Well done calling there on the river. In my personal experience playing online, whenever I've played this way by betting all streets and checking the river, when no draws came in, the opponent (sensing weakness) almost always bet into me on the river mostly as a bluff.
Yea i was suprised to see Bart say fold when there are so many flush draws there,Im a terrible bluff catcher but seems like a lot of bluffs there and a value hand wouldve already raised
I assume a large part of it is that it is the combination of all 3 things 1) CO was described as a winning player 2) It is rare for people to double barrel into 2 players and then check fold 3) Hero kind of over repped their hand on the turn This puts hero in a situation where CO should be under-bluffing against the population and hero is at the bottom of their range (AdKx is pretty much the only worse hand they could have taken this value line with). Given the hero's line on the turn I would have played the river the same way, but I believe Bart when he says this is a losing line on average in a 5-10 game against a good opponent.
@ qazzak Stan Agreed! I believe that Hero, after the previous action, should strongly lean to a Fold with AK, as well. - However, from Villain's perspective, who has many two-pair+ hands in his range, it is actually not so easy to come up with any other bluffs than with the NFD; he is probably not supposed to have either of QJ or KT, with the latter blocking AK, while having slivers of SD value . To summarize: Villain is indeed quite value-heavy, and Hero should most often fold. - However, Hero got lucky and caught one of Villain's few bluffs.
Love this Chanel. The other day at work i listened to 8 or 9 call ins. After work i won a tournament at my local card room. Think my mind was in a good space..
I'm going to have to watch this episode again, because my thought process was a lot like the callers. I probably would have check called the river hoping that the player was on a missed diamond draw that might bluff.
Yea just commented before the reveal, if he had a set or 2 pair, even Q10 almost every time he is raising the turn bet, scared or a flush or straight. Once he didn't do that, it's def a check call. Don't see Barts point of view on this one. But I don't prob bet the turn, with 3 people.
It's a good line for balance. I usually exploit based on my opponent. If they are passive or your average reg, then I'll value bet and if they are aggressive or have the potential to spaz, I'll do more check calling on this river. I'm more prone to taking this line with weaker hands as I feel I can get value with AK on the river with an aggressive image.
I agree, and was thinking even before the caller stated the outcome that if I held the Ace of diamonds rather than the Ace of hearts, I would have leaned more toward folding--but villain has all of the busted AX flush draws.
I’ve lived all across the country over the past several years and am going to move back to New Hampshire later this month to be closer to family again. Really looking forward to playing at Boston encore and chasers
He has a busted Diamond draw more often than QT, cause he would have raised the turn with a straight to charge/get value from flush draws/set, two pair etc
This is a spot where you want the image of being someone who often enough makes block bets on the river with a big hand. You bet $200 and make it a lot harder to raise to $825 than to bet it after you check. It also makes them think that to bluff, they have to jam, and that's hard to do against a bet that's likely trying to induce exactly that. You unblock diamonds, so as Bart said, the turn is less scary than if it had been a rainbow flop or you had a diamond. This is a tricky hand to play if you don't know villain's flatting range/probabilities in that spot. If you do, and can pretty much eliminate QTo, then hero's line is not bad. I'd just aim for a little more pot control on turn and a lot more pot control on river.
Bart’s logic is flawed. He says he would fold here based on pre flop configuration and the villain calling flop and turn with a player behind. But he also hates villains bluff. If Bart thinks AK in hero’s spot is an easy fold then why wouldn’t the villain bluff with A6? If villain can get AK to fold then it’s a good bluff!
Because AK is the bottom of hero's value range. Sure, he gets AK to fold, but he also loses extra money to AA, KK, JJ, 55, KJ, (QT if hero is going sneaky check raise).
@@hoopaholik91 I think its just very unlikely that hero would check hands like JJ,55, KJ or QT on the river. Yes, sometimes this happens to induce a bluff or just set a trap. So when hero checks the river he can definetely have better hands than AK but I wouldnt say that it is at the bottom of his value range. He could have weaker kings.
@@hoopaholik91 How is AA any different from AK here? Why do you assume hero would check KK here? QT should never get "sneaky" here. The other sets are the same story. Now KJ might check call here... but I don't think your post is well thought out.
I don't agree with bart here. No QT from villian unless specifically QTdd. Villian has a caller behind him, he'd want to raise the turn to make flush draws pay and commit AA or sets.
I think check call is fine, a ton of players bluff any missed diamonds when checked to. The only problem is when he jams for 2500 as a bluff you have to be able to pull the trigger on a call. For that reason I don’t hate going like 500 on the river, makes it harder for the guy to bluff jam. This guy setting a price at 800 isn’t gonna get it done enough
Before anyone asks what to do with A6s. It’s just an easy fold preflop. This hand plays terrible post flop where you will flop a weak A and end up paying off a stronger A at-least one bet, flop a 6 with bd diamonds that end up paying off a bet also, or just whiff and fold a-lot. the times when you make a flush is not often enough to counteract the times you’re losing especially at this stack depth where you win like 125BB when you actually cooler someone. At 200BB deep you can 3B some of the time due to the value of nut flush increasing when deeper and also facing less 4B when you’re deeper allowing you to realize more equity
They are moderately deep, this is perfectly fine situation to flat call in with a hand that easily makes the nuts. It would be an absolute disaster to 3bet a suited Ace and then get blown off your hand by a 4bet
Eh, weak suited aces are great for 3 bet bluffs pre. You block your opponent having an ace, and have decent playability if you get called. I'd prefer something like A5 with straight potential, but if you're deep enough I'd probably 3 bet A6 some of the time.
Don’t you think villain would raise the turn if he had Q-10. If he made his straight he wouldn’t want the flush to get there on the river. I would have checked the turn as hero and called down if diamond’s don’t come on the river. The river bet by the opponent seems like a missed flush draw with the huge sizing. I’d be putting out a blocker bet for value if I had it and I was the villain, not going this huge sizing. So it’s either straight or nothing in my mind can someone help me out to see a different angle here so I don’t get stacked lol
Either block bet the river and fold to a raise or check/fold to a big bet. You might be good with top pair OCCASIONALLY, but most of the time, you’re giving away a lot of money.
Yeah it was actually very lucky to see worst hand here i guess Jack or nine with flush draw could be turned into a bluff on river as well but that kind of play is rather rare. Good regs mostly are capable of it
@@jeremyhahn3612 Maybe u r right but even good regs might missplay and decide to bluff where they shouldnt cause opponents line looks strong or some of them might be ambitious or perceive opponent as fold happy there are a lot of factors and situations
It is a bad bluff because I think almost no one would actually fold AK to this line. Villain should Be raising flop and then turn if you wants fold. If he slowed plays this way with a monster, and I hope he bets all in on River
@hogi99 Quite possibly. When you bet the river And are raised, he's going to be more polarized. Only 7 8 of Diamonds and q 10 of any suits would fit villains bet for value. Otherwise he's bluffing. I do not think he's sandbagging, a set or two pair.... Which is why I disagree with bart
A lot of this hand has to do with the characterization of the villain and how we do perceive him. I think the perception Bart is getting is wrong, as a player like him should not really EVER be making that bluff. Not as a good a player as he was made out to be, which is why Hero’s call probably makes sense.
Yea it is not good to bluff a missed flush draw theory wise and also he has a small pair which possibly had some SDV,V has to think Heor is betting TP at least,so kinda ambitious to try to bluff him off that
First, it’s not just top pair, it’s top-top. Second, see results of hand. When the front door flush misses and there’s basically one flopped set possible you really have to have a player specific read to justify folding a hand like this.
First, it’s not just top pair, it’s top-top. Second, see results of hand. When the front door flush misses and there’s basically one flopped set possible you really have to have a player specific read to justify folding a hand like this.
River is check fold in my book. Although, if you know he bluffs missed draws your check calling is good, but without knowing that, I check fold to that bet size.
Bart: Like I said, I probably would have check folded….” Myself: I agree, the over-bet bluff % is low, it’s something I am trying to apply to my game to not over hero calling vs river bets, holding 1 pair, it’s rare they are bluffing.
Bart: Like I said, I probably would have check folded….” Myself: I agree, the over-bet bluff % is low, it’s something I am trying to apply to my game not over hero calling vs river bets, holding 1 pair, it’s rare they are bluffing.
Hero played perfect. AQdd, KQ, QJdd TJdd, AXdd, 9Tdd, etc. If villain showed w other than 78ss or TQ but the winning hand like p5's, I would have put him down as a super slowplayer. He thought hero would fold AK but the time to bluff was on the turn. I'd have to know villain super well and respect him a lot to fold.
Listening to these guys makes me feel like a poker genius XD likely if villian had a straight he would have jammed after your turn bet.. Still Could of had 2 pair/set/etc. Bet/fold this river would have been optimal if sizing was proper but it was fucked at the turn card XD smh
Well done calling there on the river. In my personal experience playing online, whenever I've played this way by betting all streets and checking the river, when no draws came in, the opponent (sensing weakness) almost always bet into me on the river mostly as a bluff.
Yea i was suprised to see Bart say fold when there are so many flush draws there,Im a terrible bluff catcher but seems like a lot of bluffs there and a value hand wouldve already raised
I assume a large part of it is that it is the combination of all 3 things
1) CO was described as a winning player
2) It is rare for people to double barrel into 2 players and then check fold
3) Hero kind of over repped their hand on the turn
This puts hero in a situation where CO should be under-bluffing against the population and hero is at the bottom of their range (AdKx is pretty much the only worse hand they could have taken this value line with). Given the hero's line on the turn I would have played the river the same way, but I believe Bart when he says this is a losing line on average in a 5-10 game against a good opponent.
@ qazzak Stan Agreed! I believe that Hero, after the previous action, should strongly lean to a Fold with AK, as well. - However, from Villain's perspective, who has many two-pair+ hands in his range, it is actually not so easy to come up with any other bluffs than with the NFD; he is probably not supposed to have either of QJ or KT, with the latter blocking AK, while having slivers of SD value .
To summarize: Villain is indeed quite value-heavy, and Hero should most often fold. - However, Hero got lucky and caught one of Villain's few bluffs.
I check/call the river. My hand isn't good enough to bet but good enough to call a bet. And checking shows weakness so you can get some random bluffs.
Love this Chanel. The other day at work i listened to 8 or 9 call ins. After work i won a tournament at my local card room. Think my mind was in a good space..
Same, I love the way Bart approaches the game, he's fully knowledgeable on the math and statistics but also gives room for the human element
Mohegan sun is a beautiful casino. I played 1/2 there a couple times.
It would be so interesting if we could get a call with both players of a hand to see what they both were thinking. This was a good hand.
Agree. Would love to know villains thought process.
I'm going to have to watch this episode again, because my thought process was a lot like the callers. I probably would have check called the river hoping that the player was on a missed diamond draw that might bluff.
Yea just commented before the reveal, if he had a set or 2 pair, even Q10 almost every time he is raising the turn bet, scared or a flush or straight. Once he didn't do that, it's def a check call. Don't see Barts point of view on this one.
But I don't prob bet the turn, with 3 people.
It's a good line for balance. I usually exploit based on my opponent. If they are passive or your average reg, then I'll value bet and if they are aggressive or have the potential to spaz, I'll do more check calling on this river. I'm more prone to taking this line with weaker hands as I feel I can get value with AK on the river with an aggressive image.
I agree, and was thinking even before the caller stated the outcome that if I held the Ace of diamonds rather than the Ace of hearts, I would have leaned more toward folding--but villain has all of the busted AX flush draws.
This was about where I was. You might also have kq being for value. Idk tho interesting hand
Let’s all stake Bart, so he can play in the big game at hustler and felt Nik airball a few times?
Except nick is a Better player. That part
@@eternalselph quit glazin
Nick is good at getting into people's heads, but my money would be on Bart.
@@eternalselphplease come to my casino and play like air/odd/butterball I beg you
Bart could give him a fantastic tour of Value Town 😁
I’ve lived all across the country over the past several years and am going to move back to New Hampshire later this month to be closer to family again. Really looking forward to playing at Boston encore and chasers
He has a busted Diamond draw more often than QT, cause he would have raised the turn with a straight to charge/get value from flush draws/set, two pair etc
The better the villain the more likely I'm going to call. Bad players don't bluff enough, good players find these bluffs.
This is a spot where you want the image of being someone who often enough makes block bets on the river with a big hand. You bet $200 and make it a lot harder to raise to $825 than to bet it after you check. It also makes them think that to bluff, they have to jam, and that's hard to do against a bet that's likely trying to induce exactly that.
You unblock diamonds, so as Bart said, the turn is less scary than if it had been a rainbow flop or you had a diamond. This is a tricky hand to play if you don't know villain's flatting range/probabilities in that spot. If you do, and can pretty much eliminate QTo, then hero's line is not bad. I'd just aim for a little more pot control on turn and a lot more pot control on river.
Nice call great read, credit is due
Bart’s logic is flawed. He says he would fold here based on pre flop configuration and the villain calling flop and turn with a player behind. But he also hates villains bluff. If Bart thinks AK in hero’s spot is an easy fold then why wouldn’t the villain bluff with A6? If villain can get AK to fold then it’s a good bluff!
Because AK is the bottom of hero's value range. Sure, he gets AK to fold, but he also loses extra money to AA, KK, JJ, 55, KJ, (QT if hero is going sneaky check raise).
@@hoopaholik91 I think its just very unlikely that hero would check hands like JJ,55, KJ or QT on the river. Yes, sometimes this happens to induce a bluff or just set a trap. So when hero checks the river he can definetely have better hands than AK but I wouldnt say that it is at the bottom of his value range. He could have weaker kings.
@@hoopaholik91 How is AA any different from AK here? Why do you assume hero would check KK here? QT should never get "sneaky" here. The other sets are the same story. Now KJ might check call here... but I don't think your post is well thought out.
I don't agree with bart here. No QT from villian unless specifically QTdd. Villian has a caller behind him, he'd want to raise the turn to make flush draws pay and commit AA or sets.
I think check call is fine, a ton of players bluff any missed diamonds when checked to. The only problem is when he jams for 2500 as a bluff you have to be able to pull the trigger on a call. For that reason I don’t hate going like 500 on the river, makes it harder for the guy to bluff jam. This guy setting a price at 800 isn’t gonna get it done enough
I agree with Bart on the turn check but if I check river, it’s to check call unless he jams really
Yeah that sounds like Mohegan Sun poker. I'd love to meet you down here!
Should villain not have a more polarizing bet size when bluffing it off on the river? More like 1.5 or 2x pot?
I call cuz if he has set or 2 pair he raised the turn bet, scared of losing to a flush or straight. Haven't watched the end.
Why not KJ ?
I doubt any of these reads are true tbh. If CO is winning he’s probably a small winner in these games. No solid reg is flatting A6s in the CO vs HJ
Before anyone asks what to do with A6s. It’s just an easy fold preflop. This hand plays terrible post flop where you will flop a weak A and end up paying off a stronger A at-least one bet, flop a 6 with bd diamonds that end up paying off a bet also, or just whiff and fold a-lot. the times when you make a flush is not often enough to counteract the times you’re losing especially at this stack depth where you win like 125BB when you actually cooler someone. At 200BB deep you can 3B some of the time due to the value of nut flush increasing when deeper and also facing less 4B when you’re deeper allowing you to realize more equity
They are moderately deep, this is perfectly fine situation to flat call in with a hand that easily makes the nuts. It would be an absolute disaster to 3bet a suited Ace and then get blown off your hand by a 4bet
Eh, weak suited aces are great for 3 bet bluffs pre. You block your opponent having an ace, and have decent playability if you get called.
I'd prefer something like A5 with straight potential, but if you're deep enough I'd probably 3 bet A6 some of the time.
For the sake of balancing the calling range, why not? A6dd needed to raise the turn. He played it too passively. Turn
Remember only 6 players.
The rare casino Bart has never been to. We will never know how wild things could get in the old days at the 200/400 table on alternate Mondays.
Don’t you think villain would raise the turn if he had Q-10. If he made his straight he wouldn’t want the flush to get there on the river. I would have checked the turn as hero and called down if diamond’s don’t come on the river. The river bet by the opponent seems like a missed flush draw with the huge sizing. I’d be putting out a blocker bet for value if I had it and I was the villain, not going this huge sizing. So it’s either straight or nothing in my mind can someone help me out to see a different angle here so I don’t get stacked lol
What mistake to avoid?
I guess it was the "overplay" on the turn. Or maybe it was not folding on the river....?
Either block bet the river and fold to a raise or check/fold to a big bet. You might be good with top pair OCCASIONALLY, but most of the time, you’re giving away a lot of money.
Bart the tag n the lag callers are never on the same page lol
Great analysis Bart.
Spot on.
huh??
Bart I don't agree with you here, which is rare. First time for everything!
You might want to repeat the experience.
Yeah it was actually very lucky to see worst hand here i guess Jack or nine with flush draw could be turned into a bluff on river as well but that kind of play is rather rare. Good regs mostly are capable of it
Good regs are going to shut down knowing they don't have any credible value hands. The only value hand that might slow play this hard is QTdd
@@jeremyhahn3612 Maybe u r right but even good regs might missplay and decide to bluff where they shouldnt cause opponents line looks strong or some of them might be ambitious or perceive opponent as fold happy there are a lot of factors and situations
Why aren't u supposed to bluff missed diamonds there?
Because the most winning player from Commerce Casino said so, duh! 😂
Nothing wrong with that line. I even purposely check to allow the missed diamond draws to bluff at it.
It is a bad bluff because I think almost no one would actually fold AK to this line. Villain should Be raising flop and then turn if you wants fold. If he slowed plays this way with a monster, and I hope he bets all in on River
Bart was bang on here :)
First time I disagree with Bart. The river for sure is.a check call. Too many miss draws out there
I actually put him on a busted diamond draw...interesting take by Bart
Interesting, as in wrong. 😂
@hogi99 Quite possibly. When you bet the river And are raised, he's going to be more polarized. Only 7 8 of Diamonds and q 10 of any suits would fit villains bet for value. Otherwise he's bluffing. I do not think he's sandbagging, a set or two pair.... Which is why I disagree with bart
@@KyprosEc Yeah, I think a player you know is willing and able to bluff these spots is a sometimes call. Maybe 50/50.
If I play Bart at Chaser's, I will bluff him in this spot with a missed flushed draw on the river If I have a solid table image ;)
Was I the only one convinced the villain had AdJd? (DNI to tell me about ranges)
Caller sounds like a total pothead fishy
A lot of this hand has to do with the characterization of the villain and how we do perceive him. I think the perception Bart is getting is wrong, as a player like him should not really EVER be making that bluff. Not as a good a player as he was made out to be, which is why Hero’s call probably makes sense.
Yea it is not good to bluff a missed flush draw theory wise and also he has a small pair which possibly had some SDV,V has to think Heor is betting TP at least,so kinda ambitious to try to bluff him off that
why is CO super incentivized to drive them out
Insensivized?
More people, less equity
@@tylerslenk8243 sorry spelling and fat fingers
@@impracticallyperfect8987 ok
That river bluff bet was stupid for all the reasons Bart said. I 100% agree. Can't believe that guy was a pro.
If you’re folding so easily on the river wth are you calling with?!
If you're always a station with top pair wth are your opponents betting with?
As played he could have two pair, occasional straights and a decent amount of sets
First, it’s not just top pair, it’s top-top. Second, see results of hand. When the front door flush misses and there’s basically one flopped set possible you really have to have a player specific read to justify folding a hand like this.
First, it’s not just top pair, it’s top-top. Second, see results of hand. When the front door flush misses and there’s basically one flopped set possible you really have to have a player specific read to justify folding a hand like this.
@@checkmugged "top-top" is no different than "top pair" when your opponent's value range is 2-pair plus.
River is check fold in my book. Although, if you know he bluffs missed draws your check calling is good, but without knowing that, I check fold to that bet size.
🦜
Bart: Like I said, I probably would have check folded….”
Myself: I agree, the over-bet bluff % is low, it’s something I am trying to apply to my game to not over hero calling vs river bets, holding 1 pair, it’s rare they are bluffing.
Bart: Like I said, I probably would have check folded….”
Myself: I agree, the over-bet bluff % is low, it’s something I am trying to apply to my game
not over hero calling vs river bets, holding 1 pair, it’s rare they are bluffing.
Hero played perfect. AQdd, KQ, QJdd TJdd, AXdd, 9Tdd, etc. If villain showed w other than 78ss or TQ but the winning hand like p5's, I would have put him down as a super slowplayer. He thought hero would fold AK but the time to bluff was on the turn. I'd have to know villain super well and respect him a lot to fold.
Listening to these guys makes me feel like a poker genius XD likely if villian had a straight he would have jammed after your turn bet.. Still Could of had 2 pair/set/etc. Bet/fold this river would have been optimal if sizing was proper but it was fucked at the turn card XD smh