What does history tell us about Brexit?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 พ.ค. 2024
- This week we asked two historians if the past might have any clues for the future of Brexit. (Subscribe: bit.ly/C4_News_Subscribe)
We're joined by Charles Moore, biographer of Margaret Thatcher and Professor David Edgerton from Kings college London, author of The Rise and Fall of the British Nation.
#Brexit
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According to Charles Moore Brexit is about having a properly functioning democracy (8:40). Well, watching UK politics for the last 3 years this is not exactly what comes to mind to say the least.
On the contrary. It showed we have a great democracy defending me from ppl who want to silence me and abuse the system.
@@BatsAndBadgers And who are you referring to ?
@@snowyowel7961 Yet another Putinbot! Hello you!
Even the German MEPs know the truth; th-cam.com/video/jU3TNl8gm6k/w-d-xo.html
@@BatsAndBadgers It shows we have mob rule. Not democracy.
Honestly, all these arguments about democracy.... Democratise the house of Lords and change first past the post elections, and then I'll listen to your anti EU arguments.
because for 900 years we havent needed a supra-national tier of unelected centralising bureaucrats in another country.
@@elingrome5853 the consituent countries that make up the UK have had a supra-national beurocracy for centuries. Americans seem to cope with that situation quite well also. And as for the 'unelected' label, it's usually a good idea to read the manual before declaring you don't know how a thing works.
@@elingrome5853 For thousands of years we never needed the internet. Can you live without it today?
Good luck all alone in a globalised world.
@Open Comments Initiative Just like the UK, The United States IS a union already - but of the same scale as the EU - whereas the UK is a Union that is actually quite small. One other difference with the US, the consistent parts (the states) have more powers than the majority of the constituent parts of the UK (actual nations).
This is very true, these are much higher on the list than the EUs 13% of UK laws.
These guys are fabulous. It's like a comedy sketch, I could watch them all night. They argue so well together and so politely! I hope lots of producers are watching!
I love these videos. They're so much more interesting and informative than the studio-based partisan arguments. In particular, placing two people who strongly disagree alongside each other on the sofa is a touch of genius.
If I'd voted Brexit to secure £350 million a week for the NHS - in good faith & holding my nose about ending up in bed with all the racists - I'd be very cross/confused about this tax rise. Amazingly, there's currently nowhere in the British media representing this constituency
Only the Eu can protect workers rights and holidays more than 2 weeks a year. Obviously tories do not like that
Christiane Coughlan Say that to the millions of low paid workers in shops and supermarkets, to thousands of zero contract workers. Before we joined the eu I worked a 35 hour week 5 weeks a year holiday full sick pay for a year.
Christiane Coughlan So are you saying that a Labour government dont have the brains to protect workers and are so useless they have to have the EU do it for them
Christiane Coughlan EU workers rights like Sports Direct and Uber and zero hours I cant find EU workers rights anywhere
@@Jack-fs2im Workers rights are national and hence different in every EU country. The EU only sets minimum standards of which the UK and many other EU countries are far above. That's why I don't understand why the UK won't agree to them (and several other minimum standards) in a trade agreement since it wouldn't change the high UK standards. The only reason though I could think of is that some influential people in the UK hope they can lower the standards and they don't want that to be limited by EU standards.
The chap on the left-hand side has mastered the skill of sounding like he knows what he's talking about and the chap on the right-hand side knows what he's talking about (IMHO).
Which pretty much sums up the Brexit debate at large. David Davis, Liam Fox, Rees-Mogg and Co - all plausible fantasists, albeit to slightly different audiences. Stand up in a suit and intone with confidence. Who needs arguments. Tempting to blame the public schools for nurturing this wholly undeserved self-assurance, but that doesn't explain Davis (a man said to 'swagger sitting down') Fox and many others.
Ian P More like the other way around. You seem to forget that the chap on the right has blamed a Brexit government for not identifying what Brexit is and scuppering the negotiations. Except for the fact that THERE HASN'T BEEN A BREXIT GOVERNMENT IN PARLIAMENT. Cameron campaigned on Remain. May voted to Remain. 75% of Parliament voted to Remain. If you felt that the "chap on the right" knew what he was talking about, it must mean that you are a Remainer speaking about Brexit from your point of view.
@@PGO_Gaming I'm afraid May had many Brexiteers in her cabinet, including those in charge of the negotiations. Furthermore her red lines were for a hard Brexit, a far cry from a remainer approach of seeking the softest possible deal. Blame the ERG for scuppering her deal because it was not extreme enough for them, if all the Tories had been behind it, it would have passed.
@@PGO_Gaming
I take issue that there hasn't been a Brexit government. Given that the referendum result was 52-48, it might have made sense to look at a softer (semi?) Brexit. But instead Ms May introduced her red lines, 'Brexit means Brexit', etc. and made her government very much a Brexit government - until, of course, it became apparent that the EU wasn't interested at all in giving the UK a deal on that basis. She was very much a Brexit government until she couldn't be one anymore - i.e. without taking the UK out without a deal. The same would have happened with & to any government.
@@robadr13 She took that hard stance because David Cameron himself classified Brexit, as meaning that we would leave the Customs Union, the Single Market, and the ECJ, thereby ending free movement. There is no soft Brexit. This wasn't a Referendum that if you lost, you still get recognized. Soft Brexit means Remain. May voted to Remain, she handled the negotiations as if she wanted to Remain, and she succeeded in a deal that forced the UK to remain in perpetuity. Like I said, there has been no Brexit government until Boris took office.
51 -49 is 50/50 in my book. It's funny how the language always points to 17.x million instead. For me, the key thing in this interview is regardless of who is in power no one has a plan. Saying that they won't know until they get into power is nonsense. If I care about a subject I research it before I'm doing the job. It's outlandish to do otherwise. No one jumps out of a plane without a parachute but here we are, adults claiming otherwise. I give you BREXIT
Because the UK has 33 million inhabitants and 17.x is a majority...
Basic Brexit Thinking.
According to BBT principles the majority can do everything to the minority it wants, without any explanation.
HUH
17,410,742 vs 16,141,241
51.89% vs 48.11%
33,577,342/46,500,001
Is 50/50 in your book.
Firstly before you comment on a very sensitive political subject get your maths right.
Secondly you generally know about the job even before you apply for it and what it entails without researching it just before doing it.
Thirdly Its not outlandish because people do blag there way into jobs and many people are placed into the wrong jobs by hr and recruiters who you claim is outlandish.
Again people do jump out of airplanes without parachutes its called suicide if its in motion or a joke if its not moving .
The very definition of adult is paying taxes and going out on your own. Many kids do that already.
This is 101 goal post moving and deflection.
Devon did you go to the Dianne Abbott school of maths.
@@Greatanotherchannel uk out of the eu now
Maths not your strong point then? Don’t seem to understand the difference in majority and minority, in your view if you had an election and it was close the current government would remain in power.
Professor David Edgerton speaks eminently good sense.
This is true politics
Great interview C4, thank you!
"How can a democracy be a real thing if you cant chose and get rid of your rulers, and you cant in the European Union"...."but you can leave". Now... do you remember how the EU refused to give permission to the UK to hold is Brexit referendum? No, of course you don't, because that's not something the EU does to member states. But meanwhile, whether Scotland can hold such a referendum depends on Westmistir's permission. You see, that's the difference. Scotland would go from being a junior member of a union where it's told what it can and can't do, to being a voluntary member of a union of 28-or-so partners all roughly equal in their powers and free to run their own affairs... like holding referenda.
That Scottish Guy Didn’t they already have one?
Yeah, which was run on the premise that if they voted out, they would also be out of the EU automatically, but if they voted in, they would stay an EU member….only to then getting betrayed and getting dragged out of the EU.
Reminder: Scotland and Northern Ireland both voted to remain.
@@ryancurtis4391 In 2014, the Better Together campaign infamously claimed that voting No was the best way of protecting our EU membership.
Less than two years later, this claim was exposed as complete nonsense, with Scotland being potentially dragged out of the EU against its clear and unambiguous will.
@pammens miss What a load of tosh, how bad must old Blighty be if we Scots are going to RUN and join the EU at the first chance we get, p.s.we will also hand over lots of ports and bases to our new EU Army/Navy friends that will bring in a coin or two. Plus those nuke subs are going to have to go, or the cost each year, till they do, will pay nicely for our integration into the new EU defense force. and you can whistle for any paments towards that evergrowing debt Rump UK has, after all its, not our pound, and its the bank of England's problem.
When Ireland wanted independence from Britain they were starved sent into exile and murdered there lands taken from them. When Britain could not take all of Ireland they wanted Ulster so the took 6Counties even though 3off them did not want to go with them. Is that democracy. It is good to see them get a taste of there own medicine. U
So a voter who voted to remain in 1979, now wants to leave... he changed his mind over time given different circumstances.... funny that
Correct. People changed their mind after the first decision they made was actually implemented, the same should happen here. I'm all for another straight in/out referendum a few years after we leave, once we know what we've actually signed up for, but the first decision has to be implemented first.
Except they implemented the "decision" for three years, but can't agree what was actually decided on, because Brexit was never clearly defined. So isn't it time to clarify what the voters actually wanted? Especially if the government wants to go for a no deal Brexit?
And this isn't as easy as going out and then just hopping back in. Currently the UK can just revoke. But once it has left, it would have to rejoin by the rulebook...and I am actually not even sure if the UK would qualify under the current rules. It would for sure lose its extra-perks.
I also don't see why there is a rule to implement a decision made in an undemocratic, advisory referendum. Before we even get to the cheating which was going on, the question itself rendered the whole thing an insult to democracy, because one option on the ballot wasn't clearly defined.
@@swanpride So you are for a second referendum, I'm guessing?
@@TheShitpostKing "but the first decision has to be implemented first" Why so? People don't want it, and the 1.5 million Brits in the EU who should have voted never got the chance because Cameron is a fool.
@@emm_arr Evidence that 1.5 million EU Brits didn't vote?
The man in the Blue Tie is right. The UK flourished as PART of the EU and was a basket case before it joined
@John A Doe yes but the UK was a sick man in a booming world economy due to Stabilization of world currencies as a foundation for a lasting peace 1945-71.
While even the best economies in Europe are sicker now than us then including the UK.
@John A Doe yes but the UK was a sick man in a booming world economy due to Stabilization of world currencies as a foundation for a lasting peace 1945-71.
While even the best economies in Europe are sicker now than us then including the UK.
"How can a democracy be a real thing if you cant chose and get rid of your rulers, and you cant in the European Union" --- Except that you can! The European Parliament has the power to dissolve the Commission following a vote of no-confidence. I'm still amazed how the basics of the EU are still so unknown.
For 95% of the population ignorance is the standard. For YEARS the English have voted the way their parents or community did without thought.
For possibly the first time politics has been brought to the people in dramatic style in the UK and the last few years has brought into the spotlight how dangerous that ignorance is.
J Mas We in the U.S. are experiencing our own version of mass ignorance in the electorate with Trump. Brexit and Trump will go down in history as the most successful covert campaign against the west by Russia.
@@WA_S_S_AW The UK and the US have the same problem: first-past-the-post voting systems which turn democracies into de facto two party systems that polarize society and divide it into two opposing camps. Politicians in two party systems don't have to come up with good policies to get or stay in power as long as they can stoke the fires of divisiveness high enough to make people believe the other party is even more terrible than they are themselves.
I sincerely hope this country is humbled and turns aside from its arrogance and pride. If Brexit is the path to serious national humility so be it
Egerton clearly has a superior grasp of rational argument. Rational thought lost the referendum. Nothing has to make sense any more and indeed it doesn't, five years on.
Edgerton was awesome. Charles stated that a leave programme was put to the people without a leave Government in place to implement it. That means that the whole of the leave "pitch" was fundamentally and obviously flawed at the time of the referendum.
Essentially leavers put their entire trust in "other people to act against their own beliefs" in order to deliver. This was a manifestly stupid and implausible proposition. If you want something to happen you make sure your own guys are in power to make it happen !
Faulty Brexit plan in Government was like sending a vegan out to get a meatfeast pizza!
We need to see more of Edgerton on TV.
Damn.. watching Charles Moore try to rationalise the Leave position with the usual tired old positions, and getting owned by Prof Edgerton, is amazing if not embarrassing.. great vid!
1-0 to the guy on the right.
Charles Moore, etonian, the Spectator and the Telegraph...David a professor...I know who I trust
In David Edgerton's argument that Brexit is an elite project, Charles Moore is Exhibit A.
The join 👍
Is Johnson not part of the elite?
@@saxglend9439 well, in a weird way you are even right....
@@saxglend9439 oh yeah
just as much as you are a deluded remoaner who believes the guardian.
UK has learnt a lesson for being a member of the EU empire. Simple and what change and freedom to manage its National sovereign affairs
Is a the Master of elite... with Farage!
The so called democratic Parliament can have several votes on the same issue but the people have voted and are not allowed to have another vote??=
Oddmund Haugland Why would we want another vote lol.
Polls are not common in UK. It can be a very decisive vote (like the "no deal" being floated) and people would like to reconsider etc. In Switzerland where popular polls are common they usually have several polls on the same topic. I doubt people who voted could foresee all consequences.
Oddmund Haugland Can you remember, this vote was once in a lifetime, we will respect the result. And if remain win the next one, should we have another one just to confirm, best of three I guess.
@@fluvirus How many of the voters had a reasonable grasp of what they were voting for? Following the discussion in UK less than 50% I would guess. There is no country in the world that has a "No deal" with their their biggest trading partners!
Oddmund Haugland Yes !! david Cameron told us in his speech that leave ment leaving the customs union and single market, I know most people have forgotten by now as it’s been 3 years + but having treason may in power at this time has done so much damage.
The Professor is brilliant. By the way, Charles Moore is a journalist, not a historian.
Britain is having an psychotic episode triggered by right wing fundamentalism.
Moron.
Right wing fundamentalism triggered by fascist Forex crypto alliance,and moving $7,000 for 1 BN doctors and nurses and essential workers each a day,
Cashing in on disaster economics and CURRENCY and stock market collapses blaming poor people and migrants just like Hitler used to do.
This is why there was a world economic peace treaty of Bretton Woods promised to the troops 3 weeks after D-Day for stabilization of world currencies as a foundation for a lasting peace.
Bretton woods United news video on my you tube.
In the comments under the video I explain it probably the best explanation of it you will find because my Aunt working at Bletchley park explained the basics to me as a boy.
Which is what Churchill would have explained to them to make sure no one joined the black shirts perhaps or if they had any silly ideas about poor people and migrants being responsible the people Hitler blamed in the holocaust they would know it was ,a load of rubbish.
And the Enigma was essential to the allied victory.
Which is why Churchill kept them in wooden huts and gave them free tickets to theatre during the Blitz,etc
So the essential question answered it wasn't the people who Hitler blamed who caused the world economic collapse and great depression/happiness.
It was"and we take these measures against speculators of any country of any kind and of any hue.... countries are like ships in a dock tied together by trade and if one falls it can pull down the rest with it,"
Churchill Hansard 1925.googlable.
So nothing complex or intellectual simple facts less complex than plumbing engineering navigation groundwork architecture nursing thee underground system or bus timetables etc etc but dressed up in the most complex way to confuse and confound.
Perhaps rather like Royal Navy tide tables and navigation a crime punishable by death so the mushrooms did not now how to get from a to b and mutiny.
But there is no need for mutiny or riots for extinction rebellion or black lives matters that only aids chaos but simple know ledge as to why the people Hitler blamed poor people and migrants were not responsible is perhaps the key?As it is today!!!☮️✌️😄
The problem wasn't that the UK "didn't have a Brexit government". Quite the opposite: the problem was that May was _so eager_ to pull this through and signal to her party she will do it, that the UK went into Brexit without any uniform idea what it means. Even up to this point, three years after the referendum people still argue about what it means. Triggering article 50 with out a plan was the dumbest thing I ever saw in international politics (and this is a field with a lot of competition).
I don't care what you think about Brexit, but 52:48 is was too slim for a decisive majority in parliament. Especially if you factor in the turnout.
@Albert Pike Good shitpost, Al.
Brexiters do a disservice to Theresa May when they overlook her loyalty to the Conservative Party and instead focus on what she had campaigned for. To her, the United Kingdom needed to leave in order to settle the internal party divisions that had been on full display in the referendum and hold on to their voters that had kept them in power for six years. May's earnest wish was to deliver brexit for the sake of the Conservative Party's future.
Of course she had no idea how to do that, nor did any of the brexiters she appointed to the cabinet. They also knew very little about the inner workings of the European Union, so were doubly unprepared for the reality of negotiating a vast and complex international treaty with the rest of us. Incompetence failed May, not lack of conviction in the cause.
A really great and well informed row
I believe that Martin Newland, Charles Moore's successor at the Daily Telegraph, used to describe Charles Moore as a pub bore. I think I see why.
The single market implied common standards. That was obvious to anyone who thought about it for ten minutes, no?
When I see a shield in the UK that tells me I cannot go faster than 30 and everyone is driving 50...
A scale told me my weight is four stones, three bricks and seventeen pebbles...
I wanted to buy eggs and was asked a Scottish dozen or an English one? And I simply wanted a normal box of ten...
@@dutchman7623 You should have asked for a baker's dozen minus three.
A "terrible delusion of grandeur" leading to "utterly irresponsible behaviour". There you have it in one sentence. Maybe this crisis is a chance indeed to get past that. Maybe.
Good summary....
I’d say it’s a sure-fire way to get past that if Brexit does happen. If Brexit be averted, the whining of the leavers will have to die out with them.
Oh, so because the UK was a relatively successful country 50 years ago without being in the European Union (which anyway didn't exist in its current form then), that means that the UK will easily succeed these days after leaving the EU? That's like a car salesperson who thinks they'd be just as successful if they switched from selling cars to selling horses because, you know, horse-selling used to be a big business. Yes, USED TO.
Selling race horses is a huge market
wonderful discussion each person is listening to what is said
Moore showing every sign of being in the irrational grip of Brexitism. And in ten years time he will still be introducing the 17.4 million into every conversation.
Please note the pop of the UK is 65 million. A third of those eligible to vote voted to leave.
It’s now October 2021 …… I loved the statement ‘the Brexiteers haven’t yet been in government and they may well mess it up’ How prophetic and how true 🥴
Exactly!
Farage is coming....
This professor guy seems to know what he is talking about, but we are fed up of experts, right Govey?
Insidia the ‘fed up with experts’ comment referred to people getting tired of fundamental, political questions of principal being crowded out by a modern belief in economists and bean counters claiming they can predict the future. They demonstrably can’t.
@@DuskAndHerEmbrace13 "I'm sick of my pet theories being crowded out by facts"
The join dont you mean remainer lies and banning the people from voting
What do experts actually know that's more valuable than the experience of living people who are sentient beings of sound mind and judgement.
The join That’s not the real issue. A lot of economic projections into the future aren’t facts at all.
The failure to admit the referendum was fought on a false prospectus from the leaving side and no prospectus on the remain side is the main reason we are where we are now.
2016 people voted to leave but we have not even started to yet.Those who created this problem years ago have a lot to answer for.
SuperBigwinston Cameron gave us an opportunity and we voted to leave. It’s not his fault, it was the remain government that was in power stopping it from day one.
@@fluvirus Cameron now says the referendum was a mistake. At least we got one in the end .
@@fluvirus no remain government in charge now
"Trumpian nonsense of the first order"
I couldn't agree more!
Adam Hulette Trump will help us drain the swamp
chris andrewes maybe maybe not but he is trying.He is attempting to reform the WHO and bit by bit getting there with other org.peace
One Love Trump is still better than the alternatives.Rock on Donald
Brexit is a religion, it might not have started out as one, but it has damn well become one. Those that believe in Brexit, believe it vehemently, passionately, blindly, furiously and regardless of any facts that challenge the validity & voracity of their belief. Brexit is the new god and like most religions & their gods, it’s the cause of division, dissent and sadly, very probably death, because the anger towards those that refuse to believe, is growing. The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it. Never was the Dunning-Kruger effect more obvious!
Charles Moore arguing that remainers didn’t understand brexit is fckn priceless
M R • Well, having diagnosed the interviewer as an erudite remainer, I welcome your diagnosis of me. Thank you for taking the time to share your insight. 😊
That there is no such thing as DEMOCRACY in U.K. 💩💩💩💩💩
@@cinnamondonkey2397 Brexiteers have no regard for democracy. They're like football hooligans.
There is no future in England's dreaming.
@MGazT Not quite correct - in Denmark, we had a public vote... 😄
Democracy only works for one class of people,it has failed many in the uk. It wasn't made to work for the minority in N Ireland from 1922-1969.
@Albert Pike The uk constitution isn't geared towards referendums,the Brexit referendum was advisory and non binding. That's why Farage wanted the constitution changed to a written constitution similar to the ROI.
One party takes the side of people in this issue otherwise the UK would collapse into extremism. Well 17.4 million people voted for Brexit what about the 16.1 million who voted against? That argument really falls short given how close and split in the middle the vote turned out to be. You can be firmly anti Breit as a party and still claim to be on the side of the people. Just the very narrow minority of them.
It told me not to believe a single word that Boris Johnson utters.
For those who are not native English speaker to understand the guy on the left is almost impossible
"We have not had a brexit government" . . . says this guy on the left.... my jesus
Cinnamon Donkey Did I imagine David Davis as Brexit Secretary, Boris Johnson as Foreign Secretary and Liam Fox as Trade Secretary?
He is perfectly correct, because every brexiter has his own definition of what brexit means, no government will represent his brexit unless he himself is PM.
And even than he has to deal with others...
Unless he introduces a brextatorship.
Instead of admitting that they did not have a plan and did not even think of the Irish border problem, before starting the process, he chose to make stupid excuses and play the blame game.
@Open Comments Initiative
Brexit has so many versions and none can even remotely count on a majority support.
The only thing they have in common is damage to the UK economy and that of its main trade partners.
Seems that the UK is unwilling to face the consequences of their own decision, and think that after harming other nations, the goodwill towards the UK will remain. I can grant you that this will not be the case.
@@cinnamondonkey2397 parliament calling the shots?!?;?! Are you on crack. Boris has a majority of 80 seats.
What an incredible gift to be able to say what Thatcher might have thought! Candidates for bullshit of the year awards
Thank you.
Ahaha that potshot at the Thatcher biography at the end!
Prof Edgerton is eminently sensible - got to get his book, clearly
thats the guy on the right? bald guy?
Amazing person
@@saxglend9439 don't like being told what you didn't want to hear, facts and arguments hurt eh?
17:40 Red tie basically says, the Brexiteer government wasn't Brexiteer enough 😂
This is what civilised debate looks like, and we need to get back to this...
You obviously think a civilised argument is constantly over talking then carry on listening…I’ve given up
Classic obfuscation to say the EU were responsible for the loss of British industry.
A historian vs a Conservative propagandist? How is this parity in any way???
British food and cars 🤢. yay
The Promised Brexit cannot be delivered. This is the truth and the only difference between Leavers and Remainers is how soon they realise it.
Guy with the red tie is deluded to the core
‘See that pointless joke of a no deal Brexit being viable’ .....‘I’m familiar with the concept-yes’.....:‘that’s you that is’ ...Newman and Bsddiel reference
"Thatcher sycophant destroyed by professor informed on the subject"
@@saxglend9439 is Moore bald
haha better headline yeah
@@saxglend9439 Which one, the one on the left or right? I think you must mean the one on the left, he is the revolutionary and they always have a story to tell.
@@saxglend9439 I see another right wing nut job, has crawled out from under his rock.
peter oneill and another left wing nutjob wants to be PM.ha
Great program.
Tonight, people from the UK talk about the second world war.... so like every other night
I know it is transparent, even the BBC is running near constant World War II nostalgia documentaries.
Boomers talking about the war they didn't even fight in.
I thought the guy in the red tie was going to burst into tears at one point.
It is kind of rich when someone who lives in a country with a Monarchie which still has a House of Lords complains about leaders which supposedly can't be voted out...never mind that we vote for the European parliament which has indeed the power to do exactly that. Never was necessary to do it, but it COULD do it if it wanted.
May I remind you to the fact the the European Parliament has rejected multiple candidates for the European Commission?
That every member of the European Commission, even the President, can be voted down at any time?
Imagine every member of British government would have to appear before parliament and be thoroughly interviewed, before assuming office.
You don't need to remind me, I know, but yes, good addition to what I said. The people in the top jobs of the EU are way more scrutinized than British politicians and officials are. Grayling for example would have NEVER made it through the screening and if he had, he would have been removed after his first big mess up.
That reporter is trying to intimate that old people voted Brexit because they don’t like foreigners
Not every leaver is a racist, but every racist voted to leave.
Urs Schuerch Remainers only want “White europeans” and are the most racist.Leavers want to reconnect with our commonwealth so you need a big rethink
Poppycock. Brexit is bankrupt, backward looking and bonkers.
Nicholas Warner Labour is bankrupt.The EU is the past.Brexit is our glorious free future.Enjoy
Urs Schuerch remainers are for white racists
No matter what ...We suport and love the British People. From Greece .
The people who voted leave are very Elite so much so they hardly participate in the “real” economy, the “retiree class” 🤣🤣
@dapper patto I'm the same age and apparently people who look like me didn't vote leave too....
Get Brexit done 👌🏾
Question:
Are only those who vote and win a vote considered as the British people?
I'm not against Brexit, but why is it so many pro Brexiters use this language discount the other millions in the British Isles.
Kush 1 Question
Do you believe in democracy ?
@@bobrail733 do you?
@@bobrail733 Yes I do. I am not challenging the outcome. I am questioning the commonly used 'The British people'. Like i said, it seems the only people who British are the winners of the vote. Sounds odd to me.
@pammens miss I am not even gonna get involved in this. My question was solely about terminology, not a challenege to the outcome of the vote. Bestof luck
@@bobrail733 Yes to a degree. Democracy s not a Holy grail.
The Brexiters want to leave as they feel it will give more autonomy more democracy. Yet, so much of Britain is run by cooperations who are not democratic. During the Brexit capaign the death of the high street fearured a lot in what citizens were disatisfied with. The death of the high is down to companies like Amazon, Google and Facebook. Amazon nor the rest are not democratic institutions. So leaving the EU will change some things, but many things that affect us or people who affect us fall like advisers who too are voted into office, fall outside of the remit of democracy.
"History" does not "tell" us anything. History is the way we try to make sense of the present by relating it to a selective view of the past. Or in other words: it is us who tell a story (history), not history that tells us something.
That makes sense.
"... certain political class suffers from delusion of grandeur! Rational arguing cannot establish the falsity of the BREXITeers message…." Well said, David! I guess the UK first has to suffer through BREXIT to really understand the folly of it.
These half-hour Brexit discussions with Gary Gibbon used to be thoughtful and illuminating, but he's scraping the bottom of the barrel with Charles Moore.
History tell us this about brexit: The Romans made nice bathroom floors, but then they left, right?
Good comment.....
Yes! but they also left lot's of offspring in Britain! what i really mean is that the British people are mixed European. I say no to brexit.
anthony How sad...
Hallands Menved you are right the Romans had some very fine bathrooms far better than mine. However I would remind you that most of the population at that time lived in abject poverty.
John Horn. Well, they were also rich in things we've forgotten about.
We're so estranged from life and death, we're treating ludomania as a mental ailment, the rich are harvesting organ replacements from children, boredom is misunderstood as an ailment for which distractions is the cure.
We suffer through empty rituals, their real purpose forgotten, and stare blindly at idiotic reality shows, porn and empty entertainment and our so called progress is eminently expressed by every gadget getting a built in expiration date - usually set a few weeks after the mandatory warranty expires... Abject disengagement...
I cannot understand why the EU is not democratic according to this gentleman. All decisions are done through the European Parliament with the vote of its members. The UK leaving the EU was the best that could happen to the EU. It was a toxic member and luckily the European moved on….not the same to the UK. The UK is not prepared for the terrific situation. It is like, I am great and want to be poorer and in a worse position. What a pity, really….it makes me sad.
If the guy on the right didn't participate in the referendum then he is entitled to be upset about Brexit. If he did participate then he has no right to lecture anyone on the subject as it was clear as day what a leave win would entail.
That old chestnut, the only certainty in June 2016 was 16.1 million people voted remain what did the 17.4 million vote for maybe Farage’s Norway EEC type deal. Nigel Farage: We should be like Norway... - TH-cam
th-cam.com/video/VtNr4z3YrYo/w-d-xo.html
This is one example of many pre-referendum pitches by Farage, Bozo and other lying scumbags who now claim a no deal is what 17.4 million people voted for. If the result was overwhelming say 67/33% like 1975 they might have a point. If 634,751 had voted remain instead of leave this farce would never have happened. About 33.5 million voted, 46.5 could have voted and UK population 65.5 million so 0.63 million is hardly the will of the people. Let’s find out what the silent majority really want round 3 (1975/2016/2019).
How did Tory voters supporting the EU in 1975 become Leavers in 2016??
THEY GOT OLD!! (lol)
Martin Baldwin-Edwards what like the fanatical remain House of Lords.DOH
robadr1 Like the House of Lords do you mean,haha wise up
Of course you can live outside the EU. Just don't expect life to be the same. Expect hardships .Expect loss of freedoms on the continent which sits 22 miles of the coast of the UK. Expect shortages of everything from foods to medicine which means that there will be casualties. Expect that trade deals will be far an few between because of loss of trust. Expect that its the 21s century and it's a global world.
philster611 another fear believer, remember Rory Stewart’s comment recently when ask why in a leave farming constituency he was representing remain, he said he the country would end up being swamped with cheap food. Remainers make your mind up, there’s either a shortage or too much at a cheaper price. Why will medicine be in shortage? Is it the won’t sell it to us? We can’t get it here? Or it suits the remain argument? 22 miles yep of the English Channel there are small mercies in the world.
@@Heresjohn I don't really care what Rory Stewart says. He is a politician with little knowledge of trade agreements.
I would tend to take the advice of those who have extensive knowledge and experience. Rather than ending up in an insult fest I will instead link some videos and papers from the experts. Never forget the reason why they are experts is because they know what others don't. Sir Ivan Rogers is one of the UK's most experienced and respected Negotiators. Adam Posen is considered one of the worlds leading economists .
Why will there be a medicine shortage?
www.quora.com/Will-there-be-a-medicine-shortage-after-Brexit-Why-or-why-not
th-cam.com/video/-PxpHNXIKnY/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/-PxpHNXIKnY/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/WnwhfdZmydw/w-d-xo.html
newfinancial.org/the-impact-of-brexit-on-the-city/
th-cam.com/video/EcIkIz98zXU/w-d-xo.html
www.spectator.co.uk/2019/07/what-sir-ivan-rogers-gets-wrong-about-brexit/
There’s a reply to your Rogers link worth a read if your bored. Yes I don’t care about your Rogers links just depends whether you look for alternatives
@@Heresjohn Robert Tombs is not a trade negotiator nor has any qualifications in economics. He is a Professor of French History and a Euro Skeptic.
It is clear from reading his article that he seriously has no understanding of trade agreements.
Might be better to ask him about the Battle of Agincourt than the finer details of the customs union and trade.
Sir Ivan Rogers has extensive experience and credentials when it comes to international trade. Same for Adam Poser.
Like I said, Experts tend to be experts because they know more than the rest of us. If I wish to know about a certain brand of French wine, I'll contact Robert Tombs, If I want to know how to import it, Ill contact Ivan Rogers
I didn't expect you to read the links or watch the videos. That would require some thought.
So you picking a British civil servant that is our representative to the European as your expert, don’t you think that view is a tad biased. A civil servant of the same elik as one Mr Robins!!! I gave you a reply from the other side which of course you try to shoot down. To me your pretty biased in your choice of expert.
Red tie is mad!
i learned a lot about british dentalcare watching this. sofar and im only 2 minutes in
13 minutes and ive figured out the stiff upper lip. its also based on teeth.
conventions matter more than strict formal rules.... its getting religious? bout 25 mins
25:25 He's too clever to yack on about elites like that. He must know that Brexit was made to happen by people who are clearly "elite" - if that term means anything.
@Albert Pike I think you shitpost for roublez!
David at least has his head screwed on properly.
The one on the right keeps saying 'ludicrous' and 'absurd' . It's a form of bullying.
The "Ununited Kingdom": Can anyone over there agree with anyone else on anything?
@Albert Pike Good shitpost, Al.
@Albert Pike альберт, ты русский провокатор!
Charles Moore really only remembers what a privileged life he had in the late 60s and early 70s. For most people, it was a pretty horrible time/ I certainly have no love for it.
all remainers say is that this is an absurdity, that is an absurdity without ever exaplaining why. why is the idea of the eu not being a democracy is an absurdity? unfortunately remainers (as I was) have the habit of only listening to biased media outlets such as this one and never to opposition media. I reccomend the book "why vote leave" to those remainers who are interested to hear the arguments of the other side
Who elected the House of Lords? Talk about a democratic deficit!
And no the way you are writing everybody knows that you didn’t vote remain!
Its funny because Brexiters like yourself thinks it gives you some sort of credibility but it doesn’t!
You know Brexit will be a disaster so now you are psychologically trying to deflect that defeat it does to your feelings!
I would recommend you reading facts instead of a book!
@@commonsense31 exactly, house of lords is another example of an undemocratic institution. moreover you can't say since house of lords is undemocratic, why not have another undemocratic body ruling over our democratically elected parliament.
"everybody knows" lol . is that so? no I did not vote remain, in fact I didn't vote at all and never said I did. but later it became an important issue to me, so much so that I pledged money to the people's vote campaign by independent. by all means don't believe me if you wish. and before you probably blame me for being a racist or a xenophobe "based on my writing", I am in fact an Iranian British.
oh and you know where you can find facts? books. you cannot only read media that agree with your viewpoint and claim you know all the facts. if you have any kind of university degree in almost any subject you would know that is not how you do research.
Good debate for once
Yeah. Mate what does a Brexiteer want and therefore what does it mean?
Whenever someone or something has tried to conquer Europe, Britain has resisted and WON. That's the lesson.
How do we resist the trollbots wrapping themselves in the flag and calling themselves things like "Johnny Dorset" or "Mike Rychards"?
@@emm_arr You love me, don't you. Every time I post here to excoriate a ridiculous lefty Channel 4 News video, up you pop to reply. I hope you are learning from my wisdom.
@@jasondevon481 "You love me, don't you." No.
"I hope you are learning from my wisdom." Is that what you call those brown streaks you're putting on my flag?
Jason Devon? Are you from pretending to be from Cornwall?
@@jasondevon481 think you've been watching too many episodes of Dad's Army, friend
@@emm_arr Ad hominem attacks are what lefties resort to when they are unable to find flaw in a person's stated opinions. If you don't love me, then stop stalking me, you weird brainwashed lefty.
Yes support us and get us out of EU
Can we have a rematch this time next year?
thanks guys great discussion, well chaired as well
Good debate, guy on the right seemed emotional & agendised, guy on the left seemed far more level headed & logical.
You mean the opposite right? That it’s the guy to the right that are the level headed one.
And the left guy who are just sprouting the same propaganda
@@commonsense31 You mean the dolphin is eating the cats, right?
@@commonsense31 You mean Moore is a moron correct
Northern Ireland voted yes to stay in the EU.
Northern Ireland is part of the UK.
@@johnathanpearson3203 customs border in the Irish sea is coming
And they will be in both EU and UK after Brexit is done
@@saxglend9439 do you understand what a veto is?
@@saxglend9439 There are many potential problems I can see, but I'm curious as to how you think you can get rid of a veto without a veto-holder exercising it to stop you.
Channel 4 to be renamed Column 5
So, how long ago did these points of view take place. Play the game, please.
The moment this interviewer appears I prepare for slick remainerisms.
Ken Barber is that the only argument you have?
Ken, we are all biased in one way or the other, how about compromising
What does that mean to normal people who don't live in your head?
A WPeterson • There is a place and time for compromise but, and I doubt that this will surprise you, I believe in this case that ‘leave’ means leave.
M R • Go figure. 🙂
If Thatcher was only interested in the EU because of the open market, why on Earth didn't she opt for a mere trade deal instead? That's like marrying a person when all you want is a regular sexual partner.
13:00 - The Red tie Leaver basically said the Brexiteers cant be held to account.
What I find interesting with that is the it was a brexit government under May, so far from it, you had a remain PM, Hammond the remainer chancellor, Robins the remainer civil servant basically running the negotiations, Bercow leading parliament, opposition parties remainers. How can you possibly say it was a exit government or parliament, unless of course your the guardian!!
Because the May Govt. devoted its energies to leaving the EU.
I know what you're thinking: "Yeah...but she was a remainer at heart and she surrendeeeeered to Brussels"
i.e. The May Govt. wasn't *your* kind of brexit government. There's the rub.
@@thejoin4687 Absolutely. And so far it's the only government that actually negotiated a deal for leaving. And it was the ERG that undermined her. And look what we've got instead? Humpty Dumpty.
History.. poor man of europe before joining. Yes, we were surviving, not thriving. EU helped us develop to the 5th largest global economy. Brexiteers have already thrown that away. I want to get rid of Boris.. what I cannot on my own. That's not democratic then.. sorry that isn't democracy when a minority makes decisions affected the greater number. EU bureaucrats are elected (Farage voted against but lost the democratic vote). EU bureaucrats serve limited terms. Balanced by EU leaders who are all elected. Sounds as though person in the red tie knows little about the EU. Argument of the Government fails as no government can be held accountable from the actions of the previous. There you go. No government after Cameron resigned has to do anything with brexit.
I expect nothing but ridiculous statements from a Guardian writer.
Cool. He didn't make any.
At 7 seconds in he stated one of the silliest comments I have ever heard. If he was millennial he could, arguably, be excused for such arrant nonsense. As a Guardian writer such codswallop is expected.
Well, that aged well.
A person who constantly interrupts another when speaking automatically loses credibility as it demonstrates a level of insecurity or uncontrollable hubris