Word ! It is definitely a timeless masterpiece who will always surpass temporary hyped games as Gloomhaven or Roots and such. I'd like to see a more beautiful design, but I'm still waiting for it, and Y&E did not reach that point for me.
It is a masterpiece. I am very, very bad at it. But it is extremly well made with loads of constant interaction and open map info with still some hidden assets. Scoring based on your weakest VP/resource is a typical example of smart design. Not only is that clever but then you can get some wild VP/resource points in a full game....
I think this is one of the best modern "classic" feeling games, that is fairly abstracted with tremendous depth despite a simple ruleset like Go and Chess. I'd also include Hive in that category. All these games share the problem that a large mismatch of skill can ruin the fun for all involved.
Tigris & Euphrates has been out of print for years. I think that is the biggest threat to its position in the top 100. I think this game would stand out in a positive way in the current market if Knizia could find a publisher to work with.
There was a lot of top Knizia games that got reprinted at around 2016 that didn’t move in the brick & mortar stores and then got heavily discounted: Tigris & Euphrates, Through the Desert, Samurai, Ra, Taj Mahal, Modern Art, Medici. It moved from Fantasy Flight to ZMAN and then it got passed around the publishers. These games are fantastic and easy to learn but are quite deep and rewards multiple plays. It just doesn’t have the new chrome feel and is hard to get it to the table.
This game is a classic and a masterpiece and definitely deserves it's spot in the top 100. 5 out of 5. :) Still enjoyed your discussion about the game.
It's likely getting an online release on BGA soon. It was already available on another smaller site and as an app I think, but I look forward to playing it on BGA again.
@@Quackalope I only played it once. Saw the potential, but... It didn't feel quite like my type of game. But I will play it online; I keep my limited face to face plays for games I like much more than this one. :)
Spot on with the colors vice symbols conundrum!!! We struggle with this as well. This type of 'altered thinking' (mind mapping is a GREAT term) is one of the reasons why we chose to get this game AND keep the game. We often choose games that challenge and stretch our thinking processes. It doesn't always pan out, but our style of fun is thinky board games. Excellent video in the series!
I've really enjoyed this game over the years but the criticisms mentioned here make total sense when I think about them. For me personally they aren't an issue but I can see how new players could run into that. Great discussion and fair criticisms of a game I enjoy, thanks!
T&E is a masterpiece. But I have found that it is game you have to be willing to acquire the taste for. My first game: I hated it and didn't understand it. Second game: it was about a year later. Still didn't like it and found it hard to grasp. Third play was years later and I was more matured as a gamer. It finally began to click, but I was still not convinced. Wanted to play it again quickly after though. From the forth play and on it has just gotten better and better. A quite astounding dept in which you see and discover new tactics and new moves in every game. But you really need multiple plays in succession and preferably with experienced players. To sum up. It is a masterpiece that has stood the test of time for a reason.
I love this game but understand the trouble one could have easily identifying pieces ('iconography'). This wasnt as prevalent in the original issue of the game as the pieces were cleaner more distinct. I see this happen time and again with reissues where they want to separate their version from the previous and make these big chunky pieces. But in the process they sacrifice a clean and easy to read board state. Everyone enjoys big, extravagant game pieces but if they have made the game harder to read the game becomes worse for it. The original wood leaders were much better than these large plastic uni-color ones. I felt the same about the reissue of Ra as well.
I managed to get the pre-owned wooden version and was totally happy with the design. Still have very few people to play with but I am keeping this one forever.
As my wife and i set out on the same journey as you two, this was our first game we played on the top 100. We loved it, so you crazy :). I’d totally add this to our collection and play it again.
Watch this last week when it was unlisted, also figured out if I use too many emoticons, my comments get deleted:) Oh well, had the video almost to myself for a few days which felt good ;-) Had such fun emoticons for the three of you though 😁
It would not get the praise and popularity if it was published today - of course. And that says nothing and everything. Many many many of those games that are getting love these days are average or sub-average rip-offs or mega-mixes of popular mechanics with beautiful art, sometimes a lot of plastic minis and tons of modules - with close to none originality and juice. Boardgame market is bloated like any other market these days and people are buying tons of games they are not going to know and understand deeply because they have and play too many of them. Saying that the game would not be successful if it was published today says nothing about the quality or potential of the game design.
When I first read the video title, my knee jerk reaction was to shout heresy - T&E is one of my top games of all time and I would say the game is widely recognized as a enduring classic in the hobby. That being said, I sold my copy and basically only play the mobile app. Why? I would argue the game is inaccessible, opaque and very difficult to teach and learn. It personally took me 10 games on the app before I even knew what I was doing, and every teach is a really frustrating, difficult experience. T&E is somewhat like Oath in this regard - it really benefits from a regular group of players who are familiar with the game.
I’ve got your back Jesse! This game realllly didn’t work for me either. I know this opinion is in the minority, but this would be a 2 out of 5 for me as well.
Perhaps a complete accessibility refresh could help the game carry forward for generations of gamers. Some criticisms would be hard to fix without changing key elements of the game, but the "mind mapping" issue could certainly be mitigated.
Interesting review, very balanced given the 3 of you each had your say. It feels reasonable to say that if your brain is wired to understand the nature of the game play and strategies required, this is an outstandingly good game. But, it may not be for you, if your brain isn’t wired that way. It is widely considered a classic for a reason. It is worth overcoming the initial learning curve, which is not big, it’s just a little non-intuitive to begin with because so many other games are design in an obvious and common way, e.g. all coloured tokens of one colour belong to one army. Think of this a slightly like political / cultural developmental war rather than army war! Does it belong in the BGG top 100.? That totally depends on what the BGG top 100 is, and factually it’s a democratic voting/scoring system based on the player type that frequents BGG. In that sense it’s where it should be. If you had a room of game experts who created a balanced set of the best 100 games across all genres it is more likely to be in the top 50 or higher given they would most likely appreciate its undoubted brilliance.
To each their own, that's what makes this hobby beautiful. I'm definitely on the Jesse side with this one. Honestly I probably like it considerably less than he does.
Oeeeh I finally find out how to get your secret videos😁. I have you all for myself(-ish) now😎. The duck🐥 is slowly edging out the muskrat🐹 and raven🦚 🤩 (or he's the only one who still pays me attention🤫🤣).
I can recognize the appeal and why people like T&E, but it also wasn’t for me. It was a little too abstract for my tastes and I didn’t enjoy or gronk scoring well enough.
It’s funny because I cannot play Tigris and Euphrates for the same exact reasons you mention… but my problem is that I learned Yellow and Yangtze first and the rules are ever so slightly different (and better IMO), hence my brain cannot make the T&E connections. I love the system though and don’t doubt I would have grocked T&E if I played it first so it’s hard to definitively say Y&Y would fix anything for you. Another reason to play these games is they are much more interactive with your opponents than most euros these days … so if you get tired of “puzzle solving” and want to come back to a real “game” try Y&Y :-P
T&E is fine with the hundreds of games released since it came out IMO I don’t think it stands out. I think if it was released today it wouldn’t do particularly well
I'm with you Jesse, I couldn't get past the hump. I was interested in Yellow and Yangtze. I think that game does it better and the digital version really helps with the teaching. I would give that one a try. You might like it better.
. . . For me - It is the worst game on the list so far. Of course it’s not horrible - people love it that’s why it’s on the list xD the title and thumbnail say the name of the game, the list it’s under, and my opinion accurately.
Gonna have to disagree here. T&E is a masterpiece of a design, especially in this day and age of super bloated mechanics and 40 page rule books.
Totally understandable :)
Word ! It is definitely a timeless masterpiece who will always surpass temporary hyped games as Gloomhaven or Roots and such. I'd like to see a more beautiful design, but I'm still waiting for it, and Y&E did not reach that point for me.
I also can’t believe this sits at 95 on the BGG top 100, since it is the greatest modern board game design, by the greatest designer.
It is a masterpiece. I am very, very bad at it. But it is extremly well made with loads of constant interaction and open map info with still some hidden assets. Scoring based on your weakest VP/resource is a typical example of smart design. Not only is that clever but then you can get some wild VP/resource points in a full game....
I think this is one of the best modern "classic" feeling games, that is fairly abstracted with tremendous depth despite a simple ruleset like Go and Chess. I'd also include Hive in that category. All these games share the problem that a large mismatch of skill can ruin the fun for all involved.
Tigris & Euphrates has been out of print for years. I think that is the biggest threat to its position in the top 100. I think this game would stand out in a positive way in the current market if Knizia could find a publisher to work with.
I wonder - I would love to see it reprinted with a bit of flash!
There was a lot of top Knizia games that got reprinted at around 2016 that didn’t move in the brick & mortar stores and then got heavily discounted: Tigris & Euphrates, Through the Desert, Samurai, Ra, Taj Mahal, Modern Art, Medici. It moved from Fantasy Flight to ZMAN and then it got passed around the publishers. These games are fantastic and easy to learn but are quite deep and rewards multiple plays. It just doesn’t have the new chrome feel and is hard to get it to the table.
This game is a classic and a masterpiece and definitely deserves it's spot in the top 100. 5 out of 5. :) Still enjoyed your discussion about the game.
Tigris and Euphrates one of the greatest board game ever, it's shame!
XD Quack
It's likely getting an online release on BGA soon. It was already available on another smaller site and as an app I think, but I look forward to playing it on BGA again.
Nice!! Would be open to trying it online.
@@Quackalope I only played it once. Saw the potential, but... It didn't feel quite like my type of game. But I will play it online; I keep my limited face to face plays for games I like much more than this one. :)
Spot on with the colors vice symbols conundrum!!!
We struggle with this as well. This type of 'altered thinking' (mind mapping is a GREAT term) is one of the reasons why we chose to get this game AND keep the game. We often choose games that challenge and stretch our thinking processes. It doesn't always pan out, but our style of fun is thinky board games.
Excellent video in the series!
Thanks so much - I wish I could get beyond it!
I've really enjoyed this game over the years but the criticisms mentioned here make total sense when I think about them. For me personally they aren't an issue but I can see how new players could run into that. Great discussion and fair criticisms of a game I enjoy, thanks!
Glad we make some sense xD
This was #1 on bgg for a long time before Puerto Rico then Agricola then Twilight Struggle, then Pandemic Legacy then Gloomhaven.
Wow - that’s a big bump! Very interesting :)
@@Quackalope it was released in 1997. So literally a quarter of a century ago.
@@Straddllw Still better than anything else that came out later.
T&E is a masterpiece. But I have found that it is game you have to be willing to acquire the taste for.
My first game: I hated it and didn't understand it.
Second game: it was about a year later. Still didn't like it and found it hard to grasp.
Third play was years later and I was more matured as a gamer. It finally began to click, but I was still not convinced. Wanted to play it again quickly after though.
From the forth play and on it has just gotten better and better. A quite astounding dept in which you see and discover new tactics and new moves in every game. But you really need multiple plays in succession and preferably with experienced players.
To sum up. It is a masterpiece that has stood the test of time for a reason.
I love this game but understand the trouble one could have easily identifying pieces ('iconography'). This wasnt as prevalent in the original issue of the game as the pieces were cleaner more distinct. I see this happen time and again with reissues where they want to separate their version from the previous and make these big chunky pieces. But in the process they sacrifice a clean and easy to read board state.
Everyone enjoys big, extravagant game pieces but if they have made the game harder to read the game becomes worse for it. The original wood leaders were much better than these large plastic uni-color ones. I felt the same about the reissue of Ra as well.
I managed to get the pre-owned wooden version and was totally happy with the design. Still have very few people to play with but I am keeping this one forever.
As my wife and i set out on the same journey as you two, this was our first game we played on the top 100. We loved it, so you crazy :). I’d totally add this to our collection and play it again.
Wow, them's fightin' words. This is my second favorite game of all time. The first being Troyes.
Haha xD I’m sorry - it just confuses me.
@@Quackalope haha, it's all good! Figure out which games don't work for you and play the ones that do!
Awesome both in my top 10 as well!
Wow, I couldn't disagree more. This is a great game. I'd play this over pandemic legacy and gloomhaven every day.
Totally makes sense! Just didn’t work for me :)
Watch this last week when it was unlisted, also figured out if I use too many emoticons, my comments get deleted:) Oh well, had the video almost to myself for a few days which felt good ;-)
Had such fun emoticons for the three of you though 😁
🐹 for Alex since I don't have anything close to a muskrat
🐥 close enough;)
🦚 since there is no Raven
Hahaha xD
It would not get the praise and popularity if it was published today - of course.
And that says nothing and everything. Many many many of those games that are getting love these days are average or sub-average rip-offs or mega-mixes of popular mechanics with beautiful art, sometimes a lot of plastic minis and tons of modules - with close to none originality and juice. Boardgame market is bloated like any other market these days and people are buying tons of games they are not going to know and understand deeply because they have and play too many of them.
Saying that the game would not be successful if it was published today says nothing about the quality or potential of the game design.
When I first read the video title, my knee jerk reaction was to shout heresy - T&E is one of my top games of all time and I would say the game is widely recognized as a enduring classic in the hobby.
That being said, I sold my copy and basically only play the mobile app. Why? I would argue the game is inaccessible, opaque and very difficult to teach and learn. It personally took me 10 games on the app before I even knew what I was doing, and every teach is a really frustrating, difficult experience.
T&E is somewhat like Oath in this regard - it really benefits from a regular group of players who are familiar with the game.
I’ve got your back Jesse! This game realllly didn’t work for me either. I know this opinion is in the minority, but this would be a 2 out of 5 for me as well.
Haha, there has to be a few of us!
Perhaps a complete accessibility refresh could help the game carry forward for generations of gamers. Some criticisms would be hard to fix without changing key elements of the game, but the "mind mapping" issue could certainly be mitigated.
It could be made better :)
Interesting review, very balanced given the 3 of you each had your say. It feels reasonable to say that if your brain is wired to understand the nature of the game play and strategies required, this is an outstandingly good game. But, it may not be for you, if your brain isn’t wired that way. It is widely considered a classic for a reason. It is worth overcoming the initial learning curve, which is not big, it’s just a little non-intuitive to begin with because so many other games are design in an obvious and common way, e.g. all coloured tokens of one colour belong to one army. Think of this a slightly like political / cultural developmental war rather than army war!
Does it belong in the BGG top 100.? That totally depends on what the BGG top 100 is, and factually it’s a democratic voting/scoring system based on the player type that frequents BGG. In that sense it’s where it should be. If you had a room of game experts who created a balanced set of the best 100 games across all genres it is more likely to be in the top 50 or higher given they would most likely appreciate its undoubted brilliance.
To each their own, that's what makes this hobby beautiful. I'm definitely on the Jesse side with this one. Honestly I probably like it considerably less than he does.
Oeeeh I finally find out how to get your secret videos😁. I have you all for myself(-ish) now😎.
The duck🐥 is slowly edging out the muskrat🐹 and raven🦚 🤩 (or he's the only one who still pays me attention🤫🤣).
How does Alex not pass out from his speaking running together so quickly?
I can recognize the appeal and why people like T&E, but it also wasn’t for me. It was a little too abstract for my tastes and I didn’t enjoy or gronk scoring well enough.
played it once and added it to my want list. The game blew me away and I want to find a non Fantasy Flight edition for a reasonable amount.
Curious why you don’t like this. Only excuse is if you like Yellow and Yangtze better…
Haha I need to try it!
It’s funny because I cannot play Tigris and Euphrates for the same exact reasons you mention… but my problem is that I learned Yellow and Yangtze first and the rules are ever so slightly different (and better IMO), hence my brain cannot make the T&E connections. I love the system though and don’t doubt I would have grocked T&E if I played it first so it’s hard to definitively say Y&Y would fix anything for you. Another reason to play these games is they are much more interactive with your opponents than most euros these days … so if you get tired of “puzzle solving” and want to come back to a real “game” try Y&Y :-P
T&E is fine with the hundreds of games released since it came out IMO I don’t think it stands out. I think if it was released today it wouldn’t do particularly well
Why is he scraping off the scratch foil with a KNIFE? that's red flag behavior.
Red flag behavior?
I'm with you Jesse, I couldn't get past the hump. I was interested in Yellow and Yangtze. I think that game does it better and the digital version really helps with the teaching. I would give that one a try. You might like it better.
It’s a issue - but if you get past it - the game seems really cool!
Hot take!
XD so spicy
@@Quackalope I'll throw something even spicier up. T&E deserves to be top 40.
99% clickbait :/
. . . For me - It is the worst game on the list so far. Of course it’s not horrible - people love it that’s why it’s on the list xD the title and thumbnail say the name of the game, the list it’s under, and my opinion accurately.
Definitely Top 5