Who was the first Link? Hylia's Chosen Hero (Legend of Zelda)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 พ.ค. 2024
- Skyward Sword mentions a "chosen hero" who fought long ago. Who was he?
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0:00 Intro
0:19 Hylia's Chosen Knight
2:07 Who was the Chosen Hero?
5:45 Causal Loop
7:08 Himekawa's Manga
7:53 The Grandfather Paradox
9:30 Time Travel in Skyward Sword
11:32 An Impossible Victory
14:58 Outro
#Zelda #LegendofZelda #SkywardSword - เกม
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I think the biggest indication that Skyward Sword's link *is* the chosen hero is Demise's surprise at seeing a human brave enough to stand up to him. If there had been a different chosen hero back in the Age of Hylia, he'd say "you remind me of him" or something, but when SS Link meets him, he's apparently the first human to stand up to him.
No he just say that all human are weak. Perhaps the hero before was more weak than Skyward Sword link and is probably the case because he didn't have the Master Sword or even the godess Sword (it was the sword of hylia) so at best he would have the hylian shield and a regular sword
Agree
@@redguy564 Well he specifically sites their tendency to flee and cower as the source of their weakness. He thinks more highly of Link (and Groose, actually) simply because they stand up to him. In fact he implies SS Link is the first human to *ever* stand up to him.
Unless the first Hero is actually the Fierce Deity who wouldn’t have been counted as a human, only reborn as one like Hylia. Therefore when Demise meets Link he truly means what he says.
@@SoaringxDragon And Ganon expressed surprise that a boy like Link could give him so much trouble in ALTTP despite canonically fighting the Hero of Time.
It’s as if the Hero of Time didn’t exist until OOT retconned it.
The zelda timeline is just a massive 4D chess board.
I'm pretty sure this was confirmed non canon since day one.
@@diegomedina9637 I was not talking about the non-canon stuff.
That's because it was never a priority and basically gets made up as the series progresses. The superfans care about this stuff much more than the devs do.
that, and the architecture connecting the games
@@Christopher-md7tf yeah, but the architecture, they don't care about the story, but they love to help us massively in creating one for ourselfs
I think when it comes to silly time stuff, the Master Sword itself is the key. The Master Sword and its user have the ability work outside of stable loops, and make changes to existing ones. Time travel without the sword is limited to paradoxical loops, but the power of the Master Sword creates new possibilities. Basically, the sword has the power to bypass paradoxes. Though, when used carelessly, it can also slinter timelines apart like in OoT. I think the strongest evidence for the Master Sword being the key to abnormal time travel is the fact that the sword is the only thing that can hurt Demise, and often the only thing that can hurt Ganons to follow. Its ability is like poison to a being who gains immortality by being timeless. The sword can cut you today, yesterday, and tomorrow at the same time, so to speak.
that would be so cool LMAO
10/10 Comment, you should write fanfiction my friend :)
This also would explain time travel in OoT. If Link uses the Master Sword to go back in time, and then go back, he appears at the point he left off in the future. But if he was sealed by the sword for 7 years, how did he also accomplish whatever he had accomplished before going back in time? For example, if Link beats the Forest Temple, then goes back in time, when he returns, he'll be back in the time after he beat the Forest Temple. But he was sealed away by the Master Sword, so how did he also beat the Forest Temple? Your explanation seems to cover that.
The master sword: slicing trough monsters before, after and now! Only 12 and three quarters of your health!
Great! If only it could cut Demise's curse.
Like others have pointed out in the comments it's very possible that since Hylia is the goddess of time she likely knew Link would eventually come about and made up those Legends and lyrics herself to give Link hints on where to go and what to do while becoming the hero of legend.
True, she would logically know every thing needed to achieve the best results possible. Down to words, expression, and body language.
...Suddenly I want to slap her.
When Fi is signing, she will say "I am guiding you from the Edge of Time" or something like that.
I was under the Impression she saw all the stuff Link would need to do, stored it and waited for Link to do his part.
Schrodinger's demon is now my favorite description of Demise.
SAME
That cat is dead. You can say whatever you want. After 5 minutes that cat is absolutely 100% dead
*Schrödinger’s demon
@@berzerkbankie1342 No
@@randomdude2026 do you live with cats? Because if you do then you know that cat is dead. Curiosity killed the cat, remember that.
I've been thinking about this whilst replaying the intro!! Skyward Sword is just the first timeframe we PLAY off... not know of! That is bloody fascinating to me! Honestly I am very unsure and your view has opened my eyes!
There's one factor not mentioned in the video but also unknown a Time Warp find my standalone comment for more info
Thank you for reminding me to finish my script on 5th dimensional temporal pockets and merging time series. I explained it before in the comments of another video on this subject. It would allow these events to occur without conflict or paradox. It just takes some insight to quantum theory and superpositioning.
As far as the story of a hero being passed down to Skyloft, Hylia could of easily just told a few humans about her pllan to a degree before sending them up.
Still love the video. Just here adding commentary.
What if time in TLOZ is actually like it is depicted in hyrule historia? If thats the Case all Events that transpire wouldnt necessarily affect the "present" our heroes come from cause the flow of time would work different then in Real Life. Another way to describe it would be that the past and present are connected with one another obviously but that they also, lets say "Walk" beside each other. That the flow of time works in a way where certain events may not have an impact on their counterpart. The time Just goes on in a straight line, just how it is depicted in Hyrule Historia. I hope that what I'm trying to say makes some kind of sense
your theory is flawed about this link being the same legendary hero seen as the goddess sword does not have memory of this link
Gues what can transcend time? THE MASTER SWORD
Theory: The Imprisoned is the reassimilation of Demise's body, his soul was sealed in the Master Sword and his hatred was reincarnated into Ganon and other villains. The Imprisoned is essentially a mindless beast all power, no finesse. It's slowly learning as it escapes each time but ultimately destroyed by the Triforce. Demise died in the past but his body reassembled itself in the future only to get destroyed once more permanently.
Yeah, I think this was supposed to be something along the lines of what the intention was supposed to be. The only issue is that they leave the master sword at the end of the game, which should be visible early on, as Zelda's crystal is.
@@Musikur Same could be said of the Tree of Life too. I do like this story a lot, but enjoying it pretty much requires the acceptance of the idea that time travel is bullshit and almost never really makes sense.
Makes sense to me
@@DevilHunter1994 So far as any of us is aware time travel is bullshit lol.
@@Musikur I like to think that Impa was somehow hiding it from them using Sheikah magic, to prevent them from learning too much too early.
Same with the Life Sapling. Hidden until Link sets things into motion. Just making sure that they happen properly.
I suppose it’s also possible that Hylia described the chosen hero to her people, in order to set the traditions in motion. Her chosen hero is Link, and she knows how things will hopefully pan out, but the people passing down the tradition don’t really know what already happened or not. Like a reverse legend.
Noww that Zelti mention the zelda manga series would anyone love to see him cover them at some point, maybe like a review of them or diffrences from the games they are based on?
Heck yeah
I read the manga in the Hyrule historia and was surprised that there wasn’t a video by zeltik on it, but now here it is.
Yeah the mangas seem so different from the game
There's one problem, manga isn't canon
No
TL:DR
Demise to the laws of time: *Looks like I'm about to break the law*
And create a Time Warp hahahahaha find my standalone comment for more info
@@ultrasquidy8243 Can't find it
All right I'll just explain on your comment.
A Time Warp is where multiple variations of the timeline can exist at the same time in the same timeline which is normally impossible
@@ultrasquidy8243 Thanks :)
Demise in his next game: "I am the architect of my own destruction."
I think you're confused. Demise is never killed in the past. He is sealed, as stated multiple times in the ending. The seal we try to maintain throughout the entire game IS Link's seal, hence it reacts to him the moment he comes down to the surface at the start. As for the Master Sword... it is either the sealing spike itself and is summoned back after Demise is crushed, OR Impa has hidden it in the temple. The pedestal itself does not appear in the past until Link has defeated Demise and Impa brings it out for Link to place the Master Sword. So, she can clearly move the pedestal. The tree is gameplay related, not really story related... HOWEVER... time shift stones DO alter the past and present, and Link uses a time shift stone to take a seedling to move it. The tree always grows, but the location is changed because of a time shift stone.
If he is never killed, then how can his malice be reborn into Ganondorf? Can't have rebirth without death.
@@J01789 He is never killed in the past. He is sealed in the past. And then he is killed in the present.
@@J01789 malice might have been freed from his body/control and reincarnated into Ganon later on. Basically, it's just the power that Demise and Ganon both hold that make them so dangerous.
Just like how Zelda's power was passed down from mother to daughter over the ages.
It's a transference of power. This series focuses a lot on the transferring of power, and Malice is probably just another version of that.
@@J01789he was killed in the present. He’s then revived in the past only to be sealed until he will be killed in the present.
@@J01789he is sealed in the sword, you can see his spirit being absorbed by the blade after the battle, but not before he curses future link and zeldas to have to face future incarnations of demise’s hate and malice
This reminds me of the legend of Artorias from the first Dark Souls. During some parts of the game you hear about Artorias being a godlike hero that single-handedly faced and defeated the Abyss in the distant past, but when you go back in time you discover that he actually fell to the Abyss and the one that actually defeated Manus was your character, the Chosen Undead.
And yet he took all the credit.
@@ironaston9858 Chosen Undead ended up an unsung hero, like Hero Shade in Twilight Princess.
@@ironaston9858 I mean you kill him and finish his job, he doesn’t exactly do it on purpose
@@ironaston9858 your character lets him take all of the credit to keep the time line from being fucked up and confusing the citizens
@@Braindamaged226 The moment you realize the Abyss Watchers wouldn't worship a big doggo if the chosen undead took all the credit :l
My interpretation of the Imprisoned/dead Demise paradox issue is that the _timeline_ isn't split, but _Demise_ is. The game states that Demise's _consciousness_ is sealed within the Master Sword, but never what happens to his body and to his demonic power. We see it disintigrate, but that could very well be imagery of it being sealed...perhaps in the sealing spike in the Sealed Grounds, at the exact same location as the gateway to Demise's boss arena.
So, my interpretation is that Demise's mind was sealed in the Master Sword, which was, of course, being hidden by Old Impa the whole time, while the Imprisoned is what remains - his mindless power and strength incarnated as a massive beast.
This make a lot more sense because then he could be just trying to get his mind back from the MasterSword. I feel like the Mastersword is the only/biggest paradox in this game.
For some reason I thought of Flash and Reverse Flash..Speed Force
The *TIME* Force lmao
This actually feels like the most likely explanation, Kudos to you friend.
That doesn't work either because Ghirahim was throughout the game, even before the Master Sword was created, trying to bring Demise back. If The Imprisoned is a mindless remnant of Demise and if Demise's mind was sealed in the Master Sword as you said, Ghirahim would have no way of reviving Demise even had he successfully captured Zelda as soon as she landed on the surface without the remains of Demise's mind in the Master Sword, which hadn't even been created yet.
Nothing about Demise's death makes sense in the current paradigm. This is why in my opinion, Skyward Sword belongs in its own endlessly repeating loop that never ends---an idea I and I'm sure many others who are aware of paradoxes had way before this video was ever made. Not just for that reason, but also because the origins of the Master Sword deviate & contradict what we were told in A Link to the Past (Japanese manual) and Twilight Princess where it was said that the Wise Men/Sages created the sword, not a previous hero.
In my opinion, there should be a previous Link who did fight Demise and seperated him from Ghirahim & his sword and fought him with a weapon that was not the Master Sword---perhaps even the Picori Blade and beat him down enough for Hylia to seal him. Demise seems too strong for Hylia to have battled & sealed. And we do know she sustained mortal injuries thanks to Demise, so an injured Hylia sealing Demise would also explain why the seal failed multiple times rather than holding him like a true seal would have done (because the divine power that was leaking from Hylia's wounds caused the seal she cast to be weaker than it otherwise would have been). The game did say that those from the surface teamed up with Hylia to battle Demise & his monsters. It's true that Demise did not mention getting beaten by a previous hero, but neither did Ganondorf in Wind Waker mention how the Link in OoT defeated him. Maybe Hylia got involved in the battle & suffered those mortal injuries as a result of her interference and as a result Demise did not think as highly of that previous Link due to the divine assistance he received from Hylia.
Anyway, I do commend you for your interpretation & ideas. It's just that Nintendo was trying to implement too many different time travel models and it just doesn't work the way they executed it.
I thought the exact same thing while watching the video. Glad to see others share this theory!
14:40 Link's face basically sums up how I felt trying to piece this together.
And mind too.
4:06 to 4:16 pretty much sums up how i felt trying to piece this together
😂 😂
True that. Even me when listening to Zelda’s explanation of Hylias plan
Apart from the life tree, Sjyward Sword can still follow the closed loop time line. Here's my theory.
Consider this, Old Impa already knows how things went on in the past and knowing this, she keeps her mouth shut about the events. The Master Sword is kept in the temple and Impa is always in the temple watching it. At any point, we can safely assume that Impa 'hid' the Master Sword from Link when he first arrived so that its presence may not reveal any 'spoliers' for Link or Fi. It could also be that Demise's souls being sealed in the sword is also related to him being sealed in the pit. The remnants of his souls is what caused him to take the form of a massive pinecone and over time the Master Sword's seal on his soul weakened. However with Link arriving with the Goddess Sword, and striking the seal, it strengthened the initial Master Sword seal each time until the Triforce wish can finally finish him off for good. Impa has some magic up her sleeves. I'm sure a simple illusion to prevent the viewing of the Master Sword in the present is possible.
"What caused him to take the form of a massive pinecone..." 😭
@@megamillion5852 That or a big-ass black avocado both serves.
@@srlopez875 not the dummy thicc avocado 💀
And that could be why he was going to the sealed temple to destroy the sword to free himself and get Zelda
I think the idea of a proto-Link like in the comic could be an answer, he was quiet what the Hylia needed, but was an inspiration as to what would become THE HERO. It was also never covered about the red Loftwing being the mount of the Hero, and the future seal for the Hylian Royal family. And the reason Demise never fought him is because he died to give Hylia time to lift the islands; in a similar way that the Link fails timeline from OOT has Gannon sealed in the sacred realm.
If you can find the manga then read it, it should answer some of your questions
I guess this makes the Hero of the Skies the first "Hero of Time."
Stop, or else we'll have another situation like the Hero of Hyrule and the New Hero of Hyrule.
@@darkduck4160
I was just making a joke
@@darkduck4160 new new hero of hyrule deluxe + luigi featuring dante from the devil may cry series.
Aha...
@@michaellangley341 and Knuckles
Here’s my attempt at an explanation lol.
When Demise is defeated in the distant past, he initiates the curse that creates every susbsequent Zelda villain. So that curse is in effect from the distant past all the way up until the present day that Link returns to, which wasn’t the case in the present day before Link went to the past, since Demise hadn’t been defeated by him yet. This would leave plenty of time for other villains to rise up thanks to the curse, and leave the world in an overall similar state to how it was before Link went to the past.
I thought you were a poke-tuber
(I am joking)
so basically, he went back in time and the butterfly effect of beating demise caused the curse of Link and Zelda being reborn again and again? i haven’t beating Skyward Sword yet lmao
So in that timeline the Imprisoned is an entirely different Demon and not Demise?
@@lohgocklp9703 yes because it is the reincarnation of demise, example: Gannon.
@SpectralStriker
Well, it would have to be another example, since all Ganons originate from OoT Ganondorf across different timelines.
My theory is that link creates the seal on demise when he defeats demise. The imprisoned is what's left after demise conscience is sealed in the master sword. So the rest of of the theory still works. As for the master sword maybe impa moved it or something idk how it got there
I think Skyward Sword - and most of the Zelda mythos - utilizes the concept of merged realities in adittion to split timelines.
One of the things that confuses people and makes them think contradictions exist when it comes to split timelines is that they tend to think in terms of pure linearity. Or, they think with the idea that alternate timelines overwrite one another, do not interact whatsoever, and must remain distinct from one another forever.
This is how I see the Zelda mythos handle timetravel:
At the decisive moments in which a entity travels to the past and makes an alteration, a reality split occurs. However, when/if that same entity returns to their own time, a merging of both realities occurs in which the denizens of the current time-period are consciously aware of both realities to a degree.
In adittion, during the time-gap between the split and the travel, the events of both timelines are mingled in the subconscious/spirit of the denizens of each respective timeline - thus creating legends and myths.
For example: the Legend of the Goddess's hero.
The beginning of Skyward Sword (before Link travels back in time) takes place in one of the aforementioned time-gaps. Two realities run parallel to one another at this point - one in which Demise has not been killed in the past (let's call this the Alpha timeline) and one in which Demise has been killed (Beta Timeline).
Because these two timelines run parallel to one another before the instance of the split's initiation (Link going back in time), the events of both realities are faintly etched into the hearts of the people- this is how the Legend of the Goddess's hero exists in the Alpha Timeline despite not physically occurring in that timeline, because it occurred in the parallel timeline.
Those events of the Beta reality DID/ARE happen/happening at the same time as at the Alpha reality.
So, now let's look at the point of initiation - where Link steps through the Gate of Time in the Alpha timeline. Link, likewise, returns through the Gate of Time. Link kills Demise in the past, thus creating a definitive split and the existence of the Beta reality (which, remember, has always existed up to the point in which Link entered the Gate of Time - the metaphysical existence of realities exists outside of their causative agents.)
However, when Link returns from the past, he does not return to the Alpha reality that he left. Nor, does he return to the Beta reality. Instead, it seems that a brand new reality has been born from the merging of both realities. In this new reality, all events of both the Alpha and Beta realities exist not only metaphysically (like during the gap) but physically as well - a Delta reality. Demise has been defeated like in the Beta timeline, but the events of the Alpha timeline also have existed. In adittion, the Master Sword and Tree that existed in the Sealed Temple throughout the events of the Beta Timeline have also been merged with the Alpha timeline for this new reality.
It seems what is chosen to physcially exist in the new reality is determined by the activity of its existence in either reality. For example, part of Skyloft being brought back down from the sky is an active event, so it is reflected in the new reality.
To reiterate, it is at the moment of RETURN from the initiation of the events (stepping into the Gate of Time) that lead to the split (Tree planted, Demise's death, Master Sword placed) that the merged reality is born. It is also only at this moment that individuals become consciously aware of the events of both realities. However, it is only those that EXPERIENCED previous events in either the Alpha or Beta realities that will remember said events. It is not as if everyone suddenly has omniscience of all events across both realities after the merging.
So, why didn't any type of "merged reality" occur when Zelda went back in time through the Gate the first time? That is simply because Zelda never RETURNED through the Gate. Unlike Link, Zelda did not return through the Gate to face a new reality in which her actions have merged with the reality that she initially went through the Gate in. Instead, Zelda seals herself in the past and rides-out time normally - specifically, she does this before Link initiates the split (Demise's death) as well. Basically, she just goes through the Alpha reality normally, but further back.
So, that makes sense, but Impa DOES use the Gate to go back to her time. How come nothing changes then? This is because Impa travels FORWARD in time from her initial reality, not backwards. Thus, she cannot change any events in the first place. Impa's journey is entirely "linear" in terms of time-travel. And, once back in her own time, she does not use her knowledge of the future to attempt to alter events from her original time, as seen by the fact that she remains in the temple and is silent/secretive in moments when she could have divulged future events later on.
Whether Impa was fully in control of her secretiveness after her events in the future, or if it just "worked out" is debatable. But that gets into "Fate Theory" and concepts of causality and determinism would make this exploration even more complex, so I'm not gonna talk about that.
As a side-note, Impa's use of time-travel in Skyward Sword is the same that is used in Ocarina of Time - exclusively going forward in time and then returning to an original point in time in the past. However, unlike Impa in Skyward Sword, Young Link in Ocarina of Time uses his future knowledge after returning to his own time to get Ganondorf imprisoned and executed (thus the timeline split to Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess is born). But, that's a different story. Just wanted to note the similarities.
Anyway, that's basically how I see the time travel working in Skyward Sword. This is the only way it makes sense in a logical perspective without any lingering anomalies or contradictions as far as I can see.
TLDR: Zelda mythos uses split timelines, parallel timelines, and merged timelines.
Addendum:
I also want to add that the Sailcloth, Zelda's bracelet, and the Song of Storms are not the same time-phenomenon as claimed in the video.
The Sailcloth is Zelda taking knowledge from a legend to create an item that is given to Link, and then becomes part of the aforementioned legend. This is only a timeloop if the timeline is looked at linearly and not in a parallel fashion.
The bracelet also isn't a timeloop. The bracelet is created and then progresses from past to present to future completely normally and linearly. This is basically the same concept as the way Zelda passed through time while sealed.
The Song of Storms is the only Time-Loop scenario in which both parties require knowledge/items of the other in order to create the knowledge/items. In these instances, the only explanation is spontaneous reality of the scenario through time stabily looping upon itself.
Like a River that has been diverted into a loop that flows into itself before continuing on down stream - when was the loop of water created? How long has it been flowing this way? It doesn't matter, the fact is that the loop of flow exists and the river continues to flow onward.
That was really interesting!!! If I can ask, how did you come to this conclusion? I've not seen a time travel theory be explained so thoroughly and so well thought out.
@@TriforceKeybladeSkykid I came to this conclusion by thinking about it. A disappointing answer, I know lol.
I have always been very intrigued by deep time-travel theory and have studied a lot of different science fictions that explore it.
@@ArcadeTheatre First) lmao. I walked right into that one, didn't i?
Second) I can get that. I'm the same, but with magic in general. Just, probably to a lesser degree.
This was how I felt!! I did not have the words to explain it, and you absolutely argued it better than I ever could. And you brought up things I never considered!! Thank you for sharing this!!!
You are without a doubt in my mind the smartest person I've ever had the pleasure of reading an essay from. I will forever remember your explanation of time travel for the Zelda series. Thank you for this and well done on its writing. Easy to read and understand
Maybe Hylia, being the Goddess of Time, and thus, having crontol over time itself, simply set up a shitton of failsafes to make sure her plan worked regardless of paradoxes.
Honestly that makes the most sense. Having her influence being all over to ensure that no matter what time flows smoothly. Having a literal goddess of time in play means we can't look at things like we normally would.
Also, she could have planted the sailcloth as a legend before link started time traveling.
@@GreenBlueWalkthrough there were lyrics in the Ballad of the Goddess (passed down for millennia) that were clues for present Link to access the pedestal that shoots the light beam into the Thunderhead towards the Isle of Songs.
This is Doctor Who like tactics.
If you haven't played the Legacy of Kain series, I would recommend them highly. They have, by far, the best time-travel story I've ever seen, and easily my favourite method of explaining the effect of historical changes. In LoK time is like a river, and alterations to the past are like throwing a stone into it. You can't stop the flow of water, it just moves around it, changing the course of events to fit the change that was made. Sometimes drastic changes happen, and characters return to a world vastly different from the one they left; other times only small changes are necessary to prevent the alteration of people's fates.
Such a model of time travel would explain a lot of the problems in SS. The changes happened, but other things changed just enough to maintain the series of events leading up to the start of the game, so as not to create a grandfather-paradox.
@@bombkangaroo I love that series and the ways it plays with both time and space as things to be manipulated is amazing! It really deals with things like inevitability and self fulfilling prophecies especially in a world where time and dimension travel exist.
If there was a Link in the past that fought Demise, doesn’t necessarily mean that he’d be the “chosen hero”, it could be that Hylia admired his spirit and chose to pass it down until a chosen hero is selected. I’ve been mouth watering at a SS prequel where a random knight called Link helps Hylia around Hyrule and prepare for the war against Demise. The game ends with Link staying behind while Hylia lifts Skyloft to the sky and it ends in a kind of Halo Reach style. You are left behind and you fight off either hordes or Demise himself and end up dying. The last cut scene is Hylia stopping Demise and creating the chosen hero spirit and the goddess spirit. That would male an amazing unique Zelda game!
At this point it's just headcanon now without any evidence.
In Majora's Mask, when you reforge the kokiri sword into the guilded sword, you are told by the smith that it now has power beyond time and space, and in Ocorina of Time, you are told that he who controls the Master Sword and Ocarina together becomes the master of time. It seems that there are many items and people who are too powerful to be influinced by time travel physics.
Would explain how the bank in that game works. You store rupees in the future but when you go back to the past, your future rupees are there.
@@dekoldrick naw, that one is a mark on you that the blind guy is able to read your "current" bankroll, link is just taking his "total" back with him via the mark left on him by the blind banker, thus having money he didn't deposit in that timeline.... kinda straight up stealing honestly.
Not to mention that Zelda mentions the "Goddess of Time" watching over and protecting Link in Majora's Mask.
The goddess of time is only ever mentioned in Majora's Mask, and she seems to be worshipped by people of Termina (with Tatl praying to her on the last day, when everything seems to be doomed for example). It is never explicitly mentioned who the goddess of time is, some people theorized that it is a goddess only relevant to Termina (being one of the gods who abandoned Termina according to Kaepora Gaebora), but that doesn't make sense considering that princess Zelda is the first one to mention her, and she only lives in Hyrule. Some people believed she is Nayru, considering her role in creation was to create law, order, and magic on Hyrule, tying her to physics laws and more immaterial things (while Din is tied to physical matter and Farore to life and creatures). That was a popular theory back then, considering the only goddesses we knew about were the three golden goddesses.
With the addition of Hylia, some people started to speculate that the goddess of time would be Hylia, and that would make sense considering the Royal Family of Hyrule and princess Zelda are keeping the Ocarina of Time, and also considering that the sacred sword created by Goddess Hylia is sealed in the Temple of Time.
If Hylia really is the goddess of time mentioned in Majora's Mask, then certain things acquiring a power to transcend time when in contact with Zelda or Link, her chosen hero, isn't really that weird.
@@kekitus490 Maybe, but the Ocarina of Time was seemingly created long after the creation of Hyule, as it only appears in OoT and MM. The Goddess Harp is Hylia's relic, and she (Zelda) carries it in SS, OoT and HW (I know its non cannon, but it's usage is consistant). Also powerful characters such as Ganon and the four giants seem unaffected as well.
There's also a good chance that the weird pocket dimension Demise makes for him and Link to fight in could be screwing with things too. The dude made a demiplane on a whim for a sword fight, it stands to reason he may have not only made that a location out of space, but also out of time.
I have a different theory about the first Link. He's not the first hero, rather he's the hero base. A soul worthy enough to be considered by the goddess to be use as a weapon. But Helia fell in love with him and grant him a form of immortality.
That’s pretty much how it went. He didn’t defeat Demise after all, Hylia did.
Okay, just throwing this at the wall to see if it sticks: Since all Links share a soul, they are in essence the same person. Couldn't that be why Sky-Link is referred to as the Goddess' Chosen Hero/Knight, since dragons and whatnot are semi-eternal and maybe somehow... can feel and recognise that Sky-Link possess the same soul as the ancient Hero?
makes sense
As I'm currently playing the remaster, they don't recognize him as the same ancient hero. In fact, a few of them are surprised when they discover that Link is in fact the one that the Goddess chose. The Water Dragon Faron even demands that he prove he's actually who he says he is.
@@wintersandal8548 Well, that clears that up. :) It's been a very long time since I played SS, but I suppose that disproves the entire theory then?
@@hallonkatt Yeah probably. I did some parts of the remastered version recently and Faron kept saying how they didn't think that the Goddess's chosen hero would just be a boy, so they test Link and see if Hylia really chose the right person
The Links only share the reincarnation, their personalities and memories are different, making them distinct different characters, just like Zelda and the Evils of Hyrule (except Ganondorf in the timeline split), Skyward Sword Link is implied to have feelings for Link but Twilight Princess Link feels no close connection to Zelda at all, in fact, TP Link goes back to Ordon after everything is said and done since he has no reason to stay in Hyrule Town, it’s been Semi confirmed that the Ancient Warrior in TP is Majoras Mask Link who never left Termina so if that’s true then it’s confirmed that they don’t even share the same soul and that it’s part of Demise‘a curse for 3 essential characters with similar attributes to appear and fight each other
I just went with the simple idea that we slew the true Demise, leaving his mindless empty husk that we fight throughout the game.
I like to think, that the triforce, and the master sword, are "timeless", so what happened with them, will just happen no matter what. An explanation to the "ancient hero" timeloop, is that link is a reincarnation of another hero, but he needed to be tested again, because he lost his memories, to see if he's still worthy. Kinda like all links need to get the master sword.
How about this. When you kill Demise in the past, you kill his consciousness, only really slowing him down. When you wish upon the Triforce you kill what's left of him. If you want to you could say that over the many years in-between Demise has regenerated his mind, but that the Wish destroys him compleyely.
Yeah, I think this was supposed to be something along the lines of what the intention was supposed to be. The only issue is that they leave the master sword at the end of the game, which should be visible early on, as Zelda's crystal is.
I'm starting to think Zelda's law of time is severely different to our understanding of time.
Zelda is the goddess of time, she can do what she wants.
Zelda time travel functions differently in every appearance sometimes two different ways are used in the same story it’s best not thought about too hard because I severely doubt the writers thought too hard about potential paradoxes and focused more on making the game fun
@@triforceofcourage100 If you accept that closed timeloops are impossible then it is easy to solve every time travel situation in Zelda games.
It makes sense. I mean, there's a literal goddess of time that oversees the flow of time in Zelda.
@@dustinakadustin False Statement.
Fun fact! Akira Himekawa is the pen name of a duo of women artists! And they have both declined to reveal their names, using the *individual* pen names of Nagano S and Honda A. Incredible. I love that for them. I love that Nintendo pays them for their very fun fan fiction comics 💕 (their doujinshi, if I'm remembering the term correctly)
So the manga was not canon?
Before the final boss fight, Demise does invite Link to follow him to an unspecified place to do battle. If that final battle, where Link kills Demise, takes place somewhere "outside" time (as Demise has apparently conquered time itself) then that might explain why Demise's death doesn't have an effect upon Link's present.
Don't ask me how though I'm just thinking out loud 🤣
Honestly, from playing Skyward Sword I always thought it was pretty clear cut that Skyloft Link was original hero through time travel shenanigans.
Even replaying HD now, the references to the chosen hero feel explicitly like foreshadowing to that fact.
That doesn't make sense to me because we see Demise is sealed in the past, which is why Girahim needs Zelda's soul to reawaken him in the past. So obviously the war with him and the goddess already happened which means humans were already sent to the sky and wouldn't be around to see Skyloft link fight Demise
@@donweiss2326 They wouldn't have been on the surface to see a previous Link fight either. The only way I can see a pre-SS Link is if she personally trained him while keeping his existence a secret. If so, he might have travelled to Skyloft upon her divine death, or he may have been slain in battle and someone else told them of his deeds.
@@JariDawnchild I Believe The Fierce Deity Was The FIRST Link And The Original And Skyward Sword Links Are His Descendants And The Double Helix Blade Is Fi's Predecessor
In some of the legendary versions of certain Zelda mangas, they have interviews at the ends of the books. The interviews are usually with someone who works in Nintendo (like Aonuma) and Akira Himewaka (aka, the two illustrators/writers that make the mangas). They often talk about the bonus stories that they are tasked with creating for certain games, and that sometimes they don't even know what the game is like when creating these stories. I read that the concept and design for the Chosen Hero featured in Hyrule Historia was actually an altered design of the Twilight Princess Link. Usually the mangas change certain aspects of the game they are based on, or add characters that never existed in the game, such as Ghanti from the A Link to the Past manga. Because of these things that happen in the process of making these mangas, it makes sense why they are considered non-canon.
Yes just look up for example on the mangas from oot while have cool things , others just add cuz you cleary can see was made like that to not lacks in material since games is a different media.
These manga are quite literally adaptations of the stories from each game. They're follow a separate canon. It's like the difference between the Lord of the Rings books and movies; they don't fit together, but rather complement each other.
I personally really enjoy them, as I see them as a way to make the rather simple narrative of the series in general more interesting, as characters are given way more depth and enough time to develop; this is especially true with Twilight Princess, the story is so much better in the manga, no kidding. With Link, for example, they manage to turn a mute plank of wood into a genuinely interesting protagonist with a cool backstory and a nice arc. They make the game's already great moments into fantastic ones, and add some really powerful and touching new ones too.
In general the themes from the original story are so much stronger in the manga, it really is just so amazing. They even scratch that Zelda timeline theorist itch with some really tasteful fanservice multiple times. STRONG recommend.
@@hyruleguy9569 I haven't read all the manga stories out there but I'm on volume 8 of the TP manga and I cannot believe how invested I am in it and how good it is! I really wish the older manga's they did had the same treatment by giving each game it's own manga series instead of a one off (or double pack with OoT) adaptation. It's as you said, the story and characters are really being fleshed out and it gives blank characters great personalities and arcs. I am in particular a major fan of how much more depth Ilia has gotten in the manga than the game; and the same for every other character. I do wish the characters like Ashei, Auru and Telma had more, but I am still very much enjoying it than the game, which was like nothing.
@@hyruleguy9569 I absolutely agree! The writers do a fantastic job of smoothly adapting the games into mangas. I think the Twilight Princess series is so far the longest, which is nice because aspects of the story and characters can be expanded on. Another thing I forgot to mention is how some ideas from the mangas influence the developers at Nintendo, like the flying race from the Ocarina of Time bonus story being the inspiration for the Rito.
@@gabrielhenriquesilva2014 True, for the games that don't really have a companion for Link to interact with, the writers just create a new character for the manga. Their bonus stories are very interesting too.
I tend to always like your videos but I just stumbled across this one for the first time. It's my favorite. You bring up a lot of good and interesting info that really makes me think. Good on you!
One thing i also noticed: Demise says he's waited eons for his freedom, he can spare a few more moments to fight Link.
But Impa says that the past is a land where the wounds from Demises battle with Hylia have not yet healed. Meaning Hylia had recently sealed Demise in the sealed grounds, so i don't even think he should be ''the Imprisoned'' yet, let alone wait eons lol
Eons is not an official time measurement. The definition of an eon is in fact "a period of time often exaggerated for humorous or rhetorical effect"
Time travel the most confusing thing ever made
I know, right?
Yep
You can say that again.
Yes but 'when' was it created as a concept?
@@linkmaster253 probably by a caveman thousands of years ago
My personal headcanon for stories that involve time travel is that any impact on the space-time continuum causes ripple effects. Some actions are akin to a stone skipping across the waters, others are just like... throwing that stone directly into the water, splashing and making waves across the flow of time and space.
Move a crumb in the past
Now in the present: DaBama
My personal headcanon for paradoxes like the grandfather paradox is that there are two timelines, alternating. The first timeline in which you exist and go back in time to kill your grandfather, which creates the second timeline. In the second timeline you don't exist and therefore cannot kill your grandfather, so it switches back to the first timeline. Very confusing, but it explains one way the paradox can exist without splitting timelines (it instead has two alternating versions of history in one timeline.)
Skipping stones still make ripples
@@dustnstuff7729 Not if you skip the stone incorrectly
Deep
Zeltik: The Hyrule Historian manga doesn't make sense.
Also Zeltik: The theory that Link is the first hero doesn't make sense either.
Me: WhAT aM I SupPosE to bEliVe!?
Though seriously, this was a fun analysis of the time travel in the game. I learned a lot! Thanks Zeltik.
Thanks for talking about this! I just finished my first playthrough of Skyward Sword yesterday and those two conflicting time travel principles were driving me crazy! xD
That was my thinking, except no one could have been around to pass down the legend in Skyloft. The only thing I can think of is Hylia spoke of a hero to come and the story got altered through time. As for the inconsistency in the time travel shenanigans, it's definitely confusing to think about. I could probably think of something, but it would be a mess and take forever to try and sort out.
Maybe Impa did it somehow. Link didn't even use the sailcloth during his final fight, there's no way to spread that legend even if there was someone around :P
That's what I was thinking while watching this.
Hylia told a story of a Hero who she gave a sailcloth to, so that Link can travel to the surface one day.
That was my thinking. The time they go to in the Time Gate is established to be at least a few centuries after the humans were sent to the sky. So no one could have spread the legend. And it's not like Link, Zelda, and Groose were like, "Hey! Let's go up to Skyloft real quick before we go back to the present to tell our ancestors about how cool we just were!" At the point they were all at in their character arcs, they just wouldn't do that.
But even if Hylia spoke of a hero and the legend takes of from there, what if the people of Skyloft never thought of creating a Ceremony that way? That seems as something too specific and too important to be left to chance. So, the only explanation I can think of is Hylia implementing the Ceremony herself. She could have instructed the people she sent to the sky to perform that ritual specifically with a sailcloth, because she knows one day Link will need it to go down. I guess along with the instructions she told them of the chosen hero, and across the centuries that becomes a legend.
While i can see SS link being the "first link", i had a personal pet theory that link himself reincarnates over and over because he used to be the fierce deity. Remember there was a whole era before SS where there was an entire war just to seal up demise the first time, "a war on a scale of which would never be seen again". I like to think that hylia wasnt the only god fighting demise but also the fierce deity who at some point was defeated and entered a mortal reincarnation cycle exactly like demise and hylia, thus becoming SS link. Could well have been the moment were hylia went "ok we're kinda screwed now, get the people and the triforce out of here". Could explain why link looks EXACTLY like him and also adds more to why the 3 triforce pieces keep returning to only these 3 characters, because they all used to have divine forms
Yes, I wrote a fanfiction with more or less this exact core story lol. With Hylia being the protective goddess of Hyrule, Kishin (= Fierce Deity in japanese) of Termina, they met in Hyrule, became friends. Kishin helped Hylia in fighting off evil, and a few centuries later, died after sealing Demise in Hylia's trap.
Though I don't connect them and Demise to the Triforce yet. The three pieces haven't been bound to anyone back then. In SS, Link collects all three pieces all the same. The Triforce only splitted up when Ganondorf touched it waaay down the time line in OoT. Plus, I don't see Gdorf as reincarnation of Demise himself. He himself states a "reincarnation of his hatred" (or smth?) would come over Hylians, so it's more like Gdorf (first a righteous king, wanting only the best for his people) was influenced by an evil spirit. More or less, any big boss is such a reincarnation of Demise's hatred.
At least that's how I wanna see it lol
Zelda has links to Buddhism. Reincarnation is Hindu. Rebirth is Buddhist. It’s not the same hero reincarnating. It is the “spirit” that is reborn.
That would also be cool because hylia aka Zelda are divine and demise aka ganadorf has divine levels of strength so it would be unfair for link to be the only mortal
@@Subscribe_to_me_now Ganondorf is not Demise. And his power comes from Dun Dun Dun, the Triforce of Power.
@@Subscribe_to_me_now Also, All Zeldas are mortal…we’re you paying attention. It’s a bloodline.
Nice theory and exploration of some of SS's time paradoxes. Although the concept of an original ancient hero is still appealing, SS Link being the first hero is a very satisfying idea and makes a lot of sense in the story.
Some of the paradoxes might be explainable due to the fact Hylia orchestrated many of the events, as fate is a major theme in the game and Hylia herself seems to be a being that exists outside of time.
I like how the time stones work. Anything that moves in the past, while the stones are activated, ends up in that spot when deactivated.
Sometimes, canon contradicts itself... you just gotta roll with it. When that happens, you can just pick your favorite pieces and keep those.
Elder Scrolls lore be like:
@@soupeverywhere9565 There are SO many fandoms like this... sighhh
It reminded me of time travel in dragon ball super lol
Who would’ve passed on the story of Link defeating Demise when all humans were sent above the clouds by Hylia in the past….unless it was the non-humans but then how would the people of Skyloft know this legend….
This is the biggest problem with the theory. I guess there’s two options: Hylia herself told them the story before sending them to the sky, because she needs to make sure Link gets the sailcloth one day. She could have even told them how to do the ceremony and all that. Across the centuries the story of a hero turns into a legend and that’s why people in Skyloft believe it happened long ago instead of it being a prophecy. The other option, more in line with this video, is that once Links accomplishes everything in the game, someone speaks about him in the past and that story somehow gets to Skyloft. The only option I can think of is Lanayru, whom Link actually meets and helps in the past. He could have told the other dragons and Levias about Link, and we know Levias was in contact with Skyloft, as the people there know and even interacted with him, so at some point he could have told them about the hero, or they hear him sing about the hero.
@@davidmedina8136 wow I didn’t even think of the dragons and Levias being involved, interesting possibilities!
This hurts my head! Definitely well thought out and said tho! I love your videos!
It’s about time someone talked about this! Nice job
Theory: Could the Imprisoned be some remains of Demise left behind that built up over the centuries (like how malice builds up over time)
The Imprisoned is Demise. But Hylia's seal, still in his forehead, stops him regaining his true form. Hence why when Ghirahim resurrects him he needs the soul of the goddess, to truly break and remove the seal
I just assume that due to conquering time Demise exist at literally every single point in time.
No, because we see The Imprisoned in the same form in the ancient past as we do in the first battle against it.
Eiji Aonuma should get on Hot Ones and then when he's dying from the heat they should ask him if certain things are canonical or not that have never been confirmed or deconfirmed ahaha. "Alright we have a list of lore that fans have been wondering about, we're gonna go through and you just tell me if it is canonical or not" lmao
“Was Majora’s Mask just a dream or is Termina a tangible place?”
(dies)
Is links mum in oot midos house
How tight was Ruto’s fishing hole?
I would love to see someone who needs a translator on the show. They're just sitting there choking back tears while their translator desperately tries to articulate what they're sputtering about while in the grips of da bomb. Highly doubt anyone from Japan would touch the show, much less Aonuma himself but god it'd be great to see!
@@DCBiscuit terrible I love it haha
This is a great explanation I never purged it together like that before but it makes so much more sense than the manga
One thing that may explain the Master Sword and life tree fruit is the fact that both were previously effected by time shifting. The fully matured Master Sword is shown to turn time on itself to repair any damage and transport the user through time, and the seed that grows the tree went through areas effected by time shift crystals. This may have caused them to be free of any kind of loop that would have existed for them because they are infused/ exposed to time altering effects
"The Chosen Hero" could just mean Link's eternal soul or the Soul of the chosen hero
I agree
skyward sword link IS the chosen hero. he IS him.
@@mailliw94 Every Link is being called chosen hero of their time.
I knew link should’ve just destroyed the gate of time after his wish
Haha love your videos
@@hyakinthoskouros4650 thanks!
@@ZorLink21 no probs!
I was amazed by this theory, and I especially liked when he mentioned that he would hear a legend about himself
I know I'm a lotta bit late, but I have two theories that would make everything make sense. The imprisoned one is Demise, but a reincarnation, as his curse. That's the simplest answer. Or, the imprisoned one is still Demise, but a bit of his power was left. Both leave the legend of Hylias chosen hero to be true, while still making sense
Everyone forgets one stupidly important fact: Zelda, the Goddess Hylia, is the Goddess of _Time._ Everyone attempts to slap the index finger of *Logic* on something that has been manipulated & ultimately controlled by a being that is, at their core, *divine therefore illogical.*
This is the point I was gonna bring up. What we're seeing is a battle between two beings that exist at least partially outside of time in a game of 4D chess
No, she isn't. She is never stated to be the goddess of time, and even if she were, that would be contradicted by the existence of another goddess of time, who is only referred to as _the_ goddess of time, and who is mentioned by both Zelda and Tatl (a Terminian fairy that knows nothing of Hyrule) in Majora's Mask.
@@matthewmuir8884 Hylia is loosely suggested to be the Goddess of Time, and since Zelda is a reincarnation of Hylia, she is also the reincarnation of the Goddess of Time.
@@matthewmuir8884 termina existed only as long as the game took place, no joke.
Could someone please tell where it is stated or implied that Hylia is the goddess of time? I would just like to know when it is brought up.
My Theory is the Fierce Deity is link in his “God” form. Just like how Hylia was reincarnated into Zelda and how Demise was reincarnated into Ganondorf/Ganon, The Fierce Deity was reincarnated into link.
That's actually really interesting to think about. Imagine a Zelda game where Hylia and Fierce Diety Link fight Demise, that would be neat.
yea i wish we had more backstory about fierce diety rather than it being only in majoras mask
But then why would the Fierce Deity be described as potentially more terrible than Majora? That game implies that the Fierce Deity is an evil, or at least highly violent force.
@@danielle5160 well best guess is that it is just more capable in fights and probably is more violent, probably as we see from most games involving link that it was probably extremely powerful and scared off others from their battle ability. So it may not even be evil it could just be an entity that just seems that way
@@danielle5160 well that’s what the moon children say and what majora says. The moon children are probably related to majora and they are children so they would think the fierce deity is the bad guy. Also majora acts like a child so they would think they are the good guy and fierce deity is the bad guy.
Been playing LoZ games for 25 years and this video single handedly made the entire series make sense! 👍
Fi mentions an ancient warrior in one of her hints, who battled against Bokoblins. That to me sounds like a hero. This is what she says:
"In ancient times, a *great warrior*
devised a strategy to collect lots of arrows. Do you know it, Master?
The warrior took out his Wooden
Shield and approached the Bokoblin fort.
He hid behind his shield as the
Bokoblins rained arrows down on him. He then retreated out of range. Many arrows were stuck in his Wooden Shield. All he needed to do then was pull them out and fire them back at his enemies with his bow.
You could use a Wooden Shield to
employ this same strategy, Master. However, doing so will damage your shield, so pay attention to your shield gauge."
My brain hurts. But also Zeltik’s soothing voice made it all make sense
Zeltik: I'm about to make mashed potatoes out of your brain.
My brain: ...
You must struggle to tie your shoes , yes?
Maybe adding to theory that time works weirdly for Demise is the fact that he comments to Link that he’s waited eons for his resurrection, despite the fact that he is fought in the past where he was only recently sealed. Either that or it’s more of the writers not really thinking about time travel
Given that the Master Sword is a key to time travel in one way or another, its likely that it is one of the few tools capable of permanently ending Demise.
Demise conquered time itself, so if you want to defeat him, you have to defeat him at every possible significant point, with those being the Imprisoned being wished away by the triforce and with demise getting beaten by link with the master sword.
I always wrote off the life tree as a plot hole because it is a different type of time travel, and it makes even less sense because what Groose says makes it seem like it just appeared. [10:39]
But, now I realise that the same thing happened with beating Demise and putting away the master sword
its because time was split, and is re converging, and Groose is seeing that convergence happen and thinking that the tree just appears, becuase his mind can't process that that is what happened. that's my theory anyways.
The life tree was moved due to a time shift stone... a mechanic that does change things in time. The tree always grew. It's just that the location was changed due to Link using a time shift stone, hence it's not a plot hole. Also, Impa can move the pedestal of the sword. The pedestal isn't there in the past until after Demise is defeated and Impa brings it out for Link to place the sword there, so it's not just permanently cemented there. The seal we're trying to maintain throughout the game is the seal created by Link in the past. It's why it always reacts when Link is nearby, including at the start of the game when he first reaches the surface.
While listening to the end of this I had the thought that what if the Imprisoned is Demise's first attempt at reincarnation but with his soul sealed by the Goddess's power (the Mastersword) it couldn't be fully realized and was a mindless beast? And that is why you have to beat it in the present and the past?
Sounds a lot like Calamity Demise
But then, where is the Mastersword in the present when Link visits the sealed temple. It is nowhere to be seen.
The problem with that is that it's the Imprisoned who emerges in the past and consumes Zelda's spirit, only to transform back into Demise's humanoid body. So the imprisoned IS Demise. Not the first incarnation of his curse.
@@halyoalex8942 ah but that is why I specified the Goddess's power, not just the Master Sword. Demise's soul was first by Goddess Hylia, and the Imprisoned is just an incarnation of of his anger and fury without control, a physical remnant searching for something to make it whole.
@@dkunk7517
Too bad when link wishes for demise to be destroyed (fi says demise specifically) the imprisoned was killed
And ghira states his master was destroyed before going through the gate
So yeaaah...the imprisoned is demise
Thanks for explaining. The ending left me so confused because its a literal impossibility
Probably one of my favourite video game theories.
Ever
A little thing to help support this theory, if the manga says that the first chosen hero wielded the master sword, how would that make sense if it wasn't skyward sword link, since we're the ones that forge the sword from the goddess sword
The manga is not canon, this has been stated several times throughout the video and alternative sources. Like all other Zelda manga, it's a neat adaptation of a great story, that has 0 effect on the "real" timeline.
The first hero of time has to be Skyward swords' Link. Would make sense to me considering no matter what timeline you play in it all started with that link anyhow.
Considering that Hylia sets up trials for both SS Link and Zelda to complete, it could be that the first Hero did wield the Master Sword and Hylia simply turned it into the goddess sword for Link to reforge it to prove his worthiness
@@fuckingidiot7428 that's honestly what I was thinking, or that the Master Sword lost some of its power in the first fight against Demise...Wouldn't be the first time the Master Sword has lost power 🤷♀️
@@fuckingidiot7428 The master sword has 3 sacred flames embued into it, there's no way Hylia could undo that. The most likely answer is that Hylia was completely caught by surprise and had no plan and no master sword for the past hero to use. Not to mention, no qualifications to use the triforce.
Just installing the HD game (never played it before) so ima come back for this one
Edit: ITS FUCKING AWESOME! Been playing it all day today (like 9 hours)
have fun!
You’ll love it (hopefully). It’s my favorite LOZ game.
@@corruptedplayer Thank u! Heard its great
@@chaos6251 Played botw for a bit to long now and its probably my favorite game, and after watching Zeltik I really want to play every game but they're expensive as sh*t. Probably a good reason though.
@@awesomepingu8350 pssst... dolphin emulator...
Excellent theory. You did a great job on this one.
I recently realized that the Chosen Hero of the ancient past was in fact Link going back in time to fight Demise on my most recent playthrough. I'm glad to see the contradictory use of time travel between the Tree of Life, the amber seal and Impa's bracelet get acknowledged, I also recently realized that too and it bothered me to no end.
The only problem with this video, and the reason it is redundant, is that Zelda later mentions that there was no original chosen hero, and it was link all along. It is mentioned at the end of the game that the link you play as, was the chosen hero from the time of goddess hylia.
Uh, i actualy finished the game 3 hours ago (so my memories are still fresh) and where do Zelda mention that ?
When is it mentioned like that? It’s very much implied and I do believe that’s what they intended, but I can’t remember it being mentioned that explicitly.
1 massive flaw in this theory, there were no humans left on the surface other than impa and its confirmed in game that she never left zelda's side. The hero has to exist before skyloft is raised to the sky.
I thought skyloft was created to escape the threat of demise? Why take the hero away from the enemy? Honest question, haven't played the game. Is demise sealed before Hylia evacuates skyloft?
@@liliespetals19 skyloft was created to escape the monsters that still served demise. Demise was sealed but hylia couldn't use the triforce to destroy him. So hylia created skyloft as a place to protect the hylians, the triforce and the goddess sword till she could be reborn as zelda and able to use the triforce.
Biggest problem with this theory indeed. Maybe Hylia herself told that story before sending them to the sky, to make sure Link gets the sailcloth one day. Otherwise, there’s no way for the story to get up to Skyloft at that point in time, unless maybe through Lanayru and Levias.
i think it makes sense to say that Demise is a time paradox itself. The master sword is the key for Time and maybe the regulator of it, so beeing it the only weapon able to defeat Demise means like correcting the Time Paradoxon with the Time Master Key. The reincarnation of Demise in the form of Ganondorf is proof of his time-confusion existence which lead into the three timelines in the future. Schroedingers Demise, he is alvie and defeated in the past.
Yeah, I’d been wondering about the manga’s interpretation of the first chosen hero. This video was a fascinating watch...
14:39 But then I saw that classic look on Link’s face, cracked up, and lost it all over again like I did the first time I played Skyward Sword in the Wii. XD
the tree is necessary for the loop, so rather then 2 or 3 forms of time travel I believe there is only one, the time shift stones. I think they are shrodinger's cat like where the tree and master sword both exist and don't at the same time, just shifting to the other side of the coin when the steps for their existence is fulfilled. That or old Impa used sheika magic to trick Link.
Think on this...THIS is why link is not affected or changed during the time shift stones effects...
He is present, as he is, in both periods of time-s.
I quite like this way of thinking because it would explain why items (master sword/tree of life) function differently than sentient beings (demise, link, Zelda, Impa). We see through link interacting with the time stones that they don’t actually affect him despite affecting the items around him, so it makes sense that Zelda/demise can exist in past and present simultaneously; they are independent from each other in the sense that one doesn’t “trigger” the other to exist on the flipside of time the same way items do; they both exist. This actually ties in the narrative of link being the hero the game speaks of in the beginning of the game; he was destined to become the hero, just as Zelda was destined to seal herself, and as Impa was destined to wait in the past after demise was defeated there (also, the legend told on skyloft could be a prophecy told by Hylia anyway). Otherwise, the events we see in the present would not be presented to us in the way they are. Almost makes the game seem existential in a way.
The more I think about it, the more I realize that having items function by different rules (the master sword “shifting to the other side of the coin” once placed, same with the tree of life) is the only way for time stones/travel as a concept to make sense within the context of the game. The only other options are time stones change nothing at all (defeating the whole purpose of them) or changing everything in its range, leaving us with paradoxes.
I doubt the devs expected us to think about it so hard, but regardless props to them for writing a better story than people give the game credit for.
Except that doesn’t make sense when you take into account everything in the video. The song of storms though not having an origin point does not disappear from time during the two point of Link playing it and learning it. It always exists. The same for Impa’s bracelet she gets from Zelda.
However the same cannot be said for the Life Tree and Master Sword since they don’t already appear in the present even before the point of Link going back in time to perform the actions which make them possible. And it can’t be Impa hiding them with sheika magic since you can physically walk through where the life tree is supposed to be. Unless Impa has the power of a goddess or something and is able to hide things in a different space/dimension I just don’t think that’s possible and why it’s a plot hole.
Then finally about the legend itself. Link travels to a point into the past to fight and defeat Demise during a time when skyloft is in the air, so then how exactly could the humans of skyloft heard the legend if there’s no one to tell them about the sail cloth? No one would have been around to see him that could have been able to get the legend back to skyloft. So therefore he can’t be the first hero.
@@SoaringxDragon don’t time stone rules kinda explain your first two paragraphs though? It’s not like anything Link is wearing is affected by one when he strikes it. Going by that framework, it makes sense that the Master Sword and Tree of Life “shift to the other side of the coin” while Impa always had the bracelet in the present: presumably she’s been wearing it this whole time, or at least had it in her possession. As I mentioned in my other comment, it’s pretty clear in the game that time works differently for objects and people with time stones, and applying those rules to time travel seems to explain these inconsistencies as well.
As for the question of how the skyloft people know of the legend, there’s two plausible options that have been discussed elsewhere: one, Impa somehow got the information to skyloft. This is probably the most unlikely option, but the game doesn’t confirm that there’s a cloud barrier yet, so it’s theoretically possible. The more likely answer is Hylia herself spoke of the hero/legend to the people, sailcloth and all lol. Thus it’s not a legend being fulfilled through link, but more of a prophecy. Of course, it’s a little weird that this means hylia had to predict that demise would have to be defeated for good in the past, but as a goddess she could have that foresight. I actually think it’s a pretty cool detail honestly.
@@ryanprusak8524 even then it still wouldn’t make any sense. When a time stone is put into affect it’s not just items which are affected: enemies such as the flowers and mobins as well as the environment all change in accordance to how time travel works in OoT with fast forwarding and reversing which is why things happen as they do such as moblins dying when they go past the barrier limit of the time stone or the robot things and technology shutting down. The only inconsistency is Link. For whatever he does to affect the future or past as it does with the tree or master sword he would have to be creating an alternate timeline each time.
If anyone’s played Bioshock infinite the time stones would be similar to the environmental tears and the changes Link makes would be when Booker and Elizabeth go through them a cross over into an alternate parallel world. Like when you go through a tear for weapon maker dude being dead in one reality but alive in the new one but because of that everything is changed and different as a result and any promises or knowledge from the previous reality don’t pertain to the new one. This being more in line with sealed demise in the present by Hylia and defeated/sealed demise by Link and the master sword. However, where SS timeline falls apart is here with demise being sealed by the master sword but yet still having been sealed by Hylia in the present with Impa being aware and present to live out the consequences of both events. It’s just not possible and why the timeline splits after OoT.
The only way I see this working for Link is he himself or any of his companions being protected by a sort of bubble which makes it so they don’t get affected with the forward and reversing of time. How exactly that works I don’t know, possibly by divine protection like goddess blood/power or an special item like the master sword creating the bubble.
As far as Impa possibly getting word back to Skyloft, like you I doubt it. It wouldn’t really make sense for the cloud barrier to conveniently not be there yet and only after she could have gotten word back, however she could have done so. To further that if the barrier wasn’t there they would have probably still been at war for a time with anything on the surface that could fly. As for Hylia herself? Well the only way I see that happening is if she could possibly be the so far unnamed goddess of time since so much around her has to do with it and one of her creations being very intimate with it (the master sword). Now someone elsewhere has counter this by saying Hylia/Zelda wouldn’t need time gates if she was the goddess of time and the only possible explanation I can come up with is that as a mortal goddess her power is limited compared to when she was a full fledged goddess or maybe that large scale time manipulation requires a catalyst or just that it’s simply easier and less draining power wise. SS is supposed to be her plan that she purposefully reincarnated as a mortal goddess to enact. Maybe as a full fledged goddess she has the power of foresight and then passed on the legend after creating skyloft but before passing away to await her rebirth. However, that’s all speculation and what if reliant.
The hero of the Manga at the end of the Hyrule Historia doesn't get enough attention at all
Amen. That manga was fantastic.
Yeahhh
YES! He deserves more.
Maybe... The scarf the Link from Hyrule Warriors wears was inspired by the Skyward Sword manga?
I actually prefer the hyrule historia link over skyward sword link. Hyrule historia link is just too badass.
@@Broom1375yt I do wonder what he was framed for though...
AWESOME VIDEO BRO!
I've heard the grandfather paradox answered in the form of the loop, as you mentioned - dead granddad, dead mom, dead me, alive granddad, alive mom, alive me, repeat. The natural consequence is that it spits out 2 different outcomes, so a split in the time line. I will be thinking about this for a while.
Time travel does make Skyward Sword Link the original Link.
Exactly , don't know what is so hard to ppl understand about it 😆.
The only problem I can see with this theory is that when Link travels back through time to rescue Zelda, Ghirahim is trying to resurrect Demise using Zelda's life force which implies that Demise had already been defeated or sealed BEFORE Link travelled back in time.
true, or he just meant it as in "bring Demise out of the Imprisoned"
@@SweetCrumblingDoll and the war had obviously already happened because by the time we go back to, the goddess statue had been sent to the sky, and presumably Skyloft with it, because the sealed grounds were in their spiral shape.
@@SweetCrumblingDoll correct. Even in the prequel manga, that first Hero died fighting. He didn’t defeat Demise, the Goddess did.
Wow this was a really amazing theory. So so so good. Awesome!
Wow. That’s insane
👏👏👏👏👏
Well done
Most of this is an example of “Time Traveler’s Exemption Clause”
This means the time traveler is immune to the changes in the time stream. If this wasn’t implemented in fiction, the time traveler’s memories would have to be adjusted to accommodate the “new timeline” because it was always that was for the time traveler. But with Time Traveler’s Exemption Clause, we (the player) remain completely unchanged as we interact with the timeline.
Reference: Lorerunner’s Rumination Analysis on Chrono Trigger
That's be a really trippy story if the main character never remembered what he did lol
@@highdefinition450 not exactly the same but steins gate implies that the mc should lose his memories yet he doesn’t.
My thoughts: Demise was sealed by Hylia's original form even before Skyward Sword, turning him into The Imprisoned. After this, while Demise was defeated by Link in the past, this was never truly enough to destroy him, but rather only sealing him once more. This is why he returns as The Imprisoned in the game during the present time. The only thing powerful enough to truly destroy Demise, was the triforce. So when Link used the triforce before boing back in time, he could finally destroy Demise for good and that is why he's later reincarnated as Ganondorf rather than himself or The Imprisoned.
The fact that you can time travel back to the future as Demise waits for you to fight him only to find everything as it was and not, you know, destroyed by an undefeated Demise, shows a lot of time shenanigans
He’s got a lot of patience.
Holy shit…. Mind blown. This is why Zeltik is the best.
I'll just chock this up to Demise's curse as the explanation for why Link returned to the present that he did. By cursing the soul of the hero, the Goddess, and his own with eternal reprise, he somehow allowed Link to return to a timeline with both of the Demise slain (one by the Triforce in the present and one by the Master Sword in the past), at least I think.
Its just not true, demise don't curse link and zelda to reincarnate everytime, he only say that he will reincarnate everytime link and zelda does, so that mean that link and zelda already reincarnate
@@redguy564 Either way, with that curse he will continue to exist, so that's probably why Link and Zelda returned to the present that they did, because he can still exist.
@@redguy564 he literally says its a curse in his dying words
You gotta be one Hell of a man to get a Goddess to fall in love with you and cast away her divinity for you
What a stud
It’s a game , a fully made up story . Watch this ….
A fly made a woman kill herself
Wow what a powerful fly … no .
Grow up
@@joshdean5867 not sure what you're trying to get at
@@joshdean5867 Grow up? What you just said is beyond childish.
@Zeltik
Re: Time Travel in Skyward Sword - I know you said there's no definitive answer that reconciles the two forms of time travel found within the game. That's true, but I think I've got the best attempt out there to make sense of it. Made a whole graph and everything. You have to break the timeline out into iterations. Single timeline, each time travel event slightly modifies it. That opens up a range of possibilities.
On time loops specifically: Conceptually speaking, time loops need a first cause so that they can form in the first place. They are part of time after all, not outside of it, and are therefore subject to cause and effect. The time loop is an effect. What is its cause? The first cause can be a god who created time with time loops already baked into it out of nothing, or the first cause can be time travel that kicks the whole thing off that alters the timeline such that a stable time loop eventually forms.
In short, you've detailed the problems with the first case of the time loop pre-existing already in place. But I think reconciliation is possible in the second case. In the second case, what looks like two forms of time travel really is one form that manifests in two different ways. As for exactly how that works, I have Thoughts(tm). Google "Skyward Sword temporal sequential timeline" for them and a handy flow chart (lol). It's the first result.
TLDR temporal mechanics are a b.
I am imagining it like a stretched slinky. It's continuous and looping. The Schrodinger reference is perfect.
The other thing that is perfect? The Doctor Who reference. Glad to know my favorite Zelda Lore TH-camr is also a Whovian! Allonsy!
The plot of Skyward Sword is a big ball of wibbly-wobbley… timey-wimey… stuff
Plot Twist: Breath of the Wild Link is Hylia's Chosen because Breath of the Wild 2 loops back around to become Skyward Sword's Past even though it has been stated to take place AFTER Ocarina of Time.
The beginning cutscenes paintings are both in the present and in the past at the Sealed Temple where you seal The Imprisoned.
Frickin dope video, thanks!,
I loved that comic, and wish it could be seen in Skyward sword back story.
It would make so much sense
@@bangtanluver certainly much more sense than whatever the hell this video was trying to say.
Time travels in any kind of medium is amazing and helps in creating incredible stories...but damn it complicates things.
Yeah. In a story, you also have to pick how your time travel works and stick with it, and there are stories in Zelda with different types of time travel. It doesn't make them bad at all, in fact, most are great stories. It just makes the timeline as a whole.... confusing lol.
That reminds me of OoT/MM-Link in TP as a ghost Stalfos. He says he has regrets, & for me it allways feels like he knows that he splitted the timeline, but also in MM, which would mean each time he traveled back in time he let one timeline go to ruin.
It might not effect him as a kid, but when he got older he might think back to it & realize how many ppl in different timelines died just to save one timeline.
5:00 This is the face of rage and wrath that more characters need to have instead of just being "somewhat surprised and or annoyed" to give proper feeling to characters. A person doesn't go through what heroes of truly epic stories such as these characters do and not have a feeling of absolute wrath towards people trying to ruin their life and that of those they care for!