Great interview. As a studio staff member during the 90's, Alan was my direct boss for most of that time and he was really the focus of all we did. Absolutely everything went through him and I don't think his part in the development of GW as it is today can ever be overstated.
This interview - especially the ending of Fantasy and the dawn of AOS - is in itself a fascinating source which should become an important reference point for historically-informed debates on the 'death of fantasy' which (for good or for ill) continue to this day. Merrett is thoughtful and considered and does not appear to be interested in 'defending' the decision or his role in it- but in recounting the zeitgeist of GW at that time. Jordan, ever the historian and I am sure mindful of the importance of what he is hearing, also simply lets him speak. Undoubtedly questions still remain about why it happened, and I think particularly why GW required complete destruction of the Old World to achieve their objective. A decision that, we might suspect (and I certainly believe) that posterity will prove to be a deeply flawed one. But certainly I feel much happier having heard some considered thoughts from the inside. It is a shame something like this did not appear in the public realm some years ago. Still, it's much better that it has arrived now.
I was somewhat surprised that LOTR wasn't brought up as the in house competitor to WFB. It certainly diminished newer players from picking up fantasy and instead gravitating towards the more familiar LOTR. Regarding diminishing growth this also coincides with the end of LOTR releases (and film releases). Similarly AOS released after all the hobbit releases. Funny that warmaster was a regret when battle of five armies was released in a similar fashion.
Especially when the lotr rank and flank game (wotr?) was released. Can only speak for my own community but it felt like the release of 8th ed only clawed some back, others just moved elsewhere owing to fantasy’s issues once the interest in lotr mass battles dwindled
1:54:43 I think Alan has come across really well here and explained the thinking and process behind the WHF > AoS shift in a thoughtful way. I don’t think it will change the minds of some people however interviews like this will prove invaluable in future
Fascinating interview! I have to confess that the name of Alan Merrett is not one that Iv'e been aware of but clearly this man has been very influential in the development of GW's games and miniatures. Kudos to both of you for actually discussing the, as I understand it, hot potato of the leaving behind of Fantasy Old World. Thank you Alan for helping produce Space Hulk as I think its definitly one of the best games that GW has produced, no matter Bryan's comments (respectfully and RIP).
Jumping in here again. I understand the lack of interest in GW selling both WHF and AoS at the same time. However leaving WHF as a living ruleset and having the End Times as something to be explored through the medium of the narrative for AoS would probably have been the preferred route.
Fascinating insights. I may not agree with how the shift to AoS was done, or how the End Times were handled (and I still don't care for AoS), but I can understand why it was done. I also have heard some people comment that they feel that Alan's defense of the switch just doesn't make sense to them or is a poor one, and I don't think it has to, because it's not a defense. It's just an explanation of what the thought process was at the time. He really does come across as if saying "look, I liked Warhammer Fantasy as much as everyone else, but this was a business, and as a flagship product, it wasn't meeting expectations". I like that he confirmed that it wasn't dying (unlike the common thought at the time by its detractors), just that the expectations were higher. I also think that he's at peace with his decisions, it definitely feels that there's a part of him that would have liked it if things could have gone a different way.
This was very interesting. My reading based on all the interviews so far was: rapid growth under a hero innovator. Creativity continued but could not match the old growth rates as time went on. Then Kirkby came in and had to slash and burn to make the company lean and mean (this was successful but mistakes were made too). They’ve now made the successful transition from small, to medium to large ish company with a couple of cash flow crises along the way. More recently they seem to have got their creative mojo back and are back into expansion mode.
Kirby was more bothered about protecting his own retirement than growing the company. Year after year of "returning genuinely surplus cash to shareholders" instead of, for example, creating an online presence for the company... prices increasing by 15% a year, revenue increasing by 5% a year, that means people were leaving in droves; he was slowly killing GW. And look what's happened since he's gone. No reason at all it couldn't have happened under his watch, if only he'd wanted it.
Great observation and very true. So many interviewers make the mistake of being too formal/structured or speaking over the interviewees. Jordan gets it bang on and it makes for a very good interview.
Great interview Jordan this is awesome! I’m not sure anyone knew it was Merret who had the end times idea, and the discussion on the transition and motivations re the Ansell to Kirby period was great too!
What a great interview. Wasn't aware of Alan's work before now. Your interview style is perfect for getting the most out of your guests, Jordan. You have a very humble, unassuming approach that is refreshing. ❤
I think what really made AoS feel like a big kick in the teeth when it happened wasn't just destroying the old world and moving from ranks to skirmish but more the tonal shift if appeared to give at first. AoS at first felt like it was suddenly becoming very tonally similar to Warcraft, very glowy and simplified heroes. Stormcast being super emblematic of this as well as suddenly lumping all the armies together in ways that felt like a jumble and simplification. Plus doubling down on all the stupid trademarkable faction names which really wasn't all that important for protecting the business. And I guess it was hard to take the 1 page rules with no points seriously - particularly when taken with army rules that gave you bonuses for shouting and doing stupid stuff at the table - how are we going to take it seriously when you don't seem to be either. It was hard to see the long-term vision of how it would become what it is now. A good example of this is Orks basically at first being stripped down to Big Unz and Night Goblins they lost a lot of their character, were simplified and lost diversity. But then later on you Kruleboyz who felt really fresh and inline with the grittier side of the warhammer lore. Super impressed with the Free Cities which feel like a really good modernisation of Empire with some AoS uniqueness. Even stormcast you just got Sigmars son and he looks a little bit less cartoon hero than the rest of them. I have been really impressed with the freedom and imagination that AoS has ultimately bought... the Sphiranx is absolutely beautiful. Harkening back to older designs with the Jabberslythe and Slannesh Hedonites. We finally got a Keeper of Secrets model that lived up to Slannesh's vibe without just looking creepy and haggard. (I really hope that Emperors Children release borrows notes from this approach to Slannesh). You can really tell that the AoS designers are having some of the most fun and creative license. So ultimately I think AoS has been a good move, but they could have been a bit more careful with it's initial release. I hate stormcast but I guess they must be successful given the number of releases they've done for them before they got to free cities - so hard to say how I would change this particular aspect as they really did feel a big part of the insult. But there could have been some kind of counterbalance to reassure us. Totally appreciate why Alan felt he needed to propose a change, and totally agree with the unlimited potential thing that the ex-CEO said in the other video. I actually feel like 40k should embrace some of the unlimited potential stuff a bit more - I sometimes think that 40k and spin offs doesn't embrace this potential as much as AoS is and get a bit jealous particularly now Blackstone is done. Mini rant, but hopefully it seems thoughtful rather than aggressive.
Agreed. AoS was a crash landing at launch and still has a way to go, but it’s managed to drag itself out of the wreckage and wipe the dust and debris off a fair bit
It wasnt the setting. They could have just done a skirmish game in the same period. The success of TW Warhammer shows that they made a mistake. They could have monetised that, but mnost of the models are unavailable
You can’t guarantee that video game players will convert to tabletop - the barrier to entry in terms of price and time commitment is significantly higher for tabletop, so assuming that TW fans would migrate to WHFB or TOW is tenuous. I’ve seen people point to Baldurs Gate 3 as an example of player bases converting, but D&D has a much lower barrier to entry than Warhammer, so I don’t think they are comparable.
@@donotinteract7851 No, but GW make money by selling models, not by people playing their games. I imagine more people buy and paint models that actually play the games. Just look at Funko pops. They sell massively well, and do nothing except sit there. There doesnt need to be a means to an end if the end if just to have something cool sitting on your shelf Painting a rank and file of 30 pikemen was never going to be "fun" for most people though. Focusing on characters and monsters was probably the wa to go, and while some of the range are still available, very few are in store. I have spent many thousands myself, and never once actually played a tabletop game.
1:25:01 I get it, Warhammer Fantasy was not selling anywhere near what 40K was selling, however, I find the answers here completely underwhelming. The idea that the Legacy was the problem I don't buy. To me, that answer betrays a terrible lack of creativity on the part of GW at the time. Feels like an easy way out. Furthermore, at 1:29:15 I find this to be a very weak answer. You don't "need" clean sweep the setting and GW certainly did not "Need" to do it the way they did. The End Times felt like a slap in the face, and following it up with something like AoS was a kick in the balls. The Irony is that they could not have seen Total War saving the day, and now I wait patiently for the Old World.
Another fantastic interview. Really interesting. Thanks Jordan! He makes some really valid points… I would only buy High Elves (and the odd Dwarf slayer) back in the old days but now I have Stormcast, Fyreslayers, KO, Nighthaunt and am very tempted to pick up Flesh Eater Courts. The Old World is great but many of us made our minds up about our factions and loyalties decades ago, the mortal realms give hobbyists a sand box to play in. On a different point entirely I always wonder why GW don’t support their 3rd party companies more: Cubicle 7 did a great job with 4th edition WFRP- I’ve never understood why it isn’t linked on the main GW site. As a game it really brings the Empire to life and might be an excellent way to cement the Empire as the go to faction for the Old World.
Such a good interview. This slots right in with the new “Talking Miniatures” book set by John Stallard and Robin Dews… who I had the pleasure of meeting this summer along with several other GW luminaries having similar discussions but with a pint or two of beer involved. There really was a golden era of Games Workshop and it lasted a long, long time. Heck, there’s probably a golden era going on right now; it really just depends on your perspective. His explanation on how the AoS game came to be released sounds completely reasonable; it ultimately comes down to how your customers are choosing to spend their dollars/pounds and we as individuals can’t see the bigger picture; we just know what WE want for our personal collection. I always felt like the setting of the mortal realms of AoS was a very calculated copy of Magic the Gatherings Planeswalker aesthetic. That may or may not have been the case, but his explanation of the mortal realms being a halfway point to the true Realm of Chaos is interesting. I like that. Thank you so much for doing this interview. Imho, getting interviews like this one and making them available to the public is quite important for us as life-long fans. It helps set the record straight on aspects of the company behind the hobby we’ve spent/wasted so much of our time on. :-)
How do you get these interviewees! I’ve been wanting to hear a decent chat with Alan for years. Such an important figure in GW’s history (and therefore mine, too!). Great to hear from him at last, seems like a nice bloke.
It is interesting to hear him say earlier that you can’t let the sales people make the decisions and then later hear that probably the most controversial decision the company has ever made was essentially dictated by sales
I think there's a difference between letting sales people tell you what they think you should be doing in the future, and the entire team having to address the problem that WHFB was not selling and had not been selling for years. What would have been interesting is to reflect on the fact that Total Warhammer was going to launch just after the setting it was based on was killed off. Given that Dawn of War had a measurable impact on 40K sales in 2004, especially in the US (my US store-owning colleague tells me), it seems particularly dunderheaded to have killed WHFB just as the most expensive advert ever for the game was launched (and probably led to The Old World being commissioned).
@@adamwhitehead7289I’d guess maybe they didn’t expect the computer game to be so successful? There have been a lot of rubbish GW computer games over the years. I agree that it was bad timing though.
@@glyngreen538 If it was another no-name developer with no pedigree, I'd agree, but it was Creative Assembly and Total War, absolutely massive brands with a large fanbase. And Total Warhammer came about because of an incredibly popular mod for Medieval II: Total War called Call of Warhammer, which showed an enthusiastic fanbase and how uniquely suited to Warhammer the Total War gameplay style was. They really should have known this was going to be different.
@@glyngreen538the video game was popular, but how many Total Warhammer players do you really think will pick up quite an expensive hobby when they freak out about paying $30 for a dlc? I don’t think Total Warhammer is the silver bullet that some players think it is. Judging by GW’s decision to hand ToW to Forgeworld, I don’t think they do either.
Mate. You might need to slow down or else you'll have crushed it with every famous figure in the hobby before your channel is even 2 years old! Thank you for reaching out to someone like this - it's very important to see controversial decisions holistically, which you have helped to achieve with this one. Cracking work bud.
Great interview, it was nice to hear all the behinds the scenes info about the business side of things. Fans get very emotional about their hobbies but ultimately they're made by a business to make money, for better and for worse.
This logic for killing fantasy outright instead of just putting it on a backburner strikes me as absolutely demented by industry standards. The fear of splitting the consumerbase of not getting as many people on board for X or Y new setting, thus prompting you to absolutely destroy a setting (and thus destroy interest in the setting's narrative even in the future barring retcons) means you just aggravated a consumer demographic for no good reason, more so than just putting stuff on the backburner. The best example I can think of is Wizards of the Coast, because settings fall out of favor and lose support for editions, sometimes MULTIPLE. Yet WOTC hasn't decided to commission some ten book deathknell for Dark Sun because it hasn't gotten support for 5e as they move to 6e, 1e, or whatever they're calling it now.
As someone who still loves Warhammer but now also works in a corporate environment, it's interesting to think about how there are all these different elements involved in working at this scale that the consumer isn't aware of. It's great having everyone in your company be passionate about wargaming and all that, but unless you're a tiny business like GW would have been back in the 80s it's just not possible, and a massive company like GW does need someone like Alan to keep all of these factors like production, sales, opportunity cost (the bit about how producing WFB units that don't sell taking up space & money that could go towards 40k units that do sell) etc in mind when making these big decisions. Decisions which then get filtered down to the community as "GW killed WFB because they were greedy".
1:38:00 I have a feeling what kept the Empire from being popular, sales wise, is that their models were gorgeous, but _intimidating._ Landsknecht-inspired troops, with cut sleeves and plumed hats. Complicated color schemes. And you needed to paint a bunch of them, because they're low-key a horde army. Compare this to, say, Imperial Guard in 40K, who have less demanding sculpts to paint most times. (Plus, there were more tanks in Guard, and those were less ornate than the DeVinci style tanks of the Empire. So collectors of Guard had an easier time padding their armies with vehicles). Even comparing Empire to other WHFB factions, there's many options that asked less of players, in regards to painting skill and time investment. Skaven were mostly flesh color, metallics, and brown. Elves (pick a version) could be mostly one color and still look decent. Large portions of Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings are just bone color. And aside from maybe High Elves, most armies wouldn't mind if the painter was a bit sloppy. Empire was at the nexus of being very complicated, and being noticeable if the models don't look right (especially the faces; humans notice when human skin and faces don't look right). At least Bretonnian knights all wore face-concealing helmets, and had large blank spaces on their models. While you could get very intricate with a Bretonnian knight, you didn't _have_ to. Whereas Empire soldiers sort of encourages getting extensive with it. For someone with limited time or developing painting skill, the Empire has a number of hurdles directly related to how good their sculpts looked. It ended up being a double-edged sword. EDIT: Actually, another point. While we fans of both Warhammer and history obviously appreciate the Landsknecht style, the lay person just getting into fantasy wargames may not. The person whose main cultural understanding of the Fantasy genre is informed by Tolkien, King Arthur, and maybe some computer RPGs or D&D. These folks look at the old Empire models and think, "They look kind of weird, don't they? They've got tights and cod pieces, puffy shirts and plumed hats. These are the normal humans of the Warhammer world?" And then they look at all the other factions in the game at the time, and see plenty of them that match their preconceived notions of what Fantasy is. The Dwarfs look like Tolkien Dwarves, the Elves look like Tolkien elves (even the Dark Elves are just "Elves, But Evil"; so, Drow, basically). Orcs & Goblins look like Orcs and Goblins "should look". Etc, etc. It's the Empire that looked very much at odds with the unexamined expectations for what "generic medieval fantasy humans" are "supposed" to look like. They don't know it's more Renaissance, and that's not necessarily what they expected or wanted out of a Fantasy game. They expected leather and mail, helmets, etc. That they got deliberately flamboyant Renaissance mercenaries puts off people who would otherwise want to choose the "generic" human faction. This is probably part of why GW replaced them with the current "Cities of Sigmar" range. Made them more in line with what people, then as now, expect humans to wear in a fantasy setting.
And another problem might have been, that you could always get a nice Empire Army made out of metal and sculpted by those Perry twins, who also did most of 4th-6th Edition Empire Army figures, via Foundry Miniatures.
I think this is a really good point about the sheer complexity of an Empire army vs say, Space Marines or Stormcast. It can definitely be an intimidating prospect!
One lesson that I hope HE have learnt from Warmaster for HH/LI is to integrate the release schedule for each army across both games. The weakness that third edition Epic and Warmaster had was that it felt like everything for all the factions were pumped out in a short amount of time, and then never heard of again.
Brave of you to share this on the Warhammer Fantasy Reddit, Jordan, they're not renowned for liking, well, anything over there. They're not even particularly fond of Warhammer! 😂 Interesting to hear another inside source that wished Warmaster had done better, I honestly have no idea why that game didn't do better. From the little I played of it, it seemed like a massively superior implementation of the WFB concept and the models were great (albeit not plastic). Also interesting to hear here for the first time that it nearly got a semi-revival until the AoS project developed fully, I'd have loved to try that (I'm all about tiny tiny people, got my LI preorder in), but I can see why ditching everyone's existing 28mm armies completely would have gone down like a pewter balloon.
Obviously i didn't see the message at the end there, i hope this isnt seen as a hateful or reductive comment. I thoroughly enjoyed this interview and thought Alan came across well. Feel free to remove my comment in s equally respectable way Jordan.
Lots of cool stuff covered in this interview. And I gotta add that Alan has been thus far most pleasant to listen. So chill and calm. I might re-listen this one sooner rather than later. Really good work with these.
1:37:15 something interesting to consider about human armies not selling better. The most played, popular and best selling faction of all three total war warhammer titles is the Empire, the least popular is Warriors of Chaos. Also now that Old World is out, Bretonnians have sold extremely well, outselling Tomb Kings at launch day and half the range remains out of stock and in demand online. This suggests just how out of touch GW were/are when it comes to interest in WHFB. For me, a decade long Bretonnian player, 8th was the absolute worst edition to enter into, very expensive rules, high model count requirements and deliberate faction favouritism. Imagine my shock having started playing Bretonnia to realise the range was from 2003, featured a downsized roster from 5th edition and imo sold one of the worst model aesthetic downgrades of all time. What GW needed to do was downsize the scale of the game, now they have with Old World and are reaping the benefits. Hopefully in the future they can explore alternate timelines like Storm of Chaos when the world didn't end and we can see some of those cancelled Warhammer Forge projects.
Interesting, one thing though I wonder how many other people did as I did, found AOS uninteresting and just lost interest in GW, even though I was an avid 40K player at the time.
Regarding the radioactive metal scare, another old employee mentioned it in an interview and apparently they feared that they had been sold lead scrap from an x-ray machine.
A jaunty "'Allo" at the beginning of a video is as much a sign I'm about to enjoy a solid gaming vid as the kickarse baseline at the start of GMG or "Hello guys, Marco here".
Thanks for doing these Jordan, but Jesus I'm 47 mins in and its like pulling teeth! well done getting anything out of him, he definitely feels like one of the none hobbyists who was within the company. Zero passion about the minis or product ranges he worked on. Dunno mate, he just hasnt sat right with me. Anyway, I'll watch til the end cause I love you lol x
He is a bit of a slow talker, and takes a while getting to the point... interesting to hear though that his gaming tastes are actually the opposite of what most people might assume - no particular fondness for 40k, but actually tons of affection for Warhammer Fantasy.
After slogging through it, you're right and he did show a little humour. It was interesting but hard work. Jordan smashed it out the park with this one, I couldn't have been that patient hehe xxx
He definitely came across more as someone recounting their time in a job rather than talking on a topic they were passionate about. He did seem to loosen up a little more towards the end of the interview but it was a long walk to get there.
Everything is framed in terms of commercial potential: seems important, but paradoxically an over-emphasis on commerciality can ruin a fictional universe. Look at Star Wars or other valuable I.P.s: they go through various stages of first creativity and then attempts at taking the fiction and using it to justify sales. I understand Alan’s view related to needing a new start, both creatively and financially, but throughout these interviews it still doesn’t make sense to literally ‘blow up’ your prior efforts to do so. Alan seems to have been working somewhat with the hand he was dealt as best he could. Outstanding work, Jordan- thank you for asking these questions so we can understand the thought process behind the execution. Literally. 😂
Well put. Being 'uncommercial' is paradoxically quite a marketable virtue if you know your customer and are thinking long term. Things which appeal only to a few often REALLY appeal those few, and those customers will stick around forever.
Jes Goodwin's original Eldar Aspect Warriors range: Probably some of the best design/concept GW ever produced imho. GW should have kept doing specialist game systems imho, keep diversifying instead of stultifying and narrowing. Yes growth of one game was good but it needs to put some of the returns into incubating new systems that may break-out... Long-term strategy would have been better imho.
Interesting interview, but, he…talks…really…slowly…&…it…grates…on…my…nerves. It was such a refreshing change when you asked questions! Thanks for producing the best WH content Jordan 🫡
Fantastic interview. Still, in many ways, I'm glad that he's no longer with the company. Profit should not be the only driving force of every product. The word symbiosis was perfect. Without Tyranids etc, you'd have no one for the beloved Space Marines to fight. In order to have a healthy company you need more than just profitable items. Events don't usually turn a huge profit but have hidden gains. Secondary games lead to new loyal customers. I work for a company that makes most of it's money from theme parks, but can take risks because of this, and can indulge in secondary ventures that have hidden gains.
Whfb sold so badly toward the end because they'd made rules specifically to sell more and more models per unit. It became totally unaffordable as a game when a single unit would need four or five boxes just to be viable
It’s great to see another chat with a serious person in GW history. I get it was a commercial decision. But they really did WFB fans a brutal insult with this “end of times” malarkey. Having the rules available online and just ending it (like Mordheim or for a time Blood bowl) would have been preferable. I get creators needed space but to destroy the gaming universe is something many will never forgive even if we’ll try TOW.
Destroying it forced players to accept it wasn’t coming back and thus to pick up the new game. Just shelving it doesn’t do that, neither does having the rules available online/for free. It made good business sense, even if we personally didn’t like it.
In respect of the Eldar guy and the black library books, I think the subtext here was he was saying @I daren't read that because I can't afford the money and time required to start a second army'
^This. Warhammer armies are expensive investments. Both in money, and in time and effort needed to bring them to tabletop ready status. It's entirely reasonable that someone would be reluctant to read stories outside of their chosen faction, because they literally cannot afford to fall in love with a new army.
@@Bluecho4 It is sad though, particularly when it is so easy to collect multiple factions for many other more accessible wargames on the market currently.
Lol. "Like... in some cases.. really insane"😄 Great vid as ever I always hope these guys realise just how much enjoyment they have added to the world Cubicle 7 left the Uk to relocate in Ireland due to BREXIT (another BREXIT success story (for another country of course))
The only reason Warhammer Fantasy Battles stopped selling was because Games Workslop’s fault some Armies hadn’t had a rehash for over 5 years ie Bretonnians and even new models so established players could collect new models their Fkd up focus was on 40k and that’s why Fantasy failed and I for one will never forgive them for it 🔥 🔥 🔥
This has been a common view in my gaming group for the last 10 years. I think only now are we realising that It didn't stop, it was just abandoned. I've built the warriors of chaos army of my boyhood dreams over the past 3 months with some patience on eBay and a pile of old white dwarf magazines. It's the best hobbying I've ever done. Corporations are cumbersome beasts, theres nothing which can be done about it.
Alan mate its ok i can see the weight on your shoulders and regret (1.29.08 ) its coming back be well and know we still love the game back then as we do now.
Fascinating interview! It was really interesting to hear it from "the horse's mouth" as it were, regarding the killing off of the Old World of WHFB, but it makes some sense. I disagree that they couldn't have just kind of shelved it, told the fan base that it was going into stasis and that something new was coming, but that's just my opinion and I don't run a global games manufacturer! :D
Some questions rarely asked: Why did they increase the size of miniatures with the advent of 4th Edition WFB from 28mm to 30mm? Amd why do ALL models from 4th Edition look so crap and clumsy when compared to these both in the late 80s and from Mordheim and 6th Edition WFB? And was Tom Kirby who started out with TSR UK and even wrote an AD&D adventure for them ever really interested in the hobby?
Ironically, Warhammer Fantasy somehow feels stronger than ever. Without Games Workshop. It's so celebrated on countless of youtube channels, we have fan editions, we've seen a boom in 3D printed miniatures, we have computer games, roleplaying games and there's even been a huge surge in Mordheim, which I very much consider Warhammer adjacent. Everything with little or no direct creative GW interference. There's money being left on the table for sure. And part of me feels that GW is now coming crawling back to the fandom with 'The Old World' game, mainly for that reason. We shall see how it fares. And how it will be received. The question is perhaps, do we even need it at this point? We shall see.
I am very happy with all the hype it's generated. Fantasy has quickly become our main game again after 10 years away. We will try old world, and welcome the return of old plastics but if they make a mess of it, no bother, we have many complete editions to work with from the past and enough supplementary content for those editions to last decades.
There's no shortage of games that stepped in to the fill the void GW left. Oathmark, 9th Age, Kings of War, Age of Fantasy: Regiments, Conquest: Last Argument of Kings, A Song of Ice & Fire, etc. Even alternate versions of WHFB, whether that's existing/previous versions, or the Warhammer Armies Project's fan-made 9th edition. By pivoting their Fantasy subset to a "skirmish" style mass battle game, GW effectively ceded the rank-and-flank fantasy genre to other games. Games that gladly filled the void, and have now become thoroughly entrenched. The Old World has name recognition, sure, but they're still competing with companies/communities that have been keeping the torch lit for almost a decade. There's no guarantee people will stick with The Old World long term.
I mean it's probably inspired by Blood Bowl. Blood Bowl goes OOP, fans pick up the slack, eventually GW comes back and finds they can still make money from producing official blood bowl stuff even though a whole homebrew industry exists. Why wouldn't they do the same for WHF? There are a lot of people who seem completely unable to move outside of the 'newest edition', ie even though many people hate 8th edition+ 40k, they either play it or they play one page rules or something, rather than just going back to the old edition. You need to find a specific group willing to still play the old thing, which is why TOW is probably guaranteed at least some success
In what world is Warhammer Fantasy "stronger than ever" beyond its video games? TOW was not GW crawling back, it was throwing it a bone. GW plainly isn't exactly throwing a lot of resources in revamping the miniatures beyond adding a new centerpiece model, and is starting off with very few factions to begin with.
There's no way in hell GW put anywhere near enough resources or effort into fantasy as 40k. Later editions focused on homogenizing armies by giving everyone and their mums a big dual monster kit/monstrous cavalry instead of leaning into the unique playstyle and lore of each army. And then new army books (for those fortunate enough to get them) started to come out with massively sub par QC and content (background art being missed out of the 8e Lizardmen book and instead just showing text saying 'art here' was one of my highlights). Not only that, but homogenization was compounded by armies losing unique mechanics and magic items. A whole series of bad mistakes failed fantasy and the huge effort that was put into AoS could have turned Fantasy around with a new edition and new lore and new models and factions. A huge amount of the amazing models they've released for AoS could just have been released as WHF and revitalized the range and interests and gameplay. Could have released Cathay or Kislev or Idoneth as new factions. Move the timeline on a hundred years and change things up.
Nope. The WHFB barely accepted Demigryphs, anything more high fantasy would have caused the fanbase to explode. The fanbase is split between fantasy and historical enjoyers.
Hi Jordan, thanks for the interview, I love this type of content. I think that it would be great to have some time stamps because it's quite a long interview and I would have loved to select some parts and listen to them in priority, not being sure of having time to watch the entire thing :)
Really liked this interview. As I mentioned when I joined the bookclub, I have never really played Warhammer only studied the world. And that was mostly the Old World, and that is what I think about when I think Warhammer fantasy. Want to learn more about the later stuff, though.
Alan, I don't hate you for AOS and for killing off one of the most fun Fantasy settings of all time, but I won't be sending you any Chirstmas cards either.
Fascinating stuff - great to understand from one of the key decision makers the reasoning behind such a massive change. I have to say that Alan seemed more than a bit nervous to out and out own the decision, and hope that he doesn’t get a horde of angry nerds after him as his thanks for sharing some amazing insights and history.
1:40:42 - I’m not sure why he finds it surprising that the stuff in tourney armies usually weren’t the best sellers; most people probably don’t play in tournaments, so what gets used in a tournament army isn’t really reflective of what the average gamer would use. A lot of non-tourney armies are not min-maxed, and plenty will be built around a theme rather than built to crush everything else. Also, this is a hobby of more than just gamers; there’s a significant number of people that just collect the minis to paint, and those people are not going to be buying to fit a tourney list, they’re buying minis that they think look good or which they think will challenge their skills, etc.
He looked at things wrong when deciding on Warhammer Fantasy Battle. If say Xbox were looking at sales of consoles, games, controllers etc they wouldn't bin off making controllers because they don't make as much sales profit as consoles and games. Good luck having a thriving business when theres no controllers available to use on those consoles and to play those games with. Games Workshop has a product, some parts of that product may perform better or worse at different times, but its being sold to a limited customer base. If customer A is spending all their money on 40k you can't expect them to match that spend on Warhammer too. The customer base will grow or shrink because of the width of options within that product. If the whole product is profitable all parts need funding. Not internal competition between individual elements within the market.
Another brilliant interview, and a good perspective on the demise (temporary) of Warhammer Fantasy. I'll never agree with that decision, but I can only speak as a fan, and a business is another beast entirely. Thanks for continuing to bring these fine folks and their stories out to us, Jordan.
I can assure you, after working for decades in both private and public companies, that there really isn’t. Shareholders and private owners want the same thing - return on investment, and quite rightly so. It’s their money they’ve invested, after all.
{🤔} I _think_ most discerning, intelligent Wargaming Consumers realize that the *_Ideal_* is the marriage of High Creativity & Great Storytelling & Games / " Mechanics ~WITH~ A Sound Business Model which allows the Company to not only be profitable, but to grow year over year; while producing Content & Models that the Community actually want & love. What a lot of vocal critics of -GW- (sorry) *_Warhammer_* these days is that --GW- *_Warhammer_* is leaning much to far to the later side of: *_PROFITABILITY 1ST,_* Pleasing The *Stockholders:* 2nd *......and the **_Wants, Needs & (simple) Desires of The Community (i.e. The Paying Customer) have been relegated to a Tertiary Consideration at best by _**_-GW-_**_ _*Warhammer Inc._* (& when you add in quarterly prices rises w/ no visible rise in Value or Quality year on year....you can begin to understand the grievances of dedicated / Long-term Warhammer Hobbyists & displeased _Casuals_ alike. (* See J.Sorcery Interview w/ Corporate Mako Shark _Ex *CEO Mark Wells)* ⚔🐉
"We never willingly put any effort into anything we didn't think was going to sell" - makes sense, and seems pretty much in line with their history from the outset.
Thank you Jordan for this enlightening interview and to Alan for his thoughts. I think WHFB had some big mechanical problems that got in the way of enjoyable hobbying: most of all the cagey and stressful movement phase where you'd spend most of every game hovering your armies just beyond maximum charge range, and measuring angles. Moving units, or lining them up in combat to use & abuse "base contact" rules, was a bit of a nightmare particularly where units featured a lot of characters. Armour did very little. Also (las)cannons, particularly chariot (las)cannons, and Irresistible mega spells. Old World looks to have fixed lots of these issues and I hope will be a freer game to play. God's speed Warhammer Fantasy!
Why wouldnt have people welcomed plastic kits of the metal ones for fantasy? How is that not as good as doing something new? I mean... this interview wreaks of being out of touch with the customer base. Hes a good man for giving his time but it really seems like GW has succeeded in spite of itself over the last 15 years rather than because of anything theyve done. Imo theyve been sitting on a gold mine for decades and they keep making questionable business choices that seem successful (like AoS) but ultimately is the lesser of multiple possible paths and options. He said it himself, back in the day they made tons of mistakes. I think the people who managed the company found themselves ass backwards into a brilliant IP and continued to run it suboptimal for decades
At launch AoS was an awful game. I understand it has developed into a fairly solid rule system now, and has been commercially successful. I still hate the setting and background, they just don't work for me. Right from The End Times I have disliked the models - too fancy and frilly. I was very angry about TET, but I understand the commercial need for a reset, this was well explained. The one thing I will NEVER forgive are the ridiculous rules that were put in the initial AoS army lists that effectively made fun of WFB diehards, big mistake. Humour is fine, it's always been part of the background, making fun of your customers is stupid.
While it took me a while to get through this there's some really interesting things here. Firstly, it is interesting to reflect that there was so much baggage around fantasy to keep it going - must have been a real genius moment when Merret realised that the only way to change the path dependencies was a clean break. Secondly, I think this is the first time (albeit) i've seen anyone at gw or elsewhere in the miniatures business acknowledge that part of manufacturers' strategy is to basically create the image among hobbyists that it isn't simply business and that from the inside this appears weird. I think this dissonance has been at the core of certain "controversies" like squatting in the past.
I remember the death of the Old World as being such a crisis point for so many people. It is interesting that one of the one key elements of a very limited rule set to easy the entry of new players seems to have been forgotten (probably in lieu of Warcry and Underworld). I am glad it happened though. It has opened up the setting to be able to deliver such a broad range of miniatures for the new races and factions.
My biggest criticism with The End Times is that it needed to be twice if not thrice as long. I love Sigmar's Blood. It was my entry point into the hobby, it's designed to sell the entirety of two armies on a narrative basis. But there's so much soul poured into it by the authors. I want that for the main series of books (Nagash, Glottkin), but also covering some of the smaller storylines. That most armies would have an end-of-days story at the start of Nagash that could have been it's own campaign book (Bretonnia is probably the best example) is a missed opportunity.
Great interview. As a studio staff member during the 90's, Alan was my direct boss for most of that time and he was really the focus of all we did. Absolutely everything went through him and I don't think his part in the development of GW as it is today can ever be overstated.
This interview - especially the ending of Fantasy and the dawn of AOS - is in itself a fascinating source which should become an important reference point for historically-informed debates on the 'death of fantasy' which (for good or for ill) continue to this day. Merrett is thoughtful and considered and does not appear to be interested in 'defending' the decision or his role in it- but in recounting the zeitgeist of GW at that time. Jordan, ever the historian and I am sure mindful of the importance of what he is hearing, also simply lets him speak.
Undoubtedly questions still remain about why it happened, and I think particularly why GW required complete destruction of the Old World to achieve their objective. A decision that, we might suspect (and I certainly believe) that posterity will prove to be a deeply flawed one. But certainly I feel much happier having heard some considered thoughts from the inside. It is a shame something like this did not appear in the public realm some years ago. Still, it's much better that it has arrived now.
I was somewhat surprised that LOTR wasn't brought up as the in house competitor to WFB. It certainly diminished newer players from picking up fantasy and instead gravitating towards the more familiar LOTR.
Regarding diminishing growth this also coincides with the end of LOTR releases (and film releases). Similarly AOS released after all the hobbit releases.
Funny that warmaster was a regret when battle of five armies was released in a similar fashion.
Especially when the lotr rank and flank game (wotr?) was released. Can only speak for my own community but it felt like the release of 8th ed only clawed some back, others just moved elsewhere owing to fantasy’s issues once the interest in lotr mass battles dwindled
1:54:43 I think Alan has come across really well here and explained the thinking and process behind the WHF > AoS shift in a thoughtful way. I don’t think it will change the minds of some people however interviews like this will prove invaluable in future
Fascinating interview! I have to confess that the name of Alan Merrett is not one that Iv'e been aware of but clearly this man has been very influential in the development of GW's games and miniatures. Kudos to both of you for actually discussing the, as I understand it, hot potato of the leaving behind of Fantasy Old World.
Thank you Alan for helping produce Space Hulk as I think its definitly one of the best games that GW has produced, no matter Bryan's comments (respectfully and RIP).
Jumping in here again. I understand the lack of interest in GW selling both WHF and AoS at the same time. However leaving WHF as a living ruleset and having the End Times as something to be explored through the medium of the narrative for AoS would probably have been the preferred route.
Agreed.❤
100%
The only reason they sold both at the same time was pure greed WFB was knocked on the head they were just trying to sell old stock and that’s it
Been saying this for 7 years... lmfao
Jordan, you are killing it with these interviews. So interesting
Fascinating insights. I may not agree with how the shift to AoS was done, or how the End Times were handled (and I still don't care for AoS), but I can understand why it was done. I also have heard some people comment that they feel that Alan's defense of the switch just doesn't make sense to them or is a poor one, and I don't think it has to, because it's not a defense. It's just an explanation of what the thought process was at the time. He really does come across as if saying "look, I liked Warhammer Fantasy as much as everyone else, but this was a business, and as a flagship product, it wasn't meeting expectations". I like that he confirmed that it wasn't dying (unlike the common thought at the time by its detractors), just that the expectations were higher. I also think that he's at peace with his decisions, it definitely feels that there's a part of him that would have liked it if things could have gone a different way.
This was very interesting. My reading based on all the interviews so far was: rapid growth under a hero innovator. Creativity continued but could not match the old growth rates as time went on. Then Kirkby came in and had to slash and burn to make the company lean and mean (this was successful but mistakes were made too). They’ve now made the successful transition from small, to medium to large ish company with a couple of cash flow crises along the way. More recently they seem to have got their creative mojo back and are back into expansion mode.
Kirby was more bothered about protecting his own retirement than growing the company. Year after year of "returning genuinely surplus cash to shareholders" instead of, for example, creating an online presence for the company... prices increasing by 15% a year, revenue increasing by 5% a year, that means people were leaving in droves; he was slowly killing GW. And look what's happened since he's gone. No reason at all it couldn't have happened under his watch, if only he'd wanted it.
A brilliant interview again! Gotta say that I like your style of giving plenty of room for people to just chat and tell their stories.
Great observation and very true. So many interviewers make the mistake of being too formal/structured or speaking over the interviewees. Jordan gets it bang on and it makes for a very good interview.
Completely agree
Interviewers who jumps into any tiny though gap come across as irritating prats
The BBC would do well to bring JS on staff
Fascinating and insightful interview with Alan Merrett, great job Jordan!
Thank you!
Another amazing insightful interview, so many snippets of information.
Great interview Jordan this is awesome! I’m not sure anyone knew it was Merret who had the end times idea, and the discussion on the transition and motivations re the Ansell to Kirby period was great too!
Excellent another fascinating discussion on GW and the hobby as it relates to Citadel....
« I am a big fan of Warhammer Fantasy Battles and I still believe it is a BY FAR superior game to anything we have done in 40k » Alan Merrett
Please keep these coming, the content is simply top drawer. Really interesting guest & insights, fascinating 🧐
What a great interview. Wasn't aware of Alan's work before now. Your interview style is perfect for getting the most out of your guests, Jordan. You have a very humble, unassuming approach that is refreshing. ❤
I think what really made AoS feel like a big kick in the teeth when it happened wasn't just destroying the old world and moving from ranks to skirmish but more the tonal shift if appeared to give at first.
AoS at first felt like it was suddenly becoming very tonally similar to Warcraft, very glowy and simplified heroes. Stormcast being super emblematic of this as well as suddenly lumping all the armies together in ways that felt like a jumble and simplification. Plus doubling down on all the stupid trademarkable faction names which really wasn't all that important for protecting the business. And I guess it was hard to take the 1 page rules with no points seriously - particularly when taken with army rules that gave you bonuses for shouting and doing stupid stuff at the table - how are we going to take it seriously when you don't seem to be either.
It was hard to see the long-term vision of how it would become what it is now.
A good example of this is Orks basically at first being stripped down to Big Unz and Night Goblins they lost a lot of their character, were simplified and lost diversity. But then later on you Kruleboyz who felt really fresh and inline with the grittier side of the warhammer lore.
Super impressed with the Free Cities which feel like a really good modernisation of Empire with some AoS uniqueness. Even stormcast you just got Sigmars son and he looks a little bit less cartoon hero than the rest of them.
I have been really impressed with the freedom and imagination that AoS has ultimately bought... the Sphiranx is absolutely beautiful. Harkening back to older designs with the Jabberslythe and Slannesh Hedonites. We finally got a Keeper of Secrets model that lived up to Slannesh's vibe without just looking creepy and haggard. (I really hope that Emperors Children release borrows notes from this approach to Slannesh). You can really tell that the AoS designers are having some of the most fun and creative license.
So ultimately I think AoS has been a good move, but they could have been a bit more careful with it's initial release. I hate stormcast but I guess they must be successful given the number of releases they've done for them before they got to free cities - so hard to say how I would change this particular aspect as they really did feel a big part of the insult. But there could have been some kind of counterbalance to reassure us.
Totally appreciate why Alan felt he needed to propose a change, and totally agree with the unlimited potential thing that the ex-CEO said in the other video. I actually feel like 40k should embrace some of the unlimited potential stuff a bit more - I sometimes think that 40k and spin offs doesn't embrace this potential as much as AoS is and get a bit jealous particularly now Blackstone is done.
Mini rant, but hopefully it seems thoughtful rather than aggressive.
Agreed. AoS was a crash landing at launch and still has a way to go, but it’s managed to drag itself out of the wreckage and wipe the dust and debris off a fair bit
If that was a mini-rant, I dread to imagine what your idea of a maxi-rant looks like.
It wasnt the setting. They could have just done a skirmish game in the same period. The success of TW Warhammer shows that they made a mistake. They could have monetised that, but mnost of the models are unavailable
Lmao the TWW player are ready to burn CA over a 25 dollars DLC and you think they would buy, build and paint entire armies ?
You can never equate video game to tabletop. It's a totally different audience
You can’t guarantee that video game players will convert to tabletop - the barrier to entry in terms of price and time commitment is significantly higher for tabletop, so assuming that TW fans would migrate to WHFB or TOW is tenuous.
I’ve seen people point to Baldurs Gate 3 as an example of player bases converting, but D&D has a much lower barrier to entry than Warhammer, so I don’t think they are comparable.
@@donotinteract7851 No, but GW make money by selling models, not by people playing their games. I imagine more people buy and paint models that actually play the games.
Just look at Funko pops. They sell massively well, and do nothing except sit there. There doesnt need to be a means to an end if the end if just to have something cool sitting on your shelf
Painting a rank and file of 30 pikemen was never going to be "fun" for most people though. Focusing on characters and monsters was probably the wa to go, and while some of the range are still available, very few are in store.
I have spent many thousands myself, and never once actually played a tabletop game.
@@franzt8955 Lo... yeah... I got em all twice (once for me and once for my son), but I drew the line at that last one.
1:25:01 I get it, Warhammer Fantasy was not selling anywhere near what 40K was selling, however, I find the answers here completely underwhelming. The idea that the Legacy was the problem I don't buy. To me, that answer betrays a terrible lack of creativity on the part of GW at the time. Feels like an easy way out. Furthermore, at 1:29:15 I find this to be a very weak answer. You don't "need" clean sweep the setting and GW certainly did not "Need" to do it the way they did. The End Times felt like a slap in the face, and following it up with something like AoS was a kick in the balls. The Irony is that they could not have seen Total War saving the day, and now I wait patiently for the Old World.
Another fantastic interview.
Really interesting. Thanks Jordan!
He makes some really valid points… I would only buy High Elves (and the odd Dwarf slayer) back in the old days but now I have Stormcast, Fyreslayers, KO, Nighthaunt and am very tempted to pick up Flesh Eater Courts. The Old World is great but many of us made our minds up about our factions and loyalties decades ago, the mortal realms give hobbyists a sand box to play in.
On a different point entirely I always wonder why GW don’t support their 3rd party companies more: Cubicle 7 did a great job with 4th edition WFRP- I’ve never understood why it isn’t linked on the main GW site. As a game it really brings the Empire to life and might be an excellent way to cement the Empire as the go to faction for the Old World.
Such a good interview. This slots right in with the new “Talking Miniatures” book set by John Stallard and Robin Dews… who I had the pleasure of meeting this summer along with several other GW luminaries having similar discussions but with a pint or two of beer involved. There really was a golden era of Games Workshop and it lasted a long, long time. Heck, there’s probably a golden era going on right now; it really just depends on your perspective.
His explanation on how the AoS game came to be released sounds completely reasonable; it ultimately comes down to how your customers are choosing to spend their dollars/pounds and we as individuals can’t see the bigger picture; we just know what WE want for our personal collection. I always felt like the setting of the mortal realms of AoS was a very calculated copy of Magic the Gatherings Planeswalker aesthetic. That may or may not have been the case, but his explanation of the mortal realms being a halfway point to the true Realm of Chaos is interesting. I like that.
Thank you so much for doing this interview. Imho, getting interviews like this one and making them available to the public is quite important for us as life-long fans. It helps set the record straight on aspects of the company behind the hobby we’ve spent/wasted so much of our time on. :-)
Enjoy these interviews. Will you finishing the history of 7th and 8th Ed? I know they where a lot of work but they where very interesting
He referred to it the other day- it's on its way!
@@SunburntHands thanks
How do you get these interviewees! I’ve been wanting to hear a decent chat with Alan for years. Such an important figure in GW’s history (and therefore mine, too!). Great to hear from him at last, seems like a nice bloke.
It is interesting to hear him say earlier that you can’t let the sales people make the decisions and then later hear that probably the most controversial decision the company has ever made was essentially dictated by sales
I think there's a difference between letting sales people tell you what they think you should be doing in the future, and the entire team having to address the problem that WHFB was not selling and had not been selling for years.
What would have been interesting is to reflect on the fact that Total Warhammer was going to launch just after the setting it was based on was killed off. Given that Dawn of War had a measurable impact on 40K sales in 2004, especially in the US (my US store-owning colleague tells me), it seems particularly dunderheaded to have killed WHFB just as the most expensive advert ever for the game was launched (and probably led to The Old World being commissioned).
@@adamwhitehead7289I’d guess maybe they didn’t expect the computer game to be so successful? There have been a lot of rubbish GW computer games over the years. I agree that it was bad timing though.
@@glyngreen538 If it was another no-name developer with no pedigree, I'd agree, but it was Creative Assembly and Total War, absolutely massive brands with a large fanbase. And Total Warhammer came about because of an incredibly popular mod for Medieval II: Total War called Call of Warhammer, which showed an enthusiastic fanbase and how uniquely suited to Warhammer the Total War gameplay style was. They really should have known this was going to be different.
@@glyngreen538the video game was popular, but how many Total Warhammer players do you really think will pick up quite an expensive hobby when they freak out about paying $30 for a dlc? I don’t think Total Warhammer is the silver bullet that some players think it is.
Judging by GW’s decision to hand ToW to Forgeworld, I don’t think they do either.
Because, and anyone who has ever met Alam merrit will tell you, he is a massive liar.
Mate. You might need to slow down or else you'll have crushed it with every famous figure in the hobby before your channel is even 2 years old! Thank you for reaching out to someone like this - it's very important to see controversial decisions holistically, which you have helped to achieve with this one. Cracking work bud.
Great interview, it was nice to hear all the behinds the scenes info about the business side of things. Fans get very emotional about their hobbies but ultimately they're made by a business to make money, for better and for worse.
This logic for killing fantasy outright instead of just putting it on a backburner strikes me as absolutely demented by industry standards. The fear of splitting the consumerbase of not getting as many people on board for X or Y new setting, thus prompting you to absolutely destroy a setting (and thus destroy interest in the setting's narrative even in the future barring retcons) means you just aggravated a consumer demographic for no good reason, more so than just putting stuff on the backburner. The best example I can think of is Wizards of the Coast, because settings fall out of favor and lose support for editions, sometimes MULTIPLE. Yet WOTC hasn't decided to commission some ten book deathknell for Dark Sun because it hasn't gotten support for 5e as they move to 6e, 1e, or whatever they're calling it now.
As someone who still loves Warhammer but now also works in a corporate environment, it's interesting to think about how there are all these different elements involved in working at this scale that the consumer isn't aware of. It's great having everyone in your company be passionate about wargaming and all that, but unless you're a tiny business like GW would have been back in the 80s it's just not possible, and a massive company like GW does need someone like Alan to keep all of these factors like production, sales, opportunity cost (the bit about how producing WFB units that don't sell taking up space & money that could go towards 40k units that do sell) etc in mind when making these big decisions. Decisions which then get filtered down to the community as "GW killed WFB because they were greedy".
1:38:00 I have a feeling what kept the Empire from being popular, sales wise, is that their models were gorgeous, but _intimidating._ Landsknecht-inspired troops, with cut sleeves and plumed hats. Complicated color schemes. And you needed to paint a bunch of them, because they're low-key a horde army.
Compare this to, say, Imperial Guard in 40K, who have less demanding sculpts to paint most times. (Plus, there were more tanks in Guard, and those were less ornate than the DeVinci style tanks of the Empire. So collectors of Guard had an easier time padding their armies with vehicles).
Even comparing Empire to other WHFB factions, there's many options that asked less of players, in regards to painting skill and time investment. Skaven were mostly flesh color, metallics, and brown. Elves (pick a version) could be mostly one color and still look decent. Large portions of Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings are just bone color. And aside from maybe High Elves, most armies wouldn't mind if the painter was a bit sloppy.
Empire was at the nexus of being very complicated, and being noticeable if the models don't look right (especially the faces; humans notice when human skin and faces don't look right). At least Bretonnian knights all wore face-concealing helmets, and had large blank spaces on their models. While you could get very intricate with a Bretonnian knight, you didn't _have_ to. Whereas Empire soldiers sort of encourages getting extensive with it.
For someone with limited time or developing painting skill, the Empire has a number of hurdles directly related to how good their sculpts looked. It ended up being a double-edged sword.
EDIT: Actually, another point. While we fans of both Warhammer and history obviously appreciate the Landsknecht style, the lay person just getting into fantasy wargames may not. The person whose main cultural understanding of the Fantasy genre is informed by Tolkien, King Arthur, and maybe some computer RPGs or D&D.
These folks look at the old Empire models and think, "They look kind of weird, don't they? They've got tights and cod pieces, puffy shirts and plumed hats. These are the normal humans of the Warhammer world?"
And then they look at all the other factions in the game at the time, and see plenty of them that match their preconceived notions of what Fantasy is. The Dwarfs look like Tolkien Dwarves, the Elves look like Tolkien elves (even the Dark Elves are just "Elves, But Evil"; so, Drow, basically). Orcs & Goblins look like Orcs and Goblins "should look". Etc, etc.
It's the Empire that looked very much at odds with the unexamined expectations for what "generic medieval fantasy humans" are "supposed" to look like. They don't know it's more Renaissance, and that's not necessarily what they expected or wanted out of a Fantasy game. They expected leather and mail, helmets, etc. That they got deliberately flamboyant Renaissance mercenaries puts off people who would otherwise want to choose the "generic" human faction.
This is probably part of why GW replaced them with the current "Cities of Sigmar" range. Made them more in line with what people, then as now, expect humans to wear in a fantasy setting.
And another problem might have been, that you could always get a nice Empire Army made out of metal and sculpted by those Perry twins, who also did most of 4th-6th Edition Empire Army figures, via Foundry Miniatures.
I think this is a really good point about the sheer complexity of an Empire army vs say, Space Marines or Stormcast. It can definitely be an intimidating prospect!
yes 2hrs of glorious video to enjoy on a sunday sweet!! comment for the comment gods
So this is the guy resposible for the kickstart of Kings of War. Cheers Alan!
One lesson that I hope HE have learnt from Warmaster for HH/LI is to integrate the release schedule for each army across both games. The weakness that third edition Epic and Warmaster had was that it felt like everything for all the factions were pumped out in a short amount of time, and then never heard of again.
HE being GW, thank you auto-correct.
Brave of you to share this on the Warhammer Fantasy Reddit, Jordan, they're not renowned for liking, well, anything over there. They're not even particularly fond of Warhammer! 😂
Interesting to hear another inside source that wished Warmaster had done better, I honestly have no idea why that game didn't do better. From the little I played of it, it seemed like a massively superior implementation of the WFB concept and the models were great (albeit not plastic). Also interesting to hear here for the first time that it nearly got a semi-revival until the AoS project developed fully, I'd have loved to try that (I'm all about tiny tiny people, got my LI preorder in), but I can see why ditching everyone's existing 28mm armies completely would have gone down like a pewter balloon.
Hardly a warm enduring character, but interesting insight non the less.
Obviously i didn't see the message at the end there, i hope this isnt seen as a hateful or reductive comment. I thoroughly enjoyed this interview and thought Alan came across well. Feel free to remove my comment in s equally respectable way Jordan.
Did you ask him why they revoked the license for Fantasy Flight Games to make amazing board/card/rp games?
Lots of cool stuff covered in this interview. And I gotta add that Alan has been thus far most pleasant to listen. So chill and calm. I might re-listen this one sooner rather than later. Really good work with these.
1:37:15 something interesting to consider about human armies not selling better. The most played, popular and best selling faction of all three total war warhammer titles is the Empire, the least popular is Warriors of Chaos. Also now that Old World is out, Bretonnians have sold extremely well, outselling Tomb Kings at launch day and half the range remains out of stock and in demand online.
This suggests just how out of touch GW were/are when it comes to interest in WHFB. For me, a decade long Bretonnian player, 8th was the absolute worst edition to enter into, very expensive rules, high model count requirements and deliberate faction favouritism. Imagine my shock having started playing Bretonnia to realise the range was from 2003, featured a downsized roster from 5th edition and imo sold one of the worst model aesthetic downgrades of all time. What GW needed to do was downsize the scale of the game, now they have with Old World and are reaping the benefits.
Hopefully in the future they can explore alternate timelines like Storm of Chaos when the world didn't end and we can see some of those cancelled Warhammer Forge projects.
So, what was the commercial aspect behind the creation of the Undead Samurai range (C18)?
Samurai are cool. Undead are cool. Undead Samurai are cool. At least some people would buy it, presumably. Did they need any other reason?
Interesting, one thing though I wonder how many other people did as I did, found AOS uninteresting and just lost interest in GW, even though I was an avid 40K player at the time.
Awesome interview
The 8th ed empire state troops were hideous. Some sculpts had no shoes. The 6th edition ones were better.
Couldn't agree more. Biggest downgrade of any kit I can think of.
Perhaps vastly overcharging for plastic models whilst suing other makers for ip they didn’t actually own was the issue? Gw got greedy simple.
I wonder if the over Seaze and Desist time of GW will be explored one day, I remembered when they tried to copyright the most mundane things...
Not really. 40k isn't magically cheaper and is still around.
Dude your content is GREAT. More of this please
Regarding the radioactive metal scare, another old employee mentioned it in an interview and apparently they feared that they had been sold lead scrap from an x-ray machine.
A jaunty "'Allo" at the beginning of a video is as much a sign I'm about to enjoy a solid gaming vid as the kickarse baseline at the start of GMG or "Hello guys, Marco here".
Thanks for doing these Jordan, but Jesus I'm 47 mins in and its like pulling teeth! well done getting anything out of him, he definitely feels like one of the none hobbyists who was within the company. Zero passion about the minis or product ranges he worked on. Dunno mate, he just hasnt sat right with me. Anyway, I'll watch til the end cause I love you lol x
He is a bit of a slow talker, and takes a while getting to the point... interesting to hear though that his gaming tastes are actually the opposite of what most people might assume - no particular fondness for 40k, but actually tons of affection for Warhammer Fantasy.
After slogging through it, you're right and he did show a little humour. It was interesting but hard work. Jordan smashed it out the park with this one, I couldn't have been that patient hehe xxx
He definitely came across more as someone recounting their time in a job rather than talking on a topic they were passionate about. He did seem to loosen up a little more towards the end of the interview but it was a long walk to get there.
Everything is framed in terms of commercial potential: seems important, but paradoxically an over-emphasis on commerciality can ruin a fictional universe. Look at Star Wars or other valuable I.P.s: they go through various stages of first creativity and then attempts at taking the fiction and using it to justify sales. I understand Alan’s view related to needing a new start, both creatively and financially, but throughout these interviews it still doesn’t make sense to literally ‘blow up’ your prior efforts to do so. Alan seems to have been working somewhat with the hand he was dealt as best he could. Outstanding work, Jordan- thank you for asking these questions so we can understand the thought process behind the execution. Literally. 😂
Well put. Being 'uncommercial' is paradoxically quite a marketable virtue if you know your customer and are thinking long term. Things which appeal only to a few often REALLY appeal those few, and those customers will stick around forever.
Jes Goodwin's original Eldar Aspect Warriors range: Probably some of the best design/concept GW ever produced imho.
GW should have kept doing specialist game systems imho, keep diversifying instead of stultifying and narrowing. Yes growth of one game was good but it needs to put some of the returns into incubating new systems that may break-out... Long-term strategy would have been better imho.
GW did bad and i held him a bit responsible for it
Interesting interview, but, he…talks…really…slowly…&…it…grates…on…my…nerves.
It was such a refreshing change when you asked questions! Thanks for producing the best WH content Jordan 🫡
Meanwhile this was my favourite interview thus far due to his calm demeanor.
I was struggling with Alan's speech pattern as well but found that it's much more coherent if watched at x1.5 speed.
Fantastic interview. Still, in many ways, I'm glad that he's no longer with the company. Profit should not be the only driving force of every product. The word symbiosis was perfect. Without Tyranids etc, you'd have no one for the beloved Space Marines to fight. In order to have a healthy company you need more than just profitable items. Events don't usually turn a huge profit but have hidden gains. Secondary games lead to new loyal customers. I work for a company that makes most of it's money from theme parks, but can take risks because of this, and can indulge in secondary ventures that have hidden gains.
I'm Alan Merrett too!
Jordan, thank you for this. As others have said, you leaving space for Alan to speak is so refreshing. Keep it up!
Justifying the unjustifiable
I enjoyed ‘the giant issue’ white dwarf, but I was a teen at the time with a level of cynicism not yet stoked by a digital community echo chamber lol
And another great interview Jordan
Whfb sold so badly toward the end because they'd made rules specifically to sell more and more models per unit. It became totally unaffordable as a game when a single unit would need four or five boxes just to be viable
Another very interesting interview, loving your content
It’s great to see another chat with a serious person in GW history. I get it was a commercial decision. But they really did WFB fans a brutal insult with this “end of times” malarkey.
Having the rules available online and just ending it (like Mordheim or for a time Blood bowl) would have been preferable. I get creators needed space but to destroy the gaming universe is something many will never forgive even if we’ll try TOW.
Destroying it forced players to accept it wasn’t coming back and thus to pick up the new game. Just shelving it doesn’t do that, neither does having the rules available online/for free. It made good business sense, even if we personally didn’t like it.
In respect of the Eldar guy and the black library books, I think the subtext here was he was saying @I daren't read that because I can't afford the money and time required to start a second army'
^This. Warhammer armies are expensive investments. Both in money, and in time and effort needed to bring them to tabletop ready status. It's entirely reasonable that someone would be reluctant to read stories outside of their chosen faction, because they literally cannot afford to fall in love with a new army.
@@Bluecho4 It is sad though, particularly when it is so easy to collect multiple factions for many other more accessible wargames on the market currently.
Lol. "Like... in some cases.. really insane"😄
Great vid as ever
I always hope these guys realise just how much enjoyment they have added to the world
Cubicle 7 left the Uk to relocate in Ireland due to BREXIT (another BREXIT success story (for another country of course))
The only reason Warhammer Fantasy Battles stopped selling was because Games Workslop’s fault some Armies hadn’t had a rehash for over 5 years ie Bretonnians and even new models so established players could collect new models their Fkd up focus was on 40k and that’s why Fantasy failed and I for one will never forgive them for it 🔥 🔥 🔥
This has been a common view in my gaming group for the last 10 years. I think only now are we realising that It didn't stop, it was just abandoned. I've built the warriors of chaos army of my boyhood dreams over the past 3 months with some patience on eBay and a pile of old white dwarf magazines. It's the best hobbying I've ever done.
Corporations are cumbersome beasts, theres nothing which can be done about it.
Alan mate its ok i can see the weight on your shoulders and regret (1.29.08 ) its coming back be well and know we still love the game back then as we do now.
Fascinating interview! It was really interesting to hear it from "the horse's mouth" as it were, regarding the killing off of the Old World of WHFB, but it makes some sense. I disagree that they couldn't have just kind of shelved it, told the fan base that it was going into stasis and that something new was coming, but that's just my opinion and I don't run a global games manufacturer! :D
Some questions rarely asked: Why did they increase the size of miniatures with the advent of 4th Edition WFB from 28mm to 30mm? Amd why do ALL models from 4th Edition look so crap and clumsy when compared to these both in the late 80s and from Mordheim and 6th Edition WFB?
And was Tom Kirby who started out with TSR UK and even wrote an AD&D adventure for them ever really interested in the hobby?
What adventure did he write?
Together with Dave Browne and Graeme Morris He wrote TSR UK's very First Module UK1 Beyond the Crystal Cave.
Just watching to me Alan Merrett seems very careful with his words.
Got the same feeling. Though in many places it really seemed like "what am I legally allowed to say" kind of carefulness.
Ironically, Warhammer Fantasy somehow feels stronger than ever. Without Games Workshop. It's so celebrated on countless of youtube channels, we have fan editions, we've seen a boom in 3D printed miniatures, we have computer games, roleplaying games and there's even been a huge surge in Mordheim, which I very much consider Warhammer adjacent. Everything with little or no direct creative GW interference. There's money being left on the table for sure. And part of me feels that GW is now coming crawling back to the fandom with 'The Old World' game, mainly for that reason. We shall see how it fares. And how it will be received. The question is perhaps, do we even need it at this point? We shall see.
I am very happy with all the hype it's generated. Fantasy has quickly become our main game again after 10 years away. We will try old world, and welcome the return of old plastics but if they make a mess of it, no bother, we have many complete editions to work with from the past and enough supplementary content for those editions to last decades.
There's no shortage of games that stepped in to the fill the void GW left. Oathmark, 9th Age, Kings of War, Age of Fantasy: Regiments, Conquest: Last Argument of Kings, A Song of Ice & Fire, etc. Even alternate versions of WHFB, whether that's existing/previous versions, or the Warhammer Armies Project's fan-made 9th edition.
By pivoting their Fantasy subset to a "skirmish" style mass battle game, GW effectively ceded the rank-and-flank fantasy genre to other games. Games that gladly filled the void, and have now become thoroughly entrenched. The Old World has name recognition, sure, but they're still competing with companies/communities that have been keeping the torch lit for almost a decade. There's no guarantee people will stick with The Old World long term.
I mean it's probably inspired by Blood Bowl. Blood Bowl goes OOP, fans pick up the slack, eventually GW comes back and finds they can still make money from producing official blood bowl stuff even though a whole homebrew industry exists. Why wouldn't they do the same for WHF? There are a lot of people who seem completely unable to move outside of the 'newest edition', ie even though many people hate 8th edition+ 40k, they either play it or they play one page rules or something, rather than just going back to the old edition. You need to find a specific group willing to still play the old thing, which is why TOW is probably guaranteed at least some success
Money left on table ? Do you seriously expect the vermintide or TWW players will buy, build and paint armies and do tournaments ?
In what world is Warhammer Fantasy "stronger than ever" beyond its video games? TOW was not GW crawling back, it was throwing it a bone. GW plainly isn't exactly throwing a lot of resources in revamping the miniatures beyond adding a new centerpiece model, and is starting off with very few factions to begin with.
Engagement for the Engagement God! Comments for the Comment Throne!!
There's no way in hell GW put anywhere near enough resources or effort into fantasy as 40k. Later editions focused on homogenizing armies by giving everyone and their mums a big dual monster kit/monstrous cavalry instead of leaning into the unique playstyle and lore of each army. And then new army books (for those fortunate enough to get them) started to come out with massively sub par QC and content (background art being missed out of the 8e Lizardmen book and instead just showing text saying 'art here' was one of my highlights). Not only that, but homogenization was compounded by armies losing unique mechanics and magic items.
A whole series of bad mistakes failed fantasy and the huge effort that was put into AoS could have turned Fantasy around with a new edition and new lore and new models and factions.
A huge amount of the amazing models they've released for AoS could just have been released as WHF and revitalized the range and interests and gameplay.
Could have released Cathay or Kislev or Idoneth as new factions.
Move the timeline on a hundred years and change things up.
Nope. The WHFB barely accepted Demigryphs, anything more high fantasy would have caused the fanbase to explode. The fanbase is split between fantasy and historical enjoyers.
ahhhh,, here it is!!! Thanks Jordan!!! Coolest dude ever!!!
I'm just left even more curious about what happened between GW and Blizzard.
I don't think Alan could ever work us out when he came into the painting studio when we were based at Enfield Chambers. I liked him
Hi Jordan, thanks for the interview, I love this type of content. I think that it would be great to have some time stamps because it's quite a long interview and I would have loved to select some parts and listen to them in priority, not being sure of having time to watch the entire thing :)
Thank you. That's a great point re timestamps - I've not done a detailed set, but have now added some chapters for the broad topics at key points
Radioactive models and then suddenly choas demons. Coincidence? I THINK NOT!
Really liked this interview. As I mentioned when I joined the bookclub, I have never really played Warhammer only studied the world. And that was mostly the Old World, and that is what I think about when I think Warhammer fantasy.
Want to learn more about the later stuff, though.
Wait did the Lord of Naggaroth ever get his chariot?
No.
Finally someone asks the big questions!
Nothing ever did come of the radioactive models, I'm sure...
Lots of comic collections behind Alan.
Is that HOX POX?
Alan, I don't hate you for AOS and for killing off one of the most fun Fantasy settings of all time, but I won't be sending you any Chirstmas cards either.
Ditto
Fascinating stuff - great to understand from one of the key decision makers the reasoning behind such a massive change.
I have to say that Alan seemed more than a bit nervous to out and out own the decision, and hope that he doesn’t get a horde of angry nerds after him as his thanks for sharing some amazing insights and history.
Another great video thanks
1:40:42 - I’m not sure why he finds it surprising that the stuff in tourney armies usually weren’t the best sellers; most people probably don’t play in tournaments, so what gets used in a tournament army isn’t really reflective of what the average gamer would use. A lot of non-tourney armies are not min-maxed, and plenty will be built around a theme rather than built to crush everything else. Also, this is a hobby of more than just gamers; there’s a significant number of people that just collect the minis to paint, and those people are not going to be buying to fit a tourney list, they’re buying minis that they think look good or which they think will challenge their skills, etc.
He looked at things wrong when deciding on Warhammer Fantasy Battle. If say Xbox were looking at sales of consoles, games, controllers etc they wouldn't bin off making controllers because they don't make as much sales profit as consoles and games. Good luck having a thriving business when theres no controllers available to use on those consoles and to play those games with. Games Workshop has a product, some parts of that product may perform better or worse at different times, but its being sold to a limited customer base. If customer A is spending all their money on 40k you can't expect them to match that spend on Warhammer too. The customer base will grow or shrink because of the width of options within that product. If the whole product is profitable all parts need funding. Not internal competition between individual elements within the market.
Fantastic interview
Another brilliant interview, and a good perspective on the demise (temporary) of Warhammer Fantasy. I'll never agree with that decision, but I can only speak as a fan, and a business is another beast entirely. Thanks for continuing to bring these fine folks and their stories out to us, Jordan.
There is a difference between developing a ‘commercial’ product, and chasing the ever increasing profits required by being a public company.
I can assure you, after working for decades in both private and public companies, that there really isn’t. Shareholders and private owners want the same thing - return on investment, and quite rightly so. It’s their money they’ve invested, after all.
22:10
{🤔} I _think_ most discerning, intelligent Wargaming Consumers realize that the *_Ideal_* is the marriage of High Creativity & Great Storytelling & Games / " Mechanics ~WITH~ A Sound Business Model which allows the Company to not only be profitable, but to grow year over year; while producing Content & Models that the Community actually want & love.
What a lot of vocal critics of -GW- (sorry) *_Warhammer_* these days is that --GW- *_Warhammer_* is leaning much to far to the later side of: *_PROFITABILITY 1ST,_* Pleasing The *Stockholders:* 2nd *......and the **_Wants, Needs & (simple) Desires of The Community (i.e. The Paying Customer) have been relegated to a Tertiary Consideration at best by _**_-GW-_**_ _*Warhammer Inc._* (& when you add in quarterly prices rises w/ no visible rise in Value or Quality year on year....you can begin to understand the grievances of dedicated / Long-term Warhammer Hobbyists & displeased _Casuals_ alike.
(* See J.Sorcery Interview w/ Corporate Mako Shark _Ex *CEO Mark Wells)*
⚔🐉
"We never willingly put any effort into anything we didn't think was going to sell" - makes sense, and seems pretty much in line with their history from the outset.
Thank you Jordan for this enlightening interview and to Alan for his thoughts. I think WHFB had some big mechanical problems that got in the way of enjoyable hobbying: most of all the cagey and stressful movement phase where you'd spend most of every game hovering your armies just beyond maximum charge range, and measuring angles. Moving units, or lining them up in combat to use & abuse "base contact" rules, was a bit of a nightmare particularly where units featured a lot of characters. Armour did very little. Also (las)cannons, particularly chariot (las)cannons, and Irresistible mega spells. Old World looks to have fixed lots of these issues and I hope will be a freer game to play. God's speed Warhammer Fantasy!
Why wouldnt have people welcomed plastic kits of the metal ones for fantasy? How is that not as good as doing something new?
I mean... this interview wreaks of being out of touch with the customer base. Hes a good man for giving his time but it really seems like GW has succeeded in spite of itself over the last 15 years rather than because of anything theyve done.
Imo theyve been sitting on a gold mine for decades and they keep making questionable business choices that seem successful (like AoS) but ultimately is the lesser of multiple possible paths and options.
He said it himself, back in the day they made tons of mistakes. I think the people who managed the company found themselves ass backwards into a brilliant IP and continued to run it suboptimal for decades
Another cracking chat! It's so cool to hear the reasoning behind some of the major decisions and direction changes of GW. Excellent stuff.
At launch AoS was an awful game. I understand it has developed into a fairly solid rule system now, and has been commercially successful. I still hate the setting and background, they just don't work for me. Right from The End Times I have disliked the models - too fancy and frilly. I was very angry about TET, but I understand the commercial need for a reset, this was well explained. The one thing I will NEVER forgive are the ridiculous rules that were put in the initial AoS army lists that effectively made fun of WFB diehards, big mistake. Humour is fine, it's always been part of the background, making fun of your customers is stupid.
...que fan art of Malekith angrily squibbling notes of condemnations with crayons sitting on a way too large table. 😁
While it took me a while to get through this there's some really interesting things here. Firstly, it is interesting to reflect that there was so much baggage around fantasy to keep it going - must have been a real genius moment when Merret realised that the only way to change the path dependencies was a clean break. Secondly, I think this is the first time (albeit) i've seen anyone at gw or elsewhere in the miniatures business acknowledge that part of manufacturers' strategy is to basically create the image among hobbyists that it isn't simply business and that from the inside this appears weird. I think this dissonance has been at the core of certain "controversies" like squatting in the past.
Great interview. It’s a credit to Alan for coming on and to you for getting these guests
Thank you Alan and Jordan for doing this interview. It was great listening to you and learning what was happening inside the company.
Really, really interesting interview.
I remember the death of the Old World as being such a crisis point for so many people. It is interesting that one of the one key elements of a very limited rule set to easy the entry of new players seems to have been forgotten (probably in lieu of Warcry and Underworld). I am glad it happened though. It has opened up the setting to be able to deliver such a broad range of miniatures for the new races and factions.
My biggest criticism with The End Times is that it needed to be twice if not thrice as long.
I love Sigmar's Blood. It was my entry point into the hobby, it's designed to sell the entirety of two armies on a narrative basis. But there's so much soul poured into it by the authors. I want that for the main series of books (Nagash, Glottkin), but also covering some of the smaller storylines. That most armies would have an end-of-days story at the start of Nagash that could have been it's own campaign book (Bretonnia is probably the best example) is a missed opportunity.
Dr Welch said to never nuke your setting (in reference to D&D Hollow World).
1:16:30 where they talk about the end of fantasy
Fascinating stuff.