That is kind of just ignorant just to say. If it was “another” version again it is just as the same if it was another Batman. Still had his parents die having him build the batfamily, him joining the justice league again really look how much it is just having it as another Batman. Because it would just be the same feeling.
@@JKZ0000ME That isn’t what I said and you know it. Again if it the same experience same outcome of becoming Batman, all of this that makes him Batman. It would just be the same even if it was Arkhamverse. Again he is another Batman we love this version because it means a lot to us. That I understand but just ask yourself. If it is Batman and this game came out it would still be the same thing. Again this version of Batman is done with for all we know we are getting better games. And a new universe which Gunn is most likely trying to do.
You know, we all have our own opinions when it comes to what and what is not cannon, aside from what others say. In my opinion Arkham ended with Knight and it's DLCs, it was a good sendoff to a series of games that have been so good, bordering on perfect.
I hate how every versión of Harvey quinn after the sucide squad (2016) just become a margot Robbie rip-off, even if the character was pretty different before
@@kaistemino do you mean 3? because 2 is a masterpiece the raimi trilogy was the blueprint for ALL superhero films before iron man or dark knight were even concepts.
that's not batman they're disrespecting. do you SERIOUSLY think they are fighting the real justice league in this game? theres strong evidence showing that the justice league shown was not the true league, but clones made by brainiac. the real league (including batman) are still being held by brainiac, i'd wager. like, for real. comics do this trick. all the time. yes. even with batman. ok i'm not defending this, but neither am i sitting there going "hum... yes... that sure is the real arkhamverse batman they are fighting and not some kind of clone." i mean if this was the real league dc and warner brothers would have a fit.
SSKTJL writers literally making up a Deadshot from an alternate universe where literally fucking nothing is different but his skin color instead of just not changing his fucking skin color
@@jobt1999 No Deadshot fan cares if they make him black. So what? We just didn’t want him to have the personality of Will Smith, as opposed to Floyd. The Suicide Squad 2016 movie is at fault here. This character has NOTHING the comic version had, and not even anything from the Arkham movie. They could have just made him black and been upfront about the silly retcon. But no, they had to ruin his character. 😄😄🔫
Couldn't Rocksteady have thought of something more simple if they really wanted a retcon? You know, something like "the original Deadshot in Origins/City either died or retired and this new guy is a legacy character". The whole alternate universe stuff is too complicated for something really trivial.
It’s very telling that Sefton Hill and Jamie Walker left Rocksteady and formed a new studio before this game released. There was very clearly a power struggle at the studio, and they unfortunately lost.
That because Greedy out of touch WB wanted to jump on the shooter game market. But what they didn't realize is they tried to mix chocolate with sour cream. Great on their own but together it don't mix. You can't force a mix. You can't force superhero theme in shooters it just doesn't work.
@@theinsurance2450sefton hill wrote this games story he also helped lead it most of the OG Arkham team made this game which makes me wonder why they all quit before it was supposed to launch originally they started Development of the game 7 years ago
@@theinsurance2450WB are bleeding money because of all their failed dc films (literally losing them hundreds of millions) and the thought that turning their games into live service GAAS games would save them but it just made things worse lmfao
@SniperKing-O I like Gotham Knights. Made a vid on it. Also talked a bit about my thoughts on Suicide squad. It looks like a game I might enjoy cause I love fighting bad guys in pretty much any game, but I don't like how they ended Batman.
Original creators had little control over this project and such is not "canon" to me, these days when corporations "buy" the rights and then wear these properties like skin suits destroying themes, writing, and continuity while saying this is connected to a story that's already loved, we need to just start ignoring these entries and simply state: We know you "own the rights" but we simply do not care.
That's exactly how I feel about the Fallout series and Bethesda. To me, Fallout will never be theirs, no matter what they say or do - the last Fallout was New Vegas. The original Fallout universe is simply too different from the games that characterize Bethesda's identity - this is why they made Fallout 3, 4, and 76 as they did. These are shooter-action titles, not real roleplaying games.
People, why hasn't anyone ever said that Captain Boomerang is dead too?! If you don't believe me, read Batman: Arkham Knight #22 (page 19). This comic book series tells what happened in Gotham before the events of the game Arkham Knight.
@@Mrhouse-k1x You must be misremembering because Boomerang is one of the few who is clearly very much alive at the end of that movie. He's last seen cursing Deadshot for escaping Arkham in a helicopter without him.
This will NEVER be canon, or at least I refuse to be believe it’s apart of the Arkham verse. These devs out here really be thinkin they can get away with disrespecting my boy Arkham Batman. I believe this game takes place in its own universe, in the same way the Batman movie starring Robert Pattinson takes place in its own continuity.
Black deadshot, penguin has a green glass in his eye instead of white (* for reference someone got mad and shoved a beer bottle in penguins eye which is white bot green) so they want you to belive penguin had it removed and replaced with a green one haha, Harley queen and ivy when that was never a thing in arkham, Harley queen having issues doing things to kids when in Canon of arkham she did many things that hurt kids such as drugging them with drugs and jokers blood Harley knowing how to make fear toxin when scarecrow would never let her know how to do so, as in Canon he offs anyone who knows anything about it. Tfx tanking fear toxin like they got a little drink when it had batman on his knees in asylum and knight. And much more.
Also Harleys old outfits are made fun of by Harley and tfx when she literally made said outfits herself because she liked the style, as opposed to the implication of it being forced on her.
@@Elnegro.. Clearly the Harley Quinn in Kill the Justice League was based more on recent incarnations of the character such as Margot Robbie's version and the animated version than the Arkham Harley.
@@SeanWheeler100 Yeah, they run with the "popular" Harley over the canonical Harley. A "popular" Harley who I honestly don't even think is popular, only popular in the social justice woman power circles aka Hollywood.
I think the new developers just watched Harley Quinn Tv Show on HBO and see how Harley and Ivy are couple and just make it canon and put it in the game. Even though throughout in Arkham games: -Asylum: Harley and Ivy only interract once when Ivy begs Harley to get out of her cell anddd that's it -City: Harley is busy taking care of sick Joker and Ivy is having a beef with Selina / Catwoman -Origins: Ivy isn't on this game but Harley who was still Harleen met Joker at first time -Knight: Harley is still grieving over the Joker's death and has her own gang while Ivy eventually helps Batman and sacrifice herself for Gotham
@@margarethmichelina5146 Forgot to mention Harley and her gang were trying to bring back joker, and she's so desperate she poisoned a old man with jokers blood and was all over him like cotton candy.
Here’s one you might have missed: the Injustice Gang is mentioned in a Magazine in Arkham City-implying that the Justice League *was* around during the events of the Arkham Trilogy, regardless of what Rocksteady wants to claim.
@@WithcherKnight1307 ● Deadshot said: "Bang" aloud, before he smiled, which implied that he was going to shoot Waller. However, as later confirmed by Deadshot, Batman intervened and prevented him from assassinating Waller. Waller was the one who played a role to get Deadshot even getting into Arkham City alongside Hugo Strange. She pretty much wanted to get Deadshot back into Task Force X, granted he was out for a long time.
What is weird is Rocksteady retcon'd Assault on Arkham but the Riddler in SSKTJL made a small reference to it. Not to mention Cobblepot mentioned the other King Shark.
What a disaster of a game, i have zero enthusiasm to even watch a gameplay of this game on yt. The Arkham franchise ended with knight, plain and simple!!
@@Wizardjones69 knight had its flaws and could've been better for sure but atleast it respected batman and the rest of the characters. Not to mention the graphics are ridiculously good even 9 over years on.
I like how Batman actually used his disruptor in the first encounter where he one shot everyone, but then just went "no, i don't think i will" in the actual boss fight.
I like to think that Brainiac is keeping the JL in his ship and made clones of them and put their memories inside of them because they're a valuable asset to conquer the multiverse, and Batman's brain somehow didn't transfer well to the clone due to the Fear Toxins in his brain, that's my head canon
@@omega6749 Yeah that's more accurate except the ThunderBolts are actually more dangerous and could realistically do that although I hate the thought anyways.
@CJD_XAnd if they do? You ain’t finna do shh as far as I’m concerned. The gameplay is repetitive sure, but there’s comedic moments.. You can’t literally hate every moment about this game. If you do, I won’t stop you, I can’t control anybody.. But don’t ruin that for anyone else else because of your own feelings about a simple game
To add onto your Batman point, Batman directly says in Arkham City that "facing armed thugs head on is suicide. I need to conceal myself, plan out my strategy." When he first goes to the church and YEETS Harley Quinn with ease. Batman is beyond genius level, and Suicide Squad Batman with fear toxin, still for some reason decides to face armed thugs head on. Either an absolute destruction of Batman's intelligence while OK WITH KILLING, or this is another universe that has no connection to Arkham.
So, _Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice League_ is not set in what almost every fan refers to as "the Arkhamverse" (the main continuity), but an alternate continuity of the _Batman: Arkham_ video game franchise.
Can I just say that a Legion of Doom: Kill the Justice League would've been a far more interesting premise? You could still have Brainiac as the endgame villain, but it'd make sense for the people to kill the Justice League to be their respective arch-nemeses. I'd set it outside the Arkham-verse so you could bring back Joker as well.
@@smitty_werben_jagerman_jensen Yeah just imagine playing as Death Stroke or even Metallo, we could keep Boomerang or switch him with Captain Cold, I actually liked King Shark so maybe add Aquaman as a boss.
The Injustice Gang had a Easter Egg all the way back in Arkham Asylum, and add in prometheus as a major lead role in the game and Rocksteady would have gone full circle with the Arkham Games. Though if you ask me, I would’ve had the Main Characters be the Titans, it just works the best thematic and story-wise, it adds a huge emotional conflict for our leads as they have to take on and potentially kill their Mentors. Plus this concept alone reminds a lot of the young justice s1 finale, especially the bit where Robin and Superboy switch targets as they can’t beat their respective Mentors 1 on 1.
How about a "Suicide Squad: Kill the Crime Syndicate"? So the Squad can fight something akin to the Justice League without killing the beloved characters. Maybe they can have Brainiac pulling the strings from behind and the true League coming in aid of the Squad. Not saying that it would be automatically a better game, but definitely a less controversial one.
This game would be great to be in the Injustice universe imo. It would help with a lot of the inconsistenties, their plot armour for example, there was a pill that let regular people take on superman level powers. There's even the multiverse already established in that series, it could have helped hype up the 3rd Injustice (if it's confirmed, I haven't been keeping too up with it). Not to mention, the Arkham-verse wouldn't be so disrespected.
I'm glad they've made it officially simple to seperate the perfect Arkham series from this mess. It's like the devs did so much damage, it literally cannot be taken seriously as a continuation
I had also noticed these inconsistencies and found it strange, but what probably happened was just that they didn't know or didn't remember these small details, since no one who made Arkhamverse participated in this game
This game is 100% not canon, but something i just realized is that the squad needed some sort of gadgets to take out each member, and early on we see them get taken out by batman in one fell swoop via predator style combat. It would have been cool if they showed batman use the disrupter on their guns the first time, to show that they need to upgrade their weapons to be able to resist batmans tampering, and have the "boss fight" just be them resisting the fear toxin like batman did with scarecrow to then have a predetor style rematch against batman, this time with their guns and gadgets. I dont like the story but this would have made it a little more fun.
@@urkelbot2099 in the first encounter they can use weapons just not the travel gadgets and the fight in itself is just batman using fear toxin, and them avoiding batmans predator-esque takedowns to change the toxin. Then just bullet sponge batman and they win. What i mean is that in the first encounter they show off batman using the disruptor to take away all of their gear and being wrecked by him (similar but they literally have nothing) and the boss starts with the bullet sponge and the second phase is them actually fighting back against batman as he tries to do predators style takedowns, this time being more difficult since they have weapons now that cant be disrupted...heck and maybe even add like gizmo chiming in to help them find batman like how in AK he can be tracked with detective mode idk.
The thugs did say Red Hood, "Took down Killer Moth" but doesn't always mean kill, even if it was Red Hood that did it. If Waller is calling Killer Moth he might be injured but somehow still alive like how Batgirl was in Arkham Knight.
Another inconsistency with Harley was that it was heavily implied that she and Ivy were a couple. But it doesn't make sense at all, because Ivy died in Arkham Knight and in that game, Harley was very clearly still grieving and obsessing over the Joker, there were no hints or implications that they were together, even after Ivy died. So, when could they have possibly gotten together??
@@DanteDMCrules i think it was explained or heavily implied that Ivy was reborn after her death, which is why she's a kid, but honestly, they should have stuck to her being dead.
I like GothamPaladin's theory of the game being set on another Earth in the arkham multiverse. As mentioned there are too many inconsistencies to where it is impossible for the world seen in Suicide Squad Kill The Justice League to be the same as the one in the other arkham games. So, it is likely that SSKJL is set on another Earth especially because of the game's whole multiverse gimmick.
Well, the original writers for the Arkham Series left Rocksteady, leaving a bunch of inexperienced interns to write and make a “sequel” to a PERFECT series
I would say another thing; Batman's resistance to mind control. Batman is known in many different stories to resist and even overcome mind control. He overcomes Talia's and Darkseids mind control, as well as stops Trigons attempts to control him in the DCAU for instance, and in the Arkhamverse he overcomes the Mad Hatter twice, Joker's blood taking him over and the Fear Toxin. It feels very out of character for Barry to be the only one who overcomes the mind control for a little bit. I feel like it would've made way more sense if, after being beaten, he break out of the mind control like Barry did, maybe he doesn't have control over his body, but he tells the Suicide Squad how to beat Superman directly and suggests to use him as bait, killing him before Brainiac could take him back completely.
Even then, *Crisis on Two Earths* tells me that there’s at least 100 different ARKHAMVERSE earths, due to different decisions & scenarios. So even if they REALLY wanted to claim it canon, it’s easy to see it as just another earth. Not the Earth of the original Arkham verse
Thanks for a great video. I haven't played Arkham games yet, but I still was able to tell that SQ KTJL was made as individual game first, and then, for no apparent reason, was glued to the world that it wasn't made for.
My guess as for WHY evil batman(Who might be a clone) is not as smart as the real deal, is because cloning process is faulty. Brainiac is smart enough to create such tech, but is unable to stabilize it, so Superman clone is not as durable as real one even tho kryptonite is not doing damage to him, flash clone is fast but can't connect to speedforce same way real flash does, green lantern clone can't properly use ring so it limits his power, and batman is not as smart but has superhuman strenght and durability. If they plan to bring back whole justice league and go with "They were clones" route, then my guess is that at the end of it all, flash reboots the whole thing by going back in time. And if Batman advises him to WHICH point in time he should go back, then my guess is that Flash will go back to the night where scarecrow showed the world who is under batman mask, and he would just save batman from knightfall protocol.
Good point. Before I knew more about the game's story, I used to think they were so weak because brainiac is using them in a way. Like he's controlling them, but doesn't know the extent of the justice leagues abilities
@@ericpratt984 personally, I don't see it that way. I agree just as much as you probably do that this game has shitty writing, I like trying to figure out for myself why a game has something happen. In this case, I'm trying to figure out how a group of crooks with guns can wipe out a group of godlike superheroes
I like the idea because it makes sense of why the justice league was pretty nerfed, and it works with batman, green lantern and flash but then you get to superman and what the heck, the guy not only survived with a kryptonite stabbed on his chest but also while at it was able to kill wonder woman? the original? Just to be killed off by the squad? He even catches boomerang golden kryptonite boomerang, yes he bleeds a bit but he was able to vaporize it anyways
Abither thing is that the flash of the arkham verse couldn't be barry allen. In arkham knight the ads relating to him refers to keystone city. Wally west operates and lives in keystone, while barry operates in central city
Has Barry and Wally been operating as the Flash at the same time? I know Wally was Kid Flash, and after Barry was sucked into the Speedforce, Wally became the Flash. What happened to Wally after Barry came back?
No, Wally isn't the Flash of this universe. He's the Flash on Earth 2, as shown in a few murals. Just like how Hal Jordan is the Green Lantern of Earth 2.
This garbage isn’t canon, Bruce retires peacefully with Selina, Gotham becomes a prosperous and peaceful city with Robin and Oracle as its defenders, Nightwing continues to keep bludhaven safe, and jason earns his redemption while making a name for himself as the Red Hood. My headcannon no one can tell me otherwise 😂
No matter what this game says, arkham knight made it pretty clear that bruce didn't peacefully retire. Both the true ending and the dlc missions confirm that. Also wouldn't him retiring with Selena take away from their goodbye at the end of her side story? And yeah obviously this story does the same thing with him just coming back but my point still stands as well.
@@Enigma75614 nope like it or not SSKTJL is canon Y know games are actually fun when you don’t look for reasons to hate on them again the creators of Arkham batman have stated this is canon like it or not its true
@@Enigma75614 also not when it literally contradicts an entire plot point SSKTJL doesn’t really affect the arkham games in term of consistency besides maybe batmans power level theres no huge inconsistencies as the arkham comics
@@DOOMFIST___1 Bro. The founders of this company left the company before it released. Clearly they weren’t pleased with what happened. No one is looking for reasons to hate the game. We’re hating on it because the story is objectively bad.
The way I see it, How dead shot talks about white dead shot, they are the same person, but the Arkham verse is leaking into this one, the whole time we were playing a different universe and the inconsistencies are that of a totally different universe. Either this is a really smart play to outsmart us, or it really is *bad writing.* and they do plan to make Batman have a return somehow? Perhaps THAT is the Arkham batman we know and love.
To anyone who wants to constantly says this is canon and “it’s cope it is” There sooo many inconsistencies and retcons And that it blows my mind people wanna keep saying it is Not to mention the story itself is so bad I just can’t Also Greta video
Despite them being clones or real league It will not save this games story I defended this game since reveal but the gameplay is to repetitive and the story is so trash despite anyone who wants to cope and say it is
@3:28 if its a clone that makes it SO MUCH WORSE, like why not clone superman a billion times or make a billions rings for the goons, or make thousands of flashs. the clone thing will make the lore 1000% worse then it is.
Even if the justice league are clones, and they do end up coming back, I really doubt that that’s the case because Kevin Conroy is dead and I doubt that he made additional lines for add-on story after the main game
They could get Troy Baker to voice Batman in the next Arkham game. His Batman voice in the LEGO games sounded like Conroy to the point where you don't even notice Conroy replacing him in LEGO DC Supervillains.
@@juanaguilera804Smith would be my pick. I liked his angrier portrayal in Origins, but it would be nice to see him voice an older, more refined Batman
Or they could abandon ssktjl and make a sequel to arkham origins set a few months after blackgate and get roger craig smith to do the voice of batman. And this would also give us more info on what batman was doing between the years of origins and asylum
Harley in SS seems like a carbon copy of Margot Robbie. I like Margot, but Arkham Harley seemed original. I know she’s basically a continuation of BTAS Harley and I love BTAS so that’s amazing in itself. Why copy Margot’s Harley when the Arkham Haley was better than Margot’s? And, there’s an over saturation of Harley in pop culture atm. It’s tiring seeing Harley all over the place when they’re so many other rouges that they could’ve used. I love Harley, but with the overwhelming amount of her in pop culture and other media it’s really tiring. They could’ve made a BatWoman game set after AK. You hear Kate on a VM in Bruce’s office. They could’ve just written a game where she takes on the Mantle of The Bat. You could’ve said that she was being trained and that stopped on Halloween after Bruce got unmasked. She goes to the Batcave where she find Bruce and Alfred, and Bruce unveils a suit he made her and she goes out into the night. Bruce, Alfred and Barbra would be on comms helping her throughout her journey. For a villain you could have Deathstroke. He comes back to Gotham to end the entire Batfamily and Kate, along with Dick, Tim and Jason fight him. He’s not the Deathstroke we see in AK but a more ruthless version of him from AO. And it takes everyone to beat him. And at the very end, Bruce puts the Cowl back on one last time to take down Deathstroke because he’s nearly killed the entire Batfamily. That would’ve been better than the 70$ pos we got.
The reason SS harley is like Margot is because the devs didnt care about their own universe character and wanted to appeal to casual fans thats why she is like that same with deadshot
Dude was the first and probably only person (forgot any other person who might figured it out) to figure out batmans identity but yeah they severely nerfed him atleast hes spared from this garbage
It is Knightfall protocol, he did not die. He continued being Batman, but it drove him to a darker path. If you read some comics you would know how this stuff all played out.
@@willtheiam 🤦♂️You don’t get the point of knight at all do you. It is meant to be how Batman himself is gone. Again Batman states that Gotham needs a new saver. Bruce doesn’t die in Knight dude. He fakes his death, then he goes and uses fear toxin. The manor blowing up is just for shock and to fake his death.
2:57- I'm surprised Tara Strong hasn't received death threats for this. I mean, gamers hounded the actress from Last of Us Part II or whatever, because her character killed off someone beloved, and I heard Peter Blomquist received some hate over Micah Bell's actions in RDR2.
Sometimes even if the studio who made the project said something like this "canon" thing it still should be believable , it should make sense , if it didn't make sense then it simply not true , great video pal , keep going
Willing to bet that in a future DLC we'll see the actual Arkham-verse and it's revealed that we've been following a parallel universe the whole time. This would allow it to be "canon" because then every inconsistency & issue that fans have would be invalidated. As you mentioned, almost every attempt at explaining inconsistencies has been a round-about way like the original Deadshot being from another universe instead of something simple like "I picked up the mantel after the previous guy died" meanwhile there are plenty of things that aren't addressed at all (like Harley & Ivy being a romantic thing when at most they were friends based on the very limited amount of scenes together) This leaves the door open for them to flip it around and say "See! It's not inconsistent because it was a different version the whole time!" The thing though is that unless this was planned from the beginning, we might not get any kind of reveal like that. It could very well just be bad writing which then means there's a chance for them to just ignore all the complaints because attempting to retcon would be "validating the haters" I didn't play the game (as looter-shooters aren't my thing) but I did watch a full let's play and I agree that most of the game's problems stem from "it's canon to the Arkham games" there's a lot of good moments and character banter, so many inconsistencies would be fixed if this was just "an else world story" especially since that's used as the foundation for the story. I was surprised at how early the multiverse was introduced because I thought that was going to be an endgame plot twist to justify more content but no it's pretty integral to the story. It's obvious that this game was heavily influenced by the 2016 movie (especially since the game has been in development for so long) so various things with the characters were either inspired by or possibly mandated by higher-ups but there is a way to make it "canon" to the Arkham-verse. If I am right about this, then it should've been part of the marketing. I mean practically everyone pointed out that Deadshot was a different guy, being upfront about it being a multiverse story would've saved a lot of frustration & confusion.
Those Assault On Arkham “continuity errors” are so dumb because they can easily be explained.. First one already explains how it is wrong Second one is an artistic direction and could be interpreted as the asylum still in early stages thus doesn’t have that many rules Third one doesn’t matter because scarecrow has most likely been wearing the glasgow smile before arkham asylum Last one could be explained with the penguin having an injury on his hand on one of his daily fish eating routine So yeah the movie is canon.
I personally like to believe that SSKTJL is set in an alternate timeline where the Knightfall protocol never happened despite Bruce being unmasked, which gives an explanation to why he's still Batman but with Fear Toxin added to his arsenal, which also is my way of explaining the bullshit with Deadshot.
The character has been disrespected since it's been adopted even in comic books he has been out of character and disrespected multiple already, people think just because Batman has the most content the fans are enjoying it but they Don't know literally 99.9% of those are inaccurate and disrespectful ones, even The Dark Knight trilogy is not a good adaptation, Almost all characters are accurate except Batman itself, ofcourse there are few others as well Talla Al Ghul, Ra's Al Ghul Victor Zsasz, and little bit of Bane but mostly he's accurate though, and some others but that's the point Gordon, alfred, joker were a lot accurate but The Batman Character has been inaccurate, destroyed, ruined made way less cool and stupid , so many years and still elements of Batman Fear with signal and Loneliness has been brought now even though it's been from the start in the comic Books and that also not adopted accurately either., at this point it feel like even very positively that after atleast 900000 years we will get 1% accurate Batman, and that also would be a miracle even though it's wishful positive thinking. Sorry if you find this troublesome I just wanted let out a I fell after getting Inaccurate adaptations of The Batman so many infinite times already.
Also King Shark already existed in the Arkham Verse, if you check Character Bios in Asylum and the evidence lockup in Knight you will see the human version of the character, meaning he isn’t even a fucking shark in the Arkham Verse lmao.
This game is just a cynical piece of crap, a clear example of a monetary pursuit above all. It shafts any good will it had with the fans by following trends and forcing it in and breaking existing lore, making a product that is a straight abomination. Let's make Harley into Margot Robbie rip off, add the lesbo tension she had with Poison Ivy from the popular adult series, let's make Deadshot black, because of Will Smith, let's put it into Arkhamverse, because Arkham games are popular and recognizable. Let's make this single player into always-online looter shooter, let's make it into a Multiverse and self referential sarcastic humor, because of MCU, let's bring back Joker, because he's a fan favorite, let's introduce gender swapped Mr.( Ms.) Freeze, so it would appeal to a progressive crowd, etc, etc, etc... It just stinks of corporate circlejerking. Ughh, pisses me off...
While I will never personally accept the atrocity called "Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice League" as canon, you are reaching a bit here... first off "taking down/out" Killer Moth doesn't necessarily mean "kill" him, and even if you do take that as confirmation that he's canonically dead, Waller's "FIND me Killer Moth" doesn't confirm that he's alive again. It may be out of character for Waller, but she may not be aware or 100% convinced that he's dead if he actually is. Secondly, "Batman would never lose to these guys" also doesn't mean that this isn't canon, as Luke Skywalker, the guy who was the only person in the galaxy to believe in the good within mass murderer Darth Vader and risked everything on that belief, would never even consider for a split-second to murder his nephew and best friend's son in his sleep because of a bad feeling of vaguely-defined darkness, much less to abandon the galaxy and his sister to die on a desolate planet, and yet the Sequels are official canon. Us wanting consistent and good writing for the characters we love doesn't decanonize the garbage these people vomit onto the screen to push their agenda. Based on how ALL of the heroes, save for maybe Diana, are written, I wouldn't consider them canon to ANY previously established, popular DC plotline, least of all Arkham. I don't even agree with your statement that it would've been acceptable if it hadn't been connected to the Arkhamverse. And even still, none of that makes it not canon. Your next point is just bizarre if you think about it. You basically say "if we take this audio recording, which cements this game as part of the Arkhamverse canonically, at face value, then it proves that this game isn't part of the Arkhamverse canonically". Think about it. Deadshot says something that tries to explain away one of the major giveaways that we're in a different franchise, his skin-color, by alluding to the multiverse, basically saying "yes, I'm black and should be white, but it makes sense and we're thus in the Arkhamverse after all" and you take that as evidence that we're not in the Arkhamverse. If you acknowledge the recording to use it for your argumentation, you acknowledge the narrative that we, in fact, are in the same universe. Once again, it just boils down to bad writing and Sweet Baby Inc. ruining yet another franchise, not to the fact that we're in a different world. Your further argumentation is much of the same: "Harley is too strong", "Batman is too weak", "Scaling makes no sense", etc. - again, all bad writing. You basically prove that point with a throwaway line, when you say that the Flash has made a fool out of Boomerang countless times WITHIN THIS GAME'S OWN CANON and yet he's a laughable boss fight that makes no sense IN THIS VERY GAME. How does it make sense that the Flash is too fast to be hit by bullets, so to defeat him you have to first HIT HIM with a special BULLET? It's bad writing. It's also very ironic how you gloss over the fact that Assault on Arkham has multiple loose points and continuity issues that qualify it as non-canon, while you do exactly the same thing for Suicide Squad with this video. You point out that irony, but you ironically don't see the actual irony. 😅 "If people are willing to just uncanonize an entire movie, that was said to be canon, simply based on a couple [of] continuity errors, [...]" "If Knerd is willing to just uncanonize an entire game, that was said to be canon, simply based on a couple [of] continuity errors, [...]" Both have inconsitencies and thus (more or less) bad writing. The main difference between the two is that Assault on Arkham is handled much more competently, but based on the continuity errors, even if the one's are more "significant" than the other's, neither should be canon, yet both officially are. Lastly, the game insulting legacy characters is just one more item on the list that can be explained by bad writers and a massive agenda. Sweet Baby Inc. is one part of that equation, but it would be lazy to just blame it all on them. The folks at Rocksteady must've been willing to put this bullshit on the screen, and SBI was probably welcomed with open arms, but the result is the same: Let the past die. Kill it if you have to. The Flash, Green Lantern, Batman, Luthor... everyone got disrespected in major ways, Boomerang was obvious comic relief, Deadshot was a more serious and (anti-)heroic character, so he is now black, Diana may be white and a hero, but she's at least female, so her death is treated as something tragic, even though the Flash was literally pissed on, despite literally saving the Suicide Squad's lives at multiple points. None of that, sadly, makes the game not official canon, and there are many more examples of this. I already mentioned the Star Wars sequels and how they shouldn't be canon, but there's also The Last of Us Part II, where the problem is NOT that Joel dies or that his death was brutal, but how he got methodically dismantled as a character by the bad writing before it happens, and how every action and plotline from the previous game got recontextualized for the narrative of the shitty game to work. Or how Indiana Jones got a miserable old fool who literally wanted to die to make room for the much superior female HERo for most of the Dial of Destiny. Even the Mandalorian got side-lined and quasi-replaced in his own show in the third season. Not to mention Peter Parker, who gets put in his place, has to constantly apologize for exisitng and ultimately tells Miles that he's more than enough to do the job and should take over as Spider-Man (it's actually funny that you used the opposite as your example, as Miles isn't a straight white male). There are many, many examples of this, and we see it increasingly often in sequels, where, for example, a character who married and/or had a child at the end of the previous entry, starts the sequel off alone and it is implied (or outright said) that they are a bad husband and/or father, or they outright get replaced by a character who is more in line with the current-day politics. And while it is tempting to do what you do, and simply point out all the narrative dissonances and mistakes and proclaim that the latest entry isn't canon, that is rarely actually the case. *Edit:* Should've finished the video before posting this. I find the "humor" of this game abysmal, the gameplay loop shallow as hell, and none of the characters likeable. The motivations make little to no sense, the background chatter is annoying as hell, the disrespect to all of the characters (including the Suicide Squad) is painful to watch, the ending is extremely anticlimatic, and the threat/promise of killing a dozen more Brainiacs in future DLC makes me cringe hard. Saying the game would be good or even just decent if the Arkham connection wasn't a thing is the one point I disagree with this video the hardest. It's garbage, and I wouldn't shed a tear if it spelled the end of the studio (in its current iteration - shame about what Rocksteady used to be).
I considered playing this game until I heard about Batman’s death and how it was Arkham canon. How this is related to the coolest Batman games ever is baffling to me.
According to the report, Rocksteady was originally working on a new IP called Stones following the release of Batman: Arkham Knight, while WB Games Montreal (the studio behind Batman: Arkham Origins and Gotham Knights) was working on its own Suicide Squad game. Warner Bros., apparently eager to cash-in on the theatrical success of the 2016 Suicide Squad movie, cancelled those projects and began discussing a new Suicide Squad game with then-Rocksteady studio heads Jamie Walker and Sefton Hill. Walker and Hill apparently "saw it as a better opportunity than making something new from scratch" and were hopeful development would wrap in 2019 or 2020.
We all know that the reason they set it in the Arkham universe is because no one would be interested in the game otherwise.
That is kind of just ignorant just to say. If it was “another” version again it is just as the same if it was another Batman. Still had his parents die having him build the batfamily, him joining the justice league again really look how much it is just having it as another Batman. Because it would just be the same feeling.
@@ashcraft257that’s because it’s literally the main story to all versions of Batman
@@JKZ0000ME Ok, so same experiences in some way so same fucking outcome, the only difference is that these are games.
@@ashcraft257 it’s not the same ending for every Batman
@@JKZ0000ME That isn’t what I said and you know it. Again if it the same experience same outcome of becoming Batman, all of this that makes him Batman. It would just be the same even if it was Arkhamverse. Again he is another Batman we love this version because it means a lot to us. That I understand but just ask yourself. If it is Batman and this game came out it would still be the same thing. Again this version of Batman is done with for all we know we are getting better games. And a new universe which Gunn is most likely trying to do.
Daily reminder: Arkham Batman appeared in the comics, where he is still active in Gotham, I go with that timeline for canon😂
The Arkham tie-in comics aren't canon...
@@HOTD108_he actually had a Cameo in the main DC universe.
@@HOTD108_they have more right to be called canon than this garbage game
@@generalj216 ...uh, yeah, because the main dc comics are literally the batman canon
You know, we all have our own opinions when it comes to what and what is not cannon, aside from what others say.
In my opinion Arkham ended with Knight and it's DLCs, it was a good sendoff to a series of games that have been so good, bordering on perfect.
I hate how every versión of Harvey quinn after the sucide squad (2016) just become a margot Robbie rip-off, even if the character was pretty different before
finally someone said it
not her faukt thought studios just love to milk things to much
Overrated character in DC Woman Villain, even she hasn't have any power geezz...
Seriously, it's driving me insane.
Its called sociopolitical retcon and you are a "bigoted sexist nazi" for not liking their changing it.
“Continuation of the Arkham verse”
*disrespects Arkham batman*
The justice league got the sams raimi's spider-man 2 treatment
@@kaistemino do you mean 3? because 2 is a masterpiece the raimi trilogy was the blueprint for ALL superhero films before iron man or dark knight were even concepts.
@@darthvulpes3069For Me Batman Returns is still the best live-adaptation out there Batman Begins is the best in the trilogy.
that's not batman they're disrespecting.
do you SERIOUSLY think they are fighting the real justice league in this game?
theres strong evidence showing that the justice league shown was not the true league, but clones made by brainiac. the real league (including batman) are still being held by brainiac, i'd wager.
like, for real. comics do this trick. all the time. yes. even with batman.
ok i'm not defending this, but neither am i sitting there going "hum... yes... that sure is the real arkhamverse batman they are fighting and not some kind of clone."
i mean if this was the real league dc and warner brothers would have a fit.
SSKTJL writers literally making up a Deadshot from an alternate universe where literally fucking nothing is different but his skin color instead of just not changing his fucking skin color
Thanks to sweet baby inc's blackwashing
@@jobt1999 No Deadshot fan cares if they make him black. So what? We just didn’t want him to have the personality of Will Smith, as opposed to Floyd. The Suicide Squad 2016 movie is at fault here. This character has NOTHING the comic version had, and not even anything from the Arkham movie.
They could have just made him black and been upfront about the silly retcon. But no, they had to ruin his character. 😄😄🔫
Couldn't Rocksteady have thought of something more simple if they really wanted a retcon? You know, something like "the original Deadshot in Origins/City either died or retired and this new guy is a legacy character". The whole alternate universe stuff is too complicated for something really trivial.
It’s that important to them
Couldn't they just use bloodsport? I mean harley quinn already fills the batman antagonist role.
It’s very telling that Sefton Hill and Jamie Walker left Rocksteady and formed a new studio before this game released. There was very clearly a power struggle at the studio, and they unfortunately lost.
That because Greedy out of touch WB wanted to jump on the shooter game market. But what they didn't realize is they tried to mix chocolate with sour cream. Great on their own but together it don't mix. You can't force a mix. You can't force superhero theme in shooters it just doesn't work.
@@theinsurance2450sefton hill wrote this games story he also helped lead it most of the OG Arkham team made this game which makes me wonder why they all quit before it was supposed to launch originally they started Development of the game 7 years ago
@@theinsurance2450WB are bleeding money because of all their failed dc films (literally losing them hundreds of millions) and the thought that turning their games into live service GAAS games would save them but it just made things worse lmfao
WB probably aimed their guns on both their heads lol
it’s even more telling that Sefton Hill is the only and lead story creator lmfao cope harder
I wish the Rocksteady original game developers didn't leave.
Maybe it was a good thing.
@@killuafanboy3812 For real
I hope the originals make more great games in the new studio
Imagine if they were the ones who made Gotham Knights or even a Arkham Batman Beyond game. 😢
@SniperKing-O I like Gotham Knights. Made a vid on it. Also talked a bit about my thoughts on Suicide squad. It looks like a game I might enjoy cause I love fighting bad guys in pretty much any game, but I don't like how they ended Batman.
Original creators had little control over this project and such is not "canon" to me, these days when corporations "buy" the rights and then wear these properties like skin suits destroying themes, writing, and continuity while saying this is connected to a story that's already loved, we need to just start ignoring these entries and simply state: We know you "own the rights" but we simply do not care.
were it so easy.
Best & most honest explanation so far.
That's exactly how I feel about the Fallout series and Bethesda. To me, Fallout will never be theirs, no matter what they say or do - the last Fallout was New Vegas. The original Fallout universe is simply too different from the games that characterize Bethesda's identity - this is why they made Fallout 3, 4, and 76 as they did. These are shooter-action titles, not real roleplaying games.
@@eagleone0oneand Star Wars goes without saying to w
@@Bman32xThis was neither of those things though
People, why hasn't anyone ever said that Captain Boomerang is dead too?! If you don't believe me, read Batman: Arkham Knight #22 (page 19). This comic book series tells what happened in Gotham before the events of the game Arkham Knight.
Different Parallel Universe!
@@hurricane7727he also died in assult on arkham
@@Mrhouse-k1x You must be misremembering because Boomerang is one of the few who is clearly very much alive at the end of that movie. He's last seen cursing Deadshot for escaping Arkham in a helicopter without him.
This will NEVER be canon, or at least I refuse to be believe it’s apart of the Arkham verse. These devs out here really be thinkin they can get away with disrespecting my boy Arkham Batman. I believe this game takes place in its own universe, in the same way the Batman movie starring Robert Pattinson takes place in its own continuity.
This 100%
The game is not canon! Great video btw
Copium. But it definitely shouldn’t be
Definitely not canon. And it doesn't matter what rocksteady says, because they made alot of inconsistencies with it
yes it Canon ok
The original Arkham devs didn’t make it so it really can’t be
It is canon
Black deadshot,
penguin has a green glass in his eye instead of white (* for reference someone got mad and shoved a beer bottle in penguins eye which is white bot green) so they want you to belive penguin had it removed and replaced with a green one haha,
Harley queen and ivy when that was never a thing in arkham,
Harley queen having issues doing things to kids when in Canon of arkham she did many things that hurt kids such as drugging them with drugs and jokers blood
Harley knowing how to make fear toxin when scarecrow would never let her know how to do so, as in Canon he offs anyone who knows anything about it.
Tfx tanking fear toxin like they got a little drink when it had batman on his knees in asylum and knight.
And much more.
Also Harleys old outfits are made fun of by Harley and tfx when she literally made said outfits herself because she liked the style, as opposed to the implication of it being forced on her.
@@Elnegro.. Clearly the Harley Quinn in Kill the Justice League was based more on recent incarnations of the character such as Margot Robbie's version and the animated version than the Arkham Harley.
@@SeanWheeler100 Yeah, they run with the "popular" Harley over the canonical Harley.
A "popular" Harley who I honestly don't even think is popular, only popular in the social justice woman power circles aka Hollywood.
I think the new developers just watched Harley Quinn Tv Show on HBO and see how Harley and Ivy are couple and just make it canon and put it in the game.
Even though throughout in Arkham games:
-Asylum: Harley and Ivy only interract once when Ivy begs Harley to get out of her cell anddd that's it
-City: Harley is busy taking care of sick Joker and Ivy is having a beef with Selina / Catwoman
-Origins: Ivy isn't on this game but Harley who was still Harleen met Joker at first time
-Knight: Harley is still grieving over the Joker's death and has her own gang while Ivy eventually helps Batman and sacrifice herself for Gotham
@@margarethmichelina5146 Forgot to mention Harley and her gang were trying to bring back joker, and she's so desperate she poisoned a old man with jokers blood and was all over him like cotton candy.
I am actually surprised by how much detail this video actually goes into. Absolutely fire video
This game is an embarrassment to the arkhamverse and a complete disrespect to Kevin conroy’s batman may he rest in peace
Batman Arkham knight was a love letter to Batman Arkham fans, and suicide squad kill the justice league is a break up letter to Batman Arkham fans
Here’s one you might have missed: the Injustice Gang is mentioned in a Magazine in Arkham City-implying that the Justice League *was* around during the events of the Arkham Trilogy, regardless of what Rocksteady wants to claim.
Really? That's interesting?
It's Quadrilogy, please remember Batman Arkham Origins for fucking please
no
@@gabrielvelosa2597
@@gabrielvelosa2597 triolgy?
@@gabrielvelosa2597 origins is about a past, not about the arkham current timeline.
You do realize Amanda waller gets shot by deadshot and killed in that same animated movie and now is back to life
He aimed at her never took the shot
She didn't die tho. Deadshot was going to shoot her, but it was later stated Batman intervened. Waller is also mentioned later on too.
@@Zhello79 where?
@@WithcherKnight1307 ● Deadshot said: "Bang" aloud, before he smiled, which implied that he was going to shoot Waller. However, as later confirmed by Deadshot, Batman intervened and prevented him from assassinating Waller.
Waller was the one who played a role to get Deadshot even getting into Arkham City alongside Hugo Strange. She pretty much wanted to get Deadshot back into Task Force X, granted he was out for a long time.
@@Zhello79 I understand
U can basically say whether ‘Assault on Arkham’ or ‘Kill the Justice League’ is your preferred canon to the Arkhamverse.
Assault on Arkham every time
@@generalj216 I actually like King Shark in KTJL and the Assault on Akrahm one is way too weird, but that's my only criticism
No. One is canon. One isn't. You know which one isn't.
@l0sts0ul89 no matter how much hate KTJL gets, king shark and boomerang are pretty spot-on
What is weird is Rocksteady retcon'd Assault on Arkham but the Riddler in SSKTJL made a small reference to it. Not to mention Cobblepot mentioned the other King Shark.
That’s because the original Rocksteady team left after Arkham Knight and the new team never bothered to do any research.
Harley's jiggle physics in Asylum were peak.
@@fredbear666shyam9 no, I just woke up.
@@fredbear666shyam9No lies detected tho-
What a disaster of a game, i have zero enthusiasm to even watch a gameplay of this game on yt. The Arkham franchise ended with knight, plain and simple!!
more like the arkham verse ended with city lol
@@Wizardjones69what? Why
@@Gaku1k the story of knight still pretty bad, the story of the arkham verse pretty much can end after joker dies in city
@@Wizardjones69 in your opinion
@@Wizardjones69 knight had its flaws and could've been better for sure but atleast it respected batman and the rest of the characters. Not to mention the graphics are ridiculously good even 9 over years on.
You forgot to mention White Deadshot has a daughter himself. So, even if it was canon there would be to Zoes
Oh... oh no. He killed a single father.
I like how Batman actually used his disruptor in the first encounter where he one shot everyone, but then just went "no, i don't think i will" in the actual boss fight.
I like to think that Brainiac is keeping the JL in his ship and made clones of them and put their memories inside of them because they're a valuable asset to conquer the multiverse, and Batman's brain somehow didn't transfer well to the clone due to the Fear Toxins in his brain, that's my head canon
Now you made me scared of a Sinister Six: Kill the Avengers type game after bringing up Miles Morales
*Thunderbolts: Kill the Avengers
@@omega6749 Yeah that's more accurate except the ThunderBolts are actually more dangerous and could realistically do that although I hate the thought anyways.
People called assault on Arkham non canon yet this damn game is ....cap
What is cap?
@@robogreek3157it’s slang for not true
cause assault on arkham is such a shid movie
this game is too@@heathclips4066
Assault on Arkham did a good job in being true to its source by having the Asylum setting accurate to the game
It feels refreshing seeing actual criticism, not just some dumb hate
Word
@CJD_XAnd if they do? You ain’t finna do shh as far as I’m concerned.
The gameplay is repetitive sure, but there’s comedic moments..
You can’t literally hate every moment about this game.
If you do, I won’t stop you, I can’t control anybody..
But don’t ruin that for anyone else else because of your own feelings about a simple game
Agreed it’s a great change of pace
@@Hawk-yq4lnif a comment on TH-cam ruins a game for someone's that's there problem bro
To add onto your Batman point, Batman directly says in Arkham City that "facing armed thugs head on is suicide. I need to conceal myself, plan out my strategy." When he first goes to the church and YEETS Harley Quinn with ease. Batman is beyond genius level, and Suicide Squad Batman with fear toxin, still for some reason decides to face armed thugs head on. Either an absolute destruction of Batman's intelligence while OK WITH KILLING, or this is another universe that has no connection to Arkham.
Batman beyond :❌
Stupid squad Kill rocksteady :✅
WB did a much similar thing with the now canceled Batman Beyond movie in favor of a Minecraft movie.
So, _Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice League_ is not set in what almost every fan refers to as "the Arkhamverse" (the main continuity), but an alternate continuity of the _Batman: Arkham_ video game franchise.
This game was such a disappointment, even Arkham asylum has more steam players than suicide squad.
This game manages to contradict its previous material more than TLJ it literally can't be canonical
Can I just say that a Legion of Doom: Kill the Justice League would've been a far more interesting premise? You could still have Brainiac as the endgame villain, but it'd make sense for the people to kill the Justice League to be their respective arch-nemeses.
I'd set it outside the Arkham-verse so you could bring back Joker as well.
This actually would work better since its got all the Justice Leagues arch nemesis, seeing as though they know their weaknesses
@@smitty_werben_jagerman_jensen
Yeah just imagine playing as Death Stroke or even Metallo, we could keep Boomerang or switch him with Captain Cold, I actually liked King Shark so maybe add Aquaman as a boss.
The Injustice Gang had a Easter Egg all the way back in Arkham Asylum, and add in prometheus as a major lead role in the game and Rocksteady would have gone full circle with the Arkham Games. Though if you ask me, I would’ve had the Main Characters be the Titans, it just works the best thematic and story-wise, it adds a huge emotional conflict for our leads as they have to take on and potentially kill their Mentors.
Plus this concept alone reminds a lot of the young justice s1 finale, especially the bit where Robin and Superboy switch targets as they can’t beat their respective Mentors 1 on 1.
I agree strongly. Suicide Squad should still be a game, just not against the Justice League.
How about a "Suicide Squad: Kill the Crime Syndicate"? So the Squad can fight something akin to the Justice League without killing the beloved characters. Maybe they can have Brainiac pulling the strings from behind and the true League coming in aid of the Squad. Not saying that it would be automatically a better game, but definitely a less controversial one.
This game would be great to be in the Injustice universe imo. It would help with a lot of the inconsistenties, their plot armour for example, there was a pill that let regular people take on superman level powers. There's even the multiverse already established in that series, it could have helped hype up the 3rd Injustice (if it's confirmed, I haven't been keeping too up with it).
Not to mention, the Arkham-verse wouldn't be so disrespected.
I'm glad they've made it officially simple to seperate the perfect Arkham series from this mess. It's like the devs did so much damage, it literally cannot be taken seriously as a continuation
How did batman lose to the suicide squad? Is he stupid?
I mean he loses to guns pretty fast if any get a shot on him in Arkham
@@lightdarksoul2097 yea ik I just said that for the memes.
But you're also 100% right
@@dSWISHm still the SS game was dumb since we don't know what really happened a lot like fighting scarecrow. The situation is never clearly defined
@@lightdarksoul2097 well its live service so im sure we'll find out eventually
I hate this stupid meme to no end, but this is the one case where I'll allow it because this Batman *is* stupid
I had also noticed these inconsistencies and found it strange, but what probably happened was just that they didn't know or didn't remember these small details, since no one who made Arkhamverse participated in this game
The writers probably didn’t even notice the inconsistencies.
No one who ever heard of the arkhamverse made this game*
Being writers their main job is to know what they are writing about, it's a joke 😂
And it's a video game...some changes are made for gameplay... like batman getting the grapnel boost in arkham city...yet he has it in arkham origins
@@robogreek3157thank you
This game is 100% not canon, but something i just realized is that the squad needed some sort of gadgets to take out each member, and early on we see them get taken out by batman in one fell swoop via predator style combat. It would have been cool if they showed batman use the disrupter on their guns the first time, to show that they need to upgrade their weapons to be able to resist batmans tampering, and have the "boss fight" just be them resisting the fear toxin like batman did with scarecrow to then have a predetor style rematch against batman, this time with their guns and gadgets. I dont like the story but this would have made it a little more fun.
that’s essentially what happened in the game minus the actual use of the disruptor🤦🏽♂️🤦🏽♂️🤦🏽♂️
@@urkelbot2099 in the first encounter they can use weapons just not the travel gadgets and the fight in itself is just batman using fear toxin, and them avoiding batmans predator-esque takedowns to change the toxin. Then just bullet sponge batman and they win. What i mean is that in the first encounter they show off batman using the disruptor to take away all of their gear and being wrecked by him (similar but they literally have nothing) and the boss starts with the bullet sponge and the second phase is them actually fighting back against batman as he tries to do predators style takedowns, this time being more difficult since they have weapons now that cant be disrupted...heck and maybe even add like gizmo chiming in to help them find batman like how in AK he can be tracked with detective mode idk.
Killer moth’s death might just not be widely known in the world
But you would think Amanda Waller of all people would know he’s dead
@@woodsylightning what resource of hers would tell her that though? She’s not all knowing, she just has connections to the government and stuff.
@@Was1Too it'd be out of character for her to not know
The thugs did say Red Hood, "Took down Killer Moth" but doesn't always mean kill, even if it was Red Hood that did it. If Waller is calling Killer Moth he might be injured but somehow still alive like how Batgirl was in Arkham Knight.
Another inconsistency with Harley was that it was heavily implied that she and Ivy were a couple. But it doesn't make sense at all, because Ivy died in Arkham Knight and in that game, Harley was very clearly still grieving and obsessing over the Joker, there were no hints or implications that they were together, even after Ivy died. So, when could they have possibly gotten together??
also the fact ivy is now a child in this one?
@@DanteDMCrules i think it was explained or heavily implied that Ivy was reborn after her death, which is why she's a kid, but honestly, they should have stuck to her being dead.
I like GothamPaladin's theory of the game being set on another Earth in the arkham multiverse. As mentioned there are too many inconsistencies to where it is impossible for the world seen in Suicide Squad Kill The Justice League to be the same as the one in the other arkham games. So, it is likely that SSKJL is set on another Earth especially because of the game's whole multiverse gimmick.
I think that earth 2 was the original arkhamverse and this one is a clone universe where there's a ton of continuity errors.
Yuhh
Earth 2 is a wasteland in the game. It's the one with redhead luthor.
@@Cosmic_62exactly and a universe no one cares for
The best thing they did was change deadshot because now everyone can seperate this reality from the arkhamverse
I think the writers were high when they wrote the story
on paint thinner...
Well, the original writers for the Arkham Series left Rocksteady, leaving a bunch of inexperienced interns to write and make a “sequel” to a PERFECT series
also for killer moth, he is beaten up in the second issue of the suicide squad comic, by arkham guards after knight
Yeah, Deadshot part convinced me. Great video.
I would say another thing; Batman's resistance to mind control. Batman is known in many different stories to resist and even overcome mind control. He overcomes Talia's and Darkseids mind control, as well as stops Trigons attempts to control him in the DCAU for instance, and in the Arkhamverse he overcomes the Mad Hatter twice, Joker's blood taking him over and the Fear Toxin. It feels very out of character for Barry to be the only one who overcomes the mind control for a little bit. I feel like it would've made way more sense if, after being beaten, he break out of the mind control like Barry did, maybe he doesn't have control over his body, but he tells the Suicide Squad how to beat Superman directly and suggests to use him as bait, killing him before Brainiac could take him back completely.
Even then, *Crisis on Two Earths* tells me that there’s at least 100 different ARKHAMVERSE earths, due to different decisions & scenarios. So even if they REALLY wanted to claim it canon, it’s easy to see it as just another earth. Not the Earth of the original Arkham verse
Guys Lets Just Give SSKTJL The Pacific Rim Sequel Treatment
What Pacific Rim Sequel?
@@grahamanderegg3291exactly
What sequel?
There was a sequel?
I don’t remember there being a pacific rim sequel, but there is a Netflix show which is really good
It's definitely one of the elseworlds cuz penguin somehow has hair even through he is bald in arkham knight
Thanks for a great video. I haven't played Arkham games yet, but I still was able to tell that SQ KTJL was made as individual game first, and then, for no apparent reason, was glued to the world that it wasn't made for.
My guess as for WHY evil batman(Who might be a clone) is not as smart as the real deal, is because cloning process is faulty. Brainiac is smart enough to create such tech, but is unable to stabilize it, so Superman clone is not as durable as real one even tho kryptonite is not doing damage to him, flash clone is fast but can't connect to speedforce same way real flash does, green lantern clone can't properly use ring so it limits his power, and batman is not as smart but has superhuman strenght and durability. If they plan to bring back whole justice league and go with "They were clones" route, then my guess is that at the end of it all, flash reboots the whole thing by going back in time. And if Batman advises him to WHICH point in time he should go back, then my guess is that Flash will go back to the night where scarecrow showed the world who is under batman mask, and he would just save batman from knightfall protocol.
Good point. Before I knew more about the game's story, I used to think they were so weak because brainiac is using them in a way. Like he's controlling them, but doesn't know the extent of the justice leagues abilities
What's the point of even making those excuses? They would still wipe the floor with these guys.
@@ericpratt984 personally, I don't see it that way. I agree just as much as you probably do that this game has shitty writing, I like trying to figure out for myself why a game has something happen. In this case, I'm trying to figure out how a group of crooks with guns can wipe out a group of godlike superheroes
I like the idea because it makes sense of why the justice league was pretty nerfed, and it works with batman, green lantern and flash but then you get to superman and what the heck, the guy not only survived with a kryptonite stabbed on his chest but also while at it was able to kill wonder woman? the original? Just to be killed off by the squad? He even catches boomerang golden kryptonite boomerang, yes he bleeds a bit but he was able to vaporize it anyways
Oooh I would love that.
Abither thing is that the flash of the arkham verse couldn't be barry allen. In arkham knight the ads relating to him refers to keystone city. Wally west operates and lives in keystone, while barry operates in central city
Barry could just be in Keystone
Has Barry and Wally been operating as the Flash at the same time? I know Wally was Kid Flash, and after Barry was sucked into the Speedforce, Wally became the Flash. What happened to Wally after Barry came back?
@@SeanWheeler100In the current comics, Barry and Wally are both running as the Flash, with Wally's cousin Wallace as another Kid Flash.
@@Montesama314 There, Barry and Wally are both operating as the Flash. Plot hole closed.
No, Wally isn't the Flash of this universe. He's the Flash on Earth 2, as shown in a few murals. Just like how Hal Jordan is the Green Lantern of Earth 2.
Thank you for including Origins in canon ^^
yeah because orgins is conon
Imagine not including peak in canon.
@@CenoriaWoah🤡
@@gringo6362🏳️🌈
Amazing video, great video!
The effort you put into your videos, man.. you're probably the best new Arkham channel on this platform.
This garbage isn’t canon, Bruce retires peacefully with Selina, Gotham becomes a prosperous and peaceful city with Robin and Oracle as its defenders, Nightwing continues to keep bludhaven safe, and jason earns his redemption while making a name for himself as the Red Hood. My headcannon no one can tell me otherwise 😂
Nah Damian became Batman like in the cancelled game.
@@newhybrid101 well yeah my headcannon could still lead up to Damian Wayne becoming Batman.
Isn't it implied that Bruce returns as ''The Ghost?'' There are a few times in the Arkham Episodes where you hear thugs talking about ''The Ghost.''
No matter what this game says, arkham knight made it pretty clear that bruce didn't peacefully retire. Both the true ending and the dlc missions confirm that. Also wouldn't him retiring with Selena take away from their goodbye at the end of her side story? And yeah obviously this story does the same thing with him just coming back but my point still stands as well.
@@BatMan-qr3kf brah it’s a headcannon… it ain’t meant to be taken seriously 🤣
I didn't even know that I needed to see this video. Thank you.
9:43 Captain Boomerang also got killed by Deadshot in one of the Arkham Knight comics for disobeying orders.
Those aren’t canon to the games
@@DOOMFIST___1 They’re more canon than this garbage.
@@Enigma75614 nope like it or not SSKTJL is canon Y know games are actually fun when you don’t look for reasons to hate on them again the creators of Arkham batman have stated this is canon like it or not its true
@@Enigma75614 also not when it literally contradicts an entire plot point SSKTJL doesn’t really affect the arkham games in term of consistency besides maybe batmans power level theres no huge inconsistencies as the arkham comics
@@DOOMFIST___1 Bro. The founders of this company left the company before it released. Clearly they weren’t pleased with what happened. No one is looking for reasons to hate the game. We’re hating on it because the story is objectively bad.
Happy to see your watermark proudly displayed! You deserve all the credit for your own hard work.
The way I see it, How dead shot talks about white dead shot, they are the same person, but the Arkham verse is leaking into this one, the whole time we were playing a different universe and the inconsistencies are that of a totally different universe. Either this is a really smart play to outsmart us, or it really is *bad writing.* and they do plan to make Batman have a return somehow? Perhaps THAT is the Arkham batman we know and love.
When you bring all of this up it is pretty obvious that this game is not canon
A lot of his points are probably related like that isn’t an argument.
@@ashcraft257 Did you even watch the video dude?
@@joelikescherrypie16 Yes I did, most of his points can be explained.
@ashcraft9514 then explain them? Or are you just coping with your not canon pos game? Lmao
@@spaceman9396 I am not the one coping here, you are.
To anyone who wants to constantly says this is canon and “it’s cope it is”
There sooo many inconsistencies and retcons
And that it blows my mind people wanna keep saying it is
Not to mention the story itself is so bad I just can’t
Also Greta video
Despite them being clones or real league
It will not save this games story
I defended this game since reveal but the gameplay is to repetitive and the story is so trash despite anyone who wants to cope and say it is
didn't the cofounders leave in protest of this game, during its making?
@3:28 if its a clone that makes it SO MUCH WORSE, like why not clone superman a billion times or make a billions rings for the goons, or make thousands of flashs.
the clone thing will make the lore 1000% worse then it is.
@@AngelOfNoMercy Yeah man, Clones just doesn't make sense, Its just the Dev try to Damage control, and the Shills try to Cope
I mean David Jaffe tries to protest the new god of war not sure it means much more than their opinion
8:12 nice animation work Rocksteady I didn’t know we had that kind of physics back then 😂
The only proof you need to why Suicide Squad isn't canon is the mere fact that Freeze suddenly became a woman and Nora is frozen again
Even if the justice league are clones, and they do end up coming back, I really doubt that that’s the case because Kevin Conroy is dead and I doubt that he made additional lines for add-on story after the main game
They could get Troy Baker to voice Batman in the next Arkham game. His Batman voice in the LEGO games sounded like Conroy to the point where you don't even notice Conroy replacing him in LEGO DC Supervillains.
@@SeanWheeler100Have him voice Batman and the Joker.
@@SeanWheeler100 Either that or Roger Craig Smith, the voice actor for Batman in Arkham Origins
@@juanaguilera804Smith would be my pick. I liked his angrier portrayal in Origins, but it would be nice to see him voice an older, more refined Batman
Or they could abandon ssktjl and make a sequel to arkham origins set a few months after blackgate and get roger craig smith to do the voice of batman. And this would also give us more info on what batman was doing between the years of origins and asylum
Harley in SS seems like a carbon copy of Margot Robbie.
I like Margot, but Arkham Harley seemed original. I know she’s basically a continuation of BTAS Harley and I love BTAS so that’s amazing in itself. Why copy Margot’s Harley when the Arkham Haley was better than Margot’s? And, there’s an over saturation of Harley in pop culture atm. It’s tiring seeing Harley all over the place when they’re so many other rouges that they could’ve used. I love Harley, but with the overwhelming amount of her in pop culture and other media it’s really tiring.
They could’ve made a BatWoman game set after AK. You hear Kate on a VM in Bruce’s office. They could’ve just written a game where she takes on the Mantle of The Bat. You could’ve said that she was being trained and that stopped on Halloween after Bruce got unmasked. She goes to the Batcave where she find Bruce and Alfred, and Bruce unveils a suit he made her and she goes out into the night. Bruce, Alfred and Barbra would be on comms helping her throughout her journey.
For a villain you could have Deathstroke. He comes back to Gotham to end the entire Batfamily and Kate, along with Dick, Tim and Jason fight him. He’s not the Deathstroke we see in AK but a more ruthless version of him from AO. And it takes everyone to beat him. And at the very end, Bruce puts the Cowl back on one last time to take down Deathstroke because he’s nearly killed the entire Batfamily.
That would’ve been better than the 70$ pos we got.
The reason SS harley is like Margot is because the devs didnt care about their own universe character and wanted to appeal to casual fans thats why she is like that same with deadshot
Keep up the great work bro
And it feels weird how the series turned from being dark and kinda horror to being comedic
calling bane a big dumb brute is a crime
Maybe not in origins but definitely in asylum
He become one after Origins
@@raym764 from the TN1
Dude was the first and probably only person (forgot any other person who might figured it out) to figure out batmans identity but yeah they severely nerfed him atleast hes spared from this garbage
Fans (and me) trying to cope with the fact justice league lost to the suicide squad:
Also in Arkham Knight, Batman did this little but ever so slightly little tiny thing after the game ended… NIGHTFALL PROTOCOL
It is Knightfall protocol, he did not die. He continued being Batman, but it drove him to a darker path. If you read some comics you would know how this stuff all played out.
@@willtheiamnightfall is a fake out because in a post credit scene I think he used fear toxin to scare someone I can’t remember exactly
@@willtheiam 🤦♂️You don’t get the point of knight at all do you. It is meant to be how Batman himself is gone. Again Batman states that Gotham needs a new saver. Bruce doesn’t die in Knight dude. He fakes his death, then he goes and uses fear toxin. The manor blowing up is just for shock and to fake his death.
That is literally what I said how is Batman in kill the justice league when he “dies”
I know
I honestly feel like arkham verse robin alone would be able to take down the squad. Tim would have a plan from the get go to neutralize all of them.
The assault on Arkham movie even has the exact same.Batman logo as all three games at the very beginning of the movie.
2:57- I'm surprised Tara Strong hasn't received death threats for this. I mean, gamers hounded the actress from Last of Us Part II or whatever, because her character killed off someone beloved, and I heard Peter Blomquist received some hate over Micah Bell's actions in RDR2.
Beautiful video
Suicide Squad: Kill the Arkhamverse
Sometimes even if the studio who made the project said something like this "canon" thing it still should be believable , it should make sense , if it didn't make sense then it simply not true , great video pal , keep going
Willing to bet that in a future DLC we'll see the actual Arkham-verse and it's revealed that we've been following a parallel universe the whole time. This would allow it to be "canon" because then every inconsistency & issue that fans have would be invalidated.
As you mentioned, almost every attempt at explaining inconsistencies has been a round-about way like the original Deadshot being from another universe instead of something simple like "I picked up the mantel after the previous guy died" meanwhile there are plenty of things that aren't addressed at all (like Harley & Ivy being a romantic thing when at most they were friends based on the very limited amount of scenes together)
This leaves the door open for them to flip it around and say "See! It's not inconsistent because it was a different version the whole time!"
The thing though is that unless this was planned from the beginning, we might not get any kind of reveal like that. It could very well just be bad writing which then means there's a chance for them to just ignore all the complaints because attempting to retcon would be "validating the haters"
I didn't play the game (as looter-shooters aren't my thing) but I did watch a full let's play and I agree that most of the game's problems stem from "it's canon to the Arkham games" there's a lot of good moments and character banter, so many inconsistencies would be fixed if this was just "an else world story" especially since that's used as the foundation for the story. I was surprised at how early the multiverse was introduced because I thought that was going to be an endgame plot twist to justify more content but no it's pretty integral to the story.
It's obvious that this game was heavily influenced by the 2016 movie (especially since the game has been in development for so long) so various things with the characters were either inspired by or possibly mandated by higher-ups but there is a way to make it "canon" to the Arkham-verse.
If I am right about this, then it should've been part of the marketing. I mean practically everyone pointed out that Deadshot was a different guy, being upfront about it being a multiverse story would've saved a lot of frustration & confusion.
FINALLY!! Thank you! Some of these points you listed were things I've been telling others. Seriously, THANK YOU
Those Assault On Arkham “continuity errors” are so dumb because they can easily be explained..
First one already explains how it is wrong
Second one is an artistic direction and could be interpreted as the asylum still in early stages thus doesn’t have that many rules
Third one doesn’t matter because scarecrow has most likely been wearing the glasgow smile before arkham asylum
Last one could be explained with the penguin having an injury on his hand on one of his daily fish eating routine
So yeah the movie is canon.
11:09 didn’t two-face die in that movie also?
You are a LEGEND dude
The suicide squad game is just Harley playing with action figures in her cell. Non of it happened.
I personally like to believe that SSKTJL is set in an alternate timeline where the Knightfall protocol never happened despite Bruce being unmasked, which gives an explanation to why he's still Batman but with Fear Toxin added to his arsenal, which also is my way of explaining the bullshit with Deadshot.
If Miles was killed like Robin everyone would be crying racism.
Being a heavy batman fan, this hurts to see this character get genuinly disrespected.
The character has been disrespected since it's been adopted even in comic books he has been out of character and disrespected multiple already, people think just because Batman has the most content the fans are enjoying it but they Don't know literally 99.9% of those are inaccurate and disrespectful ones, even The Dark Knight trilogy is not a good adaptation, Almost all characters are accurate except Batman itself, ofcourse there are few others as well Talla Al Ghul, Ra's Al Ghul Victor Zsasz, and little bit of Bane but mostly he's accurate though, and some others but that's the point Gordon, alfred, joker were a lot accurate but The Batman Character has been inaccurate, destroyed, ruined made way less cool and stupid , so many years and still elements of Batman Fear with signal and Loneliness has been brought now even though it's been from the start in the comic Books and that also not adopted accurately either., at this point it feel like even very positively that after atleast 900000 years we will get 1% accurate Batman, and that also would be a miracle even though it's wishful positive thinking. Sorry if you find this troublesome I just wanted let out a I fell after getting Inaccurate adaptations of The Batman so many infinite times already.
Also King Shark already existed in the Arkham Verse, if you check Character Bios in Asylum and the evidence lockup in Knight you will see the human version of the character, meaning he isn’t even a fucking shark in the Arkham Verse lmao.
Also some body parts in the Morgue in Asylum
@@eur0be4t3r nahhh u guys are thinking of the great white shark, king shark was never mentioned in that verse beyond the assault on arkham movie
Some of Arkham asylum bios were retconned like prof strange and jack rhyder ,so that’s not new
@@2ndspringtube708 didn’t know that.
If the fans doesn’t call it canon even if the devs saying it’s cannon means the game suck so hard it’s an insult mentioning it
Maybe it’s a “continuation,” because Arkham’s Deadshot traveled to the other universe, but that’s just needlessly complex.
The next game better be Red Hood: kill the suicide squad.
IT IS NOT CANNON
This game is just a cynical piece of crap, a clear example of a monetary pursuit above all. It shafts any good will it had with the fans by following trends and forcing it in and breaking existing lore, making a product that is a straight abomination. Let's make Harley into Margot Robbie rip off, add the lesbo tension she had with Poison Ivy from the popular adult series, let's make Deadshot black, because of Will Smith, let's put it into Arkhamverse, because Arkham games are popular and recognizable. Let's make this single player into always-online looter shooter, let's make it into a Multiverse and self referential sarcastic humor, because of MCU, let's bring back Joker, because he's a fan favorite, let's introduce gender swapped Mr.( Ms.) Freeze, so it would appeal to a progressive crowd, etc, etc, etc... It just stinks of corporate circlejerking. Ughh, pisses me off...
Not sure I could have put this any better myself …
Well said
While I will never personally accept the atrocity called "Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice League" as canon, you are reaching a bit here... first off "taking down/out" Killer Moth doesn't necessarily mean "kill" him, and even if you do take that as confirmation that he's canonically dead, Waller's "FIND me Killer Moth" doesn't confirm that he's alive again. It may be out of character for Waller, but she may not be aware or 100% convinced that he's dead if he actually is.
Secondly, "Batman would never lose to these guys" also doesn't mean that this isn't canon, as Luke Skywalker, the guy who was the only person in the galaxy to believe in the good within mass murderer Darth Vader and risked everything on that belief, would never even consider for a split-second to murder his nephew and best friend's son in his sleep because of a bad feeling of vaguely-defined darkness, much less to abandon the galaxy and his sister to die on a desolate planet, and yet the Sequels are official canon. Us wanting consistent and good writing for the characters we love doesn't decanonize the garbage these people vomit onto the screen to push their agenda. Based on how ALL of the heroes, save for maybe Diana, are written, I wouldn't consider them canon to ANY previously established, popular DC plotline, least of all Arkham. I don't even agree with your statement that it would've been acceptable if it hadn't been connected to the Arkhamverse. And even still, none of that makes it not canon.
Your next point is just bizarre if you think about it. You basically say "if we take this audio recording, which cements this game as part of the Arkhamverse canonically, at face value, then it proves that this game isn't part of the Arkhamverse canonically". Think about it. Deadshot says something that tries to explain away one of the major giveaways that we're in a different franchise, his skin-color, by alluding to the multiverse, basically saying "yes, I'm black and should be white, but it makes sense and we're thus in the Arkhamverse after all" and you take that as evidence that we're not in the Arkhamverse. If you acknowledge the recording to use it for your argumentation, you acknowledge the narrative that we, in fact, are in the same universe. Once again, it just boils down to bad writing and Sweet Baby Inc. ruining yet another franchise, not to the fact that we're in a different world.
Your further argumentation is much of the same: "Harley is too strong", "Batman is too weak", "Scaling makes no sense", etc. - again, all bad writing. You basically prove that point with a throwaway line, when you say that the Flash has made a fool out of Boomerang countless times WITHIN THIS GAME'S OWN CANON and yet he's a laughable boss fight that makes no sense IN THIS VERY GAME. How does it make sense that the Flash is too fast to be hit by bullets, so to defeat him you have to first HIT HIM with a special BULLET? It's bad writing.
It's also very ironic how you gloss over the fact that Assault on Arkham has multiple loose points and continuity issues that qualify it as non-canon, while you do exactly the same thing for Suicide Squad with this video. You point out that irony, but you ironically don't see the actual irony. 😅
"If people are willing to just uncanonize an entire movie, that was said to be canon, simply based on a couple [of] continuity errors, [...]"
"If Knerd is willing to just uncanonize an entire game, that was said to be canon, simply based on a couple [of] continuity errors, [...]"
Both have inconsitencies and thus (more or less) bad writing. The main difference between the two is that Assault on Arkham is handled much more competently, but based on the continuity errors, even if the one's are more "significant" than the other's, neither should be canon, yet both officially are.
Lastly, the game insulting legacy characters is just one more item on the list that can be explained by bad writers and a massive agenda. Sweet Baby Inc. is one part of that equation, but it would be lazy to just blame it all on them. The folks at Rocksteady must've been willing to put this bullshit on the screen, and SBI was probably welcomed with open arms, but the result is the same: Let the past die. Kill it if you have to. The Flash, Green Lantern, Batman, Luthor... everyone got disrespected in major ways, Boomerang was obvious comic relief, Deadshot was a more serious and (anti-)heroic character, so he is now black, Diana may be white and a hero, but she's at least female, so her death is treated as something tragic, even though the Flash was literally pissed on, despite literally saving the Suicide Squad's lives at multiple points. None of that, sadly, makes the game not official canon, and there are many more examples of this.
I already mentioned the Star Wars sequels and how they shouldn't be canon, but there's also The Last of Us Part II, where the problem is NOT that Joel dies or that his death was brutal, but how he got methodically dismantled as a character by the bad writing before it happens, and how every action and plotline from the previous game got recontextualized for the narrative of the shitty game to work. Or how Indiana Jones got a miserable old fool who literally wanted to die to make room for the much superior female HERo for most of the Dial of Destiny. Even the Mandalorian got side-lined and quasi-replaced in his own show in the third season. Not to mention Peter Parker, who gets put in his place, has to constantly apologize for exisitng and ultimately tells Miles that he's more than enough to do the job and should take over as Spider-Man (it's actually funny that you used the opposite as your example, as Miles isn't a straight white male). There are many, many examples of this, and we see it increasingly often in sequels, where, for example, a character who married and/or had a child at the end of the previous entry, starts the sequel off alone and it is implied (or outright said) that they are a bad husband and/or father, or they outright get replaced by a character who is more in line with the current-day politics. And while it is tempting to do what you do, and simply point out all the narrative dissonances and mistakes and proclaim that the latest entry isn't canon, that is rarely actually the case.
*Edit:* Should've finished the video before posting this. I find the "humor" of this game abysmal, the gameplay loop shallow as hell, and none of the characters likeable. The motivations make little to no sense, the background chatter is annoying as hell, the disrespect to all of the characters (including the Suicide Squad) is painful to watch, the ending is extremely anticlimatic, and the threat/promise of killing a dozen more Brainiacs in future DLC makes me cringe hard. Saying the game would be good or even just decent if the Arkham connection wasn't a thing is the one point I disagree with this video the hardest. It's garbage, and I wouldn't shed a tear if it spelled the end of the studio (in its current iteration - shame about what Rocksteady used to be).
Bro finally I thought I was the only person to realize it's an alternate universe because batman died in arkham knight also great video
Only that version of batman died, he really faked his death and starts using the fear toxin if u see the final cutscene it shows that
This is what happens when you hire consultation writers like Sweet Baby Inc to to shred your lore for internet popularity points. Ruins games.
LETS GOOOOO🔥🔥🔥🔥 NOT CANNON CONFIRMED 👍👍👍💯💯💯🔥🔥🔥
It’s just lazy writing
I considered playing this game until I heard about Batman’s death and how it was Arkham canon. How this is related to the coolest Batman games ever is baffling to me.
According to the report, Rocksteady was originally working on a new IP called Stones following the release of Batman: Arkham Knight, while WB Games Montreal (the studio behind Batman: Arkham Origins and Gotham Knights) was working on its own Suicide Squad game. Warner Bros., apparently eager to cash-in on the theatrical success of the 2016 Suicide Squad movie, cancelled those projects and began discussing a new Suicide Squad game with then-Rocksteady studio heads Jamie Walker and Sefton Hill. Walker and Hill apparently "saw it as a better opportunity than making something new from scratch" and were hopeful development would wrap in 2019 or 2020.