Alternative Metal Band Debate with Wade MacNeil | LOCK HORNS (live stream archive)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- LOCK HORNS: ALTERNATIVE METAL revisits the 90s heyday of this genre and debates its place in metal history. Host Sam Dunn welcomes back guest co-host WADE MACNEIL (Alexisonfire, 102.1 The Edge) to help us update our original "Hard Alternative" branch with the most essential bands and help figure out how this genre connects to grunge, nu metal and more. Join us LIVE on Thursday March 23 at 4pm EST! And don't forget: come ready to fight!
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If people are complaining that SOAD is not Alt Metal because they sold records and were on the radio (even though they wrote a song about the state of radio ironically) and are comparing their success to Nickleback's (wtf lol), then I guess you kids need to eliminate Nirvana off the grunge chart too by your logic...... Yeah, didn't think so lol.
I think this is finally the Sub-Genre that SYSTEM OF A DOWN can fit in since they incorporate so many elements into their metal sounds.
The disrespect to SOAD is outrageous, they are unrivalled and unique, integrating many influences...Alt-metal
If System of a Down is somehow disqualified because they were on the radio then so should Deftones, Tool, Faith No More, or Primus. Not saying I agree with that, just pointing out how removing them for being radio favorites is ridiculous given how many of these also got mad radio play over the years.
I forgot that people made this argument. Such a cluster fuck of an episode where that argument can be validated and yet AlterBridge of former Creed members makes it on this list
Have System of a Down made it onto any Banger list successfully? I watched the nu metal and groove metal episodes where they were determined to be disqualified. Why do people have so much trouble classifying SoaD???
System of a down is heavier and has more metal than the deftones, and has a lot of progressive elements. They fit perfectly in the AltMetal list.
Whatever you may think of System of a Down, they should still be considered heavy metal. It's gotten to the point where if something isn't extreme metal it isn't metal anymore. They're as heavy as the Judas Priest or any of the first wave metal bands, if not more.
I think they belong in the alternative metal branch. Think about this: R.E.M. is considered alternative rock. I wouldn't put System of a Down and R.E.M. in the same branch.
Heaviness doesn’t define metal. A lot of hardcore is heavier than a lot of metal
@@supremelordoftheuniverse5449 so if they aren't metal, what they are? enlighten us with your wisdom!!
@@mauriciom5555 hard rock
@@supremelordoftheuniverse5449 JAJAJAJAJJAJAJAJAJAJ it is obviously that you didn't know what Hard Rock means, that is the genre of bands like Kiss, Aerosmith, or Scorpions, you can't compare the sound of those bands with Slipknot, damn' man you have a serious brain damage, seriously!!
@@mauriciom5555 thanks, you too! ❤️✊🏿
Faith no More is awesome.
Tool and Deftones making their 500th Lock Horns appearance.
Trying to categorize Tool is an effort in futility. Tool is everything and anything, all at once.
I really don't know what's so hard about categorizing Tool - they are the very definition of the modern era of 'Progressive Metal'(arguably, 'THE' transition band from the more classic Prog that wrapped up in the '80s/early '90s to modern Prog), along with Mastodon, Intronaut, and a few others. How can anyone argue that they aren't Progressive or are more so something other than Progressive? Anyone posing those arguments I don't think has actually listened to Tool & their whole catalog outside of what they've heard on the radio.
Yeah, well they didn't really become "prog" until Lateralus and therefore more than qualify as alt-metal. And yes, I've listened to their entire output over and over.
They are hot on Devin's heels.
Tool are definately both Alternative and progressive metal. Their early output being more alternative and their latter more prog. But they've always had elements of prog in their music.
How the fuck is King's X not on this list. They were one of, if not, the first Alternative Metal band. Their debut was in 79, and by their second albums they were full on Alternative Metal!!
System of a Down is by far the heaviest band in this list but they're not metal? WTF? Listen to Toxicity, the guitars are heavy, down tuned, fast and lots of metal influences can be heard. First song on Toxicity has fast heavy riffs and even growling from Serj. Absurd to consider a band like Tool and leave out SOAD.
Chevelle, Godsmack, Sevendust, White Zombie, System of a Down, Slipknot should all be on this list
Yes I totally agree. Great list by the way.
Chevelle is alt-rock and slipknot are a nu-metal band
Helmet for the win!
Best band ever
The fact that Primus is on the Alt-Metal list pretty much says that Rollins Band should be on there as well.
Really surprised that Chevelle didn't make it onto here. They're a pretty universally respected Alternative Metal band, and arguably one of the most consistent metal bands ever when it comes to quality material.
Without a doubt, I'm with you. And they're, unquestionably, going to be a MASSIVE influence on the next generation of musicians(and are on me as well), I have no doubt that we're going to be hearing their influence a LOT in the coming years.
So true!!
Horribly Underrated comment.
If any modern band was to be considered valid for this list, it was Chevelle. Fucking sad
I gotta agree with you, Chevelle is a good band and deserves a spot on this list as an example of a modern band carrying the alt metal torch. I really like how they incorporate movie genre themes into some of their albums (ex. Sci Fi Crimes, La Gargola, North Corridor). When you mix those themes with their gnarly, bass-heavy riffs and catchy melodies it makes for a damn good record. You've got to be at least a little special to have someone like Joe Barresi (Tool, QOTSA, Melvins, Kyuss) take an interest in your work.
Nice episode. I just think that the SOAD discussion was kinda lame...comparing them with Nickelback is stupid. Yeah, they achieved mainstream status...but that does not make them not a metal band, listen to their first 3 albums...=P
Nacur I agree 100%, I'm not a huge fan but even I can tell that they aren't that kind of mainstream alternative pop rock that one of those comments said. Radio rock is absolutely benign of musical creativity, soad is a circus on fire.
I mean I love them but their just not metal. It has nothing to do with popularity. Just not metal.
Idk how the fuck you don’t hear metal with SOAD. Your idea of metal has got to be pretty basic then
@@claytonshirey they arent metal but Fucking Alter Bridge is? The fuck.
It breaks my heart that the mighty King's X did not make it onto the family tree (I was hoping they'd end up on this branch, but alas...). This band, whose influence, originality, longevity and flat-out greatness are indisputable, don't even get a mention? King's X married gospel, funk, blues, shimmering Beatle-esque pop elements, prog and even power pop to a metal component that is and was as heavy as anything else out there. Their pioneering use of detuned guitars, begun on their 1988 debut album, loomed large over the 90s alt-metal landscape. They are universally respected and adored by musicians of all stripes, and have one of the most devoted followings ever. The metal aspect of their sound has been consistent and undeniable from day one and their innovative and unprecedented melding of metal with the aforementioned styles should be recognized.
Brooklyn Volume Totally agree with you, kings x are one of the most innovative and talented bands in heavy music, Gretchen is one of my all-time favorite albums, such an under appreciated band
Not to mention, one of them even had dreadlocks. Sigh.
King's X are too good to have anything to do with Lock Horns.
HUGE KINGS X fan here . . .
I think they were soo much more than "Alternative" though (I think it actually limits what they are), and many consider them more "Proggie" because they have soo many influences and sounds as you added, each member is their own entity, and each have done various side projects of various sub-genres of Metal. And they freaking have awesome 3 part harmonies!
They DO need more exposure, and were always "Radio Ready" but I don't get why they never caught on - they can't even get on "Austin City Limits". I could go on and on about them, but for anyone that hasn't heard them, find any album and experience the power trio like no other.
I disagree with FlashBastard though, Sam needs to do an in-depth interview with them - as a Metalhead since 1979, please give the band some praise, maybe more will check them out. They really deserve it, a working hard, pounding the pavement metal band with chops and great songwriting skills.
Well said. I got into King's X during Faith Hope Love album and alternative rock/metal was everywhere. Been a fan since-a shame they're not on the list.
One does not simply fail to mention Life of Agony and King's X when it comes to alternative metal.
Sam ..do a Faith No More album show..gotta be done ;)
I know Sam talked about this beatiful band in the grunge episode BUT the almighty Alice in Chains should be on this list!!!
Greetings from Germany
I can understand why they are on the grunge list, but I think alternative metal is a better fit for them IMO. If they weren't apart of the Seattle movement, they would be on the alt metal list, no question. Hell, there's even an argument for Soundgarden to be apart of this group. Badmotorfinger and Superunknown had a ton of heavy guitar work.
I think LIFE OF AGONY should be on the list.
iv never seen a guy against SOAD like this dude. imo alt metal for sure. the point for alt metal to me is that these bands have all unique ways to display metal. they dont sound anything like the other except those early bands who was the most influencial who had that funk, experimental metal esque vibes for the first time like FNM, Helmet and living color. then we saw new bands come in and push these experimental limits where they mixed and blended with other sub genres sound during the 90s and along with those alt metal "legends". so to me, a alt metal band is a band that stand out so much from anything else from any other subgenre, yet the influences are so many u have trouble to categorize them.
You guys should do one on crust or speed metal!
Agreed!
BANGER
I thought you guys were going to do Gothic Metal... you mentioned it when you mentioned "Type O Negative".
Also can you please redo Doom metal?!?. Your guest intruder "Nick" killed that episode with his hard on for Cathedral.
Banger,why not do segments on symphonic power metal,& Gothic power metal?
where is chevelle?
So this episode was pretty much a discussion about every band from GTA: San Andreas' Radio X.
...also, Alter Bridge is Hard Rock.
No love for Chevelle?
If you are a person and you think Faith No More is metal enough but you dont think System of a Down is, then you seriously SERIOUSLY dont have functioning ears.
I agree. Although FNM is my all time favorite but SOAD is definitely more metal. And they are avant-garde too, which automatically puts them among alternative scene.
No mention of Rage Against the Machine? They're Rap Metal but they also have the funk metal bass thing going. They also have that punk rock agressiveness. A whole mish mash of things.
They're already on the chart.
SleepingDragon3 They were put in Nu Metal if not not mistaken. It's true that they influened the development of nu metal but I think they preceded that movement and have more in common with alternative metal.
Rage is definately on the alt metal chart. They are at the very bottom in small letters.
SleepingDragon3 Oh I see them now. I don't remember them addressing them during the episode.
There wasn't really a need. RATM is seen as one of the great alt metal bands. Some people claim RATM is Nu Metal but those people don't realize that Rap Metal and Nu Metal aren't synonymous
Something I think a lot of people miss in these discussions is that it doesn't matter whether or not you LIKE a band or if you think they suck. If they're influential or historically important to the genre, they go in. Otherwise it's a Buzzfeed list.
gutsdozer agreed
Come on, Sam. You said you'd revisit some stuff on the family tree. Like Candlemass needs to be in Doom Metal, God Damnit! Also you need Avant-garde metal, with bands like Unexpect, Mr. Bungle, Kayo Dot, Maudlin of the Well.
Tool is an Alternative Metal, before they were doing prof on Lateralus/10,000 Days; Opiate, Undertow, and Ænima are considered Alt Metal albums.
Everyone's bugging about the SOAD disrespect here (which is bullshit, I agree), but I'm more pissed off because they took out Jane's Addiction without even a second thought. So many of these Alt metal bands wouldn't sound ANYTHING like they do had it not been for fucking Jane's Addiction!!
Alter Bridge are definitely Alternative Metal, they are far heavier than Creed ever were. Miles and Mark are both great musicians and good lord whoever said they are a SOAD clone, you literally know nothing.
Listen to Blackbird by AB and you'll see, maybe even All Hope Is Lost.
Andrew Shirley I will listen to AlterBridge on occasion and disagree highly. They have barely kept up with the heavy metal inflation of sorts between what they did as Creed and now. Creed had some heavy tracks that one could point to and same can be said of AlterBridge. Listen to "What If?" or "Bullets"
Also, where is the "Alternative" factor outside of the first 5 letters?! AlterBridge play a very standard big arena rock sound that isn't part of some experimental formula at all. Perhaps you can get by calling them metal, sure, but alternative? There has to be a much higher standard of creativity
@@chapter_black3234 to me the early Alter Bridge had some Creed sound but listen to tracks like Metalingus, still remains and cry of Achilles. These heavier tracks separate them from Creed. Not to mention how heavy Mark Tremonti plays in some of the songs
System of a Down is just as "metal" if not more metal than Tool and Faith no More and shouldn't be kicked off just because Chop Suey! was on the radio a lot lol
As much as I dig Primus...other than Frizzle Fry, I don't really see them as Metal and imo Godsmack just plain suck!!! = Watered down Alice in Chains/Metallica. SOAD for me = The looniness of Bungle with Aggression of Slayer sounds pretty Alt Metal imo.
Infectious Grooves anyone?
Wow, great suggestion that I'm surprised didn't come up on the show!
RyTrapp0 I was at the road when the show was streaming. I follow this episodes since the beginning, so that was very unfortunate. Anyway, is great to see someone who also likes them!
I would have added them to a short list and a genre that lasted a much shorter time than NUmetal (which I'm not a fan of) - "Funk Thrash"; Ignorance, Mordred, Mindfunk, 24-7 Spys, early Primus, Leeway, Faith No More, Psychefunkapus, I'm forgetting a few others . . . . .
hah ..Ignorance !! I still have their "Why?" demo - before they went funk
more or less the same thing as RHCP. They are not that heavy in order to call them "metal"
No Alice in Chains??? 😑
They’re grunge, in fact one of the quintessential grunge bands
TelevisedPork there’s a lot of overlap.
TelevisedPork They're Grunge for sure.. but primarily they are black sabbath influenced metal. They have also experimented with doom & sludge metal. Listen to Them bones, dam that river, grind, sludge factory..these are their metal masterpieces.
Subeein Suresh Them bones Is fairly Alt Metal
Them and Soundgarden are also Essential Alt Metal bands too.
War Metal episode
Faith no more is my all time favorite band and I'm a huge metal head
you guys should've put Therapy?, quicksand and kerbdog on there because they're alternative metal bands
"put Body Count in there just so people don't call us racists"
This list began to suck when you removed Jane's and Pumpkins from your 'ahem' ALTERNATIVE metal chart and replaced them with 'ahem' NU METAL band Deftones. Billy Corgan and Dave Navarro were HUGELY influenced by metal and brought metal dynamics into their songwriting style. The alternative genre is clearly not your strong suit Sam Dunn.
Starts @ 2:39
Faith no more Epic set a great standard for alt metal...
Angel Dust set another one!!
FOR GOD'S SAKE FINALLY SOMEBODY SAID LOUD AND CLEAR THAT DEFTONES IS NOT A NU METAL BAND!!!
CONGRATS GUYS! CHEERS FROM PERÚ!
You can't listen to Toxicity, especially tracks like X, and tell me that's not metal.
Prison Song especially
i dont know of any breaking benjamin documentary on NETFLIX???? i just searched and didnt find anything, does anyone know about what he was talking about? Also, System of a Down is one of the greatest bands EVER, and the disrespect by this clown judge is pathetic.
Rick Rubin says it best here:
th-cam.com/video/hByRgNaneTU/w-d-xo.html
*System of a Down* absolutely belongs here! Unfortunate that neither Sam nor this guy likes them or gets them, apparently. The entire POINT of "Alternative" as a movement was to come out of left field. WTF do you want?!
As a life-long Metalhead who disliked them at first and now love them, I can say with confidence, they are absolutely METAL and kick fucking ASS!!!
Screw the purists who don't (or won't) get it.
Why are you bangertv and mainly the guest discrediting system of a down 😠🤬😡🤘🏼 there one the the best bands 🤘🏼and one of my favourites
Alternative is an actual genre, not just an umbrella term. Alternative Rock Bands that experiment with other genres of music are respectively labeled under Rap Rock, Electronic Rock, Pop Rock or Industrial Rock etc. Alt Metal is a influenced by Heavy/Groove Metal and Alternative Rock. Henceforth, by utilizing a heavier and more distorted sound and fusing various elements of other music genres Alt Metal itself forms it's own subgenres such as Nu Metal, Industrial Metal, Rap Metal etc.
Chino and Deftones have absolutely nothing to do with emo at all, Sam.
Yes and Chino was clearly not a "metal guy." Didnt have a traditional metal voice, didnt look like a metal guy, and his influences growing up were not metal bands. Most of their cover songs were not metal bands. They covered Helmet but as was said they covered stuff like Sade, Cocteaeu Twins, The Smiths, Duran Duran. Steph Carpenter was the main metal guy in the band. That being said, they do belong in this category do to the metal riffing and screamed vocals and many "heavy" songs.
They have influenced the 2000s emo bands though
Wish they would have giving more attention to Chevelle or 10 years.
Idk about 10 years but Chevelle definetly deserves more respect. They unfortunatly got lumped into with those butt rock bands but they're so much better and less corny than those bands.
I’m 3 years late but this needs to come back. Breaking Benjamin and Godsmack is Butt Rock, probably.
I can't believe King's X didn't get a mention here.
Kings X are progressive Metal
FNM
Sorry - archive listener - how the fuck is Alter Bridge a clone of SOAD???
LOVING Wade's input, defo gonna check out the ep's he is on. Love your work guys
I will readily admit that I like Godsmack.
How could you be ashamed of liking Godsmack? I've seen them live and they're awesome.
Saw them live as well when the opened for Metallica back in 2004. Great fucking live band! They got the crowd going more than Metallica did. The crowd was much more enthusiastic over them. James even made jokes about how quiet the crowd was when Metallica was playing (and they were).
Godsmack completely outshined Metallica that night.
Meh I like Abba and spice girls, but I also enjoy.extreme metal, no shame here :p
That night was my first ever concert and I saw them in Toronto. Man, Sully was a BEAST on those drums! That solo.....
I saw them in Hamilton a week or two after. Godsmack was fucking amazing. Metallica hasn't been back since though which I understand. The crowd was dead, they closed off the entire second deck due to lack of ticket sales which makes no sense. I saw them in 1997 in Hamilton and it was close to sold out (just the one end was empty but I think that was due to people not knowing the stage was going to be in the center). The black album tour was sold out as well as the Justice tour as well. I think the Napster thing had to do with the ticket sales not being there. I was disappointed when they didn't come back during the Death Magnetic tour. Ah well. I've babbled on too much lol
I think alter bridge is more metallic rock....metal riffs and drumming with rock vocals and songwriting...it's like if nickelback could write badass heavy riffs and solo like paul gilbert. System is definitely an alt metal band....really, this list seems like the main characteristic is " genre bending " without the prog....not uber technical and out landish more like rock songs where the verse could be punk, the chorus could be metal, the bridge could be funk and the outro could be gypsy music. I think system embodies that description probably just as good as faith no more. Look at prong, primus, deftones sure the varing to degrees are there but take Rage for example....hip hop verses with rock choruses and funk breakdowns....with a bad attitude saying fuck the police....they all bend their genres. In rock if u step out the mold you don't stay in the genre....if play anything metalish regularly your metal and that's where you should be b/c we don't follow rules in this genre...rules are meant to be broken. The next gen following the Mr. bungle and faith no more route is Twelve foot ninja....those fucking dudes kick serious donkey ass...it's like sevendust meets meshuggah meets chili peppers....so fucking good.
Nice to see Deftones get some respect. Still releasing new, different, weird, groovy heavy stuff. One of the greats.
As a lover of multiple genres...i was in my early twenties for my nu metal phase.
why are so many people shit talking about nu metal?
It was a phase...but i still love revisiting those bands. Not all were untalented....and nu metal brought tons of awareness to heavy music
This show is awesome! :') I have my own opinions on some of those bands, but hey, I agree with a lot that's been said :) Rock on..erm... Metal on! \m/ x'D
I surprised no one mentioned GWAR
I go on Album buying sprees after these episodes lol.
Therapy?
I watched the whole thing waiting for Therapy?... :/
How are the Chili Peppers even remotely considered metal at all? I don't get that
Sevendust anyone
The System Of A Down argument really annoyed me. When I first heard of them I immediately thought they were metal and reminded me of something akin to FNM. How the hell do you not hear metal when you listen to SOAD or even try to compare them to Nickelback or Alter Bridge? Listen to Toxicity or their self titled album and tell me that’s not some form of metal. So many shit(metal)heads with such a moronic view of “what metal is” or suppose to be. Glad Sam had enough sense to say they are alternative metal at the end of the day
System of a Down Kick your bands Ass
I'd better hear some good talk about Helmet. (not watching live)
Really? System of a Down, not metal???
@banger I'm not sure if you have it already but some of the bands like Devin Townsend project and tool need an experimental metal list.
Shocked to not see Korn on this list
great show. where's alice in chains ?
Bill Wang Grunge
Cournioni yeah i figued but i think they belong here also.
probably also Soundgarden
No one mentioned Serj Tankian's Solo band.
I was 16 in 1990. Most of the bands mentioned are my favorites. Thank you for working Living Colour into your family tree.
what about mudvayne
Yeah that was a huge miss.
Mudvayne is tricky. You could call them alt metal but they also have a nu-metal type sound as well as a progressive sound (specifically The End Of All Things To Come And LD.50).
i tend to think of mudvayne as prog metal. EOATTC is a frigging prog album....concept, amazing playing, crazy time sigs...its all there
Why does the guy hate on RHCP so much
If you're going to call it Alternative METAL, take out the Chili Peppers. Then Pumpkins,
I'm not a big fan of theirs, but I'm surprised Disturbed didn't come up in the chat. Also I think Living Colour belonged up top with FNM & Helmet.
Bold move, but would Ghost be considered alternative? Arcane Roots is probably one of the newer but lesser known Alt-Metal bands of today.
Clutch would have been a good fit
Some people tried to get them put on but they were overlooked for some reason.
Not a word about Finnish band Waltari?? Established in 1986 and ALTERNATIVE is the word!!
First: This chapter is not for true metalheads, Alternative Metal is about doing altern things with classic metal music, that means replace elements, change basic things, etc. Everything that true metalheads hate when someone touch his appreciated metal... for example when some guys was saying that System of a Down isn't metal 🤦🏼♂️
Second: With all respect here is a lack of knowledge about Alternative Metal genre, where is Mordred, Freak Kitchen, Praxis or Mind Funk??
Third: We can't put Alter Bridge or Godsmack here, they are metal, but they have another elements like gringe, they aren't so much alternative, if we put them so we have to put Avenged Sevenfold or Atreyu too, that's not alternative is a new wave of metal music...
System imo is more nu-metal or better even, avant-garde metal than alternative metal. When I think alt metal I think Chevelle, Breaking Benjamin (also post-grunge), etc.
In what world is Body Count alt metal? They’re crossover thrash through and through.
I love this show, but sometimes your lists are quite laughable..
For example how in the hell can you not include bands like Kings X, The Toadies, Clutch, Rollins Band and NIN?
All of these bands belong so much more than fucking Primus!
Great show Sam. Glad you got the sound issues sorted. You should do Lock Horns weekly podcast as well .
Living color belongs on the black metal branch
Lol
I guess my band Sevendust is black metal lol
Smashing pumpkins... mmeeeeh. 10000 bands will fit better on that board. Maybe TAD? Helmet? They clearly show more metal influences
My list of essential alt metal bands:
Faith no More
Helmet
Deftones
Tool
System of a Down
A Perfect Circle
Stone Sour
All the other bands in this list are part of other genres.
I'm not crazy about it but Alter Bridge is definitely alternative metal. Sounds like stuff that was on the radio in the 90s. It's alt metal.
This dude Wade MacNeil is very entertaining. Also, I love Rollins Band, but glad they never shoehorned them in here. Rollins is never Metal and would never in a million years want to be put in any Metal category.
Oh God... In Flames... it burns. I know you guys are right, but ouch.
CHEVELLE should be added
Death thrash? The more i listen to the proto death metal i seem to think it sounds like a genre all its own. Morbid sainttttttttt
Breaking Benjamin documentary? Can't seem to find it...
me either (it'd work better if I actually looked).
Let me sum it up for you. The band sucked. Singer replaces entire band. Band still sucks. The end.
Hah I'm not denying they suck now, they were just a band I grew up with. More of a nostalgia thing than a talent thing.
FlashBastard1964 You're wrong my friend. They're one of the best modern rock/metal bands out there. Its true that they'd gone through some tough times, but their music is epic. Listen to their albums - Phobia ,Dear agony ,We are not alone, Saturate.
Kyle Pierce maybe because there isn't one?
norma jean. no one currently touches the definition of alternative metal as much as they do. who else combines: converge/botch with thrice/deftones with some sludge.
I actually think Metallica created this genre post ...AJFA
It’s all alternative.
Actually, when hardcore punk married heavy metal, it became alternative metal, with sub-sub genres like nu-metal, speed metal, doom metal, thrash, etc.
Remember, alternative has many subgenres and subsubgenres.
In the end, it’s all alternative.
Talk to Alan Cross. 😉
HELMET.
Wade! My dude. Seriously, System of a Down is a hard pill for me too. “Try not to…” lol
This whole part of the chart is not needed. Hardly any of those bands can be honestly called metal. Not everything needs to be shoehorned into metal.