Orthodoxy & Baptism, Pt . 2 ("Corrective Baptism?") - Fr. Josiah Trenham
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 มิ.ย. 2022
- In this episode, Father Josiah Trenham continues his discussion of the Orthodox Christian understanding of the mystery (sacrament) of baptism.
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This is the sixth episode from my interview with Orthodox Archpriest, theologian, author, publisher, and podcaster, Fr. Josiah Trenham. Fr. Josiah is pastor of St. Andrew Orthodox Church in Riverside, CA. He received his PhD in Theology from the University of Durham, is founder and director of Patristic Nectar Publications, and is a prolific podcaster and author.
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Fr Josiah has a valid point. The question of corrective baptism isn’t that simple when looked on from a historical and global perspective within orthodoxy. The only church father I found who practiced this unconditionally is St Firmilian of Ceasarea. Other than him, it’s very rare. However, I do not oppose the practice on the Holy Mountain. I have even witnessed it myself there. They do not even talk about this topic with someone who doesn’t ask about it, as they’re aware it might cause confusion.
I absolutely agree with Fr. Josiah about how Evangelicals should be received. I wanted to be received by Orthodox Baptism. Sadly, I was told that was not an option since I had been water baptized in the Name of the Holy Trinity in my former non-sacramental Christian traditions. To my knowledge, neither my infant baptism in the Methodist Church nor my single immersion later when I sought to join a denomination that accepted only “believer baptism” fulfilled the pre-requisite for economia of “Orthodox form”. My acquiescence to the Bishops under whom I was received has led to periodic struggle with conscience throughout the 14 years since and wondering if I have missed out on the Grace that would have been available to me if Baptized. It’s depressing that there is such a lack of conformity to the canons and yet we are still being urged to be “obedient” to disobedient Bishops on this. I do understand his point about Seraphim Rose, St. John of San Francisco and the heterodox in sacramental traditions coming into the Church. For me as a struggling former Evangelical totally non-sacramental Christian, it seems to be a case of “damned if I do, damned if I don’t” seek corrective Baptism.
Much of which is devil's confusion. I was baptized in the Orthodox Church by pouring of water (for one reason, I didn't know any better, and for another, they did not have a baptisterium, the temple was only recently returned to the Church, a few years prior altar was used as cash register for selling bus tickets,) and that "improper" baptism still gives me lots of struggle. Obedience to the Church (and most of the time, it means obedience to the bishop) and following the practices, even imperfect ones, that She established - is, indeed, a great thing.
IIRC Methodists do have a sacramental view of baptism but may have sprinkled? Fr. Seraphim was baptized in a Methodist church. But I get it . . . many Protestant churches that have historically held sacramental views are pretty light on them now and come off as more broadly Evangelical.
@@josiahkeen Do you know if Methodists sprinkle three times? I haven’t been able to find an answer to this question online. Maybe I should just call a local Methodist pastor and ask some questions. I think I would be more at peace if there was some conformity to Orthodox form in that regard.
@@vsevolodtokarev True, and this is why I go back and forth on the issue. I plan to have a talk with my Confessor about my experience. My goal is not to get my way, but only to be able to approach the Chalice with a clear conscience and full assurance of faith that I am not cooperating unwittingly with a violation of the commands of Christ, nor relying on a misguided or misinformed conscience. I know the Lord condescends to our weakness and fulfills what is lacking in His servants. After listening to discussion on this topic by those like Fr. Josiah and others whom I regard as faithful Priests, I need to keep seeking wisdom and trust God to guide in this struggle through my own Confessor. Thanks for sharing your own experience.
I would be interested to see how your journey goes with this. Being a baptized Lutheran, evangelical non denominational Christian coming into the Orthodox faith I fear that I will be chrismated in the jurisdiction I am in and it not be valid. Unfortunately my options are limited to an alt right ROCOR church, a Greek church with ethnic Greeks that want nothing to do with us, and a Pan Orthodox Carpatho Russian church that we attend but seems less reverential than I think is necessary. May God give us wisdom friend.
I think Fr. Josiah has given in this video the wisest and most thoughtful take I have heard on the issue. Truly an example of the Royal Path.
I was baptised in a Baptist church as a child. I'm about to be rebaptized in the Balkans where I am entering the Orthodox Church. My priest did not even mention the option of not doing it. In a way, it's strange to be rebaptized, but the manner and purpose of my baptizing as a child was so different from that of the Orthodox way, that I see the sense in it.
This is an interesting topic. I'm glad that he defined "economy".
Always good to see you, brother...hope all's well with y'all!
Fr. Sysoev in Catechetical Talks brings up how it's also an abuse of oikonomia to baptise willy nilly (this is very common in post soviet Russia apparently, people are routinely baptized with next to zero catechesis).
When unitates were converting en masse the reception model of jurisdictions like the OCA or Carpatho Rus made sense. Given the state of modern mainline protestantism where baptism ranges from optional to a complete joke and the ever liberalizing roman catholic church. This model seems to be causing more scandal as of late than just receiving by baptism.
I think the biggest problem is that bishops aren’t acting pastorally. They are acting in an ecumenist manner, most of the time, by accepting false baptisms.
They are trying their best not to hurt the feelings of other so-called “christian” denominations.
Like in my case, I gave an in depth history of how the group I was raised in was not in any way a valid church and did not baptize or believe properly, but my priest refused to listen and told me I could only be Orthodox by Chrismation and there was no other way. I begged and pleaded, but he refused. He wasn’t looking out for my spiritual well being, but rather a political and ecumenist agenda. I weep daily for my own salvation. I used to go to every service and never miss church for 4 years, but now I am in constant despair and can hardly bring myself to sit in the back row.
1) Corrective Baptism denies the power of the Holy Spirit. There is no need to affirm validity in a heterodox Baptism to confirm that the Church may take a physical process done in the past, and transform it into an Orthodox baptism when the person is Confirmed. Confirmation takes the physically appropriate but spiritually incomplete procedure and baptizes it. Confirmation is corrective Baptism. I believe the Holy Spirit has this power and Bishops have this authority, the power to bind and loose, although I don't think it should be the norm.
2) Chrysostom rebaptized heterodox, but also anathematized those who denied the union to the Church of those who had been received by confirmation.
3) At one time I "thought about" having my kids who were baptized in the Orthodox Church do a conditional baptism for me. I had been received with my parents by confirmation and had been baptized in the Anglican Church by my dad who used the Orthodox formula and who was accepted by chrismation and then ordained a deacon and then a priest. Well, my kids had been baptized by my dad, so if he wasn't really Orthodox, then they couldn't baptize me. Again this was more of me considering the theological implications. So I wondered if my wife who had been baptized as a child in an Orthodox country in Europe could do a conditional baptism. She was certainly Orthodox and the priest who baptized her was Orthodox, but wait, HE had been ordained by a Bishop who had been baptized as a child in a village parish by an imposter Uniate priest! That bishop had ordained over 20 priests who collectively had baptized over 3000 Orthodox kids, and over 30 of them had become priests, and baptized kids, and at least 4 were bishops who had ordained priests who had baptized thousands of kids.
A very interesting take on an issue I myself face. I am being instructed as a catechumen right now - and in a Bavarian area that is overwhelming Roman Catholic and a 200 mile round trip to an Orthodox parish for Divine Litergy isnt easy.
Though being here, I grew up as a Mormon. A lot disagree on the LDS even being Christian in that, in fundamental ways such as the rejection of the ecumenical councils and creeds, they certainly are not Orthodox. My baptism is a mish-mash quite frankly of yes and no. For those who do not know - LDS baptism is full immersion a single time and done "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." But Mormons are not trinitarian and not monotheistic - so is that baptism done in the name of the Holy Trinity or not as they use the words but mean something quite different.
I have to have faith and trust that my priest and the bishop know what is best to do and have faith that, even if there is some error if they choose to receive me not through Orthodox Baptism, that it is the proper thing to do and that God will accept that intent. It has taken 40 years for me to come to this since my first passing talk online with a Greek Orthodox priest in 1994 when I was a teenager discussion religion. I do trust that God is more merciful to us than we are to each other many times. I often think that he chuckles at us as we argue, with good intentions, but argue much as boys argue over some game as a good parent often does.
At any rate, I would prefer reception by baptism. But I have to trust those who are placed to shepherd me and who understand more than me and to not fall into the trap of over-legalism.
I don’t think the monks go out writing letters to people telling them to do that like Fr Josiah suggests- that’s not the attitude of our monks. But they will correct something done wrong if someone comes to them with a pained conscience due to an error of their bishop. Why shouldn’t the monk do this if he is going to be the spiritual father helping them with their salvation ? Plus the bishop is the boss but Our Lord Jesus Christ as well as the holy tradition is the bishops boss
This is a good point. With corrective baptism, this decision is always made face to face between a spiritual father and the convert. A bishop’s decision regarding how a convert is to be received is almost never done face to face as a matter of spiritual discernment, but rather is done remotely as the cold application of arbitrary and unexplained policy.
saying that the Bishop is our boss sounds a bit papist.
@@seraphim3TN I agree I was meaning with respect to the priest. So the priest should consider which command he’s going to follow. Like if you work at a restaurant and the manager says one thing and the owner says another you’d do what the owner said.
Here’s a question: what if one was baptized as a Protestant, left Christianity all together and became Muslim, and now wants to embrace orthodoxy? Would he need to be re-baptized?
-This is my story
Welcome home, brother...Godspeed! The best answer is...find a parish and priest that you trust (as close to you as possible), and ask him. (Also, the internet is the worst place to ask for answers to these kinds of questions. It can be a good place to discover Orthodoxy, but that's about it...get counsel from your local priest and if he blesses you to use the internet to learn about Orthodoxy, then he'll point you to the resources he finds the best.)
@@ProtectingVeil I appreciate your humble response. I will do just that. God bless, brother. Thanks for the welcome :)
@@ProtectingVeil
Just wanted to let you know that I’m officially a catechumen. May God continue to bless you and the work you do.
Acts 19:1-6
I am in the same situation as presented in this Scripture. I was baptised as a baby. I did not know anything about Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit as a baby. According to this text, should I not receive a new baptism? Just like those baptised by Paul.
“I don’t see how those decisions [of bishops] are really the purview of monks.” Wisdom! Thank you for this word, Father.
Except this is actually part of the monastic tradition. Where the bishops are weak, the monks step in. St. Symeon the New Theologian was raised in this ancient tradition and defended it. Desert Fathers, Studion, Athos, etc., these all have this understanding as part of their monastic vocation, when necessary.
@@johncoffman1990 What, exactly is "part of the monastic tradition"? Disobeying the bishops and undermining their authority in the eyes of the laity? Corrective baptism is by no means universally accepted by monastics...not on Mt. Athos, not anywhere. "[T]hese all have this understanding as part of their monastic vocation." Could you provide a patristic source for this statement?
I don’t see how the direction of our Lord Jesus Christ in the New Testament with respect to how to generally receive converts is really the purview of anyone to disregard.
@@ProtectingVeil is it undermining their authority or upholding Christs authority ? Our Lord Jesus Christ is the head of the Orthodox Church
Father what about all of the Saints who tell us to not obey Bishops when they tell us to do or believe things that are not profitable for our salvation? St Ignatius the God Bearer, St Basil, St Meletios the Confessor etc. And don't we have to look to the modern day saints to in fact understand what is and is not detrimental to our salvation? Many saints both Greek and Russian would teach people to disobey their Bishops over the issue of reception of converts. St Paisios the Athonite, St Iakovos of Evia, St Paisius Velichovsky to name a few and also contemporary yet to be officially canonized elders also teach the same thing. Should the people in Constantinople after the Council of Florence have obeyed their Patriarch and entered into communion with the Latins? Were the monks who protested in delusion? Was St Maximus the Confessor deluded for breaking communion with virtually every Patriarch at the time? After all St Maximus was just a monk, so according to you he must have been delusional? Did St Paul say not even to listen to the Apostles if they preached another Gospel?
My Assembly of God pastor baptized me in Caprisun. Should I get rebaptized? Ive been christmated though.
Nice
If I'm not mistaken, it was not St. John who received fr. Seraphim Rose. It was Archbishop Tikhon, the predecessor of St. John
Qestion; regarding someone from the Roman Catholic tradition baptized by sprinkling and pouring ... what are the impediments to an Orthodox baptism?
3:05
@@josephsaab7208 Lev Gillet was recieved by vesting
what about Roman catholic converts who weren't immersed and don't believe the "ceremony" they went through is valid? Based on the logic presented here they should be recieved by baptism.
Triple pouring in the name of the Trinity is accepted via chrismation. It has nothing to do with the individual being able to choose their manner of reception. We’re not Protestant. Our bishop is obeyed, absent heresy. This is obedience and humility, which the fathers go on and on about, and it’s really *only* obedience when we had to do it against our will. Otherwise, it’s just me doing what I would have just done anyway.
@@fr.davidwooten1650 Father, you may be right, but I’m not convinced it is that black and white. Surely we are not called to a servile obedience in which we violate our own consciences? It seems to me that is sycophancy and cannot save. No child grows up into full adult maturity and responsibility by being parented in that way. The Tradition does also emphasize the importance of the true freedom of the spiritual child. We are not just sheep, but *rational* sheep. This seems to imply we are all also called to exercise and grow in our own powers of discernment within the Church, especially as she is made manifest in her Saints.
@@lornadoone8887 We are to be servants, yes? And we had to submit to what the historic Church actually WAS and IS, instead of what we THOUGHT it was or WISHED it was, yes? In essence, the structure of the Church does not have to do with individual choice anywhere near as much as American idolatry of choice would have it. If the bishops rule, it is not necessarily to make us happy. That is not necessarily the point of being pastoral. Sometimes being pastoral is telling you the truth you don't want to hear, including, "No, we're not going to just dismiss everything in your religious past; there are things in your heterodox past that are praiseworthy and worth keeping a hold of. We are going to BUILD upon that when you come into the Church instead of discarding it all and doing it all from scratch." This is a beautiful aspect of chrismation instead of baptism; it forces (yes, forces us, and that's a good thing here) to accept what's beautiful and good in our former confession and complete it in the only place it can be brought into its fullness: the Holy Orthodox Church.
I plan to find someone who will baptise me because of this very issue. I don't think sprinkling on my head as an infant, nor any other mystery of the RC, are valid in any way.
@@fr.davidwooten1650 Thank you Father well said!
I’m wondering if it would be harmful to receive a corrective baptism? I, and my family, were received via Chrismation. However, the longer I am part of the Church the more I personally want a proper baptism from the One True Church. The “church” my family was previously part of has sunken into apostasy and I don’t feel they received a true baptism. Would I be wrong for seeking a corrective baptism?
The burden for this decision falls on the shoulders of your bishop. Fr. Seraphim Rose explicitly writes against "corrective baptism": "L was very pleased that Q was baptized [after having been a member of the Russian Church Abroad already for several years]: Finally he did it “right”! But we are not pleased at all, seeing in this a sign of great spiritual immaturity on her part and a narrow fanaticism on the part of those who approve. Saint Basil the Great refused to baptize a man who doubted the validity of his baptism, precisely because he had already received communion for many years and it was too late to doubt then that he was a member of Christ’s Church! In the case of our converts, it’s obvious that those who insist or are talked into receiving baptism alter already being members of the Church are trying, out of a feeling of insecurity, to receive something which the Sacrament does not give: psychological security, a making up for their past failures while already Orthodox, a belonging to the “club” of those who are “right,” an automatic spiritual “correctness.” But this act casts doubt on the Church and her ministers." en.afanasiy.net/articles/father-seraphim-rose-on-the-hothouse-approach-to-orthodoxy-and-correcting-the-incomplete-baptism-letter-from-jan-28-feb-10-1976/
What about someone who was baptized in a church of Christ denomination who believes and practices baptism for the forgiveness of sins and view it as salvific , they do it in the name of Jesus only due to that being the only requirement given by Peter in acts 2:38
Wouldn’t that count since Jesus is all in one the father and the Holy Spirit?
It should be mentioned that Fr. Seraphim Rose was not received by St. John of Shanghai.
And that St. Elizabeth was a martyr.
And that St. John did not perform "corrective baptism" on Fr. Seraphim, nor did Fr. Seraphim seek it (on the contrary).
In spite of the error, our good Lord was and is always free, seeing the enormous love and struggle of the repenting monk and wise Hieromonk - to correct matters Himself. The Holy Synod apparently agreed, and corrected this earlier stance, driven by diversions from patristic theology into scholastic ideas about Grace and the Church - just a few years later, this is the stance that Fr. Seraphim kept and never wavered from … baptism of ALL converts.
This whole thread is an example of the importance of context in rightly understanding anything.
@@ProtectingVeil You actually don't know that. When done it's almost always a very private thing so no one can possibly be scandalized by it.
So i, coming from the catholic church, being received by chrismation only into the OC..am still not baptized nd not a member of the church?
All of my local orthodox churches charge for baptism. I can’t afford the $150 (at least) for baptism and I can’t comprehend what they’d charge for anything like chrismation.
LHM! That is not normal...have you looked for another parish using: orthodoxyinamerica.org/ ?
The Holy Apostles travelled the world Baptising people as directed by our Lord for the love of Christ and for the salvation of humanity!
To charge for baptism ( as you mentioned ) is ecumenism in its full sinful glory!
How is that ecuminism?@@georgiadim5333
@@georgiadim5333 that is not ecumenism, I do not know of any group that would charge for Baptism. Tell them that you cannot afford it. If it presents a problem.
“Pastoral decision”? What purpose does it serve to bring people into the Church in such a way?
The second council even calls out those who baptize in ONE immersion instead of the proper Three… and we are to baptize those who don’t immerse or who don’t do it thrice… or who don’t believe lies about Christ and his Church.
The answer is simple. When you come to the realization that the Orthodox Church is the only true apostolic church this would mean that any previous baptism from other denominations is void. A true convert enters the church in humility and wanting to be baptized the correct way with the three full submersions by a priest. My mother was a devout Catholic and Jesus Christ Himself appeared to her and would not face her. When she asked why wasn’t He looking at her He replied “Because you are not baptized”. This all happened after she realized the Catholic Church was wrong and prayed for two weeks in years asking Jesus to help her find the true Church back in 1971.
This story has many more details about how the demons started appearing to her three days prior to baptism, trying to convince her that she would not like it, that the water was freezing, and that she was crazy. After she was baptized with the three full subversions and cremated and received holy communion the demons all started screaming, and were hiding behind the columns and people inside the church. Our glorious father Jesus Christ opened her spiritual eyes because she was truly searching for the truth, and he revealed it to her and the many converts that came after her. So this means a comfort should humble themselves and accept the true baptism. If they truly want to be orthodox and not let ego or pride get in their way, just like the Saints preach.
Sorry for some of the typos
What’s this “economy/economising” Fr.’s talking about?
See the part 1 video by fr Trentham. He covers it there
@@Durnyful thanks
In a phrase, "relaxing canonical rules to avoid greater harm, using pastoral discretion". Such as, giving very mild, symbolic penances for severe sins.
Why discuss this when Fr Josiah admits he doesn’t even understand corrective baptism? The more he discussed it the clearer it became he doesn’t know what it is about sadly.
Also, the idea that monastic have no concept or need for economia… what a weird idea. Monastics have applied economia all the time in the monasteries. And the very monks he says can’t discuss such things are the ones who are later ordained bishops who then can! What a strange concept. He would’ve done better simply not discussing this. Very sad to see of Fr Josiah who is usually so helpful and pastoral. He really lacks a pastoral understanding of this issue.
When did Fr. Josiah say he didn't understand "corrective baptism"? What made you think that the "more he discussed it the clearer it became he doesn’t know what it is about sadly"? Who suggested monastics don't understand economy? And monks don't apply economy on their own anyway, bishops do, so I don't know what "Monastics have applied economia all the time in the monasteries" means.
@@ProtectingVeil What do you mean that monastics don’t apply economy on their own? Do you think monastic spiritual fathers hear confessions and then phone their bishops before giving penances or applying the canons? According to what canon or criteria do you think it improper for monastic spiritual fathers to make decisions regarding the salvation of their spiritual children?
@@3devdas777 Church order and pastoral care, including the use of economy, is ultimately the responsibility of the bishop. Bishops don't tend to micromanage (and yes, monasteries have a certain amount of autonomy, but this tends to be more regarding how they structure their daily life), but any legitimate use of economy is, ultimately, done with the blessing of the bishop. Priests and monastics can't just apply economy willy nilly, especially if they're doing so against the blessing of their bishop.
With all respect father, your views on baptism for converts to Orthodoxy are confusing, ecumenical an NOT based on true Orthodox salvific teaching!
1) Corrective Baptism denies the power of the Holy Spirit. There is no need to affirm validity in a heterodox Baptism to confirm that the Church may take a physical process done in the past, and transform it into an Orthodox baptism when the person is Confirmed. Confirmation takes the physically appropriate but spiritually incomplete procedure and baptizes it. Confirmation is corrective Baptism. I believe the Holy Spirit has this power and Bishops have this authority, the power to bind and loose, although I don't think it should be the norm.
2) Chrysostom rebaptized heterodox, but also anathematized those who denied the union to the Church of those who had been received by confirmation.
3) At one time I "thought about" having my kids who were baptized in the Orthodox Church do a conditional baptism for me. I had been received with my parents by confirmation and had been baptized in the Anglican Church by my dad who used the Orthodox formula and who was accepted by chrismation and then ordained a deacon and then a priest. Well, my kids had been baptized by my dad, so if he wasn't really Orthodox, then they couldn't baptize me. Again this was more of me considering the theological implications. So I wondered if my wife who had been baptized as a child in an Orthodox country in Europe could do a conditional baptism. She was certainly Orthodox and the priest who baptized her was Orthodox, but wait, HE had been ordained by a Bishop who had been baptized as a child in a village parish by an imposter Uniate priest! That bishop had ordained over 20 priests who collectively had baptized over 3000 Orthodox kids, and over 30 of them had become priests, and baptized kids, and at least 4 were bishops who had ordained priests who had baptized thousands of kids.
We see there is no response lol.
With all respect father, there is only one true salvific baptism, - the true Orthodox baptism with 3 full immersions, in the name of The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit in order for the individual to be cleansed from all sin and regenerated spiritually.
Everything else is but ecumism which has created such destructive spiritual chaos!
May our merciful Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ enlighten you father for the salvation of your soul and for the salvation of your followers!
With all respect father, there is only one salvific Baptism, the correct Orthodox 3 full immersion Baptism in the name of the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, in order for the individual to be cleansed from all sin and become regenerated spiritually.
Any deviation is but ecumenism which has created such destructive spiritual chaos.
May our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ enlighten you father for the salvation of your soul and also for the salvation of your followers who are influenced by you.