Triangle Lessons with Leonard Bernstein
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ม.ค. 2017
- Playing the triangle is not as easy as it seems! Just ask these hapless percussionists who Leonard Berstein tries to educate in this rehearsal of Berlioz's Roméo et Juliette.
Originally published at andres.soto.composer - เพลง
The Greatest Music Educator of All Time: "I don't know how to do it. But do it."
This is the life of a percussionist.
One time I was too quiet on the chimes and the principal trombone turned around and said "just make noise".
us percussionist have it hard
@@lollycopter who would know better about noise? lol
He is not the greatest...
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I do this on occasion. Not to percussion. To sopranos.
"I don't know how to tell you to do it but DO IT!" I think every band director has said this at least once before.
*band* director............?? - a band is a band as an orchestra is an orchestra
They are practically the same thing as conductors, only that band director leads a band (not a rock band or such but a ensemble consisting of mostly wind instruments) instead of orchestra.
Alexa Patricia In my humble opinion, the best conductors are the ones that don't try to tell you how to play your instrument, but, instead, tell you what they are hearing, what they want to hear, and coach you until you get it just right.
Band director 🤦🏻♂️
Seasoned band directors have learned how to play
all of the instruments and inherently know what
to tell students to do specifically in order to "fix"
an issue. Whether it be a special fingering, a breathing
technique or whatever. Percussion is a special
animal for sure, but with today's access to every
technique known to man on You Tube, there are
no excuses for not knowing what to say to help
your students. I certainly don't know everything
but I can find out or find someone who does.
Just a thought.
If you play the two together, you get a rhombus.
ahahahahah XD
A math joke wow
zebra3stripes hahahah win!
lol
XD
- It is taggadaggggadummmmm, not klink klink.
- Klink.
- Worse. Congratulations.
haha yes but I guess it's taggadadumm
@@saoirsestark3903 I think its more like tiggaddadum
But DumbMojo says it's easy....
@@jdgshsjchdjejkd545 wow you clearly haven't watch the whole video before commenting
@@jdgshsjchdjejkd545 Dam which orchestra are you a part of?
TWO SET VIOLIN
@@jdgshsjchdjejkd545 you're dumb then
@@jdgshsjchdjejkd545 go hear "can can" and be amazed of the triangle (while having stroke) playing. maybe you won't be as naive as rn
Some say they're still there trying to do it right.
It proves that one must NOT UNDERESTIMATE the little Triangle! It is a real percussion Instrument that deserves enormous attention. Playing rhythms with precision and clarity is very difficult indeed.
"In English with German subtitles"
You exaggerate - it's not that difficult with a little practice.
That is incorrect...it takes musicianship and control and practice to play any percussion instrument well.
Tell it JR.
Noah Of course, percussion is the the easiest instrument group to start playing off the bat. But people don't realize that it takes years of training just like any other instrument to master. The triangle is definitely one of the most overlooked auxillary instruments - everything from beater to angle to strikeing position to force of stroke (and of course the instrument itself) affect the tone produced. It takes an incredibly trained ear to to pick the perfect timbre that actually mathces with the rest of the orchestra. Of course you could give a triangle part to a novice and they would be able to play it with at least some competence in a few hours, but it takes years for professionals to develop the "perfect" triangle sound. Not to mention that it can be extremely nerve racking when you play an instrument that is often exposed in extremely delicate areas, and that you alone will make or break the entire mood of that section.
Sorry, just a long rant by an extremely passionate percussionist haha.
He's right. They're not playing quite together and it blurs the sound.
If they are not playing together blame the conductor!!
It would be practically impossible for two triangles to be played precisely together in reality. This isn't computer midi playing. Triangles in reality don't have that fine a control for them, especially two different percunssionists, including a first-timer to the orchestra.
to do a clear tagadagam, you need a single triangle .....
Can you imagine the sound 15 of them going like that would sound like, nightmare!
Thank you. Someone else who understands. What Leonard was asking for here was a bit unrealistic.
maybe the triangles were out of tune at 432hz
I don’t get it
but they were in tune with the *U N I V E R S E*
#A is 415
@@georgepantzikis7988 - in the Baroque period, yes, lol.
Not mayba its exactly
Lenny: Basically considered a superhuman in music, having created incredible performances through his conducting and performing himself, as well as composing incredible scores and pieces, and creating a new generation of music lovers.
Also Lenny:
Sounded like someone dropped some forks on the floor at first :P
I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for both. The conductor knowing exactly how he wants it to sound, yet not knowing how to explain it to the musician. On the other hand, the musician not knowing or understanding the dynamic. Those are the kind of things that cannot be written, it's up to the conductor and musician to decipher what the composer wanted it to sound like.
I don't know chief, DAGADADUM SOUNDS PRETTY EXPLICIT TO ME.
I think this is just a result of a triangle being a triangle. Bernstein seemed to want a sound that was much more dry than this triangle was capable of.
@@jonkflurgen6975 I think this is just a result of a triangle player being a triangle player. Completely dog shit.
@@lifenote1943 what triangle player in your life hurt you man
@@jonkflurgen6975 It is what it is dude, I'm just tired of these people getting more credit than they deserve, which is none.
"I don't know how to tell you to do it, but do it."
Excellent quote.
"It sounds like a doorbell" whole orchestra laughs
This is exactly the vibe of playing percussion in high school. Everyone thinks aux perc instruments are kinda a joke, like "I could do that". And they probably could LOL, but that percussionist isn't there because he plays triangle, it's cuz hes a master of snare, timpani, dozens of aux instruments, and probably mallets too.
"Could you make it somehow more rhythmic so it is not just a clink?" :D :D
“It sounds like a doorbell!”
th-cam.com/video/N3wkjcbXgZg/w-d-xo.html
Ouch. Reminds me of Mozart saying to Salieri "funny little tune but it yielded some good things."
"Nah...it's worse.(Orchestra laughs!) Well, congratulations!"
This is my favorite scene from Maestro
it literally sounded like a door bell!
„I don’t know how to tell you to do it, but do it!” - the favorite sentence of every musician!😂
"Not quite my tempo"
rusher
SO YOU FUCKING KNOW THE DIFFERENCE!!?
Elías Baez Tabe g
Everytime I search for your comment!!
I was looking for this
I'm watching this on what would've been Bernstein's 100th birthday, and this is still one of the most enlightening triangle videos I've ever seen.
@ageingdrummerboy That was years ago... and I haven’t seen many since, honestly. Still, the instructions there are more detailed and specific than those of any conductor I’ve ever played for, least of all my own.
1. It’s ridiculous writing. The rhythm Bernstein is asking for - four quick, loud notes with the first accented and the rest articulate - is physically impossible for a triangle to do. In order to make any passage of quick successive notes sound articulate, the player has to crescendo the strokes, so the sustain of one stroke doesn’t drown out the attack of the next. One could increase clarity by muting or half-muting the triangle for the first three notes, but that would reduce the volume.
2. This rhythm is difficult to articulate on one triangle. Adding players increases the difficulty exponentially; two players is more than twice as hard.
3. Attempting to discern a tempo, and then subdivide it into a triplet rhythm, from just a single ictus is like looking through a fishbowl to aim a dart at a target at the extreme limit of your throwing distance. A countoff to establish a tempo would have made a world of difference in getting the two players aligned, even though the instruments would still fail (see point #1).
4. There are better ways of mounting the triangles that might have made it easier to get a clear articulation, and to mount them up higher so the sound wouldn’t be muffled by the bodies in front of them. It’s likely those options weren’t available to these two poor chaps, and the problem in point #1 would still apply.
5. If one or both of them are new to percussion, the ability to control the beaters well enough to articulate that rhythm even on a snare drum, let alone a triangle, is a couple years in their future, if they practice their technique properly. The touch and small-motor control to do what that passage requires is pretty remarkable, if not impossible.
6. While I can’t really blame the Orchestra for laughing at Bernstein, the fact is that few if any of the musicians there could have done better.
Maybe they should've taken a drum stick and beaten the notes out of the triangle
How to fix: Smaller triangle with bigger beaters. Smaller triangle will give a higher pitch, bigger beaters will produce more attack. The combination will be more piercing and articulate. Problem solved.
Interesting. Thanks!
Hm I don't think this would work, as the problem was, that he wanted to hear four distinct notes, wich would be harder with bigger beaters...
TwoSet! Thanks for bringing this gem of laughter to my knowledge :)
The thing that should be MUCH apparent from this video is that, while we watch an orchestra in a performance where the conductor is (apparently) doing little more than 'keeping time', a conductor's greatest and most important work comes during REHEARSALS. BRAVO to the unseen, unsung hero!
Since the orchestra can't hear itself, the conductor does much more than keep time and is as vital during the performance as during rehearsal. The orchestra would fail utterly if the conductor were not there.
It's so awesome that this was captured on video.
I was in the second grade... @Blessed Sacrament elementary school in Wichita, Kansas... and joined the school orchestra. I started with the snare drum but our first recital, all I played was the triangle... And at the end, the conductor called me out specifically for making sure the others kept time... He thanked me and the 'audience' applauded...
I wish Lenny was my teacher.
drmorq
Eyyy Wichita, KS
You visited there?
Live here lol
I feel for you then. I lived there 31 years. Now I have lived here in Everett Washington for 29 years. I do get wistful for a few days of my youth in Wichita and my son and his family live there now. I need to visit but I have 2 arrests for weed back there on my record... they would LOVE to make an example of me and lock me up for a while... so the choice is not easy. And the cost is high no matter what...
#WarrenProject
ayo currently a senior at Wichita East High School! Also an SCKMEA All State Trombonist. Love and hate this city.
"How long have you been playing triangle?" "About 20 minutes."
"How does the conductor teach triangle player?" "Sine language."
"How do two triangle players move in together?" "Cosine."
Triangle to timpani: "You're pointless." Timpani to triangle: "You're obtuse."
I hold my breath ever time I watch this video.
Triangle is a very popular instrument in Brazilian northeast music, specially Baião and its variantes; there are thousands of unknown triangle virtuosos everywhere in the country. You'll should definitely check it out :)
Sorry to break it to you, but mr Bernstein is taking a dirt nap
@@Mr850manI don't think the person that wrote the original comment thought they were speaking directly to Bernstein. Pretty sure they were speaking in general to other viewers lol 😂
I remember when I was in kindergarden nobody liked me not even the teacher and she gave me the triangle to play while everybody else got the "advanced" instruments. She gave me the "easiest" instument. 😂😂😂
How are you doing today my name is Eric
@@ericmoorev956 good
@@mith3879 so where are you from
it is the easiest instrument you a p e
@@lifenote1943 wtf
Everyone: Well, I can play the triangle!
Leonard Bernstein: No you cannot. DAGGADADAM!
Henry Ford doesn't know how machines work but he got his reluctant engineers to develop a V8. Classic example of, "I don't know how you'd do it but DO it."
"I need you to play the triangle so it sounds like a drum."
"You guys playing the drums need to figure out how to make triangle noises. Alright. And a one-y, and a two-y...."
"I don't know how to do it, but do it", that illuminated something I've never considered before -- conductors/composers don't know how to play (at least some of) the instruments they're directing.
No shit
Love this man, love Maestro Bernstein & miss his like tremendously - he was a complete gentleman.
complete gentleman..........?
In this case he was an a....., sorry.... Genius, but anyway only human.
Imagine having to live down that last comment from one of the greatest conductors of our time........ 🙄😏
Oh my god, this takes me back to full orchestra practice! I had a conductor that wasn't as versed in string instruments and would always give instruction on how he wanted the bowing or vibrato to sound but no advice on how to achieve it, like "try starting the vibrato before touching the bow to the string so the note resonates from the beginning" 😂😂😂
Ninety percent of vibrato is half mental.
But.. that’s actually a valid suggestion.Starting your vibrato before you touch the string lets you warm up your sound immediately.
@@solstice871 it doesn't work like that though, it makes the note sound shakey
@@rite2bcreative Not necessarily always. I can tell you that this suggestion of starting the vibrato before you start the note is something I’ve heard plenty of times from conductors over years of orchestral experience.
@@solstice871 I would love to see a video with an example of this. Not continuous vibrato, where the bow stays on the string and the vibrato continues during bow changes or different notes, but of someone starting vibrato before the bow touches the string
Obiously this needs more cowbell. Cowbells are far superior to these puny triangles :P
The best education I got in high school and college was from my hard-ass high school band director. He was tougher on us than Bernstein was to these professionals, and his firm expectations have served me well through many decades since.
I wish I had a triangle right now so I could do it right
Best advice for percussionists when a conductor starts speaking in ambiguously descriptive language....grab a different implement.
Dwight Fontenot I've heard stories of a conductor asking a timpanist to use a different mallet, and the timpanists pretends to switch mallets. He instead just changes his touch and the composer would reply: " Yeah, those sound much better."
LOL!
I have a similar story. A conductor asked me to play a bass drum part quieter. The first time I played my absolute best piano dynamic. He said it was still too loud. The next rep I didn't play at all, just aired the part, pretending to hit the drum, total silence. When asked if it was quiet enough, he said it could still be a little softer.
@@DolphinPain Yep. Technique does a ton.
@@DolphinPain ive done this before LOL
Clearly he wanted a big accent on the first beat and another accent on the last beat, which is exactly right, and of course he also wanted perfect ensemble so the articulation is distinct. The closest was the 2nd try, but it wasn't loud enough, and it wasn't really together. I bet they ended up hanging each triangle from two supports, so they're not a moving target.
Yessss but he didn't know how to articulate that to them. DI-gadi-DUM
i thought he wanted more emphasis on the last note. yeah impossible to really tell what he wants. he should have tapped it out or something
That was hilarious. Hit it in the spot that doesn't sound like just a clink or a doorbell. Okay, got it :-)
Nice to see that even serious musicians have humor at work and know how to prank the new members of the orchestra.
But it not prank?
This video gave me 3 years of life
I would have been so nervous at his direction in front of the whole orchestra, I would have flubbed it good.
He is not alone in his triangle difficulties - they always miss the triangle note in die Meistersinger overture these days - one of the greatest scorings of a single note in musical history!
(Gross dereliction of duty!)
I applaud perfection
He wanted to hear PERFECT music 👍💐
two set in DA house
Know your instrument. It’s the quality of the tool and your experience
I have a big orchestral triangle passed down to me by my father the late Milt Holland, it makes a huge difference where you hit on the triangle - inner, outer, under, over, etc. - and there are many possible places but once you get familiar with your instrument you can probably find the spot to make it more percussive. You have to try different beaters and parts of the beater as well of course but three minutes with LB might not be enough for those kids
Nobody said a fun boss had to be easy to work for. RIP Leonard. God bless
He is dead? I didn't even know he was sick!
I have a new found appreciation for the triangle
FUN FACT: Beethoven's original instrument was the triangle. He was considered the greatest triangle virtuoso in all of Europe
For real?
what the heck virtuoso in triangle even means?
I agree with Bernstein. He is trying to get them to make it sound like music and not like a door bell or some funky sound.
Spitze !!!!
I laughed so hard when a friend told me he played triangle in high school. I have much more respect for him right now after knowing that playing that little tiny instrument is actually hard af.
Percussionists don't just play one instrument. There are around 120 instruments that a professional percussionist is likely to need to master, particularly if they play classical, Broadway and work with film studios on scores and foley. The instruments cut be grouped together in, roughly, 9 groups which each rely on similar playing skills. You need remarkable eye+hand coordination and excellent focusing skills.
Yes, some take far more time and effort to master than others. Triangle isn't anywhere near the hardest, but it also isn't quite as easy as some people imagine. The thing moves as you play it. You have to know how to strike it to produce one sound or another. It doesn't easily accommodate rapid playing. It has a limited range of volume to work within.
As for playing triangle in high school ... Well, it's likely that your friend wasnt very good if the music teacher never moved him from triangle to other percussion instruments. Music teachers will move good percussion players between instruments from time to time if they show skills. That's the honest truth. Sorry.
@@ems7623 relax
Bernstein had likely lost his ability to pick up that frequency a decade earlier.
sounds like someone dropping a fork.
Thankfully, instead of choosing the triangle, you can go for a simpler instument, called the duangle, which is 33% easier as it only has two angles.
This will be in everyone's recommended now that twosetviolin made a video about triangle
Just hang a small piece of cloth to mute the triangle just a little. More cloth, more muteing which allows the strokes to be more distinct. Maestro was struggling with the fact that the ringing gets in the way of discerning the rhythm.
I come here from Two Set Violin.
Loooove that❤️😃
"I don't know how to tell you to do it-just DO IT". Classic!
I don't now how to tell you to fix my car-just do it.
just use one triangle and heavier beaters. I assume he wanted more volume so suggested 2 triangles. ... or is the part really written for (different sized!?) triangles?
Three days later:
Bernstein: “OK we finally got it. Who’s up next? You? What instrument do you play?”
Player: “Theremin.”
Bernstein: “Somebody please shoot me.”
Someday, just someday these people will be going places
if they made it into Bernstein's orchestra they probably already went places
You realizing what I can't express is like meeting the requirement to be in dialogue. Stupid funny. ❤
The Triangle players must deaden the triangle directly after the first note and bring out the others in a tight rhythm.
1:05 he was angry!!!
Ahahahah
I love how they played differently each time trying to search for his sound and he ended up hating them all hahaha.
The triangleists should have yelled "diggy-di-dum" in a rhythmic fashion with a lot of passion as they played. Maybe it would have passed the Bernstein sniff test.
A lateral solution would have been to do it by flicking the fingers from the thumb - it would have worked, but probably meant banishment from the Union of Trianglists.
At least he's good-humoured about it! 😄
"it goes like this damnit = dug e duh dunt!"
"So its not just a CLINK" hahahhahaha
I'm greatly surprised that a conductor of Bernstein's vast experience would not know how a triangle should be suspended and struck to achieve the sound and articulation he wanted.
Maybe he was pretending. But few conductors know how instruments are played unless it is their instrument.
@@nonenoneonenonenone It's more likely that he was inebriated.
absolutely possible...@@leestamm3187
if you realize that one of the musicians can't do the job, please, don't make that musician feel terrible in front of the whole orchestra, and don't make fun of them saying "congratulations" when you made it so clear for everyone that they had failed.
You can fix the problem after the rehearsal. Making them feel embarrassed in front of everyone is not going to make the triangle sound better soon. And it breaks confidence. The other musicians will think "this could happen to me next time".
You have a point, but that's the life of an orchestral musician. The conductor doesn't have time to coach everyone offline. You need a thick skin to be an orchestral musician. The conductor can be working with a section that isn't "getting it" and it's obvious to the rest of the orchestra they aren't.
@@fredrupert9237 I'm not saying that the conductor can fix the problem in another (better) way. But what we see in the video (the conductor's attitude) doesn't fix the problem either, at all.
Seems like he'd have actually been better off with just the one triangle considering he was looking for clarity.
...but...volume?
maybe mute it a bit (like with light pressure of a finger touch) so they don't ring as much and are more staccato like he wanted?
It’s too late 😅
Lightly Placing a finger on the top part will give the staccato he is looking for
Two step brought me back here the easiest instrument to play
Bernstein struggled to find a strong sound here. He mentions wanting 15 triangles instead of two, which would have been an amazingly bright and shimmering ensemble sound. Perhaps he could have gotten the other percussions involved on the bells, glock, or chimes, maybe the bell of a cymbal, or even an unconventional solution like some metal peices they had lying around, all played with metal beaters
Yeah i don't think Bernstein was really understanding what is possible with triangle. Really, good percussionists will know how to produce a better sound if you give them a little room for creativity.
In general, doubling up triangle is bad for clarity.
"Sounds like a doorbell" It actually did xD
...Then again you could create a doorbell that goes "tiggidaddum"!
🎼🎶
*" i dunno how to tell you to do it but DO IT"*
The equivalent to “Not My Tempo” from Whiplash
What if you just used two sticks and played the triangle from the outside for those precise rhythms?
They’ve never made another one like him.
The problem is that the instrument is already resonating when it is struck again. The volume becomes somewhat equal so accents are gone. With constant equal noise you wont get any rhythm either, it's just like a violin playing one long note with reverb.
The fix would be 1 triangle per hit. Each one can immediately be muted and given clearly different accents. A noise gate would probably help too, regardless of the amount of triangles you can get. An EQ wouldn't hurt either.
@ageingdrummerboy Well aren't you a snarky one.
One per person/trigger per triangle obviously. You show your amateur hand when you say you don't know what a noise gate and EQ are, and don't realize live music(not rehearsals) almost always has a digital element, primarily so people can actually hear them, so don't go talking down to me.
It is completely different because a pianos notes are played in parallel and a triangles notes are played in series, it's a matter of physics.
@ageingdrummerboy Then don't be snarky, you were a major dick in your initial response, why would I be pleasant in return.
The same note on a piano isn't parallel(there are exceptions to this), but in general notes on a piano are because strings are separate, whereas a triangle is a single piece. This means that not only is having more triangles easier and cleaner, but gives you far more room in composition and arrangement, particularly when the percussionist is highly unlikely to only wield a triangle for the entire piece.
If you can triangle it slowly, you can triangle it quickly.
THERE'S MY TWOSET COMMENTER
My two cents are the following: I believe he wanted them to hit the instrument with 4 harsh(?) strikes so as to make a more decise, clear and neat sound. Just my opinion
usually you don't have cameras in the rehearsal and it's pretty hard not to get the feeling that Bernstein was performing for the cameras rather than conducting a rehearsal in the most efficient way.
"Ach, it's worse." The plight of every director
This cracked me up
THIS is why percussionists get payed
Tell me again. What is union pay scale for a triangulist ?
His just not understanding the problem. They are two playing unsynchronized, therefore all sounds comes doubled, resulting in a chaotic doorbell.
even in the dark empty hall in the middle of the night... some heard there's triangle ringing and some thumping "di-ga-da-dum"
How is it expected from them to play synced? Do his cues set the tempo? The cue is "one" alone. Can anyone explain?