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@@samuelkohi4415 Good question. So Feige has explained that he considers the MCU to be the live-action adaptation of the comics. Thus, they can both be 616 since they are not part of the same multiverse.
I see it like this: The whole multiverse is a giant forest with each hypothetical tree representing an alternate universe. All the branches are the offshoot alternate histories stemming from a common “sacred” timeline. EDIT: Yep, exactly like I thought
@@eddieshannon6880 I see it more as the forest is the multiverse with each tree representing one of an infinite number of expanding historical universes
@@eddieshannon6880 Could be...but I tend to agree with @eddieshannon6880. I view it as the forest is the multiverse with each tree representing one of an infinite number of expanding historical universes. And ofc each tree has it's only infinitely expanding branches, including the 616 tree with its branches.
It seems this whole concept fits directly with ownership of intellectual properties. Multi-Verse (Sony, MCU), a separate origin point for each however more importantly, different timelines for the different stories they tell allowing Flex in the story. It allows us not to be fitted towards one continous story.... Basically with Loki, we are now allowed one-shot stories without everyone getting upset in continuity.
This. Makes. So. Much. Sense! To add to this a little bit, I think the reason why incursions happen might be because of the infinity stones, because in this model every separate universe has its own set of infinity stones and therefore it's own physics and whatnot, so if a connecting link between two separate universes is established (like the exiled one shows in quantumania) it results in both of the universes being destroyed since neither can coexist with the other due to their infinity stones, and therefore their whole realities, being different enough that there's no possible chance of assimilation and therefore forces of the 12 infinity stones (6 from one universe and 6 from the other) fighting one another results in both realities coming to an end. and another thing, I think that when a character (say, Doctor strange from 616) initially travels to another universe (818 i think it was?) the link between the two universes doesn't immediately get established, I like to think that the connecting link forms over time and therefore that's why knowledgeable characters are always in such a hurry to get everyone sent back to their respective universes, because if they take too long and the link is fully formed then the differing sets of infinity stones will start clashing and result in an incursion that wipes out both universes. lastly, I think the loom had a dual purpose, of course as HWR said very clearly it was a failsafe to make sure that if too many branches occur then it'd explode and destroy everything but the sacred timeline, but I think that Victor Timely's explanation also fits because it's other purpose was to allow many different timelines to still exist in the 616 universe by turning them from chaotic strands into a tightly woven rope, a rope that looped back around to the "end of time" where alioth destroyed it or converted it back into raw time, and so with the help of the loom as well as the TVA preventing any branches going past the red line (going past the red line indicating that they'd be in danger of coming in contact with another universe) helped ensure that the 616 universe itself could have many different timelines within itself. and, okay this is the real last one, I think Loki's "tree" is the same tightly woven-together rope but now all the strands have been freed apart, and whilst the creators did likely cause a lot of headaches by showing a vertical odd looking tree after having normalized clean blue/white lines, and I think it would be fair to assume that if laid horizontally and with all of the space dust from the loom explosion cleared, it would look something like the "Tree" that we saw in Across the Spiderverse. The only reason why it has gone from single line with stands to a blossoming tree is because Loki is letting it branch out as much as it likes rather than pruning it and stuff like the TVA was doing. chaotic Loki letting the chaotic universe expand in chaotic ways, just as the chaotic universe had wanted since it created so many Lokis to cause chaos. one last last last thing, I wonder if Reed Richards' line about "boundaries between universes" just refers to the empty space and the near complete lack of happenstance of two universes just getting a link established between them, OR if there are other security measures like the 616 loom that other universes have at some points also implemented for safety at some point.
Wow...like, just wow. That was great stuff. I absolutely loved it all. I think you nailed it on everything you said. I really, really love the idea that the incursions occur because of the infinity stones being so different in each alternate universe. That is so cool! Anyway, thanks so much for watching the vid and taking the time to write all of that out. It was so much fun to read!
I think there is a difference between completely separate animated universes in MoM that change how the travelers are presented (for example physically turning Dr. Strange into noir and cube) and the different timelines in Across the Spiderverse where characters do not significantly change styles when swapping between universes (Spider-Ham sticks to always being cartoony). The distinction is slight, but in a MoM noir style universe, if a Rubik’s cube would be added from another universe, it would swap to greyscale as opposed to a Spiderverse type noir universe where a cube would retain its properties of color. It could be due to some odd alternate Big Bang shenanigans or it could be due to the different, incomplete travel of the Spiderverse franchise where things glitch as if the foreign people were not “translated” into the correct style. MoM universe travel seems more natural than the technology of the Spiderverse where they essentially put a band-aid on to fix the glitching issue.
Right...I think that's a great theory. I also wonder if the means of traveling thru the universe has something to do with it. Dr. Strange traveled thru the multiverse with America Chavez and so they changed to the physics of each universe. But Miguel and his team use those devices of his so they retain the physics of their original universe. Lots of cool possibilities for how it could work!
It makes me wonder if the “jurisdiction” of the TVA - at least as we’ve seen it - is only 616. If all Kang has done is to isolate 616 from any alternate universe, then there’s no need for the TVA to control branches from any other alternate universe. To be effective, all the TVA needs to do is keep 616 branches away from branches rooted in another alternate universe, and make sure that no other Kang variant shows up who could connect to another alternate universe. Though the TVA might be aware of them, they only stay in their own 616 universe.
In the series (season 2) finale, He Who Remains told Loki "My variants are 'already out there'." Out there, is a bit vague, but it sounds like they've already discovered the sacred timeline, if not infiltrated it.
I did always wonder why everyone at the TVA is human, and they only seem to hire people from Earth, and have a huge Earth focus in general. As if Earth and humans are all that matter in an infinite universe/multiverse. It always made me wonder if we were just seeing the "Earth Division" of the TVA, and they had different parts we've never seen, focused on different planets and different species, etc.
@@matt_canon I think the fact that he said it while the loom was still intact means they are out there and if Loki destroys the loom then the Kangs will find the 616 universe. Just my take on it, though.
@@ShizuruNakatsu That's a good point about the TVA. I wonder if HWR just decided to pull them all from the Sacred Timeline and he chose earth as the main place to get them. Interesting question indeed!
16:44 this ties my Fox Branched Timeline theory together perfectly. X 1-3 & The Wolverine were the anchor universe which branched following the events of Origins (thanks to Deadpool retroactively interfering) then branched even crazier maybe into a full on Multiverse thanks to Days of Future Past. Marvel might add XMen 97’ to this multiverse too can’t wait.
THANK YOU you for making this video it was so nice that everything makes sense and links together! I think that it's not difficult for Marvel to explain it, they just need to explain the concepts, and everything will make sense (and of course put everything together and don't change it in the movies)
Right! I agree 100%...the key is to focus on the concepts and not get hung up on the terms. Well said. Thanks so much for watching the vid and sharing your thoughts. Really do appreciate it!
This explains everything so well, me and my friend were going back and forth with how the finale made any sense and I think you got it down perfectly. I just wish Marvel was a little more concrete on its definitions
Thanks so much for the positive feedback on the vid. I really appreciate that. And I agree, I do wish Marvel was abit more careful on the terms and I hope that happens going forward.
Man i am glad that you made this vid. I had a comment thread in which i stated my postition on this which litteraly had 100s of replies saying i am wrong without actual counter arguments. As i was gettin tired of this i decided to write like 5 paragrapghs or so explaining step by step what happen in the loki series and why it wouldnt make sense for the tree to be the multiverse. But still only comments on how i was "wrong duh". Man people cam be annoying. As said glad you made this vid. You earned your sub.
So great to have you subbed on the channel...sounds like we think alot alike. Yeah, this makes so much sense to me, but I have also had people saying that Loki's tree is the entire multiverse and sometimes with some fairly unkind comments along the way. So I really wanted to put this vid together to try to lay everything out. Thx so much for watching the vid and leaving your feedback. Truly appreciate it!
I’m really glad you take the time to do these videos cuz I really just want to be able to enjoy discussing these things with everyone on the same page.
Thanks so much for the positive feedback. Yeah, that's the exact reason I do the vids. My hope is to get as many people as possible on the same page. And I also update the model as new info arrives or if people point out errors. So I promise to keep updating it as we learn more!
I totally agree with you. We've been hung up on the terminology. Disregard the terminology and look at the concept and it gets super clear. Now I want to re-watch the whole show and see if this makes it clearer!
Honestly these videos are incredibly A-coded but i'm all here for it, I love how in depth you are on your analysis and even give perceived contradictions proper explanations.
Thanks so much...really appreciate hearing that. I had alot of fun putting this vid together. I think the model is finally looking really solid. Can't wait to see where things go from here with the multiverse saga!
Thanks! Yeah, it's been fun to slowly evolve the model as we've been given more facts and also as I've read the comments people leave which often have fantastic points to consider. Really appreciate you watching the vid and sharing your positive feedback on it!
Thanks so much for the positive feedback on the vid. Yeah, I do hope that Marvel finds a way to explain these concepts as we move further into the multiverse saga. I'm sure it can be done, but it is hard to do without really digging into the concepts before trying to land on terms. Can't wait to see where we go from here!
Wow man, I’ve just finished watching your last 2 Loki videos and I gotta say, Fantastic theories!!! I was really having trouble listening to my own theories about the finale, before watching your videos because I really thought I was the only one having these complex but yet interesting theories. But I was wrong. And I learned so much more. Just earned a sub.
That's so nice of you to say! Yeah, sounds like we were thinking alot alike regarding the finale. I loved putting the videos together for Loki. Such an amazing show. And after finished the show breakdowns, I did a video on What If and goes abit more into how that show fits into the multiversal model. If you haven't seen it, you might enjoy it as well: th-cam.com/video/imjWCRQsHkE/w-d-xo.html. I'm excited to see how the second season goes and also really excited for the multiverse saga in general. It's great to hear that Waldron is doing the writing for Kang Dynasty and Secret Wars, as he's a fantastic writer.
As much as I generally dislike how they've handled the development of the multiverse plot and the explanations there of, I think this is a really clever deduction of the facts. The picture's a whole lot clearer now, and I think everything you've said in the video holds up to scrutiny. Something I'm surprised you didn't mention in the video as a point of evidence towards your branched timeline multiverse vs alternate universe multiverse theory is the fact that the alternate Gamora from 2014 didn't cause an incursion and indeed seems to be living a contented life on the main 616 branch. Great video as always, though, keep it up!
Thanks so much for the positive feedback on the vid. I totally agree, Marvel hasn't done a good job of describing the multiverse, other than Waldron's amazing description in the MoM Assembled episode...but that wasn't even an official MCU entry. However, they have done a surprisingly good job of making all of the logic fit. So I have to think they are using the same basic model of the multiverse that's in the video, but they are just struggling to find the words to describe it in the shows and movies. And I love your point about Gamora. Believe it or not, I did a follow-on video where I went into the rules around What If abit further, and I mention Gamora in that vid: th-cam.com/video/imjWCRQsHkE/w-d-xo.html. So we are thinking along the same lines. It also explains why Black Widow didn't cause an incursion when the Watcher dropped her in Captain Carter's universe in S1's finale. It really all does make sense, which is quite an achievement by Marvel, even if they backed into it along the way.
You're awesome man! I've been trying to figure out the MCU multiverse and it's relation to the wider Marvel multiverse and this makes so much sense. Thanks
Awesome...I'm so glad that helped. It sure helped me to lay it out like that. If you are interested, I did a follow-on video going abit deeper into the rules around What If, since season 2 is arriving soon. It made things even clearer for me. You can check it out here, if interested: th-cam.com/video/imjWCRQsHkE/w-d-xo.html. And thx so much for sharing your positive feedback. I truly appreciate it!
Thanks so much for the positive feedback. Yeah, I love to do deep dives into a concept like Loki's tree. It helps me get a better view of where things are going from here. Really appreciate you watching the vid and leaving your thoughts!
I don't really know what's gonna happen with the whole multiverse / kang storyline but the discussion about it, like this video, is really interesting!
Yeah, I suspect it's tough to try to explain this in the movies/shows...so I'd love a special presentation where we just have Reed Richards in front of a chalkboard going over it all. That would be amazing!
Thank you so much! I didn’t catch the subtle difference between “branched” and “alternate” at all lol And your explanation is so complete which makes everything very clear!
This video was everything I needed and then some. Brilliant job with breaking down and Flowing from topic to topic smoothly. Definitely adding some of the bullet Points to my notes! 📝
The multiverse did exist during the first Doctor Strange film because the Kang of Quantumania was hanging in the quantum realm with Janet Van Dyne years before it. Because the LOKI series takes place outside of time, TVA time does not follow along with 616 time. That's potentially also an argument for the Loki tree having always been the same tree as Yggdrasil with him being both inspired by Yggdrasil AND creating it, like the TVA handbook with OB and Victor.
Yeah, I agree that with things happening at the end of time, it seems that the Loki series could retroactively impact the entire MCU. But based on the timeline book, it seems Loki's two seasons happen between Endgame and What If. So it's kinda timey wimey in how Feige has made it work, but that seems to be how he's laid it out. But yeah, I totally get what you are saying and your logic does make sense. It just seems the MCU has treated Loki as only impacting the MCU from Endgame forward. Kinda wild. Anyway, thx so much for watching the vid and sharing your thoughts. Truly appreciate it!
This is exactly how I perceived the multiverse concept in my head. This is the best explinantion of mcu multiverse concept put in a video, it's better explain than marvel studio
Thanks so much for the positive feedback! I had alot of fun putting that vid together. My mind just works better when I lay all the pieces on the table and try to go through them in an orderly fashion. Really appreciate you watching the vid and leaving your thoughts!
I was never hung up on the terminology here but I enjoy your breakdown and clarifications. You presented questions I never focused on because I felt like the branches were always off of 616 (Sacred Timeline) and the multiverse was separate all together from the existence of the stadium Kang; I found the best definitions off the Multiverse in Quantumania. But as these stories progress the verbiage was getting a little loose! So thank you for the visual breakdown-definitely how my brain learns!
You are very kind...thanks for that feedback on the vid. Yeah, I do feel the terms are abit too loose, so I hope they tighten that up abit as the multiverse saga moves along. And yeah, this vid is also how my brain works. I have to lay all the pieces out on the table and try to put them together in as logical a fashion as I can. Thx again for watching the vid and for sharing your thoughts...truly do appreciate it!
I found the 616-adjacent line to be by far the most confusing line they've used yet. I'm fine in general with using synonyms to describe a noun. That's probably just writers being bored. But when I first heard the line at the end of the finale, I assumed they were talking about a different Kang variant.
I agree, it was a really weird way to phrase it...Mobius called the Quantum Realm a "616 adjacent realm". My theory is the TVA is focusing primarily on 616, but since Scott, Hope and the gang entered the quantum realm and encountered Kang, it was something they tracked. And since it's the basement of the multiverse, the QR technically speaking is adjacent to every universe, so it was probably the best way to refer to it. They likely had been keeping an eye on the QR due to learning about it when the Avengers did the time heist. So that's what I think was going on in that scene. Thanks so much for watching the vid and sharing your thoughts. Really appreciate it!
Conceptually what you're saying makes sense. When it comes to the alternate universes, the cube universe and paint universe make more sense because of the physics, but then 838 becomes strange. They treat 838 almost like a "what if" scenario, where they seem to have the same origin, but just slightly different details happened. If the alternate universes are stacked on top of each other, and have different physics, 838 would make MORE sense to treat it as a branched timeline, but I don't think that's what they're trying to do. ALSO! You should address the numbered universes themselves if you get a chance. The TVA is aware of 616, which means they are aware of other numbers as well. However, they seem somewhat unaware of the other "alternate" multiverses... or are they? It's a bit unclear. From a meta perspective, because they use multiverses to describe both "what if" scenarios and other studio IPs like Fox, Sony etc... they try to describe two different things with the same function. It's probably going to remain pretty murky.
So I was thinking recently about 838 and whether it could have been a branch. Honestly they aren’t really all that similar, imo. Maria became Captain Marvel, Peggy Carter became Captain Britain, Thanos was defeated, Doctor Strange was killed, the X-Men exist, inhumans exist, the fantastic four exists, Wanda has no powers, Mordo isn’t off chasing sorcerers, and the illuminati exists. But that said, I’m sure many alternate universes still have some of the same looking characters in them. But I do think you are right that Marvel wants 838 and 616 to be alternate universes so that they can create incursions down the line. As for the numbering, I think HWR chose the 616 numbering. Perhaps when all the Kangs originally met and were working together, they came up with the numbering and HWR's universe was 616, so he used it for the sacred timeline. And yeah, I do fear things could get murky if they don't do a better job of picking their terms. Good point!
@@AbitofEverything4U So for the Kang's and 838 Illuminati and TVA it's 616. For the Captain Britain Corps and Spider-Society it's 199999. Man I'd love to get them all together to argue which is the more legitimate number designation!
Heres the way i look at it. A timeline is a collection of events. A universe is a collection of timelines. A multiverse is a collection of universes. Branches are when a new nexus event happens and now theres a new series of events to bundle with the other ones. Assuming that these branches take up some kind of physical space, i.e. the visuals in loki, incursions happen when your branch grows into another timeline. Using the plant analogy, if you put two big plants in one small pot, one or both of those plants are going to die.
Yep, I love that analogy. The only thing I would add is that there is a difference between universes that are branched off another universe due to a nexus event (i.e. the branches we saw in Loki, or the branches we saw in the time heist, or the branches we saw in What If) and between universes that that are completely separate (838, paint, cube, animated, etc). So the incursions only occur between alternate universes, which are the two plants in the same pot in your analogy. But otherwise, I agree 100% with everything you said. I just made a follow-on video about What If that picks up right after the concepts in this vid, in case you are interested: th-cam.com/video/imjWCRQsHkE/w-d-xo.html. And thanks so much for leaving your comments. Loved reading them all!
You worded my theory better than I could, after your video saying about multiple big bangs the first thought I had was that a branched timeline has multiple universes but there are also multiple individual timelines with their own branches, when the branches connect from one timeline to another, it rips the space that keeps them in their own "universe"
Great feedback. Yup, it definitely sounds like we are thinking the same things about what Loki did and where things go from here. So much fun to consider how it all fits together!
Really well done pulling all the sources together! The only part I'm still debating internally is that _[my variants] are already out there_ line. He might have meant those from alternate universes, but he also might have meant his own, from branched timelines. Or both. Granted, his own branch-variants might have not had the time to become Kangs, but who really knows. For all we know, the Conqueror could have been his branch-variant.
Yeah, my theory is that HWR was referring to those Kangs outside the loom, as it seems HWR had the loom configured to blow up before any of the branches inside the loom would manifest into a new Kang. ofc, the goal was to prune them immediately but HWR probably anticipated a situation where things got out of control, so he made sure the loom blew before there was a threat inside the loom. But just my head canon on that.
@@AbitofEverything4U The fail safe was there specifically in case of the meltdown, no? For when there are too many branches. I don't think it was ever said it reacted to potential Kangs within those branches. And before we reached the meltdown, there was a quite a lot of time for branching, so arguably, some Kangs may have escaped the branches before they were pruned by the failsafe. (This interpretation kinda depends on how long would it take for his branch-variants to escape which is not clear, given that we're not sure how fast those branches grow and we don't have clarity on what "time passes differently at the TVA" means exactly (there could be a difference between how fast time passes for people within timelines and for people at the TVA)) Also, Loki tried to save the Loom for subjective centuries of repeating certain time sequences, which might have unleashed additional Kangs repeatedly, per every one of these cycles.
@@krzyszwojciechIt was never explicitly mentioned that he pruned the branched timelines to not allow different Kangs to show up from that branched universe. He had said that if they kill him, an infinite number of them will show up (from the Arena we saw) and will ultimately destroy the multiverse.
@@krzyszwojciech I mean, we are definitely into theories at this point, so any theory could work, but my assumption is that HWR wanted to avoid at all costs having his variants appear inside the loom. So he would be sure that it reset before any appeared. As for Loki, he was looping back to the same place in time, so it didn't make any time lapse for everyone else and most importantly for the branching itself. Just my theories though.
@@dybiosol It wasn't explicitly stated, but Loki implied it when he was telling Mobius that avoiding new Kangs was what HWR was doing by pruning. He said that in S2's opener to Mobius when they met outside the war room. Also, Waldron said it in a quote, which ofc isn't canon, but since Waldron wrote Loki S1 he's likely telling us what he intended to have happen in the show. So that's why I'm assuming HWR's main goal was to prevent any new Kang's from appearing in the loom.
I now realized in ep6 he who remains give a reason why realities were spaghettifying, it was the temporal loom deleting(pruning) those branch timelines springing from the sacred timeline, when it was destroyed.
Yeah… the series was definitely a little more complicated than it needed to be. I think where the series was strongest this season was in the acting and in the character growth. But the overall Multiversal lore was pretty confusing.
Remember: “Don’t climb trees”. I hope you are not offended by my joke. I had to comment since this video is about Yggdrasil and the intricate symbolism that trees and tree branches played in this series, it seemed like an appropriate reference to make. From the concept of branched timelines, the tree with No branches on the wall in the background of the McDonalds Sylvie worked at on her branched timeline, of course the aforementioned Hunter B-15 variant’s words to the little girl she puts the cast on in Episode 5, to Loki’s Yggdrasil & the revamped TVA slogan of let’s grow together. Nevertheless, I sincerely hope you get better and heal quickly.
Ikr? It's been wild trying to nail down the model as I was too focused on the terms (which are admittedly thrown around pretty loosely in the movies) and it wasn't until I focused on the concepts that it became so clear. And yeah, it did indeed turn out to be a hybrid of the two previous models. Crazy stuff!
@@AbitofEverything4U im deeply puzzled bu the relationship between the one who remains and the exile, they both have the same problem with the others (that they cause chaos) and they both end up isolated. Probably they re variants of the same universe.
I think what Marvel tries to say is that the branches are timelines that branch off of the main 616 universe. And that 838 is another universe with it's own timeline branches. So that's how you have one big multiverse of multiple universes with multiple timelines. That's why some universes look so different from MCU 616. That's Why we got a Tobey Meguire Spider-Man in 2002 and a Tom Holland Spider-Man in 2016.
There's still a bit of a problem with terminology, I think. We have universes, the ones with separate Big Bangs are labeled as alternate universes. Each universe can and will branch to create branched universes, which are connected to their main universe. An universe with branches isn't a mere universe - it's a multiverse. Which basically means that there's no such thing as an universe. They're all multiverses. Each alternate universe has branches, so it's never just an universe, it's always a multiverse. And each branched universe branches even further and creates it's own branches... It would be better to have separate terms for a multiverse that is a universe with branches, and a multiverse that is a collection of such aforementioned multiverses.
Good point! Yes, the real key is that there is a fundamental difference between universes that share a common big bang and are branched off each other versus a second set of universes with their own big bang and their own set of branched universes. Multiverse becomes a tough pin down since you are right that each universe is its own multiverse as soon as it branches. No wonder, Marvel has a hard time deciding what terms to use!
20 years ago, when I moved into a townhome in a brand-new neighborhood, I noticed a row of trees planted a few feet apart from each other along the street. They looked really nice back then. But over the years, despite the maintenance crews pruning the branches every so often, those trees just kept growing beyond control, and the branches ended up overcrowding each other and causing incursions between the trees, so instead of a nice little row of separate trees, it looks like one huge mess now. I guess that's what's starting to happen with the multiverse.
Ok so excellent fkn video man for once i have ZERO things to add lmao its perfect explanation and u changed my mind on a lot of things and made me edit my marvel notes and lists haha, good stuff man its all makes perfect sense. However, I do have a request. Can u make a video explaining the multiversal beings that seem to watch over the entire multiverse (branches and alternates), such as The Watcher. Like if the Watcher is multiversal and he is depicted in the same throne room as Eon, Death, Eternity, Living Tribunal, and the Celestial One Above All, that means they are all multiversal then, not tied to 616. But then where does that leave all the lesser watchers and lesser celestials and stuff, are they only universal like the infinity stones? I would love a video where u get into that man.
Thanks so much for the positive feedback on the vid. Had a lot of fun putting it together. As for those higher beings, that a great question. I am really curious to know which of the beings are one per alternate universe (i.e. one watcher for 616 and its branches and a separate watcher for 838 and its branches) or if there are beings that are over all of the alternate universes in the entire multiverse. I'll give that some thought, as I agree, it would be a very cool vid!
One thing I’d like to suggest about Doctor Strange and other films talking about the multiverse taking place before Loki season 2, we need to keep in mind that while the anchor point for that version of Loki happening as the result of Endgame, now the timeline has been allowed to branch that means those branches can now occur any point in history. It's somewhat confusing to say that Loki takes place when it does because it is mostly separated from the natural flow of time. The movies have always been set in a reality in which the multiverse existed. You can look at Loki as a prequel to the MCU because once he did what he did it was always done
Yeah, I'm with you that I do wonder at times if the Loki S1 and S2 events end up retroactively impacting the previous MCU entries. However, I can only assume that Feige isn't going that direction based on how the timeline book is laid out. So I'm totally with you that they could have used that as the explanation, but I think they are implying that the sacred timeline was only impacted by Loki after Endgame and not before. Very timey wimey, it seems!
Excellent video! Based on this info my head canon is that the Netflix Series’, Agent Carter, and Agents of Shield are all branched timelines/universes anchored to the 616 universe. And that the X-Men and Tobey/Andrew Spider-Man franchises are all alternate universes.
I would also argue that the X-Men franchise contains several movies that are set in branched universes/timelines anchored to a central universe. For instance, I think continuity errors in First Class and Days of Future Past point to them being in a branch from the OG 3 movies. And movies like Deadpool and Origins Wolverine would also be branched universes. So basically, every X-Men movie is anchored to one universe, but there’s just a lot of branches. I think that’s a neat way to head canon away some plot holes 😂
I love it! I agree 100% with what you said. That is a perfect application of the model for the pre-Disney+ shows, for the X-men unviverse, and for the Tobey/Andrew universes. And yeah, that X-men universe has a TON of branches. I mean, Deadpool created about 30 of them himself...lol!
I'm concerned about the reports suggesting a potential replacement of Kang with Dr. Doom. While I acknowledge Doom as a formidable villain, my preference is to stick with Kang. We've invested a significant amount of time in Kang's character, and I would rather not see anyone else in that role, especially considering Jonathan Majors' portrayal.
I agree 100%. I'm hoping those reports are premature and that they find a good way to wrap up the Kang storyline in The Kang Dynasty. I'm totally down with Doom stealing Kang's tech and becoming the big bad of Secret Wars but I think it would be really weird to pivot completely away from Kang at this point. We'll learn more about Majors' legal case soon, and perhaps we'll get our answers then.
25:08 They are not discussing HWR, as one Kang mentioned, "So, the exiled one is dead" and it is the Kang from Quantumania who is exiled, not HWR. HWR, in fact, concealed himself and the 616 from them.
So, I made a separate vid on that, in case you are interested: th-cam.com/video/-_ayPVJwDOA/w-d-xo.html. I think Marvel was being sneaky with the misdirect regarding who the exiled one truly is.
Yooo this has just hit me like a brick, It's the entire multiverse. It's showed in Loki season 1 episode 5, There's heaps of different types of loki in the Void at the end of time, including an alligator, and boastful Loki is an adult, his nexus event wasn't existing. The temporal loom weaves time into a rope, a rope has more than one strand or thread, this TVA has jurisdiction over the animal universes as well as paint kang, and 838, and any mutant universes. And at the end if it was only 616, he would have just grabbed one timeline and let it branch, all the separate timelines loki grabbed are different universes and is letting them branch like a tree, This hit me hard and now there's no doubt in my mind that Loki is the God of the multiverse. And there's no way he who remains hasn't met paint kang, but I'm pretty sure everytime kang time travels in the comic he creates a new time variant, and that's why there are so many Sorry this was long
Thanks so much for the feedback on the vid. So, for me, it seems that they have indicated from the beginning of Loki S1 to the end of Loki S2 that the loom is just 616 and its branches. All of the labeling of the sacred timeline and its branches from the first episode to the last has been 616. But you raise a great question about the Loki variants. I made a short vid that discusses that situation, if you are interested: th-cam.com/video/nb91pLa9hIY/w-d-xo.html You might check it out, if you get a moment. As for all the branches that Loki grabs, the reason he grabbed so many is that there were a ton of branches in the loom at that point. If he just grabbed one, it would have meant the others died. So he grabbed all the 616 branches that had been multiplying and that's what forms the tree. The biggest reason I think Loki didn't grab the other universes is that it means he'd have paint universes and cube universes in the same tree. And most importantly, we know that two separate universes an cause incursions (such 838 and 616 causing potential incursions). So Loki would be creating incursions in his own tree if he grabbed both. Anyway, my feeling is that the tree is just 616 and its many branches, but hopefully Marvel will keep giving us more info on things as the multiverse saga continues on. Thanks so much for watching the vid and sharing your thoughts. I truly appreciate it!
@AbitofEverything4U the way I see it, 838 has its own sacred timeline, as does paint Kang, only one of the infinite kangs can be "he who remains", that guy is going to account for other universe's kangs too, so he had pruned off all the other branches that result in a kang for those universes, but they all seem to get one timeline in the multiverse, within the Loom. Loki won't be creating incursions, but I don't think he would be stopping them either, his goal is to let the universe exist without interference from a tyrannical bureaucracy. Let's just go outside in-universe lore for a moment, Kevin Feige said all this is canon in a multiverse capacity, so in secret wars, everything is fair game I think the only thing outside Loki's multiverse might be the "arachnohumanoid poly multiverse" in ATSV that was outside of Loki's multiverse, Loki has all those different orgin points in his tree, In the end of the series when when the quantamania incident is brought up, it's 616 adjacent, which confirms to me that they have number designations for the different universes, so they have access to all the universes and their branches, otherwise i think they would have said "sacred timeline" rather than 616
Hmmm...well, I'm not sure I agree, but that's totally fine if we don't see it the same. There's no doubt that it was left up to interpretation. So I suspect there will be lots of different theories out there. My hope is that at some point, Marvel gives us a firm answer as we move further and further into the multiverse saga. I truly do appreciate you sharing your theories. I love to hear what fellow MCU fans are thinking!
A couple things: First i am really excited to see 616 as it appears alongside the other alternate universes. I hypothesize that it will still look kinda circular just imagine the image of ýggdrasil on a sheet of paper that is curved into a circle. I have nothing to back that up, i just think Marvel likes its circular imagery so i hypothesize when next we see a diagram like Kang made in QM which displayed (i think) 2 alt-unis, it might display ýggdrasil as one of them but curved to be at least vaguely circular. Second, i am still waffling on What If... either branched or alt. There is the imagery in the timeline book, the several times they said the word branch which both appear to infer branched feom 616. But then theres the fact that Gamora's infinity crusher not working on Ultrons Infinity Stones as they were calibrated to her uni not his. Its not definitive but it can be read that the stones were so inherently different from Gamora's uni. But also ultrons stones were usable outside his uni when they dont at the tva. But does the tva count the same way? Or did they not work for the same reason Lokis powers didnt work? But then theres the interview that mentions nexus points would have likely been used if they knew... I waffle back and forth. Theres too many contradictions for me to make a decision.
Great points about Gamora's stone crusher. Honestly, I've never understood why it didn't work and yet the stones do work across universes. However, I think it's more important that the stones do work across universes (due to them being branches from the same original universe) and I'd rather write off Gamora's stone crusher not working since a branched universe has subtle differences and maybe that was the issue? Also, if What If is branches it actually explains why Black Widow could be placed in the Captain Carter universe w/o creating an incursion. It's the same reason Gamora hasn't created an incursion yet after coming from 2014. In fact, it would explain why the Guardians of the Multiverse being in the same place didn't create incursions. So there are a ton of reasons that it works better to have it all be one universe with branches. So that's why I am theorizing that. But I agree, it isn't crystal clear yet.
My husband made a great point recently... why is it an either or situation? They never say that each universe is from the same or different origin. It's quite possible that they're a mix between alt universes and 616 branched universes. Since the watcher is truly multiversal there's nothing to say that he limited himself to just alt unis. Honestly I like that idea a lot.
Yeah, that could very well be the case. The only reason I wonder if they are all branches off of 616 is that's how they showed it in the image from the timeline book. But I do agree, anything's possible with Marvel!
According to me, the loom was a fail safe which prevented the sacred timeline from branching to infinite universes, in HWR's loom you have to keep pruning the timelines or the loom will get destroyed with the load of infinite branch timelines which will also result in destruction of the sacred timeline......Loki is now acting as a loom, a loom that can allow the branch timelines to exist without destroying the sacred timeline
I think HWR explained it that the sacred timeline will never be destroyed, because if the loom overloads, the failsafe kicks in and the resets it back to be just the sacred timeline. So HWR used the loom to hide from the rest of the multiverse and that's why he set things up that way. But I do agree that Loki is now letting the branches expand infinitely as he isn't trying to keep things contained by the loom. Thx so much for watching the vid and sharing your thoughts. Really appreciate it!
I didn't expect that in this video I would get the most comprehensive explanation of MCU Multiverse logic I've seen yet... I do wish though it wouldn't be so difficult to explain because Marvel would just make it make more sense on its own ;D
Ikr? We shouldn't have to work so much to explain how the multiverse works. My hope for the MCU going forward is that they find a way to explain it very clearly. In fact, I'm even more excited about What If, after I got a better understanding of the multiversal model. If you haven't seen my vid on the What If rules that I made right after the Loki tree vid, then you might enjoy it: th-cam.com/video/imjWCRQsHkE/w-d-xo.html. Thx so much the positive feedback and also for becoming a supporter of the channel. I truly appreciate it!
I find trying to put Loki in place of events on the sacred timeline difficult, because everyone says it's after endgame/infinity war (even marvel have said themselves) but, it follows Loki immediately following the events of the battle of New York in 2012, and the whole series is meant to take place over the course of like 2 weeks (before the look starts to break and Loki spends centuries learning physics maths etc, so technically the branching of the timeline (when Sylvie kills He Who Remains) should have started in 2012-2013 latest surely?? Then Loki (becomes the loom) centuries later forming the tree
Yeah, it's tough to place something like the Loki series. I think the key is that Marvel feels the events of the series don't impact the MCU until after the events of Endgame. So that's the important timeline thing to consider. Beyond that, it's anyone's guess how to explain the timey wimey nature of the show and its placement.
This makes a ton of sense- I applaud the mental gymnastics it took to explain this plainly. My own headcanon for years was that the dark dimension had to be fundamentally different from our own universe because it lacked any sense of time. This would have then had to mean that time was not a part of its initial singularity like it was for the MCU 616, meaning it would be completely separate from our own reality. Dormammu craves our universe for the energy that his lacks. Doctor Strange 2016 would then be technically the first MCU incursion deliberately inflicted by Dormammu because he feeds on universes, destroying them as an incursion would. This would also explain why drawing power from the dark dimension was so dangerous. Not that Dormammu would be let in but that, to an unknowledgeable or unskilled sorcerer, it could literally cause an incursion that destroyed the universe. This also makes me wonder what singularities occurred in places like the Dark Dimension, 838, or other alternate universes we caught a glimpse of. What stones do we have that they don't? What stones do they have that WE don't? The definitions in the video also work for other undefined areas too. The Quantum realm is just whatever space stands between individual multiverses- like dark matter between universes. It exists as a constant flow state between the trees. This is also probably why the quantum realm looks so different every time we see a character go there. It is an undefined space that is influenced by all known multiverses. Also, because it lacks structure like an official universe does, it makes sense to be so difficult to enter or exit. Unless you are small enough to drop straight out of any given universe into undefined space (like in the Ant-man franchise) or powerful enough to ignore the boundaries of the multiverse (most likely what the Kangs did to trap the conqueror or Dormammu breaking into MCU 616), then you are stuck to exist in your own branching universe. Which definitely points to the Kangs being able to jump between these separate trees because they understand that the quantum realm exists between all realities and that it is a great place to banish a kang as long as they disable his escape. Makes me wonder how many kangs were disposed of this way. The quantum realm is so vast because it could span for infinity that kangs might be making empires inside, unable to escape. This is also exactly why every time we see people meet up inside the quantum realm, they were given specific coordinates (Janet in Antman and the Wasp) or drawn in to specific locations (the opening of Quantumania). Side note to all that: I also think Hank Pym has no idea what he actually captured in the Pym Particle. He describes it as if it were just reducing the space between molecules but it ends up reducing people smaller than atoms. I believe he actually deduced a way- through some sort of chemical reaction- to activate particles from the quantum realm and either draw in or push away objects in relation to the quantum realm. The particles were not created by Pym, but rather the chemical makeup of the Pym Particle that activates an unknown quantum component of the multiverse. He just witnessed what looks like the space being reduced when, in reality, it just looks smaller. He probably made the best conclusion he could given that an alternate realities hypothesis would break science as they knew it. Pym Tech is also very different from Kang Tech because the conqueror had no idea how to escape when Janet broke his ship or use the quantum realm in a way to shrink the orb. He was able to detect and harness the signal sent by Cassie but wasn't able to fix his orb. The conqueror understands Pym particles but has no idea how to harness them. Hank Pym has somehow been able to capture some aspect of the universe that no else came close to- which to me makes his contribution to the MCU that much more important. I love how much sense this makes over years of continuity!!!
Oh wow...that was an awesome comment. Loved reading it all! It was so great how you expanded on the ideas in the vid. I agree, it's awesome to see that years and years of the MCU lore all fit together so nicely. Marvel needs to tighten up the usage of the terms, but the overall concepts work really well. Thanks so much for watching the vid and taking the time to write out your detailed feedback. Truly appreciate it!
@@AbitofEverything4U yeah I was thinking about it more today. What if the dark dimension was just one cancerous universe where Dormammu caused an incursion, rose up from the ashes and set out to absorb as many universes as possible. Just a dark growth feeding off universes as their defenses fail. It would be mind boggling too if this was some sort of doctor strange variant that got out of control and lost himself. That would make it much more interesting that Cumberbatch also did the motion capture for him.
That would go really well with this line from the first Dr. Strange movie: "A being of infinite power and endless hunger, on a quest to invade every universe and bring all worlds into his Dark Dimension."
This was a great video and I agree with most of your points, but I have two notes: - In the What if finale, Gamora could not use the infinity crusher because every universe has unique infinity stones. - If branches need to be 'potted' to stay alive, do the other universes all have a different solution to keep them around or do they all just die after some time?
Great questions! 1. So, the crusher is an interesting situation. The lines are: "I’m honestly surprised. Didn’t the Watcher warn you? Every universe is different, each one just a fraction unique. Thus the Infinity Stones are unique." "Of course. The Crusher was designed to destroy the stones on my world, not his." However, what's wild is that Ultron could use the stones in each universe. So, I think the answer is that the stones are based upon the same initial big bang, thus allowing Ultron to use the stones across each universe (similar to how the time heist stones could be used in more than one universe). However, even a branched universe ends up with a tiny difference in the stones, so the crusher didn't work as it was specifically programmed for Gamora's universe. It's honestly hard to understand how the stones did work but the crusher didn't. But that's the best I can come up with. 2. I think the only reason that the Sacred Timeline branches needed to be kept alive by Loki is the 616 universe branches were placed in the loom, which was an artificial constructed created by HWR. All of the other universes follow their natural cycles, which seem to be a "big bang" followed by a "big crunch" and then back to another "big bang". So they are kept alive by their normal cycles. Hope that helps. Let me know what you think. And thanks so much for watching the vid and sharing your thoughts. Really appreciate it!
This makes a lot of sense! So it seems like Loki so far has dealt with branched universes off 616, while MoM, Spiderverse and No Way Home are dealing with these alternate universes that have different origin points. I suppose with infinite of these realities, some would be similar to 616 with Earth existing and some of the same characters while some are just completely different. Perhaps the web of destiny or whatever it's called plays some role in causing people like Peter Parker to exist in different universes even if they're born at different points in time etc. Also, I think I have figured out why the other Loki variants don't all look the same. Sylvie, Classic Loki etc are technically from branches off 616, where they were born looking different. In Season 1 we saw that timelines can be changed to a point before it starts branching too far, so I think those timelines just co-existed and were weaved together with the sacred timeline until eventually a nexus point happened that would result in a new Kang (or perhaps it branching off and connecting with an alternate universe?) and so that's when the TVA stepped in and pruned that branch. This would also explain why in MoM, going to another universe for too long would cause an incursion, while in What If Natasha was able to go live in a branch timeline, which is essentially just like Sylvie living in the branched 1982.
The Spider-Verse movies don’t officially count for the MCU. One of the directors of Across the Spider-Verse said the MCU references were just meta references for fun and that they didn’t work with Marvel Studios nor is it tied to the MCU
Good theories on the different Loki variants. I think that makes alot of sense. As for the Spider-Verse, sadly I agree with @tannerp.4996 that the directors have said there is no crossover between the Spider-Verse and the MCU, which is a bummer. Hoping it turns out that we do get one down the line anyway!
Yeah, isn't that a wild theory? Kudos to Marvel for the very clever misdirect by making us think it was the exiled Kang. But I suspect the Kang Council doesn't even care about that dude (even though they might end up regretting that) and instead are totally miffed at HWR for weaponizing Alioth, beating them back, and then hiding behind the loom. Can't wait to see where the multiverse saga goes from here!
1. Quantumania post credits scene should be in Loki season 2, it would be less confusing. 2. Loki basically became the Watcher of 616 and it's branches. I wonder if they meet one day.
Yeah, I agree, the QM post credit would have worked great for the end of Loki. I suspect they wanted it as a big tease at the end of QM, so they stuck it there instead. But, you are totally right that it would have been great as post credit for Loki S2. And I love the idea of Loki meeting the Watcher. That would be epic!
I've finally grown okay with the 616 identification for the MCU but only if they don't tie-in the comics to their multiverse if we're keeping those completely separate it works but the second they bring in a comic animated type character from the comics universe for like secret wars or something it breaks that identification
Amen to that! I agree 100%. Feige has been quoted as saying that the MCU is the live action adaption of the comics, so as long as he keeps to that, then we'll be fine. Very well said!
Love the content! Everything starts to fit together . Two questions though ….. 1) Are there many 616-Kangs? and do they prove a different threat than the colosseum or multiverse Kangs? 2)Was the original point of the TVA to prune timelines that lead to just 616-Kangs ……that might lead to different versions of the 616-he who remains ……which then may therefore lead to a nexus point ….which then may connect to the other universes (trees) ? OR Was the TVA just pruning them dangerous branches that would connect them to other universes (trees) and therefore making them Visible to to the multiverse (forest) and the multiverse Kangs? 😊😊
Great questions! 1. I think HWR originally came from 616 and he created the sacred timeline to ensure no new Kangs would come from 616. I think the Kangs in the coliseum are from different universes than 616. In Loki S1 E6 HWR described the other Kang's universes as being "stacked on top of each other" so I don't think they came from 616 branches. 2. This article by Michael Waldron (writer of Loki S1) is really helpful: screencrush.com/michael-waldron-interview-loki-heels/. In it, he explains that the goal of the TVA was to prune any branches that would create a new Kang/HWR variant. So I suspect that the TVA was only pruning the branches that HWR made them aware of...i.e. the ones that would create a new HWR. I suspect they weren't even aware that there was more than one branch wound in the loom...since HWR wanted them to focus only on the branches he considered dangerous. Hope that helps. Really appreciate you watching the vid and sharing your feedback! Love chatting with fellow MCU fans!
Loki is the centre of Earth-616 not the Multiverse. A little disappointing because I liked the idea that he saved literally everything but I guess that makes more sense so that we can still have characters like the Watcher
Right...it's okay for Loki to just be controlling 616 and any branches as we do indeed still get the Watcher(s). And I think it will be cool to slowly see the tree to start coming into contact with the rest of the multiverse as that will result in the TVA expanding their mission, I suspect. Can't wait to see where things go from here!
Robert, don't worry, it's the multiverse. Undeniably the multiverse. It's not just one universe with multiple timelines. This video is so painfully wrong that I'm tempted to make my own video debunking it. If you have any doubts. The recently released Loki Season 2 behind the scenes show is out and they immediately, in the first few minutes of the show, start talking about the multiverse. In all of their interviews about the show, they constantly refer to the Sacred Timeline and the aftermath, as the multiverse. The tree is EVERYTHING THERE IS. It is the multiverse. It's not one universe that might one day reach other universes.
@@ChillingTruthsWow...bummer to see you to describe the video as "painfully wrong", but oh well. I respect that you don't agree with it. Thx for watching and sharing your feedback!
@@Foxtrot5 Thanks! Yeah, I personally feel the model in the vid is accurate, however, I'm always open to other's feedback. But really do I appreciate your support!
The terminology is the one thing that will consistently and constantly throw me off. I'm pretty sure everything you said here makes sense, and I want to believe it. But it's really hard when the information is so confusing and mixed up. Not to mention imagining all the timelines of the universe as a tree is difficult to fully process, much less the concept of infinite timelines as well. Also, now with the Quantum Bands causing that massive break, that also makes me wonder if they're supposed to be on America Chavez's level, or is this saying the X-Verse on the same "tree" as the MCU? As a funny point to end on, while you're probably right that Loki's Tree isn't Yggdrasil, technically Loki's Tree does contain the Nine Realms (times infinity), so it's like a Super Infinite-Sized Yggdrasil.
I agree that the terminology is confusing. I think that's why looking at the overall concepts helps, because then the specific wording used isn't as important. But it's still confusing at times, I definitely agree on that. As for the quantum bands, my guess is that those are Kang tech of some sort and will explain how the Kangs were able to find each other prior to the multiversal war (basically that meeting that HWR describes in S1 E6). So I do think that that rip in space was between two different alternate universes. I don't think the X-verse is on the same tree as the MCU. So that does mean the Kangs can do the same thing America can do. But what makes America unique is she can do it w/o using any tech. It's a natural ability. And I love your point about a Super Infinite-Sized Yggdrasil. That's epic!
There is going to be a point where marvel finally makes this all clear in a movie and then people are gonna start posting those edits with epic music about HWR saying "I isolated our timeline" and then some cool shots and edits of the timeline because they will finally learn what we all already know. Without jokes though, i would really love if they clear this up big time since so many people seem to think the multiverse was born in the end of season 2.
I agree 100%...I really hope they do something to clear this up soon. I personally think it's very clear, but there are alot of people that see it differently. Hope Marvel makes it more clear soon!
The tree is separate from the sacred timeline. When they show the zoomed out of the tree growing, you can clearly see the sacred timeline in that same zoomed out panned shot. Sacred time line is visually shown to be a ring. that ring is still there with the tree growing next to/around the sacred timeline. What the cgi artist is telling us as shown in that shot, is that both the sacred timeline and multiverse co-exists but are kept separate, meaning no interference from either of them. That's how I interrupted it.
I don't know that we can tell from the tree image what Loki is holding, but we only saw him gathering the branches that came from the loom, so I don't think he's holding the multiverse. Additionally, I think the other issues in the vid indicated it can't be the multiverse. We don't see him holding paint or cube universes and it doesn't seem he would want to hold separate universes like 838 in the tree or he would be creating his own incursions. So I think that if you take all the hints and clues we've gotten so far, it seems it is only the sacred timeline and it's branches. But just my take on it.
Question: do you believe that what happens in the closing scenes of the Marvels (no spoilers in case its too soon) is a direct result of what happened at the end of Loki? I mean obviously what happened is a function of how the bands are used but is the result ultimately the fault of what happens in Loki? Because I also remember in No Way Home,Dr. Strange saying the spell should not have had the effect that it had...and this was before Strange learned about incursions. All these things are a direct result of the boundaries between universes weakening and breaking down. That's just the thought I have been having watching your videos, thinking about what Loki is saying and what Quantumania is saying (both of which are looking at the damage from outside time) and now three separate movies detailing incursions (No Way Home,Multiverse of Madness and now the Marvels). It is super exciting to see such big concepts in play but each piece only gives us a piece of the overall puzzle! I love it!
I think you are 100% correct. I do indeed think that Dar-Benn had no idea that what happened in The Marvels would happen, as she thought she was just opening a new jump gate. So yes, I do think we are seeing the boundaries between universes slowly eroding away and that we'll see more and more things happening like that. Very cool stuff...can't wait to see where the multiverse saga goes from here!
Miguel O'Hara called the Spider-Verse a “polimultiverse” in Across the Spider-Verse, so your theory of each universe doubling as a multiverse actually works pretty well with everything else that has been established.
I was confused about the watcher's view of the multiverse in comparison to HWR until season 2 dropped. I was confused about the connection between what If and the LIVE ACTION stuff until I came to this conclusion with consideration to theories from tubers like you and MT and Paul from Heavy Spoilers .I started to realize how many times they showed us the 616 on the chrono monitors or how many times it was mentioned in the show . Also what Kate Herron and Mike Waldren said about the concepts after season 1. Very intriguing how intricate and delicately this narrative and reality is being written and illustrated . No wonder Marvel is dragging this out . These are big concepts . And I hear word of Eternity Wars . I see how Marvel is setting that up through Wanda's backstory and Thor Love and Thunder. This is going to be CRAZYYYY. But yeah so the Watcher so far appears to have an even broader view of the multiverse . Infinity Ultron might be more powerful than HWR. Really puts things into perspective. Im so hype
Hello, I love your content however a question I have is that befour the creation of the infinity stones there were the celestials so are celestials different in each universe or did they just make different infinity stones in each universe?
What a great question! My guess is there is one set of Celestials for each universe at its origin point (i.e. big bang). After that, when a universe branches (like in What If), ig guess it probably creates a new group of Celestials for that new branch. The main reason I am thinking that's the case is that the Eternals killed Tiamut in our universe, but I suspect he wasn't killed in other branched "What If" universes off of 616. So that's my theory at this point. Hope that helps!
Yeah, I agree. If you have just one timeline in all universes, convergens are almost imposible. But if you have infinite timelines, the convergens will become more common, until it could destroy both universes.
I think we need to talk about spiderman next. What is going on in No Way Home given the rules set out in Loki? What about Spiderverse? Are the Noir and Spiderpig universes separate universes or branches? What about the Amazing and Sam Raimi universes? Does The Web or Steven Strange or the portal watch give spiderman the same powers as America to cross universes? Will the MCU incorporate these non-canon universes?
So I think this model of the multiverse works really well with NWH. Basically Dr. Strange knew the spell was risky, but he was also used to the more controlled multiverse that had been in place all this time (due, ofc, to the loom). So he cast the spell and then suddenly it went way worse due to the loom being gone and the 616 universe now being exposed to the other alternate universes. So, I think the Raimi and Amazing universes are indeed alternate universes. As for the other Spider-Verse universes, I sure hope Sony and Marvel put their heads together and make it all work. I really want to see a huge crossover coming. So hopefully they all play ball and follow the same rules. Fingers crossed!
I think one counterpoint to the "tree within a forest" is that it's quite likely the tree motif is a reference to Yggdrasil, the World Tree, from Norse mythology, which is a solitary tree in which exist all of the nine realms. Now that doesn't mean there can't be different world trees for different universes, or that the different universes experience fundamentally different forms of physics means that the Loki-tree wouldn't work in them, but it's worth pointing out. One thing I noticed when thinking about this is how there are some interesting similarities between Loki's new position and three other figures in Norse mythology: the Norns. Like Loki, the Norns are jotun, giants. Like Loki, they reside within Yggradsil and nourish it with their magic. And the Norns are famous for controlling the threads of fate, which obviously has parallels to the weaving imagery we've seen with the loom. The Norns control the destiny of men in Norse mythology, often subtly through slight alterations. I wonder if what we're seeing Loki do when he saves the timelines is basically use his magic to nudge all these timelines in such a way that Kang (or any other multiversal threat) cannot reach them, thus letting those who live on them survive in peace. I think this explanation works especially nicely because it means that what Loki is doing and what the TVA is doing are essentially the same task, so he's still inextricably linked to the TVA and the work of his friends. I also think this theory works regardless of whether you consider it to be 616 or the entire multiverse. It also potentially means that you can still do stories with characters like America Chavez in different universes as we just say that Loki knows she is not a threat.
Great question...so my head canon is that the older Victor joined the TVA and helped write that new edition of the TVA manual. After all he went through in season 2, he definitely deserves a happy ending!
Great work on the amount of research you put into the video. I agree with a lot of what you said but I am not sure the council of Kangs were referring to He who Remains. Since Kang from Quantumania said that he was exiled and in the end credit they say the exiled one is dead.
Thanks so much for the positive feedback on the vid. Really appreciate it. As for the exiled one, yeah, that's just my theory. I think it was a sneaky misdirect by Marvel. If you are interested, I do cover it in abit more detail in this short vid: th-cam.com/video/-_ayPVJwDOA/w-d-xo.html.
Hear me out Why would they call it 616 if they are only aware of this Alternate Universe It's just coming out of my mind but I think the part of TVA we saw was dealing only with 616 while other parts of TVA maybe in the chronopolis of which we didn't see much who deal with other Alternative Universes???
Good question...my assumption is that they have been calling it 616 from the beginning (based on all of their labeling) and when they saw that the Ant Gang (Scott, Hope, Hank, etc) went into the Quantum Realm, they tracked them there and referred to it as an adjacent realm. That said, I do think they will be come aware of the greater multiverse...I was more just meaning their goal is to protect 616 and the tree. That's their core mission. But we'll likely learn more about their expanded mission when Deadpool 3 hits theaters. Can't wait for that to arrive!
30:00 Imagine Avengers Endgame, Thanos destroyed the stones. God Loki comes in: "Let's shorten things up. Here are some other stones I found in the TVA. Bye." Thanos: "Damit." Would be funny for sure. xD
![Injustice 2 - Chapter Eleven: Batman & Superman [Story Mode]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-Swv_d7ZdMc/mqdefault.jpg)
If you'd like to read the reddit post, it can be found here: www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/115jm5n/with_quantumanias_release_a_reminder_about_how/
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Why is it called 616 if 616 is the Main MArvel Comic Universe?
@@samuelkohi4415 Good question. So Feige has explained that he considers the MCU to be the live-action adaptation of the comics. Thus, they can both be 616 since they are not part of the same multiverse.
I see it like this: The whole multiverse is a giant forest with each hypothetical tree representing an alternate universe. All the branches are the offshoot alternate histories stemming from a common “sacred” timeline.
EDIT: Yep, exactly like I thought
Well said...totally agree with you!
Maybe the the hypothetical giant forest is a megaverse
@@eddieshannon6880 I see it more as the forest is the multiverse with each tree representing one of an infinite number of expanding historical universes
@@platinumspike9578 Agreed...that's how I see it as well.
@@eddieshannon6880 Could be...but I tend to agree with @eddieshannon6880. I view it as the forest is the multiverse with each tree representing one of an infinite number of expanding historical universes. And ofc each tree has it's only infinitely expanding branches, including the 616 tree with its branches.
We have to share this video to everyone . Explained everything so well and so easy to digest. Gives so much context to the narrative and universe .
Thanks so much...so glad you liked it!
Absolute facts
@@Comic_Geek2001Thanks!
It seems this whole concept fits directly with ownership of intellectual properties. Multi-Verse (Sony, MCU), a separate origin point for each however more importantly, different timelines for the different stories they tell allowing Flex in the story. It allows us not to be fitted towards one continous story.... Basically with Loki, we are now allowed one-shot stories without everyone getting upset in continuity.
Very good observation! Yes, I do think that the alternate universes are indeed divided by ownership of the IP. Love that!
This. Makes. So. Much. Sense!
To add to this a little bit, I think the reason why incursions happen might be because of the infinity stones, because in this model every separate universe has its own set of infinity stones and therefore it's own physics and whatnot, so if a connecting link between two separate universes is established (like the exiled one shows in quantumania) it results in both of the universes being destroyed since neither can coexist with the other due to their infinity stones, and therefore their whole realities, being different enough that there's no possible chance of assimilation and therefore forces of the 12 infinity stones (6 from one universe and 6 from the other) fighting one another results in both realities coming to an end.
and another thing, I think that when a character (say, Doctor strange from 616) initially travels to another universe (818 i think it was?) the link between the two universes doesn't immediately get established, I like to think that the connecting link forms over time and therefore that's why knowledgeable characters are always in such a hurry to get everyone sent back to their respective universes, because if they take too long and the link is fully formed then the differing sets of infinity stones will start clashing and result in an incursion that wipes out both universes.
lastly, I think the loom had a dual purpose, of course as HWR said very clearly it was a failsafe to make sure that if too many branches occur then it'd explode and destroy everything but the sacred timeline, but I think that Victor Timely's explanation also fits because it's other purpose was to allow many different timelines to still exist in the 616 universe by turning them from chaotic strands into a tightly woven rope, a rope that looped back around to the "end of time" where alioth destroyed it or converted it back into raw time, and so with the help of the loom as well as the TVA preventing any branches going past the red line (going past the red line indicating that they'd be in danger of coming in contact with another universe) helped ensure that the 616 universe itself could have many different timelines within itself.
and, okay this is the real last one, I think Loki's "tree" is the same tightly woven-together rope but now all the strands have been freed apart, and whilst the creators did likely cause a lot of headaches by showing a vertical odd looking tree after having normalized clean blue/white lines, and I think it would be fair to assume that if laid horizontally and with all of the space dust from the loom explosion cleared, it would look something like the "Tree" that we saw in Across the Spiderverse. The only reason why it has gone from single line with stands to a blossoming tree is because Loki is letting it branch out as much as it likes rather than pruning it and stuff like the TVA was doing. chaotic Loki letting the chaotic universe expand in chaotic ways, just as the chaotic universe had wanted since it created so many Lokis to cause chaos.
one last last last thing, I wonder if Reed Richards' line about "boundaries between universes" just refers to the empty space and the near complete lack of happenstance of two universes just getting a link established between them, OR if there are other security measures like the 616 loom that other universes have at some points also implemented for safety at some point.
Wow...like, just wow. That was great stuff. I absolutely loved it all. I think you nailed it on everything you said. I really, really love the idea that the incursions occur because of the infinity stones being so different in each alternate universe. That is so cool! Anyway, thanks so much for watching the vid and taking the time to write all of that out. It was so much fun to read!
I think there is a difference between completely separate animated universes in MoM that change how the travelers are presented (for example physically turning Dr. Strange into noir and cube) and the different timelines in Across the Spiderverse where characters do not significantly change styles when swapping between universes (Spider-Ham sticks to always being cartoony). The distinction is slight, but in a MoM noir style universe, if a Rubik’s cube would be added from another universe, it would swap to greyscale as opposed to a Spiderverse type noir universe where a cube would retain its properties of color. It could be due to some odd alternate Big Bang shenanigans or it could be due to the different, incomplete travel of the Spiderverse franchise where things glitch as if the foreign people were not “translated” into the correct style. MoM universe travel seems more natural than the technology of the Spiderverse where they essentially put a band-aid on to fix the glitching issue.
Right...I think that's a great theory. I also wonder if the means of traveling thru the universe has something to do with it. Dr. Strange traveled thru the multiverse with America Chavez and so they changed to the physics of each universe. But Miguel and his team use those devices of his so they retain the physics of their original universe. Lots of cool possibilities for how it could work!
It makes me wonder if the “jurisdiction” of the TVA - at least as we’ve seen it - is only 616. If all Kang has done is to isolate 616 from any alternate universe, then there’s no need for the TVA to control branches from any other alternate universe. To be effective, all the TVA needs to do is keep 616 branches away from branches rooted in another alternate universe, and make sure that no other Kang variant shows up who could connect to another alternate universe. Though the TVA might be aware of them, they only stay in their own 616 universe.
Well said! I completely agree!
In the series (season 2) finale, He Who Remains told Loki "My variants are 'already out there'." Out there, is a bit vague, but it sounds like they've already discovered the sacred timeline, if not infiltrated it.
I did always wonder why everyone at the TVA is human, and they only seem to hire people from Earth, and have a huge Earth focus in general. As if Earth and humans are all that matter in an infinite universe/multiverse. It always made me wonder if we were just seeing the "Earth Division" of the TVA, and they had different parts we've never seen, focused on different planets and different species, etc.
@@matt_canon I think the fact that he said it while the loom was still intact means they are out there and if Loki destroys the loom then the Kangs will find the 616 universe. Just my take on it, though.
@@ShizuruNakatsu That's a good point about the TVA. I wonder if HWR just decided to pull them all from the Sacred Timeline and he chose earth as the main place to get them. Interesting question indeed!
16:44 this ties my Fox Branched Timeline theory together perfectly. X 1-3 & The Wolverine were the anchor universe which branched following the events of Origins (thanks to Deadpool retroactively interfering) then branched even crazier maybe into a full on Multiverse thanks to Days of Future Past. Marvel might add XMen 97’ to this multiverse too can’t wait.
YAS! I totally agree on that theory for the X-verse. Excellent point!
Wow amazing thought I would a never thought that
@@ashleybanks-wm4cgIkr? Cool theory!
THANK YOU you for making this video it was so nice that everything makes sense and links together! I think that it's not difficult for Marvel to explain it, they just need to explain the concepts, and everything will make sense (and of course put everything together and don't change it in the movies)
Right! I agree 100%...the key is to focus on the concepts and not get hung up on the terms. Well said. Thanks so much for watching the vid and sharing your thoughts. Really do appreciate it!
This explains everything so well, me and my friend were going back and forth with how the finale made any sense and I think you got it down perfectly. I just wish Marvel was a little more concrete on its definitions
Thanks so much for the positive feedback on the vid. I really appreciate that. And I agree, I do wish Marvel was abit more careful on the terms and I hope that happens going forward.
Man i am glad that you made this vid. I had a comment thread in which i stated my postition on this which litteraly had 100s of replies saying i am wrong without actual counter arguments. As i was gettin tired of this i decided to write like 5 paragrapghs or so explaining step by step what happen in the loki series and why it wouldnt make sense for the tree to be the multiverse. But still only comments on how i was "wrong duh". Man people cam be annoying. As said glad you made this vid. You earned your sub.
So great to have you subbed on the channel...sounds like we think alot alike. Yeah, this makes so much sense to me, but I have also had people saying that Loki's tree is the entire multiverse and sometimes with some fairly unkind comments along the way. So I really wanted to put this vid together to try to lay everything out. Thx so much for watching the vid and leaving your feedback. Truly appreciate it!
That was very informative
Thanks so much...really appreciate the positive feedback on the vid!
I’m really glad you take the time to do these videos cuz I really just want to be able to enjoy discussing these things with everyone on the same page.
Thanks so much for the positive feedback. Yeah, that's the exact reason I do the vids. My hope is to get as many people as possible on the same page. And I also update the model as new info arrives or if people point out errors. So I promise to keep updating it as we learn more!
I totally agree with you. We've been hung up on the terminology. Disregard the terminology and look at the concept and it gets super clear. Now I want to re-watch the whole show and see if this makes it clearer!
Perfectly stated...I agree, will be fun to rewatch all of Phase 4 with this model in mind!
Honestly these videos are incredibly A-coded but i'm all here for it, I love how in depth you are on your analysis and even give perceived contradictions proper explanations.
Thanks! I have alot of fun trying to break it all down. Really appreciate you watching and sharing your thoughts on the vid!
Your Videos explain much better than normal Movie/Show Explanation Videos. Learned a lot from this one too!
Thanks so much...really appreciate hearing that. I had alot of fun putting this vid together. I think the model is finally looking really solid. Can't wait to see where things go from here with the multiverse saga!
Finally it all makes sense. Didn't think it was possible. Congrats!
Thanks so much...really appreciate the positive feedback on the vid!
I love this because everytime you release a new video, the logic is even better and it all fits together again. I don't see any flaw now
Thanks! Yeah, it's been fun to slowly evolve the model as we've been given more facts and also as I've read the comments people leave which often have fantastic points to consider. Really appreciate you watching the vid and sharing your positive feedback on it!
So glad that you made this video! I remember asking you to make this video when the season finale came out!
You did indeed...it was an excellent suggestion. Thanks for the idea!
Incredible job making the MCU Multiverse work. This seems so right. Hopefully it’ll be properly explained on screen at one point. Great work.
Thanks so much for the positive feedback on the vid. Yeah, I do hope that Marvel finds a way to explain these concepts as we move further into the multiverse saga. I'm sure it can be done, but it is hard to do without really digging into the concepts before trying to land on terms. Can't wait to see where we go from here!
This makes so much sense! Especially how you explained What If. Great work!!
Thanks for the positive feedback on the vid. I really appreciate it!
Wow man, I’ve just finished watching your last 2 Loki videos and I gotta say, Fantastic theories!!! I was really having trouble listening to my own theories about the finale, before watching your videos because I really thought I was the only one having these complex but yet interesting theories. But I was wrong. And I learned so much more. Just earned a sub.
That's so nice of you to say! Yeah, sounds like we were thinking alot alike regarding the finale. I loved putting the videos together for Loki. Such an amazing show. And after finished the show breakdowns, I did a video on What If and goes abit more into how that show fits into the multiversal model. If you haven't seen it, you might enjoy it as well: th-cam.com/video/imjWCRQsHkE/w-d-xo.html. I'm excited to see how the second season goes and also really excited for the multiverse saga in general. It's great to hear that Waldron is doing the writing for Kang Dynasty and Secret Wars, as he's a fantastic writer.
As much as I generally dislike how they've handled the development of the multiverse plot and the explanations there of, I think this is a really clever deduction of the facts. The picture's a whole lot clearer now, and I think everything you've said in the video holds up to scrutiny.
Something I'm surprised you didn't mention in the video as a point of evidence towards your branched timeline multiverse vs alternate universe multiverse theory is the fact that the alternate Gamora from 2014 didn't cause an incursion and indeed seems to be living a contented life on the main 616 branch.
Great video as always, though, keep it up!
Thanks so much for the positive feedback on the vid. I totally agree, Marvel hasn't done a good job of describing the multiverse, other than Waldron's amazing description in the MoM Assembled episode...but that wasn't even an official MCU entry. However, they have done a surprisingly good job of making all of the logic fit. So I have to think they are using the same basic model of the multiverse that's in the video, but they are just struggling to find the words to describe it in the shows and movies.
And I love your point about Gamora. Believe it or not, I did a follow-on video where I went into the rules around What If abit further, and I mention Gamora in that vid: th-cam.com/video/imjWCRQsHkE/w-d-xo.html. So we are thinking along the same lines. It also explains why Black Widow didn't cause an incursion when the Watcher dropped her in Captain Carter's universe in S1's finale. It really all does make sense, which is quite an achievement by Marvel, even if they backed into it along the way.
You're awesome man! I've been trying to figure out the MCU multiverse and it's relation to the wider Marvel multiverse and this makes so much sense. Thanks
Awesome...I'm so glad that helped. It sure helped me to lay it out like that. If you are interested, I did a follow-on video going abit deeper into the rules around What If, since season 2 is arriving soon. It made things even clearer for me. You can check it out here, if interested: th-cam.com/video/imjWCRQsHkE/w-d-xo.html. And thx so much for sharing your positive feedback. I truly appreciate it!
My first video I've seen of you. Really good stuff. Much more in depth than a lot of other channels.
Thanks so much for the positive feedback. Yeah, I love to do deep dives into a concept like Loki's tree. It helps me get a better view of where things are going from here. Really appreciate you watching the vid and leaving your thoughts!
Wow! I just finished Loki and was so completely lost! Thanks for this great explanation!!!
Awesome! So glad that it helped. It was a really good show, but I agree, it sure made you have to stop and think about it for abit to get it all down!
I don't really know what's gonna happen with the whole multiverse / kang storyline but the discussion about it, like this video, is really interesting!
Thanks! Yeah, it was alot of fun putting this together. Will be very interesting to see where things go from here!
I really like your theories
Thanks for sharing your positive feedback! I really appreciate it!
Man, you do such a great job explaining this. I wish Marvel worked this hard to help their audience.
Yeah, I suspect it's tough to try to explain this in the movies/shows...so I'd love a special presentation where we just have Reed Richards in front of a chalkboard going over it all. That would be amazing!
@@AbitofEverything4Uand Luis
@@ghiggs8389 That would be amazing if Luis joined in!
Thank you so much! I didn’t catch the subtle difference between “branched” and “alternate” at all lol
And your explanation is so complete which makes everything very clear!
That's so great to hear. Thanks for the positive feedback on the vid. Really appreciate it!
This video was everything I needed and then some. Brilliant job with breaking down and Flowing from topic to topic
smoothly. Definitely adding some of the bullet Points to my notes! 📝
Thanks so much...really had fun pulling everything together for the vid!
The multiverse did exist during the first Doctor Strange film because the Kang of Quantumania was hanging in the quantum realm with Janet Van Dyne years before it. Because the LOKI series takes place outside of time, TVA time does not follow along with 616 time. That's potentially also an argument for the Loki tree having always been the same tree as Yggdrasil with him being both inspired by Yggdrasil AND creating it, like the TVA handbook with OB and Victor.
Yeah, I agree that with things happening at the end of time, it seems that the Loki series could retroactively impact the entire MCU. But based on the timeline book, it seems Loki's two seasons happen between Endgame and What If. So it's kinda timey wimey in how Feige has made it work, but that seems to be how he's laid it out. But yeah, I totally get what you are saying and your logic does make sense. It just seems the MCU has treated Loki as only impacting the MCU from Endgame forward. Kinda wild. Anyway, thx so much for watching the vid and sharing your thoughts. Truly appreciate it!
Love the breakdowns, you really make it so the convoluted comic rules translate well to the mass movie scene!
Thanks so much! Very kind of you to say that. Love trying to break it all down in the vids!
This is exactly how I perceived the multiverse concept in my head.
This is the best explinantion of mcu multiverse concept put in a video, it's better explain than marvel studio
Thanks so much for the positive feedback! I had alot of fun putting that vid together. My mind just works better when I lay all the pieces on the table and try to go through them in an orderly fashion. Really appreciate you watching the vid and leaving your thoughts!
I was never hung up on the terminology here but I enjoy your breakdown and clarifications. You presented questions I never focused on because I felt like the branches were always off of 616 (Sacred Timeline) and the multiverse was separate all together from the existence of the stadium Kang; I found the best definitions off the Multiverse in Quantumania. But as these stories progress the verbiage was getting a little loose! So thank you for the visual breakdown-definitely how
my brain learns!
You are very kind...thanks for that feedback on the vid. Yeah, I do feel the terms are abit too loose, so I hope they tighten that up abit as the multiverse saga moves along. And yeah, this vid is also how my brain works. I have to lay all the pieces out on the table and try to put them together in as logical a fashion as I can. Thx again for watching the vid and for sharing your thoughts...truly do appreciate it!
Personally, I like to think that Loki will lead into Secret Wars and that he will act kind of like the Molecule Man in the comics
I love that theory! Really hope that happens!
I live the Image of the "tree", the colors and the whole background are so beautiful😍
Agree 100%!
I found the 616-adjacent line to be by far the most confusing line they've used yet. I'm fine in general with using synonyms to describe a noun. That's probably just writers being bored. But when I first heard the line at the end of the finale, I assumed they were talking about a different Kang variant.
I agree, it was a really weird way to phrase it...Mobius called the Quantum Realm a "616 adjacent realm". My theory is the TVA is focusing primarily on 616, but since Scott, Hope and the gang entered the quantum realm and encountered Kang, it was something they tracked. And since it's the basement of the multiverse, the QR technically speaking is adjacent to every universe, so it was probably the best way to refer to it. They likely had been keeping an eye on the QR due to learning about it when the Avengers did the time heist. So that's what I think was going on in that scene. Thanks so much for watching the vid and sharing your thoughts. Really appreciate it!
Love your breakdowns you’re so in tune with marvel
Thanks so much...really appreciate that!
Amazing work, great analysis ! :)
Thanks! Really appreciate the positive feedback!
Conceptually what you're saying makes sense. When it comes to the alternate universes, the cube universe and paint universe make more sense because of the physics, but then 838 becomes strange. They treat 838 almost like a "what if" scenario, where they seem to have the same origin, but just slightly different details happened. If the alternate universes are stacked on top of each other, and have different physics, 838 would make MORE sense to treat it as a branched timeline, but I don't think that's what they're trying to do.
ALSO! You should address the numbered universes themselves if you get a chance. The TVA is aware of 616, which means they are aware of other numbers as well. However, they seem somewhat unaware of the other "alternate" multiverses... or are they? It's a bit unclear.
From a meta perspective, because they use multiverses to describe both "what if" scenarios and other studio IPs like Fox, Sony etc... they try to describe two different things with the same function. It's probably going to remain pretty murky.
So I was thinking recently about 838 and whether it could have been a branch. Honestly they aren’t really all that similar, imo. Maria became Captain Marvel, Peggy Carter became Captain Britain, Thanos was defeated, Doctor Strange was killed, the X-Men exist, inhumans exist, the fantastic four exists, Wanda has no powers, Mordo isn’t off chasing sorcerers, and the illuminati exists. But that said, I’m sure many alternate universes still have some of the same looking characters in them. But I do think you are right that Marvel wants 838 and 616 to be alternate universes so that they can create incursions down the line.
As for the numbering, I think HWR chose the 616 numbering. Perhaps when all the Kangs originally met and were working together, they came up with the numbering and HWR's universe was 616, so he used it for the sacred timeline.
And yeah, I do fear things could get murky if they don't do a better job of picking their terms. Good point!
@@AbitofEverything4U So for the Kang's and 838 Illuminati and TVA it's 616. For the Captain Britain Corps and Spider-Society it's 199999. Man I'd love to get them all together to argue which is the more legitimate number designation!
@@flamesofchaos13 That would be an epic conversation between the two factions!
Heres the way i look at it. A timeline is a collection of events. A universe is a collection of timelines. A multiverse is a collection of universes. Branches are when a new nexus event happens and now theres a new series of events to bundle with the other ones.
Assuming that these branches take up some kind of physical space, i.e. the visuals in loki, incursions happen when your branch grows into another timeline. Using the plant analogy, if you put two big plants in one small pot, one or both of those plants are going to die.
Yep, I love that analogy. The only thing I would add is that there is a difference between universes that are branched off another universe due to a nexus event (i.e. the branches we saw in Loki, or the branches we saw in the time heist, or the branches we saw in What If) and between universes that that are completely separate (838, paint, cube, animated, etc). So the incursions only occur between alternate universes, which are the two plants in the same pot in your analogy. But otherwise, I agree 100% with everything you said. I just made a follow-on video about What If that picks up right after the concepts in this vid, in case you are interested: th-cam.com/video/imjWCRQsHkE/w-d-xo.html. And thanks so much for leaving your comments. Loved reading them all!
You worded my theory better than I could, after your video saying about multiple big bangs the first thought I had was that a branched timeline has multiple universes but there are also multiple individual timelines with their own branches, when the branches connect from one timeline to another, it rips the space that keeps them in their own "universe"
I also really like the idea that kang is keeping his "tree" tight so it's hidden from all the others
Great feedback. Yup, it definitely sounds like we are thinking the same things about what Loki did and where things go from here. So much fun to consider how it all fits together!
I hadn't even thought about the forest metaphor or realized how long ago it was mentioned, pretty cool
Ikr? Isn't that cool. I loved seeing those earlier interviews and how it fit together so well!
Your video is so amazing, it's the best of all the explanations I've ever seen. Thank you, Love you
Thanks so much. You are very kind to say that. I really appreciate the positive feedback on the video!
Really well done pulling all the sources together!
The only part I'm still debating internally is that _[my variants] are already out there_ line.
He might have meant those from alternate universes, but he also might have meant his own, from branched timelines. Or both.
Granted, his own branch-variants might have not had the time to become Kangs, but who really knows. For all we know, the Conqueror could have been his branch-variant.
Yeah, my theory is that HWR was referring to those Kangs outside the loom, as it seems HWR had the loom configured to blow up before any of the branches inside the loom would manifest into a new Kang. ofc, the goal was to prune them immediately but HWR probably anticipated a situation where things got out of control, so he made sure the loom blew before there was a threat inside the loom. But just my head canon on that.
@@AbitofEverything4U
The fail safe was there specifically in case of the meltdown, no? For when there are too many branches. I don't think it was ever said it reacted to potential Kangs within those branches. And before we reached the meltdown, there was a quite a lot of time for branching, so arguably, some Kangs may have escaped the branches before they were pruned by the failsafe. (This interpretation kinda depends on how long would it take for his branch-variants to escape which is not clear, given that we're not sure how fast those branches grow and we don't have clarity on what "time passes differently at the TVA" means exactly (there could be a difference between how fast time passes for people within timelines and for people at the TVA))
Also, Loki tried to save the Loom for subjective centuries of repeating certain time sequences, which might have unleashed additional Kangs repeatedly, per every one of these cycles.
@@krzyszwojciechIt was never explicitly mentioned that he pruned the branched timelines to not allow different Kangs to show up from that branched universe. He had said that if they kill him, an infinite number of them will show up (from the Arena we saw) and will ultimately destroy the multiverse.
@@krzyszwojciech I mean, we are definitely into theories at this point, so any theory could work, but my assumption is that HWR wanted to avoid at all costs having his variants appear inside the loom. So he would be sure that it reset before any appeared. As for Loki, he was looping back to the same place in time, so it didn't make any time lapse for everyone else and most importantly for the branching itself. Just my theories though.
@@dybiosol It wasn't explicitly stated, but Loki implied it when he was telling Mobius that avoiding new Kangs was what HWR was doing by pruning. He said that in S2's opener to Mobius when they met outside the war room. Also, Waldron said it in a quote, which ofc isn't canon, but since Waldron wrote Loki S1 he's likely telling us what he intended to have happen in the show. So that's why I'm assuming HWR's main goal was to prevent any new Kang's from appearing in the loom.
I now realized in ep6 he who remains give a reason why realities were spaghettifying, it was the temporal loom deleting(pruning) those branch timelines springing from the sacred timeline, when it was destroyed.
Excellent point! Yes, that would explain it perfectly. Nice call!
All makes perfect sense :) Love it!
Thanks so much...I really appreciate that!
Thanks to you and all other contributors for helping make sense of this stupidly complicated series.
Yeah… the series was definitely a little more complicated than it needed to be. I think where the series was strongest this season was in the acting and in the character growth. But the overall Multiversal lore was pretty confusing.
I broke my arm yesterday and I am sad I can't play football or video games but I can still see your videos and they make my day
I hope you heal quickly and well.🙏🏼
@@tlouiseallen9302 thanks
Oh my word...I am so sorry to hear that. I hope you heal up fast. Take it easy and I'm glad that vid can provide some comfort for abit!
Remember: “Don’t climb trees”.
I hope you are not offended by my joke. I had to comment since this video is about Yggdrasil and the intricate symbolism that trees and tree branches played in this series, it seemed like an appropriate reference to make.
From the concept of branched timelines, the tree with No branches on the wall in the background of the McDonalds Sylvie worked at on her branched timeline, of course the aforementioned Hunter B-15 variant’s words to the little girl she puts the cast on in Episode 5, to Loki’s Yggdrasil & the revamped TVA slogan of let’s grow together.
Nevertheless, I sincerely hope you get better and heal quickly.
@@AbitofEverything4U don't worry about it I still have a lot of stuff to do even with one hand and it will be ok in 1-2 months
now this fits perfectly for me, interesting how it ended up it beign kind of an hybrid of your two previous models
Ikr? It's been wild trying to nail down the model as I was too focused on the terms (which are admittedly thrown around pretty loosely in the movies) and it wasn't until I focused on the concepts that it became so clear. And yeah, it did indeed turn out to be a hybrid of the two previous models. Crazy stuff!
@@AbitofEverything4U im deeply puzzled bu the relationship between the one who remains and the exile, they both have the same problem with the others (that they cause chaos) and they both end up isolated. Probably they re variants of the same universe.
Interesting point...yeah, they had very different approaches to the problem but they both ended up being all alone and isolated. How fascinating!
I think what Marvel tries to say is that the branches are timelines that branch off of the main 616 universe. And that 838 is another universe with it's own timeline branches. So that's how you have one big multiverse of multiple universes with multiple timelines. That's why some universes look so different from MCU 616. That's Why we got a Tobey Meguire Spider-Man in 2002 and a Tom Holland Spider-Man in 2016.
I agree 100%. Well said!
There's still a bit of a problem with terminology, I think.
We have universes, the ones with separate Big Bangs are labeled as alternate universes. Each universe can and will branch to create branched universes, which are connected to their main universe. An universe with branches isn't a mere universe - it's a multiverse.
Which basically means that there's no such thing as an universe. They're all multiverses. Each alternate universe has branches, so it's never just an universe, it's always a multiverse. And each branched universe branches even further and creates it's own branches...
It would be better to have separate terms for a multiverse that is a universe with branches, and a multiverse that is a collection of such aforementioned multiverses.
Good point! Yes, the real key is that there is a fundamental difference between universes that share a common big bang and are branched off each other versus a second set of universes with their own big bang and their own set of branched universes. Multiverse becomes a tough pin down since you are right that each universe is its own multiverse as soon as it branches. No wonder, Marvel has a hard time deciding what terms to use!
man everything you explain makes sense
Thanks so much...I really appreciate the positive feedback!
20 years ago, when I moved into a townhome in a brand-new neighborhood, I noticed a row of trees planted a few feet apart from each other along the street. They looked really nice back then. But over the years, despite the maintenance crews pruning the branches every so often, those trees just kept growing beyond control, and the branches ended up overcrowding each other and causing incursions between the trees, so instead of a nice little row of separate trees, it looks like one huge mess now. I guess that's what's starting to happen with the multiverse.
Love that analogy...I agree 100%. I think the tree and forest imagery works so well!
This was brilliantly explained and I appreciate this video! Thanks!! 😃
My pleasure...thanks so much for watching and sharing your positive feedback. I really appreciate it!
Ok so excellent fkn video man for once i have ZERO things to add lmao its perfect explanation and u changed my mind on a lot of things and made me edit my marvel notes and lists haha, good stuff man its all makes perfect sense.
However, I do have a request. Can u make a video explaining the multiversal beings that seem to watch over the entire multiverse (branches and alternates), such as The Watcher. Like if the Watcher is multiversal and he is depicted in the same throne room as Eon, Death, Eternity, Living Tribunal, and the Celestial One Above All, that means they are all multiversal then, not tied to 616. But then where does that leave all the lesser watchers and lesser celestials and stuff, are they only universal like the infinity stones? I would love a video where u get into that man.
Thanks so much for the positive feedback on the vid. Had a lot of fun putting it together. As for those higher beings, that a great question. I am really curious to know which of the beings are one per alternate universe (i.e. one watcher for 616 and its branches and a separate watcher for 838 and its branches) or if there are beings that are over all of the alternate universes in the entire multiverse. I'll give that some thought, as I agree, it would be a very cool vid!
One thing I’d like to suggest about Doctor Strange and other films talking about the multiverse taking place before Loki season 2, we need to keep in mind that while the anchor point for that version of Loki happening as the result of Endgame, now the timeline has been allowed to branch that means those branches can now occur any point in history. It's somewhat confusing to say that Loki takes place when it does because it is mostly separated from the natural flow of time. The movies have always been set in a reality in which the multiverse existed. You can look at Loki as a prequel to the MCU because once he did what he did it was always done
Yeah, I'm with you that I do wonder at times if the Loki S1 and S2 events end up retroactively impacting the previous MCU entries. However, I can only assume that Feige isn't going that direction based on how the timeline book is laid out. So I'm totally with you that they could have used that as the explanation, but I think they are implying that the sacred timeline was only impacted by Loki after Endgame and not before. Very timey wimey, it seems!
@@AbitofEverything4U I don't think it retroactively altered them. It's an ouroboros. It’s already done because he would eventually do it
Certainly could be...I mean that was the theme of the series, so I'd be down for that being what happened.
Excellent video! Based on this info my head canon is that the Netflix Series’, Agent Carter, and Agents of Shield are all branched timelines/universes anchored to the 616 universe. And that the X-Men and Tobey/Andrew Spider-Man franchises are all alternate universes.
I would also argue that the X-Men franchise contains several movies that are set in branched universes/timelines anchored to a central universe. For instance, I think continuity errors in First Class and Days of Future Past point to them being in a branch from the OG 3 movies. And movies like Deadpool and Origins Wolverine would also be branched universes. So basically, every X-Men movie is anchored to one universe, but there’s just a lot of branches. I think that’s a neat way to head canon away some plot holes 😂
I love it! I agree 100% with what you said. That is a perfect application of the model for the pre-Disney+ shows, for the X-men unviverse, and for the Tobey/Andrew universes. And yeah, that X-men universe has a TON of branches. I mean, Deadpool created about 30 of them himself...lol!
I'm concerned about the reports suggesting a potential replacement of Kang with Dr. Doom. While I acknowledge Doom as a formidable villain, my preference is to stick with Kang. We've invested a significant amount of time in Kang's character, and I would rather not see anyone else in that role, especially considering Jonathan Majors' portrayal.
I agree 100%. I'm hoping those reports are premature and that they find a good way to wrap up the Kang storyline in The Kang Dynasty. I'm totally down with Doom stealing Kang's tech and becoming the big bad of Secret Wars but I think it would be really weird to pivot completely away from Kang at this point. We'll learn more about Majors' legal case soon, and perhaps we'll get our answers then.
25:08 They are not discussing HWR, as one Kang mentioned, "So, the exiled one is dead" and it is the Kang from Quantumania who is exiled, not HWR. HWR, in fact, concealed himself and the 616 from them.
So, I made a separate vid on that, in case you are interested: th-cam.com/video/-_ayPVJwDOA/w-d-xo.html. I think Marvel was being sneaky with the misdirect regarding who the exiled one truly is.
beautiful video
Thanks so much...really appreciate you watching and sharing your feedbackQ!
Yooo this has just hit me like a brick,
It's the entire multiverse. It's showed in Loki season 1 episode 5,
There's heaps of different types of loki in the Void at the end of time, including an alligator, and boastful Loki is an adult, his nexus event wasn't existing.
The temporal loom weaves time into a rope, a rope has more than one strand or thread, this TVA has jurisdiction over the animal universes as well as paint kang, and 838, and any mutant universes.
And at the end if it was only 616, he would have just grabbed one timeline and let it branch, all the separate timelines loki grabbed are different universes and is letting them branch like a tree,
This hit me hard and now there's no doubt in my mind that Loki is the God of the multiverse.
And there's no way he who remains hasn't met paint kang, but I'm pretty sure everytime kang time travels in the comic he creates a new time variant, and that's why there are so many
Sorry this was long
Thanks so much for the feedback on the vid. So, for me, it seems that they have indicated from the beginning of Loki S1 to the end of Loki S2 that the loom is just 616 and its branches. All of the labeling of the sacred timeline and its branches from the first episode to the last has been 616. But you raise a great question about the Loki variants. I made a short vid that discusses that situation, if you are interested: th-cam.com/video/nb91pLa9hIY/w-d-xo.html You might check it out, if you get a moment.
As for all the branches that Loki grabs, the reason he grabbed so many is that there were a ton of branches in the loom at that point. If he just grabbed one, it would have meant the others died. So he grabbed all the 616 branches that had been multiplying and that's what forms the tree.
The biggest reason I think Loki didn't grab the other universes is that it means he'd have paint universes and cube universes in the same tree. And most importantly, we know that two separate universes an cause incursions (such 838 and 616 causing potential incursions). So Loki would be creating incursions in his own tree if he grabbed both.
Anyway, my feeling is that the tree is just 616 and its many branches, but hopefully Marvel will keep giving us more info on things as the multiverse saga continues on. Thanks so much for watching the vid and sharing your thoughts. I truly appreciate it!
@AbitofEverything4U the way I see it, 838 has its own sacred timeline, as does paint Kang, only one of the infinite kangs can be "he who remains", that guy is going to account for other universe's kangs too, so he had pruned off all the other branches that result in a kang for those universes, but they all seem to get one timeline in the multiverse, within the Loom.
Loki won't be creating incursions, but I don't think he would be stopping them either, his goal is to let the universe exist without interference from a tyrannical bureaucracy.
Let's just go outside in-universe lore for a moment,
Kevin Feige said all this is canon in a multiverse capacity, so in secret wars, everything is fair game
I think the only thing outside Loki's multiverse might be the "arachnohumanoid poly multiverse" in ATSV that was outside of Loki's multiverse, Loki has all those different orgin points in his tree,
In the end of the series when when the quantamania incident is brought up, it's 616 adjacent, which confirms to me that they have number designations for the different universes, so they have access to all the universes and their branches, otherwise i think they would have said "sacred timeline" rather than 616
Hmmm...well, I'm not sure I agree, but that's totally fine if we don't see it the same. There's no doubt that it was left up to interpretation. So I suspect there will be lots of different theories out there. My hope is that at some point, Marvel gives us a firm answer as we move further and further into the multiverse saga. I truly do appreciate you sharing your theories. I love to hear what fellow MCU fans are thinking!
Very well explained!
Thanks! Had a lot of fun putting it together!
Ignoring the words and focusing on the concepts is the best way to move forward
Totally agree...well said!
You're absolutely correct about everything.
Thanks so much! Really appreciate you watching the vid and sharing your positive feedback on it!
@@AbitofEverything4U yh man, you are right on the money.
@@qfranklin2777
A couple things:
First i am really excited to see 616 as it appears alongside the other alternate universes. I hypothesize that it will still look kinda circular just imagine the image of ýggdrasil on a sheet of paper that is curved into a circle. I have nothing to back that up, i just think Marvel likes its circular imagery so i hypothesize when next we see a diagram like Kang made in QM which displayed (i think) 2 alt-unis, it might display ýggdrasil as one of them but curved to be at least vaguely circular.
Second, i am still waffling on What If... either branched or alt. There is the imagery in the timeline book, the several times they said the word branch which both appear to infer branched feom 616. But then theres the fact that Gamora's infinity crusher not working on Ultrons Infinity Stones as they were calibrated to her uni not his. Its not definitive but it can be read that the stones were so inherently different from Gamora's uni. But also ultrons stones were usable outside his uni when they dont at the tva. But does the tva count the same way? Or did they not work for the same reason Lokis powers didnt work? But then theres the interview that mentions nexus points would have likely been used if they knew...
I waffle back and forth. Theres too many contradictions for me to make a decision.
Great points about Gamora's stone crusher. Honestly, I've never understood why it didn't work and yet the stones do work across universes. However, I think it's more important that the stones do work across universes (due to them being branches from the same original universe) and I'd rather write off Gamora's stone crusher not working since a branched universe has subtle differences and maybe that was the issue?
Also, if What If is branches it actually explains why Black Widow could be placed in the Captain Carter universe w/o creating an incursion. It's the same reason Gamora hasn't created an incursion yet after coming from 2014. In fact, it would explain why the Guardians of the Multiverse being in the same place didn't create incursions. So there are a ton of reasons that it works better to have it all be one universe with branches. So that's why I am theorizing that. But I agree, it isn't crystal clear yet.
My husband made a great point recently... why is it an either or situation? They never say that each universe is from the same or different origin. It's quite possible that they're a mix between alt universes and 616 branched universes. Since the watcher is truly multiversal there's nothing to say that he limited himself to just alt unis.
Honestly I like that idea a lot.
Yeah, that could very well be the case. The only reason I wonder if they are all branches off of 616 is that's how they showed it in the image from the timeline book. But I do agree, anything's possible with Marvel!
So Loki will meet Watcher
Great point! Yes, that will be quite a cool meeting down the road!
According to me, the loom was a fail safe which prevented the sacred timeline from branching to infinite universes, in HWR's loom you have to keep pruning the timelines or the loom will get destroyed with the load of infinite branch timelines which will also result in destruction of the sacred timeline......Loki is now acting as a loom, a loom that can allow the branch timelines to exist without destroying the sacred timeline
I think HWR explained it that the sacred timeline will never be destroyed, because if the loom overloads, the failsafe kicks in and the resets it back to be just the sacred timeline. So HWR used the loom to hide from the rest of the multiverse and that's why he set things up that way. But I do agree that Loki is now letting the branches expand infinitely as he isn't trying to keep things contained by the loom. Thx so much for watching the vid and sharing your thoughts. Really appreciate it!
Thanks for the video
I was fighting to understand
😂😂😂
Oh, bummer, my apologies if the vid was hard to understand. I do appreciate feedback, though, as it helps me for future vids!
I didn't expect that in this video I would get the most comprehensive explanation of MCU Multiverse logic I've seen yet... I do wish though it wouldn't be so difficult to explain because Marvel would just make it make more sense on its own ;D
Ikr? We shouldn't have to work so much to explain how the multiverse works. My hope for the MCU going forward is that they find a way to explain it very clearly. In fact, I'm even more excited about What If, after I got a better understanding of the multiversal model. If you haven't seen my vid on the What If rules that I made right after the Loki tree vid, then you might enjoy it: th-cam.com/video/imjWCRQsHkE/w-d-xo.html. Thx so much the positive feedback and also for becoming a supporter of the channel. I truly appreciate it!
I find trying to put Loki in place of events on the sacred timeline difficult, because everyone says it's after endgame/infinity war (even marvel have said themselves) but, it follows Loki immediately following the events of the battle of New York in 2012, and the whole series is meant to take place over the course of like 2 weeks (before the look starts to break and Loki spends centuries learning physics maths etc, so technically the branching of the timeline (when Sylvie kills He Who Remains) should have started in 2012-2013 latest surely?? Then Loki (becomes the loom) centuries later forming the tree
Yeah, it's tough to place something like the Loki series. I think the key is that Marvel feels the events of the series don't impact the MCU until after the events of Endgame. So that's the important timeline thing to consider. Beyond that, it's anyone's guess how to explain the timey wimey nature of the show and its placement.
This makes a ton of sense- I applaud the mental gymnastics it took to explain this plainly.
My own headcanon for years was that the dark dimension had to be fundamentally different from our own universe because it lacked any sense of time. This would have then had to mean that time was not a part of its initial singularity like it was for the MCU 616, meaning it would be completely separate from our own reality. Dormammu craves our universe for the energy that his lacks. Doctor Strange 2016 would then be technically the first MCU incursion deliberately inflicted by Dormammu because he feeds on universes, destroying them as an incursion would. This would also explain why drawing power from the dark dimension was so dangerous. Not that Dormammu would be let in but that, to an unknowledgeable or unskilled sorcerer, it could literally cause an incursion that destroyed the universe.
This also makes me wonder what singularities occurred in places like the Dark Dimension, 838, or other alternate universes we caught a glimpse of. What stones do we have that they don't? What stones do they have that WE don't?
The definitions in the video also work for other undefined areas too. The Quantum realm is just whatever space stands between individual multiverses- like dark matter between universes. It exists as a constant flow state between the trees. This is also probably why the quantum realm looks so different every time we see a character go there. It is an undefined space that is influenced by all known multiverses. Also, because it lacks structure like an official universe does, it makes sense to be so difficult to enter or exit. Unless you are small enough to drop straight out of any given universe into undefined space (like in the Ant-man franchise) or powerful enough to ignore the boundaries of the multiverse (most likely what the Kangs did to trap the conqueror or Dormammu breaking into MCU 616), then you are stuck to exist in your own branching universe.
Which definitely points to the Kangs being able to jump between these separate trees because they understand that the quantum realm exists between all realities and that it is a great place to banish a kang as long as they disable his escape. Makes me wonder how many kangs were disposed of this way. The quantum realm is so vast because it could span for infinity that kangs might be making empires inside, unable to escape. This is also exactly why every time we see people meet up inside the quantum realm, they were given specific coordinates (Janet in Antman and the Wasp) or drawn in to specific locations (the opening of Quantumania).
Side note to all that: I also think Hank Pym has no idea what he actually captured in the Pym Particle. He describes it as if it were just reducing the space between molecules but it ends up reducing people smaller than atoms. I believe he actually deduced a way- through some sort of chemical reaction- to activate particles from the quantum realm and either draw in or push away objects in relation to the quantum realm. The particles were not created by Pym, but rather the chemical makeup of the Pym Particle that activates an unknown quantum component of the multiverse. He just witnessed what looks like the space being reduced when, in reality, it just looks smaller. He probably made the best conclusion he could given that an alternate realities hypothesis would break science as they knew it. Pym Tech is also very different from Kang Tech because the conqueror had no idea how to escape when Janet broke his ship or use the quantum realm in a way to shrink the orb. He was able to detect and harness the signal sent by Cassie but wasn't able to fix his orb. The conqueror understands Pym particles but has no idea how to harness them. Hank Pym has somehow been able to capture some aspect of the universe that no else came close to- which to me makes his contribution to the MCU that much more important.
I love how much sense this makes over years of continuity!!!
Oh wow...that was an awesome comment. Loved reading it all! It was so great how you expanded on the ideas in the vid. I agree, it's awesome to see that years and years of the MCU lore all fit together so nicely. Marvel needs to tighten up the usage of the terms, but the overall concepts work really well. Thanks so much for watching the vid and taking the time to write out your detailed feedback. Truly appreciate it!
@@AbitofEverything4U yeah I was thinking about it more today. What if the dark dimension was just one cancerous universe where Dormammu caused an incursion, rose up from the ashes and set out to absorb as many universes as possible. Just a dark growth feeding off universes as their defenses fail. It would be mind boggling too if this was some sort of doctor strange variant that got out of control and lost himself. That would make it much more interesting that Cumberbatch also did the motion capture for him.
That would go really well with this line from the first Dr. Strange movie: "A being of infinite power and endless hunger, on a quest to invade every universe and bring all worlds into his Dark Dimension."
HWR was only pruning timelines that created a new Kang variant, not every deviation in the timeline
Agree 100%! My apologies if I made it sound otherwise. He pruned enough branches to prevent any new Kangs and to avoid a loom overload.
This was a great video and I agree with most of your points, but I have two notes:
- In the What if finale, Gamora could not use the infinity crusher because every universe has unique infinity stones.
- If branches need to be 'potted' to stay alive, do the other universes all have a different solution to keep them around or do they all just die after some time?
Great questions!
1. So, the crusher is an interesting situation. The lines are:
"I’m honestly surprised. Didn’t the Watcher warn you? Every universe is different, each one just a fraction unique. Thus the Infinity Stones are unique."
"Of course. The Crusher was designed to destroy the stones on my world, not his."
However, what's wild is that Ultron could use the stones in each universe. So, I think the answer is that the stones are based upon the same initial big bang, thus allowing Ultron to use the stones across each universe (similar to how the time heist stones could be used in more than one universe). However, even a branched universe ends up with a tiny difference in the stones, so the crusher didn't work as it was specifically programmed for Gamora's universe. It's honestly hard to understand how the stones did work but the crusher didn't. But that's the best I can come up with.
2. I think the only reason that the Sacred Timeline branches needed to be kept alive by Loki is the 616 universe branches were placed in the loom, which was an artificial constructed created by HWR. All of the other universes follow their natural cycles, which seem to be a "big bang" followed by a "big crunch" and then back to another "big bang". So they are kept alive by their normal cycles.
Hope that helps. Let me know what you think. And thanks so much for watching the vid and sharing your thoughts. Really appreciate it!
@AbitofEverything4U Thank you for this very detailed answer. I really appreciated it.
@@nikolaswallau My pleasure!
Loki content gives me life! 💚
Loki was such an amazing series. Love it so much!
This makes a lot of sense! So it seems like Loki so far has dealt with branched universes off 616, while MoM, Spiderverse and No Way Home are dealing with these alternate universes that have different origin points. I suppose with infinite of these realities, some would be similar to 616 with Earth existing and some of the same characters while some are just completely different. Perhaps the web of destiny or whatever it's called plays some role in causing people like Peter Parker to exist in different universes even if they're born at different points in time etc.
Also, I think I have figured out why the other Loki variants don't all look the same. Sylvie, Classic Loki etc are technically from branches off 616, where they were born looking different. In Season 1 we saw that timelines can be changed to a point before it starts branching too far, so I think those timelines just co-existed and were weaved together with the sacred timeline until eventually a nexus point happened that would result in a new Kang (or perhaps it branching off and connecting with an alternate universe?) and so that's when the TVA stepped in and pruned that branch.
This would also explain why in MoM, going to another universe for too long would cause an incursion, while in What If Natasha was able to go live in a branch timeline, which is essentially just like Sylvie living in the branched 1982.
The Spider-Verse movies don’t officially count for the MCU. One of the directors of Across the Spider-Verse said the MCU references were just meta references for fun and that they didn’t work with Marvel Studios nor is it tied to the MCU
Good theories on the different Loki variants. I think that makes alot of sense. As for the Spider-Verse, sadly I agree with @tannerp.4996 that the directors have said there is no crossover between the Spider-Verse and the MCU, which is a bummer. Hoping it turns out that we do get one down the line anyway!
@@tannerp.4996 Yeah that's such a bummer. I hope we do get a cross-over one day, but the directors seemed really clear in their comments. Sigh.
Woah! ur theory on how the exiled one is actually HWR is freaking brilliant!!
Yeah, isn't that a wild theory? Kudos to Marvel for the very clever misdirect by making us think it was the exiled Kang. But I suspect the Kang Council doesn't even care about that dude (even though they might end up regretting that) and instead are totally miffed at HWR for weaponizing Alioth, beating them back, and then hiding behind the loom. Can't wait to see where the multiverse saga goes from here!
1. Quantumania post credits scene should be in Loki season 2, it would be less confusing.
2. Loki basically became the Watcher of 616 and it's branches. I wonder if they meet one day.
Yeah, I agree, the QM post credit would have worked great for the end of Loki. I suspect they wanted it as a big tease at the end of QM, so they stuck it there instead. But, you are totally right that it would have been great as post credit for Loki S2. And I love the idea of Loki meeting the Watcher. That would be epic!
I've finally grown okay with the 616 identification for the MCU but only if they don't tie-in the comics to their multiverse if we're keeping those completely separate it works but the second they bring in a comic animated type character from the comics universe for like secret wars or something it breaks that identification
Amen to that! I agree 100%. Feige has been quoted as saying that the MCU is the live action adaption of the comics, so as long as he keeps to that, then we'll be fine. Very well said!
Love the content!
Everything starts to fit together .
Two questions though …..
1) Are there many 616-Kangs? and do they prove a different threat than the colosseum or multiverse Kangs?
2)Was the original point of the TVA to prune timelines that lead to just 616-Kangs ……that might lead to different versions of the 616-he who remains ……which then may therefore lead to a nexus point ….which then may connect to the other universes (trees) ?
OR
Was the TVA just pruning them dangerous branches that would connect them to other universes (trees) and therefore making them Visible to to the multiverse (forest) and the multiverse Kangs?
😊😊
Great questions!
1. I think HWR originally came from 616 and he created the sacred timeline to ensure no new Kangs would come from 616. I think the Kangs in the coliseum are from different universes than 616. In Loki S1 E6 HWR described the other Kang's universes as being "stacked on top of each other" so I don't think they came from 616 branches.
2. This article by Michael Waldron (writer of Loki S1) is really helpful: screencrush.com/michael-waldron-interview-loki-heels/. In it, he explains that the goal of the TVA was to prune any branches that would create a new Kang/HWR variant. So I suspect that the TVA was only pruning the branches that HWR made them aware of...i.e. the ones that would create a new HWR. I suspect they weren't even aware that there was more than one branch wound in the loom...since HWR wanted them to focus only on the branches he considered dangerous.
Hope that helps. Really appreciate you watching the vid and sharing your feedback! Love chatting with fellow MCU fans!
Loki is the centre of Earth-616 not the Multiverse. A little disappointing because I liked the idea that he saved literally everything but I guess that makes more sense so that we can still have characters like the Watcher
Right...it's okay for Loki to just be controlling 616 and any branches as we do indeed still get the Watcher(s). And I think it will be cool to slowly see the tree to start coming into contact with the rest of the multiverse as that will result in the TVA expanding their mission, I suspect. Can't wait to see where things go from here!
Robert, don't worry, it's the multiverse. Undeniably the multiverse. It's not just one universe with multiple timelines. This video is so painfully wrong that I'm tempted to make my own video debunking it.
If you have any doubts. The recently released Loki Season 2 behind the scenes show is out and they immediately, in the first few minutes of the show, start talking about the multiverse.
In all of their interviews about the show, they constantly refer to the Sacred Timeline and the aftermath, as the multiverse.
The tree is EVERYTHING THERE IS. It is the multiverse.
It's not one universe that might one day reach other universes.
@@ChillingTruthsWow...bummer to see you to describe the video as "painfully wrong", but oh well. I respect that you don't agree with it. Thx for watching and sharing your feedback!
@@AbitofEverything4Uignore him, he's wrong
@@Foxtrot5 Thanks! Yeah, I personally feel the model in the vid is accurate, however, I'm always open to other's feedback. But really do I appreciate your support!
The terminology is the one thing that will consistently and constantly throw me off. I'm pretty sure everything you said here makes sense, and I want to believe it. But it's really hard when the information is so confusing and mixed up.
Not to mention imagining all the timelines of the universe as a tree is difficult to fully process, much less the concept of infinite timelines as well.
Also, now with the Quantum Bands causing that massive break, that also makes me wonder if they're supposed to be on America Chavez's level, or is this saying the X-Verse on the same "tree" as the MCU?
As a funny point to end on, while you're probably right that Loki's Tree isn't Yggdrasil, technically Loki's Tree does contain the Nine Realms (times infinity), so it's like a Super Infinite-Sized Yggdrasil.
I agree that the terminology is confusing. I think that's why looking at the overall concepts helps, because then the specific wording used isn't as important. But it's still confusing at times, I definitely agree on that.
As for the quantum bands, my guess is that those are Kang tech of some sort and will explain how the Kangs were able to find each other prior to the multiversal war (basically that meeting that HWR describes in S1 E6). So I do think that that rip in space was between two different alternate universes. I don't think the X-verse is on the same tree as the MCU. So that does mean the Kangs can do the same thing America can do. But what makes America unique is she can do it w/o using any tech. It's a natural ability.
And I love your point about a Super Infinite-Sized Yggdrasil. That's epic!
The branches are what allows different universes to interact and connect. That's what the red line is
Agreed...as long as universes are connected by a branch, there is no harm in jumping between them. Well said!
There is going to be a point where marvel finally makes this all clear in a movie and then people are gonna start posting those edits with epic music about HWR saying "I isolated our timeline" and then some cool shots and edits of the timeline because they will finally learn what we all already know.
Without jokes though, i would really love if they clear this up big time since so many people seem to think the multiverse was born in the end of season 2.
I agree 100%...I really hope they do something to clear this up soon. I personally think it's very clear, but there are alot of people that see it differently. Hope Marvel makes it more clear soon!
The tree is separate from the sacred timeline. When they show the zoomed out of the tree growing, you can clearly see the sacred timeline in that same zoomed out panned shot. Sacred time line is visually shown to be a ring. that ring is still there with the tree growing next to/around the sacred timeline. What the cgi artist is telling us as shown in that shot, is that both the sacred timeline and multiverse co-exists but are kept separate, meaning no interference from either of them. That's how I interrupted it.
I don't know that we can tell from the tree image what Loki is holding, but we only saw him gathering the branches that came from the loom, so I don't think he's holding the multiverse. Additionally, I think the other issues in the vid indicated it can't be the multiverse. We don't see him holding paint or cube universes and it doesn't seem he would want to hold separate universes like 838 in the tree or he would be creating his own incursions. So I think that if you take all the hints and clues we've gotten so far, it seems it is only the sacred timeline and it's branches. But just my take on it.
New to the channel love it so far
Thanks so much...great to have you here!
Question: do you believe that what happens in the closing scenes of the Marvels (no spoilers in case its too soon) is a direct result of what happened at the end of Loki? I mean obviously what happened is a function of how the bands are used but is the result ultimately the fault of what happens in Loki? Because I also remember in No Way Home,Dr. Strange saying the spell should not have had the effect that it had...and this was before Strange learned about incursions. All these things are a direct result of the boundaries between universes weakening and breaking down. That's just the thought I have been having watching your videos, thinking about what Loki is saying and what Quantumania is saying (both of which are looking at the damage from outside time) and now three separate movies detailing incursions (No Way Home,Multiverse of Madness and now the Marvels). It is super exciting to see such big concepts in play but each piece only gives us a piece of the overall puzzle! I love it!
I think you are 100% correct. I do indeed think that Dar-Benn had no idea that what happened in The Marvels would happen, as she thought she was just opening a new jump gate. So yes, I do think we are seeing the boundaries between universes slowly eroding away and that we'll see more and more things happening like that. Very cool stuff...can't wait to see where the multiverse saga goes from here!
Miguel O'Hara called the Spider-Verse a “polimultiverse” in Across the Spider-Verse, so your theory of each universe doubling as a multiverse actually works pretty well with everything else that has been established.
Excellent point...I agree, that phrasing by Miguel worked really well with the overall model!
A timeline is a collection of events. A universe is a collection of timelines. A multiverse is a collection of universes.
Yep...well said! And then an omniverse is a collection of alternate universes or a collection of multiverses (both descriptions work).
I was confused about the watcher's view of the multiverse in comparison to HWR until season 2 dropped. I was confused about the connection between what If and the LIVE ACTION stuff until I came to this conclusion with consideration to theories from tubers like you and MT and Paul from Heavy Spoilers .I started to realize how many times they showed us the 616 on the chrono monitors or how many times it was mentioned in the show . Also what Kate Herron and Mike Waldren said about the concepts after season 1. Very intriguing how intricate and delicately this narrative and reality is being written and illustrated . No wonder Marvel is dragging this out . These are big concepts . And I hear word of Eternity Wars . I see how Marvel is setting that up through Wanda's backstory and Thor Love and Thunder. This is going to be CRAZYYYY. But yeah so the Watcher so far appears to have an even broader view of the multiverse . Infinity Ultron might be more powerful than HWR. Really puts things into perspective. Im so hype
Yeah, this stuff is so exciting. Can't wait to see how it all comes together as we get closer and closer to Secret Wars!
Hello, I love your content however a question I have is that befour the creation of the infinity stones there were the celestials so are celestials different in each universe or did they just make different infinity stones in each universe?
What a great question! My guess is there is one set of Celestials for each universe at its origin point (i.e. big bang). After that, when a universe branches (like in What If), ig guess it probably creates a new group of Celestials for that new branch. The main reason I am thinking that's the case is that the Eternals killed Tiamut in our universe, but I suspect he wasn't killed in other branched "What If" universes off of 616. So that's my theory at this point. Hope that helps!
Yeah, I agree. If you have just one timeline in all universes, convergens are almost imposible. But if you have infinite timelines, the convergens will become more common, until it could destroy both universes.
Well said!
I think we need to talk about spiderman next. What is going on in No Way Home given the rules set out in Loki? What about Spiderverse? Are the Noir and Spiderpig universes separate universes or branches? What about the Amazing and Sam Raimi universes? Does The Web or Steven Strange or the portal watch give spiderman the same powers as America to cross universes? Will the MCU incorporate these non-canon universes?
So I think this model of the multiverse works really well with NWH. Basically Dr. Strange knew the spell was risky, but he was also used to the more controlled multiverse that had been in place all this time (due, ofc, to the loom). So he cast the spell and then suddenly it went way worse due to the loom being gone and the 616 universe now being exposed to the other alternate universes. So, I think the Raimi and Amazing universes are indeed alternate universes. As for the other Spider-Verse universes, I sure hope Sony and Marvel put their heads together and make it all work. I really want to see a huge crossover coming. So hopefully they all play ball and follow the same rules. Fingers crossed!
LETS GO!
Thanks for watching!
I think one counterpoint to the "tree within a forest" is that it's quite likely the tree motif is a reference to Yggdrasil, the World Tree, from Norse mythology, which is a solitary tree in which exist all of the nine realms. Now that doesn't mean there can't be different world trees for different universes, or that the different universes experience fundamentally different forms of physics means that the Loki-tree wouldn't work in them, but it's worth pointing out.
One thing I noticed when thinking about this is how there are some interesting similarities between Loki's new position and three other figures in Norse mythology: the Norns. Like Loki, the Norns are jotun, giants. Like Loki, they reside within Yggradsil and nourish it with their magic. And the Norns are famous for controlling the threads of fate, which obviously has parallels to the weaving imagery we've seen with the loom.
The Norns control the destiny of men in Norse mythology, often subtly through slight alterations. I wonder if what we're seeing Loki do when he saves the timelines is basically use his magic to nudge all these timelines in such a way that Kang (or any other multiversal threat) cannot reach them, thus letting those who live on them survive in peace. I think this explanation works especially nicely because it means that what Loki is doing and what the TVA is doing are essentially the same task, so he's still inextricably linked to the TVA and the work of his friends.
I also think this theory works regardless of whether you consider it to be 616 or the entire multiverse. It also potentially means that you can still do stories with characters like America Chavez in different universes as we just say that Loki knows she is not a threat.
Love the nods to Norse mythology. That was fun to read!
Please tell where did Victor Timely go after Loki became Loki Who Remains
Great question...so my head canon is that the older Victor joined the TVA and helped write that new edition of the TVA manual. After all he went through in season 2, he definitely deserves a happy ending!
Great work on the amount of research you put into the video. I agree with a lot of what you said but I am not sure the council of Kangs were referring to He who Remains. Since Kang from Quantumania said that he was exiled and in the end credit they say the exiled one is dead.
Thanks so much for the positive feedback on the vid. Really appreciate it. As for the exiled one, yeah, that's just my theory. I think it was a sneaky misdirect by Marvel. If you are interested, I do cover it in abit more detail in this short vid: th-cam.com/video/-_ayPVJwDOA/w-d-xo.html.
Hear me out
Why would they call it 616 if they are only aware of this Alternate Universe
It's just coming out of my mind but I think the part of TVA we saw was dealing only with 616 while other parts of TVA maybe in the chronopolis of which we didn't see much who deal with other Alternative Universes???
Good question...my assumption is that they have been calling it 616 from the beginning (based on all of their labeling) and when they saw that the Ant Gang (Scott, Hope, Hank, etc) went into the Quantum Realm, they tracked them there and referred to it as an adjacent realm. That said, I do think they will be come aware of the greater multiverse...I was more just meaning their goal is to protect 616 and the tree. That's their core mission. But we'll likely learn more about their expanded mission when Deadpool 3 hits theaters. Can't wait for that to arrive!
30:00 Imagine Avengers Endgame, Thanos destroyed the stones.
God Loki comes in: "Let's shorten things up. Here are some other stones I found in the TVA. Bye."
Thanos: "Damit."
Would be funny for sure. xD
LOL! Love it!