The Jedi Purge Bigger Than Order 66
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ต.ค. 2024
- Order 66 and the Jedi Purge of theEmpire may be what you think of first when it comes to wiping olut the Jedi, but Knights of the Old Republic had an even bigger one.
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The lack of information on the post-Kotor 1 world has always annoyed me. I want to hear more about the random Sith splinters states and warlords fighting for the legacy of Revan and Malak. I want to see the specifics of why a certain party member thought it was all going to come crashing down. I want to know how the Dark Wars impacted the galaxy!
All we know is that the outer rim was devastated by mando and sith warlords for a few years. Most of revans sith died in a civil war on korriban. Those that didn’t went to trayas academy.
It's annoying, sure, but not unrealistic. Just look at how Tolkien's Legendarium treats the history of the Númenoreans, and also our own real life ancient history... face it, records will always have an unexplorable and long lost dark age.
I’d wager they were systematically wiped out by the republic which is likely why they weren’t touched upon. The Sith of KOTOR’s era don’t even hold a candle to the Sith of SWTOR’s in terms of strength and many likely became mad in the search for power. The Republic was still heavily militarized by the time of the Sith invasion before SWTOR which is likely due to this period.
If there were any Sith holdouts (which is highly unlikely) by the time of SWTOR then they likely would’ve been exterminated by the Sith Empire as heretics corrupted by Jedi teachings as we see with their view of Revan. The Sith for some reason though do highly revere Exar Kun despite him being in the same boat as Revan, probably due to Revan’s actions against the emperor.
I have a feeling that KOTOR II overexaggerated the Jedi purge as Revan never was able to sack or capture Coruscant so it’s likely that the Jedi order was small but had enough survivors that they didn’t learn from their mistakes by the time of SWTOR unlike what KOTOR II’s good ending would make it seem like.
Compare that to SWTOR where the Jedi were reduced heavily in numbers due to 3 decades of war but not whittled down to a few hundred. Albeit it wasn’t a Jedi civil war like KOTOR’s time period but the Jedi were beaten heavily.
@@iterationfackshet1990 they like exar because he was taught by the legendary naga sadow.
@@michaelandreipalon359ok but we know about that dude from TPM who went “rarrrgh” before blowing up. Not having that kind of info seems like a oversight
Hell, in the animatics of TOR from the hype cycle, when they were going over the Mando Wars, they made it seem like Revan beat Mandalore, ran up to his ship and activated the MSG himself. No mention of Meetra at all lol
If I had a nickel for every time Chris Avellone wrote a very verbose character in an RPG who existed to deconstruct the entire premise of the franchise, I’d have two nickels. Which isn’t a lot, but bull bear bull bull bear bull
There's definitely an essay worth writing trying to examine KotOR2 as essentially an anagram of Planescape Torment set in Star Wars- Atris's name is even a litteral annagram of Tiras, and I think her character gains extra weight being examined as taking on the same role as a *literal fallen angel* just as much a Nihilus takes on extra weight when comparing him to the Transcendent One really emphasizes the parallels between Nihilus and The Exile, how similar the two of them are.
It's a shame that KOTOR 2 in general wasn't the direction that Bioware wanted to go. Hence why the events of KOTOR 2 are nearly forgotten in TOR compared to KOTOR.
@@-CrimsoN-I don’t blame them for reverting the tone. Kotor 2 was a rather depressing cynical game. I still vastly prefer it to the first game though because it isn’t some rehash chosen one story. You are only the hero because you were at the wrong place at the right time and no one else stepped up.
@@empirednw6624 You're still sort of the Chosen One in KOTOR 2, but it's more of "you survived so much trauma (Malachor) without dying, so its your job to stop the Sith now. Everyone else is dead. Good luck".
I will never understand BioWare abandoning KotOR II and lessening Mass Effect 3 just to make that hindsightfully lackluster MMO.
Comics set before the Mandolorian Wars, with Exar Kun, Nomi Sunrider, and the Qel-Droma's show a Jedi "Order" that are scattered. No real central leadership or home base. The Jedi Order formed after this purge, and in place by the time of the MMO, looks exactly like the one in the Prequel Movies. Temple on Coruscant (for about five minutes), solid hierarchy, and lots of restrictions on members actions - which are observed by how everyone breaks them.
Ossus was the central home base
As a heavy TOR player I am sad to say that there is not much it adds to the reconstruction of the Jedi, other than it needs to happen again after Zakuul
For such a hard reset for the order by such an unorthodox Jedi, they really went right back to the old shit fast in SWTOR, huh?
I imagine the in-universe, slightly boring reason for this is probably just that the Children of the Emperor just presented orthodox Jedi views and values during every single Jedi work meeting to ensure everyone remains a "traditional", predictable Jedi.
It's important to remember that while the Jedi in SWTOR seemed pretty orthodox to us because of our familiarity with the prequel Jedi which they are very similar to they are actually quite a big departure from how the Jedi were 300 years prior during the Great Sith War, SWTOR and to a lesser degree KOTOR are the earliest point in the timeline where the Jedi begin to resemble the Jedi of the prequel era
Actually you could argue it was worst, as it was Atris who lobbied for the limiting the age of Jedi candidates, and when it was rebuild by Meetra Surik's crew who all were adults when they became Jedi, execpt the Disciple who left the Order while he was still a youngling, and for some reason they became more strict!
More good reason to deem that MMO as Elseworlds apocrypha.
@@michaelandreipalon359 I like the MMO more than KOTOR so no I will not be doing that
I think in KOTOR2 and some other material (can't remember what) one of the Jedi council members says that there are other jedi in hiding whose whereabouts are unknown, and that they will re-emerge once the Triumvirate is defeated. It's a very vague mention though and I only noticed it but sheer luck
I think Zez-Kai Ell says something along those lines. He's on Nar Shaddaa and the game heavily implies that you're supposed to find him first as he gives you a lot of additional information regarding whats going on.
Pretty sure Zez is just talking about the other Masters. He has no way of knowing which ones are still alive.
Supplementary material like the atlases state that there were other Jedi who survived, of note was the guy who stops you in KOTOR 1 to tell you about the Great Hunt for Sith spawn. His name was like three names in one, blanking on it right now.
But people like Jolee and Juhani were never followed up on.
We actually have reason to believe that there have been many Jedi Purges throughout history. As Elzar told Luke the Jedi have often been whittled down to just a few and it's up to those who remain to be the bastion of light that the galaxy needs.
"Darkness is an everlasting tide and it rises once again."
tis Canon tho. Not legends. And not everything always needs to be taken at face value even if star wars does that a lot already
*"The never-ending battle",* as roughly stated by good men like Superman and perhaps Gandalf.
Are you going to do a video on the Third Jedi Purge? I mean the First Jedi Purge is pretty unknown, but if anyone has played KOTOR 2 then they'd know about it. But the Third Jedi Purge is even more obscure having only been present/depicted in the Legacy series of comics.
It is worth observing in that quick summary of the Mandalorian Wars that Revan and Malak did not fall *after* the war- they fell early on enough that Revan spent a decent part of the war specifically attempting to break or kill all of the Jedi who had followed him to war. To put them in situations to trying that they would eventually begin to fall to the Dark Side, or just die and no longer be his problem anymore. This is why The Exile was the *only* Jedi who followed Revan to war without falling to the Dark Side- Revan intentionally engineered the fall of as many Jedi as he could, and the deaths of every Jedi who he couldn't. Presumably he was convinced that Surik was going to fall after activating the Mass Shadow Generator, just like Nihilus did.
Edit: It's also worth noting that the Jedi and Miraluka on Katar *did not know* that this Conclave was going to lure in Nihilus- they were just hoping to share all the knowledge they had of their enemy and try to understand what the hell was going on, but Atris found a way to tell the Sith what was happening, hoping to lure them into a trap. Nihilus took a note from Obi-Wan's book and sprung the trap intentionally, and made Atris look like an absolute buffoon (or the fallen traitor trying to fake her own death and get the rest of the Jedi killed that she probably actually was) by killing all the Jedi who were supposed to stop him.
The First Purge was a gradual process of elimination of the Jedi for many years throughout the many conflicts of that era, and especially with the Sith Assassins hunting many Jedi in hiding. The Third Purge was the exact opposite of the first in the form of the fact that it was out of nowhere and it was in short span of time many Jedi were ill prepared to face the return of the Sith Empire, and the One Sith were extremely effective in their hunt of the Jedi.
I mean, it was more gradual than Order 66, but I think "many" years makes it seem far more gradual than it was. It was at most two years between it starting and Katarr.
The one sith purge was a joke. There were so many Jedi left that a whole temple was still in operation with a high council.
@@empirednw6624 Probably what happens in a Jedi Order founded by people who knew when to pack up and run for it at the drop of a hat.
@@Hartzilla2007 great point. Luke’s order probably had a contingency for every occasion lol.
To call it bigger than Order 66 is a bit of a stretch. It may have eliminated the vast majority of Jedi, but it didn't truly succeed in wiping out the institution itself. Palpatine managed to do that, even tho some Jedi or in most cases rather former Jedi hid across the Galaxy. That's why Luke had to start an entirely New Jedi Order rather than just continue with the old. He had no basis or template left for that and had to work from scratch. That is obviously why from the historical perspective in-universe the Great Jedi Purge is seen as far more impactful long-term.
That's the thing though, the presentation of the purge in KotOR has the institution equally destroyed. At the point where you're assuming how many previous Jedi came into Luke's vs the prior one here, or how much they're connected to prior Jedi (the Lost Jedi learned from Meetra, but she left pretty quickly and Luke learned from Obi-Wan and Yoda, Kam learned from his dad, K'kruhk and T'ra Saa became council members having been original Jedi Ordef members, the Jensaarai who joined Luke's Order early on had been connected to the original order), you're basically splitting hairs. The big difference is the timing, but that's part of the point in the video is on how any other media about it has it pretty much immediately back, contrary to what KotOR 2 is setting up, and how that's what downplays the impact more than the events itself. It's like if RotS came out with no OT available and the Order was re-established as a full institution within 12 months
@@CoreysDatapad I guess that's why Leyland Chee once said each EU installment is a "foggy window" to the universe at large. How the events are individually depicted may diverge from what the lore itself has to say about them ("that was not the first time I died" is another example). What seems clear is that the Jedi Order post First Purge is the very same Old Jedi Order that originated all the way back after the Force Wars and would eventually come to an end during the Clone Wars. Just like the NJO after Krayt's Third Purge is still the same NJO that was founded by Luke. Looking at the entire timeline, it's probably fair to say it requires a lot of time for history to assess the individual importance of events, at least long-term.
Funnily enough Kotor 2 being sidelined and overlooked over the years has just made it stand out that much more as a hidden gem in the continuity. Seeing how SWTOR handled Revan and general misinformation spread about the first game by people who never played it maybe Kotor 2 is better off in obscurity both in and out of universe.
What misinformation about Kotor 1?
@@Hello-bi1pm Any form of "Revan was a grey jedi" discourse for starters
I think more of Emperor Krayt's Jedi Purge in 128ABY.
I've played quite a bit of SWTOR and I don't recall any serious mention of how the Jedi Order was reestablished after KOTOR 2. Meetra appears a couple times as a force ghost/memory, but doesn't mention much of anything about the Jedi Purge or what happened after.
There are a few in game codex entries about it like how the disciple sat at the head of the new high council.
@@empirednw6624 I didn't know that. Nice detail, although still not much unfortunately.
You’re one of my inspirations to start a channel! Gonna be starting very soon
I’d love to hear some of your “conspiracy theories” about Star Wars content
"Maarek Stele and Kyle Katarn have secret powers of precognition" and "Vergere is actually a Kreia reincarnation" included?
I think bane did a pretty good purge of both Jedi and sith with that force bomb
I always get more excited than I should be to hear about Exar kᵤn
No one forgot the best Star Wars story ever told, thank you Chris Avalon for KOTOR 2 and for proving one can be both original and respectful to the previous material
Still doesn't forgive him for his suspect transgressions.
@@michaelandreipalon359 no one cares.
@@Chedring Lots do, particularly the MeToo movements, which no one shouldn't dare oppose casually.
The in-universe explenation could be that era was largely unchronicled in history due to how few jedi survived it, which is fair, especially given what a massive unknown Nihilus was given he wasn't the type to just stalk down onto a planet waving his lightsaber saber around, rather he just rolled up, ordered takeaway grabbed his food and left without paying.
The out-universe reason I suspect KOTOR 2 largely went ignored is because that game's philosophical tone and messaging probably didn't jive with Lucas Film or Bioware and their MMO, so it god glossed over, rewritten and the rest erased from the canon. Even The Jedi Exile is just a regular exiled jedi and not a wound in the force.
Somehow... The Jedi Council returned.
Funny. I was just thinking about the Mandalorian wars earlier today 😀
I'd like to see more The Old Republic lore here. Never got really that much into this game to do sidequests or deep dive into lore of the game.
Disciple did get the council seat. The head seat to boot. It’s a codex entry in tor.
Jedi always be throwing hands
To tell the truth it was effective only because all Jadei were at same place when Nihilus sucked out Life Force from everyone.
Order 66 was mess, because Obi-Wan and Yoda reprogrammed beacon of Jedi Temple. Jedi were scathered arround entire Galaxy.
Love kotor 2. It’s not a typical chosen one story and your only the hero because you were at the wrong place at the right time and no one else steps up. Kotor 1 is just to safe and formulaic for me.
Oh yes. The First Jedi Purge. All together there's been around three Jedi Purges: the First Jedi Purge (the subject of this video), the Great Jedi Purge (Revenge of the Sith), and the Third Jedi Purge (127 ABY-138 ABY and it wasn't really successful, thanks to the combined efforts of the Galactic Alliance remnant, the Fel Empire and the New Jedi Order and with the actions of Cade Skywalker). Also Bastila didn't leave the Order at all, instead she went into hiding to raise her son Vaner
Can basically have a conversation with eachother down there in darkness for 13,000 years before they figure it out and are able to emerge fully able to reconcile and able to kick all ass
It’s sad that the exile basically dies for nothing 😢
Kreia got proven right
The KOTOR games are underrated.
I love the idea of their being one jedi left who has to train her adult companions to become jedi and rebuild the order. Hopefully the new Rey trilogy will reprise this. Letting Finn or Poe become Jedi or letting her having to fight one last sith threat to the jedis return.
And once he is revived she just leaves him down there in total darkness to serve out a life sentence of trying to figure out why he can't do what she could do
Man, I really wonder if Jolee and Juhani (assuming the worldline is one where Revan was a Light Sider), plus Vima Sunrider, miraculously survived it due to fortunate circumstances stopping them from going to Katarr.
Say, any chance we'll get to see Darth Krayt's purge be explored too?
Either Vima or one of her children definitely did, as Vima Da-Boda is a distant descendant of hers
Kreia is Erin Kea. That isn't a "Conspiracy theory" it's LITERALLY just right there in the name. Kreia is a Mix of the names treia and Kea
Star Wars Content: *Hello There!!!!*
Can you do a video on Dark side Magic
I love how everyone calls Sidious the ultimate Sith Lord, when, in The Old Republic there was Darth Nihilus, a Sith Lord that could "EAT" entire planets theough the force....
Luke had annakins body frozen in Carbonite on a calamari ship before he burned vaders suit down on endor and then annakins dead frozen body is put down in the aquifer on jakku after 20 year she is able to revive annakin who now just looks like the dude at the end of revenge of the sith and still able to function like he has a full body with just pure force acting as his missing body parts invisible yet exact proportion ghostly
Nihilus, Sion and kreia have to be top 10 sith that weren’t sith of all time.
I think it's plausible to argue that the the purge was written out of history. You could even make the argument that the Jedi and Republic intentionally covered it up. Perhaps to hide their weakness and reassure the public everything was fine.
And there's a huge gap in time between KOTOR and TOR and then again TOR and the next major era we know much about.
Plenty of opportunity for records to be purged in other events.
Victory is written by the winners - and the Jedi did re-emerge. They themselves may have wanted to forget about such a dark time in their history.
I can think of a few reasons.
Well for 1) it was the only one of the three we know of that was not officially considered a success.
The Great Jedi Purge was considered successful with the enactment of Order 66 and the creation of the Galactic Empire. The surviving Jedi could do nothing but hide or die for 25 years till the Battle of Endor. Then it was up to Luke, a person that was not trained in the old order, to establish a New Jedi Order.
The One Sith's Jedi Purge was considered a success after both the massacre of Ossus, and the overthrow of the Fel Empire. Both the Jedi Order and the Imperial Knight had to go into hiding for about Ten years till they could unite to overthrow the One Sith's leader Darth Krayt. Then forming a Triumvirate to rule the galaxy.
The Sith Triumvirate's Jedi Purge as said by Kreia would not be consider successful till they killed the Jedi Exile. As she was The Last Jedi that had not been killed, converted, gone into hiding, or walked away from the Order. The Jedi Exile, Meetra Surik, was able to defeat the sith while training several students that went on to restore the Jedi Order, not form a new one. That then lasted for 4000 years. Not much known about her allows in-universe to faded into myth or legends much more easily as "a lone Jedi that fought against the sith and reestablished the order," to teach youngling to not give up hope.
2) While Bioware and Obsidian had a good relationship at the time, there were some on the staff that did not like they were making a sequel to their story. Among them, Drew Karpshyn the Senior writer for both Kotor and Swtor as well as the author of the Revan book as well as the Darth Bane trilogy (where Revan is the true creator of the Rule of Two concept.) From what I understand, he HATED Kotor 2 refused to ever play it and even when writing a book looked up any information he needed ignoring the rest. So the Exile in his hand is named Meetra Surik (of course we never learn Revan's real name) who fought in the Mandalorian Wars, defeat the Sith Triumvirate (who is most definitively not led by Revan's old master,) and was Revan's loyal Jedi lackey that was killed by Scourge. I want to point out her name was not mention (outside maybe a datacron lore) in Swtor till long after Drew was gone, even when she did appear. So when you have someone like that making the Swtor's base game, kotor 2 is lucky when it gets referenced at all.
3) LucasArts was not a fan of deconstruction Star Wars and they really didn't like when Kriea became the Fanbase's Patron Saint of "the Grey Side of The Force," nonsense. That became increasingly more accepted idea by fans after that game. Also not help the Exile is in the same role of re-establishing the order as Luke, and compared to Revan most of her info is more reading between the lines.
However, for good or for ill. Kotor 2 seems to be popular among writers for Disney Star Wars. *If for nothing else using it to justify all their deconstructions of Star Wars.* Chris Avellone was brought on as an advisor for Jedi Fallen Order. "Surik's Blade" is a phrased used in the High Republic; which I guess can be seen to be saying "Our Great Founder's Blade." Darth Nihlus was mentioned in the Vader Comics. Lesley Headland has stated she wishes to do a Tv series focus on Kriea. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if they used the fact that Meetra is canonically a women to justify why Luke Skywalker could not rebuild the Jedi order, but Rey Palpatine will succeed.
In short, the KotOR games have become a double-edged sword against all parties involved.
Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait WAIT! Brianna is Kreia's DAUGHTER?! WHAT?!
I've played KOTOR 2 at least 5 times, where is this implied?!
PLEASE DO KREAI/KAE THEORIES
I'm unable to discuss anything interesting
It’s likely a retcon since not even 30 years of fighting which pushed the Jedi order to near extinction during the prelude to SWTOR was able to reach the point of only 100 Jedi left in the galaxy, which I mean the Sith of KOTOR’s era were severely weaker than SWTOR era Sith and never reached Coruscant unlike the Sith of SWTOR’s era who were able to sack Coruscant and destroy the Jedi temple and killing most of the Jedi there.
The war in TOR is a very different beast though. The Jedi Purge spoken of in the video was the last of at least three catastrophes that happened in that era, as the effects of the burning of Ossus and Exar Kun's rebellion almost fifty years earlier and the more recent Jedi Civil War would still have been felt when this all went down.
@@matthewbreytenbach4483 still 30 years of constant fighting topped off with the Jedi temple being sacked with most Jedi there being killed is much more devastating considering Revan, Malak, nor the Sith Triumvirate ever made it close to Coruscant where most of the Jedi are. I’d say it’s more likely that there were only a few hundred Jedi knights around by the time of KOTOR II rather than Jedi as a whole since that leaves out younglings, padawans, non-combat Jedi, etc. It would be impossible to purge the Jedi from the galaxy without attacking the temple. That’s why Darth Angral attempted to destroy Tython as it would have the same effect as wiping out the Jedi temple on Coruscant. That could also explain why the Jedi didn’t learn from their failures during the KOTOR era, in fact it’s possible since we see the Jedi are already heavily militarized by the start of the great galactic war that that is a response to their non-interventionist mindset and them nearly being purged of all combat trained Jedi during the KOTOR period, however both would lead to Jedi falling to the dark side as too much war for a Jedi is not good for them. We in fact see this with Satele Shan who after decades of fighting and seeing the Jedi nearly exterminated not once but twice (by the Sith and Zakuul) start to think more like Atris and adopt some of Darth Marr’s ideas which I don’t know why they haven’t expanded on her possibly falling to the dark side but she seemingly is.
Either way I feel like it was a retcon as BioWare probably just didn’t like that aspect of KOTOR II. They love Nihlus, Kreia, Atris, and Sion but otherwise they seem to ignore KOTOR II like it never happened, but clearly in the lore it did. I’d wager if they ever do explain it it’ll probably either be that KOTOR II was exaggerating or it will be retconned to simply be Jedi Knights and not the order since the order is more than just Jedi Knights and the Temple wasn’t attacked.
@@iterationfackshet1990
The Jedi didn't live on Coruscant during that time. They had a temple there but their capital was on Ossus, and they had a few hours at most to evacuate before the nova hit.
Then they only had a bit less than forty years to recover before the Revanchist movement and following Jedi Civil War devastated their ranks.
By the start of the Sith invasion they've had three hundred years to recover from the events of KotOR, and are also a bit more militarized as you said, so they were on a much better footing from the onset than their forebears were
@@matthewbreytenbach4483 Ossus was not the Jedi capital and the Jedi indeed had their temple on Coruscant during the time of KOTOR which can be seen in KOTOR II and KOTOR I even says the High Council is in the temple on Coruscant. They indeed had started this after the Great Sith War but that wasn’t due to their capital being on Ossus, at that time it was still on Tython. Instead it’s due to the loss of the great Jedi Library on Ossus that they decided to move their capital to the Jedi temple on Coruscant which had already been somewhat built but was further built on to the form it would be until it was destroyed in the great galactic war, but KOTOR I and KOTOR II confirm it was the Jedi capital at that time which is important as neither Revan, Malak, nor the Triumvirate were able to reach Coruscant. That means a Jedi purge of the scale claimed in KOTOR II is simply impossible.
@@iterationfackshet1990
The Jedi abandoned Tython after the Force Wars in the 25,500s BBY.
The capital may have moved to Coruscant by the time of KotOR, but it was still on Ossus at the time Exar Kun blew a star up next to it, and that's when I'm talking about when I mention Ossus
It's entirely possible that the Jedi were almost wiped out though. As said in the video there was a meeting on the Miralukan homeworld which most of the remaining Jedi went to, and even if there were still a few younglings and their minders hidden on Coruscant then that would still be most of the Jedi dead. As I said, they still hadn't recovered, and we're shown in the first issue of the KotOR comic that some people were hesitant to give their children to the Jedi because of the Great Sith War.
EDIT
I had misread one of your earlier comments to include Kun in the list of people that hadn't made it to Coruscant, so if there seems to be a disconnect between what you said and what I said then that's why. However my point still stands
Exar Kyun
Corey, please slow down ❤
👍
It wasn't forgotten. Disney decided to discard the expanded universe. There are plenty of books, comic books, and games that cover all this. And are much better than anything Disney has put out.
This whole video is about Legends. That's why every book and game I talked about are from Legends. There are not multiple books and comics that cover all this in Legends, that is the point of the video.
@@CoreysDatapad There were comic books and books that covered this era. And as far as I'm concerned, "legends" is the real canon. 31 years of games, books, comic books, and shows. Not the garbage Disney has put put.
There needs to be a remake of both KOTOR games. Have the guys who made Jedi: Survivor and Fallen Order make it.
You can get both of the original games for cheap and they even run on potato level iPhones.
And once he is revived she just leaves him down there in total darkness to serve out a life sentence of trying to figure out why he can't do what she could do
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I'm unable to discuss anything interesting