette hands out the copies of Sebastian's book during Katherine's eulogy.
I love that shitty movie.
So glad to hear Ashcroft got his song back😍
I have a suggestion for a future episode. The band is Atomship. Amazing band with only 1 album and a totally underrated drummer. Would love to see what you can find on them.
You should definitely do a video about the multiple breakups of The Verve over the years!
Eh lindo demais este cantor ❤❤❤Love Love Love ❤
Well, I had no idea how this saga ended. Good for Mick and Keith for doing the right thing.
That's so cool and nice of the Stones to do that. Truly a well deserved happy ending.
you did a fantastic job.
Thanks
very well researched video. nice work.
It's great this happy ending. Love both bands.
Great band. Drugs Don't Work, Lucky Man and Sonnet are also great tracks from the Urban Hymns album that did well in the UK
That's amazing. Good on you, Stones!
So when do the Staple Singers get their cut?
They, of course, would have signed a terrible deal with their publishers.
Alan Klein was a mean and greedy man who liked to win.
The Stones just restarted and became even greater.
Ethical companies would have refused to use any ABKO intellectual property.
Companies, however, rely upon unfair contract law to make their fortunes.
Something about D. Boon and the Minutemen would be interesting, or how the Butthole Surfers sued Touch & Go Records.
Or how SST, Greg Ginn's label screwed the Minutemen out of 100's of 1000's. Many years ago I played with George Hurley in a band and he would bitch about it from time to time.
@@TheChristafershawn If there is any truth to it one can't help but wonder as to why he and Mike Watt continued to work with SST for the next three Firehose albums and why Watt sold New Alliance Records to Ginn and is still friends with him up to this day?
What a complicated debacle!
Not sure how I didn’t guess this one from the clues.
Like Keith Richards said, 'this is bunch of complicated lawyer sh--!'. I tell ya tho, I don't see any similarity to that orchestral melody that sampled 'Last Time' to the song 'Last Time', which happens to be one of my all-time favorite Stones tunes.
Please stop saying “stay tuned to find out” dude I’ve already clicked on the video. I am going to watch it. Appreciate your videos man.
I'm sure he'll do his best to retrain his mind to correct his lifelong conditioned manner of speech just because they "annoy" you.
Heh - lots people do it. Think of it as a marketing technique ($ is watch time based) and a hook that provides literary subordination. You've been direct and communicative (perhaps aggressively by z measure of some), but I don't think that your comment merits rudeness. Maybe u will, after this, but i think a respectful response would clearly b more efficient from a utilitarianistic perspective. U could easily humiliate me, here, but I dont mind.
He had to waste time to get it over 10 minutes.
@@JoeCnNd the algorithm is 8mins now I'm pretty sure. Not 10 anymore.
Get over it. It’s not a big deal.
This one actually blew my mind......it was a sample of a cover of a readapted song lol
Love the verve! Please do more videos on more UK bands. 😃
That was very interesting. Thank you.
In the Stones'song..... Where is the strings that were sampled? I have the Rolling Stones record and don't recall hearing the string part that was sampled.
They sampled a orchestral version of a rolling stones song
Hey I love your videos man! I've learned a lot from you since I subscribed a month or 2 ago. How you dig up these fascinating stories is beyond me. Keep it up!
That just explains just about all the business side of Rock and Roll. Old traditionally blues song, guys from 1960 -1970 take written credit from it and managers steals copyright of that song.
It's amazing that the Rolling Stones have like a million hit songs and the Verve have one and this still had to sample it from the Stones.. hehe.
Really sweet outcome . Nice . ♥
At the end of the day, creating a hit song is not easily done. Glad the Verve were rewarded for their brilliance.
Thank you this has been a research experience for me. Ashcroft made this song his own. Kinda like Johnny Cash did with Hurt.
Funny how Kline didn’t believe in sampling, but he was okay with the Stones sampling the Staple Singers song.
I wonder what Led Zeppelin would think about all this. They would never take credit for someone else's work, would they?
copyright laws were intended to protect artists, but these days I see a lot of abuse and artists getting nothing while attorneys get the money.
I'm glad this had a happy ending because Ashcroft got skanked so hard by KLEIN, et al. Now, if we can just get the Staple singers and every other Black artist The Stones, Beatles, Zep etc ripped off-some money too-, that would be lovely, unfortunately there are ALWAYS too many Klein's in the mix.
I hadn't heard that he had gotten the rights back. That is awesome, and was a really classy gesture from the Stones. I have been mad at them for over two decades over the way that Ashcroft was treated. It is nice to find out that they really had nothing to do with it, and made amends for the entire situation. Wow.
I live in the Verve’s hometown, don’t know them but I’ve heard stories over the years. Recording with my first band with an ex member of The Tansads, they hated The Verve as they were “a bunch of students making noise” and they got big whereas the Tansads disappeared.
Also my wife remembers Richard Ashcroft being about 18 and playing acoustic guitar on the front garden of a house in her village.
They obviously made better noise than tha Tansads Jamie.
@@paulburns1333 yeah, I was never a fan of them.
Interesting. Had no idea all that went on over all these years. Great song.
8:03 “signed over?” Meaning? Signed over to whom exactly? A very thoroughly produced explanation of a notorious musical squabble, despite missing details. Unfortunately with very little music in it.
Wow!!!
Thank you
Thank you
Thank you
For taking the time to explain the convoluted situation behind the Verve’s song and why The Rolling Stones were connected to this controversy
From my takeaway, it sounds like the Verve may have gotten some compensation for composing one of the greatest songs of the time
Well.. they really havent composed the song..
Klein sounds like a real piece of work
Yes absolutely.
Thanks, I didn't know the correct version of this story.
The video to verve is great
I like the happy ending.
I love a happy ending :)
In the words of noel gallagher 'nothing is original in music it's all in someway stolen from someone else'
Seems like the Rolling Stones should have split the royalties between Ashcroft and anyone from the Staples Singers who is just as deserving if not more.
Its not that simple, They didn't own the copyright to their early stuff, which the song the orchestral cover was based on. The shitty executive, who started all this slimy shit in the first place, had all the power to say who gets what, and he wanted all the money that a huge hit like BSS could make. The stone had no say on who could get what and if they tried to give back to the verve earlier on, that executive could have sued them I am sure. Never forget scum bags like him and why the big music industry is a sham.
I’ve been listening
to the verve since 95. It took that song 20 years to top the charts.
Sean Sean, I literally was listening to that song years before it came out and hit the charts. What part don’t you understand?
The Verve - Gravity Grave.
You're welcome.
Check out A storm in Heaven. It’s underrated and deserves appreciation
Sadly the people who invented music never got a cut of the royalties from Bittersweet Symphony.
Nice one!
Good on Mick and Keith
I have a new appreciation for the Stones.
I am happy about the ending, a little late but better that than never reaping the rewards.
The most underrared band of all time.