Glad you had fun! Interesting to hear your own analysis as someone who doesn't shoot matches versus what I might see as someone who has shot too many... My .02 in watching these few short minutes (and you hit on this at the end of the vid) - the two greatest areas of opportunity are: 1) Your time to shoot when entering positions due to your footwork, gun position, head/eye position and overall position setup, can be done faster/better, and would make a big difference for you. 2) Gaming stages / risk mitigation with better mag changes On the flip side - the rifle skill off of the barricade positions was WAY better than what most people can do (obviously you saw that in your score). You think that comes from the practice you have working that type of shooting in the dessert? I unironically don't think 'go faster' is necessarily the right answer when it comes to the 'shooting'. It may be true that you're prioritizing accuracy, but, if you think about it as working on trimming the fat on all the times when you are on the clock but NOT shooting, that will maximize your score without giving up points. - Josh
Spot on with the time outside of trigger pulling being the big zone of improvement for overall times, going from a 0.22 to a 0.17 per shot is meaningless if you take 3-4 seconds getting into and out of 2 awkward positions on a stage.
yeah I actually worked on entering "boxes" yesterday. It's something that's really clunky as well as typically when I get to a position it's been a slide into cover. Thanks for the feedback man, I certainly have a lot of work to do.
@@novagroup2 kinda wild this was your first match/matches....my first match I finished 54th out of 58 hahaha (that was way before practiscore existed though, so, no evidence ;-) ) - Josh
72% is a high B classification. That's respectable for a newcomer (anyone who hasn't shot a full season of matches). Most folks that don't shoot matches will get ~C.
Yeah high B is usually where people who are good at shooting but not used to action pistol shooting end up after a few matches. Then they start climbing once they get used to efficiently moving through stages and shooting faster than a "real world" pace. It's not natural to shoot confirmation 1 or 2 if you usually shoot with the mindset of 100% shot accountability
@@novagroup2 For real dude, B is a legit starting score, especially at the pointy-end of B, a smidge off A. The only thing between a 72 and A is just speeding up a tad. You looked confident on your doubles, you can plan your reloads better (you called that out in the video so you already have a one-up there), and once you get used to stage navigation, you're in A. I'm assuming you ran CO, which is a good starting class as well. It's always well packed, and a good place to meet other advanced shooters that can provide some good info on stage preparation. A lot of my buddies that run national with me shoot in CO or the new LO class.
@MysticMungusSlungus yeah it was CO. I probably would have done better if I didn't shit the bed on the classifier stage. I basically was running late, and zoomed through it without really understanding the course of fire.
Oh cool! I was in the afternoon squad just behind you guys. Fun seeing y'all in the wild. That rifle match was kind of a cluster TBH because the organizers are new to it, but I'm hoping they keep it up. Catch you at the next one!
I have the same thought on No Shoots. My first match I ever shot I got 34/40 place, but I was 7th of the folks who didn't hit a no shoot. I went into the match with a "this is a training environment" mindset rather than "this is a game". I understand people who treat it as such, but for me, I couldn't justify it.
lol welcome to the "More speed, less accuracy" phase! By your third or so USPSA match you will be able to fly a little. Just practice seeing faster and trust your index.
I still have the same issues with the lack of speed when I do 2-gun comps and that is because I started with the Gas Gun Precision Competitions. If you keep doing these, you will see what gear works and what doesn't, such as the VFG, which is the biggest hinderance.
I think high B is where Jeff Gurwich from modern tactical shooting is classified too, but that's pretty respectable with running just 15 round mags. For USPSA Carry Optics I believe you can run 140mm length magazines, which are the 23 round Glock Pmags, or 24 rounds if you use extended G17 mags.
Pretty solid shooting there! I was a match director for 10 years. LOL the flipping LOL at 150 yard paper and 60 round close up rifle stages! This had to be the match director’s first year, right? That’s the kind of stuff I think we all do when we first start running matches then see what a soup sandwich it is and realize why stages are designed the way they are.
I’ve done a few pistol matches at the Orchard in Wallis, TX including the 2023 Primary Arms Space City Challenge. Only done one classifier stage so I don’t have an official USPSA classification yet. I’m only just starting to try to go fast. Really just focusing on fundamentals without getting a DQ. It’s a LOT of fun so far. I’ll be participating in my first rifle competition at Kalash Bash 2024. I’ll be running a PSA 14.7” GF4 AK assembled and customized by RedBeard Gunworks with a “woodland mustache” cerakote pattern. Can’t wait to see how my first AK turns out!
Good analysis/commentary on your points in a stage and the (poorly implimented) importance of some stages over others. A lot of competitive shooters and even match directors fail to understand the scoring mechanics of their games and how they impact what makes a "good" shooter, stage or match. Recognizing that early on will greatly help you define which skills to practice if you choose to continue - and I hope you do. There are a lot of ways to quantify shooter skill and ultimately no scoring system is perfect. Remember that even a bad match is still good practice and keep a positive big picture mindset.
Was awesome to see you and Ryan there, hope you do more. While you need to complement it with training other skills, competition is one of the very best ways to improve at raw shooting skill. As far as how it applies to real life - the actual shooting part becomes natural and then you can use your brain to focus on tactics during a real event. I did the same thing for my first couple matches, focusing on only getting A zone hits. That said - if you were in a real situation with multiple bogies, it’s likely a lot better to get one A and one C very fast instead of 2 A more slowly. I have fallen in love with it, and I do it to improve - I only compete from concealment with my 365. I did shoot that match with the 365 Raider, first time I had practiced with it - and while I had some bad fuckups (pro mag induced malfunction right off the bat, dropped my mag on that qualifier, and then my battery flew out of my EPS on the rotating plate rack) it performed super well, had a pretty decent score. Would love to pit the 365 Raider against your B&T TP9 in some sort of competition, even if it’s just drills of a certain nature. Of course I’m biased, but I think it would crush the TP9, particularly if the drill is from concealment as it would likely be in real life. Really wish there was some sort of PDW/subgun division - but I guess I’ll just have to beat race guns with my little baby guns.
i kinda thought it was "just for fun" when i started doing IPSC/USPSA, but you quickly realize that trying to not suck and eff up in front of a group of people you respect is probably the next best thing to combat there is as far as pressure goes. but DON'T give in to the urge to go "gamer" with your setup. stick with practical, and realize that a midpack finish against guys with bigger mags, bigger optic windows, longer slides, downloaded handloads, and quicker to draw from holsters means you're winning.
Hard disagree, the skills you get from treating it like the sport it is are highly transferrable to "real world" shooting. It's really tempting to use a duty rig then use that as mental cope for why other people are beating you, I did that for awhile before I realized that when I removed the excuses I was still being beaten by people who were flat out better than me. It was the motivation i needed to outwork them. Just put in the work to become proficient with both setups, it's really not that much more work than using the same setup for everything.
That is, if you want to regularly shoot competitions. If this is a once a quarter sort of thing it probably doesnt make sense to invest in a dedicated setup.
@@MrCashewkitty to some extent maybe but divisions exist for a reason. It's not about having super expensive stuff though, it's about picking the right tool for the job. My competition belt is less expensive than my duty belt actually.
I've been shooting competitions pretty casually for about 2 years now, this is fantastic performance for a newcomer. I still suck 🤣. I shoot irons though in uspsa. I go to a tactical class and everyone's yelling at me to slow down, it's definitely fun but a different pace and mindset.
I’ve been considering a competition but don’t have a lot of long range experience & zero experience shooting under pressure of time. We’ll see what happens, if I remember I’ll come back & put out my time & placement
It took me a long time to figure out how to balance speed vs accuracy and trusting my shots. Sometimes the extra shot is worth the time, but most of the time it isn't. Ultimately, I try to only game it a bit as the real goal is to become a better shooter.
What helped me make my biggest jump in classification was learning how to enter and exit forced positions shooting while I was still stepping. Uspsa is a race track, figure out where you have to slow down or stop everywhere else full speed movement
I know this is pointlessly late. Adaptive Rifle has some great drills for learning to work speed and accuracy. I would recommend anyone with similar issues with speed give the book, or any of the free material out there from Matt Pranka and Ben Stoeger a once over.
Good on you for getting out there. I’m also looking forwards to mogo and will probably ask about your lam if I see ya there. I know uspsa makes the best pistol shooters, but I highly suggest 2Gun. Less stage planning and gaming it, more larp and practicality
@@novagroup2 because there isn’t some governing board like Uspsa, every range’s 2Gun has been different from the next. Can just take finding the right flavor of it
@novagroup2 just listened to part 1 of the p&s podcast and wanted to hit a couple more points. Again, Uspsa makes the best pistol shooters, but they also get the hyper gamers. It is annoying, but you’ll need to accept or at least ignore it if you go to more. The rifle match stages looked pretty cool, except for that burn down double points stage. Poorly designed on their part if you couldn’t hold 1st or a very high placement based on that. Blind stages are occasionally a thing, but hard on logistics so uncommon. 2Gun stages tend to be much simpler, and most stage planning is negligible. Lastly, if mogo is anything like brutality, people there look more to the intent of stages rather than the letter of the law. You’ll also appreciate that penalties (like hitting a no-shoot) are 60 seconds, and people will fight much harder to avoid them. 2Gun also tends to lean on the direction of intent, but can depend range to range. Edit 2: they should know better to adjust sensitivity or get closer to your ejection port for suppressed shooting.
Honsetly clean hits make the most sense as in a 2-way range scenario you better make sure what you shoot is what is hit. I know the 2-gun comp stuff is a different mindset and some of it makes a lot of sense while other aspects do not make sense to me.
I shot a Quantified Performance match last weekend, we had 3 dudes on our squad and were constantly running ahead, meanwhile, everyone wanted to be squaded with their friends and delayed the end of the match by over 2 hours. Match shooting has definitely shown where I have things to work on, and maybe gear that ain't up to snuff.
Doing any kind of regular, long range shooting will put you ahead of a lot of guys who just practice speed 50 yards and in. The amount of compeitiors who don't know their dope will amaze you.
@novagroup2 eh Karl can make some spicy posts online. But if you talk to him one on one he's a good guy. Ian is literally just copying what Karl and Russell did for the first midnight brutality. Range, rule set and RSO staff included. So, you are pretty much just going to an inrange midnight brutality anyways lol.
I get that, and I'd love to do the "real deal", but he's made a point to single me out several times despite me never having interacted with him. It's just not worth it to me to involve myself in that.
try not to put the gun through the ports if you can avoid it! the only thing i see that is REALLY costing you time here is some interesting movement choices and situations where you're sticking through the ports, aiming, shooting, then having to break down the position so you can move on, vs hanging back as much as the faults allow and keyholing the windows, which lets you take your shots and then go.
Deleted all my social media and I'm not a nerd so no idea how to discord so not sure how to reach out 😂. Our shop has a house built suppressor optimized upper. Would you guys be interested in us sending out one to play with? We're a small shop hiding in Ned Lamont commie land.
I suspect you'll want to talk to hop. I'm not a FFL. So unless you want to deal with a very long wait before the review even starts... Unless I'm misunderstanding and it's just the upper that can take any suppressor? -Brass
@novagroup2 just a "proprietary" barrel/gas length 556 we dreamed up. Still threaded for 1/2x28 so whatever can you want to run will work, as long as it isn't flow through.
Glad you had fun! Interesting to hear your own analysis as someone who doesn't shoot matches versus what I might see as someone who has shot too many...
My .02 in watching these few short minutes (and you hit on this at the end of the vid) - the two greatest areas of opportunity are:
1) Your time to shoot when entering positions due to your footwork, gun position, head/eye position and overall position setup, can be done faster/better, and would make a big difference for you.
2) Gaming stages / risk mitigation with better mag changes
On the flip side - the rifle skill off of the barricade positions was WAY better than what most people can do (obviously you saw that in your score). You think that comes from the practice you have working that type of shooting in the dessert?
I unironically don't think 'go faster' is necessarily the right answer when it comes to the 'shooting'. It may be true that you're prioritizing accuracy, but, if you think about it as working on trimming the fat on all the times when you are on the clock but NOT shooting, that will maximize your score without giving up points.
- Josh
Spot on with the time outside of trigger pulling being the big zone of improvement for overall times, going from a 0.22 to a 0.17 per shot is meaningless if you take 3-4 seconds getting into and out of 2 awkward positions on a stage.
yeah I actually worked on entering "boxes" yesterday. It's something that's really clunky as well as typically when I get to a position it's been a slide into cover.
Thanks for the feedback man, I certainly have a lot of work to do.
I liked to think the more accurate I am, the slower I can afford to go, which leads to calm deliberate movement, which leads to speed.
@@novagroup2 kinda wild this was your first match/matches....my first match I finished 54th out of 58 hahaha (that was way before practiscore existed though, so, no evidence ;-) ) - Josh
72% is a high B classification. That's respectable for a newcomer (anyone who hasn't shot a full season of matches). Most folks that don't shoot matches will get ~C.
well that makes me feel a bit better.
Yeah high B is usually where people who are good at shooting but not used to action pistol shooting end up after a few matches. Then they start climbing once they get used to efficiently moving through stages and shooting faster than a "real world" pace. It's not natural to shoot confirmation 1 or 2 if you usually shoot with the mindset of 100% shot accountability
Yeah transitions and entrance and exits are where you can shave the most time
@@novagroup2 For real dude, B is a legit starting score, especially at the pointy-end of B, a smidge off A. The only thing between a 72 and A is just speeding up a tad. You looked confident on your doubles, you can plan your reloads better (you called that out in the video so you already have a one-up there), and once you get used to stage navigation, you're in A.
I'm assuming you ran CO, which is a good starting class as well. It's always well packed, and a good place to meet other advanced shooters that can provide some good info on stage preparation. A lot of my buddies that run national with me shoot in CO or the new LO class.
@MysticMungusSlungus yeah it was CO.
I probably would have done better if I didn't shit the bed on the classifier stage. I basically was running late, and zoomed through it without really understanding the course of fire.
Oh cool! I was in the afternoon squad just behind you guys. Fun seeing y'all in the wild. That rifle match was kind of a cluster TBH because the organizers are new to it, but I'm hoping they keep it up.
Catch you at the next one!
Some people use reduced sized targets to be better, i used reduced size targets because they're cheaper
I have the same thought on No Shoots. My first match I ever shot I got 34/40 place, but I was 7th of the folks who didn't hit a no shoot. I went into the match with a "this is a training environment" mindset rather than "this is a game". I understand people who treat it as such, but for me, I couldn't justify it.
lol welcome to the "More speed, less accuracy" phase! By your third or so USPSA match you will be able to fly a little. Just practice seeing faster and trust your index.
I still have the same issues with the lack of speed when I do 2-gun comps and that is because I started with the Gas Gun Precision Competitions. If you keep doing these, you will see what gear works and what doesn't, such as the VFG, which is the biggest hinderance.
A big thing I want to do is not chase competition performance at the expense of trying to win more.
But, gotta go fast.
I think high B is where Jeff Gurwich from modern tactical shooting is classified too, but that's pretty respectable with running just 15 round mags.
For USPSA Carry Optics I believe you can run 140mm length magazines, which are the 23 round Glock Pmags, or 24 rounds if you use extended G17 mags.
Pretty solid shooting there!
I was a match director for 10 years. LOL the flipping LOL at 150 yard paper and 60 round close up rifle stages! This had to be the match director’s first year, right?
That’s the kind of stuff I think we all do when we first start running matches then see what a soup sandwich it is and realize why stages are designed the way they are.
Y’all did well! Bravo!
I’ve done a few pistol matches at the Orchard in Wallis, TX including the 2023 Primary Arms Space City Challenge. Only done one classifier stage so I don’t have an official USPSA classification yet. I’m only just starting to try to go fast. Really just focusing on fundamentals without getting a DQ. It’s a LOT of fun so far. I’ll be participating in my first rifle competition at Kalash Bash 2024. I’ll be running a PSA 14.7” GF4 AK assembled and customized by RedBeard Gunworks with a “woodland mustache” cerakote pattern. Can’t wait to see how my first AK turns out!
Wasn't done in the banana shirt. Disappoint.
Good analysis/commentary on your points in a stage and the (poorly implimented) importance of some stages over others. A lot of competitive shooters and even match directors fail to understand the scoring mechanics of their games and how they impact what makes a "good" shooter, stage or match. Recognizing that early on will greatly help you define which skills to practice if you choose to continue - and I hope you do.
There are a lot of ways to quantify shooter skill and ultimately no scoring system is perfect. Remember that even a bad match is still good practice and keep a positive big picture mindset.
Was awesome to see you and Ryan there, hope you do more. While you need to complement it with training other skills, competition is one of the very best ways to improve at raw shooting skill. As far as how it applies to real life - the actual shooting part becomes natural and then you can use your brain to focus on tactics during a real event.
I did the same thing for my first couple matches, focusing on only getting A zone hits. That said - if you were in a real situation with multiple bogies, it’s likely a lot better to get one A and one C very fast instead of 2 A more slowly.
I have fallen in love with it, and I do it to improve - I only compete from concealment with my 365.
I did shoot that match with the 365 Raider, first time I had practiced with it - and while I had some bad fuckups (pro mag induced malfunction right off the bat, dropped my mag on that qualifier, and then my battery flew out of my EPS on the rotating plate rack) it performed super well, had a pretty decent score.
Would love to pit the 365 Raider against your B&T TP9 in some sort of competition, even if it’s just drills of a certain nature. Of course I’m biased, but I think it would crush the TP9, particularly if the drill is from concealment as it would likely be in real life.
Really wish there was some sort of PDW/subgun division - but I guess I’ll just have to beat race guns with my little baby guns.
i kinda thought it was "just for fun" when i started doing IPSC/USPSA, but you quickly realize that trying to not suck and eff up in front of a group of people you respect is probably the next best thing to combat there is as far as pressure goes.
but DON'T give in to the urge to go "gamer" with your setup. stick with practical, and realize that a midpack finish against guys with bigger mags, bigger optic windows, longer slides, downloaded handloads, and quicker to draw from holsters means you're winning.
Hard disagree, the skills you get from treating it like the sport it is are highly transferrable to "real world" shooting. It's really tempting to use a duty rig then use that as mental cope for why other people are beating you, I did that for awhile before I realized that when I removed the excuses I was still being beaten by people who were flat out better than me. It was the motivation i needed to outwork them. Just put in the work to become proficient with both setups, it's really not that much more work than using the same setup for everything.
That’s exactly how I feel. I will give up time just to work on draws reloads etc under stress over gaming a quick score
That is, if you want to regularly shoot competitions. If this is a once a quarter sort of thing it probably doesnt make sense to invest in a dedicated setup.
@@destroyerofgearthe same guys burning it down with Gucci gear will also destroy with an M&P shield or Glock 43 in appendix for the most part.
@@MrCashewkitty to some extent maybe but divisions exist for a reason. It's not about having super expensive stuff though, it's about picking the right tool for the job. My competition belt is less expensive than my duty belt actually.
Looked great dude! Great start! Keep it up!
I've been shooting competitions pretty casually for about 2 years now, this is fantastic performance for a newcomer. I still suck 🤣. I shoot irons though in uspsa. I go to a tactical class and everyone's yelling at me to slow down, it's definitely fun but a different pace and mindset.
I’ve been considering a competition but don’t have a lot of long range experience & zero experience shooting under pressure of time. We’ll see what happens, if I remember I’ll come back & put out my time & placement
It took me a long time to figure out how to balance speed vs accuracy and trusting my shots. Sometimes the extra shot is worth the time, but most of the time it isn't. Ultimately, I try to only game it a bit as the real goal is to become a better shooter.
Looks good m8. I like how you're not gaming it. Using your standard gear is a cool move.
ayo, lucky refresh! Love you guys, hop mostly though 😂
I'll be happy with 3rd
1. Nova
2. Hop
3. Me
What helped me make my biggest jump in classification was learning how to enter and exit forced positions shooting while I was still stepping. Uspsa is a race track, figure out where you have to slow down or stop everywhere else full speed movement
I know this is pointlessly late. Adaptive Rifle has some great drills for learning to work speed and accuracy. I would recommend anyone with similar issues with speed give the book, or any of the free material out there from Matt Pranka and Ben Stoeger a once over.
Nice. I'm in Casa Grande. Swing by and we'll have lunch.
Good on you for getting out there. I’m also looking forwards to mogo and will probably ask about your lam if I see ya there. I know uspsa makes the best pistol shooters, but I highly suggest 2Gun. Less stage planning and gaming it, more larp and practicality
perhaps yeah. Though if hop ever made a video on all the 2 gun matches he's done, he rage the entire time.
@@novagroup2 because there isn’t some governing board like Uspsa, every range’s 2Gun has been different from the next. Can just take finding the right flavor of it
@novagroup2 just listened to part 1 of the p&s podcast and wanted to hit a couple more points.
Again, Uspsa makes the best pistol shooters, but they also get the hyper gamers. It is annoying, but you’ll need to accept or at least ignore it if you go to more.
The rifle match stages looked pretty cool, except for that burn down double points stage. Poorly designed on their part if you couldn’t hold 1st or a very high placement based on that.
Blind stages are occasionally a thing, but hard on logistics so uncommon. 2Gun stages tend to be much simpler, and most stage planning is negligible.
Lastly, if mogo is anything like brutality, people there look more to the intent of stages rather than the letter of the law. You’ll also appreciate that penalties (like hitting a no-shoot) are 60 seconds, and people will fight much harder to avoid them. 2Gun also tends to lean on the direction of intent, but can depend range to range.
Edit 2: they should know better to adjust sensitivity or get closer to your ejection port for suppressed shooting.
Honsetly clean hits make the most sense as in a 2-way range scenario you better make sure what you shoot is what is hit. I know the 2-gun comp stuff is a different mindset and some of it makes a lot of sense while other aspects do not make sense to me.
I wish I could find competition like that around me. But I'm stuck with trap/skeet/ sporting clays
Ah, yes, the infamous Fuddville, USA. I’m well acquainted with that type of area.
As an Illinois resident, i feel your pain.
You’ve checked practiscore?
I shot a Quantified Performance match last weekend, we had 3 dudes on our squad and were constantly running ahead, meanwhile, everyone wanted to be squaded with their friends and delayed the end of the match by over 2 hours. Match shooting has definitely shown where I have things to work on, and maybe gear that ain't up to snuff.
Good stuff guys!
Doing any kind of regular, long range shooting will put you ahead of a lot of guys who just practice speed 50 yards and in. The amount of compeitiors who don't know their dope will amaze you.
Good work!
Would be cool to see you at one of the Brutality matches.
I was considering it, but I don't think Karl likes me very much.
I am going to the Forgotten weapons match though
@novagroup2 eh Karl can make some spicy posts online. But if you talk to him one on one he's a good guy. Ian is literally just copying what Karl and Russell did for the first midnight brutality. Range, rule set and RSO staff included. So, you are pretty much just going to an inrange midnight brutality anyways lol.
I get that, and I'd love to do the "real deal", but he's made a point to single me out several times despite me never having interacted with him.
It's just not worth it to me to involve myself in that.
@novagroup2 ok, I'm sorry to hear that, but I understand your viewpoint.
Brassfacts Friday 🎉🎉🎉
That’s a nice spot.
I have shot my first match uspsa match recently and I had the same flaws
More speed with less accuracy...?
Looks like you're getting kilt in da streetz!
Very good
Yessssss!
Looks like you did awesome. I’m sure you will score better as you get used to the rules of the game.
3:33 is this guy running a PC without plates?
What pants are they
I do this with a p365xl. It is brutal to plan around 12 rounds between reloads
Hell yeah good sht
ELCAN for the win! Is Hop still not impressed?
I will never impress hop
-Brass
Good job. It's fun. I shot matches for a while. Took me a while to get fair
Butttttt....the Nova group with no Nova at the end??? WTF? LOL
that's for the main channel. This is a joint channel
try not to put the gun through the ports if you can avoid it! the only thing i see that is REALLY costing you time here is some interesting movement choices and situations where you're sticking through the ports, aiming, shooting, then having to break down the position so you can move on, vs hanging back as much as the faults allow and keyholing the windows, which lets you take your shots and then go.
Deleted all my social media and I'm not a nerd so no idea how to discord so not sure how to reach out 😂. Our shop has a house built suppressor optimized upper. Would you guys be interested in us sending out one to play with? We're a small shop hiding in Ned Lamont commie land.
I suspect you'll want to talk to hop. I'm not a FFL. So unless you want to deal with a very long wait before the review even starts...
Unless I'm misunderstanding and it's just the upper that can take any suppressor?
-Brass
@novagroup2 just a "proprietary" barrel/gas length 556 we dreamed up. Still threaded for 1/2x28 so whatever can you want to run will work, as long as it isn't flow through.
@@novagroup2and just an upper so we can ship it wherever
no dog footage how could you
when did this go from bashing on videogames to brock b channel?
Hop is suppose to upload to it too.
but he's busy.
Whoever setup those rifle stages really hates you all or has never designed a stage in their life.
Comments cope but A zone hits are more important that quarter seconds in real life