I have been cancelling/shortening door animations by rolling, but for some reason it never even occurred to me that you can roll during the fog gate animation
I agree that the changes to this area get overstated a lot to try to score an easy dunk on scholar, but I don't think this video tells the whole story. I think it's specifically the changes in the outdoor area that makes it feel so overwhelming, rather than the overall population. In vanilla you fight 3 knights one by one, two of whom only aggro when you get close. Meanwhile in scholar there are 3 knights who will charge at you all at once as soon as you step outside, and then another 4 once you step on the bridge. Sure it's only 3 extra knights in total, and you can take them out one at a time if you're quick, but the way they aggro in groups increases the pressure a lot. The runback isn't the whole story, but I again think it's somewhat worse than you make out. The fact that most of the knights are concentrated in the one room means that if you try to run past only to get staggered in the fog door, you're done for. You could escape from or even fight the group of 3 in vanilla, but scholar's 7 at once is usually a death sentence. Also, and I think more importantly, the vanilla knights start much farther away from smelter's door. This can give you time to backstab the captain or bait him into an attack, especially if you did the skip, which makes it much easier to get through first try. If you try that in scholar, you'll get swarmed by the little guys before you can reach the door.
The beginning part of Iron Keep is probably the only part of Scholar I really don't like. The fact that Alonne Knights just seem to magically know my exact location and crawl out of the woodwork makes the beginning area feel like a clown car. It's a blessing that Smelter Demon isn't really that difficult if you prepare.
They rush you with enough delay that you’re usually fighting one at a time, as long as you don’t rush them. And a Mace +6 can deal with them rather easily.
@@Domo3000 I was thinking of people who have heard the overexaggerated horror stories about Iron Keep and might feel intimidated. Having a Mace +6 be good enough to deal with them brings the threat level down a bit, you know?
one thing this game taught me is to never rush, never run ahead carelessly most of the time you can avoid stupid deaths if you simply back out to fight in a safe area and look around
Lol 😊 What helped me was to visualize the active s: th-cam.com/video/0DC8cUnPClE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=zUbfol4DuWmasjwj Rolling s start as soon as the animation starts, but for backsteps you are doing a small step backwards first and only then when you jump back you gain s. So you have to dodge a bit earlier than you are used to.
If there is one thing that I learned from this area (or ds2 in general) is to always play with aggro lines and pick your targets and it was surely a helpful tip moving forward I really like when sometimes you are encouraged to apply a more methodical aproach to your encounters
All the encounters that people typically use as evidence that the game has unfair enemy placements can be trivialized by being strategic instead of rushing. But somehow the community listened to the biggest casuals that just try to speedrun through new areas instead of telling them to get good.
Aside from the three scripted invasions, I really enjoyed Iron Keep on my first blind playthrough. Between Fencer Sharon and Armorer Denis, it felt like this was just going to be a super frequent invasion area, then Forlorn shows up. Being a blind playthrough, I had no idea what else was coming, and was kind of just waiting for that invasion text to show up after pulling more knights.
I... Genuinely didn't know you could cancel the fog wall animation... There is so much about DS 2 I never learned or felt like it wasn't worth my time learning because I didn't really like the game itself, and felt like it wasn't worth learning more about. I don't think it's a "bad" game like I used to, I think it is just *different* and I just didn't jive with it the way I did other Souls games. Either way, I am genuinely enjoying your content. I always love seeing other people's opinions on things, and don't mind being wrong! Keep it up!
Wow. You honestly gave an awesome point of view. You didn't enjoy it, but you didn't hate it. It simply wasn't your style so you moved on from it, which is very respectable. Showing that you're open to newer interpretations instead of just walking away from it is really cool. I'm a ds2 fanboy at heart but there's many reasons I can see why the game is avoided. It can be a lot for people unfamiliar, especially those who try to play it like the other.
Whenever I hear people complain about the agro range on the knights, I'm like, "well what did you expect? You are basically invading their castle. Did you expect them to let you waltz in?"
@@tranhuup "It doesn't need to be realistic" Some level of realism is important to make the player feel immersed in that game world. if you don't balance the fantasy and realism in lore, design, storytelling, you may get another Kingdom Hearts game.
It takes only a couple hits to defeat the enemies, but players prefer to not waste additional 2 seconds on every knight and risk wasting a lot more time on failed runbacks. What is Dark Souls about? Running away from enemies? Avoiding enemies? Is it a stealth game? Is it a game about sprinting with obstacles? If players don't enjoy fighting same enemies over and over, then why are they playing Dark Souls? Am I wrong? Am I weird if I like to engage in fight with enemies?
It's also worth mention that people who say that this area is bad just talk about the smelter demon runback like it's the hole area, they ignore the shortcuts, secrets, the various ways of dealing with enemies (throwing them on lava, killing the turtle on the corridor with the guillotine, guiding the enemies to the fire throwing statues, activating the rotating flame thrower to kill the invader on ng+). DS2 haters love to use cherry picking to make the entire game look worse, and this area is the best example of that.
Yeah people really love to accuse the game of having unfair enemy placement, even when their own footage shows that they are just blindly running through new areas without paying any attention to all the traps they could use to deal with the enemies. It's always a shame when they use the second half of Iron Keep to show how unfair DS2 is, even though that is one of the most fun areas in the whole series if you just engage with the level.
If there is one area where i can definitely say the enemies need to be reduced in numbers, it is the Smelter Area. It's basically the one W i would give DS2 haters, but even then it's not the massive flaw they pretend it is. The are is just way too small for the number of knights you fight, and as you keep approaching the bridge, it can feel like you are barely moving, as they keep coming at you. I would personally substitute some of the knights with patrolling turtle knights, that don't just bum rush you as soon as they see you from the other side of the map.
@domo3000 it's really hard in a first playthrough to "engage with the area" because u just die even if u play careful, and even if u don't die in the beginning of the area u might at the end and it's really annoying to have to do it again
1:03 “You can bait them out one at a time.” Hell yeah, this is my mantra for Iron Keep in general. You don’t have to pull a FeebleKing clown car and aggro everything if you are methodical. I’m so glad you did this comparison. This whole series is badass. I still have the ability to play my OG DS2 on disc but I haven’t hooked up my XBOX 360 in about nine years. I was in the group that was gaslit into thinking SotFS was so much worse, even though I knew its critics were disingenuous about some things and that SotFS isn’t very ganky anyway (because I play it). But the comparisons I did were in my mind and relied on an ostensibly sketchy memory. You are doing a service with these videos. Big Ups! I wish you the absolute best.
While I know it's a "lame" option, I think it's worth noting how little stamina damage the alonne knights do to either of the early full block shields. Both the drangleic shield and I believe it's called the knight's shield? It's the one you can buy from the blacksmith this is basically the drangleic shield but with less stability but also a little lighter. I believe with one of the chloranthy rings, a single alonne knight can be blocked almost forever. In sotfs you can just kinda hold block in the smelter runback, and typically kill while they're stunned from their thrust attack with 2-3 r1s and repeat for the next knight, so killing them is never really a problem.
Great level. A lot of times it feels like the Knights are walking into your ambush instead of the other way around. If the optional boss is too difficult then you can always get the Belfry bonfire and teleport out of there to get one of the other three boss souls or keep pushing and just skip the optional boss. I feel the only way the level isnt fun is if you just do boss runbacks over and over without changing things up.
Scholar is worse in this location because of wider enemies agro. In original, you can pick estus safety near the second bridge, and you don't need to be quick with this. In Scholar, enemies start to run towards you, so it's harder to renegerate health.
Vanilla's Iron Keep is all about aggro enemies 1 by 1 and how are you good at it. Aggro 2 Knights at the first bridge is much easier that it seems. You need only to make very-very short steps, and when you see the first Knight is going to you, then you must walk back to not agro the second Knight while you are fighting the first. It is similar as Huntsman's Copse 5 Executioners. And it is similar to all the location. In Scholar it is very hard, cause Knights have a bigger agro range, so near the second bridge in Vanilla you can easily defeat just 2 Knights 1 by 1. And in Scholar you need to defeat a bigger amount of enemies together.
One thing I've noticed throughout the many years of hearing people complaining about dark souls and Elden Ring is that it all boils down to skill issue. Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to sound elitist is just that I've seen countless times the story about how one used to hate certain game/area in the game but after putting some effort comes to enjoy or at least don't mind it anymore because they got good. Which might also explains why DS2 gets more hate than the other entries: cuz it demands more from the player.
I used to despise scholars iron keep but I have it down to a tea, take my sweet ass time, and take the risky shortcut as I think you are better off not dropping the bridge
If you really, really suck at DS2, the ultimate method is just to grind out the path to Smelter until the Alonne Knights stop respawning. Yes, this takes quite a while, but you're probably gonna die to the Smelter Demon over and over again (since you really, really suck at DS2 in this scenario), and this makes the runback actually literally free, plus you'll have gotten enough souls for a ton of levels and a full set of the best phys+fire defense armor in the game
The awful part about SotFS Iron Keep is the obscene agro ranges on the enemies. They will agro from 500 ft away through a wall without any sort of warning or way to avoid them. And Alonne Knights are way too fast to be manegable in a gank scenario, you have to lure them out one at a time. But the only way to do that is to just trial and error your way into memorizing all the unseeable agro ranges. Perhaps I'm just biased though, the time I spent trying to get past the Smelter Demon runback on my first playthrough was the most miserable experience I've had in a Soulsborne game.
Weird question: does NG+/Ascetic increase group aggression values? I feel like ive noticed it in Shrine of Amana when i farm it for twinkling titanite. The hammer guys attack in groups more aggressively and dont back off as much i feel like idk
I also think it does. Even during the game it feels like it. I always thought that the Royal Swordsmen in Lost Bastille fight less aggressively and less strategically than those in Drangleic Castle.
@@Domo3000 it would be interesting to know if they have different AI or values or something. The Bastille ones are much closer to becoming forlorn hollows giving up it seems
I’ve gone through this place both in vanilla and scholar and don’t really have any issues with it. I also almost never do the smelter demon skip or the jump to the broken stairway to get to him on a first playthrough of a character. Now this place in NG+ is actually hard as hell. There are Seven (7) red phantoms in NG+ in scholar 😢😢😢😢😢😢 6 captains, one in the entry way hallway, one in the lava pit ladder, one where the zweihandler is, two in the furnace you turn off, one in the lava walkway after smelter demon, and the red phantom turtle cosplayer guarding the last bonfire before old iron king. 😩😩😩
So, how did you skip Smelter Demon? As I remember it is impossible at the first playtrough, cause to open the iron door near the second bridge you need to turn off the fire near the Eygil's Idol bonfire. Or you told about this just for NG+?
Aggroing only one knight at the Threshold Bridge is really easy. You literally have to try to aggro them both for it to happen. If you constantly aggro both without knowing why that's just skill issue.
1:20 you don't have to go so much to the right to aggro this guy, you can go to the corner between the fence and the pillar, I've always done it like that the only time the second one aggros too is if you then go right instead of back out to a safe distance, the middle of this bridge for example
It's wild to see that final Smelter Skip run (which i'd argue is the alternate path, not the main one, due to how far apart bonfires are if you don't have access to Smelter's one) looking as chill as it did I've played only scholar and don't think I had a good time in Iron Keep in any of my playthroughs. What I remember being infuriating was the aggro range of the knights in the open furnace area before smelter. There's a handful of archers so that in most places you had one or, often, two shooting at you and knights would come running from different spots in a way that was hard to control. Even if they come at you staggered, they start coming really quick so that really early on you're already "opted in" to like, half the room's enemies
There are less enemies on the path to the next bonfire than for the path to Smelter Demon, and it's easier to skip them. Which is why I'd argue that it's the main path and that struggling players should come back later for the Smelter Demon.
@@Domo3000 IMO the problem is more that after smelter you have a whole lot more before you can get to the next bonfire. The one for the belfry is easy enough but then you need to run the belfry to get back on the Iron Keep path. The big lava platform room is one that, while fun with all the contraptions, can get messy in a hurry pretty easily and the tiny corridors with the guillotines and iron warriors can also be tricky to deal with. it's not always easy to bait them into the traps, weapons bouncing off the sides, etc... So while I agree that, yeah, it's easier to get to the platform just after Smelter than going to the boss itself, the stretch from the first bonfire under the bridge all the way to the one on the bull's head is quite the trip to take which is why to me that'd more of an alternate path instead (also, is it really standard if you're missing out on Ring of Blades +1? =P )
@@VileLasagna running through the Belfry is easy and then you are back in the lava platform room which you would also need to get past from the Smelter Demon bonfire, so it's pretty much the same in my opinion.
@@Domo3000 definitely not too bad a run after you cleared the non respawning phantoms, even if it is quite annoying, yeah All my memories may or may not be tainted by not liking either Iron Keep or Brume Tower, lol
This and the run to the chariot are the only areas where I'm like "what were they thinking" Iron keep feels somewhat inconsistent for me, sometimes I will aggro more knights despite feeling like I'm not doing anything different And I simply hate the chariot run, it's the one time I get tired of slowly pulling every enemy By the way any tips to deal with the undead crypt and never ending hollows ringing bells?
For the Chariot you can just run through and jump to the platform at the end of the bridge and then watch the enemies fall down when they walk back. Or just running straight through by running a small loop before the fog gate: th-cam.com/video/hBO0-9krp0k/w-d-xo.htmlsi=qoOAXAal4Qmn52C- For Undead Crypt there's a limited amount of bell ringing Hollows. The first one spawns next to the bell, then another one outside that small room to the left and then a third one close to the bell again.
@@JellyJman honestly it felt like whack a mole, I didn't even know they were limited cause they kept popping up I thought I was doing somethig wrong so it turns out I just have to keep killing them?
I've always kinda hated going through Iron keep in both versions. Something about the way Alonne knights attack always throws me off and that area near the smelter demon in scholar could be really miserable.
It's the same Forlorn that invaded me in the large open space. He's a rare invader and if you defeated him in an area he won't show up again. So I'm not actually 100% sure if there are two distinct Forlorns in this area, but to me it always felt like defeating him in the first spawn point stops him from showing up in the second one. So I assume that it's just one Forlorn in the Iron Keep, but I also could just have been lucky.
I've played DX9 and DX11, and honestly... I don't particularly care for Iron Keep in either version. If given the choice, I'd rather skip Iron Keep for as long as I can and do literally any other Old Soul. Black Gulch is terrible, but it has plenty of cheesy farming spots for titanite if you're willing to roll around the oil pits with a torch (thanks ymfah). I'm quite fond of Lost Bastille / Sinner's Rise, though I detest Scholar's choice of including a lesser Flexile Sentry in an area with knee-deep water leading up to Sinner herself. Every leg toward Duke's Dear Freja is (relatively) easy to clear and generally a net positive in terms of loot, and Freja herself is a (relatively) easy boss if you have a torch. I used to hate DS2 so much when I first played it back in 2015 on my PS4. After almost 10 years, my feelings have softened dramatically. DS2 has replay value where DS1/DS3/Bloodborne have limited or otherwise none. However, all these years of watching people discuss DS2 have solidified one feeling more than any other within me: it's a painful experience, there's a ton of jank, and it requires a fair bit of acclimatisation on the player's part. ONCE YOU GET PAST THOSE HURDLES, it's a rewarding game that has a surprising amount of shit to do. Before parrywalking was discovered, the DS2 speedrun relied heavily on parkour skips. The fall damage is punishing, the movement is ass, but great rewards await the player with patience and skill to make DS2's jank work for them. I could go on, but you probably already get where I'm going with the rest of this ramble. Some people, unfortunately, don't want to git gud. I think that's the one bit of Cranky's advice that every Souls player ultimately forgets to heed until it's a touch too late.
@@JellyJman I'm not denying that, but if I had to make my point clearer: Demon's Souls is a less painful self-imposed torture simulator than Dark Souls 2 is.
Throughout this series, i feel you've had great points and you've dealt with the comparisons between the two versions objectively and meticulously. But i think you lessening the importance of enemy agro ranges, something that you've talked about before on how it makes scholar easier in certain areas, is a bit intellectually dishonest. In the lost Bastille, the agro ranges of the royal swordsmen were a good example for scholar actually being easier on purpose and providing a more reasonable enemy placement, but all of a sudden, Alonne knights agro-ing from half way into the next room, is suddenly seen as a fair thing? It's not "on theme" because it's a fortress as you've implied in the comments. A literal prison full of Royal swordsmen should, by this logic, maintain similar levels of agro. Also, that one Knight with the seemingly broken agro also is somehow aware of your presence and runs after you when you're on the platform with the bonfire that you unlock after the smelter demon is defeated. He doesn't actually get to you but the fsct that no other knights agro at the same time which shows that it, at the very least, wasn't intended to be that alert. Then there's the fact that there's another extra archer making the runback more difficult along with the extra enemies in the area. Two or three extra enemies isn't a big deal when they're just hollows. It's definitely a big deal when they're high-damage alonne knights chasing you to the end of the earth. All this, along with having to possibly deal with three invaders if the player dies, definitely makes scholar a lot more than "much harder" than vanilla.
>"Alonne knights agro-ing from half way into the next room, is suddenly seen as a fair thing?" Me at 6:26: "this part is one of the few areas that are actually harder in the Scholar version"
@@Domo3000 you do say it's harder, but the way you say it is not representative of how hard it actually is, especially for a first playthrough. You do admit scholar is harder but your wording in a lot of the video makes it sound like the complaints about the sholar version are played up or unwarranted, while you almost ignore or downplay the terrible agro range of many of the enemies in the outdoor area. Your conclusion is also worded in this manner.
@officeimpact6377 I like ds2. I used to deny it and swear it off before I played it, but iron keep just feels enemy spammy even when I play slow and fight evreything one on one
Tbh i never liked this place but it has more to do with the map structure it doesnt really feel like a real keep not to mention it doesnt feel like a souls game map. Other areas has better map shape.
I think for me, it’s mostly gameplay decisions of 2 specifically. A combination of adaptation being an unnecessary and honestly bad mechanic, and no fog invincibility.
I don't get what the problem is anyway. It's dark souls. The difficulty is why it's popular. It wish it was twice as hard. The more difficult the better
Many people just want the satisfaction of having beaten a hard game without actually putting in the effort. So when there's an optional hard side challenge like the Smelter Demon they get mad that they actually have to get good now.
@@Domo3000 dark souls is based around being hard the creator said so himself. It's difficulty just seemed fitting for the world he created. The reason people don't like the difficulty of ds2 is that it both hampers roleplaying and makes areas a slog to get through.
How is it a optional challenge you have to deal with the alone knights anyways if you want to progress to the next room. You have to deal with almost all of them to shut down the fires.
There are many ways things can be difficult, and not all of them are necessarily fun to deal with. I feel like the Iron Keep is pretty OK in this regard: while difficult, you can still get through it relatively easily and quickly if you are smart and careful enough to pick enemies 1v1, separate them, use terrain as cover from the archers (or staying on the move to avoid arrows), etc. It punishes you for being hasty and careless and rewards being being patient and crafty. For contrast, look at areas like the Iron Passage or Frigid Outskirts. They are definitely hard, but they are also pretty much universally considered some of the worst zones in the series. The former throws loads of enemies and debuffs at you in a boring cramped space while the latter is just a very long run with unavoidable OP encounters. and neither gives you any particularly interesting ways to approach it besides slogging through it or cheesing enemies in unintended ways. While difficult, both end up feeling like chore instead, with the only clear solution being just throwing more bodies at it (since these are supposed to be "co-op areas"). You can also look at the Bed of Chaos from DS1, which can instakill you by dropping you into a pit - it can be hard, but it's also considred to be one the worst bosses in the series since its difficulty mostly comes from DS1's janky jumping mechanics. Besides, Dark Souls really isn't all about difficulty either. I've been playing since DS1 and I no longer find the games all too difficult, but I still play them regularly due to the satisfying exploration, level design, combat, lore, etc.. If Souls games were only known as "difficult rage games," they would've been pretty quickly forgotten like Flappy Bird or something.
I didn't know that Alonne captain can backstab you, now i know
Backpunch
I have been cancelling/shortening door animations by rolling, but for some reason it never even occurred to me that you can roll during the fog gate animation
I agree that the changes to this area get overstated a lot to try to score an easy dunk on scholar, but I don't think this video tells the whole story. I think it's specifically the changes in the outdoor area that makes it feel so overwhelming, rather than the overall population. In vanilla you fight 3 knights one by one, two of whom only aggro when you get close. Meanwhile in scholar there are 3 knights who will charge at you all at once as soon as you step outside, and then another 4 once you step on the bridge. Sure it's only 3 extra knights in total, and you can take them out one at a time if you're quick, but the way they aggro in groups increases the pressure a lot.
The runback isn't the whole story, but I again think it's somewhat worse than you make out. The fact that most of the knights are concentrated in the one room means that if you try to run past only to get staggered in the fog door, you're done for. You could escape from or even fight the group of 3 in vanilla, but scholar's 7 at once is usually a death sentence. Also, and I think more importantly, the vanilla knights start much farther away from smelter's door. This can give you time to backstab the captain or bait him into an attack, especially if you did the skip, which makes it much easier to get through first try. If you try that in scholar, you'll get swarmed by the little guys before you can reach the door.
The beginning part of Iron Keep is probably the only part of Scholar I really don't like. The fact that Alonne Knights just seem to magically know my exact location and crawl out of the woodwork makes the beginning area feel like a clown car. It's a blessing that Smelter Demon isn't really that difficult if you prepare.
So you are upset that you are invading their keep and they dont act passive?
They rush you with enough delay that you’re usually fighting one at a time, as long as you don’t rush them. And a Mace +6 can deal with them rather easily.
@@pessolano461 at that point you can easily have a +10 Mace or a +4 Craftmans Hammer
@domo3000 yeah but on a first playthrough you're most likely not gonna have an op weapon like those
@@Domo3000 I was thinking of people who have heard the overexaggerated horror stories about Iron Keep and might feel intimidated. Having a Mace +6 be good enough to deal with them brings the threat level down a bit, you know?
one thing this game taught me is to never rush, never run ahead carelessly
most of the time you can avoid stupid deaths if you simply back out to fight in a safe area and look around
bro I need you to stop flexing your backstep skills, I don't think I've ever successfully used the s on a backstep
Lol 😊
What helped me was to visualize the active s: th-cam.com/video/0DC8cUnPClE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=zUbfol4DuWmasjwj
Rolling s start as soon as the animation starts, but for backsteps you are doing a small step backwards first and only then when you jump back you gain s.
So you have to dodge a bit earlier than you are used to.
If there is one thing that I learned from this area (or ds2 in general) is to always play with aggro lines and pick your targets and it was surely a helpful tip moving forward
I really like when sometimes you are encouraged to apply a more methodical aproach to your encounters
All the encounters that people typically use as evidence that the game has unfair enemy placements can be trivialized by being strategic instead of rushing.
But somehow the community listened to the biggest casuals that just try to speedrun through new areas instead of telling them to get good.
Honestly Demon’s Souls had this the most. There’s a lot of black phantom enemies that spawn only when you walk a few steps and can bait the rest
Im good at the game, this is why iron keep is my favorite place. I have no problems in iron keep
Yeah it's honestly a fun area. It just keeps you on your toes
Used to kinda hate it but I enjoy it now. I do think it's pretty bland outside of the fighting
Aside from the three scripted invasions, I really enjoyed Iron Keep on my first blind playthrough. Between Fencer Sharon and Armorer Denis, it felt like this was just going to be a super frequent invasion area, then Forlorn shows up. Being a blind playthrough, I had no idea what else was coming, and was kind of just waiting for that invasion text to show up after pulling more knights.
I... Genuinely didn't know you could cancel the fog wall animation... There is so much about DS 2 I never learned or felt like it wasn't worth my time learning because I didn't really like the game itself, and felt like it wasn't worth learning more about. I don't think it's a "bad" game like I used to, I think it is just *different* and I just didn't jive with it the way I did other Souls games. Either way, I am genuinely enjoying your content. I always love seeing other people's opinions on things, and don't mind being wrong! Keep it up!
Wow. You honestly gave an awesome point of view. You didn't enjoy it, but you didn't hate it. It simply wasn't your style so you moved on from it, which is very respectable. Showing that you're open to newer interpretations instead of just walking away from it is really cool. I'm a ds2 fanboy at heart but there's many reasons I can see why the game is avoided. It can be a lot for people unfamiliar, especially those who try to play it like the other.
Whenever I hear people complain about the agro range on the knights, I'm like, "well what did you expect? You are basically invading their castle. Did you expect them to let you waltz in?"
It's on theme. It's a heavily defended Fortress.
It's a Keep. It's designed to keep you out.
That's kinda a stupid argument to make, it's a game, it doesn't need to be realistic.
@@tranhuup "It doesn't need to be realistic"
Some level of realism is important to make the player feel immersed in that game world.
if you don't balance the fantasy and realism in lore, design, storytelling, you may get another Kingdom Hearts game.
@@Yarivenra ah yes. The realism of a volcano on top of a windmill
@@Yarivenragameplay > realism
It takes only a couple hits to defeat the enemies, but players prefer to not waste additional 2 seconds on every knight and risk wasting a lot more time on failed runbacks.
What is Dark Souls about? Running away from enemies? Avoiding enemies? Is it a stealth game? Is it a game about sprinting with obstacles?
If players don't enjoy fighting same enemies over and over, then why are they playing Dark Souls? Am I wrong? Am I weird if I like to engage in fight with enemies?
It's also worth mention that people who say that this area is bad just talk about the smelter demon runback like it's the hole area, they ignore the shortcuts, secrets, the various ways of dealing
with enemies (throwing them on lava, killing the turtle on the corridor with the guillotine, guiding the enemies to the fire throwing statues, activating the rotating flame thrower to kill the invader on ng+). DS2 haters love to use cherry picking to make the entire game look worse, and this area is the best example of that.
Yeah people really love to accuse the game of having unfair enemy placement, even when their own footage shows that they are just blindly running through new areas without paying any attention to all the traps they could use to deal with the enemies.
It's always a shame when they use the second half of Iron Keep to show how unfair DS2 is, even though that is one of the most fun areas in the whole series if you just engage with the level.
If there is one area where i can definitely say the enemies need to be reduced in numbers, it is the Smelter Area. It's basically the one W i would give DS2 haters, but even then it's not the massive flaw they pretend it is. The are is just way too small for the number of knights you fight, and as you keep approaching the bridge, it can feel like you are barely moving, as they keep coming at you. I would personally substitute some of the knights with patrolling turtle knights, that don't just bum rush you as soon as they see you from the other side of the map.
@domo3000 it's really hard in a first playthrough to "engage with the area" because u just die even if u play careful, and even if u don't die in the beginning of the area u might at the end and it's really annoying to have to do it again
And the best part is that you can always retreat and try to separate them.
Which will make any runback even longer.
Key word is "try"
Ngl I don't think I ever got invaded by Forlorn in Iron Keep XD
I'm always looking forward to it. Love the equipment you can buy after you've defeated a couple of them
How fortunate. When he first mentioned 2, I was thinking, "What about the third one" as I always get him if I die before Smelter.
@@Domo3000 Yeah I like their invasions, I think I more often get invaded at Huntsman Corps rather than Iron Keep.
@@safeforworkgaming6211 fun fact: forlorn is a woman!!! :3
I only got invaded by Dennis or Sharron once at a time, never happened that they invaded me in the same runback
1:03 “You can bait them out one at a time.” Hell yeah, this is my mantra for Iron Keep in general. You don’t have to pull a FeebleKing clown car and aggro everything if you are methodical.
I’m so glad you did this comparison. This whole series is badass. I still have the ability to play my OG DS2 on disc but I haven’t hooked up my XBOX 360 in about nine years. I was in the group that was gaslit into thinking SotFS was so much worse, even though I knew its critics were disingenuous about some things and that SotFS isn’t very ganky anyway (because I play it). But the comparisons I did were in my mind and relied on an ostensibly sketchy memory.
You are doing a service with these videos. Big Ups! I wish you the absolute best.
Thank you very much!
While I know it's a "lame" option, I think it's worth noting how little stamina damage the alonne knights do to either of the early full block shields. Both the drangleic shield and I believe it's called the knight's shield? It's the one you can buy from the blacksmith this is basically the drangleic shield but with less stability but also a little lighter. I believe with one of the chloranthy rings, a single alonne knight can be blocked almost forever.
In sotfs you can just kinda hold block in the smelter runback, and typically kill while they're stunned from their thrust attack with 2-3 r1s and repeat for the next knight, so killing them is never really a problem.
Great level. A lot of times it feels like the Knights are walking into your ambush instead of the other way around. If the optional boss is too difficult then you can always get the Belfry bonfire and teleport out of there to get one of the other three boss souls or keep pushing and just skip the optional boss. I feel the only way the level isnt fun is if you just do boss runbacks over and over without changing things up.
Thank you for defending my beloved ds2, i'm really grateful towards that and happy to discover your channel
Scholar is worse in this location because of wider enemies agro. In original, you can pick estus safety near the second bridge, and you don't need to be quick with this. In Scholar, enemies start to run towards you, so it's harder to renegerate health.
u just w8 for them, u don't even have to pull your enemies, u just w 8
That"s the scariest video to watch before sleep
Is very hard to avoid combat in the OG DS2. Thanks SOFTS
Vanilla's Iron Keep is all about aggro enemies 1 by 1 and how are you good at it. Aggro 2 Knights at the first bridge is much easier that it seems. You need only to make very-very short steps, and when you see the first Knight is going to you, then you must walk back to not agro the second Knight while you are fighting the first. It is similar as Huntsman's Copse 5 Executioners. And it is similar to all the location. In Scholar it is very hard, cause Knights have a bigger agro range, so near the second bridge in Vanilla you can easily defeat just 2 Knights 1 by 1. And in Scholar you need to defeat a bigger amount of enemies together.
One thing I've noticed throughout the many years of hearing people complaining about dark souls and Elden Ring is that it all boils down to skill issue. Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to sound elitist is just that I've seen countless times the story about how one used to hate certain game/area in the game but after putting some effort comes to enjoy or at least don't mind it anymore because they got good.
Which might also explains why DS2 gets more hate than the other entries: cuz it demands more from the player.
Yeah, but you don't need more skill, you just need to put in more time, that's why it's less fun than the other games
What software do you use to view player and enemy stats at 11:58?
DebugManager by LordRadai. It's also what I use for the hitbox visualization videos
@@Domo3000 thank you!
I used to despise scholars iron keep but I have it down to a tea, take my sweet ass time, and take the risky shortcut as I think you are better off not dropping the bridge
If you really, really suck at DS2, the ultimate method is just to grind out the path to Smelter until the Alonne Knights stop respawning. Yes, this takes quite a while, but you're probably gonna die to the Smelter Demon over and over again (since you really, really suck at DS2 in this scenario), and this makes the runback actually literally free, plus you'll have gotten enough souls for a ton of levels and a full set of the best phys+fire defense armor in the game
The awful part about SotFS Iron Keep is the obscene agro ranges on the enemies. They will agro from 500 ft away through a wall without any sort of warning or way to avoid them. And Alonne Knights are way too fast to be manegable in a gank scenario, you have to lure them out one at a time. But the only way to do that is to just trial and error your way into memorizing all the unseeable agro ranges.
Perhaps I'm just biased though, the time I spent trying to get past the Smelter Demon runback on my first playthrough was the most miserable experience I've had in a Soulsborne game.
just despawn every single enemy there and beat that smelter demon
Did that for my first playthrough farming for the armor and katana lol
Weee ❤
Having the bridge up is easier because you can jump across from the left
Weird question: does NG+/Ascetic increase group aggression values? I feel like ive noticed it in Shrine of Amana when i farm it for twinkling titanite. The hammer guys attack in groups more aggressively and dont back off as much i feel like idk
I also think it does.
Even during the game it feels like it. I always thought that the Royal Swordsmen in Lost Bastille fight less aggressively and less strategically than those in Drangleic Castle.
@@Domo3000 it would be interesting to know if they have different AI or values or something. The Bastille ones are much closer to becoming forlorn hollows giving up it seems
I’ve gone through this place both in vanilla and scholar and don’t really have any issues with it. I also almost never do the smelter demon skip or the jump to the broken stairway to get to him on a first playthrough of a character.
Now this place in NG+ is actually hard as hell. There are Seven (7) red phantoms in NG+ in scholar 😢😢😢😢😢😢
6 captains, one in the entry way hallway, one in the lava pit ladder, one where the zweihandler is, two in the furnace you turn off, one in the lava walkway after smelter demon, and the red phantom turtle cosplayer guarding the last bonfire before old iron king. 😩😩😩
So, how did you skip Smelter Demon? As I remember it is impossible at the first playtrough, cause to open the iron door near the second bridge you need to turn off the fire near the Eygil's Idol bonfire. Or you told about this just for NG+?
The fire in that room isn't linked to Eygil's Idol. There's a wheel you can turn after lowering the first half of the bridge
Aggroing only one knight at the Threshold Bridge is really easy. You literally have to try to aggro them both for it to happen. If you constantly aggro both without knowing why that's just skill issue.
1:20 you don't have to go so much to the right to aggro this guy, you can go to the corner between the fence and the pillar, I've always done it like that
the only time the second one aggros too is if you then go right instead of back out to a safe distance, the middle of this bridge for example
It's wild to see that final Smelter Skip run (which i'd argue is the alternate path, not the main one, due to how far apart bonfires are if you don't have access to Smelter's one) looking as chill as it did
I've played only scholar and don't think I had a good time in Iron Keep in any of my playthroughs. What I remember being infuriating was the aggro range of the knights in the open furnace area before smelter. There's a handful of archers so that in most places you had one or, often, two shooting at you and knights would come running from different spots in a way that was hard to control. Even if they come at you staggered, they start coming really quick so that really early on you're already "opted in" to like, half the room's enemies
There are less enemies on the path to the next bonfire than for the path to Smelter Demon, and it's easier to skip them. Which is why I'd argue that it's the main path and that struggling players should come back later for the Smelter Demon.
@@Domo3000 IMO the problem is more that after smelter you have a whole lot more before you can get to the next bonfire.
The one for the belfry is easy enough but then you need to run the belfry to get back on the Iron Keep path. The big lava platform room is one that, while fun with all the contraptions, can get messy in a hurry pretty easily and the tiny corridors with the guillotines and iron warriors can also be tricky to deal with. it's not always easy to bait them into the traps, weapons bouncing off the sides, etc...
So while I agree that, yeah, it's easier to get to the platform just after Smelter than going to the boss itself, the stretch from the first bonfire under the bridge all the way to the one on the bull's head is quite the trip to take which is why to me that'd more of an alternate path instead (also, is it really standard if you're missing out on Ring of Blades +1? =P )
@@VileLasagna running through the Belfry is easy and then you are back in the lava platform room which you would also need to get past from the Smelter Demon bonfire, so it's pretty much the same in my opinion.
@@Domo3000 definitely not too bad a run after you cleared the non respawning phantoms, even if it is quite annoying, yeah
All my memories may or may not be tainted by not liking either Iron Keep or Brume Tower, lol
This and the run to the chariot are the only areas where I'm like "what were they thinking"
Iron keep feels somewhat inconsistent for me, sometimes I will aggro more knights despite feeling like I'm not doing anything different
And I simply hate the chariot run, it's the one time I get tired of slowly pulling every enemy
By the way any tips to deal with the undead crypt and never ending hollows ringing bells?
Just kill the hollows before they ring the bell? Scholar version of undead crypt is way easier than vanilla.
Also the undead chariot run back can be cheesed by just baiting out the guys in the trees one by one like it’s demons souls.
For the Chariot you can just run through and jump to the platform at the end of the bridge and then watch the enemies fall down when they walk back.
Or just running straight through by running a small loop before the fog gate: th-cam.com/video/hBO0-9krp0k/w-d-xo.htmlsi=qoOAXAal4Qmn52C-
For Undead Crypt there's a limited amount of bell ringing Hollows. The first one spawns next to the bell, then another one outside that small room to the left and then a third one close to the bell again.
@@JellyJman honestly it felt like whack a mole, I didn't even know they were limited cause they kept popping up I thought I was doing somethig wrong so it turns out I just have to keep killing them?
@@Domo3000 okke, thanks, I'll have to learn how to get that jump right cause I remember I'm terrible at it
I've always kinda hated going through Iron keep in both versions. Something about the way Alonne knights attack always throws me off and that area near the smelter demon in scholar could be really miserable.
This area is hell
Can you make it a little darker I can almost see what is going on
10:36 really I thought that it does lol 😂
I swear that there was an npc invader after the iron clad breaks the bridge in sotfs
It was Forlon that invaded you, it’s rng
It's the same Forlorn that invaded me in the large open space.
He's a rare invader and if you defeated him in an area he won't show up again.
So I'm not actually 100% sure if there are two distinct Forlorns in this area, but to me it always felt like defeating him in the first spawn point stops him from showing up in the second one.
So I assume that it's just one Forlorn in the Iron Keep, but I also could just have been lucky.
@Domo3000 I see, thank you for the insight!
I've played DX9 and DX11, and honestly... I don't particularly care for Iron Keep in either version. If given the choice, I'd rather skip Iron Keep for as long as I can and do literally any other Old Soul. Black Gulch is terrible, but it has plenty of cheesy farming spots for titanite if you're willing to roll around the oil pits with a torch (thanks ymfah). I'm quite fond of Lost Bastille / Sinner's Rise, though I detest Scholar's choice of including a lesser Flexile Sentry in an area with knee-deep water leading up to Sinner herself. Every leg toward Duke's Dear Freja is (relatively) easy to clear and generally a net positive in terms of loot, and Freja herself is a (relatively) easy boss if you have a torch.
I used to hate DS2 so much when I first played it back in 2015 on my PS4. After almost 10 years, my feelings have softened dramatically. DS2 has replay value where DS1/DS3/Bloodborne have limited or otherwise none. However, all these years of watching people discuss DS2 have solidified one feeling more than any other within me: it's a painful experience, there's a ton of jank, and it requires a fair bit of acclimatisation on the player's part. ONCE YOU GET PAST THOSE HURDLES, it's a rewarding game that has a surprising amount of shit to do. Before parrywalking was discovered, the DS2 speedrun relied heavily on parkour skips. The fall damage is punishing, the movement is ass, but great rewards await the player with patience and skill to make DS2's jank work for them. I could go on, but you probably already get where I'm going with the rest of this ramble.
Some people, unfortunately, don't want to git gud. I think that's the one bit of Cranky's advice that every Souls player ultimately forgets to heed until it's a touch too late.
To be fair all the souls games are jank. Especially DS1 and Demon’s Souls lol. They did tone it done in Elden Ring.
@@JellyJman I'm not denying that, but if I had to make my point clearer: Demon's Souls is a less painful self-imposed torture simulator than Dark Souls 2 is.
Throughout this series, i feel you've had great points and you've dealt with the comparisons between the two versions objectively and meticulously.
But i think you lessening the importance of enemy agro ranges, something that you've talked about before on how it makes scholar easier in certain areas, is a bit intellectually dishonest.
In the lost Bastille, the agro ranges of the royal swordsmen were a good example for scholar actually being easier on purpose and providing a more reasonable enemy placement, but all of a sudden, Alonne knights agro-ing from half way into the next room, is suddenly seen as a fair thing?
It's not "on theme" because it's a fortress as you've implied in the comments. A literal prison full of Royal swordsmen should, by this logic, maintain similar levels of agro.
Also, that one Knight with the seemingly broken agro also is somehow aware of your presence and runs after you when you're on the platform with the bonfire that you unlock after the smelter demon is defeated. He doesn't actually get to you but the fsct that no other knights agro at the same time which shows that it, at the very least, wasn't intended to be that alert.
Then there's the fact that there's another extra archer making the runback more difficult along with the extra enemies in the area. Two or three extra enemies isn't a big deal when they're just hollows. It's definitely a big deal when they're high-damage alonne knights chasing you to the end of the earth.
All this, along with having to possibly deal with three invaders if the player dies, definitely makes scholar a lot more than "much harder" than vanilla.
>"Alonne knights agro-ing from half way into the next room, is suddenly seen as a fair thing?"
Me at 6:26: "this part is one of the few areas that are actually harder in the Scholar version"
@@Domo3000 you do say it's harder, but the way you say it is not representative of how hard it actually is, especially for a first playthrough.
You do admit scholar is harder but your wording in a lot of the video makes it sound like the complaints about the sholar version are played up or unwarranted, while you almost ignore or downplay the terrible agro range of many of the enemies in the outdoor area.
Your conclusion is also worded in this manner.
Tbh iron keep in any version is just bad.
because u don't know how to play the game
@AtreyusNinja ah yes, clearly ds2 is a perfect game beyond any critism my bad for questioning the genius of the game
@@scorpiowarrior7841People like you give me hope. I thought these ds2 deniers would never wake up.
@officeimpact6377 I like ds2. I used to deny it and swear it off before I played it, but iron keep just feels enemy spammy even when I play slow and fight evreything one on one
what do you mean 'one of the few bosses' with a tricky runback? This game had godawful runbacks throughout
You must have bad memory as the vast majority of runbacks are short and easy.
Tbh i never liked this place but it has more to do with the map structure it doesnt really feel like a real keep not to mention it doesnt feel like a souls game map. Other areas has better map shape.
I think for me, it’s mostly gameplay decisions of 2 specifically. A combination of adaptation being an unnecessary and honestly bad mechanic, and no fog invincibility.
you can't ruin, what was always shit
I don't get what the problem is anyway. It's dark souls. The difficulty is why it's popular. It wish it was twice as hard. The more difficult the better
Many people just want the satisfaction of having beaten a hard game without actually putting in the effort.
So when there's an optional hard side challenge like the Smelter Demon they get mad that they actually have to get good now.
@@Domo3000 dark souls is based around being hard the creator said so himself. It's difficulty just seemed fitting for the world he created. The reason people don't like the difficulty of ds2 is that it both hampers roleplaying and makes areas a slog to get through.
How is it a optional challenge you have to deal with the alone knights anyways if you want to progress to the next room. You have to deal with almost all of them to shut down the fires.
There are many ways things can be difficult, and not all of them are necessarily fun to deal with.
I feel like the Iron Keep is pretty OK in this regard: while difficult, you can still get through it relatively easily and quickly if you are smart and careful enough to pick enemies 1v1, separate them, use terrain as cover from the archers (or staying on the move to avoid arrows), etc. It punishes you for being hasty and careless and rewards being being patient and crafty.
For contrast, look at areas like the Iron Passage or Frigid Outskirts. They are definitely hard, but they are also pretty much universally considered some of the worst zones in the series. The former throws loads of enemies and debuffs at you in a boring cramped space while the latter is just a very long run with unavoidable OP encounters. and neither gives you any particularly interesting ways to approach it besides slogging through it or cheesing enemies in unintended ways. While difficult, both end up feeling like chore instead, with the only clear solution being just throwing more bodies at it (since these are supposed to be "co-op areas").
You can also look at the Bed of Chaos from DS1, which can instakill you by dropping you into a pit - it can be hard, but it's also considred to be one the worst bosses in the series since its difficulty mostly comes from DS1's janky jumping mechanics.
Besides, Dark Souls really isn't all about difficulty either. I've been playing since DS1 and I no longer find the games all too difficult, but I still play them regularly due to the satisfying exploration, level design, combat, lore, etc.. If Souls games were only known as "difficult rage games," they would've been pretty quickly forgotten like Flappy Bird or something.
Man, these videos are some next-level coping. The game just has a ton of flaws. There's nothing wrong with still liking it. I do.
I dont get what you mean. There are good points made in these videos.
Where’s the cope? These videos literally compare SotFS to Vanilla side-by-side and note changes, differences, etc.