Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ก.ค. 2018
- Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione discuss the allegations of sexual abuse by Shambhala head Sakyong Mipham. Recorded at Tara Mandala, July 1, 2018.
My immeasurable gratitude to youtube for making these precious teachings available to all.
I'm listening to this one year and a half later, it holds true. I left Shambhala but still feel a bit sad about how much time and energy I spent there. I was a Vajrayana student in Shambhala so this whole situation was traumatic...if it wasn't for Pema's statement last week and your video...I don't know if I would recover that well. Thank you for the good advice: The dharma is yours.
NKT is worse
Thank you both for cutting through to the root problem. The inherent structure within Shambhala leads to abuse of position. The Buddha taught Each person is responsible for their own actions. We should not look for someone to “save us”. That is our own responsibility. The dharma is strong and endures. I truly appreciate a women’s insight.🙏🙏
I really like Tenzin Palmo. She comes across as such a genuine, authentic person.
She is. Delightfully so!
I think we need more women spiritual leaders across all faiths. Men cannot be trusted. Its that simple. There have been too many stories of guru's taking sexual advantage of often vulnerable female disciples. Who is the guru ultimately answerable to? No one, as they are venerated and put on a pedestal.As a man I often feel ashamed to belong to the male species. The suffering we cause is unforgivable.
As Tsultrim said, "The dharma is yours and no one can take it away. It's not the teacher's, it's yours. You'll be okay, you'll find another sangha and go on."
There are many great teachers and there are many alternatives. If it's not right, get out. Trust yourself; Trust your Buddha Nature; Trust your "Basic Goodness."
So glad to hear from these two women teachers. Very well stated and right on target!!
It’s just words. Doesn’t mean anything until there is action. TP is against action.
Very impressed with these two ladies and their speeches. Thank you for your openness
Thank you so much, Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione
Thank you for your words (even though it's five years later, still relevant) and your beautiful teaching presence on this earth! I hope to cross paths with you again. The last time was in Austrailia, 2019 & I had the good fortune to receive your perspective on my own situation with Guru, sangha tribulations.
The words of these wondrous women are a balm to the soul; they acknowledge the enormity of the appalling abuse of power, but also call for honesty for all involved, and point to a position that could allow healing to come from a horrendous situation.
I can't thank you enough, you two! ❤️ Thank you for existing!
💙 thank you for this recording.
I was is that room, while they spoke. It was difficult to understand them at the time, due to movement of folk, & reverberation within the room.
I looked forward to this video being replayed at some time, when I would be able to hear & understand.
Thank you. 💙
ladies, I love you so much. thank you for giving some words on this difficult situation.
I thought Guru Rinpoche said in the degenerate age to trust the teachings, not the teachers...
He may of said that but my understanding is that comes from a sutra attributed to Shakyamuni Buddha, not padmasambhava. It's called "the sutra of the four reliances":
Sanskrit:
“catvāri pratiśaraṇāni
tadyathā-arthapratiśaraṇatā na vyañjanapratiśaraṇatā
jñānapratiśaraṇatā na vijñānapratiśaraṇatā
nītārthapratiśaraṇatā na neyārthapratiśaraṇatā
dharmapratiśaraṇatā na pudgalapratiśaraṇatā ceti”
rough english translation:
The four reliances
Rely on the teachings, not the teacher.
Rely on the meaning, not [merely] the words.
Rely on the definitive meaning, not [merely] the provisional meaning.
Rely on wisdom, not on intellect.
Not only Guru Rinpoche. Four Reliances (catur-pratisharana) comes from the Sutras. It's O.K. to read the Sutras if your Nyingma
Trust the first witness.
I'd say don't trust a teacher who likes to harm his students. That is not "crazy wisdom." it is simply morally wrong. But for those who are against "dualism" nothing is morally wrong, and I consider that extremely dangerous and cultish.
I come to this late but the systemic problem is pervasive yet today, these two insightful and compassionate women offer hope and understanding and emphasize what is important for us to hold onto…thank you!
Oh my! The forcing of those inside shambhala to vow that they cannot have any other Gurus, goes against all the Mahasiddhas teachings. Even Marpa was sent by his 1st Guru Naropa to seek out Maitripa because Naropa knows in his clairvoyance that there's a karmic link between them and Marpa would benefit from Maitripa's teaching. HH Dalai Lama also stated that if the Guru wants to do crazy wisdom, then he has to be a real siddha, to drink urine and feaces as no difference from alcohol, and have total control of his internal energy and never to lose the Bodhicitta due to emission
Thank you so grateful for you both wise teachers being here in these times! I l almost feel we are at a shift where we need to remember to empower ourselves more through teachings, instead of leaning on the teachers and trust our inherent wisdom through intuition, swift action, and compassion.
Yes, thank you both. I really feel more hopeful after listening to you.
Best commentary I've heard. Thank you. Two take outs, protect ones boddhichitta, the dharma is ours, we own it, with or in this case without the teacher. Still not sure I'm up for any of this anymore in any context..
You definitely need to examine your teachers very closely before you accept them. Forbidding students to learn from other teachers is definitely a red flag.
Thank you for this video and teaching
"set some boundaries." At long last, boundaries for the all-powerful guru. He shouldn't be tolerated if he's abusing other living beings, whether human or non-human. If you see the Lama as the Buddha, you relinquish all discernment. You can no longer even understand whether cruelty is good or bad. This is a sick state of mind - our own judgment and discernment cannot be relinquished and absolute power should never be given to another human being. I don't believe there is such a thing as a perfect teacher. Everyone of them, past and present, has been human. To think and act otherwise, will ultimately lead to big regrets and unhappiness, unless you're totally brainwashed so effectively that you can never see outside of your artificial reality.
U r absolutely right. Considering there have been no Buddha after the Siddharth. His teaching should be propagated but guru system is poisonous.
If any dharma organisation asks you to not have any other teachers, it is a cult, and not genuine dharma. Sorry, that is my humble but very firm and simple conviction. The real masters from Tibet mostly had many teachers, among them were the totally non-sectarion Rimé masters Khyentse and Kongtrul who travelled all over Tibet getting teachings form masters of all schools. Why not be like them? My teachers have all said it is good to go and get teachings form different teachers, partly that's why i trust them to be genuine Dharma teachers. They even say beautiful things of other religions and advise to have a positive attitude towards them.
Thank you for speaking to this and addressing this with such clarity! I agree- a systemic problem.
I think the danger really is giving so much power to one guru. That's always dangerous and always leads to unhappiness. The guru demands that you accept everything and anything he does, no matter what. Nobody should promise such a thing.
THANL YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS TESTIMONY!!!!❤❤❤❤
Thank you.
Very simple: PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH. If these Lamas are so lusty, they should just get rid of their monastic vows, get a wife and become a lay practitioner. Even laymen can not go around abusing other women like that in our society. These Lamas or teachers should not sit on high thrones, enjoy undue respect and privileges, and preach other people to do things that they can not do it by themselves. It's a big hypocrisy. It will destroy the whole teachings of the Buddha!!
sakyong mipham is a married man, isn't he?
and sexual abuse is not about "lust" it is about power and abuse thereof
Inform yourself before judging you moron hahaha
This one does have a wife, and his father also had a wife. Adultery is not a meaningful word to these people.
They do have wives. And I don't know how those wives could stand the constant adultery.
I pray for compassion, patience and healing for those who endured the worst and also upon the error-driven ones who were caught up in the badness, help us mighty goodness to stay in the middle and not run into extremes either way, neither for men or for women, neither for old or for young, neither for the sky or the earth, but to remain kind to one another. Amen
A true Guru will never demand or ask for Guru devotion. nor is that needed in any way. the only guru devotion is to the voice inner Guru.
Thanks for this abbot pema. I am not part of the enlightenment society anymore. I moved on and kept my name tibetan Buddhist name just reluctant until I meet a pure monk if the order. However I had obstacles to remove I am completely a level five student. So you know my protection on the subject of delusion. I am a founder of BUMMA {know the walk to talk the talk} high performance for serious practitioners brand of clothing. It is my job to change the minds of leadership as a Blackman that has found solitude with myself because Dharma is my grandmaster in great scheme of things. I wish all beings to witness this profound brilliant glory. Chumpa Chogong aka Ramoes Gaston. Thank you for a valuable lesson.
With due respect I didn't hear any concern or interest about the victims' welfare and what their needs and feelings might be right now regarding the harm, pain and betrayal they've suffered not only form the Sakyong but from those who've enabled his behaviour. No teacher is absolutely pure and to be honest I think that's too high an expectation. What is reasonable to expect though is a clear code of moral conduct that supports trust and confidence in Dharma.
This whole talk addresses the issues and how to support each other and the victims.
Read the reports which were done with the victims' input and in both cases written by the victims.
Excellent comments and excellent advice. Makes you wonder why it is so difficult for male Tibetan Rinpoches to comment on the topic with the same clarity and wisdom...
Exactly!
If Sakyong steps down from his position, which he should, what will he do? Get a real job? It would do him some good to get a real job, see what life really is and get off his high horse of living like a feudal king, taking advantage of power.
Nah! They never get real jobs! They are not Buddhists! Buddhism is not about these deity men and women in silk robes. I had a Buddhist teacher who NEVER worked more than a part time job in College and he was a householder. He was relentless in his subtle humiliation of me and other students of his who had to work full time jobs and even suggested that perhaps we we're lucky enough to have a strong connection with the Dharma! Well I got ma Dharma here baby! We all have the same Buddha Nature so let's Rock This Party.
Yes, working at a gas station or packing shopping bags for minimal wage for a while would be great dharma teaching for Sakyong. Apparently, he is back teaching for Shambala at the request of some students.
@@wiredwithwalsh6282}
I disagree with blaming "the system" instead of the individuals who have knowingly caused harm. Using a phrase such as "the behavior of the teachers" is too euphemistic. Yes, may this be the beginning of healing. However I disagree that "purity" is the goal. No teachers are pure. In my opinion the hierarchy between student and teacher is also at the root of the problem.
How should it be then? ...enlighten us please
@Buddhist from South: Your reasoning seems quite faulty. I think it has to do with this idea that the teachings do not recognize "dualism" - the difference between good and evil - a difficult stumbling block and incorrect. It permits a teacher, taking advantage of such a philosophy, to get away with harming people and claiming he's bestowing a blessing when the truth should be obvious to anyone whose mind has not been totally corrupted and brainwashed.
Gracias
Having spiritual maturity and having mental wellness are not the same thing. Many spiritual leaders are very mentally ill.
Amazing heart advice.
I recommend everyone to read the Rigpa letter and the legal reviews and to read the documentation from the Sunshine Reports. They are more horrible than anything you can imagine. I strongly recommend legal action. These are crimes under the law. I would notify the State Attorney's office in Colorado and in France. The organizations should completely dissolve their present administrations in all positions, remove memberships and forbid all further contact. Then move into the future under the direction of the Karma Kargyu itself and have no teachers who are not ordained monks with completed training and many retreats under their belt. There should be no attendants who are not Tibetan monastics. No women around them. No children should ever be permitted in any supporting role. It is unbelievable and evil what these people have allowed to happen to themselves and their children for so long. They have enabled and psychologically manipulated people beyond belief! Why has no one stood up to them and gone to the police???
Wendy S. King - - I love what you wrote! You are a Buddhist who uses her brain? Heavens to Betsy! You are a rare commodity in Tibetan Buddhism and you are far more enlightened than these two Jazzy Gals in their Sunday silks on the high chairs. Listen to them talk about the "Vajrayana Level" and "at that high level of Vajrayana". Since when is Vajrayana it's own level? These people can't even spell their own names backwards, how can they begin to think they can talk about Vajrayana. So many of these Buddhist groups have been dangling the cosmic carrot of Vajrayana in the face of their followers for decades. Sick!
I wonder why nobody calls that rape enabler Pema Chodron out? She, apparently, hasn't used her head in decades. I wonder who managed to write all those books for her.
You are right, these Buddhists are criminals and should be subject to investigation and persecution.
Wendy! You are a ray of hope in the sea of Buddhist nonsense!!!! Why do so few Buddhists stand up? Why does vague posturing to poorly understood Buddhist ideas trump law, logic and reason?
I am particularly livid at Pema Chodron and Sogyal as I genuinely did like their teachings, but perhaps it was all just hypnosis.
@@wiredwithwalsh6282 We have all fallen prey to personal charisma, verbal manipulation, and pretty words. Now we have to grow up and build transparent institutions with organizations that will prevent any such thing.
Excellent analysis and advice from two wise women
Voices of sanity
Thank you blessed Jetsunma Tenzin-la 🕉🙏🕉
Aside from the institutional patriarchal/feudal problems of Tibetan Buddhism too many Westerners do not take enough time or care before formally entering the Vajrayana path. Choose your guru wisely. Observe a teacher for years first, decades if need be before committing to them. It is not a decision to be taken lightly or on a whim.
This type of fuckery happens in the east too. And some of the people abused were children
There is a wonderful Hindu story in India that you should all know: Once upon a time, there was a cat. This cat decided, for reasons of personal aggrandizement and easy living that he would become a sadhu. So he put on the ochre robe, decked himself out in malas small and large of all 16 types of rudraksha beads and carved skull beads, painted his forehead white with three stripes to represent the Triple Realm, and got himself a Shiva trident with various scarves and such hanging off it. And he let himself get skeletal and scruffy and looked to all observers like a very serious and experienced sadhu indeed! He then took up full lotus position near the altar of an ancient shrine that was usually buried in food offerings on a regular basis, and he waited. Sure enough, as soon as it got dark, the little mice came out to feed on the offerings, but when they saw Cat Maharaj, they were so frightened and scampered back and stayed hungry. The next night, they were also frightened, but Baba Cat said, " Om Namo Shivaya! Fear not, my little brothers and sisters, for I am a fully renounced sadhu with all the vows and practices. I have also renounced any eating of meat. You need not fear me at all, for my heart is full of gentleness and the love of God whom I serve. Om Namo Shivaya" So the little mice felt reassured and came to eat at their pleasure. By and by, over time, it happened that they scampered nearer and nearer to Baba Cat Sadhu until they regularly played about him as he sat in deep, deep meditation. They told themselves that they were so blessed to have such a great sadhu living near them, and they told themselves that they were blessed to play about him and even to touch his holy body, and they let their little children play around him and climb on him because so profound and holy was Cat Sadhu's meditation that he never even seemed to be disturbed at all! So confident did they become that one night, they never noticed he had placed an open bag across his lap. And as they played, he quickly and quietly popped mice one by one into the bag until it was bulging and full of desperate, kicking, little mice, nor did he heed their cries of anguish, " Oh Baba-ji, please don't hurt us, remember your vows to do no harm. Remember your vows to renounce eating meat. Remember your practice of compassion! Please, let us go!" But the Sadhu cat just pulled them out of the bag, one after another, crunch! munch, crunch! and feasted gloriously. "Om Namo Shivaya! You fools! Whenever did God do anything but make a cat just a cat! And a mouse, just a mouse for a cat! Why did you think that for you alone, a cat would not be a cat! Hah! Hah! Hah! You fools!" and Cat Sadhu Maharaj ate them all up entirely! Yum yum yum!~ and so it happened that even to this very day, mice always say, "Don't trust anyone to be other than what God made them!"
It's striking how extremely difficult Western Buddhist figureheads find it to put the victims and survivors of sexual abuse first, or exhort their audiences to do so. It's not even a struggle: it doesn't occur to them at all to frame the discussion of sexual abuse by Buddhist teachers this way. Decades of Buddhist practice, endlessly repeating the discourse of loving kindness, compassion and wisdom, has not rid them of the primitive instinct to put institutional interests first.
I've mentioned before that Buddhism is well on its way of becoming yet another 'religion for abusers', and this is exactly how that happens: when news about sexual abuse breaks, most everyone's natural tendency is to make the perpetrator, his or her entourage, and his or her institution the center of attention. And themselves, of course, putting the victims last. As a Buddhist, I find that completely unacceptable.
At least as striking is Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo's remark: 'Unless the teacher truly is at the level of absolute wisdom and compassion, they should not be given absolute power.'
With that, she dismisses centuries of hard won Western social and political philosophy out of hand. The very point of the understanding that 'power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely' is that no person at all should be given absolute power-not even (supposedly) fully enlightened modern day Buddhas. Clearly, this insight is beyond her ken.
Now, I don't expect Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo to be familiar with the Western history of ideas, for she submerged herself in Tibetan culture at an impressionable age, having had no thorough training in Western thought. To me such a remark demonstrates how alienated from her native culture and society Tenzin Palmo really is. To me, that's no way to live, but she's free to do so, of course.
However, her audience should realize that this one remark plays into the hands of the many who are willing to argue that a (supposedly) enlightened person cannot be held accountable for his or her actions: that is, into the hands of the likes of Sogyal Lakar, Sakyong Mipham, and Namkha Rinpoche.
In doing so, Tenzin Palmo does not address or redress the problem, she perpetuates it. Even now, she's held hostage by a medieval, feudal understanding of power, and thereby demonstrates that the abuse of power-of which sexual abuse is but one symptom-is indeed endemic to her modern day understanding of Tibetan Vajrayana.
Addressing sexual abuse this way, in complete disregard of victims' and survivors' traumas, is not merely dangerous, it is inappropriate and even tasteless.
This idea of "karma" - is very slippery indeed. It seems to be used to blame the victims - what they're experiencing is just their karma, and the guru, understanding that, is actually blessing them and removing the karma. I used to love the story of Milarepa and how his guru was able to cure him of bad karma in severe and extreme ways; no more. Now I think it's used as a dangerous model for excusing abuse. Of course Milarepa was an adept of the highest order in another age. This is not treatment that should be "bestowed" upon western disciples.
No I haven't but I'll look it up. Thank you very much for all your answers. I can't find your latest comment about not understanding what we're getting into with a guru from Asia. But I appreciate it and I'm satisfied with this answer. You referred to my mention of the story of Milarepa - a great story that becomes horrifying when applied to western disciples. I think you're correct about all this. Found Kumare on Amazon Prime.
I loved the movie called "The Chosen Child" or something like that - a documentary about the search for the reincarnation of a great lama. It's a beautiful film. But when they finally find the little boy - he must be taken away from his mother and all his family to go to a monastery for intensive training. It bothered me when I watched the movie, but I was so hypnotized by the beauty, the mystery, and the great story that it didn't fully register on my consciousness that I was viewing a very painful separation of a little boy from his mother. Now looking back on it, I'm not at all sure I can accept that as a westerner. And some people have said that the trauma little boys experience from being separated like that will cause them to become cruel to others later. I realize it's an ancient tradition, but again perhaps not workable for the western mind.
Found it on Amazon Prime. Thank you again.
@@alecrim888 No I probably don't understand it correctly. But I do know of gurus who tortured their disciples to remove bad karma. Doesn't seem right. And I'm not one to worship another human being, so there you have it. No wonder I don't understand. My belief is very simple: I try to live up to the Golden Rule, which has nothing to do with karma at all. It's just treating other people the way you yourself would like to be treated, and that is all. It's easy to understand but difficult to achieve every day.
Tenzin Palmo, who met him in 1962 while he was still at Oxford, did not become one of his consorts. She mentions that she refused his advances at the time because he had presented himself as "a pure monk". However, she said had she known Trungpa had begun having sexual relations with women at age thirteen, she would not have declined, considering that in the higher stages of Tibetan Buddhist tantra, sexual relations (especially with tertöns) are a means of enhancing spiritual insights. rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_in_Buddhism
I didn't tolerate any Buddhist teacher or organisation telling me I'd have to promise not to have any other teachers and if they did I'd move on
Amazing Lady Masters.
I think it was garchen rinpoche or khenpo munsel in the story lama told. Anyone know? A favourite story
It's not only about how are the victimised party acknowledged but how is the act done party acknowledged. Taking a non action to support the doers side is going to come out point some.
After 8 years in Shambhala when I was told I had to refer to The Sakyong and Your Majesty I left. Beat Pema out the door.
NO. Don't say this is systemic.
It is the individual desire for MONEY, SEX, and POWER. How very sad.
Ruth Belda I agree! There is a lot of Buddhist deflecting going on here! Shit, another Lama raped a bunch of women...hummm...bring up Trump! This ain’t Trump’s fault! Trump has nothing to do with this ever! Pema Chodron and others like her are to blame. Call out the real abusers. Sorry ladies I know people at the highest levels of Japanese Buddhism and there is no systemic abuse like this! In Japanese Buddhism everything is out in the open and there are relatively few scandals!
Stop being weak and call out the abusers by name.
It's systemic in the sense that it is widespread. It is not about any ONE or few abusers. That is what she meant by systemic. She was telling the truth....
No, it's not "the system" in general, it's patriarchal society in general, doesn't matter if it's a male company boss in hollywood or a male cleric. It's this deeply rooted attitude of men that women are there for their sexual gratification and men in positions can just take what they want to scratch that particular itch.
Like most of us when going through a supermarket with some attractive wares it's normal behaviour that we will only take what they paid for = is legaly ours. A lot of men don't have this attitude when it's about their sexual desire, to varying degrees, which starts with light molestation and undwanted lewd remarks, to using emotional pressure to "convince" an emotionally weak victim to agree and psychological manipulations.
A teen boy was also raped in Shambala. There are also women who engage in sexual abuse (Marion Zimmer Bradley, Asia Argento, etc)
Buddhist from South The boy doesnt find it funny nearly does Italy nor her former friends. but keep minimizing women sexual predation and claim you are on the Bodhissatvas path. I havent claimed the three jewels in years mostly because the Sangha is wacked
Buddhist from South MZB's 2 children accused her of sexual abuse (I have talked directly to her daughter Moira Greyland about it, she is a very candid woman). MZB's husband was a convicted pedophile and MZB defended him in court (the records speak for it themselves).
The sad thing it’s happen such things only in yinmpapa sakyapa and kagyoupa you will never hear such in the Gelugpa I really think they should clean up little bit
Deeper Intuition as Guru!
Good to see female teachers . It’s disturbing that rinpoche used their power and abuse the female students and put stains on Buddha teaching. It’s any practitioners to go to the source of teaching which Buddha himself
To address the issue as meditation practice on how the words do not harm us, the thought of them do not hurt us, etc. is to completely sweep the issue under the carpet. It is completely irresponsible. I didn't become a Buddhist to throw my brains out the door! Did you? Right now, we need to deal with the problems in a practical and legal way and set the meditative view aside! Children were sexually violated, vulnerable, hurting people were targeted and violated. Vast amounts of money were misused, properties were finagled out of their owners' hands. So to address the issue as a meditative practice is one thing, but it does NOT deal with the social repercussions of the problem. Nothing will stop them outside of legal action and in my opinion, legal action should be taken. These people who have pimped, raped, robbed, misrepresented and engaged in all kinds of horrible deeds with children and adults should be subject to the law and put in jail. We must make it clear for those who seek the true Dharma in the future that such organizations will not be tolerated, so that they and their families may enter trustworthy communities of practitioners safely and confidently. The shape of the future depends upon our responsible action now.
I wonder about letting this "guru" come back after he's been somehow repaired. I wouldn't place my complete trust in someone like that. The truth seems to be that he didn't ever qualify as a guru and I don't think anybody does. It's a mistake to give over your judgment, your faith, your loyalty, your complete self to another human being.
For me, it's the teaching, the pointing out that I bow to, the person doing that is just the vessel. When you are thirsty, it matters little if at all what the water is in, it's the water, not the cup that quenches thirst...
Thanks for these words of wisdom and compassion. I see that you add a link to the "report" which does contain allegations which I take very seriously. It also contains much manipulation and misinformation, and it does not give any perspective on when some of the events took place. Although I agree that this boil needs to be lanced it would be helpful not to forward one-sided misinformation. I recommend reading this if you want to know more: susanpiver.com/on-shambhala/
Project Sunshine is a site about nuclear fallout, does anyone know the real website.
Sagely comments. The problem is deep-seated -- it is the feudal Indo-Tibetan system. Compassion for all concerned is necessary, and like lancing a boil, the foul truth must out and those thus afflicted need fresh air and sunlight in order to heal. Above all (and this is my conclusion) there needs to be education. Buddhist teachers -- non-Tibetans in particular -- must spearhead the effort, as they are here. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
Non-Tibetans in particular? Why? Sounds a little bit racist to me. Western converts have had a huge part to play in these disgraces.
Yeah. All the more reason not to depend on entitled Dharma-daddies (or mommies), hiding behind robes and titles, to tell us how to solve our problems. Nor, for that matter, on presumptuous judgetarians quick to play the Racism Card or other shoot-from-the-hip, P.C. cards.
@Buddhist from South: I appreciate this comment.
The Tantric transmission was not originally embedded in hierarchy. It was a connection between student teacher, which is not exactly "hierarchy". Most Tibetan lineages derive from Indian masters who did not have many disciples. The notion that hierarchy and all the power-plays that tends to involve, must define the transmission, is historically unsupportable, and ill-suited to our times. For the Tantras and their practice to survive now, we just a few good good men and women with a few good students, not gurus setting up their petty kingdoms hither and thither. The old Indian Mahasiddhas would laugh at and lampoon us for our naive, organized-religionaire point of view! Ha Ha!
It's our mess. We have to clean it up, and clean it up well. In Tibet these problems were usually ignored, suppressed or otherwise swept under the rug. That's why we've inherited those problems -- the Tibetan bugs have crept out from under under the rug and created their own little harems and duchys here. So far be it from us to expect them to clean up a mess on our own ground, that we enabled (and I do mean "enabled") them to create. What is so racist about that? I call it taking responsibility for our own problems.
One should know when a teacher is making you face things you don’t want to face, which usually hurts in a way but one can have a sense of deeper healing opportunity and when something just doesn’t feel right. I know some people that blindly turn off their intelligence when it comes to Dharma matters and in a true sense that’s just not what Buddhism is about, quite the opposite.
They gave no advice to the questioners: the Staff at Shambhala Mountain Center who ate confused about how to host the Sakyong, and likely their jobs and the expected failure of that major center. As Rob Hoggendorn also points out, the victims of the abuse (direct victims) are also overlooked.
Our Sangha is in turmoil and I don’t doubt there are victims more traumatised by these allegations because the prospect of revisiting the trauma, and quite possibly with unreceptive circles of families and friends has heightened.
Their answer was as weak as the wills they long ago subjugated to the Lama! Why do all these people forget that the historical Buddha is called "The Lion of the Shakya Clan," not the scardy cat.
She fails to state what really matters......that when you follow somebody, you destroy them and yourself.
Damn these 2 ladies kickin troof
When karma ripens, no one is immune. When caught up in the ripened karma one is not in control of one's mind, the karma is. Remember, though, the mind is still stainless and that it is only the action of impermanent self by cause of ripened karma, which eventually - like all things of this dream-like state of life - passes.
Except this is the only life we'll ever have. Sorry to disappoint.
"Except this is the only life we'll ever have." This is the view of nihilism and was refuted by the Tathagata Shakyamuni Buddha himself
"and its gone into you." True to the matter 😉
What about the spiritual mother and father union in Vajrayana like Vajrasattva YabYum (father and mother), Samantrabadhra Yabyum. There's lack of spritual knowledge among students. It's because of that in ancient times only selected students are taught sacred teachings.
Edit : I don't know about others but don't make bad karma for yourself by criticising the true teacher Trungpa Rinpoche.
Sadly where there are people chances are these may just happened, you hear such incidences from every walks of life. Nothing to do with Buddhism, etcs. These perpetrators should be taken to maximum task so they will not have another chance to do harm again. But then lets come back to an old saying, you need two hands to clap so who is the actual one at fault?
#metooguru
Project Sunshine
I found Jesunma Tenzin Palmo's comments disingenuous. She said no to Trungpa Rinpoche and had no problem doing it. She even mentioned that if she knew he wasn't a virgin, she would have considered it. The Dalai Lama has already said, "Stick to your own religion." I'm sure he will say it more and more. Thanks everybody :(
Where are the Teachers who stand up for women - smart, educated, intelligent women!!! - and encourage them to say, "No thank you." instead of "oooh,....does this make me SPECIAL? I'm so happy to be in the 'Inner Circle'. Will you leave your wife for me? Make me a Princess?" That behavior used to be called something different - it was called being a tramp. Old fashioned term, eternal problem.
I'm so sorry not to live in an age where women are treated with respect, rather than encouraged to blame
others and calling themselves Victims. A child is a victim. An adult is a survivor.
Thanks for being one of the few who tell it like it is!
A polite politics in Buddhist dharma.
So those teaches were no Tulkus at all, safe with the allegationes against 17th Karmapa ( one of them) they are moved by craving power and sensual gratification in many cases, a real reincarnated lama is not moved by ego and personal gains or the 8 worldly concerns ; so differents than the forest tradition of Ajan Chah and people who practice ethics.
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Chogyam Trungpa, Mipham’s Father, founded Nalanda University. This is big tax-free business.
Money talks in all languages, cultures, religions, people!
Hang loose. Don’t give away your power!
Siddhatha never left his seat, he was tempted by the 5 daughters of Mara.
He was ALONE!
He awakened from the dream.
Feed your demons privately.
You don’t need an audience
Terrible..........Atropatos Safkas Pisgon Palpeltiah Duvdeviah Miton Taphtaphiah Hachereb Adrigon Charoite Kali Wali Mesukiel Aketeriel Mahakala Bala Bala Kalabhairava Haridra vau
TP thinks pity is compassion.
Pfft. Threw Jetsunma into the foray without an anchor. Nope. Tapped out
who declared him to be a reincarnation of the great Mipham? If you think you can find happiness in Samsara then you are not qualified to be a Lama
Sham Bhala
Bass
If the accusations against the Sakyong are true, he should be removed from his position. His father violated trust between female students and himself. This must stop now.
I am VERY unimpressed by these Bodhichitta stories in this context. I got ma Bodichitta, and I'm calling these addict pervy disgusting rapist teachers and their enablers out! This is not Buddhism baby, it's Devadata's delusion. My Buddhist Sutras tell me that we need to "repent" and until we do so these Bodhichitta Vows and Sammaya Vows mean NOTHING. Why can't Buddhists get mad and be relentless with these destroyers of the Dharma. Destroying that which is false through confrontation, public campaigns, protest, and legal actions is real Buddhist work. Buddhism ain't a little Tantric power cult ladies and gentlemen, its a way of life and it applies to all aspects of life.
Completely complicit in sustaining a culture of abuse. Both of them.
Theres real teachers who dont do this stuff just fyi lol
I was just introduced to Shambhala, went to the center to speak with them about this, and have decided to continue with my journey into the community and the path. I don't know if it is prideful or what, but learning about these allegations actually drew me to this community. There are many good things about this path, and many things I am uncomfortable with - very much including the sexual misconduct of Mipham Rinpoche and the open knowledge of Trungpa Rinpoche's alcohol use and student lovers. It bothers me that at high levels, knowing the entire lineage has had troubles with senusal discipline, that one has to look at the teacher as the buddha. That is, in my view, very much against the Dharma. Trungpa Rinpoche may have been close to enlightenment, but he was not there, and I kinda think he went crazy instead of enlightened. And I kinda think that happened because the Vinaya wasn't there for him. But I digress... in truth, this is EVERYWHERE. If there is a community that can figure out a way to heal and come together to support everyone with compassion and kindness, it is a community that believes in the inherent goodness of people and seeks to have an enlightened society. But as with any human endeavour, there are flaws in this path (and all paths) that need to be consistently checked and scrutinized according to the Dharma. I may have some pride that I can make a difference in this community, but I have a deep sense of being compelled to this community. Keeping silent in the sangha until I get my footing on the teachings, but I will raise my concerns as they come and only hope to meet with contemplation and questioning in return instead of blind faith and blind trust in a line of gurus that may have incredible wisdom but lack the integration.
Don't! Stay away! Others have been sucked into that whirlpool of psychological manipulation. You will be too. It is evil, it is NOT Dharma. Everything they teach is twisted. Stay away! I can't warn you strongly enough. Fifty years speaking here. Please stay safe. Go practice with a Zen group instead.
one with lipstick and long hair and manicured nails, other is shaven headed and openfaced. Yet they are same. Thats spirit of Buddhism
I can understand your confusion. If it helps, Lama Tsultrim is married, not a nun; hence the make-up. She is wearing the robes of a lay practitioner. Tenzin Palmo is a monastic, so shaved head, etc.
@@basiasolarz4327 i am not confused, you are.
Despite most of the people who are taking their stand against the Sakyong and are completely convinced on the authenticity of all the accusations, I would like to take a different stance. If the allegations are indeed true, then i pray for the healing of the victims and anything it takes to help them regain their life back. However, i choose not to accept the allegations just yet, and wait for when the investigations have been completed.
If we can briefly step away from the main focus of all this; namely the accusations against the Sakyong, whether true or untrue, we begin to see the dynamics of a power struggle mainly between self made teachers fighting for growing acceptance and influence over the traditional method of recognizing Tulkus and so forth.
Firstly in this video, I doubt whether the question written on the piece of paper was indeed anonymous, or placed there with advance knowledge.
It sets the perfect context in order to touch this topic on Shambhala. With all due respect to these 2 female buddhist teachers, it appears as they had prior knowledge of this question being placed on their table, since their initial reaction is kind of "Oh, here we go again," and "This question is for you". I've seen similar introductions from Jimmy Kimmel or Ellen Degeneres.
Secondly, Lama Tsultrim seems to know great details of Project Sunshine and all other details, so it either seems like a coincidence for this question to pop up, or a means to publicly address their opinion.
Finally, it is utmost important to treat all allegations and opinions with patience and proper investigation. It seems to me, as though most of the people are in a rush to destroy the Sakyong's image. Yes, women's lives and rights matter to the utmost, however, destroying someone's image because we are all quick to judge and determine by ourselves, raises suspicions on what is the main agenda.
Lastly, Ive seen most people using the recent allegations as the perfect and timely, opportunity and platform to attack Shambhala and the Sakyong. The evident bias from these 2 female teachers against the Sakyong and their confidence in the authenticity of the allegations and demeaning of the Sakyong is misleading. And their ability to sugar coat their "advices" with "always keep the bodhicitta" is worrying and dangerous, almost like wolf in a sheeps disguise. I guesse I will be the first one to ever critise these 2 teachers, however, after seeing how they push their political agenda in this talk, I have been forced to share my view.
Is it too much when i ask, that everyone deserves a fair trial? Or we being dragged in this "witch hunt", in the ship of justice and women's rights?
A compassionate woman with a great heart can heal and lead the world. However, a woman with ill intentions, can cause far more destruction.
The question is, is Mipham even technically capable of giving initiation. He never had much formal training and probably hardly any serious retreat time. If not, he can't transmit and therefor no samaya was ever established. In that case all those vows are null and void anyway.
By the way, Mipham Rinpoche (the original) stated that people should not find his reincarnation after his death. So why was this guy even declared to be a Mipham incarnation. By the lama who also declared the narcissistic martial arts fraud Stephen Seagal a tulku by the way.
The first thing here that needs to happen is that a qualified lama assesses if these transmissions were legit or bogus.
I have tried to read one of his books, the one about meditation and running training and it was rambling nonsense with zero dharma knowledge in it.
More sexual abuse claims in the Vajrayana? Yaaaaawnn.
Dude. Really? People are hurting. People have been harmed. Some respect for them here, please.
"Hold the heart of Bodhicitta in all of this."
I would act surprised except your name is Italian for "pussy". And everyone knows Italians are into cat-calls
I am struck listening to this three years later by the views expressed both in the comments by these two very powerful women as well as the comments below. There was an immediate rush to assume what was true and real. As Lama Tsultrim shares, this was one or two days after the Project Sunshine report was published. Since then, there have been many additional accusations and also much exoneration, yet without knowing the facts and the full situation Lama Tsultrim called for the Sakyong to "enter treatment." Subsequently, the workplace investigator found that of the accusations reported, one of them never happened, one of them the "victim" would not cooperate in her investigation, and only one was credible.
I am disappointed to see that one day following the report, there was an assumption here of guilt and of some kind of pathological problem. Assumptions of guilt are not a western value. Furthermore, there are misstatements about the Shambhala Vajrayana path (no one is told they cannot have other teachers), there is no reflection on how we as practitioners can take responsibility for our ability to say yes, and to say no, and there was no reflection on the culture of sexual freedom created by the previous generation of Shambhalians (aka Dharmadatu) which encouraged the adoption of the more open sexual mores of Tibetan culture.
The practice of vajrayana buddhism is intended to both make our minds more flexible, and nuanced, and also to take personal responsibility for our paths and how we relate to the vajra master. Sexual relationships with our gurus can bring with them tremendous blessings. When engaged for the wrong reasons, as with any interaction with the guru, it can burn us. We must learn to take responsibility for ourselves on our paths. We must go deeper into our understanding of why things in vajrayana are the way they are, and to suspend for a while our view that our western culture is right.
If you entered the "Scorpion Seal" path, you could not study with other teachers the explanation being the purported profundity and practice requirements it entailed.
Sexual relations between teachers and students may have a historical basis in tantra but such behaviour took place within a specific culture and context. I think we can agree that this no longer translates well into our Western culture and has resulted in tremendous harm and pain for those involved. We also need to acknowledge that, by his own admission, the Sakyong committed these harmful acts while seriously inebriated. I believe that he, and the whole community, would have benefitted greatly had he entered into treatment for alcohol addiction among other things, followed by a Truth & Reconciliation process to heal everyone - especially the victims who were so greatly harmed. It was profoundly disappointing that he did not follow this path. He has a traumatic history himself - he needed healing, too, I expect -- and his unresolved trauma resulted in addiction and abuse of others.
Instead, he has relocated to Nepal and will now center his Sakyong Lineage community there and has recently asked that group of followers to help him build a family home there.
In the meantime, a community is left behind and is indeed trying to go on with the dharma in their hearts.
She is overstepping her bounds by saying that he should step down, and offering an ill-informed solution in saying that people can simply find another sangha.
"There's a special place in hell for women who don't support other women" might be applicable here
By the way can someone explain in details like who gave this two Lady that title, no hard feeling but since they are wearing nun dress so I want to know plus please stop using Dalai Lama name when explaining about this stupid lamas
Good question. This organization bestows all kinds of titles and is a complex hierarchy. They also wear costumes and silly hats, and give people awards and pins, along with Tibetan names. It's very much like the Catholic Church with its fancy priesthood hierarchy.
Dear Joan and Tsering, to answer your questions: Venerable Tenzin Palmo is a fully ordained Buddhist nun and the author of "Cave In The Snow", which tells the story of her life and experience. She is a fully ordained nun in the Drukpa Kargyu school of Tibetan Buddhism, and wears the robes of a Tibetan Buddhist nun. She is the reincarnation of a previous geshe assistant to the Kamtrul Rimpoche, head of the Drukpa Kargyu. She is also the founding mother of two convents of nuns in India who engage in full study and practice equal to that of monks, a complete change and reworking of the traditional nun's monasteries in Tibet. In addition to the several books she has written, she speaks and tours and leads retreats around the world. She has sixty years of experience working with Tibetans and Tibetan Buddhist practice and is one of the best we have got. As a fully ordained nun, Venerable Palmo does not wear funny hats. Tsultrim Allione is a former nun and student in the Nyingma tradition who has founded a Buddhist center in the western US. Ms. Allione has about sixty years also of training and practice under her belt and is active in women's issues in the Dharma community. She has also authored many books on practice. She has been recognized as the reincarnation emanation of a great Tibetan female yogini. Ms. Allione is a wife and mother and a lay practitioner. She wears the shawl of a Nyingma lay practitioner living in vows. She does get to wear funny hats when performing the ceremonial roles of her lineage. She also teaches and leads retreats around the world. I hope that answers your questions. We should honor and respect them. They are all we've got! And they have both gone thru great difficulty in their lives to support the Dharma. Hope I got the info right. 'Scuse me if I'm not exactly accurate. Both women have been authorized by their lineages to teach and are respected worldwide. Both are scholars and yoginis in their own right with years and years of practice experience and teaching experience. Besides that, both of them are wonderful! They are both tough, experienced, insightful. For myself, their opinions are worth listening to and thinking about.
@@28105wsking fair explanation but i dont honor someone blindly
@@tseringsonam7173
You are probably from Gelupa, thats why you don't know them both.
Two old ladies...... judt go do your retreat and stop indulging in the "ego"
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Theres real teachers who dont do this stuff just fyi lol
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