Ok.. next step.. to make the most power and the most torque from that camshaft... dial the cam so intake valve opens at 15degree btdc And exhaust valve closing at 15degree atdc I found out this is the best balance of low-mid-high range of camshaft installation method by centering the intake opening and exhaust closing event...
Wow.. these are buckets right, direct cam->valve. That is not much lift to make such good power. I'm playing with an old 12 valve Honda engine myself just to see what I can get out of it. The only thing I can do cam wise is grinds, but my stock valve lift is ~9.3mm and it doesn't make anywhere near your stock :/
@@DrThander They are designed for stock shim setup. can run more lift the more duration there is, as can run a lower ramp angle on the cam. biggest in their stock shim range is 10mm
He did it wrong, now he has 2x inlet cams! to do it properly you first need to install a 2nd oil cap on the exhaust side. Lost all respect for this channel now.
1:05 hahahaha. love it. Not a bad improvement, even without adjusting the inlet cam. Also didnt think you would get another 6kw at various points with adjusting inlet cam, good increase. Man i love these motors.
Sorry my bad english, i am from Brazil, i think comment in other videos more my english is very basic. This time i need, your job is fantastic, thank you for share your results.
130kw n/a is mega! I remember when I had turbod my Corolla and it made 130kw at wheels and I was stoked as! As a comparison the stock 4agze smallport only made 95kw atw. Its been at least 10 years since playing around with the old 4age and have always wondered what worked to make power. In the end, it was cheaper to just keep throwing boost as it. Also earned a sub!
Why don't you try doing a dyno run with your aircon running from the cabin into the intake or something like that and see if you get more power from it. See if it drops IAT
Nearly fell off my chair laughing... I don't think I can install my cams that way since my oil filler feeds directly to the sump, I assume I can do a stroked crank upgrade that way though ;P (My engine is a 30 year old flat Italian)
Can you put stock vs new camshaft specs in the description? Just would be nice for comparison of changes. Thanks for great video! Love your camshaft install process! Shame my E36's cams can't be installed and degreed that easily! :D
Always happy to see your videos pop up in my notifications. Keep up the good work. Is the oil pump in the Golden turd still stock? Reason I ask is because my first 4AGE spun a bearing on No. 4 at 7000. What mods would you recommend for keeping the oil system happy?
They love to run bigends. stock in this engine. pumps are fine to 9000rpm, long as have the late model pump. a few things i do is; drop the oil pickup down a bit as they sit quite high off the floor of sump. other one being put a restictor in the block to limit oil supply to head, as they like to fill the head with oil at high rpm. the smallport heads with external oil drain still do the same thing just not quite as bad as bigport
It would be great to accumulate all n/a mods into a single video; like afr, ignition, cam timing, bigger cams, headers, velocity stacks and so on. What each stage does to the power and power band.
that would take me like a month to do haha. a lot of the info is already here, so can create a playlist so all the relevant videos are together at some stage.
i've tried these cams turbo before. may revisit it again one day. they are a little aggressive to work nicely with turbo setup. dont play nicely with the bottom end of the curve, since cant make the exhaust side work like a na setup. if can get my hands on something a bit less aggressive will try them
That nasty bro, that what I’m been waiting for a long time, thanks so much bro, I just have thomas from kelford cam custom made 278 266...for me hope fully, I get that kind of hp...running x-purt 525 injector, ported head, oversized valve 1mm over, arp big end, and head stud, but microtech lt10c ...you think I get that much kilowatt bro at the wheel...
As always, depends if your bolt ons work together with everything else. think im going to make a video with all the wrong bolt on parts to show how much it screws things up
Interesting how the cam timing doesn't do much on this engine. When I had a mild custom cam made for my Buick I had the cam ground 5 deg retarded and that moved the torque curve up by about 900rpm compared to a similar profile I'd tested on the dyno before and made great power for the size of the cam. Stock profile is around 180/190 0.400 lift and mine was 212/212 0.470 lift. Although I had other supporting mods like headers and good airbox, I gained 55% over stock at the wheels.
So this brings a potential video idea to mind Itd be amazing to see a video with a stock-ported head, but big cams, and then your hand ported head, with those same cams- And see how much power gain you get from the porting itself.
will be doing something like that soon. but only on stock cams. as only have a baseline for stock head and stock cams. not expecting a big change in power
@@Garage4age Thats awesome! Looking forward to it. Too bad its not with some after market cams in there too, would be neat to see how much of a difference a port job makes with cams- But either way! Cant wait to see that
Thinking of these cams for my build, very handy video! To what RPM do you think these will still continue to make power? If I wanted 9k are these a good option?
depends on rest of your setup , head and bolt ons. how far will carry the power. cams only one piece of the puzzle. on this setup by 9000rpm would probably be down around 120kw from the high 120's peak. most of the time these engines like to have peak around 8500, can get peak power higher, but generally have to lose a stack of power through mid range to do it
Great video. How accurate is the 1500 to 2500rpm range? If one were to use this cam for a daily driven car it seems like alot of power to loose down low despite gaining alot almost everywhere else.
I wouldn't use these cams if in a lot of stop start traffic. since doesn't idle or run smooth at low rpm (sub 2000rpm) but otherwise fine. part throttle different to what dyno shows here at wide open. intake and exhaust setup needs to be correct also. I have tuned a few cars with the same cams and they are down on power between 4-5000rpm
@@Garage4age whats the most power youve seen running on stock 4age cams? Probably the bluetops then? Would really like an ae86 corolla as next problem but im worried it will be too slow if i dont sacrifice alot of daily driver manners
@@OEMplusRESTO most i could get out of bluetop head and cams was 113kw at wheels. maybe could stretch that to 115kw with more compression. most dont get anywhere near that though. you can time the cams so it runs nicer down low but will lose midrange. or get something inbetween stock and 193b will run nicer. watch this video if you havent already. shows alot of stuff building up bluetop head th-cam.com/video/Ik7tK_zmZCM/w-d-xo.html
hey mate love your channel! very kiwi :D I'm interested to know, did you do anything to the IGN timing map when changing cams? particularly when doing the big step up from factory cam to the kelford profile? cheers man love ya work
same ignition advance used on all the runs here. The timing needed for the bigger cams is pretty close to the same as for the small cams. The bigger cams usually need a little less timing to make best power. due to the engine having higher cylinder fill / making more power. much like a turbo engine will need less timing advance. pretty much all the tests on my na engines are at timing numbers, that going a degree or 2 either way will make the same power
@@Garage4age thanks for your reply man... that's interesting! from watching your video on IGN timing I would have assumed you found MBT for one of the cams at least but I'm surprised that you didn't have to change timing for the kelford cam given it's such a different profile in lift and duration. Have you changed the IGN map at all since going to the bigger cam? Sorry I just realised I asked this question on a clip with absolutely nothing to do with cams or IGN timing :D
Yeah as above is more the power the engine is making rather than the cams directly. engine doesnt see the cams on combustion stroke. Its just more air and fuel (if said cams are anygood) which will need less advance. but its only a small change. my good engine that makes 150kw will make best power only a couple degrees less than what the stock cam engine makes best power at. changing the shape of the combustion chamber and the likes has a more direct effect on ignition needed.
@@Garage4age yep I follow ya! makes sense. thanks for the detailed replies! enjoying your videos man they've got really solid engineering grounding with a simple take home. not easy at all to do that!
So actual upgrades are reworked head, cams, itbs, complete exhaust, fuel system and ecu just to be clear, by the way what fuel pump do you running and one question off topic what is diameter of the throttle body on the stock intake 😊 do you think that stock intake would already lowered actual resaults, at 105kw setup i simply havent spotted any big gains over the stock intake, thx for answers 😊
Yeah thats about it, it has toda valve springs. and toda 3.7kg flywheel also. from memory the stock intake has a 54 or 55mm throttle plate. It made pretty decent gains with the long runners on the itb's over the stock intake. remembering it doesn't make much power to start with. pump is just some old bosch pump thats been in the car forever
I dont know if you'll see this, but my 16v bigport 7 rib blew the head so im taking the time to rebuild the motor. I'm mainly daily driving the car 10k+ miles a year but I also want to be able to reliably track and autocross the car. Do you have any reccomendations for that aspect? I dont really want to increase power much right now because I want to build on driver mod until I hit the limit of the car and then improve.
basic things i usually do; lower the oil pickup in the sump a little. if your at high rpm a lot put a restictor in block to prevent all the oil ending up in head. clean up the bumps in combustion chambers. .5mm skim off the head. .8mm trd gasket - check deck height first as they can get tight with block skim. smallport pistons. good idea to throw in aftermarket valve springs, so if you want to do a cam swap later on its ready to go. arp rod bolts are good piece of mind if going over 8krpm
cant do a adjustable wheel on exhaust side due to the cas its running. but from past experience may have got couple more kw in those mid range areas where the inlet picked up. far less than what the inlet cam does anyway. unless the cam is quite far off to start with
Curious to know If you have a set of silver top throttle bodies laying around. Would love to see what differences you'd get. Seems to be a lot of arguments over the internet about st vs bt itbs on 16v's. Both on stock motors, slightly modified and fully modified.
no silivertops hanging around. the throttles on it are actually modified bt with 47mm plates. at this power the stock bt 45's would be no difference. but would think the st would be pretty borderline, way back i done a test restricting the 45mm's down on an engine with similar power to this and it lost power
Its torque measured at rollers. curve correct. numbers aren't. pretty much all dynos work like this. but the ones that show "correct" numbers, have a calculation from either manually entered engine rpm numbers or a rpm pickup off engine. my dyno software doesn't have it
Really nice video. Can you show maybe some tricks to build a reliable 4age. Or 4agte or make it more reliable. And Why dont you test a 7age?(just intrested. I know the block is weaker)
4a cheaper. you couldn't do this with a stock 7a bottom end. Yeah that's the thing. you really dont have to do much to them to make a reliable 4age/t. unless pushing big numbers. would be a pretty short video.
G-4age, you ever mess around with the Toyota R-series? (18R, 20R, 22R) If so, for NA power how does the 4age stack up? It's got a significant displacement disadvantage, but I imagine the 4AGE has superior head design and camshaft selection.
dont 4k's come stock with 3/4 race cams anyway? Or are you wanting to go full hectic with the full race cam? That would be far to lumpy to do a filler cap install, even if you had one. Assuming you have fcr carbs to go with that dry sump, you could section the cam in 4 and feed them in simultaneously, watch your fingers in the slides
better off to get new cams. can only go so far with regrinds and need to reduce base circle to do it. so have to add lash caps to extend the valve stems to get clearances in spec. wont be able to go as big as the cams in this vid with regrinds.
Have you evem driven the car with the turd motor on it yet or is it sitting on the dyno since its got installed? 🤣🤣 Amazing work, will refer to your cam install guide some day🤣
Cant beat honda for na engines. but the cam profile im using here looks to be around the same as factory vtec profile. so its actually doing pretty good at 170whp. also remember these engines are an older design.
Tbh the 4age doesn't have any system in place to change Cam timing or Camshaft profile through out the RPM range and slight lower compression ratio (I believe and I think he using small port pistons instead). Its inevitable that B series are better. But I didn't expect him to be making 130kw by just slap some cams on it and adjusting the fuelling on that 4age.
Older design, but better quality and over engineers....not that pussy aluminium block no web to support, it can only handle so much,,,plus newer design, who make the most powerful 3 cylinder engine right now is it toyota or Honda.....
@@Garage4age I was thinking about getting one, what do you think about buying an old eddy brake Dyno and make/buy a modern day controller is this a good ideia?
A lot of people are doing this now. most use yourdyno control, or sport devices if want a higher end product. I will probably switch to one of them, if have any major issues with my setup, as its not supported anymore. if you are on facebook there is a "diy dyno" page. some good info pops up now and then.
I guess the Kelford cams have more duration ? just remember that max gas flow at the IN valve is @ 0.25 valve diameter, when you say 'advancing the cam' are you meaning into or away from engine rotation
yeh specs are pinned in comment at top of both kelford and stock. advanced so forward into engine rotation. so the inlet cam opens earlier and has more overlap with exhaust cam
@@Garage4age Sorry , but I don't see a comparison pinned in your comment section, there is something in the video but is unreadable . anyway advancing the cam will generally improve bottom end but I have no idea of O/L as you have no figures for the EX cam, so it may have no bearing on the result. Too much IN adv will likely show up as IN reversion that you may see at the IN trumpets .... but the extra duration sure showed up in the top end ! ( extra lift may also show up as duration as valve accel to that lift exposes the valve to better flow rates longer with in that duration ) ....great effort ...ta
@@bobawatsit No offense but how small is your screen? i can read it on my phone haha. here is a link to the cam spec on kelford site: www.kelfordcams.com/nz/camshafts/toyota/4a-ge-16v/193-b-camshaft-set.html . I did a quick measure after installing and the numbers were pretty close to whats on the cam card, on the factory marks. a lot of people struggle to make numbers around the 4500rpm mark on these engines when going to bigger cams. mostly due to the bolt on selection they have used.
@@Garage4age Ok, I did a look at Kelford specs, I wish the cam grinders would stick to the SAE convention of lobe duration measured @ .006 " lift ....anyway those cams as a set have approx 70 deg of O/L and 280 odd deg duration ...that is getting on toward a very fast road or semi track cam, that's why you see a good improvement in the top end ....I don't know if this test was against factory spec IN / EX cams as I was surprised how little the bottom end performance was affected
@@bobawatsit was vs factory cams yes. from what ive found on the net they are 7.1mm lift and 232 degree duration, measured at what lift i have no idea, but would assume advertised. they are pretty small. as my above post its holding the bottom end well due to the bolt on selection. on following sheet the red line is my setup in this video. the blue line is another car with same engine spec and same cams. but different bolt on mods, different intake, headers, exhaust etc. garage4ag.files.wordpress.com/2021/01/193b-10-ad-v-zac.png if all goes to plan will have a vid out over next few weeks showing what effect the bolt on stuff has
Yeah this junk made a few more kw than my "stockish" 20v the first time i ran it up with the stock intake and the likes on it. the 20v made 102kw. also the cams i put in this engine probably a little bigger than poncams
@@ryanhumphreys4805 was pre dyno, when went to the 47mm. if i recall correctly there wasn't much if any change in the fueling. so likely minimal to no gain. but the engine was making quite a bit less power back then, probably not a lot more than than engine in this vid. I did restrict the throttles down a few mm to see if any loss before opening them up to 47mm and it did loose some power. so 45 must have only just been big enough
work on the bolt on parts. my first engine i done way back, had much bigger cams than this. but didn't make any power, from memory 105kw was the most it ever made.
Im pretty much out of hand me down parts from the good engine. So likely it wont make much more power than this. but Ive got lots more to test on it. i haven't got to the reason i actually built it yet. still work in progress...
So I would say that if it works more or less in this way on other engines too this is also a myth busted (bwwwaaaaaa) regarding the need to raise the ratio when going for longer durations cams for not loosling midrange (a loss under 2k is not to be considered in my opinion, even if present). Nice :-)
doesn't idle too smooth anymore! esp after advancing the inlet cam. the right bolt on bits are helping hold up the bottom end on this setup. i tuned one with the same cams in it, the other day. it was down 20kw at 5000rpm, only 7kw different peak.
I’m curious if swapping the cams produces more power ie longer duration on the exhaust cam. I see you’re running distributor-less (as I noticed no distributor gear on the other cam) so wouldn’t be an issue to give it a try. I have hks 264 intake and 256 exhaust in my 4age. I watched Richard Holdener’s reverse pattern cam vid the other day. He demonstrated that in an LS application a longer duration exhaust cam made more power than a longer duration intake cam, so it got me thinking about my setup in the 4ag. th-cam.com/video/gaPlbqHq_4k/w-d-xo.html
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If anyone was wondering factory vs kelford 193b specs are as follows
factory 232degree @ ?? lift , 7.1mm lift
193b - inlet - 284 degree @ 0.3mm lift - 244 degree @ 1mm lift - 9.45mm lift
--------exhaust - 278 degree @ 0.3mm lift -236 degree @ 1mm lift - 8.80mm lift
Wont shim over buckets get destroyed at that lift? That's what the internet always tells me. Great content as always!
Ok.. next step.. to make the most power and the most torque from that camshaft...
dial the cam so intake valve opens at 15degree btdc
And
exhaust valve closing at 15degree atdc
I found out this is the best balance of low-mid-high range of camshaft installation method by centering the intake opening and exhaust closing event...
Wow.. these are buckets right, direct cam->valve. That is not much lift to make such good power.
I'm playing with an old 12 valve Honda engine myself just to see what I can get out of it. The only thing I can do cam wise is grinds, but my stock valve lift is ~9.3mm and it doesn't make anywhere near your stock :/
@@DrThander They are designed for stock shim setup. can run more lift the more duration there is, as can run a lower ramp angle on the cam. biggest in their stock shim range is 10mm
@@AmirPomen At what lift? inlet sounds very late and would be very peaky. It set roughly a 38deg btdc @1mm lift ivo . 12deg atdc evc
The cam install process made me laugh hard 😂😂😂👍🏻🤘🏻
He did it wrong, now he has 2x inlet cams! to do it properly you first need to install a 2nd oil cap on the exhaust side. Lost all respect for this channel now.
@@mattteee2973 the second intake cam is a VTAK YO cam 🤓
Yea I think @ThisOldTony helped with that cam install
This channel just gets better and better that was hilarious
That was some TOT-Installation-procedure! 😄
I was waiting for a TOT reference, lol
A cultured man you are sir!
Finnaly learned how to install cam! Very useful, thanks!
1:05 hahahaha. love it. Not a bad improvement, even without adjusting the inlet cam. Also didnt think you would get another 6kw at various points with adjusting inlet cam, good increase. Man i love these motors.
The camshaft installation in the engine was just... perfect!
I laugh a lot...
Thank you for your work.
20 kw is a nice improvement, now needs high comp pistons, and its a race car
i wonder what kind of power and torque would adding more compression entail :D
@@hojnikb a lot in these engines
Sorry my bad english, i am from Brazil, i think comment in other videos more my english is very basic.
This time i need, your job is fantastic, thank you for share your results.
Nice gains with almost no losses at lower rpm.
Loved the way you installed those cams!
Many thanks from Transilvania . Respect for the time you share with us.
The way you installed those camshafts, no wonder the seal failed 🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂
Glad someone finally showed a realistic cam install.
Tell me about it. So much misinformation out there
Would love to see these type of videos done with a 20valve
Mahnnnnn... I haven't laughed so hard in a while when u done the cam "install" 😂😂
130kw n/a is mega! I remember when I had turbod my Corolla and it made 130kw at wheels and I was stoked as! As a comparison the stock 4agze smallport only made 95kw atw. Its been at least 10 years since playing around with the old 4age and have always wondered what worked to make power. In the end, it was cheaper to just keep throwing boost as it. Also earned a sub!
Did you change your agze cams?
@@randomtoyotadude8952 Nah just stock everything, apart from injectors.
I tried that cam install..it actually works...thanks..
You should be tunning cam of escape. cool
Iae Milan, vc por aqui! Kk
That a nasty install bro, almost wake up the sheep, hahaha, just kidding bro....no offence...
Thought I was doing pretty good. didn't even use a hammer this time
I really can't wait to get my dyno built
Extremely good! Thanks
Sounds a lot nicer
Why don't you try doing a dyno run with your aircon running from the cabin into the intake or something like that and see if you get more power from it.
See if it drops IAT
Very good video !!! Fast installing .....
Wow that picked up a lot straightaway
When i finally get 4age car again i know where im coming for advice
19kw gain nice, now do high comp Pistons for both cams
Nearly fell off my chair laughing... I don't think I can install my cams that way since my oil filler feeds directly to the sump, I assume I can do a stroked crank upgrade that way though ;P (My engine is a 30 year old flat Italian)
That cam install hahaha, will be sure to try that.
Can you put stock vs new camshaft specs in the description?
Just would be nice for comparison of changes.
Thanks for great video! Love your camshaft install process! Shame my E36's cams can't be installed and degreed that easily! :D
Will pin a comment at the top with specs
Always happy to see your videos pop up in my notifications. Keep up the good work.
Is the oil pump in the Golden turd still stock?
Reason I ask is because my first 4AGE spun a bearing on No. 4 at 7000.
What mods would you recommend for keeping the oil system happy?
They love to run bigends. stock in this engine. pumps are fine to 9000rpm, long as have the late model pump. a few things i do is; drop the oil pickup down a bit as they sit quite high off the floor of sump. other one being put a restictor in the block to limit oil supply to head, as they like to fill the head with oil at high rpm. the smallport heads with external oil drain still do the same thing just not quite as bad as bigport
Great info thanks
Pfff, only rookies do that this way.
True OG´s change their cams through exhaust muffler :P
Impressive bump in powah!
yeah noob here. i haven't mastered that way yet. so didn't want to look bad on the internet
Installed my 3sge cams though intake manifold 🤣
It would be great to accumulate all n/a mods into a single video; like afr, ignition, cam timing, bigger cams, headers, velocity stacks and so on. What each stage does to the power and power band.
that would take me like a month to do haha. a lot of the info is already here, so can create a playlist so all the relevant videos are together at some stage.
@@Garage4age That would also be great!
@@Garage4age Bump! We'd love to see the golden turd NA playlist!
@@AreadLeano there are 2 vids on my channel I put up awhile ago, that put everything together. One on bigport one on smallport
When you do the cam install does it just push the old ones out of the exhaust?
Great video and very informative as always. Would be interesting to see how cams affect forced induction. Would you expect to see even more gains?
i've tried these cams turbo before. may revisit it again one day. they are a little aggressive to work nicely with turbo setup. dont play nicely with the bottom end of the curve, since cant make the exhaust side work like a na setup. if can get my hands on something a bit less aggressive will try them
That nasty bro, that what I’m been waiting for a long time, thanks so much bro, I just have thomas from kelford cam custom made 278 266...for me hope fully, I get that kind of hp...running x-purt 525 injector, ported head, oversized valve 1mm over, arp big end, and head stud, but microtech lt10c ...you think I get that much kilowatt bro at the wheel...
As always, depends if your bolt ons work together with everything else. think im going to make a video with all the wrong bolt on parts to show how much it screws things up
You mean keep it all factory bolt and torque spec, don’t used arp....cheers bro
Interesting how the cam timing doesn't do much on this engine. When I had a mild custom cam made for my Buick I had the cam ground 5 deg retarded and that moved the torque curve up by about 900rpm compared to a similar profile I'd tested on the dyno before and made great power for the size of the cam. Stock profile is around 180/190 0.400 lift and mine was 212/212 0.470 lift. Although I had other supporting mods like headers and good airbox, I gained 55% over stock at the wheels.
So this brings a potential video idea to mind
Itd be amazing to see a video with a stock-ported head, but big cams, and then your hand ported head, with those same cams- And see how much power gain you get from the porting itself.
will be doing something like that soon. but only on stock cams. as only have a baseline for stock head and stock cams. not expecting a big change in power
@@Garage4age Thats awesome! Looking forward to it. Too bad its not with some after market cams in there too, would be neat to see how much of a difference a port job makes with cams- But either way! Cant wait to see that
Awesome video! Good job! Very inspiring
Thinking of these cams for my build, very handy video! To what RPM do you think these will still continue to make power? If I wanted 9k are these a good option?
depends on rest of your setup , head and bolt ons. how far will carry the power. cams only one piece of the puzzle. on this setup by 9000rpm would probably be down around 120kw from the high 120's peak. most of the time these engines like to have peak around 8500, can get peak power higher, but generally have to lose a stack of power through mid range to do it
Great video. How accurate is the 1500 to 2500rpm range? If one were to use this cam for a daily driven car it seems like alot of power to loose down low despite gaining alot almost everywhere else.
I wouldn't use these cams if in a lot of stop start traffic. since doesn't idle or run smooth at low rpm (sub 2000rpm) but otherwise fine. part throttle different to what dyno shows here at wide open. intake and exhaust setup needs to be correct also. I have tuned a few cars with the same cams and they are down on power between 4-5000rpm
@@Garage4age whats the most power youve seen running on stock 4age cams? Probably the bluetops then? Would really like an ae86 corolla as next problem but im worried it will be too slow if i dont sacrifice alot of daily driver manners
@@OEMplusRESTO most i could get out of bluetop head and cams was 113kw at wheels. maybe could stretch that to 115kw with more compression. most dont get anywhere near that though. you can time the cams so it runs nicer down low but will lose midrange. or get something inbetween stock and 193b will run nicer. watch this video if you havent already. shows alot of stuff building up bluetop head th-cam.com/video/Ik7tK_zmZCM/w-d-xo.html
hey mate love your channel! very kiwi :D I'm interested to know, did you do anything to the IGN timing map when changing cams? particularly when doing the big step up from factory cam to the kelford profile? cheers man love ya work
same ignition advance used on all the runs here. The timing needed for the bigger cams is pretty close to the same as for the small cams. The bigger cams usually need a little less timing to make best power. due to the engine having higher cylinder fill / making more power. much like a turbo engine will need less timing advance. pretty much all the tests on my na engines are at timing numbers, that going a degree or 2 either way will make the same power
@@Garage4age thanks for your reply man... that's interesting! from watching your video on IGN timing I would have assumed you found MBT for one of the cams at least but I'm surprised that you didn't have to change timing for the kelford cam given it's such a different profile in lift and duration. Have you changed the IGN map at all since going to the bigger cam? Sorry I just realised I asked this question on a clip with absolutely nothing to do with cams or IGN timing :D
Yeah as above is more the power the engine is making rather than the cams directly. engine doesnt see the cams on combustion stroke. Its just more air and fuel (if said cams are anygood) which will need less advance. but its only a small change. my good engine that makes 150kw will make best power only a couple degrees less than what the stock cam engine makes best power at. changing the shape of the combustion chamber and the likes has a more direct effect on ignition needed.
@@Garage4age yep I follow ya! makes sense. thanks for the detailed replies! enjoying your videos man they've got really solid engineering grounding with a simple take home. not easy at all to do that!
Cam install 😆😆😆that simpel image made my day 😅
Good vid i ever seen
Hi just about to build a 4agze cams are worn out. What would you recommend as a replacement and were to look for them
"bolt on"
So actual upgrades are reworked head, cams, itbs, complete exhaust, fuel system and ecu just to be clear, by the way what fuel pump do you running and one question off topic what is diameter of the throttle body on the stock intake 😊 do you think that stock intake would already lowered actual resaults, at 105kw setup i simply havent spotted any big gains over the stock intake, thx for answers 😊
Yeah thats about it, it has toda valve springs. and toda 3.7kg flywheel also. from memory the stock intake has a 54 or 55mm throttle plate. It made pretty decent gains with the long runners on the itb's over the stock intake. remembering it doesn't make much power to start with. pump is just some old bosch pump thats been in the car forever
Vraiment intéressant. Merci pour tout ce temps passé
Nice Video dude
Cool Video, thank you👍🏼 My experiences with N/A engines have shown me that the exhaust cam gives also good effects on the dyno. You should try this.
Definitely yes.
Ive got a couple of vids on cam timing. I didn't adjust the exhaust side, as cant run a adjustable cam gear on that side with current cas setup
@@Garage4age any info on the cas setup? hall effect and magnet on the exhaust cam?
Is there a version on the 4-ag that came with a mechanical distributor? So one could run it on propane, with no computer?
all are efi. but some people modify dizzys off 4k's and the likes when using carbs. or just leave the ecu connected to run ignition only
1:08 😂😂😂😂😂😂
I dont know if you'll see this, but my 16v bigport 7 rib blew the head so im taking the time to rebuild the motor. I'm mainly daily driving the car 10k+ miles a year but I also want to be able to reliably track and autocross the car. Do you have any reccomendations for that aspect? I dont really want to increase power much right now because I want to build on driver mod until I hit the limit of the car and then improve.
basic things i usually do; lower the oil pickup in the sump a little. if your at high rpm a lot put a restictor in block to prevent all the oil ending up in head. clean up the bumps in combustion chambers. .5mm skim off the head. .8mm trd gasket - check deck height first as they can get tight with block skim. smallport pistons. good idea to throw in aftermarket valve springs, so if you want to do a cam swap later on its ready to go. arp rod bolts are good piece of mind if going over 8krpm
top vid as always.... i was hoping u degreeing the exhaust cam too in your test :D :D
the cam install was hot hahahhahaha
cant do a adjustable wheel on exhaust side due to the cas its running. but from past experience may have got couple more kw in those mid range areas where the inlet picked up. far less than what the inlet cam does anyway. unless the cam is quite far off to start with
@@Garage4age yes I saw all your vids... Best stuff out there 👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻
Good quality info as usual!
your regos out bro
More upgrade man
Impressive gains
So, the 193b factory mark in the video is like the cam card settings?
yup
Curious to know If you have a set of silver top throttle bodies laying around. Would love to see what differences you'd get. Seems to be a lot of arguments over the internet about st vs bt itbs on 16v's. Both on stock motors, slightly modified and fully modified.
no silivertops hanging around. the throttles on it are actually modified bt with 47mm plates. at this power the stock bt 45's would be no difference. but would think the st would be pretty borderline, way back i done a test restricting the 45mm's down on an engine with similar power to this and it lost power
I've been meaning to ask, why is the torque axis being shown so incorrect?
Its torque measured at rollers. curve correct. numbers aren't. pretty much all dynos work like this. but the ones that show "correct" numbers, have a calculation from either manually entered engine rpm numbers or a rpm pickup off engine. my dyno software doesn't have it
@@Garage4age thanks for the explanation! I'm used to seeing the axis scaled for the values plotted after correction.
I wondered the same thing. 300nm at idle.. what.. 🤣
@@Deiphobuzz dang, that cam is better than I thought,,,,
Really nice video. Can you show maybe some tricks to build a reliable 4age. Or 4agte or make it more reliable. And Why dont you test a 7age?(just intrested. I know the block is weaker)
4a cheaper. you couldn't do this with a stock 7a bottom end. Yeah that's the thing. you really dont have to do much to them to make a reliable 4age/t. unless pushing big numbers. would be a pretty short video.
Смотрю из России. Спасибо тебе друг.
Will the cylinder head be ported and re-measured at the dyno?
This one already has some work done to it. but likely going to swap to a different head soon
is the engine interference at this point or you just super close?
interference yes
G-4age, you ever mess around with the Toyota R-series? (18R, 20R, 22R)
If so, for NA power how does the 4age stack up?
It's got a significant displacement disadvantage, but I imagine the 4AGE has superior head design and camshaft selection.
Absolutely, I’m working on 18rg at the moment.....where to get good part...toyhead...thanks
getting an 18rg running, is about as much as ive done on r series
How would I install cams if my car has a dry sump setup? Considering my valve cover does not have a oil cap to slip em in?
dont 4k's come stock with 3/4 race cams anyway? Or are you wanting to go full hectic with the full race cam? That would be far to lumpy to do a filler cap install, even if you had one. Assuming you have fcr carbs to go with that dry sump, you could section the cam in 4 and feed them in simultaneously, watch your fingers in the slides
Touché
@@Garage4age oh my god...i wat to die every time i hear the "full race cam" jargon xDDDD
Mr 4age what do you think of regrinding stock cams to similar spec?
better off to get new cams. can only go so far with regrinds and need to reduce base circle to do it. so have to add lash caps to extend the valve stems to get clearances in spec. wont be able to go as big as the cams in this vid with regrinds.
very good video !!!
Have you evem driven the car with the turd motor on it yet or is it sitting on the dyno since its got installed? 🤣🤣 Amazing work, will refer to your cam install guide some day🤣
I drove it off the dyno then about 10m and parked it up. does that count? 😂
@@Garage4age i guess you felt all the power in those 10 meters lmao
@@Alysavos-rd4tp That's why i parked it up. was way to intense
@@Garage4age 🤣🤣🤣 savage🤣
Keep it up fkn love your work!!
(wheres the hilux at lol🤣)
These tests on this channel are really highlighting how much more superior the Honda B series engines were.. Very interesting non the less.
Cant beat honda for na engines. but the cam profile im using here looks to be around the same as factory vtec profile. so its actually doing pretty good at 170whp. also remember these engines are an older design.
Tbh the 4age doesn't have any system in place to change Cam timing or Camshaft profile through out the RPM range and slight lower compression ratio (I believe and I think he using small port pistons instead). Its inevitable that B series are better. But I didn't expect him to be making 130kw by just slap some cams on it and adjusting the fuelling on that 4age.
Ha, bl**dy Honda,do you have to rub it in, you hurting me,,,or I bring out my weapon, 2jz....hahaha,,,,
Older design, but better quality and over engineers....not that pussy aluminium block no web to support, it can only handle so much,,,plus newer design, who make the most powerful 3 cylinder engine right now is it toyota or Honda.....
@@suronsoon8913 dont be toxic plz lol
i wouldve thought changing the timing wouldve made a more noticeable difference
Can you do a ported and polished vs stock test ?
I maybe doing this soon, but will be with a bigport head
@@Garage4age got another good one might be a bit hard on your engine but the true parasitic effect of alternator, power steering & aircon ?
Yeah this car doesn't have any of those luxuries haha. but could possibly do it on my daily when dyno is better setup for fwd. thanks for the ideas
Hi, probably asked a lot of times here but what is your dyno setup?
Its an old Vane (now mainline) bed. Is running dynotorque control/software, which is a company that used to do dyno control here in nz.
@@Garage4age I was thinking about getting one, what do you think about buying an old eddy brake Dyno and make/buy a modern day controller is this a good ideia?
A lot of people are doing this now. most use yourdyno control, or sport devices if want a higher end product. I will probably switch to one of them, if have any major issues with my setup, as its not supported anymore. if you are on facebook there is a "diy dyno" page. some good info pops up now and then.
I guess the Kelford cams have more duration ? just remember that max gas flow at the IN valve is @ 0.25 valve diameter, when you say 'advancing the cam' are you meaning into or away from engine rotation
yeh specs are pinned in comment at top of both kelford and stock. advanced so forward into engine rotation. so the inlet cam opens earlier and has more overlap with exhaust cam
@@Garage4age Sorry , but I don't see a comparison pinned in your comment section, there is something in the video but is unreadable . anyway advancing the cam will generally improve bottom end but I have no idea of O/L as you have no figures for the EX cam, so it may have no bearing on the result. Too much IN adv will likely show up as IN reversion that you may see at the IN trumpets .... but the extra duration sure showed up in the top end ! ( extra lift may also show up as duration as valve accel to that lift exposes the valve to better flow rates longer with in that duration ) ....great effort ...ta
@@bobawatsit No offense but how small is your screen? i can read it on my phone haha. here is a link to the cam spec on kelford site: www.kelfordcams.com/nz/camshafts/toyota/4a-ge-16v/193-b-camshaft-set.html . I did a quick measure after installing and the numbers were pretty close to whats on the cam card, on the factory marks. a lot of people struggle to make numbers around the 4500rpm mark on these engines when going to bigger cams. mostly due to the bolt on selection they have used.
@@Garage4age Ok, I did a look at Kelford specs, I wish the cam grinders would stick to the SAE convention of lobe duration measured @ .006 " lift ....anyway those cams as a set have approx 70 deg of O/L and 280 odd deg duration ...that is getting on toward a very fast road or semi track cam, that's why you see a good improvement in the top end ....I don't know if this test was against factory spec IN / EX cams as I was surprised how little the bottom end performance was affected
@@bobawatsit was vs factory cams yes. from what ive found on the net they are 7.1mm lift and 232 degree duration, measured at what lift i have no idea, but would assume advertised. they are pretty small. as my above post its holding the bottom end well due to the bolt on selection. on following sheet the red line is my setup in this video. the blue line is another car with same engine spec and same cams. but different bolt on mods, different intake, headers, exhaust etc. garage4ag.files.wordpress.com/2021/01/193b-10-ad-v-zac.png if all goes to plan will have a vid out over next few weeks showing what effect the bolt on stuff has
Damn. My blacktop on haltech with tomei poncams didn't even make 130kw
Yeah this junk made a few more kw than my "stockish" 20v the first time i ran it up with the stock intake and the likes on it. the 20v made 102kw. also the cams i put in this engine probably a little bigger than poncams
Kelford cam is one of the best around the world,
What is this only an intake him change why no exhaust cam timing
I cant fit an adjustable cam gear on the exhaust side, with the cas setup im using. the intake has a lot more effect on power also
How do you think this engine would react with your larger itbs?
was no difference on the other engine, so would expect the same. these ones actually have 47mm throttle plates, usually 45mm
@@Garage4age was there any significant improvement when you went from 45mm to 47mm throttle plates in the past?
@@ryanhumphreys4805 was pre dyno, when went to the 47mm. if i recall correctly there wasn't much if any change in the fueling. so likely minimal to no gain. but the engine was making quite a bit less power back then, probably not a lot more than than engine in this vid. I did restrict the throttles down a few mm to see if any loss before opening them up to 47mm and it did loose some power. so 45 must have only just been big enough
So this one require under bucket shimm right....
stock shim., its one of the smaller cams they sell. their "HV" cams require underbucket/ shimless
Can I run the 193b cams without a stand alone?
Nar too big
👍👍👍
you're getting more power than me at the wheels and I have a Loyning built motor full of FA parts. Hmm....
work on the bolt on parts. my first engine i done way back, had much bigger cams than this. but didn't make any power, from memory 105kw was the most it ever made.
@@Garage4age Thanks. Of course, my dyno is with a 23.5mm SIR. If I can get 112kw w/ the SIR at the wheels I'll be happy.
How far will the golden turd go?
Im pretty much out of hand me down parts from the good engine. So likely it wont make much more power than this. but Ive got lots more to test on it. i haven't got to the reason i actually built it yet. still work in progress...
126kw at the flywheel or wheels?
Wheels
Thats awesome 👌. Good to know.
Why not do a 20v blacktop head swap?
I prefer 16v. I do have a 20v blacktop in my daily that may do some basic stuff on in the future though
Okay. Can you bring it to the channel I'd love to see it
I love the 16v and the 7a engines as well but i like them a little more with the 20v head
Everyone always saying "just slap a cam in it real quick"
What's the compression ratio on this engine?
about stock. 10.3
So I would say that if it works more or less in this way on other engines too this is also a myth busted (bwwwaaaaaa) regarding the need to raise the ratio when going for longer durations cams for not loosling midrange (a loss under 2k is not to be considered in my opinion, even if present).
Nice :-)
👍
What comp.ratio ?
10.3 ish
This seems to be no trade off of running this cams? Anyone? (I wonder why they didn't came like this from factory if that is the case...)
Most likely emission related, but it could also be valve train longevity etc
doesn't idle too smooth anymore! esp after advancing the inlet cam. the right bolt on bits are helping hold up the bottom end on this setup. i tuned one with the same cams in it, the other day. it was down 20kw at 5000rpm, only 7kw different peak.
@@Garage4age understood!
Who needs idle anyway... 3k rpm idle like in some bikes and race engines.. hehehehe
Toyota focusing on reliability,so they can take over the world...
I’m curious if swapping the cams produces more power ie longer duration on the exhaust cam. I see you’re running distributor-less (as I noticed no distributor gear on the other cam) so wouldn’t be an issue to give it a try. I have hks 264 intake and 256 exhaust in my 4age. I watched Richard Holdener’s reverse pattern cam vid the other day. He demonstrated that in an LS application a longer duration exhaust cam made more power than a longer duration intake cam, so it got me thinking about my setup in the 4ag.
th-cam.com/video/gaPlbqHq_4k/w-d-xo.html
I thought I was the only one who installs cams like that.hmm
I want to support your channel, want to buy your shirt bro...
go on, then i can afford to buy groceries this week 😂
I will I buy all three of those style next week, is there a link or a website....
teespring.com/stores/garage4age
Can't believe you installed you cam leave me that, use a funnel it's more professional.
TH-cam doesn't pay me enough, cant afford a funnel
@@Garage4age Lol,, because all your dino runs are within 5hp,, would make a great bracket racer. You killed a lot of mythology with this engine.
The titles wrong this is a 15 second video on how to install cams with 5 minutes of filler content
20v head swap it
Wait, is that a thing?
LMAOOOO
First here today, choice bro