The explanation about Lordran gave me a "Ahah" moment. That's why people who are Undead go there. They're not going to be affected by time distortion like Sieglinde seems to be in the end. They're bodies "stay the same."
This is the way I understood time to work in Dark Souls. The reason enemies respawn when we rest at a bonfire is because that fire represents a tiny island of stable space-time in a sea of chaotic churning time tides. Rest at a fire, you see reality warp around you because the fire "stabilizes" your existence, for lack of a better term.
I think I read in an interview that monster respawns actually represent different but similar monsters appearing, which is why one of a kind monsters, NPCs, or bosses don't respawn. If that's true then I don't think there's much need to connect this to time destabilization, even though that's a neat idea. I also like the theory that any two bonfires not directly connected might be warping you through time as well as space, eg going from Firelink to Untended Graves.
That's an interesting point. But I think the rebirth specifically is due to the nature of undead in this game as a whole. The dead will rise again. As opposed to beings that do not respawn, none of whom are hollows and thus die once (or at least we don't see them again after death / bonfire reset. It does not explain other creatures coming back though, like basilisk and other non hollow beings so it could be that your explanation is more reasonable.
there is nothing in lore that explains enemies respawning, even time being convoluted, if the case were to be of the convolution, then bosses would respawn, special enemies, etc the true reason for this is simple, game balance if enemies remained dead after resting at a bonfire, then it would be an unbalanced game, its simple as that
@@afrochikkin am I lying? lol, there is a diffrence between gameplay and lore in dark souls, its a game after all, not everything in there is truly "realistic" as many think
I like to think Solaire did canonically link the flame. His image, his legend, is still prominent throughout history, even though his name is not. The Heirs of the Sun covenant in DS2 gives you his sword and a shield depicting his likeness. In DS3, its said his sword even contains the power of lightning, and can draw on faith, despite being a featureless longsword with no lightning damage. However, having the strength of lightning doesnt necessarily mean lightning damage. Instead, raising the sword aloft activates the Oath of Sunlight, blessing you with increased power and defense. Indeed, the ancient, featureless blade does yet contain traces of power. And yet, in Solaire’s lifetime, it never did. He never channeled any power through it. He did that through his talisman. His sword was unimportant, a simple tool, that he took great care of as it was as important as his armor or his talisman. And yet, in 2 we are told that simply holding it causes some warmth within, and by 3 it is called a “relic of one-sided adoration.” A mere longsword, that over time became worshipped as if it were something of legend, the sword of the Knight of Sunlight. It’s even safely tucked away in Lothric Castle, now coveted by a mimic, below their altar to Sunlight. Now, the real truest explanation first and foremost, is “one-sided adoration” means us, the players, who enjoy seeing icons of the past games. Its fan service first. Nevertheless, it exists canonically, and has gained power from worship by Lothric’s very own Sunlight Knights, the Lothric Knights protect and worship an old altar of Sunlight, carry the medals, and their crossbows and greatswords are infused with lightning. There are priests who cast Sacred Oath to aid them. These people were obsessed with the linking of the flame as well, before Lothric refused to do it. Obsessed with Sunlight, worshippers of the flame, coveters of a sacred sword. Maybe its just me, but this seems intentional.
@@scienceme9794 I think “the sun” in terms of Solaire’s quest is a metaphor for purpose, a drive. Something to stave off hollowing and something worth living and fighting for. Solaire sought “his own sun” and as such became an undead, journeying to Lordran to find said “sun.” What he finds there, is fellow undead, searching for their own “suns.” For many, their purpose was to become legend. Be it linking the fire, harnessing ancient lost magics, or even just becoming powerful by stealing the souls of lords. For Solaire, what exactly “his own sun” means is unclear. I wants to be “grossly incandescent,” enjoys “jolly cooperation,” and has trained rigorously on simple tools he painted holy symbols on himself. He needed no sacred sword, or blessed impenetrable golden armor. He’s not a high-ranking paladin like Leeroy, or a warrior cleric like Vince and Nico. He’s an ordinary man. So what exactly does he want? What is this “sun” he seeks? Patches calls him a “complete idiot.” To just “nod along and keep him on your side.” And yet, our very first encounter with him says otherwise. He’s no genius, but he clearly pays close attention and understands that which he cares for more than anyone. His prowess in battle compares to that of even mighty Ornstein and Smough, and even Gwyn himself, hollow as he is. But combat isn’t all he’s cared to research. His very first branch of dialogue reveals he knows a lot more about what is happening to Lordran, and as such the subsequent lands of fading flame, than anyone else we encounter. “The way I see it, our fates appear to be intertwined. In a land brimming with hollows, could that really be mere chance? So, what do you say? Why not help one another on this lonely journey?” He believes that in such a desolate place drawing in countless undead in search of hope, that your meeting is not just coinciding journeys. I of course refer now to his infamous line many often write off as lazy cop out for game mechanics. "We are amidst strange beings, in a strange land. The flow of time itself is convoluted; with heroes centuries old phasing in and out. The very fabric wavers, and relations shift and obscure. There's no telling how much longer your world and mine will remain in contact.” This video already covers this. So my point is, he’s not dumb. He knows what he’s doing and where he is and what’s happening better than anyone. And yet, he simply cannot find his “sun.” Maybe he doesnt even know what it is. Maybe, like seemingly many other knights before him, based on their drops, he thought that the sunlight maggot was the key. After all, it resembles the crown of Gwyn’s son and shines brilliantly. But maybe he only believed such out of desperation. He doesn’t think he’s close when he sits in the cave before Izalith. He’s depressed, losing faith. Like any man, when his faith is tested, it can wear thin. He desperately searches for hope, something, anything. But before he makes a fatal mistake, you squash a bug. He’s left alive longer to ponder. And yet, he doesnt go hollow. Anyone else wouldve hollowed by this point. He was losing faith in his drive, he was in the deepest and darkest pit in all of Lordran, and his last ditch desperate attempt fails. So, why do we find another summon sign, in the Kiln? Solaire pressed on anyway. Frampt had to have brought him there and he had to have presented the lord souls to the Lordvessel. What kept him going? Well, his Sun. You. He isn’t rude or demeaning when you decline his offers: “Well, yes, quite understandable. Not to worry. Not to worry. I do not wish to impose. I was in the wrong. We'll laugh it off, shall we? Hah hah hah!” He enjoys your company: “You've left me with quite an impression. I would relish a chance to assist you.” And he even lets slip a little more than he intends to: “You really are fond of chatting with me, aren't you? If I didn't know better, I'd think you had feelings for me! Oh, no, dear me. Pretend you didn't hear that! Hah hah hah!” So, exactly what he feels towards you is unclear, but he deeply cares for you. He will do anything he can to aid you, and cheerily laughs off being declined. He never pushes, and asks nothing in return. He’s also used to being seen as weird or off putting: “Do you find that strange? Well, you should! No need to hide your reaction. I get that look all the time! Hah hah hah!” Though he admits to you that deep down he’s afraid of being remembered only as a weirdo with a strange, obscure goal: “But I cannot give up. I became Undead to pursue this! But when I peer at the Sun up above, it occurs to me... What if I am seen as a laughing stock, as a blind fool without reason? Well, I suppose they wouldn't be far off! Hah hah hah!” He admits things to you you don’t tell to strangers. So, even deep in the depths of the world, and even in the Kiln beyond time, he pushes forward. He has to. Because, and though he may not realize it, he found his own Sun, and he has to protect it. He didn’t find a literal radiant orb of plasma, some ancient power of the gods, nothing like that. He found a real, genuine, friend. Because the real Sun, was the friends we made along the way. Solaire. Siegmeyer. Andre. The Giant Smith. Laurentius. Griggs. Logan. Dusk. Reah. Quelana. Gough. Our teachers, guides, allies, and most importantly, friends. Because the truest purpose in life, is being the Sun for those around you. A radiant beacon of light, warm, friendly, fun, a guide to follow to safety, someone trustworthy and reliable. You are the Sun.
but there cant be two lords of cinder at the same age, and besides, if solaire DID link the fire, we wouls get his charred equipment in 2 and 3, and besides, the thing regarding his sword is his obsession regarding the sun making his blade have sunlight powers, like how lucatiels fear of hollowing made her sword deal more dmg to hollows
@@Ahrpigi did you read by chance lokey's doc Smoughtown left below AND the interview? Miyazaki clearly says the ending he PREFERS, not the CANONICAL ONE, there is a clear distinction in the interview that what miyazaki said was his opinion alone. Here is his quote: "I THINK that the happiest ending for him is to die by becoming the sun!" its clear here that its not confirmed, just miyazakis opinion, if my opinion is canon in dark souls, for example, "i think that the happiest ending for gwyndolin is him dying", thats my opinion, BUT, is this opinion canon? No, of course not, Gwyndolin is alive in Ds3, AND, solaires equipment can be found in Ds2 AND 3 (NOT CHARRED), so, he died by our hands canonically, WE become the lord of cinder, there CANNOT be two lords at the same time
I often think about how bosses or some characters permanently stay dead. If time is stagnant, it makes sense to me that killing something of immense power disrupts the stagnancy, much like a large splash, that resumes time flow but just for a moment.
I was thinking, didn't Tarkus slay the Iron Golem? How did it come back? This is probably the explanation for it, lol. Your world and Tarkus's world are separated.
@@incrediblybored4787I’m pretty sure there are a lot of iron golems, as Sen’s fortress is a test to seek out chosen undead. However, the flow of time is muddied, so I wouldn’t be surprised if the explanation is that face value
I want to push back a little on the idea that "stagnated" is a better word choice than "convoluted" to describe what's going on with time in Lordran. I think the issue is that in modern common use, "convoluted" is used pretty much exclusively to mean "needlessly complex and difficult to follow", usually in the context of the plot of a story and always in a dismissive way. But that's not literally what the word means. Convolution describes something physical, which is wound in on itelf in complex patterns. In a medical context, the complicated pattern of "wrinkles" of the brain are referred to as convolutions, and it's not uncommon to use the word to describe the winding looping path of the intestines as well. So now let's return to Lordran and the river and whirlpool analogy. If there were a river, and the flow of water were interrupted by a whirlpool which violently sucks water down into itself, only for that water to flow through many complex underground tunnels back up into the swirling vortex, with the maelstrom becoming ever more chaotic as it sucks the water down quicker to keep up with the constant addition of water from upstream, I personally would not use the word stagnant to describe that situation - even though the end result is that the water is trapped and unable to continue downstream. Stagnancy, in english at least, implies stillness, and it is clear that time is not still in Lordran - even if it is unable to continue down its natural path, it still swirls and moves in complex, winding, mazelike patterns as it circles the metaphorical drain. If it were truly still, worlds would not be able to move in and out of alignment, as Solaire describes. As a result of all this, I think "convoluted" more fully captures the state of time than "stagnant" does. Or perhaps it's more accurate to say that both words convey different things about what's going on with time in Lordran, but in the context of what Solaire is talking about in that quote - the unpredictable overlapping and un-overlapping of worlds - "convoluted" is the more appropriate choice.
Wonderful analogy - leads me to the conclusion that in the events up to the DLC of DS3 time is indeed convoluted, however this convolution towards the end of the dark souls story lends itself more to stagnancy as the worlds and times collide around a central point in an indistinguishable and entropic state.
Yes, the word convolution is clearly linguistically related to revolution. Both have meanings related to twisting, turning, rolling, coiling. Great insight.
The conversation with Solaire was the moment I was cemented firmly into my love for Souls. Something about the way time is shifting and convoluted terrified me and also intrigued me to no end. To this day this game has impacted my life more than any other.
The bit about time stagnating and DS2's dark sign being a spiral reminded me of a passage from Berserk. "Many people appear to repeat the same mistakes, but Karma is by no means a circle. Indeed, it is a spiral. Those children are not bound to choose the same fates you and I once did." - Flora
Dark souls 2 was always supposed to be seen as the mirror to Dark souls 1. The other side of the coin. When he says north and south pole, he doesn't literally mean they take place on different sides of the world. Think about poles, polar opposites, duality. Without dark, light cannot exist, because both exist in definition to eachother. Ie. They exist to define the other's existence. Up and down, left and right, hot and cold. Without one, the other ceases to exist.
THANK YOU. I’m tired of people writing off the time thing as “lazy” when it’s quite central to a lot of the themes of cyclical time, ages, striving and futility. It’s not just an explanation for multiplayer, it’s a key part of how this world works and what it all means.
Or it can be an ass pull writing tool to justify anything you didn't care to think about. Gwyn is back from the dead and has his soul back to bumfuck his entire family in an amazing incestual orgy (they have also returned from the past to relive the joy of smoking pot). Allthewhile he is working on his army of halfbreed children by commiting mass beastiality with the ancient dragons who were actually a part of this all along and conjures up an entire new race of baby bum dragons. During all this seath is revived by the first flame as a hot af anime lord of cinder version and gives him a rimjob while he is at it, to usher in the age of ass. Then all of the sudden spiderpatches utilizes interdimensional time travel to return to the Dark Souls franchise, live in his ear and conjures up a new religion of godly ear wax worship.
I think what happened with Heide is it's in a completely different place from Anor Londo. Gwynevere left Anor Londo for the Flame God Flann. As there are Heide Knights, it implies that Heide is the now submerged city that the Tower Of Flame resides in. It's also implied that Ornstein and Smough were illusions in the first game, so the "Old Dragonslayer" is Ornstein, who is guarding the Tower Of Flame. Those falcon statues seem to be Flann himself in my opinion. Gwynevere married Flann, so it's also possible that their offspring was named Heide, and that the falcon statues are Heide. But I think the first possibility is more likely. Also, Dark Souls 2 introduces a lot of other gods. Anor Londo is the city of gods, so it's clear that gods are a race of beings, not titles granted.
When Solaire said time is convoluted in Lordran back when I first met him, I didn't think much of it. Time being broken in some fashion just made sense to me and explained why personal timelines intersected while not being fully synchronized. DS3 just made it a lot more apparent that time, not just space, was on the verge of completely breaking apart because the Age of Fire hadn't been allowed to end like it was supposed to. That's how I've ended up viewing all of it anyway.
I want to know what caused the first flame to erupt into existence deep within that archtree's roots, and i wonder if the site of the kiln of the first flame used to be an archtree now burned to be nothing more than the ash caking the region meaning the age of fire was ending because its original fuel, the archtree, had been nearly spent
The fighting of the dragons and the finding of the souls that we are told in Dark Souls 1 is not a first hand account, it is what people in the universe are told. I feel that this is the case due to the narrator for both the legend and the Undead leaving the asylum being the same. Considering how Gwyn treated the humans of the Ringed City, not giving them any credit for fighting dragons, I wonder just how much of the tale of the First Flame is falsehoods and just what exactly happened. For example there is a very blatant contradiction in the existence of Nito "first of the dead", if he were truly the first to die then why and how does his body contain multiple individual's worth of bones?
@@ValsorayuI don't think that Nito is supposed to be "First Dead Guy" but rather that "Among all the Dead Guys, this guy here, he comes in First. He's the best of the Dead Guys."
My guess is lightning. In real life a lightning strike can cause the interior hollow of a tree to catch on fire. In terms of symbolism things like rain, comets, and lightning represent the will or action of the divine. In Tarot, The Tower Card is a tower getting struck by lightning which symbolizes a sudden change or end to the current status or stability. Trees and tower are corresponding symbols, so a tree being struck by lightning is, the same as a tower getting struck. To top it off, the game connects the Stone Dragons to the Stone Archtrees, marking the Dragons as part of this symbolism, and they are killed by lightning. This brings an end to one age and starts another one. And where is Gwyn's glorious city, on top of a tree aka a tower. Just my opinion.
I’m very happy to see you go back and cover Dark Souls lore. I remember finding you back during the Sekiro days and I’m glad to see you’ve kept it up all this time. You make some of the most quality Fromsoft lore videos in the community. Can’t wait to dive into this one
I really appreciate seeing a lore vid of yours with much care as the other ones you do. Despide many consider Dark Souls lore videos unnecessary by now, I believe it's worth looking into it now that there is much more awareness of the japanese translation issues. In particular, there's lots of older DkS lore videos that are now obsolete, since we didnt have the means to analyze them in the correct way back in the days where we couldnt extrapolate texts from the JP vers or look into all the cut content, these new takes on Dark Souls lore are more precious now than ever! Also with having played and analized both Bloodborne, Sekiro, and Elden Ring we now have a more clear grasp of fromsoft and Miyazaki's philosophies to read the game's story with the right key! Take for example the stagnation, it is basically present in all FS games, especially in Sekiro where NPCs explicitly talk about the danger of stagnation and immortality. I believe I'm not the only one who wishes for more content of yours dealing with older games like DkS or Demons Souls... personally I would like to see a complete looooong lore video of Sekiro with the same care you put into your recent vids! Love your content
Thanks my friend, I am honestly so stoked that people are still interested in these games and my coverage of it. When I started doing these videos years ago my understanding of the lore was very different. As a result I have much more to say about them now and will continue to cover the other games, as long as people are keen!
Ech, I'm hesitant to call older videos 'obsolete'. The whole thesis of these games is to build a greater sense of narrative through personal contexts and discussion. Insistence on any one absolutely true canon runs contrary to the narrative mode that the games are engaging in.
@@varsoonhks3211 I can agree with your idea that SmoughTown's old videos aren't obsolete. They can just be seen as an initial, less complete or less true analysis of the lore. Not useless, just not quite ideal to form a perfect explanation. Also, saying they are obsolete would mean they have no use, which, by their very nature of being entertaining as well as informational, is impossible as long as there are fans of FromSoft games or at the very least, those who enjoy anything these videos can give, even if it's a good laugh at our nerdiness. Lol! I also agree that the idea of us dissecting the game, discussing clues and theorizing on the lore is one of the main reasons it's not just spoon fed to us. What fun would that be? Besides, every bit of info given makes no difference anyway and we still question what and why and try to find meaning in what's not provided and we just end up making theories on context clues, plot holes and logical deduction of our observations of that which isn't said anyway. Why not just make it vague to begin with, make some popcorn and enjoy watching the theories fly? I will though, disagree that there isn't a true canon. There is, it's just that we as fans don't know it. At the least Miyazaki knows it. It's his story after all. I would suppose that his team also knows it, at least if not in it's entirety, much more than we know it now. I'm sure they wouldn't be able to so tightly weave the story in with the world building if they didn't at least have a pretty solid idea of the lore, though I don't think they would have to have a perfect understanding or the full story and all it's juicy details, they could suffice on a decent understanding of at least the relevant parts needed for their task and rely on the big M's guidance from there, to fill in the gaps. At any rate, I'm sure we can all agree that we are very thankful for Miyazaki, FromSoft and all the Lore, Build Guide, Story, PVP and Let's Play channels that have sprung up from this wonderful company and it's amazing game worlds filled to the brim with juicy, tantalizing lore. Especially SmoughTown. Thanks, mate! I can't wait to see what you come up with next.
Miyzaki clearly enjoys certain concepts - with them being present throughout his games. Faram Azula (or at least provably Placidusax's arena) is "beyond time" and is heavily tied with dragons formed of stone. Those Everlasting Dragons from Dark Souls are stoney too and are very much associated with being beyond the ravages of time...makes me think that the White Sign Soapstone could come from them!
Hawkshaw is where i first heard about the time convoluted being mainly a multiplayer mechanic during their timeline video. I definitely agree that time is convoluted, but always felt like it was more a force in the background. Like for example the Black knights around the world are clearly of the present and not a product of overlapping time, but when you rest or die the world resets kind of like time rolls back or the enemies drift in from another time.
Hawkshaw is a hack incapable of thinking. Please stop watching his videos. He’s not fit to lick smough’s boots. He said solaire is Miyazaki. If that isn’t proof, I don’t know what is.
Regarding Drangleic's location. I always thought that Lordran and the Kiln are indeed in two different locations in the world. Below Firelink Shrine is the portal (represented by the white void while going down the stairs) that connects the two locations. So the North/South pole quote from the dev is still valid.
Your comparison to things being a bubble of time and then a black hole also being mentioned has set my physics/space obsessed brain on a WILD bender of gravity, spacetime, and souls lore. What an incredible video
You know, it almost seems to me like the further you go in the timeline, the more insulated the Kiln and the lands pulled into its orbit become from the rest of the world. Like, in DS1, you can just get a crow to fly you into Lordran, in DS2 you have to go through a rift in spacetime, and in DS3, you’re just already there. It seems to me that as the Age of Fire keeps getting stretched onward and more lands are pulled into the affected “bubble”, it becomes harder and harder for new people to get in. Maybe that’s the real reason why in DS3, it becomes necessary to resort to recycling old Lords of Cinder and Unkindled Ash. It’s not just that there are no more Undead willing to throw themselves on the Fire- it may be that any who might be willing to do it can’t get in because of how the Kiln has become so isolated in spacetime. It’s almost like a kind of natural defense against those who would force the stagnation to continue. The more the Fire is rekindled, the more sealed off it becomes from anyone else who would try. Just another thing to drive home that no matter how hard people may fight against it, nature will eventually take its course.
This is the explanation I’ve been looking for all this time. I was one who downright hated the “time is convoluted” line. Now it makes so much more sense to me, so thank you once again for an incredible analysis on one of my favorite art pieces of all time!
Looking back at the line, once you know he really means "stagnant", it fits in with the theme used theought the series perfectly. But when he says "convoluted", it always came across dismissive. Like he was saying, "Whats up with time?...Lordran is crazy yo...Hey! Did I tell you I paint my own gear?! I could paint yours and we could be jolly good Sunbros!"
I haven't watched the video yet, but one example I remembered when it came to time is convoluted involved Big Hat Logan and the magic blacksmith. With the way the blacksmith was talking about Logan you'd think he appeared in Lordran centuries ago but if talk to Big Hat Logan and his apprentice (or whoever that was) it seems like they just recently got there.
I don't agree with the Heide thing, I've always thought Heide was founded by Gwynevere and Flame God Flann after they left Anor Londo; with the Tower Of Flame having something to do with Flann. Heide's resemblance of Anor Londo might come from Gwynevere copying some designs from her home. Even placing a knight resembling Ornstein, and founding a covenant mirroring Blades Of The Darkmoon. But your theory is just as good as mine, DS2 doesn't elaborate on it much more hah
Hi! great video, I would also highlight that the Dark Souls and Elden Ring series holds a pretty dreamy reality. Slumbering is a big thing in this games and we all know that time inside dreams is a bit special
I think something is worth mentioning. You said, that in a bubble where time is not linear, certain events remain same and every timeline is heading towards the same end. I think in DS3, the travelling lands don’t only imply that every part of the world is now in this bubble, but also that the world itself is moving all the different timeline to a final end (Dreg Heap and finally Gael’s ash arena). The spacetime of all DS universe is merging together to share the last mutual timeline - burning of the whole world.
Honestly "covoluted" makes more intuitive sense than "stagnant" at least in a non Japanese context. Most would assume "stagnant" implies a slowing or stillness of time. It only starts to reflect the state of things in Dark Souls once you apply that "river of time" and "pooling" analogy that's more culture-specific. I can see why the translation changed things.
I agree with the analysis within this vid, and this is one of my fav Souls topics as well. Especially love characters like Big Hat and Tarkus 'intersecting' with our worlds and times.
I’ve always been curious about this topic, and it’s fascinated me immensely. I think it’s safe to say that I will be putting the Abyssal Archive at the TOP of my Christmas Wishlist this year.
I think I roughly pieced some of this together myself while playing and watching lore videos. I was able to string together that there was no time in the real sense in the Age of Ancients, and I figured that since the First Flame represents change and disparity, and that time started moving once it came about, it must be tied to time as well. So I figured time was breaking down as the Flame fades, allowing all kinds of wonkyness. Never picked up on it being limited to Lordran only though.
The fact that time is related to first flame kinda makes me question this theory, there is a bit of contradiction, a lot points to problems happening because age of fire being kept going far too long and that is source of stagnation, but age of fire IS tied to flow of time, which means that without fire wont flow normally which means we will have stagnation. How age of fire can be both orgin of flowing time and at the same time orgin of its stagnation, only explanation that would make sense is that its the end of age of fire that is source of stagnation but this theory and a lot of hints in game points in completly oposite direction saying that continuation of age of fire, which means flowing time is source of problems not its solution, this makes no sense to me.
@@Culaio I think maybe it's like a stagnation of a cycle rather than just stagnation. I don't know if it all makes sense, but regarding what you are saying, this is what I'm thinking. The age of dragons is a kind of cold and timeless period, it can be considered 'natural'. Fire shows up, and whether it is 'natural' or not in the same way, it seems that it's naturally not supposed to exist forever. The age of fire is supposed to show up, end, and the cold age will begin again, and the age of fire or maybe a new age will begin only to eventually end. This is probably the cycle of the world, but the overall cycle is being stagnated due to Gwyn's actions. I guess in a weird way, the cold age of dragons is not exactly stagnation, unless maybe there was a way for a dragon to pause the cycle like Gwyn does. And maybe rather than being a timeless age, maybe time flows, just vastly differently in comparison to time during an age of flames. But this last bit could maybe be wrong, the intro of DS1 might even say that the age of dragons is a timeless age, but I don't know for sure.
Excellent video. The nature of time in Dark Souls reminds me of Dragon Breaks from the elder scrolls series. You have multiple people experiencing the same time period, but with radically different events occurring from their points of view. After the bubble/dragon break resolves, we get a set of fixed outcomes, but the events that caused those outcomes are unclear, overlapping and subjective, with different contradicting events somehow all occuring. One of my favorite parts of both games lore!
YES! Thank you so much for bringing this concept to the english-speaking community. A very prominent italian souls content creator, Sabaku, introduced us to the concept a couple of years ago, but has since stopped working on his lore explanation video series. Great to see someone finally analysing the original text and the cultural influences
Beautiful work as always. Up till now I was under the impression that time convulsion was mostly a game mechanic that was hewn into the lore. I am now thinking it might be the reverse, or that the mechanic from demon souls inspired them to elaborate more on time and that was the reason DS1 looks as it is, a mess of time and space. Really great video to watch. You are one of the corner stones of the From Soft lore as far as I'm concerned.
Thank you for plugging lokeys lore physical copy I knew someone would be a big enough of a masocist to put all this lore into a book form! I am going to order every book to put into my library.
I have never played any of these games. And I don’t really plan on it. But you explain the concepts so clearly that I keep watching more of your videos and understand each concept you bring up. Thank you for being so careful in your wording and dedicated to making these fantastic explanation and discussion video essays.
Thank you Daniel, it's honestly so great to hear that because it took time for me to getting the writing to a point I was happy. Really appreciate it and thanks for the support
@@iroquoiskaram8639 Unfortunately some of us don't have the relevant consoles, and the PC experience seriously sucks. They are not good PC ports. It takes a lot of tinkering and patching to get them to be enjoyable at all imo.
@@delphicdescant Um no? Dark Souls 1 is the only janky game but DS 2 and 3 work perfectly from the get-go. Also Elden Ring is very well optimized and even on the minimum requirements you'll be able to enjoy high preset and 60 fps at 1080p. There is also Sekiro, extremely well polished and a great experience from start to finish.
Ah, I can't explain how happy a notifications for your vids makes me. I usually first see the discord server notification and I just know my day will be good😊 As per usual your voice and work is my favourite company on the 2 hour commute to and back fro the university. Cheers Smough, may warm sunlight always guide your way.
I have to tell you something stonkingly relevant. In Irish mythology, time is convoluted/stagnant/unmoving/ineffable. Although there are multiple examples there is a famous one that is actually annotated and explained. A hero comes across Saint Patrick's grave and speaks with his ghost but it is one thousand years before Patrick is even born. This kind of thing is a clear influence in my opinion. Not quite related to this argument but dark souls ii related, the irish pantheon of gods would usually send a fly or beetle to drop itself into a woman's wine as a form of immaculate conception to create a demigod child. Chaos bugs nah? ❤ Excellent video as always
I always thought the "the flow of time is convoluted" line could have some deeper meaning, but I could never pin it down myself. I like this interpretation!
I think I got way too into the series many years ago, because a lot of the stuff you said, primarily the Bubble section, is exactly what I thought of for how time worked in the series. To hear some of my past ideas get reinforced by such respected members of the souls community to such a near exact degree is kinda crazy. Won't lie, got a little more excited than I should have. XD I have also learned a ton in this as well, especially in respects to the ideas of "space" in the series. Also Solair being the worm, granted I may have heard it before and just forgot. This was a fantastic video and I hope you tackle the Souls trilogy again in the future!
Man I just love this kind of shit, I've seen 1 or 2 of your videos pre elden ring and then dove in heavy when that came out. I really have such a love and passion for the lore and philosophy of these games, and your videos really tickle my adhd g spot. Never stop
Its insane that Dark souls lore is kinda like university academia, peer reviewing essays and citing references and all that. Fromsoft lore is now basically a school subject. Even miyazaki could not have predicted this.
The swirling effect/black hole reference, and explaining the convolution and stretching of the land and time surrounding the first flame really got me. Excellent video. You and a few others have absolutely made these games come to life far more than they ever would’ve otherwise for a lot of us. Thanks, and Keep it up.
You know, I hadn't realised how much I like your speaking voice until now. Your articulation is really pleasing from a purely auditory perspective. Also nice to see you do more DS1 stuff!
Also i randomly stumbled on Lokey when I was considering the lore of Brightstone Cove Tseldora in DS2. Their article was one of the few relevant results I found when searching for some fairly obscure stuff. And the ending of this did such fine work in explaining a subject that is often complicated to understand. I wonder how much time has passed in stagnant places, but it really doesn't matter as time means little when you're in a time eddy
I scratched my head about "gwyn *always* linked the fire/there must be just this one universe" (starting at 21:20). This follows the anthropic principle, meaning that we only can observe the realities/parallel universes which followed that exact path, because the player lives in that reality. Still, in theory, other universes, e.g. where gwyn never lit the first flame, *could* exist. However, we'd never be able to observe them, because we're not living in one of those realities and hence are "locked out" of that ending/timeline. Sooo tl;dr: we gotta assume that there are other universes, but we can simply not observe them because we're not in it.
Well, it's possible there are other universes, just like how that may be the case in real life, but we'll never get a solid answer or proof for real life or DS. And as far as we are concerned, these alternate universes don't exactly matter to us because whether they do or don't exist universally, they don't exist for us.
Love to see Smough going back to DS Lore to supplement the newer lore content from ER and Bloodborne! Great, now I might have to drop everything and play Dark Souls. Praise the Sun(day), my friends \[T]/
@@SmoughTown It's always a treat to watch your lore vids! I watch then during long cardio sessions and they make time fly because they're so engrossing. Much love, Smough :)
Time fades alongside the first flame, time becomes convoluted and doesnt progress beyond the moment the flame would die until the flame recieves kindling from many npcs and players growing in strength and resuming the flow of time. The times where it was kindled and we as players were not involved were times in which it was kindled long before it faded to the extent it did in dark souls 1 or 3
"Time is Convoluted" is the reason Dark Souls and its lore are so amazing. For something that appears to be a run-of-the-mill dark fantasy game to tackle themes of space and time, but rarely outwardly state them, is unlike anything else.
Whoa… the idea that the Carthus Sandworm could be Solaire after thousands of years with the parasite blew my mind! It makes sense since his last location is demon ruins/lost izalith.
I've always thought about this in cycles. Everything in Dark Souls feeds into it, even the NG+ mechanic. Given enough time, everything that has happened will happen again. Time being convoluted, to me simply means that we get to interact with other cycles, including the heroes and villains of those cycles. What happens, has always happened, and will happen again, eventhough, perhaps slightly different each time. It's a deep time explanation, not a parallel worlds theory.
I like your theory. That would explain how in one cycle we link the flame but in another cycle we become a Dark Lord and it's also explained how Solaire links the flame in his world. Meaning he's simply coming to help you from another cycle and when he returns to his cycle he links the flame.
I always considered Lordran (and more recently, the Lands Between) to be a Purgatory realm. A metaphysical half-corporeal land where the rules can bend and shift. I think a lot of Dark Souls (certainly the first) is intended be interpative and open-ended.
The whole 'flowing water v stagnant water' is a strong theme in Sekiro too: the waters of the Fountainhead Palace can offer immortality to those who drink of it, but by the time of the game the waters have become stagnant in places and it's infested with parasites, which can be seen as the centipedes which infect certain enemies and bosses, which still grants them immortality, but it's an unclean, twisted form of it. And honestly, I feel like the 'time is convoluted' line may have been used initially as a crutch to explain the multiplayer aspects, but they ended up running with it for the future: the image of Lothric near the end of DS3 as the whole city is being dragged down and merged together into a singular point is a strong one.
This is a question that's bothered me for a long time and I think you're the first person to give me a definitive answer, so thank you. The most confusing one for me is Dung Eater and his ability to apparently astral project. Makes me wonder if the spirits we summon are even the same 'people' or just versions of them from alternate realities.
You should look at overlapping universe theory as this is what is happening in the Souls series. The first flame is a universal constant that draws other versions of itself toward it which explains the huge space time flux of the series. This makes the Souls series far more impressive than what people give it credit for since universes tend to be destroyed when this happens.
I really appreciate how in the end u said some things in the trilogy prioritize gameplay mechanics over lore connection. Because I also feel that way, these games' lore is amazing but Fromsoftware also need to make the mechanics taking precedent. Most of japanese developers start the projects with game mechanics in mind first before anything else and I don't think From is any different. Some things may not make sense in lore but it's okay as long as it does not completely destroy the overall lore
I've never been that hyped for a video before--- Thanks for doing this video and explaining in-depth the whole concept of time within Dark Souls. I think this is the first lore video talking about time in the franchise properly, because I always saw this as something that everyone just ignores. So seeing how you explain this isn't just a lazy-writing, and is related to the main themes of the games, it's pretty neat Although I'll personally disagree with the notion that there aren't parallel worlds, knowing how they are literally called as different worlds, and many of the aspects from the games are related to the Yggdrasil in Norse Mythology (such as the Archtrees, and specially, the runes on the titanite slab). I think that the worlds, specially those from other players, are indeed their own thing, but that they might exist in different time axis and ages However, I never saw the existence of these parallel worlds as an issue at all. I think the general concept of a multiverse isn't the issue, but instead, how is applied within the series, and in the Dark Souls' context, I think this makes more interesting its world and the structure of the cosmology Regardless, I enjoyed the video, and I hope you could also make more videos regarding other aspects of the lore that are generally ignored, such as the Everlasting Dragons or how magic, miracles and pyromancies works
Hey - wanted to thank you for the meaningful comment, it means alot. I am so pleased you enjoyed my take, I always felt like this facet of the lore gets and unfair wrap and wanted to move the converstion a little bit. Fair play re the parallel worlds, can defo see the merits to both sides of that. Will defo look at doing more souls lore, especially those deeper cosmological subjects!
The world shifting as the first flame fades can also explain some of the questions about Drangleic, like the well known issue of the Earthen Peak leading to the Iron Keep.
Now thinking about how all the wonderful characters we meet in Lordran are long dead or yet to be born makes the game so more isolated, predestined and uniting. How, for example, Logan traveled into Lordran a whole hundred years, ago, yet we are a part of his story, but still whatever happened, happened long time before us and we had no hand in influencing the future. Truly the world is cursed and cycles will continue to happen, no matter what we do, heroes will continue to appear from other times and spaces, even if we chose not to link the fire. All the more remarkable the story of Slave knight Gael, the only character who was able to go beyond the scope of fire, beyond the reach of Dark, to overcome fate itself.
I think the age of ancients relates to the Daoist concept of Wuji, an undifferentiated state of things where all is unified and inert, before yin and yang separate and begin interacting, giving rise to all natural phenomena.
I'd think you could also interpret the 'our worlds' bit more metaphorically? As in, everything you experience, every action, is 'your world', so 'our worlds' meeting is simply just two people joining forces? But because time is so messy, you and a summon need extra help finding each other.
You know how a big fire struggles violently to stay lit before it goes out, and just before it flickers and dies, the erratically dancing flames cast a lot of shadows? That is how I always imagined the invader cooperator worlds to be described in the lore. So when the first flame was formidable there was only one shadow, one world, one timeline, one reflection of events. However, as the flame faltered, it started to cast more shadows, increasing the chances that someone, somewhere, would rekindle the flame.
Love your videos!!!!! Your opinions on time being convoluted are the same as mine!!! In Darks Souls 3, the spell Repair sums up time the best saying, "...Light is Time..." As the fire fades, so too does light, causing time to act weird.
I don’t know if anyone calls fromsoft lazy for building lore around gameplay mechanics, like you say in the beginning of this video - I think it’s universally considered one of the most creative aspects of the franchise.
I think we need to bring back appreciation for literary commentaries as works in their own right. Commentaries on important works were often held to just as much importance as an original work, and I think that practice is really being revived with channels like this and Lowkey’s actual books. There should be a section in the library for ‘Commentaries on the Works of Hidetaka Miyazaki’, right next to commentaries on Shakespeare!
Damn my man still going at it, been watching you for years and years now, love your vids to this day still. Thank you. Will there be any Ds2 lore? Maybe your take on alken and venn or maybe something else entirely, whatever it may be I'll be here. Much love always.
I can imagine how this time convolution can affect hollowing because of how typical it is to gain purpose just in living a normal life. not only does the trauma and horror of being incapable of dying affect this, but how maddening must it be for time to just not make sense anymore. a normal life is literally impossible because of the damage upon time. It's then the folks who have a single purpose to ground them that can stay sane, with hollowing being just another way to cope with the reality of how this world works now. you either crystalize around your "one thing" or you surrender to the world as it is. It's then remarkable that anyone can rekindle the flame, since the world is built to only reward internal stagnation or crystallization of will, when to rekindle the flame you must push past that sameness and grow nonetheless. These games are a wonderful medium for narrative. i wouldn't call the m a Rorschach test, to minimize the intention found in the story, but just how much of the story is about pushing past a world that all but requires your surrender to the stagnation and doing something new. it's the story that is applicable in whatever time and culture you're in: things suck right now and it's nearly impossible to escape the terminal velocity of it. you must try.
This reminds me of the NuWho concept of a Fixed Point in time. Almost like the fading of the First Flame was one such point and Gwynn fscking with it directly caused all temporal shenanigans.
Maybe the first flame is the center of all these convoluted timelines similar to a heliocentric model of the universe. By having one fire in the center of everything it means everything else is fuel slowly sliding and getting closer to the fire. That would explain the compression of time concepts becoming meaningless without fire granting energy/values to everything. Again that’s why there’s sun worship it’s an easy real world analog following the life giving energy of the sun. Problem is that everything is connected to the fire. Concepts, time, people. So that goes and everything goes because it’s connected.
20:00 - to add to that who’s to say we aren’t living through something of a memory of the bubble and as a result are seeing said events, maybe the people we interact with (npcs) see us differently also.
Most games don't even provide an explanation for multiplayer in game. I feel like dark souls reasoning for it was both lore appropriate and expands our understanding of how the world works
Thinking about this for a day, I just thought of something interesting. The undead Asylum where the game begins is not located in lordran and it is the only place in the game where significant change occurs outside of the players direct or indirect action. After leaving the undead asylum two black knights arrive from lordran, the prisoners leave their cells and arm themselves by the gate and the floor of the entrance hall becomes weaker. And somehow a doll ends up in what was once our cell. Perhaps a significant amount of time has passed between when you first enter lordran and when you return to the asylum. I’ve heard it theorized that the asylum demon is attempting to stop undead from pursuing the prophecy and linking the flame, if so the black knights would have a vested interest in stopping the demons activity’s, explaining their presence, the prisoners outside could be guarding the facility or perhaps they are preparing to enter lordran themselves with a newfound purpose of fulfilling the prophesy now that the way has been cleared. The stray demon is certainly not stopping them, perhaps he has strayed away from his assignment to stop them after the arrival of the black knights and the death of his partner, after all this time the allready crumbling building has weakened to the point that it’s collapsing around him.
love the video. i have rather similar thoughts, but my personal take on how time works in is akin to a river that has some part of it stagnating for some reason, and for our case its gwyn with the flow of time aka the river, the stagnation slowly unravels and with each time stream that gets caught adds some colour to the stagnated portion. for each player that quits, denies the linking and linking of the flame further dyes the water. (in this case denying the linking of the flames turns the water clear) and for every action taken by players paradoxes will cancel themselves and eventually merge forcefully, like summoning tarkus to fight the giant becomes an unknown helper etc, akin to that of the legacy of kain series where time will mend itself regardless of the consequences
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Thank you everyone for checking out my take on Dark Souls.
Let me know your thought below
I didn't even know that sun guy had dialogue, I always just backstabbed him and got his armor
@@skellymen2395 bruh
@@skellymen2395ow…
@@skellymen2395Jaja
@@skellymen2395 My man!
Nothing like a new Smoughtown video to distract us from these convoluted times
hahah thanks Chadahn, hope you enjoy
@@SmoughTownI definitely will, I've been excited for this 😁
*stagnant ;)
@@skhighglitch4217stagnant as fuck, kinda scared if there's a large scale arms battle between more than two countries
@@autruff18so if it’s between two, you’re fine, right?
The explanation about Lordran gave me a "Ahah" moment. That's why people who are Undead go there. They're not going to be affected by time distortion like Sieglinde seems to be in the end. They're bodies "stay the same."
This is the way I understood time to work in Dark Souls. The reason enemies respawn when we rest at a bonfire is because that fire represents a tiny island of stable space-time in a sea of chaotic churning time tides. Rest at a fire, you see reality warp around you because the fire "stabilizes" your existence, for lack of a better term.
I think I read in an interview that monster respawns actually represent different but similar monsters appearing, which is why one of a kind monsters, NPCs, or bosses don't respawn. If that's true then I don't think there's much need to connect this to time destabilization, even though that's a neat idea. I also like the theory that any two bonfires not directly connected might be warping you through time as well as space, eg going from Firelink to Untended Graves.
That's an interesting point. But I think the rebirth specifically is due to the nature of undead in this game as a whole. The dead will rise again. As opposed to beings that do not respawn, none of whom are hollows and thus die once (or at least we don't see them again after death / bonfire reset.
It does not explain other creatures coming back though, like basilisk and other non hollow beings so it could be that your explanation is more reasonable.
there is nothing in lore that explains enemies respawning, even time being convoluted, if the case were to be of the convolution, then bosses would respawn, special enemies, etc
the true reason for this is simple, game balance
if enemies remained dead after resting at a bonfire, then it would be an unbalanced game, its simple as that
@ONobreBabuino why are you so boring
@@afrochikkin am I lying? lol, there is a diffrence between gameplay and lore in dark souls, its a game after all, not everything in there is truly "realistic" as many think
The flow of time itself truly is convoluted. Goddamn daylight savings
I like to think Solaire did canonically link the flame. His image, his legend, is still prominent throughout history, even though his name is not. The Heirs of the Sun covenant in DS2 gives you his sword and a shield depicting his likeness. In DS3, its said his sword even contains the power of lightning, and can draw on faith, despite being a featureless longsword with no lightning damage. However, having the strength of lightning doesnt necessarily mean lightning damage. Instead, raising the sword aloft activates the Oath of Sunlight, blessing you with increased power and defense. Indeed, the ancient, featureless blade does yet contain traces of power. And yet, in Solaire’s lifetime, it never did. He never channeled any power through it. He did that through his talisman. His sword was unimportant, a simple tool, that he took great care of as it was as important as his armor or his talisman. And yet, in 2 we are told that simply holding it causes some warmth within, and by 3 it is called a “relic of one-sided adoration.” A mere longsword, that over time became worshipped as if it were something of legend, the sword of the Knight of Sunlight. It’s even safely tucked away in Lothric Castle, now coveted by a mimic, below their altar to Sunlight.
Now, the real truest explanation first and foremost, is “one-sided adoration” means us, the players, who enjoy seeing icons of the past games. Its fan service first.
Nevertheless, it exists canonically, and has gained power from worship by Lothric’s very own Sunlight Knights, the Lothric Knights protect and worship an old altar of Sunlight, carry the medals, and their crossbows and greatswords are infused with lightning. There are priests who cast Sacred Oath to aid them. These people were obsessed with the linking of the flame as well, before Lothric refused to do it. Obsessed with Sunlight, worshippers of the flame, coveters of a sacred sword.
Maybe its just me, but this seems intentional.
I like to think that he somehow became the sun when he linked the flame.
I'm not sure how he'd do that, but I know that he would be happy if he did.
@@scienceme9794 I think “the sun” in terms of Solaire’s quest is a metaphor for purpose, a drive. Something to stave off hollowing and something worth living and fighting for.
Solaire sought “his own sun” and as such became an undead, journeying to Lordran to find said “sun.” What he finds there, is fellow undead, searching for their own “suns.” For many, their purpose was to become legend. Be it linking the fire, harnessing ancient lost magics, or even just becoming powerful by stealing the souls of lords.
For Solaire, what exactly “his own sun” means is unclear. I wants to be “grossly incandescent,” enjoys “jolly cooperation,” and has trained rigorously on simple tools he painted holy symbols on himself.
He needed no sacred sword, or blessed impenetrable golden armor. He’s not a high-ranking paladin like Leeroy, or a warrior cleric like Vince and Nico.
He’s an ordinary man.
So what exactly does he want? What is this “sun” he seeks?
Patches calls him a “complete idiot.” To just “nod along and keep him on your side.” And yet, our very first encounter with him says otherwise. He’s no genius, but he clearly pays close attention and understands that which he cares for more than anyone. His prowess in battle compares to that of even mighty Ornstein and Smough, and even Gwyn himself, hollow as he is. But combat isn’t all he’s cared to research. His very first branch of dialogue reveals he knows a lot more about what is happening to Lordran, and as such the subsequent lands of fading flame, than anyone else we encounter. “The way I see it, our fates appear to be intertwined. In a land brimming with hollows, could that really be mere chance? So, what do you say? Why not help one another on this lonely journey?”
He believes that in such a desolate place drawing in countless undead in search of hope, that your meeting is not just coinciding journeys. I of course refer now to his infamous line many often write off as lazy cop out for game mechanics.
"We are amidst strange beings, in a strange land. The flow of time itself is convoluted; with heroes centuries old phasing in and out. The very fabric wavers, and relations shift and obscure. There's no telling how much longer your world and mine will remain in contact.”
This video already covers this.
So my point is, he’s not dumb. He knows what he’s doing and where he is and what’s happening better than anyone. And yet, he simply cannot find his “sun.”
Maybe he doesnt even know what it is. Maybe, like seemingly many other knights before him, based on their drops, he thought that the sunlight maggot was the key. After all, it resembles the crown of Gwyn’s son and shines brilliantly. But maybe he only believed such out of desperation. He doesn’t think he’s close when he sits in the cave before Izalith. He’s depressed, losing faith.
Like any man, when his faith is tested, it can wear thin.
He desperately searches for hope, something, anything. But before he makes a fatal mistake, you squash a bug. He’s left alive longer to ponder.
And yet, he doesnt go hollow. Anyone else wouldve hollowed by this point.
He was losing faith in his drive, he was in the deepest and darkest pit in all of Lordran, and his last ditch desperate attempt fails.
So, why do we find another summon sign, in the Kiln?
Solaire pressed on anyway. Frampt had to have brought him there and he had to have presented the lord souls to the Lordvessel.
What kept him going?
Well, his Sun.
You.
He isn’t rude or demeaning when you decline his offers:
“Well, yes, quite understandable. Not to worry. Not to worry. I do not wish to impose. I was in the wrong. We'll laugh it off, shall we? Hah hah hah!”
He enjoys your company:
“You've left me with quite an impression. I would relish a chance to assist you.”
And he even lets slip a little more than he intends to:
“You really are fond of chatting with me, aren't you? If I didn't know better, I'd think you had feelings for me! Oh, no, dear me. Pretend you didn't hear that! Hah hah hah!”
So, exactly what he feels towards you is unclear, but he deeply cares for you. He will do anything he can to aid you, and cheerily laughs off being declined. He never pushes, and asks nothing in return.
He’s also used to being seen as weird or off putting:
“Do you find that strange? Well, you should! No need to hide your reaction. I get that look all the time! Hah hah hah!”
Though he admits to you that deep down he’s afraid of being remembered only as a weirdo with a strange, obscure goal:
“But I cannot give up. I became Undead to pursue this! But when I peer at the Sun up above, it occurs to me... What if I am seen as a laughing stock, as a blind fool without reason? Well, I suppose they wouldn't be far off! Hah hah hah!”
He admits things to you you don’t tell to strangers.
So, even deep in the depths of the world, and even in the Kiln beyond time, he pushes forward. He has to.
Because, and though he may not realize it, he found his own Sun, and he has to protect it.
He didn’t find a literal radiant orb of plasma, some ancient power of the gods, nothing like that.
He found a real, genuine, friend.
Because the real Sun, was the friends we made along the way.
Solaire. Siegmeyer. Andre. The Giant Smith. Laurentius. Griggs. Logan. Dusk. Reah. Quelana. Gough.
Our teachers, guides, allies, and most importantly, friends.
Because the truest purpose in life, is being the Sun for those around you. A radiant beacon of light, warm, friendly, fun, a guide to follow to safety, someone trustworthy and reliable.
You are the Sun.
but there cant be two lords of cinder at the same age, and besides, if solaire DID link the fire, we wouls get his charred equipment in 2 and 3, and besides, the thing regarding his sword is his obsession regarding the sun making his blade have sunlight powers, like how lucatiels fear of hollowing made her sword deal more dmg to hollows
Even better, it was confirmed in an interview that Solaire does. ☀️\[T]/☀️
@@Ahrpigi did you read by chance lokey's doc Smoughtown left below AND the interview? Miyazaki clearly says the ending he PREFERS, not the CANONICAL ONE, there is a clear distinction in the interview that what miyazaki said was his opinion alone. Here is his quote: "I THINK that the happiest ending for him is to die by becoming the sun!"
its clear here that its not confirmed, just miyazakis opinion, if my opinion is canon in dark souls, for example, "i think that the happiest ending for gwyndolin is him dying", thats my opinion, BUT, is this opinion canon?
No, of course not, Gwyndolin is alive in Ds3, AND, solaires equipment can be found in Ds2 AND 3 (NOT CHARRED), so, he died by our hands canonically, WE become the lord of cinder, there CANNOT be two lords at the same time
I often think about how bosses or some characters permanently stay dead. If time is stagnant, it makes sense to me that killing something of immense power disrupts the stagnancy, much like a large splash, that resumes time flow but just for a moment.
I was thinking, didn't Tarkus slay the Iron Golem?
How did it come back?
This is probably the explanation for it, lol. Your world and Tarkus's world are separated.
@@incrediblybored4787I’m pretty sure there are a lot of iron golems, as Sen’s fortress is a test to seek out chosen undead. However, the flow of time is muddied, so I wouldn’t be surprised if the explanation is that face value
But why does a powerfull individual have gravity vs a flower dying. Both born of the flame both die the same
@@rohanking12ablesouls contain great power born of the first flame itself.
@@rohanking12able This is not how Dark Souls works, life in Dark Souls is expressly not equal.
I want to push back a little on the idea that "stagnated" is a better word choice than "convoluted" to describe what's going on with time in Lordran.
I think the issue is that in modern common use, "convoluted" is used pretty much exclusively to mean "needlessly complex and difficult to follow", usually in the context of the plot of a story and always in a dismissive way. But that's not literally what the word means. Convolution describes something physical, which is wound in on itelf in complex patterns. In a medical context, the complicated pattern of "wrinkles" of the brain are referred to as convolutions, and it's not uncommon to use the word to describe the winding looping path of the intestines as well.
So now let's return to Lordran and the river and whirlpool analogy. If there were a river, and the flow of water were interrupted by a whirlpool which violently sucks water down into itself, only for that water to flow through many complex underground tunnels back up into the swirling vortex, with the maelstrom becoming ever more chaotic as it sucks the water down quicker to keep up with the constant addition of water from upstream, I personally would not use the word stagnant to describe that situation - even though the end result is that the water is trapped and unable to continue downstream.
Stagnancy, in english at least, implies stillness, and it is clear that time is not still in Lordran - even if it is unable to continue down its natural path, it still swirls and moves in complex, winding, mazelike patterns as it circles the metaphorical drain. If it were truly still, worlds would not be able to move in and out of alignment, as Solaire describes. As a result of all this, I think "convoluted" more fully captures the state of time than "stagnant" does. Or perhaps it's more accurate to say that both words convey different things about what's going on with time in Lordran, but in the context of what Solaire is talking about in that quote - the unpredictable overlapping and un-overlapping of worlds - "convoluted" is the more appropriate choice.
Well said and I think you're right!
Wonderful analogy - leads me to the conclusion that in the events up to the DLC of DS3 time is indeed convoluted, however this convolution towards the end of the dark souls story lends itself more to stagnancy as the worlds and times collide around a central point in an indistinguishable and entropic state.
Yes, the word convolution is clearly linguistically related to revolution. Both have meanings related to twisting, turning, rolling, coiling. Great insight.
The conversation with Solaire was the moment I was cemented firmly into my love for Souls. Something about the way time is shifting and convoluted terrified me and also intrigued me to no end. To this day this game has impacted my life more than any other.
The bit about time stagnating and DS2's dark sign being a spiral reminded me of a passage from Berserk.
"Many people appear to repeat the same mistakes, but Karma is by no means a circle. Indeed, it is a spiral. Those children are not bound to choose the same fates you and I once did."
- Flora
[Causality intensifies]
Dark souls 2 was always supposed to be seen as the mirror to Dark souls 1. The other side of the coin. When he says north and south pole, he doesn't literally mean they take place on different sides of the world. Think about poles, polar opposites, duality. Without dark, light cannot exist, because both exist in definition to eachother. Ie. They exist to define the other's existence. Up and down, left and right, hot and cold. Without one, the other ceases to exist.
How is it the mirror to DS1 anyway?
@@xx_amongus_xx6987 it displays the polar opposite of a good game 😂
@@RobotPrnEnthusiasts LOL
You really sequenced and streamlined this video well, nice transitions into different areas/topics. Yet another banger chief keep it up
Cheers dude - really appreciate that, wanted to get it right!
THANK YOU. I’m tired of people writing off the time thing as “lazy” when it’s quite central to a lot of the themes of cyclical time, ages, striving and futility. It’s not just an explanation for multiplayer, it’s a key part of how this world works and what it all means.
Thanks bud, I agree completely
Or it can be an ass pull writing tool to justify anything you didn't care to think about. Gwyn is back from the dead and has his soul back to bumfuck his entire family in an amazing incestual orgy (they have also returned from the past to relive the joy of smoking pot). Allthewhile he is working on his army of halfbreed children by commiting mass beastiality with the ancient dragons who were actually a part of this all along and conjures up an entire new race of baby bum dragons. During all this seath is revived by the first flame as a hot af anime lord of cinder version and gives him a rimjob while he is at it, to usher in the age of ass. Then all of the sudden spiderpatches utilizes interdimensional time travel to return to the Dark Souls franchise, live in his ear and conjures up a new religion of godly ear wax worship.
I think what happened with Heide is it's in a completely different place from Anor Londo. Gwynevere left Anor Londo for the Flame God Flann. As there are Heide Knights, it implies that Heide is the now submerged city that the Tower Of Flame resides in. It's also implied that Ornstein and Smough were illusions in the first game, so the "Old Dragonslayer" is Ornstein, who is guarding the Tower Of Flame. Those falcon statues seem to be Flann himself in my opinion. Gwynevere married Flann, so it's also possible that their offspring was named Heide, and that the falcon statues are Heide. But I think the first possibility is more likely.
Also, Dark Souls 2 introduces a lot of other gods. Anor Londo is the city of gods, so it's clear that gods are a race of beings, not titles granted.
Nobody dotes on these games for the “time is convoluted” line explaining this. I have seen nothing but praise.
When Solaire said time is convoluted in Lordran back when I first met him, I didn't think much of it. Time being broken in some fashion just made sense to me and explained why personal timelines intersected while not being fully synchronized. DS3 just made it a lot more apparent that time, not just space, was on the verge of completely breaking apart because the Age of Fire hadn't been allowed to end like it was supposed to. That's how I've ended up viewing all of it anyway.
I want to know what caused the first flame to erupt into existence deep within that archtree's roots, and i wonder if the site of the kiln of the first flame used to be an archtree now burned to be nothing more than the ash caking the region meaning the age of fire was ending because its original fuel, the archtree, had been nearly spent
Yeh massive questions that really feel beyond human comprehension
The fighting of the dragons and the finding of the souls that we are told in Dark Souls 1 is not a first hand account, it is what people in the universe are told. I feel that this is the case due to the narrator for both the legend and the Undead leaving the asylum being the same.
Considering how Gwyn treated the humans of the Ringed City, not giving them any credit for fighting dragons, I wonder just how much of the tale of the First Flame is falsehoods and just what exactly happened.
For example there is a very blatant contradiction in the existence of Nito "first of the dead", if he were truly the first to die then why and how does his body contain multiple individual's worth of bones?
@@ValsorayuI don't think that Nito is supposed to be "First Dead Guy" but rather that "Among all the Dead Guys, this guy here, he comes in First. He's the best of the Dead Guys."
My guess is lightning. In real life a lightning strike can cause the interior hollow of a tree to catch on fire. In terms of symbolism things like rain, comets, and lightning represent the will or action of the divine.
In Tarot, The Tower Card is a tower getting struck by lightning which symbolizes a sudden change or end to the current status or stability.
Trees and tower are corresponding symbols, so a tree being struck by lightning is, the same as a tower getting struck. To top it off, the game connects the Stone Dragons to the Stone Archtrees, marking the Dragons as part of this symbolism, and they are killed by lightning. This brings an end to one age and starts another one. And where is Gwyn's glorious city, on top of a tree aka a tower.
Just my opinion.
Maybe the Greater Will sent the Fire Flame 😂😂😂
I’m very happy to see you go back and cover Dark Souls lore. I remember finding you back during the Sekiro days and I’m glad to see you’ve kept it up all this time. You make some of the most quality Fromsoft lore videos in the community. Can’t wait to dive into this one
Hey Diavolo - that really means alot to me! Thank you for supporting me all these years, more content to come!
Looking forward digging into the video after supper tonight! Cant go wrong with some good old Dark Souls lore!
Thanks for being here as always Ross!
@SmoughTown In this household we never miss a SmoughTown upload!
@@RossAshmore means the world to me
I love Heide’s tower of flame!
Biggest fan of the place right here
I liked this place from the original Dark Souls 2, but I wasn't a fan of the changes SOTFS made.
I really appreciate seeing a lore vid of yours with much care as the other ones you do.
Despide many consider Dark Souls lore videos unnecessary by now, I believe it's worth looking into it now that there is much more awareness of the japanese translation issues.
In particular, there's lots of older DkS lore videos that are now obsolete, since we didnt have the means to analyze them in the correct way back in the days where we couldnt extrapolate texts from the JP vers or look into all the cut content, these new takes on Dark Souls lore are more precious now than ever!
Also with having played and analized both Bloodborne, Sekiro, and Elden Ring we now have a more clear grasp of fromsoft and Miyazaki's philosophies to read the game's story with the right key!
Take for example the stagnation, it is basically present in all FS games, especially in Sekiro where NPCs explicitly talk about the danger of stagnation and immortality.
I believe I'm not the only one who wishes for more content of yours dealing with older games like DkS or Demons Souls... personally I would like to see a complete looooong lore video of Sekiro with the same care you put into your recent vids! Love your content
Thanks my friend, I am honestly so stoked that people are still interested in these games and my coverage of it. When I started doing these videos years ago my understanding of the lore was very different.
As a result I have much more to say about them now and will continue to cover the other games, as long as people are keen!
Ech, I'm hesitant to call older videos 'obsolete'. The whole thesis of these games is to build a greater sense of narrative through personal contexts and discussion. Insistence on any one absolutely true canon runs contrary to the narrative mode that the games are engaging in.
@@SmoughTown Yesss! Thank you :3
@@varsoonhks3211 I can agree with your idea that SmoughTown's old videos aren't obsolete. They can just be seen as an initial, less complete or less true analysis of the lore. Not useless, just not quite ideal to form a perfect explanation.
Also, saying they are obsolete would mean they have no use, which, by their very nature of being entertaining as well as informational, is impossible as long as there are fans of FromSoft games or at the very least, those who enjoy anything these videos can give, even if it's a good laugh at our nerdiness. Lol!
I also agree that the idea of us dissecting the game, discussing clues and theorizing on the lore is one of the main reasons it's not just spoon fed to us. What fun would that be? Besides, every bit of info given makes no difference anyway and we still question what and why and try to find meaning in what's not provided and we just end up making theories on context clues, plot holes and logical deduction of our observations of that which isn't said anyway. Why not just make it vague to begin with, make some popcorn and enjoy watching the theories fly?
I will though, disagree that there isn't a true canon. There is, it's just that we as fans don't know it. At the least Miyazaki knows it. It's his story after all. I would suppose that his team also knows it, at least if not in it's entirety, much more than we know it now.
I'm sure they wouldn't be able to so tightly weave the story in with the world building if they didn't at least have a pretty solid idea of the lore, though I don't think they would have to have a perfect understanding or the full story and all it's juicy details, they could suffice on a decent understanding of at least the relevant parts needed for their task and rely on the big M's guidance from there, to fill in the gaps.
At any rate, I'm sure we can all agree that we are very thankful for Miyazaki, FromSoft and all the Lore, Build Guide, Story, PVP and Let's Play channels that have sprung up from this wonderful company and it's amazing game worlds filled to the brim with juicy, tantalizing lore.
Especially SmoughTown. Thanks, mate! I can't wait to see what you come up with next.
Miyzaki clearly enjoys certain concepts - with them being present throughout his games.
Faram Azula (or at least provably Placidusax's arena) is "beyond time" and is heavily tied with dragons formed of stone. Those Everlasting Dragons from Dark Souls are stoney too and are very much associated with being beyond the ravages of time...makes me think that the White Sign Soapstone could come from them!
Loving this video. Always wondered if time works as intended or if it’s basically at a stand still
Thanks Ricky, really pleased you enjoyed
Hawkshaw is where i first heard about the time convoluted being mainly a multiplayer mechanic during their timeline video. I definitely agree that time is convoluted, but always felt like it was more a force in the background. Like for example the Black knights around the world are clearly of the present and not a product of overlapping time, but when you rest or die the world resets kind of like time rolls back or the enemies drift in from another time.
Hawkshaw is a hack incapable of thinking. Please stop watching his videos. He’s not fit to lick smough’s boots. He said solaire is Miyazaki. If that isn’t proof, I don’t know what is.
Regarding Drangleic's location. I always thought that Lordran and the Kiln are indeed in two different locations in the world. Below Firelink Shrine is the portal (represented by the white void while going down the stairs) that connects the two locations. So the North/South pole quote from the dev is still valid.
Your comparison to things being a bubble of time and then a black hole also being mentioned has set my physics/space obsessed brain on a WILD bender of gravity, spacetime, and souls lore. What an incredible video
You know, it almost seems to me like the further you go in the timeline, the more insulated the Kiln and the lands pulled into its orbit become from the rest of the world. Like, in DS1, you can just get a crow to fly you into Lordran, in DS2 you have to go through a rift in spacetime, and in DS3, you’re just already there. It seems to me that as the Age of Fire keeps getting stretched onward and more lands are pulled into the affected “bubble”, it becomes harder and harder for new people to get in. Maybe that’s the real reason why in DS3, it becomes necessary to resort to recycling old Lords of Cinder and Unkindled Ash. It’s not just that there are no more Undead willing to throw themselves on the Fire- it may be that any who might be willing to do it can’t get in because of how the Kiln has become so isolated in spacetime.
It’s almost like a kind of natural defense against those who would force the stagnation to continue. The more the Fire is rekindled, the more sealed off it becomes from anyone else who would try. Just another thing to drive home that no matter how hard people may fight against it, nature will eventually take its course.
I think it's not as strong thematically not to mention needlessly convoluted.
Makes a lot of sense
Your videos are so relaxing and informative, I don't think I'd love souls lore as much as I do without your input.
Means the world to me, thank you so much and I am overjoyed you can find enjoyment in my content
This is the explanation I’ve been looking for all this time. I was one who downright hated the “time is convoluted” line. Now it makes so much more sense to me, so thank you once again for an incredible analysis on one of my favorite art pieces of all time!
Looking back at the line, once you know he really means "stagnant", it fits in with the theme used theought the series perfectly.
But when he says "convoluted", it always came across dismissive. Like he was saying, "Whats up with time?...Lordran is crazy yo...Hey! Did I tell you I paint my own gear?! I could paint yours and we could be jolly good Sunbros!"
I haven't watched the video yet, but one example I remembered when it came to time is convoluted involved Big Hat Logan and the magic blacksmith. With the way the blacksmith was talking about Logan you'd think he appeared in Lordran centuries ago but if talk to Big Hat Logan and his apprentice (or whoever that was) it seems like they just recently got there.
I don't agree with the Heide thing,
I've always thought Heide was founded by Gwynevere and Flame God Flann after they left Anor Londo; with the Tower Of Flame having something to do with Flann. Heide's resemblance of Anor Londo might come from Gwynevere copying some designs from her home. Even placing a knight resembling Ornstein, and founding a covenant mirroring Blades Of The Darkmoon.
But your theory is just as good as mine, DS2 doesn't elaborate on it much more hah
Hi! great video, I would also highlight that the Dark Souls and Elden Ring series holds a pretty dreamy reality. Slumbering is a big thing in this games and we all know that time inside dreams is a bit special
Always a good time when you are listening to a new SmoughTown video! I always look forward to your videos!
That means the world Alex! Hope you enjoy this one
lore explanation for a gameplay hook is the best kind of lore
Kinda crazy how much more the game makes sense when you change it from convoluted to stagnant. Loved this video.
I think something is worth mentioning. You said, that in a bubble where time is not linear, certain events remain same and every timeline is heading towards the same end. I think in DS3, the travelling lands don’t only imply that every part of the world is now in this bubble, but also that the world itself is moving all the different timeline to a final end (Dreg Heap and finally Gael’s ash arena). The spacetime of all DS universe is merging together to share the last mutual timeline - burning of the whole world.
I hate that I ever fell off of these videos, but I'm glad that I can listen to you dig into these games anytime anywhere
Honestly "covoluted" makes more intuitive sense than "stagnant" at least in a non Japanese context. Most would assume "stagnant" implies a slowing or stillness of time. It only starts to reflect the state of things in Dark Souls once you apply that "river of time" and "pooling" analogy that's more culture-specific. I can see why the translation changed things.
Good point mate
I agree with the analysis within this vid, and this is one of my fav Souls topics as well. Especially love characters like Big Hat and Tarkus 'intersecting' with our worlds and times.
I’ve always been curious about this topic, and it’s fascinated me immensely. I think it’s safe to say that I will be putting the Abyssal Archive at the TOP of my Christmas Wishlist this year.
That's so awesome to hear! It's an incredible read
I think I roughly pieced some of this together myself while playing and watching lore videos. I was able to string together that there was no time in the real sense in the Age of Ancients, and I figured that since the First Flame represents change and disparity, and that time started moving once it came about, it must be tied to time as well. So I figured time was breaking down as the Flame fades, allowing all kinds of wonkyness. Never picked up on it being limited to Lordran only though.
The fact that time is related to first flame kinda makes me question this theory, there is a bit of contradiction, a lot points to problems happening because age of fire being kept going far too long and that is source of stagnation, but age of fire IS tied to flow of time, which means that without fire wont flow normally which means we will have stagnation.
How age of fire can be both orgin of flowing time and at the same time orgin of its stagnation, only explanation that would make sense is that its the end of age of fire that is source of stagnation but this theory and a lot of hints in game points in completly oposite direction saying that continuation of age of fire, which means flowing time is source of problems not its solution, this makes no sense to me.
@@Culaio I think maybe it's like a stagnation of a cycle rather than just stagnation. I don't know if it all makes sense, but regarding what you are saying, this is what I'm thinking. The age of dragons is a kind of cold and timeless period, it can be considered 'natural'. Fire shows up, and whether it is 'natural' or not in the same way, it seems that it's naturally not supposed to exist forever. The age of fire is supposed to show up, end, and the cold age will begin again, and the age of fire or maybe a new age will begin only to eventually end. This is probably the cycle of the world, but the overall cycle is being stagnated due to Gwyn's actions.
I guess in a weird way, the cold age of dragons is not exactly stagnation, unless maybe there was a way for a dragon to pause the cycle like Gwyn does. And maybe rather than being a timeless age, maybe time flows, just vastly differently in comparison to time during an age of flames. But this last bit could maybe be wrong, the intro of DS1 might even say that the age of dragons is a timeless age, but I don't know for sure.
Excellent video. The nature of time in Dark Souls reminds me of Dragon Breaks from the elder scrolls series. You have multiple people experiencing the same time period, but with radically different events occurring from their points of view. After the bubble/dragon break resolves, we get a set of fixed outcomes, but the events that caused those outcomes are unclear, overlapping and subjective, with different contradicting events somehow all occuring. One of my favorite parts of both games lore!
The concept of bubbles reminds me of Dragon Breaks in elder scrolls. It also covers why and how there are multiple contradictory histories
YES! Thank you so much for bringing this concept to the english-speaking community. A very prominent italian souls content creator, Sabaku, introduced us to the concept a couple of years ago, but has since stopped working on his lore explanation video series. Great to see someone finally analysing the original text and the cultural influences
Loved this! New Dark Souls content to ponder is much appreciated! Thanks Smough
Yes! Just wrapping up cleaning my room and this pops up. Ty Smoughtown
my pleasure my friend, enjoy it.
Beautiful work as always.
Up till now I was under the impression that time convulsion was mostly a game mechanic that was hewn into the lore. I am now thinking it might be the reverse, or that the mechanic from demon souls inspired them to elaborate more on time and that was the reason DS1 looks as it is, a mess of time and space.
Really great video to watch. You are one of the corner stones of the From Soft lore as far as I'm concerned.
Much appreciated my friend - means the world to me
Thank you for plugging lokeys lore physical copy I knew someone would be a big enough of a masocist to put all this lore into a book form! I am going to order every book to put into my library.
I have never played any of these games. And I don’t really plan on it. But you explain the concepts so clearly that I keep watching more of your videos and understand each concept you bring up. Thank you for being so careful in your wording and dedicated to making these fantastic explanation and discussion video essays.
Thank you Daniel, it's honestly so great to hear that because it took time for me to getting the writing to a point I was happy.
Really appreciate it and thanks for the support
Honestly ur missing out dark souls is one of the greatest game series ever released
Play Dark Souls now!!!!
And if you are a cry baby play Elden Ring first because it's the easiest in that genre of game.
@@iroquoiskaram8639 Unfortunately some of us don't have the relevant consoles, and the PC experience seriously sucks. They are not good PC ports. It takes a lot of tinkering and patching to get them to be enjoyable at all imo.
@@delphicdescant Um no? Dark Souls 1 is the only janky game but DS 2 and 3 work perfectly from the get-go.
Also Elden Ring is very well optimized and even on the minimum requirements you'll be able to enjoy high preset and 60 fps at 1080p.
There is also Sekiro, extremely well polished and a great experience from start to finish.
just started my first dark Souls play through. getting fd up for 20 min a day in between work and a newborn has been a great experience
Loved this one, Geoff! Always glad to receive a notification from your channel
Thanks my friend! Appreciate you being here!
Ah, I can't explain how happy a notifications for your vids makes me. I usually first see the discord server notification and I just know my day will be good😊
As per usual your voice and work is my favourite company on the 2 hour commute to and back fro the university.
Cheers Smough, may warm sunlight always guide your way.
Light is time, and the reversal of its effects is a forbidden art.
I have always liked this part of the repair sorcery in ds1
I have to tell you something stonkingly relevant. In Irish mythology, time is convoluted/stagnant/unmoving/ineffable. Although there are multiple examples there is a famous one that is actually annotated and explained. A hero comes across Saint Patrick's grave and speaks with his ghost but it is one thousand years before Patrick is even born. This kind of thing is a clear influence in my opinion.
Not quite related to this argument but dark souls ii related, the irish pantheon of gods would usually send a fly or beetle to drop itself into a woman's wine as a form of immaculate conception to create a demigod child. Chaos bugs nah? ❤
Excellent video as always
I always thought the "the flow of time is convoluted" line could have some deeper meaning, but I could never pin it down myself. I like this interpretation!
Love this vid. Had similar thoughts to how time works in these games. Definitely gonna have to pick up abyssal archives!
It's a great read! and really pleased you enjoyed the video
I think I got way too into the series many years ago, because a lot of the stuff you said, primarily the Bubble section, is exactly what I thought of for how time worked in the series. To hear some of my past ideas get reinforced by such respected members of the souls community to such a near exact degree is kinda crazy. Won't lie, got a little more excited than I should have. XD
I have also learned a ton in this as well, especially in respects to the ideas of "space" in the series. Also Solair being the worm, granted I may have heard it before and just forgot.
This was a fantastic video and I hope you tackle the Souls trilogy again in the future!
Man I just love this kind of shit, I've seen 1 or 2 of your videos pre elden ring and then dove in heavy when that came out. I really have such a love and passion for the lore and philosophy of these games, and your videos really tickle my adhd g spot. Never stop
This helps me appreciate the souls story more. Thank you, I love this story even more.
I'm so glad! Thank you so much for watching the video
Its insane that Dark souls lore is kinda like university academia, peer reviewing essays and citing references and all that. Fromsoft lore is now basically a school subject. Even miyazaki could not have predicted this.
The swirling effect/black hole reference, and explaining the convolution and stretching of the land and time surrounding the first flame really got me. Excellent video. You and a few others have absolutely made these games come to life far more than they ever would’ve otherwise for a lot of us. Thanks, and Keep it up.
You just made my day so much better.
Praise the sun(day)
Praise the sun indeed my friend, enjoy!
Finally, I am more shock NO ONE TALKS ABOUT THIS FOR YEARS!
You know, I hadn't realised how much I like your speaking voice until now. Your articulation is really pleasing from a purely auditory perspective. Also nice to see you do more DS1 stuff!
Also i randomly stumbled on Lokey when I was considering the lore of Brightstone Cove Tseldora in DS2. Their article was one of the few relevant results I found when searching for some fairly obscure stuff. And the ending of this did such fine work in explaining a subject that is often complicated to understand. I wonder how much time has passed in stagnant places, but it really doesn't matter as time means little when you're in a time eddy
I scratched my head about "gwyn *always* linked the fire/there must be just this one universe" (starting at 21:20). This follows the anthropic principle, meaning that we only can observe the realities/parallel universes which followed that exact path, because the player lives in that reality. Still, in theory, other universes, e.g. where gwyn never lit the first flame, *could* exist. However, we'd never be able to observe them, because we're not living in one of those realities and hence are "locked out" of that ending/timeline.
Sooo tl;dr: we gotta assume that there are other universes, but we can simply not observe them because we're not in it.
Well, it's possible there are other universes, just like how that may be the case in real life, but we'll never get a solid answer or proof for real life or DS. And as far as we are concerned, these alternate universes don't exactly matter to us because whether they do or don't exist universally, they don't exist for us.
Love to see Smough going back to DS Lore to supplement the newer lore content from ER and Bloodborne! Great, now I might have to drop everything and play Dark Souls. Praise the Sun(day), my friends \[T]/
Cheers bud, yeh it's been great revisiting the older games!
@@SmoughTown
It's always a treat to watch your lore vids! I watch then during long cardio sessions and they make time fly because they're so engrossing. Much love, Smough :)
@@punishedvenomsnake716 That's awesome dude! Hope you smash it at your next session
Time fades alongside the first flame, time becomes convoluted and doesnt progress beyond the moment the flame would die until the flame recieves kindling from many npcs and players growing in strength and resuming the flow of time. The times where it was kindled and we as players were not involved were times in which it was kindled long before it faded to the extent it did in dark souls 1 or 3
Would love to see more Dark Souls lore(specifically DS1) cuz your DS3 vids were awesome. Love this. Thanks.
"Time is Convoluted" is the reason Dark Souls and its lore are so amazing. For something that appears to be a run-of-the-mill dark fantasy game to tackle themes of space and time, but rarely outwardly state them, is unlike anything else.
Whoa… the idea that the Carthus Sandworm could be Solaire after thousands of years with the parasite blew my mind! It makes sense since his last location is demon ruins/lost izalith.
I've always thought about this in cycles. Everything in Dark Souls feeds into it, even the NG+ mechanic. Given enough time, everything that has happened will happen again. Time being convoluted, to me simply means that we get to interact with other cycles, including the heroes and villains of those cycles. What happens, has always happened, and will happen again, eventhough, perhaps slightly different each time. It's a deep time explanation, not a parallel worlds theory.
I like your theory. That would explain how in one cycle we link the flame but in another cycle we become a Dark Lord and it's also explained how Solaire links the flame in his world. Meaning he's simply coming to help you from another cycle and when he returns to his cycle he links the flame.
I always considered Lordran (and more recently, the Lands Between) to be a Purgatory realm. A metaphysical half-corporeal land where the rules can bend and shift. I think a lot of Dark Souls (certainly the first) is intended be interpative and open-ended.
I have so been looking forward to this!
Thank you so much! Enjoy it
The whole 'flowing water v stagnant water' is a strong theme in Sekiro too: the waters of the Fountainhead Palace can offer immortality to those who drink of it, but by the time of the game the waters have become stagnant in places and it's infested with parasites, which can be seen as the centipedes which infect certain enemies and bosses, which still grants them immortality, but it's an unclean, twisted form of it.
And honestly, I feel like the 'time is convoluted' line may have been used initially as a crutch to explain the multiplayer aspects, but they ended up running with it for the future: the image of Lothric near the end of DS3 as the whole city is being dragged down and merged together into a singular point is a strong one.
This is a question that's bothered me for a long time and I think you're the first person to give me a definitive answer, so thank you.
The most confusing one for me is Dung Eater and his ability to apparently astral project. Makes me wonder if the spirits we summon are even the same 'people' or just versions of them from alternate realities.
You should look at overlapping universe theory as this is what is happening in the Souls series. The first flame is a universal constant that draws other versions of itself toward it which explains the huge space time flux of the series. This makes the Souls series far more impressive than what people give it credit for since universes tend to be destroyed when this happens.
I really appreciate how in the end u said some things in the trilogy prioritize gameplay mechanics over lore connection. Because I also feel that way, these games' lore is amazing but Fromsoftware also need to make the mechanics taking precedent. Most of japanese developers start the projects with game mechanics in mind first before anything else and I don't think From is any different. Some things may not make sense in lore but it's okay as long as it does not completely destroy the overall lore
I've never been that hyped for a video before---
Thanks for doing this video and explaining in-depth the whole concept of time within Dark Souls. I think this is the first lore video talking about time in the franchise properly, because I always saw this as something that everyone just ignores. So seeing how you explain this isn't just a lazy-writing, and is related to the main themes of the games, it's pretty neat
Although I'll personally disagree with the notion that there aren't parallel worlds, knowing how they are literally called as different worlds, and many of the aspects from the games are related to the Yggdrasil in Norse Mythology (such as the Archtrees, and specially, the runes on the titanite slab). I think that the worlds, specially those from other players, are indeed their own thing, but that they might exist in different time axis and ages
However, I never saw the existence of these parallel worlds as an issue at all. I think the general concept of a multiverse isn't the issue, but instead, how is applied within the series, and in the Dark Souls' context, I think this makes more interesting its world and the structure of the cosmology
Regardless, I enjoyed the video, and I hope you could also make more videos regarding other aspects of the lore that are generally ignored, such as the Everlasting Dragons or how magic, miracles and pyromancies works
Hey - wanted to thank you for the meaningful comment, it means alot.
I am so pleased you enjoyed my take, I always felt like this facet of the lore gets and unfair wrap and wanted to move the converstion a little bit.
Fair play re the parallel worlds, can defo see the merits to both sides of that. Will defo look at doing more souls lore, especially those deeper cosmological subjects!
The world shifting as the first flame fades can also explain some of the questions about Drangleic, like the well known issue of the Earthen Peak leading to the Iron Keep.
Now thinking about how all the wonderful characters we meet in Lordran are long dead or yet to be born makes the game so more isolated, predestined and uniting. How, for example, Logan traveled into Lordran a whole hundred years, ago, yet we are a part of his story, but still whatever happened, happened long time before us and we had no hand in influencing the future. Truly the world is cursed and cycles will continue to happen, no matter what we do, heroes will continue to appear from other times and spaces, even if we chose not to link the fire.
All the more remarkable the story of Slave knight Gael, the only character who was able to go beyond the scope of fire, beyond the reach of Dark, to overcome fate itself.
I think the age of ancients relates to the Daoist concept of Wuji, an undifferentiated state of things where all is unified and inert, before yin and yang separate and begin interacting, giving rise to all natural phenomena.
I'd think you could also interpret the 'our worlds' bit more metaphorically? As in, everything you experience, every action, is 'your world', so 'our worlds' meeting is simply just two people joining forces? But because time is so messy, you and a summon need extra help finding each other.
You know how a big fire struggles violently to stay lit before it goes out, and just before it flickers and dies, the erratically dancing flames cast a lot of shadows? That is how I always imagined the invader cooperator worlds to be described in the lore. So when the first flame was formidable there was only one shadow, one world, one timeline, one reflection of events. However, as the flame faltered, it started to cast more shadows, increasing the chances that someone, somewhere, would rekindle the flame.
Love your videos!!!!! Your opinions on time being convoluted are the same as mine!!! In Darks Souls 3, the spell Repair sums up time the best saying, "...Light is Time..." As the fire fades, so too does light, causing time to act weird.
The convolution of all time!
I don’t know if anyone calls fromsoft lazy for building lore around gameplay mechanics, like you say in the beginning of this video - I think it’s universally considered one of the most creative aspects of the franchise.
I think we need to bring back appreciation for literary commentaries as works in their own right. Commentaries on important works were often held to just as much importance as an original work, and I think that practice is really being revived with channels like this and Lowkey’s actual books. There should be a section in the library for ‘Commentaries on the Works of Hidetaka Miyazaki’, right next to commentaries on Shakespeare!
Damn my man still going at it, been watching you for years and years now, love your vids to this day still. Thank you. Will there be any Ds2 lore? Maybe your take on alken and venn or maybe something else entirely, whatever it may be I'll be here. Much love always.
I'll defo consider it - this won't be the last video exploring the Souls series
"Time is an illusion that helps things make sense" 🎵
I can imagine how this time convolution can affect hollowing because of how typical it is to gain purpose just in living a normal life. not only does the trauma and horror of being incapable of dying affect this, but how maddening must it be for time to just not make sense anymore. a normal life is literally impossible because of the damage upon time. It's then the folks who have a single purpose to ground them that can stay sane, with hollowing being just another way to cope with the reality of how this world works now. you either crystalize around your "one thing" or you surrender to the world as it is.
It's then remarkable that anyone can rekindle the flame, since the world is built to only reward internal stagnation or crystallization of will, when to rekindle the flame you must push past that sameness and grow nonetheless.
These games are a wonderful medium for narrative. i wouldn't call the m a Rorschach test, to minimize the intention found in the story, but just how much of the story is about pushing past a world that all but requires your surrender to the stagnation and doing something new. it's the story that is applicable in whatever time and culture you're in: things suck right now and it's nearly impossible to escape the terminal velocity of it. you must try.
Wow i was literally thinking about your lore videos and hoping you would revisit souls
I am so excited to revisit Dark Souls, hope you enjoy this video!
@SmoughTown always do its great content!
Been looking forward to this video! :)
Thank you so much, hope you enjoy!
This reminds me of the NuWho concept of a Fixed Point in time. Almost like the fading of the First Flame was one such point and Gwynn fscking with it directly caused all temporal shenanigans.
Maybe the first flame is the center of all these convoluted timelines similar to a heliocentric model of the universe. By having one fire in the center of everything it means everything else is fuel slowly sliding and getting closer to the fire. That would explain the compression of time concepts becoming meaningless without fire granting energy/values to everything.
Again that’s why there’s sun worship it’s an easy real world analog following the life giving energy of the sun.
Problem is that everything is connected to the fire. Concepts, time, people. So that goes and everything goes because it’s connected.
20:00 - to add to that who’s to say we aren’t living through something of a memory of the bubble and as a result are seeing said events, maybe the people we interact with (npcs) see us differently also.
Thank you Geoff, best souls essay videos!
That means the world!
Most games don't even provide an explanation for multiplayer in game. I feel like dark souls reasoning for it was both lore appropriate and expands our understanding of how the world works
Thinking about this for a day, I just thought of something interesting.
The undead Asylum where the game begins is not located in lordran and it is the only place in the game where significant change occurs outside of the players direct or indirect action.
After leaving the undead asylum two black knights arrive from lordran, the prisoners leave their cells and arm themselves by the gate and the floor of the entrance hall becomes weaker. And somehow a doll ends up in what was once our cell.
Perhaps a significant amount of time has passed between when you first enter lordran and when you return to the asylum.
I’ve heard it theorized that the asylum demon is attempting to stop undead from pursuing the prophecy and linking the flame, if so the black knights would have a vested interest in stopping the demons activity’s, explaining their presence, the prisoners outside could be guarding the facility or perhaps they are preparing to enter lordran themselves with a newfound purpose of fulfilling the prophesy now that the way has been cleared. The stray demon is certainly not stopping them, perhaps he has strayed away from his assignment to stop them after the arrival of the black knights and the death of his partner, after all this time the allready crumbling building has weakened to the point that it’s collapsing around him.
love the video. i have rather similar thoughts, but my personal take on how time works in is akin to a river that has some part of it stagnating for some reason, and for our case its gwyn
with the flow of time aka the river, the stagnation slowly unravels and with each time stream that gets caught adds some colour to the stagnated portion.
for each player that quits, denies the linking and linking of the flame further dyes the water. (in this case denying the linking of the flames turns the water clear)
and for every action taken by players paradoxes will cancel themselves and eventually merge forcefully, like summoning tarkus to fight the giant becomes an unknown helper etc,
akin to that of the legacy of kain series where time will mend itself regardless of the consequences
Ah, stagnation. At last, we understand why there's always a poison swamp.
We are so BACK in Dark Souls, such a great world...