Interesting video. I shoot 6.5x47 and have never done the clearace. It is a CIP chamber and I already have a clearance of 4 thousand. (the speeds are terrible) I will test with another 6 thousand more, 10 in total, and I will see the result. I repeat, interesting theory! I'm glad I'm learning something new. New to me!
I agree with bruce, he seems analytical enough to go through the tests. Of course there are other factors such as softness-hardne of brass, slow vs fast powders etc.. but if you have ever seen a combustion engine with a low compression cylinder you would immediately see the engine dancing around due to inconsistent combustion in the weak cylinder. A new engine with the same compression in every cylinder would have a smooth consistant idle.. in load developement we need smooth consistant combustion shot to shot, otherwise we probably get fliers..
I have achieved that perfect carbon ring , i believe it helps. But a lot of factors needed to get there. Clearance, neck wall thickness, hardness of brass , powder charge all effect that seal. I do anneal everytime and i believe that helps. Haven't got big expensive equipment but i try to be consistent with what i do.
I don't know if this is how competitive BR shooters do it, but this is how I resize my no turn brass/chambered 6x47L. I anneal then resize with a full length bushing die without the bushing in it (body die) then I run them through a neck only bushing die that only sizes about 2/3 of the neck leaving the last 1/3 of the neck next to the shoulder untouched. This is with Peterson brass. I haven't paid attention to my carbon ring but will now after watching your videos with great info! Thanks! This gun isn't set up for BR (magazine fed, aluminum chassis) but will put bullets through the same hole at 300 yards if I do my part.
You can get away with only sizing 2/3 of your neck in a no turn chamber, but if you have a tight neck, you will need to size all of the neck or it won't fit.
Yes, I understand that if your going to neck turn the chamber has to be undersized (tight) at the neck in close relationship to the wall thickness you desire, otherwise the the clearance would start getting to big and conversely if you had a tight chamber at the neck and didn't turn it would be overly tight at the neck. The comment was made in your video that you didn't understand how some BR shooters can get away without neck turning. I was just giving an example of how I do it and how they might get away with it. I'm sure it's not the best and most consistent way to do it. @@bruceteel7
@@bruceteel7 I'm confused here. The diameter of the neck in the chamber isn't a factor here. You never need to size the entire neck as long as the loaded case neck size is below the diameter of the chamber. Basically you're just leaving a portion of the neck in its fired condition which is generally about 0.001" below chamber diameter. No turn chamber just means that the diameter of the neck already has the clearance built in for un-turned brass. Tighter neck chambers just mean you'll have to turn them initially to get the clearance but once you fire it you can then just size a portion of the neck without issue.
@@MMBRM Sorry if I caused confusion. I thought I made it clear that I was talking about a no turn chambering and how you might get it to seal at the neck. I agree, the untouched portion of the neck should have about .001" clearance and I would think it would seal. That was my point, but you put it much better than me.
@@rustynut1967 Hey Rusty, the confusion came from Bruce saying you can't size part of the neck on chambers which require neck turning(I do exactly that on the four that I have). Not anything you said.
So my cases seal all the way around and down the neck about 3/4 of the way headed towards the neck shoulder junction. Does this seem normal or ok ? I haven’t been concerned because they all seem to seal up on the necks consistently. Thanks!!!
It doesn't have to be tight to seal properly. You can see if there's powder residue on the brass below the neck/shoulder junction and if there's none then it's sealing. I have great sealing on multiple guns with 0.004" total clearance. The brass is spotless below the neck and there's zero powder residue in their chambers. Now it can be an issue if you aren't annealing your brass and it gets harder and harder to the point where it doesn't expand properly anymore. The reason tight necks CAN be a problem is that if your necks aren't the exact same thickness both in internal variance and case to case then you're going to have inconsistent bullet release because the case can't open up far enough to let go of the bullet cleanly. In my experience this clean bullet release where the neck can open up, seal to the walls of the chamber without interfering with the bullet during the initial movement is key to consistent and maximum accuracy. Tight necks(under 0.002") are going to cause more problems for an average shooter who doesn't ensure his brass is perfect. I know a barrel maker that's been doing it for 25+ years and one of the first questions he asks if you're having consistency problems is can you fit a bullet back down a fired case neck. Having 0.004-5" clearance does not automatically mean your necks aren't sealing. You definitely can have issues sealing with excessive clearance for sure though. The sine wave you're talking about shows up on the neck itself and doesn't mean it's not sealing(You can have it happen on neck with 0.0015" clearance). I have no idea what causes it though!
Sorry but I completely disagree. Without the solid carbon ring your not sealing, you will have inconsistent results. It's no accident I've been first in group 3 years running. With 4 National titles. You can seal a neck with 004 clearance if you run a fast enough powder. Running a slower powder requires tighter neck clearance.
@@bruceteel7 Well, that's the wonderful thing about two adults having a discussion. We can disagree and there's no animosity involved. When you say solid ring do you mean it has to be a straight line around the diameter of the neck? I don't personally try to make the sine wave happen or give it any particular credit but the ones I've seen travel unbroken around the neck of the case. They're just a wavy pattern instead of a straight line. I don't see why a solid wavy pattern would automatically mean it isn't sealing. I'm not doubting your proficiency in long range benchrest one bit. You've proven yourself there for sure. Could you take that same system(gun and loading) to national level short ranges matches and win those with it? Probably not. I'm just pointing out that different things work best for different disciplines. There's noise in every system and if it's louder than the changes you're making you can't see it. It's not just about powder speed but about how much of the neck you size. If you're only sizing part of the neck with a bushing die and the bullet bearing surface isn't below the neck/shoulder junction then the remaining un-sized portion of the neck without bullet in it is going have about 0.001" clearance to the chamber wall in fired brass. Just so you know even when I disagree with something I still like your videos(button included) and believe I can learn things from you.
Wow I appreciate your testing but this is against everything else I have learned in my 50 years of loading and shooting. Now I have to test your method and see what I get . I can tell you I’m struggling with my BRA to get a seal and not soot down the case .This is the second time with BR Lapua Brass . Know sooting or blow bye with Alpha Brass strange there cut to the same wall thickness. Cheers
Yes, if you test the different brass you will see that Peterson brass is the softest, and so you can have a thicker neck wall and still have it seal. Lapua is much harder, so you have to turn it thinner to get it to expand and seal. A faster powder will help too. Alpha is in between the others.
Hi, are you sure you're using the right powder and enough pressure? The only times I had soot on my cases was with a too slow burning powder or very light loads (not enough pressure to fully expand the case).
Very light neck tension or not enough bullet bearing surface in the case neck can cause this too. If the bullet leaves the case neck before pressure builds to a certain level the neck doesn't expand and seal properly. This is less of an issue if the bullet is seated at a jam.
Most of the time it will. Basically acts as an O-RING. It's actually one of the reasons a lot of custom dies are designed to only size 1/2 to 3/4 of the neck.
Makes sense, how many national championships Have they won. I don't see their name written on the trophy either. winners go forward, Losers take right Turns and left Turns and u Turns and run out of gas before they get to the end.
Your videos are so casually reasonably and informative..thank you
I found on ES and SD is with softer necks (annealed) you get better sealing. I anneal every time...
Interesting video. I shoot 6.5x47 and have never done the clearace. It is a CIP chamber and I already have a clearance of 4 thousand. (the speeds are terrible) I will test with another 6 thousand more, 10 in total, and I will see the result. I repeat, interesting theory! I'm glad I'm learning something new. New to me!
Subscribed after watching believe the target episode
I agree with bruce, he seems analytical enough to go through the tests. Of course there are other factors such as softness-hardne of brass, slow vs fast powders etc.. but if you have ever seen a combustion engine with a low compression cylinder you would immediately see the engine dancing around due to inconsistent combustion in the weak cylinder. A new engine with the same compression in every cylinder would have a smooth consistant idle.. in load developement we need smooth consistant combustion shot to shot, otherwise we probably get fliers..
2 to 3 thou smaller than chamber spec is the sweet spot, seals fine and lets the head go without interference, or for me anyway
I have achieved that perfect carbon ring , i believe it helps. But a lot of factors needed to get there. Clearance, neck wall thickness, hardness of brass , powder charge all effect that seal. I do anneal everytime and i believe that helps. Haven't got big expensive equipment but i try to be consistent with what i do.
Excellent video.
I don't know if this is how competitive BR shooters do it, but this is how I resize my no turn brass/chambered 6x47L. I anneal then resize with a full length bushing die without the bushing in it (body die) then I run them through a neck only bushing die that only sizes about 2/3 of the neck leaving the last 1/3 of the neck next to the shoulder untouched. This is with Peterson brass. I haven't paid attention to my carbon ring but will now after watching your videos with great info! Thanks! This gun isn't set up for BR (magazine fed, aluminum chassis) but will put bullets through the same hole at 300 yards if I do my part.
You can get away with only sizing 2/3 of your neck in a no turn chamber, but if you have a tight neck, you will need to size all of the neck or it won't fit.
Yes, I understand that if your going to neck turn the chamber has to be undersized (tight) at the neck in close relationship to the wall thickness you desire, otherwise the the clearance would start getting to big and conversely if you had a tight chamber at the neck and didn't turn it would be overly tight at the neck. The comment was made in your video that you didn't understand how some BR shooters can get away without neck turning. I was just giving an example of how I do it and how they might get away with it. I'm sure it's not the best and most consistent way to do it. @@bruceteel7
@@bruceteel7 I'm confused here. The diameter of the neck in the chamber isn't a factor here. You never need to size the entire neck as long as the loaded case neck size is below the diameter of the chamber. Basically you're just leaving a portion of the neck in its fired condition which is generally about 0.001" below chamber diameter. No turn chamber just means that the diameter of the neck already has the clearance built in for un-turned brass. Tighter neck chambers just mean you'll have to turn them initially to get the clearance but once you fire it you can then just size a portion of the neck without issue.
@@MMBRM Sorry if I caused confusion. I thought I made it clear that I was talking about a no turn chambering and how you might get it to seal at the neck. I agree, the untouched portion of the neck should have about .001" clearance and I would think it would seal. That was my point, but you put it much better than me.
@@rustynut1967 Hey Rusty, the confusion came from Bruce saying you can't size part of the neck on chambers which require neck turning(I do exactly that on the four that I have). Not anything you said.
When you neck turn do you trim both the inside and outside of the case neck? Also, who’s equipment are you using to trim the neck. Thanks . . .
I have a video showing how I neck turn. At this point I only turn the outside because it's very costly to turn both outside and inside.
So my cases seal all the way around and down the neck about 3/4 of the way headed towards the neck shoulder junction. Does this seem normal or ok ? I haven’t been concerned because they all seem to seal up on the necks consistently. Thanks!!!
Yes its good
It doesn't have to be tight to seal properly. You can see if there's powder residue on the brass below the neck/shoulder junction and if there's none then it's sealing. I have great sealing on multiple guns with 0.004" total clearance. The brass is spotless below the neck and there's zero powder residue in their chambers. Now it can be an issue if you aren't annealing your brass and it gets harder and harder to the point where it doesn't expand properly anymore. The reason tight necks CAN be a problem is that if your necks aren't the exact same thickness both in internal variance and case to case then you're going to have inconsistent bullet release because the case can't open up far enough to let go of the bullet cleanly. In my experience this clean bullet release where the neck can open up, seal to the walls of the chamber without interfering with the bullet during the initial movement is key to consistent and maximum accuracy. Tight necks(under 0.002") are going to cause more problems for an average shooter who doesn't ensure his brass is perfect. I know a barrel maker that's been doing it for 25+ years and one of the first questions he asks if you're having consistency problems is can you fit a bullet back down a fired case neck. Having 0.004-5" clearance does not automatically mean your necks aren't sealing. You definitely can have issues sealing with excessive clearance for sure though. The sine wave you're talking about shows up on the neck itself and doesn't mean it's not sealing(You can have it happen on neck with 0.0015" clearance). I have no idea what causes it though!
Sorry but I completely disagree. Without the solid carbon ring your not sealing, you will have inconsistent results. It's no accident I've been first in group 3 years running. With 4 National titles. You can seal a neck with 004 clearance if you run a fast enough powder. Running a slower powder requires tighter neck clearance.
@@bruceteel7 Well, that's the wonderful thing about two adults having a discussion. We can disagree and there's no animosity involved. When you say solid ring do you mean it has to be a straight line around the diameter of the neck? I don't personally try to make the sine wave happen or give it any particular credit but the ones I've seen travel unbroken around the neck of the case. They're just a wavy pattern instead of a straight line. I don't see why a solid wavy pattern would automatically mean it isn't sealing. I'm not doubting your proficiency in long range benchrest one bit. You've proven yourself there for sure. Could you take that same system(gun and loading) to national level short ranges matches and win those with it? Probably not. I'm just pointing out that different things work best for different disciplines. There's noise in every system and if it's louder than the changes you're making you can't see it. It's not just about powder speed but about how much of the neck you size. If you're only sizing part of the neck with a bushing die and the bullet bearing surface isn't below the neck/shoulder junction then the remaining un-sized portion of the neck without bullet in it is going have about 0.001" clearance to the chamber wall in fired brass. Just so you know even when I disagree with something I still like your videos(button included) and believe I can learn things from you.
just looking at the latest results - to be fair - I see other shooters also listed first in group.
Wow I appreciate your testing but this is against everything else I have learned in my 50 years of loading and shooting. Now I have to test your method and see what I get . I can tell you I’m struggling with my BRA to get a seal and not soot down the case .This is the second time with BR Lapua Brass . Know sooting or blow bye with Alpha Brass strange there cut to the same wall thickness. Cheers
Yes, if you test the different brass you will see that Peterson brass is the softest, and so you can have a thicker neck wall and still have it seal. Lapua is much harder, so you have to turn it thinner to get it to expand and seal. A faster powder will help too. Alpha is in between the others.
Hi, are you sure you're using the right powder and enough pressure? The only times I had soot on my cases was with a too slow burning powder or very light loads (not enough pressure to fully expand the case).
Very light neck tension or not enough bullet bearing surface in the case neck can cause this too. If the bullet leaves the case neck before pressure builds to a certain level the neck doesn't expand and seal properly. This is less of an issue if the bullet is seated at a jam.
Hello, since my bushing die doesn't resize the bottom of the neck, why wouldn't it be sealed ?
Most of the time it will. Basically acts as an O-RING. It's actually one of the reasons a lot of custom dies are designed to only size 1/2 to 3/4 of the neck.
On a a no turn the carbon ring is on the shoulder high.
Makes sense, how many national championships Have they won. I don't see their name written on the trophy either. winners go forward, Losers take right Turns and left Turns and u Turns and run out of gas before they get to the end.
And raises the pressure on your barrel. I disagree with you almost 100%