Update: We're screwed.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2024
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I am more and more adopting a "let me know when it hits retail" approach.
Honestly this is a lot healthier for everyone involved
The reality with crowdfunding is that it encourages ponzi scheme-style behavior by creators who run out of money but don’t want to take a job in another field while they finish their campaign. Their “dream” is to be a game creator - and they’ll risk other people’s money and operate with zero integrity in the effort to make their dream happen. The whole model is bad. Creators should have to sign a legally binding contract that they will deliver, and NO platform should allow creators to start a new project until their previous project has been 100% fulfilled.
Excellent summary of the situation.
Afaik Kickstarter has/had such a rule. But since they get 10% of all those sweet millions without taking any risk, I think they "forgot" about it
@@jeremyfrost3127 people will learn were not to spend there money if this happens enough times
I don't think you're doing yourself any favors by having a minute of "coming up in this video" cold-open material.
I think it gives a good sense of the type of conversation I'm having. I included it because it's a long video without easy timestamps. This let's you get a sense quickly and not 20 minutes into it.
Why didn't you find it helpful?
@@TheKingofAverageI gathered the topic from the non-click bait title. Thus I skipped the “coming up section.” I can figure out within the first 1-2 minutes of the video itself if I’m interested in sticking around.
Just my 2 cents…
No worries :) I hope the video was worthwhile for you regardless I appreciate the feedback
I found the 'coming up' section jarring, because I didn't expect the tone and it came with out alot of context as someone who hasn't backed MG. Once the conversation started proper I got it.
I said it at the time but it was our wave two ransoms that paid for the shipping of 6 Siege, Darkest Dungeon was their biggest campaign and so there were more customers to milk so they could ship their other games.
100%
Yep
Next in line is/was Rise of the Necromancers... but alas, it is such a small campaign! How much money can they raise there? Or should they ask for five times the pledge amount so they can cover DD and the remaining six Siege pledges (those that paid their ransom)? It is the end of the road for Mythic Games and for Pascal-the drifter-known as Leo.
They effectively ran Ponzi like schemes in two layers.
Ponzi like scheme on the campaigns and then on the ransoms!
I dont see how this whole situation isnt just seen as fraud and they face a legal consequence for all that they've put backers through. Its absolutely ridiculous that they can get away with it.
It is fraud, if you can prove their intent that they took money without any plan to use it for what they say they’ll use it for, ie using funds taken for one campaign to finish another. However, they will hide behind the legalize of saying it’s not a preorder system, and that you are only funding the possibility of getting a game, in order to prevent discovery. It really takes the right lawyer, but I think where they are most vulnerable is where they have taken money for pledge manager services like shipping and handling.
@Kyle7565 I'm no lawyer, but it feels like the use of the word "contribution" to ask for more money outside of the campaign might have been legal maneuvering to protect themselves. Just speculation, but if that's true, it would show that they were aware that the contributions would not cover the necessary costs to complete DD fulfillment. It's probably hard to prove, but I'll never give another company a "contribution" ever again.
@@iansharp1543 doesn't work in europe. In europe it is considered a preorder.
It depends a lot on the country. In France, and probably all the EU, we paid for VAT and shipping and by our laws, that turns the KS from an investment to a preorder.
Maybe it is not the case in thu US, Australia or anywhere else, but legaly speaking, EU customers did place a preorder.
@Kyle7565 the problem is they specifically stated certain things to everyone then went back on that right away. Like the "contributions" that they specifically stated you wouldn't have to pay twice. Then it was "pay us AGAIN or you won't get what you already paid for that we specifically said you wouldn't have to do again." That is 100% fraud. Theft at the VERY least. There is zero possibility that none of what they did was illegal. It's just not possible.
At this point, Mythic Games has dug their grave and to top it off, it's on quicksand. How a company that use to make great games just fall out of the face of the earth is beyond real. Bad communication, worst marketing, and failed promises which is turning in negligence, theft, and fraud: these are the ways to send your company to oblivion. And to add more salt into the wound, MG WANTED MORE ???? No thanks.
Often people behind these companies are board game fans but they lack business acumen. Probably costs kept increasing and they couldn't negotiate better prices. Bad estimations led them to have to start asking for more.
More likely is delays in designing the game. Increased workforce cost because of more time and delays is a money pit. Which means the didn't not provision for this risk. Which means poor risk management.
As much as I understand your anger at them because of this, they weren't the only ones, and were far from the worst. Holy Grail Games were the worst. Even Awakened Realms needed more money for some of their projects, but offered a small expansion to pay for it. Also you can't forget Covid, if it never happened Mythic wouldn't have fallen at all because all the shipping prices would have been within their ability to pay for, with just them offering new campaigns.
One full minute of "coming up.." that is really too much. I like your videos and watch them with pleasure, but I hope this will not be the new format!
Agreed
Second that
I skip coming ups and have no idea why people do them. There’s some podcasters that do coming ups?? Why!?… so annoying!
timestamps would negate the need for "coming up" intros. i get that adding them is more work, and i don't know how monetization works, but i tend to watch more of a video if it has timestamps.
I dislike this channel more with every video
I'm still so upset over "6 - Siege". I paid them $405 (to get everything including add-ons) and they asked the ransom fee of around $250 and I said they were insane and asked for a refund. I probably will never see it. I still stand by the fact that no matter how great that game looked...it's not worth $650. I don't respect how they handled it and I refuse to stoop to paying an extortion fee on principle. When I told them this in the e-mail asking for a refund, they suggested I get downgraded in tier and still get my game. Sounds great until I look up the name they told me of the tier I'd downgrade to: THE BOTTOM $50 TIER! They seriously thought I'd be okay with getting the base game box for $405. Really? Disgusting. (This is ignoring how much of an upsetting rollercoaster the campaign was with things like allowing the *general public* to vote on what the skins are going to be.)
I'm so sad I didn't know they were already mishandling other project(s). I wouldn't have taken the chance. It's really depressing because I really was SO VERY excited to get a R6S board game that really fit how the video game works. My best friend and I would've had some great games with it.
Fully agree with you on how they just need to communicate. It's so disrespectful. So true talking about how we're forgiving when the company communicates but takes a couple extra years to get the product to you.
(I'm not turned away from crowdfunding because of this but it's really disappointing when a company sinks this low.)
Board games will become like video game companies if people don’t call it out. An industry paid to pretend they are journalists to prop up games, get free hand outs, and ignore anti consumer practices. Meanwhile the industry grows and takes more and more short cuts, and nickel and dime customers.
Isn't it strange how 'Flying Frog Games' are the exception to this. Lengthy no updates, we know the delivery will be two yrs late, yet we back them, knowing they will deliver.
Yep. And kingdom Death.
I do hate their communication, but yes haha
I made the mistake of ordering 6S via the webstore back in June.
After 1.5 months of nothing I put in a chargeback with my bank.
I don't anticipate Mythic blocking it.
Last I checked it sounded like they're down to a 2 man operation and one of them is in ill health.
Man that's wild. You'd have thought the webstore would be fine
@@TheKingofAverage turns out not :-/
@@TheKingofAverageI did the same. I actually placed a smaller order (core and 2 expansion packs) then they had a sale. I emailed them to cancel the initial order and placed an all in order. The initial order was still sent to me and then they refunded it. After numerous emails and no response on the remainder of items ordered over 2 months, I initiated a chargeback on my credit card.
Wow, I was considering ordering on the website too
@@HornedTurtle1212 don't!
I agree! I'll do my part. As a superbacker with over 100 projects backed, I'm completely done with crowdfunding.
Man that sucks 😕
I, like many others here have dramatically reduced my crowdfunding following the Mythic fiasco. I was very lucky in that I had a personal rule when I stayed crowdfunding that I wouldn't back more than 2 games from a single company that were outstanding, which means Mythic was the only company to get me with DD and Hel. I'm waiting for retail more often than not nowadays, and have blacklisted several companies that did deliver, but had garbage communication. It should not be difficult to post a quick progress report, even in windows where little is changing. Communication is absolutely key.
I started backing things on KS very early into it's life, and I live by the motto of never backing something for more than I can afford to lose.
@@grendl74 Yes! This always!
I’ve actually started only backing with late pledges when it looks like shipping is about to take place. And more companies are taking notice of this and not having penalties in costs this way. I might miss out on early backer discounts (day 1 stuff), but typically I don’t care about the extras and frills. It’s made things easier for me to feel confident I’m getting the goods.
The only first day backs I’ve had over the last 2-3 years is Frosthaven, Arydia, and upcoming Vrahode. Why? The first 2 have a track record of a company and developer communicating. The last is the same, but ahead of time building up community trust.
i'm less pissed off about not getting the DD expansions than i am about having to pay for "shipping" three times. if they weren't able to deliver, at least that would have been honest. CLEARLY, the extra "shipping" charges went somewhere else, which is tantamount to fraud, imo. living in america, i doubt i have any recourse to recoup those "shipping" charges, but be damn sure i am going to call my CC company and try.
Leo should never work in this industry again. for all his alleged best intentions, his word is trash.
He won't work in this industry again, of course, that's kind of unimaginable, but they are still alive, keep sending stupid emails and such, so my hope is that Wave 2 is still happening... somehow...
He said he spoke with Leo.... I didn't hear him say anything about what Leo said
Yeah...I was wondering what it'd be.
🤔
Perhaps that is all Leo said, nothing.
I love how Bad Crow Games handled the situation when things went down after one of their members passed away. Never seen such honesty and transparancy
Hey, I just wanted to say I understand and share your feelings. It's extremely disappointing neither of the most popular platforms calls the non-communicating companies out on their responsibilities to us, the backers. Thanks, KoA, for your continued efforts to inform us, call them out, ... At least you care about us
Yup. Communication is the easiest form of customer service and business ethic. If a company cannot even do this bare minimum, you cant trust them as they have poor values, whether or not they mean well. That lack of service in one area will very likely be reflected elsewhere. Everyone makes mistakes, how they resolve them is what matters.
It was these very behaviour that led me to drastically reduce my crowdfunding ventures. I now tend to avoid miniature 'heavy' projects, sticking mainly to expansions.
Mythic will deliver DD at least International versions. I think wave 2 also buy question is quality for wave 2, for sure it wasnt tested. They are still alive, this info is from one of translators. Even they dont have people to support delivery, they are still cooperating with International game producers. For me they should give DD rights to someone else, because this is great game, and it would be good to have ver 2.0
I don't need 2.0 but I desperately need the expansions from Wave 2 to complete the game. I really hope it will happen. Even if some other company should take over or something.
Until Kickstarter or Game Found are held responsible they won't change. It's not exactly the same, but Amazon is being held responsible for the safety of 3rd party sellers items. So maybe there is hope.
I have the copy of Rise of the Necromancers i got from Sore Loser Games on my table right now.
I love the game, but every time i play i am reminded of the Undead Sea expansion i backed via Mythic's gamefound campaign that has no updates, no communication, and if it ever sees the light of day would ask for more money to receive.
This is a smaller campaign, sure, but in this case and with Monsterpocalypse Mythic is not only hurting their reputation but damaging another game studio's product and reputation
Ya know KOA, these campaigns have turned me completely off crowdfunding almost 100%... I have been burned by Mythic Games, Blacklist Games, Lazy Squire Games, Limbo Miniatures and Red Joker. lets be honest, if its not CMON or Steamforged, I am just not interested. Sucks, cause your channel was so inspirational for me, guiding me towards upcoming games, showing me exclusive content and getting to see demos had me just dumping money into crowdfunding. And not that its your fault or anything KOA, I am my own person...but these kinds of campaigns being ran this poorly does hurt the ENTIRE industry.
I hear you there dude and totally agree. There's still good out there, but it gets buried in the bad. I try to still show off the good, but sometimes enough is enough for people.
I expected another ransom for Monsterpocalypse, looks like we aren’t even going to get an update. Like many other backers, I sank hundreds into the kickstarter. I haven’t pledged since for any other project.
I've really only backed smaller RPG projects from creators that have really good track records lately.
I am still waiting for my copy of Darkest Dungeon... despite paying for their ransom. And because of this bad experience I turned from supporting 12 crowdfunding projects year to one or two.
Same, we are better off.
I traded in an expansion as my contribution, so I didn't have to send them actually more money.
I will always be sad...about not receiving Monsterpocalypse....dammit...
That's how I feel about the Rainbow 6: Siege board game. I will never forgive them for hyping me up this much about a game and trying to extort me.
I agree fully with your comments about lack of communication and poor culture. Backers are there to fund the creation and delivery of games and not the possibility of doing so as long as the creators are business savvy enough to make them happen.
There must be a way for Gamefound and Kickstarter to control the release of funds at stages based on evidence provided in advance of costs to develop, produce, ship etc. As it stands after 30 plus backs, I have pretty much turned off backing games due to poor experiences.
As well as MG, I would be interested to hear what you think about Stormsunder from LSG. Perfect example of poor communication and poor culture and customer service.
Oh my Goodness love the candor...IT IS SO REFRESHING. I have Kickstarted, Gamfounded many projects and have been very lucky. I have one bad actor Black Box Adventures for Adventures in Neverland. It was supposed to deliver in March of 2021. Funded in June of 2020. This was my first foray into Mini Games. I am usually a Euro gamer, but man, Peter Pan based on the original not Disney with Minis and Jolly Roger, WOW, I was sold the minute I saw it. Little is to say I was so psyched for for this. The interesting thing here is they have never stopped communication with the backers throughout all this time every few months they update. Their latest update on Kickstarter is they are not making Essen this year. They always note something else wrong in the update postponing delivery. From that point on (2022 when they went so silent for so long) I have avoided minis games unless it is CMON (Marvel United X-Men) or Awaken Realms (Dragon Eclipse). These are Cos with a proven track record, but not cheap. I refuse to do anything else after the Neverland debacle. I have passed on so many Indie games that look so enticing for all the reasons noted in this video...In short so often they are Rip-Off Artists and Kickstarter and Gamefound could genuinely Give A @%#! for the backer. If the Co has no record then I refuse to back it, and I avoid the Minis as they are the worst offenders. This is a Buyer beware industry(Kickstarter/Gamefound). There is absolutely no recourse for the backer here, and you just have to be very careful where you put your money! Thank you King of the Above Average for educating the masses on this. It is so important word gets out there. You are right the industry is destroying itself, but soon there will be no space for the Indie as all trust will be gone for all as it has for me.
A few less than charitable thoughts;
As Scotty said, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Why would anyone give them more money after things went bad.
Why did this happen? Everything happens for a reason. Sometimes the reason is we are stupid and make bad decisions.
I paid the first ransom because the scenario with all the crap going on in the world was plausible and understandable. I didnt pay the second ransom because at that point it was clear they were just a bunch of fuck-ups.
I averaged about 25 KS backs per year prior to this mess. I have now backed the Clank! Legacy game ands that’s it. I think I’m officially done. The benefits are basically gone plus you’re assuming sooo much risk. Besides, we all have too many unplayed games already. Am I right here? Trust me, crowdfunding board games has a shelf life that’s about to expire. It’s going to go belly up.
I agree with everything besides the Belly up, remember King of Average on covers part of the the industry with certain type of game. Many games right now are twice as expensive as they were years ago, and their still getting their funding and more so. Compared to all the failures like mythic their are 10x more games that deliver.
My breaking point was the complete lie that you will not pay a second time if you pay the first ransom, then turn around and say you had to. I did NOT pay the second ransom knowing it meant losing all that initial contribution. I am now so happy I didnt.
I've been saying this since before the pandemic but something has massively shifted in the gov't subsidies that board game printer companies in China has previously. It was basically CCP doctrine to corner as much of the broader textiles market as possible, no matter how niche the products, hobby, professional, or otherwise. This was first and foremost a political policy, not an economic one. But the sort of insane subsidies that many/most manufacturers we're getting have now been heavily titrated; that sort of money hose cannot last forever. At some point, the number of available manufacturers of our particular niche hobby went from many to just a handful. Ask Panda or any other primary North American wing of various manufacturing hubs. The cost of board game manufacturing, at the quality we've become accustomed to, is nowhere near the true cost sans subsidies. We're talking a 3-5x true world cost increase simply because there just aren't that many manufacturers around the world that can handle this sort of scale. And now we're starting to see all these realities finally revealing what we should've been paying all along. And frankly, I don't know if people will be willing to pay $1000 on what was previously a $200-300 multi-box, crazy quality product. Maybe. But not in the numbers that would sustain the output and fulfillment that has happened in the past.
Inflation and the shipping container pricing issues, which have been the worst this year, have broken the backs of many companies. But that doesn't excuse the lack of communication.
It aggravated their situation, but that's not what caused their current situation.
Those are just the things that exposed the unsustainable business practices. They did not cause them.
The Mythic fiasco has made me alot more cognizant about what and whom I back. Before, if it was cool and the price wasn't too bad, I would just back. Now, the only companies I will back are the ones who deliver, have a proven track record, good communication, etc. Any new companies I will find out the names associated with the companies and who they are and what they do and weigh the risks. I would rather pay $50-100 more 3 years down the road from ebay from someone who has it than assume the risk from an iffy company or one with no proven record and grandiose big box dreams. Just gotta keep yourself from FOMOing into a bad situation which sometimes is easier said than done.
That was the problem though, on the surface Mythic looked like a reliable company. They delivered products (with the usual hiccups) right up until they didn't.
If they’re not going to deliver physical products they need to release the digital files so I can print the minis and paper myself.
I've definitely slowed way down with my backing. One, I don't have the time or space to keep backing. Two, I'm tired of my money being taken and then hoping I get something out of it. I'm just going to start buying second hand or backing retailers if it's something that I absolutely "need."
Backed Anastyr, Hel and Monsterpocalypse… because of all this I try not to back anything anymore. If there is a kickstarter game that I really want then I buy it from backers who are selling. Zero risk involved,
Despite getting scammed by Mythic and Blacklist, and screwed over by the Rallyman Dirt shipping fiasco, I’m still backing projects like a beast. 💀💀💀😂👍
We focus on the negative, but still lots of cool games out there
@@TheKingofAverage Yeah, the majority of games are delivered, after all. These fiascos are just fringe cases, unfortunately big projects...
Thanks for what you do, dude. After MG's Monsterpocalypse (which we haven't had an update for since March 2023) and Grimlord's VA: Grim Dynasty issues, I kinda just either back things from creators that I've backed before and had no or very few issues with or just have been backing TTRPGs now. Haven't been burned again since, so far anyway.
Yep. Bringing real information that is below the surface. Great work for real.
I was going to say, February 2024, I wish Monsterpocalypse had an update that recently.
How's Lazy Squire doing with the communication about their campaigns? Are they the next Mythic?
their communication is indeed terrible, but at least they haven't asked for ransoms. imo Mythic is worse because they lied about needing money for "shipping" multiple times.
@@davidautinifyyep. Their whole Anastyr campaign was a lie.
Monthly updates from LSG, but they are all fluff. SS is coming up on 2 years working on playtesting and balancing alone, it’s a year delayed just for that aspect, and no end in sight. WA had had a year delay for minis and no real reason given.
I’ve fully accepted my Stormsunder pledge is completely lost at this point
yeah their updates have been pretty poor for the WA reprint. its just some miniatures and zero comments about whats actually going on
I always wonder what the exact point was at which mythic began to sink. Was it Joan of Arc, Reichbusters,....
Some folks say that mythic were good at making games that were unplayable when they delivered and they had to churn out errata packs that replaced nearly everything...Even DD wave 1 suffers from this
I totally forgot about my Cyber Odyssey (by Red Joker) pledge until this video. Crazy how long that has been without an update. Guess no chance that game gets delivered.
Sucks, I was quite excited about that game
If a company is unable to send me the game that I paid for, I am not paying again. Ever. I am SOL, but if they are incompetent enough or just unfortunate enough even one time, there's no reason to think giving them more money is going to make a difference. It's enabling. Even if it occasionally works, it's almost a pyramid scheme. I am entirely done with this BS. The only games I back on crowdfunding anymore are hex and counter wargames which usually have no miniatures and (nearly) always fulfill. The fact that Mythic Games is still a going concern and still bilking customers out of millions of dollars is beyond belief. NO game is worth ANY OF THIS.
It's a recurring theme in this arena that you've got enthusiastic game developers making games, but are sadly lacking in business sense. It's understandable in small companies making their first games. Once you are as big as mythic, there's no excuse
100% true. More and more I look to companies that are ran by a duo, 1 creative and 1 business focused
I get your point that failure to communicate generally means things aren't going well. But I have to admit I'd rather a company go quiet and sort themselves out than communicate to ask me to sort them out by sending them more money. I'm seeing this with a project I backed a few years ago. Clearly they are out of money. They're not communicating great. But the creator is just trying to make money elsewhere to fund the completion of the project. And honestly I'd take that over "there's no more money now, you have to pay". (Though of course, this doesn't stop them communicating as well).
I applaud your work, especially when you do this kind of videos. You also helped with the communication with Flyos (even though Werewolf still looks far from being delivered). You might be small, but I feel that in the board game community, you are know, your voice does have a good weight.
About self-regulating market, this is a myth. If you don't fight for your side, no one will and the balance will always pend to the other side. And again, I'm glad that we have your channel as an advocate for us... I don't see many others doing that as well (but there are some, or there are specific subjects others may talk about).
Keep doing what you're doing for us! I'll for sure keep entering your end of year's giveaways!
Losing several hundred dollars to Mythic games from Kickstarter hurt bad. It caused me to go from helping fund a dozen games per year to zero.
No longer being part of the crowd funding community even dampened my interest for board games in general. Not by a massive amount, but its effect noticable.
I still dont know what the hell Mythic did with the millions of dollars of our money?
Thanks for what you do man! I hope you keep on doing it!
i completely stopped backing anything. been screwed with tge dark eye (dutch edition), been screwed with judgement (600 bucks down the drain) and been screwed with okko 2 (also a few hundred bicks).
and then retailers and therefor non backers get the games, that actually are delivered, before the one’s that take the financial risk.
no thank you!
btw: the moving dragon in the background freaked me out! 😂👊🏻
hah! :D
Hi there,
BrunoDiaz, one of the creators using a false alt account to instigate and harass backers in the comments (Bruno Diaz is a spanish Batman reference). He has also stated on two occasions in the comments (you can find and look at these to tell your viewers), that manufacturing will NOT begin, until a certain volume of orders has been reached. This is why late pledge has been kept open for so long, they physically have stated the project is NOT MOVING FORWARD until they reach their amount of orders necessary (which was not reached during the campaign). This is backwards, predatory and ridiculous. The assumption should be that when a target goal for funding is reached, that it is enough to produce the game. With people pulling back and requesting refunds (which they are NOT REFUNDING PEOPLE!! some people on the page have gone 3+ months without their refund be processed), I highly doubt that this game will ever, EVER go into production.
What the heck!
Additionally, it is important to stress in a video that the last update including the rules is only a first draft of the CORE RULEBOOK! And they have said they have not started work on the expansions yet. Wow.
it's a problem that won't get talked about or address outside of your channel for 2 reason I believe.
1) the money gained is too much for any of them to step up, hold people to standards/accountability, and take the revenue hit for their platform. Content creators don't want to say something becuase these board game companies will jump all over them and not just the one that is doing wrong. you can see that in the stuff you covered Aeon Trespass Odyssey issues where companies not even related to the issue were all over social media slamming the content created for his personal views. When you go complain about things being wrong, not right , or a problem to bring attention to it what tends to happen in return is all the people from the other side of that point of view jump on you to bully you into submission. Too many people can't have meaningful conversations without acting like a bully and attacking the other side and it's sad. People let their emotions dictate their responses and don't take the time to process before responding. it's a hard thing to due and takes a lot of work. I know you've been dragged through that before with a couple videos where you've called out something that was hypocritical of the creator to do and the community just hated on you and dragged your through the mud.
2) Backers keep coming back for the next game from these companies. A lot of us don't have a filter when we see a game to stop us from clicking back now and going all in. We need to do our research on companies before we back something and set proper expectations for ourselves. We need to force standards and accountability for them but the only real way to do that is vote with your wallet. Don't back the stuff from them. Do the research before clicking back. you see something you might like out there you wanna back, bookmark it, follow it, set a reminder to come back in a couple days to give yourself time to process.
Good content. I love the videos your do. sometimes it can feel like we're such a small group to stand out and make a difference. it's an uphill battle but I think this type of stuff helps people that view it and listen make better choices on games to back. Keep it up.
Kinda like getting scammed the first time on ebay. There have been games that shipped nice and easy, but some of them definitely spoil the fun and I gave up on crowdfunding because of that. If it's a game that is competent enough to go from kickstarter to stores, that's the place to find me. If they can't make it, the store is always full of other games that already exist.
Which is all kinda sad, because my favorite board game of all times came from kickstarter where it was very small amount of backers. The game went on and even kickstarted an upgraded version years later. I've been to a convention and met with the author to then help host a play session to showcase the game. And I'm proud to have been part of that journey, but after these experiences, it's difficult to trust anyone to do their part of the bargain just as correctly.
I have contacted companies and offered my services to act as a go between to stay in contact with the backers. Be it good bad or ugly news. I told Kick starter to create a job like this to help companies out and keep backers happy. KS response was "Not our problem."
In my opinion the more that people get no response. the more likely they are to stop backing.
I defended Mythic Games. I said Mythic was great at making games and delivering games. Till like you said things go sideways. Companies that I would never back again anything by the following:
Palladium Books ( did not finish second wave yet still tries to sell the game)
Minitech Games ( Never responds and so far super late on delivery)
These companies I am on the fence:
Archon Studio ( delivered very late but did communicate why )
Final Company DID NOT Deliver and would still back and why:
River Horse ( Could not deliver wave 3 of Pacific Rim. Gave me the Stl's, books AND a refund)
With these Issues. I have stopped backing a lot of games now. I am at the point where screw it i will buy it when it hits a games store shelf.
Archon makes awesome plastic sprues, terrain and stuff and delivers even before estimate, just saying. Their games are probably different story but I'm not backing those.
I imagine a few people owed hundreds will be looking out for Mythic at games conventions
They don't attend conventions anymore, of course.
Can't comment on Solomon Kane. I preordered and never received anything.
I'm on their discord and can't get any answers there.
Mythic: "Look, if you all just send us another $20, we'll get the games to you."
It's what I expected to happen since they asked for the money for wave 2 at least 1 year before they were even going to ship anything. Still don't get why so many people gave them even more money at that point
@bassmeo3937 well it was basically "pay us extra, or you won't get what you already spent hundreds on." So the thought process was "be out a little extra to get the product you paid for, or be out all the money you already were and also get nothing for it" 🤷 shitty situation ran by a, come to find out, shitty company. Once all this crap is over, they'll never see another dime from me. I hope they fall out of the industry forever at this point
@@LoshJysic Sure I get the sunken cost fallacy. It's also clearly what they were counting on. I also paid and got wave 1 (only backed core box) but I also only did it when I knew it was sitting in a warehouse already. Let's hope everyone in the industry doesn't want to work with them anymore
That's what I wish they would've done (and delievered on) with 6 - Siege. Instead I got "...just send us another $250."
Screw Darkest Dungeon! Let's get to Monsterpocalypse!
I recently purchased a smaller board game that came out last year, brought it home, and played it a bunch (and will continue playing it). I was excited to play it after having watched several reviews and playthroughs and it did not disappoint.
Contrast this with most of my crowdfunding experiences: I get very excited to play a game after seeing the reviews, playthroughs, and reading through the campaign page, so I back the game. And then the w a i t i n g begins. Many games are delayed (some are really delayed!) and by the time the game arrives I'm more often than not no longer that excited to play it. (It's hard to maintain interest when something takes two years to deliver.)
Hence I've pulled way back on backing games. The delayed timeframe, coupled with some of the shenanigans (i.e. poor businnes practices, lack of transparency) you mention in this video means that I've easily passed on six games in the past few months that I would've backed in the past. I've got plenty of games on hand and am concentrating on playing the ones I have.
The Batman game from Knight games issue is why I don't back indie devs on crowdfunding. This is why I stick with known quantities like Chip Theory, Awaken Realms, etc.
The sad thing here is that Knight models is not a newcomer, they are a model company with a couple of DC miniatures games (skirmish as far as I know). At least to have the licence and some history takes them out of the indie spectrum.
That said, they also have a history of poor customer support and apparently that also goes for their last and this crowdfunding games. But I found out this after the Batman game.
Basically, the no indie rule didn't work for them at least for me.
@@hugo1456 Yep bad communication but they usually deliver based on what others said.
@@CheddahSlammer bad communication is a bad project already.
But is not the only thing :
+The refunds being requested and (apparently delayed)
+Creating a new DC STL sale on another platform without proving to this project
+No promotion of this project
+All of that and they say in the comments that now they are waiting for a certain number of orders to start production (a mysterious number because they are not sharing how many they want/need and how many they have).
I mean, we are seeing the orders somewhat drop, no promotion for new orders and on top of that they waiting more orders to start production.
This is a lot of red flags than just a bad communication issue
Hello Michael !
I drasticaly reduce the number of KS I pledge since the MG situation... I only pledged for League of Dungeoneers expansions and the Monolith games (Conan and MBR expansions, not MBI. but can't wait for Berserk). I almost backed Okko at the time but finally wasn't fan of the gameplay. Yes, I dodge this bullet... But I'm a backer of Anastyr AND Stormsunder.
Actually you can find a lot of Mythic product on third market in France. Like 6siege, new for 99€, and I've heard they have let go Mike, who tracked the production for Mythic. I think they are at last going for bankruptcy.
Mythic games killed my desire to back anything on crowdfunding platforms. i lost 600 on Anastyr, which I backed for the minis to paint and display in dioramas. but the final nail in the coffin is Limbo: eternal War 1.5 edition. YEARS without a game, then changes to the game/rules/rulebooks in like, july of 2024, then an update with jokes in it. At this point, if a game is good, i'll just pay more on the second hand market. i'll save a lot more money that way.
I did the process to pay the 6 Siege contribution after the update in May: I was told an arbitrary amount of money and that some of the items from my original pledge were not available. When I replied asking for an itemized list, I was completely ghosted and have never heard back after roughly 10 very polite emails simply asking to confirm what I would be receiving if I paid the contribution.
I loved Super Fantasy Brawl! Steamwatchers were also good! Being a fan of the game I wanted to back Darkest Dungeon, but I didn't had money at that moment and now I'm glad that I missed it.
tell Leo we want a Leo Live. Man I should be having a blast playing my all-in Monserpocalypse right now! At least give us a print and play, dude!
Being a part of LSG's Wild Assent reprint has made me pull back big time on backing crowdfunding projects. The comment section has turned fairly toxic and they have stopped responding to even polite requests for information on their progress. Even when they were responding and communicating to backers is was just to tell us that, no, they would not talk about timelines while completely ignoring concerns about the massive delays with the project. It doesn't seem like LSG thinks they owe their backers anything at all. They have even blamed backers for being upset about missed timelines and use that as an excuse for their radio silence. Imagine that, a project creator playing the victim card when they have taken their backers money and returned nothing.
I escaped Mythic but I understand how their backers must feel as it seems like the same thing is happening to us as well. I do not expect to receive anything from LSG at this point, not a game, an apology nor any sort of acknowledgment that they have done anything wrong.
Great video. I love DD as a game. Painted it up too. That being said we need to find other avenues to get word from Mythic. Reach out to who ever has a business dealing with them. Vendors, utilities, credit, etc. Anyone that has communication with them should get an email notice from all investors demanding an update.
I think a lot of us are reluctant to comment on the crowdfunding sites because there’s always some die hard fans trying to shut any critical questions down. I asked a very legit question at the The Story Of Many campaign on Gamefound; how far are you guys in development with this. It’s a legit question because the developers promise a novel’s worth of writing. In my experience this is often what leads to major delays. 400.000+ words surely sounds impressive but in reality that stuff takes time and if nothing is written then we are facing a long development process. I got met with a lot of negative comments where the main argument was that I was trying to shut down a game that’s not even live yet.
That’s pretty far from my intention. I just want an honest answer to what I can expect. Is this just an idea or did the developers work two years in advance on this project.
To much compagny goes to KS or Gamefound knowing that if things don't go well they can just dispear with no consequence.
I'm so afraid that one time you either give up or burn out... :'( I hope you can keep going for us, boardgamers! WE SUPPORT YOU!
Appreciate it :) I'm a helpless optimist hence my continued assumption that Mythic would do well - bit me in the butt, but it is who I am. Not going anywhere :)
It really sucks. I only backed this game for the Weald minis. FOMO caught up with me and I went all in (plus an extra musketeer). This was all of my disposable income for like 2 years.
I know Marco was out on an injury for a long time, and he is kind of their top rep in terms of communication.
At this point they should release an update, or the STLs for people to print their own minis.
Amanda was the one out for surgery, Marco wasn't as far as I know though he does take a long summer holiday like most europeans.
@@PRC533 They were both out on medical leave. If you pop into the discord you'll see explanations.
@@MySqueezingArm I left the discord awhile ago because all I have left with them is Rise of the Necromancers, which is likely never going to be produced.
@@PRC533 Totally understandable. I was just pointing out the information we could piece together over in the DD room. I'm sorry you're stuck in this cycle with us.
Looks like Funforge is mayby getting Monumental delivered soon. Been much silence there but adress verifications for EU went out last week from their fullfillment center. Same thing there, I had already written it off as a failure due to communication being dead. But looks like there is a good surprise coming.
I've stopped backing some big companies due to bad communucation. Like CMON, who also is just making the same games over and over and when they try something new it too often ends up with bad commonication and very long silent delays.
Will we ever see the rest of Darkest Dungeon? Likely not, but if it happens it will be a good surprise. I didn't pay anything extra for wave 2 but got 1 addon removed to cover the fee foe the rest, so we'll see what the future brings.
You mention at the start you talked to Leo. At what time point in the video do you reveal what he said/didn't say?
He spoke with Leo to take his compensation and turn his coat, there's nothing more to look for 😂
I've pretty much given up on ever receiving "Darkest Dungeon" and "Escape from Arkham Asylum," and the doubt is definitely building with Lazy Squire's "Wild Assent - Lavon Rising."
Wave 1 was the game in English, all backers who didn't choose English got nothing ....
:(
After all the Mythic drama I got super cautious. I dodged the Arkham bullet easily as it had been shot by a company with a shady track record.
There’s no money. Any money made available goes into paying debt.
Someone must be personally financially accountable because this would have wound up by now if it wasn’t.
This is being dragged out so someone can avoid prison.
Mythic Games has nothing on Level UP Dice who abandoned their Rotal Dice Mold project (almost 1 year since the last update)
There's another one of these campaigns that was way smaller, but exhibited the same behavior. 911 Operator board game, they took money and then would not update for months. Come to find out that three months after the campaign they still didn't even have a manufacturing deal. Supposedly they do now and have actually taken shipping money from people (which was outrageous as well, to the tune of $40 on a game of the same price) and now continue to offer no actual updates. They haven't even shown any photos of components since the prototype.
Thanks for this video, definitely needed!!! Red Joker seemed like they would be delivering, no issues, but out of the blue they halt communications. I lost money with Mythic on several games, and they were going good, then their scheme caught up with them and hurt backers. There is no backer help from anyone as you say, and it is a reason why I rarely back, when I used to back all-ins on all the miniature heavy games. Awaken Realms is mostly the only one I mostly trust at this point. CMON kinda dropped off, especially shipping, but they still seem to deliver.
Red Joker and Cyber Odyssey have killed crowdfunding for me
To answer your one question, I haven't turned away from crowd funding BUT I have greatly drawn back from backing. Now I only back company’s I'm atleast 95% sure will give me a game (CMON, SFG, AR) no more smaller companies for me. Been burnt 3-4 times now and can't afford to do that no more. Also, did you see knight models is launching a campaign on My Mini Factory for official licensed DC stls.
I think the lesson to learn here is to stop backing projects from companies that have more than 1-2 unfulfilled campaigns. I don't have any issues buying into games if I know that this is going to be their focus and don't have to manage 5 games at once. Ludus Magnus is the same. They have 6 undelivered games right now and are still making more gamefound projects.
36:16 if only some german dude with a kick ass beard was hear to answer this question. (The same one that has been asked about every industry.)
For Mythic Games, I was screwed for Hel: Last Saga. Another game with the creator going MIA with no update on pending pledge delivery or refund was by Koliba publishing and their campaign: Zerywia. They went ahead and did a reprint campaign as well and also did not deliver or provide a refund for some of their backers.
I have tried reporting it to Kickstarter and Gamefound but they don't seem to take this seriously. Best thing i can do now is hold back pledging and just wait for retail or a reprint of the game.
"If Mythic games is going to go down. They get to choose how they go down."
Detractors of crowfunding already hold this company up as the shinging standard of how the whole process is a scam.
They communicated what they needed in the first place when shipping costs were up and got dragged for it. The word "ransom" started at that point.
Turning customer service into a reason for their downfall, completely ignoring how sensitive the community gets about boxes.
The community chose how this dev went down a few years ago.
Lazy squire games, while giving monthly updates, are giving what most of us are calling "Nothing Updates". We've been waiting on Wild Assent reprint and expansion, plus Stormsunder. I mean, its a joke at this point. Wild Assent has been MONTHS of showing off samples from the factory, with no real timeline. Stormsunder has been MONTHS upon MONTHS of saying their testing. 5 years or so now? Going on for that one?
Like i said, they're still communicating but its what i consider "Stalling" communication. How are they still operating? Where are the funds coming from? We're practically positive nothing good is coming our way.
I truly believe that Robert doesn’t have the money to produce the game
I backed the Ravaged Star campaign just for the Gorgog alien minatures. I just wanted an alien race that I could use in my starfinder campaign, it's funny to find out that the art of the minis was from Lazy Squire Games. I started that campaign since I got tired of waiting on Stormsunder which I only backed for the minis.
I just got an expansion to Keep the Heroes Out last week. No minis, just meeples, small box. It was only $65 altogether. I think at this point I won't back a big company's game but look more into smaller games without lots of setup. It seems that is the reason why this is happening in the board game space.
@@Zorogundam19 I just got Keep the heroes out boss battle expansion too and really fun amazing game
5:05 Really now, everything they did was awesome?
Reichbusters? Bad game, bad QA. Joan of Arc? Unfinished, unpolished design and bad QA. Mythic Battles 1.0? Bad QA. Steamwatchers? Just okay and nobody talks or talked about it. Hel? We'll never know but the core system was so bad it had to be totally redesigned.
Come on now, Mythic Games always had problems, it was decidedly hit or miss. Don't revise history.
Hmm, I think picking and choosing a selection of bad is no different than me picking and choosing the good. :)
You do have a point, "always" was not the correct choice on my part and if this has been scripted, would not be the choice I would pick.
@@TheKingofAverage That is exactly what I am saying. You chose *only* the good ones and said it was all awesome, I just *added* the bad ones and then said that it's a mixed bag, not that it was all bad. Not the same at all imo.
But fair point, this was shot from the hip, mistakes can happen! All good! 👍
@@Tharukan Joan of Arc 1.5 is actually a siginificant improvement over 1.0 and a very good game, IMHO.
@@1AngelAlita still needed a 1.5, didn't it? Hit & Miss, that's what I'm saying 😄
I think any company that takes a massive loss and know that they’re not gonna make it should honestly send out flash drives to the people who have paid for the game.. That way, they have a possibility of still getting the game and printing it on their own.
It would be very nice if they could somehow deliver wave 2 of Darkest Dungeon. I've already written off Hel (although the Cmon offering might be a half decent consolation prize). I'm not sure how much longer I can hold on to hope but it would be nice. I feel my resolve is being tested and it's being tested by Mythic.
Hey King.
The damage hasn't really been done by the products which have failed to deliver - such as Hel for me - it's more the ones with the terrible communication. Stormsunder has had a more negative impact on me than Hel, for example. The being strung along is worse than the losing of the money. The annoyance of Middara dragging on and on not delivering what I paid for in July 2019 is cumulatively more annoying than Alba - an Open World Adventure Book which they fairly early on declared would not be delivering. The fact that people can buy Middara (for example) products now, and skip the investment for 5 years is super annoying.
For me, I have become way more wary of crowdfunding. I will do much more research, and I generally now wait for the second edition with expansions which generally comes out if the game is any good - and without all of the errors of the first version.
Its weird because Ive been getting a lot of messages from kick starters that shipping prices are up to Covid levels so their waiting until their their down to ship, and at the same time im getting games being shipped to me. So which is it. Me thinking that Mythic is doing the same thing, waiting for shipping to go down lol.
Good point! I've seen several such updates about freight.
I am a ROTN backer. Because of Mythic I never used kickstarter again and rarely back anything on GF, i have to really convince myself before i do, maybe it is good from a backer perspective that i am more vigilant with my cash and decision making by reseraching the game and developer a bit more than before , but it means i dont take punts on games that look cool and want to play from first time game developers, so they are probable the ones really suffering from all this more than anyone else. I have seen many new developers games i have followed not make crowfunding, because i, like others are tainted by this whole thing so dont back them as dont want to risk it.
I think an established game developer should go straight to retail and not use this type of risk free production, and only new developers be crowdfunded.
I like the idea of a bottom 10
Thanks! It really does help. It does make me think about how to come up with a better system (i.e., Game Found/Kickstarter broker-type company). The game company is always going to be their customer; they have the product to sell. I don't think a company would exist being a company of backers that will back everything a company puts up. Maybe Game Found (and even Kickstarter) could transition to that state because both companies do have a lot of people with money that do back products; I don't think a new company could start up that way. Still, I agree with you that Game Found could do a lot better. I like the "Bottom 10" list, but even celebrate those companies that show up on the list and, through repeated positive efforts, get off that list by communicating and delivering what they promised. In the meantime, the "Bottom 10" list will warn backers to beware. Also, Game Found should kick companies off their service if they do fail to communicate or deliver. Of course, in an era of new-company-of-the-day, that can be difficult to track sometimes. I do agree that the industry can do better. I have certainly shied-away from backing like I used to. Keep up the great work!
There is also the problem of filler communication companies. Stormsunder is one of those, every month is one more mini, just being dragged along with them obviously not telling us the bad news. Rome total war the board game was like this also before the new person took over.
Well, you could go all the way back to covering what happened to UpFront's campaign.
Im happy i wasnt around for monsterpocalypse, i would have spend so much money on it. Also, I thought DD had shipped since it on some retailer sites. I guess i was wrong. crazy. I know people don't like CMON and Chip Theory but so far i cant complain about not getting the stuff. Yeah they may not be cheap but id rather know what im paying up front and get my stuff.
I ordered RotN and have had a great communications with SLG who made the product. MG publishing was probably their biggest mistake. SLG is getting hosed because their IP is locked up and they can't publish anything new until MG releases the product is my guess. That is asshole kind of levels. MG can go to hell and Leo was great in communicating when the money was coming in, but not when it is not. There is a rule that exists. Don't fuck with people's money and leo did just that. Anything he touches will be tainted from this point on.
I have had so many issues with French companies, I am done backing from French creators. It seems to be a constant habit for me at least. Sad, they make amazing games!
MG is Luxembourg+Delaware. France had a developper office, like they had in the UK.
I backed an All-In for Okko, my biggest KS purchase to date. I will only back CMON and other big companies now. I will buy all other games at retail.