Cavalry generally attacks the flanks. Rock Lobbas can also attack the flanks and don’t have to be in any danger to do it. Checkmate, Ork Boar Boy Biggins’!
"39:50 Rock lobbers are okay, just a good solid cavalry unit." Legend being so good at the game that he handicaps himself by using arty crews as cavalry.
When the Grom DLC came out, I got a ton of value out of trolls because any cauldron recipes that have the Stunty Ale bonus makes your trolls unbreakable and reduces the recruit cost.
@@rauls9913 Yes, I'm just giving additional information about a situation where the troll units (all three) would rate higher than they do here, which is not always applicable to every unit (some units are always going to suck or be low value). It's fairly easy to get Stunty Ale (sack a Dwarf settlement) so in terms of Broken Axe, anyone playing them is in a good position to get way more value out of trolls than other Greenskin factions. Obviously as they are with no bonuses and playing the other Greenskin factions they're not good, although as stated in the video Stone Trolls can be pretty decent.
There are so many tier lists Legend can make, like super short ogre list, and map lists, and best skin od LU tier list, cutest scaven model list, waifu list...
Legend musta been in a good mood making this video, he’s being awfully generous. A tier squigs, cavalry units not in the trash? I’m imagining him singing his way through the roster to the tune of “My favorite things” lol
To be honest, while it seems generous it's more that he had time to try them to see their maximum efficiency because of the amount of Disaster Battles he had to do with them. Squig Hoppers are that high in the tier probably because of the time he used them in a "crapstack" for a video and because they are a good micro unit, same with the Trolls. The other cases are infantry that is essentialy designed to fight dirty ( you cannot use the Skulkers or Night Gobbos in a straight-up fight, but you can abuse the AI with them to a stupid degree ) or are simply the most cost-effective of the greenskin roster. Really though, Greenskins are not supposed to doomstack ( hell, they are not supposed to be a late game faction either ), unless you go for weird things like hero spam. Their strenght is in early aggression and the use of Waaaghs, which means most of the roster has that taken into consideration.
I totally agree. Tbh I thought tier lists were pretty overdone and pointless but legend has so much knowledge/enthusiasm that they're really enjoyable for warhammer 2
I know I’m a bit sentimental, but I’m still a big Grimgor fan, and despite it probably not translating well to legendary (which I rarely play) I love that you can make Death Pass into an ultimate black orc production area. One turn recruitment of 3 gold chevron black orcs, and under Grimgor they’re almost a doom stack
Grimgor is just a badass lord. It really gives you the feeling of being unstoppable. First time i played him i threw him into a dwarf blob and he got shit on tho :D
I would love a video on “Maneuvering the Enemy”. You’re very good at getting the AI to clump up or spread out or split off small contingents when you want to. I think this a low-key pretty hard skill that you would know a lot about.
Vampire Counts next? The last base game race. Will it go like this? Doomstack: skeleton spearmen, skeleton warriors A: empty B: empty C: empty trash: all the other units xD
I love these tier lists and have been looking forward to the Greenskins one. I really appreciate the effort and thought that goes into these. Keep it up man!
Playing Grom, qith recipe buffs, Skarsnik's squigg hoppers can get to a charge bonus of +132. Not many units in the game can withstand a charge with a +132 charge bonus, even on very hard battle difficulty.
@@retardretarded1145 Well, with a charge bonus of 132, it is almost impossible to get in situations where you let them charge into another unit without coming out on top in terms of trading. I tried this myself and they basically become a wrecking ball. Even Ironbreakers melt away like crazy after a buffed suqigg hopper charge.
Seriously, and you give them some scrap upgrades and suddenly your base level gobbos are shredding high tier infantry. I do think legend missed out on the fact that base level gobbos have really high leadership for their faction.
@@booradley6832 I still have screenshots where I get the game to gives me decisive victory with grom and stack of gobbos and archer gobbos against two full stacks of chaos forces (although I play on hard battles, not very hard)
I think it would have been cool to include heroes and the different General types into these lists. "Doomstack" would mean "always take this one" obviously
I think these tier videos should be more elaborate on how different Lords make some trash units valuable. Azhag and Big Uns, Skarsnik and gobbos/squigs, Wurzzag and savage boys, etc. I think you can just gloss over things like that
Loving these vids, been playing for years now and its really interesting to see how people value different units and to be honest its definitely going to get me back into some factions that I usually wouldn't enjoy. Keep it up man, you do more for the community than you probably realise 🤙
For the campaign black orcs are good against everything! They can easily kill lords, hero's, monsters and cav. With grimgor you can boost these guys heavily and as doom stacks they worked wonderfully for me in the late game on the most difficult settings But B is better than i thought what you think of them
Man, fighting against spear gobo's in early game on VH battle difficulty is pure pain, especially as the Empire. Somehow, on VH battle difficulty, fucking "poor leadership" tier 0 trash unit, meant to be cannon fodder, becomes almost unbreakable killing machine and fights till the bitter end, LMAO
@@processing4426 On VH, your troops receive -4 leadership penalty by default, so that equals 56 base LD for state troops buddy. Gobo with "poor leadership" trait goes from 50 to 60 base LD. Then, you take into consideration VH bonuses to melee attack/defense/strength, and your infantry gets easily wrecked by them
Wow, the green skins are breaking all the rules. Good stuff. Slightly disappointed you didn't do the special waaagh units too. I was curious how they stacked up.
Worst squigs with poison that pretty much require you to hunt them down to get them XD he would probably put them in the trash tier. The only good way to use them is by spawning them with the Big Ass spider of Renown and the special goblin general
Once again a pretty nice tier video, keep them coming that's great content before going to work. I use thematic stacks so for the Spiders, it's doable to get a Spired Riders + Aracknarok stack with the workshop lord you get. But to be frank, it's mostly the Arachnaroks in the stack carrying this army. The Spider riders are pretty trash and just a little bit useful to not fight all the ennemy units at the same time.
Imo CA never should have nerfed fanatics with the recharge requirement. Having a passive cool down is all they need, otherwise you defeat the purpose of the unit in the first place. Also Squig hoppers are one of the best anti-skirmisher cavalry in the game so A-tier makes sense they do so much damage on the charge that they can even beat Dwarfen crossbow and gun units quickly. Any unit that flees from them is dead because they are so fast, cause poison, and their pursuit attack animation is so reliable in making hits they they shred anything they can catch.
@KIDAS the fanatic attack direction was adjustable since very early on in WH2, while the recharge in combat requirement is a very new addition in comparison. I'm not sure how a unit getting nerfed translates to 'it's buffed because it received a quality of life improvement multiple patches ago'.
@KIDAS Firstly, the Greenskin Update went into effect in summer 2020. Since then we've also had both Wood Elves and Beastmen major rehauls. That's multiple patches, which is exactly what I said. The recharge in combat mechanic to reactivate loons wasn't introduced in the Greenskin update. Considering that I've played 3 Greenskin campaigns(1 Skarsnik, one Grom Vortex, one Grom ME) in between the Greenskin update and the Beastman update and had no issue using the directional control of fanatics but didn't have to deal with a recharge in combat requirement in-between combat, it means that mechanic was introduced within the last few months, well over a year after they were buffed. It should also be mentioned that they were also nerfed after the Greenskin update to require a minimum 25% unit strength, which also wasn't initially the case with the the Grom DLC release although that nerf isn't as big a deal if you don't need to send them into combat to recharge.
Again loving these. It is honestly really nice to always get another perspective on the rosters. Especially from someone who really knows what they are talking about. Can’t wait to see the next one I hope its vampire counts for october.
Keep em coming legend. People love tier list! Even if we don't always agree with all the placements it's great to just have an experienced player's perspective to understand the game better.
I kinda see no point in having battle difficulty any higher than say HIGH. Why? Because it invalidates so many of your units while making AI trash units absurdly good. Like skaven slaves fighting to the last "man". But anyway, liking this serie!
VH combat in rome and shogun were still viable but in warhammer 2 it pretty much makes some units absolute garbage and almost an absolute need to cheese certain battles
@@KillZallTheBeast I agree even though I do not play on those difficulities. Then again Legend's unit roster tier vids are clear evidence of that as well. So many interesting units are weak or garbage on VH. Makes game less interesting by a lot :-(.
Legend I'm not sure you're aware but the night goblin fanatic's spinning loon abilites was nerfed last patch that requires them to be in melee for 15 seconds before being able to be used (this includes the archers), I was expecting them to be lower because of this
Goblin archers are a must have in every single campaign that should rate them higher imo. Not saying that they're a good unit but they are one of the most useful units in a campaign.
Been learning a lot with this serie. I was wondering, how about sorting the unit cards at the bottom before the video, so you don't have to look around and wonder if you missed some as you're doing the tier evaluation ?
Rock Lobbers are amazing against dwarfs Also trolls have an issue where a lot of the models will just sit idle if you’re not constantly making them engage
Trolls need to be knees deep in goblins. Just charge them in after the gobbos engage. The enemy will mostly attack the more numerous goblins keeping the trolls high health & morale for most of the engagement. If the gobbos start melting pull the trolls back and recharge. Trolls suck when unaccompanied so give them handlers and watch them shine. Granted I don't play on legendary diff, but the troll/gobbo combo is based on games physics, not stats, so I still think it'll work. River trolls debuf + night gobbi poison debuff plays nice together. The compact frontline of 6 gobs + 6 trolls makes the AI blob a little so foot of Gork has nice targets. All of these things combined, what's not to like? Great video as always, Legend.
Once again, I ask that you please include heroes and their mounted variants. And Ogres too. Their usefulness only matters within each individual roster, and so these videos are the best place to discuss them. A mounted hero can turn a meh mount into something epic, or not much of a difference at all, so it does matter.
i was also so surprised about how well nasty skulkers worked. esp pairing them with the spider shrine shaman, so you have this one objectively good unit in all the mess. ngl, i like the spiders bcos they are cute and fluffy, everything a girl could wish for, but that price is really killing me on higher difficulties. tho when playing as grom there is that one ingredient that gives you the lava spider archers i think? (it was a long time since i played) and i find them really effective emergency unit. not exactly strong but you can have a huge stock of them and they're easy to replenish. Most of those waagh units i hesitate to use bcos i don't complete that many of them in one campaign, but those spider archers can be just spammed without any concern that you're going to run out of them
I know it's a ton of units and work but covering all of the Regiments of Renown would be fascinating! Maybe do them all in one video but rate them based on how they perform in their respective faction. Like I'd love to know if Logey Bogey's Spore 'Sploda's are better or worse in your eyes than the regular Pump Wagons. Great vid Legend!
Squig hoppers in A tier makes me so fucking happy. Haven't played legendary with skarsnik yet, but on hard i've had them beat demigryphs and still be at half hp. 100+ charge bonus aint no laughing matter. Easily the most fun unit to play around with
How about adding Heroes and Lords in the tier List ? They are part of the unit roster as well. For lords, it would be only for their value on the battlefield as a fighter. Would be good to give some light to generic lords, which they Never really had on this channel
Well that's just dumb because then you wouldn't need units at all,everything falls in comparison with fully upgraded best equipment lvl 40 lords and heroes,lords and heroes should get their own tierlist,you can make them too powerful it gets boring in battles and on campaign map. What archer or monster units have on some lvl 40 wizard that deletes armies by themselves?Absolutely nothing. It's not worth just making a tier above that's named ,,godlike" and put them all there at the start.
Sure, lords and heroes are part of the roster, but given that you gotta level them up, and gear them, it often depends on the faction, and honestly I don't think lords and heroes belong in a unit tier list. Maybe in a different tier list, and even then, the lords are pointless, you need a lord in your army, they command it, so the only thing you'd be doing is comparing lord choices, which most every time the caster lords would be the best choice. It's fairly pointless cause you know heroes are fairly good regardless. Tomb King heroes are very good, you are gonna need every one you can get, but you only get so many. Dark Elves, the Khainite assassin and Masters are key to your economic power, Death Hags are pretty good in battle, and sorcerers are always nice. High elves, mages are both good in battle and key to economic power, loremasters are great if spammed in the same army. Vamp Counts, well Vampire heroes are downright busted at times, so yeah always get them. There's nothing to really rank, each have their uses, you often don't neglect any hero choice you can get, it's just a matter of whether you think their use is something you value or not.
For Trolls and their leadership, have you considered their low leadership as a strength? The way it was explained to me is their insane charge and weapon strength has them do pretty insane damage, and then they're likely to break first. But if they break early, basically you're allowing them to retreat to regenerate more HP and if it is still early, the enemy will likely not be able to afford to chase after them. I've seen them explained like that to me and it works surprisingly well. They mesh into your frontline to meatslap enemy frontline, then they break and go behind your frontline and are regenerating the entire time.
I have mostly playes using Orcs. Now I feel I need to play with only goblins. keep these up!! I would love a Vampire Counts Unit Roster, even if Skeles are the only S tier :D.
What a funky but honestly accurate tierlist. Once I learned orcs suck and gobos rock greenskins got more fun. Definitely should watch that orc stream though.
After the faction tier lists, maybe you could do a hero tier list? Might be able to fit it into 1 or 2 videos but would be handy knowing what heroes are better in battles or on campaign maps, or if they're avoidable in the first place
I know its kind of late, but Thank you for Tier lists, really enjoying them! Also if you have an issue with same unit card units, just photoshop F(Fanatic) or something to distinguish them.
Big uns seems to work a lot better with the armor upgrade. For some reason just that extra big of armor makes them much, much better at holding frontlines. Not quite as good as black orcs, are at holding ground, but still pretty tanky and much cheaper. Came in useful for holding off Ungrims constant barrages of slayers
In later campaigns for the greenskins, everything changes. Savage Orc Big 'Uns are no longer expensive and can be recruited in one turn thanks to technology. And they come to the fore as a strong, fast infantry-sweeping MAIN A-click unit. Automatic battle calculation loves them. And after losses, you can always quickly patch them up through a raid, or hire new ones. I apologize if anything was unclear due to the translation into English.
Cool video, Legend. Could you maybe make a Tier list errata video at some point? A video where you review some of your biggest change of opinion for an unit based on new information you gathered with those videos? Just a few hand-picked tier update for units that deserve a different tier than your initial rating
I think the goblin archer fanatic is worth it if you’re someone who wants archers. If for some reason the enemy catches you (lapse of micro, cavalry, etc.) the unit isn’t useless. 1 spinning loon set loose can do a hell of a lot of damage. Enough to possibly break the unit, or escape. The alternate version would just be a loss. You should do a heroes tier list.
Squig Hoppers are extremely strong in Skarsnik's early game dealing with Clan Angrund and pretty much any other dwarf. I've had very good results dispersing them and then waiting for the AI to leave something isolated. Definitely A tier, not B (if not S). Seems like they'd pair well with skulkers, as they can run away from stuff easily enough and lure things into ambush or distract the rest of the army.
I have never had good luck with Greenskins in campaign. Though from watching Legend and this list I realize I was playing them wrong. I have to go back and try playing them again someday with this knowledge.
heres an idea for a potential video, rather than doing a faction tier list based on how powerful they are, maybe try doing a faction tier list based on how fun they are to play?
Watching this after watching Legend's "This doomstack is too dumb to die", and his comments about River Trolls in this video just don't seem to fit. Either he forgot about that video or he's discovered some issue not mentioned here.
I'm really looking forward to how this tier list changes for Warhammer 3. With melee infantry being so much more viable now, it upends most of what determined the TWW2 tier lists.
I actually really like the spider rider archers. Not in the main force, but in a support crap stack. Flank the enemy artillery with a melee charge, then plink at their infantry. Poison can make a real difference in a lot of situations. Or maybe I'm deluding myself because I just really like spiders.
Squig hoppers is the single worthy cav for orcs imo, they are amazing ! I assume it’s considered monster cavalry ingame, it still cav nonetheless… and 82speed is decent. They take dmg quite fast tho, but they are definitely a A tier unit, deal dmg pretty fast, and are great to run down broken units. Way above any other cavalry orcs have, I never recruit others orc cav in legendary. Too bad it requires a separate building, but to get decent cav, I think it’s worthy. Squig herds suck in comparison, but just to get Squig Hoppers, the building is still worthy (on minor settlement). Note: it’s not monster cav, it’s just cavalry as well, my bad. So definitely best orc cav in their entire roster.
Hi Legend, will you redo these tierlists anytime in the future for warhammer 3? Surely some things remain unchanged, but now that the AI cheats for melee units are not that horrendous anymore, surely there are many changes in the tier for melee units... For example, maybe those big' uns can finally get out of the trash can XD. I really love your your tier lists and your explanation.. These nasty skulkers, for example, went totally under my radar, didn't know they are so good! Keep up the good work, sir.
he's remade tier lists/changed his mind on rankings in the past, and they're the most watched content on his channel, so i'd expect probably at least once the first few patches and DLCs are out for W3 he'll make one again. Timing is difficlt though, as if he makes one too early then it might be already obsolete if some other faction comes along that directly counters them for example. these tier lists are made pretty much entirely for vh/vh difficulty and are about total efficiency, and in W2 melee were super underperforming at high difficulties, especially the low leadership ones like the greenskins. now that W3 has made melee units at least a bit more viable for 'doomstacks' or at least a go to unit for high difficulty players, I'd say go ahead and disregard every tier list posted before W3 concerning melee units. *Most* of the ranged unit rankings are probably still accurate, but there have been stat tweaks too.
Nothing's sadder than having a highest tier infantry unit losing half 3/4 HP against some 300 gold gobbos. Until now, the only ones who did not disappoint me like others are the ironbreakers and black orcs.
I like the list, but I think you're discounting Spider Rider Archers a bit too much and I'd probably put them in C (maybe B before the poison nerf). What's nice about them is if you just have the one in your army, you can use it's ranged attack as an on-demand debuff for any suboptimal engagements. They can also be pretty useful for kiting some of the late-game monster threats. Kind of a similar principle to your argument in favor of River Trolls.
I remember having trouble with goblin archers in sieges, in that their short range made it difficult to shoot onto the walls. Night Goblin Archers were okay when you gave them scrap upgrade to increase range, but that just put them at the same range as orc archers and was a really expensive use of scrap. I ended up preferring orc archers just for the range.
I highly agree with nasty skulkers being S tier. Amazing crapstack material. They are phenomenal during the broken axe campaign with Grom's bonuses from the cauldron
Something I think is worth mentioning about doom divers. In my experience, sometimes they can be -too- accurate with their homing shots. The issue I've ran into with them in the past is if you have multiple doom divers all shooting the same unit of infantry, a lot of their shots will land on exactly the same spot which absolutely negates all the damage of the later hits. As an example, if you fire 8 doom divers at a unit of spearmen, the first will do full damage, the second will do far less since most enemies in that location are dead, and then 3,4,5,6,7,8 all just keep landing on the same location and do basically zero damage. The solution to this is to just have them fire as multiple enemies rather then funneling all your shots at one target to delete them quickly. Still a super effective unit though!
You should be mentioning either in the video or in the description that the video content represents your opinions at the time of filming and it might change. You've had to deal with so many "But you said 4 years ago that trolls are trash" that it would seem justified to make a point of the fact that your opinions can, and probably will change.
"Rock Lobbers are OK. Just a good solid cavalry unit" I've been using them wrong all this time.
The level of cheese is too great for us mere mortals to comprehend
Hey they're higher tier than boar riders, send 'em in
Cavalry generally attacks the flanks. Rock Lobbas can also attack the flanks and don’t have to be in any danger to do it. Checkmate, Ork Boar Boy Biggins’!
Big gobb-brain time
You just cycle charge with them, but betweem charges you must shoot. Because of low range it has great accurasy.
I would not be surprised to see an orc use a catapult as a type of Chariot unit
"39:50 Rock lobbers are okay, just a good solid cavalry unit."
Legend being so good at the game that he handicaps himself by using arty crews as cavalry.
still better than actual cavalry
lol.
@@L2Xenta 0
"Their Lives are worth Less then the enemy ammunition"- Legend of Total war . Best fucking quote ive heard in a while ahahaha
He probably hasn't said since the last time he played Skaven.
I thought this was amazing too its so appropriate that the game values goblin lives less than inanimate iron balls.
When the Grom DLC came out, I got a ton of value out of trolls because any cauldron recipes that have the Stunty Ale bonus makes your trolls unbreakable and reduces the recruit cost.
yeah but that’s just one scenario where the trolls are viable. overall they kinda suck.
As legend often say, you can make any unit viable given the right circumstances but thats not how he judges an unit.
I also think that only works for Grom's army.
@@rauls9913 Yes, I'm just giving additional information about a situation where the troll units (all three) would rate higher than they do here, which is not always applicable to every unit (some units are always going to suck or be low value). It's fairly easy to get Stunty Ale (sack a Dwarf settlement) so in terms of Broken Axe, anyone playing them is in a good position to get way more value out of trolls than other Greenskin factions. Obviously as they are with no bonuses and playing the other Greenskin factions they're not good, although as stated in the video Stone Trolls can be pretty decent.
@@Krolodin no groms cauldron is faction wide buff
Probably my favorite series right now on the channel. I'm hoping for a magic/heroes tier list in the future. Keep up the good work, Legend!
Magic he did a list long ago
Based on his opinion the best lores now are: Vampire, Life, Fire and Plague
Really liking the idea of a hero tier list. Would also like a generic lord tier list.
Like to see Legendary Buildings/Landmarks. There's some trash buildings and fking amazing bldgs. Be interesting.
Oh yes that would be great!
@@zachrobertson684 That would also be interesting. I fell Legend has a lot of unexplored content with these kinds of tier lists.
When this series is over, I will have a sad.
There are so many tier lists Legend can make, like super short ogre list, and map lists, and best skin od LU tier list, cutest scaven model list, waifu list...
@@emorigio I'm down for a waifu list. Legend has proved time and time again that he is indeed a man of culture.
He should do a tier list of tier lists
Don't be sad it was over, be happy it was there.
Just wait, we will soon have the tier list for all the completed Legend tier list videos
Legend nailing the new content recently, sounding refreshed
I think the break from streaming is doing him well.
Legend musta been in a good mood making this video, he’s being awfully generous. A tier squigs, cavalry units not in the trash? I’m imagining him singing his way through the roster to the tune of “My favorite things” lol
To be honest, while it seems generous it's more that he had time to try them to see their maximum efficiency because of the amount of Disaster Battles he had to do with them. Squig Hoppers are that high in the tier probably because of the time he used them in a "crapstack" for a video and because they are a good micro unit, same with the Trolls. The other cases are infantry that is essentialy designed to fight dirty ( you cannot use the Skulkers or Night Gobbos in a straight-up fight, but you can abuse the AI with them to a stupid degree ) or are simply the most cost-effective of the greenskin roster.
Really though, Greenskins are not supposed to doomstack ( hell, they are not supposed to be a late game faction either ), unless you go for weird things like hero spam. Their strenght is in early aggression and the use of Waaaghs, which means most of the roster has that taken into consideration.
He did a video about a squiq spam with scrap upgrades taking out dwarvesin the past. They work when used appropriately.
the giants drew all the fire away from other units
I honestly think this is the best content you've ever produced Legend. Each video is a gem and helping me improve my TW game. Thanks!
And with the explanations of why he puts the units....i learned a lot odd stuff...even after more than 2000 hours of played game...
I totally agree. Tbh I thought tier lists were pretty overdone and pointless but legend has so much knowledge/enthusiasm that they're really enjoyable for warhammer 2
This is stuff that he talks about on his streams, but it's all spread out. Putting it in one whole faction video like this is awesome!
I know I’m a bit sentimental, but I’m still a big Grimgor fan, and despite it probably not translating well to legendary (which I rarely play) I love that you can make Death Pass into an ultimate black orc production area. One turn recruitment of 3 gold chevron black orcs, and under Grimgor they’re almost a doom stack
Love it
The tierlist is specifically for legendary difficulty anyway, black orcs are still good in other battle difficulties.
Grimgor is just a badass lord. It really gives you the feeling of being unstoppable. First time i played him i threw him into a dwarf blob and he got shit on tho :D
Skarsnik is easily the best. True ruler of Karak Eight Peaks. Gobbos ftw!
I would love a video on “Maneuvering the Enemy”. You’re very good at getting the AI to clump up or spread out or split off small contingents when you want to. I think this a low-key pretty hard skill that you would know a lot about.
the easiest way is using small single entity units, these also take less damage from artillery, missiles and AoE spells
This would be super helpful!
Vampire Counts next? The last base game race. Will it go like this?
Doomstack: skeleton spearmen, skeleton warriors
A: empty
B: empty
C: empty
trash: all the other units xD
Nah mortis engines are also good cause they make the doomstacks even better
Legend said he won't rank according to cheese, so Skeletons will probably be B tier: bad stats, but free and easily available.
Skeleton Warriors will be lower than spearmen: Melee defence
Vampire count doomstack = 19 vampire.
I love these tier lists and have been looking forward to the Greenskins one. I really appreciate the effort and thought that goes into these. Keep it up man!
Playing Grom, qith recipe buffs, Skarsnik's squigg hoppers can get to a charge bonus of +132. Not many units in the game can withstand a charge with a +132 charge bonus, even on very hard battle difficulty.
i love the skarsnik squig rorahirrim
Then they get stuck in battle and die in seconds 🤣 sure thing pal
@@retardretarded1145 Well, with a charge bonus of 132, it is almost impossible to get in situations where you let them charge into another unit without coming out on top in terms of trading.
I tried this myself and they basically become a wrecking ball. Even Ironbreakers melt away like crazy after a buffed suqigg hopper charge.
Grom makes a lot of crap units OP, sadly the other Orc factions can't do it.
Was thinking of doing the immortalz with very high leadership.
Gobbos are absolute units when you play as Grom
Seriously, and you give them some scrap upgrades and suddenly your base level gobbos are shredding high tier infantry.
I do think legend missed out on the fact that base level gobbos have really high leadership for their faction.
@@booradley6832 I still have screenshots where I get the game to gives me decisive victory with grom and stack of gobbos and archer gobbos against two full stacks of chaos forces (although I play on hard battles, not very hard)
I think it would have been cool to include heroes and the different General types into these lists. "Doomstack" would mean "always take this one" obviously
I think these tier videos should be more elaborate on how different Lords make some trash units valuable. Azhag and Big Uns, Skarsnik and gobbos/squigs, Wurzzag and savage boys, etc. I think you can just gloss over things like that
I like these tier lists. It’s nice to kinda confirm what I think and look at units in a different way.
25:02 goblin goblin-riders would be a very interesting unit
Lmao
wanted to say that's how little goblins are created but. mushrooms...
wait till ogre kingdoms come out,there is a gnoblar unit that does that
Loving these vids, been playing for years now and its really interesting to see how people value different units and to be honest its definitely going to get me back into some factions that I usually wouldn't enjoy. Keep it up man, you do more for the community than you probably realise 🤙
For the campaign black orcs are good against everything!
They can easily kill lords, hero's, monsters and cav.
With grimgor you can boost these guys heavily and as doom stacks they worked wonderfully for me in the late game on the most difficult settings
But B is better than i thought what you think of them
Man, fighting against spear gobo's in early game on VH battle difficulty is pure pain, especially as the Empire. Somehow, on VH battle difficulty, fucking "poor leadership" tier 0 trash unit, meant to be cannon fodder, becomes almost unbreakable killing machine and fights till the bitter end, LMAO
“We is GOBBOS!”
They do say "We is better than them"
That's just simply untrue. VH gives them +10 leadership. So they go from 50 or 45? LD to 55 or 60.
State troops have 60 LD base buddy.
@@processing4426 On VH, your troops receive -4 leadership penalty by default, so that equals 56 base LD for state troops buddy. Gobo with "poor leadership" trait goes from 50 to 60 base LD. Then, you take into consideration VH bonuses to melee attack/defense/strength, and your infantry gets easily wrecked by them
@@pocket_sand6645 That is undeniably true, but your statement was that gobbos on VH are basically unbreakable and fight to death, which is untrue.
Wow, the green skins are breaking all the rules. Good stuff. Slightly disappointed you didn't do the special waaagh units too. I was curious how they stacked up.
I do believe you forgot the Spider Hatchlings, recruitable from Mount Arachnos.
Worst squigs with poison that pretty much require you to hunt them down to get them XD he would probably put them in the trash tier. The only good way to use them is by spawning them with the Big Ass spider of Renown and the special goblin general
@@drazarkabalblade9486 They're available from the start for Grom's vortex campaign.
Thanks for changing the color Legend, now i will enjoy these tops the double!
Your tierlists are freakin amazing to watch
Red should be for units which go fasta.
Edit: damn that was prophetic
Been playing total war Warhammer games for 4 or so years and never played greenskins until now and they're quickly becoming one of my favorite races
Once again a pretty nice tier video, keep them coming that's great content before going to work. I use thematic stacks so for the Spiders, it's doable to get a Spired Riders + Aracknarok stack with the workshop lord you get. But to be frank, it's mostly the Arachnaroks in the stack carrying this army. The Spider riders are pretty trash and just a little bit useful to not fight all the ennemy units at the same time.
Imo CA never should have nerfed fanatics with the recharge requirement. Having a passive cool down is all they need, otherwise you defeat the purpose of the unit in the first place.
Also Squig hoppers are one of the best anti-skirmisher cavalry in the game so A-tier makes sense they do so much damage on the charge that they can even beat Dwarfen crossbow and gun units quickly. Any unit that flees from them is dead because they are so fast, cause poison, and their pursuit attack animation is so reliable in making hits they they shred anything they can catch.
The "pursuit animation attacks" are such an underrated aspect of a good mobile unit, this is good info.
@@dac314 Yeah, there are a lot of units that derp out while chasing enemies, even if they can catch up with them.
@KIDAS the fanatic attack direction was adjustable since very early on in WH2, while the recharge in combat requirement is a very new addition in comparison. I'm not sure how a unit getting nerfed translates to 'it's buffed because it received a quality of life improvement multiple patches ago'.
@KIDAS Firstly, the Greenskin Update went into effect in summer 2020. Since then we've also had both Wood Elves and Beastmen major rehauls. That's multiple patches, which is exactly what I said. The recharge in combat mechanic to reactivate loons wasn't introduced in the Greenskin update. Considering that I've played 3 Greenskin campaigns(1 Skarsnik, one Grom Vortex, one Grom ME) in between the Greenskin update and the Beastman update and had no issue using the directional control of fanatics but didn't have to deal with a recharge in combat requirement in-between combat, it means that mechanic was introduced within the last few months, well over a year after they were buffed. It should also be mentioned that they were also nerfed after the Greenskin update to require a minimum 25% unit strength, which also wasn't initially the case with the the Grom DLC release although that nerf isn't as big a deal if you don't need to send them into combat to recharge.
The fact that they need to be in melee to yeet out fanatics is really weird to anyone that played tabletop.
Again loving these. It is honestly really nice to always get another perspective on the rosters. Especially from someone who really knows what they are talking about. Can’t wait to see the next one I hope its vampire counts for october.
Tomb Kings and Vampires soon please! Love these vids!
Vampire counts next please!
skellies S tier and everything else useless! :D
Swiftly
Swiftly
Swiftly! Quickly!
Keep em coming legend. People love tier list! Even if we don't always agree with all the placements it's great to just have an experienced player's perspective to understand the game better.
I kinda see no point in having battle difficulty any higher than say HIGH. Why? Because it invalidates so many of your units while making AI trash units absurdly good. Like skaven slaves fighting to the last "man". But anyway, liking this serie!
VH combat in rome and shogun were still viable but in warhammer 2 it pretty much makes some units absolute garbage and almost an absolute need to cheese certain battles
@@KillZallTheBeast I agree even though I do not play on those difficulities. Then again Legend's unit roster tier vids are clear evidence of that as well. So many interesting units are weak or garbage on VH. Makes game less interesting by a lot :-(.
Been watching your content a lot lately. I've learned more about TW:W than I thought I'd ever wanted. Fun stuff!
Legend I'm not sure you're aware but the night goblin fanatic's spinning loon abilites was nerfed last patch that requires them to be in melee for 15 seconds before being able to be used (this includes the archers), I was expecting them to be lower because of this
Goblin archers are a must have in every single campaign that should rate them higher imo. Not saying that they're a good unit but they are one of the most useful units in a campaign.
Oh boy, I can't wait to see just how high the Giants are, such an awesome unit.
Giants are the best
Always love how eager you are to share your knowledge. Great vid once again.
Been learning a lot with this serie. I was wondering, how about sorting the unit cards at the bottom before the video, so you don't have to look around and wonder if you missed some as you're doing the tier evaluation ?
Rock Lobbers are amazing against dwarfs
Also trolls have an issue where a lot of the models will just sit idle if you’re not constantly making them engage
Trolls need to be knees deep in goblins. Just charge them in after the gobbos engage. The enemy will mostly attack the more numerous goblins keeping the trolls high health & morale for most of the engagement. If the gobbos start melting pull the trolls back and recharge. Trolls suck when unaccompanied so give them handlers and watch them shine. Granted I don't play on legendary diff, but the troll/gobbo combo is based on games physics, not stats, so I still think it'll work. River trolls debuf + night gobbi poison debuff plays nice together. The compact frontline of 6 gobs + 6 trolls makes the AI blob a little so foot of Gork has nice targets. All of these things combined, what's not to like? Great video as always, Legend.
This some of the best content for me. Love your work legend keep it up. You bring out my inner autist.
Once again, I ask that you please include heroes and their mounted variants. And Ogres too. Their usefulness only matters within each individual roster, and so these videos are the best place to discuss them. A mounted hero can turn a meh mount into something epic, or not much of a difference at all, so it does matter.
i was also so surprised about how well nasty skulkers worked. esp pairing them with the spider shrine shaman, so you have this one objectively good unit in all the mess. ngl, i like the spiders bcos they are cute and fluffy, everything a girl could wish for, but that price is really killing me on higher difficulties.
tho when playing as grom there is that one ingredient that gives you the lava spider archers i think? (it was a long time since i played) and i find them really effective emergency unit. not exactly strong but you can have a huge stock of them and they're easy to replenish. Most of those waagh units i hesitate to use bcos i don't complete that many of them in one campaign, but those spider archers can be just spammed without any concern that you're going to run out of them
I know it's a ton of units and work but covering all of the Regiments of Renown would be fascinating! Maybe do them all in one video but rate them based on how they perform in their respective faction. Like I'd love to know if Logey Bogey's Spore 'Sploda's are better or worse in your eyes than the regular Pump Wagons. Great vid Legend!
Squig hoppers in A tier makes me so fucking happy.
Haven't played legendary with skarsnik yet, but on hard i've had them beat demigryphs and still be at half hp.
100+ charge bonus aint no laughing matter. Easily the most fun unit to play around with
Squiqs are sweet cinnamon buns and must be protected
How about adding Heroes and Lords in the tier List ? They are part of the unit roster as well. For lords, it would be only for their value on the battlefield as a fighter. Would be good to give some light to generic lords, which they Never really had on this channel
Challenge is races like elves and TK, where you have so many traits to take into account
I think he can do a hero tier list. Potential traits would be factored into the rankings.
Well that's just dumb because then you wouldn't need units at all,everything falls in comparison with fully upgraded best equipment lvl 40 lords and heroes,lords and heroes should get their own tierlist,you can make them too powerful it gets boring in battles and on campaign map.
What archer or monster units have on some lvl 40 wizard that deletes armies by themselves?Absolutely nothing.
It's not worth just making a tier above that's named ,,godlike" and put them all there at the start.
The problem is that with heroes there are a lot of factors.
Equipment, lords, trait, utility/combat.
Also all mage heroes would be always top :v
Sure, lords and heroes are part of the roster, but given that you gotta level them up, and gear them, it often depends on the faction, and honestly I don't think lords and heroes belong in a unit tier list. Maybe in a different tier list, and even then, the lords are pointless, you need a lord in your army, they command it, so the only thing you'd be doing is comparing lord choices, which most every time the caster lords would be the best choice. It's fairly pointless cause you know heroes are fairly good regardless. Tomb King heroes are very good, you are gonna need every one you can get, but you only get so many. Dark Elves, the Khainite assassin and Masters are key to your economic power, Death Hags are pretty good in battle, and sorcerers are always nice. High elves, mages are both good in battle and key to economic power, loremasters are great if spammed in the same army. Vamp Counts, well Vampire heroes are downright busted at times, so yeah always get them. There's nothing to really rank, each have their uses, you often don't neglect any hero choice you can get, it's just a matter of whether you think their use is something you value or not.
Nice video as usually. Legend are you sure that Savage Orcs Big Ones needs two turns to recruit? i think it's one after the update
for wurrzag, it takes 1 turn
don't know why people get mad at crapstacking with greenskins, not only is it more effective but it's actually perfectly fitting for their lore
For Trolls and their leadership, have you considered their low leadership as a strength? The way it was explained to me is their insane charge and weapon strength has them do pretty insane damage, and then they're likely to break first. But if they break early, basically you're allowing them to retreat to regenerate more HP and if it is still early, the enemy will likely not be able to afford to chase after them. I've seen them explained like that to me and it works surprisingly well. They mesh into your frontline to meatslap enemy frontline, then they break and go behind your frontline and are regenerating the entire time.
I have mostly playes using Orcs. Now I feel I need to play with only goblins. keep these up!!
I would love a Vampire Counts Unit Roster, even if Skeles are the only S tier :D.
What a funky but honestly accurate tierlist. Once I learned orcs suck and gobos rock greenskins got more fun. Definitely should watch that orc stream though.
After the faction tier lists, maybe you could do a hero tier list? Might be able to fit it into 1 or 2 videos but would be handy knowing what heroes are better in battles or on campaign maps, or if they're avoidable in the first place
I know its kind of late, but Thank you for Tier lists, really enjoying them! Also if you have an issue with same unit card units, just photoshop F(Fanatic) or something to distinguish them.
Trying out gobbos right now, actually. Thanks for the list
Skarsnik can boost gobbo spears to amazing levels. I used those and basic gobbo archers past turn 100 it was great.
Big uns seems to work a lot better with the armor upgrade. For some reason just that extra big of armor makes them much, much better at holding frontlines. Not quite as good as black orcs, are at holding ground, but still pretty tanky and much cheaper. Came in useful for holding off Ungrims constant barrages of slayers
Can’t wait for the Bretonnia Tier List when it comes out.
In later campaigns for the greenskins, everything changes. Savage Orc Big 'Uns are no longer expensive and can be recruited in one turn thanks to technology. And they come to the fore as a strong, fast infantry-sweeping MAIN A-click unit. Automatic battle calculation loves them. And after losses, you can always quickly patch them up through a raid, or hire new ones. I apologize if anything was unclear due to the translation into English.
The effects of withdrawal from lack of legend's streams are beginning to set in.. 😢
One of my favorite factions :) these green Boyz, lizardmen, WoC, Beastmen, and the Ogres compete to be my number one favorite faction.
35:31 "Basically use a Troll wrecking ball".
Now I picture Throgg in on a wrecking ball screaming "I came in like a wrecking ball"........
I like the all In savage orc, once you capped out the charge bonus the enemy front line just breaks immediately at least on normal.
Very nice series. Do a Hero traits tier ranking.
I feel like ranking everything on the hardest difficulty isnt very fair considering most people play the game on the normal base difficulty.
Loving these videos, keep up the good work Legend!
Cool video, Legend. Could you maybe make a Tier list errata video at some point? A video where you review some of your biggest change of opinion for an unit based on new information you gathered with those videos? Just a few hand-picked tier update for units that deserve a different tier than your initial rating
I think the goblin archer fanatic is worth it if you’re someone who wants archers. If for some reason the enemy catches you (lapse of micro, cavalry, etc.) the unit isn’t useless. 1 spinning loon set loose can do a hell of a lot of damage. Enough to possibly break the unit, or escape.
The alternate version would just be a loss.
You should do a heroes tier list.
I'm Loving this content Legend, thank you for not making a "Greenskin unit Roaster"
funny tierlist. hoping for Tomb Kings next !
I have learned multiple times to always try and kill Nasty Skulkers first whenever I face Greenskins. They always do so much damage.
Squig Hoppers are extremely strong in Skarsnik's early game dealing with Clan Angrund and pretty much any other dwarf. I've had very good results dispersing them and then waiting for the AI to leave something isolated. Definitely A tier, not B (if not S). Seems like they'd pair well with skulkers, as they can run away from stuff easily enough and lure things into ambush or distract the rest of the army.
I have never had good luck with Greenskins in campaign. Though from watching Legend and this list I realize I was playing them wrong. I have to go back and try playing them again someday with this knowledge.
Thank you for switching the colors
heres an idea for a potential video, rather than doing a faction tier list based on how powerful they are, maybe try doing a faction tier list based on how fun they are to play?
Greenskins are some of my favorite factions. Thank you for all the information given.
Perfect timing, just started a Grom campaign
Watching this after watching Legend's "This doomstack is too dumb to die", and his comments about River Trolls in this video just don't seem to fit. Either he forgot about that video or he's discovered some issue not mentioned here.
I'm really looking forward to how this tier list changes for Warhammer 3. With melee infantry being so much more viable now, it upends most of what determined the TWW2 tier lists.
I actually really like the spider rider archers. Not in the main force, but in a support crap stack. Flank the enemy artillery with a melee charge, then plink at their infantry. Poison can make a real difference in a lot of situations.
Or maybe I'm deluding myself because I just really like spiders.
Squig hoppers is the single worthy cav for orcs imo, they are amazing !
I assume it’s considered monster cavalry ingame, it still cav nonetheless… and 82speed is decent.
They take dmg quite fast tho, but they are definitely a A tier unit, deal dmg pretty fast, and are great to run down broken units.
Way above any other cavalry orcs have, I never recruit others orc cav in legendary.
Too bad it requires a separate building, but to get decent cav, I think it’s worthy.
Squig herds suck in comparison, but just to get Squig Hoppers, the building is still worthy (on minor settlement).
Note: it’s not monster cav, it’s just cavalry as well, my bad.
So definitely best orc cav in their entire roster.
Loving the tier lists! Need a legendary lord list!
Like your tier lists. Hope you like too. Maybe a list of the heroes (all factions)
Should do these for heroes and regiments of renown as well
Hi Legend, will you redo these tierlists anytime in the future for warhammer 3?
Surely some things remain unchanged, but now that the AI cheats for melee units are not that horrendous anymore, surely there are many changes in the tier for melee units... For example, maybe those big' uns can finally get out of the trash can XD.
I really love your your tier lists and your explanation.. These nasty skulkers, for example, went totally under my radar, didn't know they are so good! Keep up the good work, sir.
he's remade tier lists/changed his mind on rankings in the past, and they're the most watched content on his channel, so i'd expect probably at least once the first few patches and DLCs are out for W3 he'll make one again. Timing is difficlt though, as if he makes one too early then it might be already obsolete if some other faction comes along that directly counters them for example.
these tier lists are made pretty much entirely for vh/vh difficulty and are about total efficiency, and in W2 melee were super underperforming at high difficulties, especially the low leadership ones like the greenskins. now that W3 has made melee units at least a bit more viable for 'doomstacks' or at least a go to unit for high difficulty players, I'd say go ahead and disregard every tier list posted before W3 concerning melee units. *Most* of the ranged unit rankings are probably still accurate, but there have been stat tweaks too.
Ahh yes, the early game tactic of cycle-charging with rock lobbers
Truly the apex of the greenskin cheese
Nothing's sadder than having a highest tier infantry unit losing half 3/4 HP against some 300 gold gobbos.
Until now, the only ones who did not disappoint me like others are the ironbreakers and black orcs.
Legend should have commented more on the scrap options of each unit...
Oh well...
next tier list, scrap option comparison for GS units xD
I like the list, but I think you're discounting Spider Rider Archers a bit too much and I'd probably put them in C (maybe B before the poison nerf). What's nice about them is if you just have the one in your army, you can use it's ranged attack as an on-demand debuff for any suboptimal engagements. They can also be pretty useful for kiting some of the late-game monster threats. Kind of a similar principle to your argument in favor of River Trolls.
Another Top vid....Cheers and long may they continue!
Nasty Skulkers got me through the Skarsnik campaign very easy. Recommended for each and every campaign :)
Thanks, going to try out nasty skulkers and some fanatics now!
Strange, I'm hearing a mix of sad ork noises and happy goblin noises somewhere in the background
I remember having trouble with goblin archers in sieges, in that their short range made it difficult to shoot onto the walls. Night Goblin Archers were okay when you gave them scrap upgrade to increase range, but that just put them at the same range as orc archers and was a really expensive use of scrap. I ended up preferring orc archers just for the range.
A year later, is this still generally accurate to how you (Legend) first viewed them?
I highly agree with nasty skulkers being S tier. Amazing crapstack material. They are phenomenal during the broken axe campaign with Grom's bonuses from the cauldron
Something I think is worth mentioning about doom divers.
In my experience, sometimes they can be -too- accurate with their homing shots.
The issue I've ran into with them in the past is if you have multiple doom divers all shooting the same unit of infantry, a lot of their shots will land on exactly the same spot which absolutely negates all the damage of the later hits.
As an example, if you fire 8 doom divers at a unit of spearmen, the first will do full damage, the second will do far less since most enemies in that location are dead, and then 3,4,5,6,7,8 all just keep landing on the same location and do basically zero damage. The solution to this is to just have them fire as multiple enemies rather then funneling all your shots at one target to delete them quickly. Still a super effective unit though!
You should be mentioning either in the video or in the description that the video content represents your opinions at the time of filming and it might change. You've had to deal with so many "But you said 4 years ago that trolls are trash" that it would seem justified to make a point of the fact that your opinions can, and probably will change.