NA Tuning myths & bolt-on mismatches - Gold 4age - Dyno tested
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ม.ค. 2021
- This time I install some fancy looking parts, that dont work. To highlight how using the wrong bolt on parts on a NA build, can cause a big power loss.
Help me make more vids, grab some merch: teespring.com/stores/garage4age
Insta : @garage4age
@Garage 4age - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
![[TH] VCT Pacific Stage 2 - Week 4 Day 3 // GEN vs TS | PRX vs ZETA](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nspkjQuZve0/mqdefault.jpg)
![ความรักไม่ได้น่ากลัวขนาดนั้น (TRUST ME) - LYKN [ OFFICIAL MV ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9np-lAtCRpQ/mqdefault.jpg)
The engine misfiring at around 2200rpm Is due to reversion. I pulled a lot if fuel out, to try get it to rev through without misfiring. but gave up spending time on it, since wide open throttle is irrelevant at 2000rpm. To resolve the issue tuning wise, the rpm cells/rows need to be moved around/added, as happens over a very small rpm range. but end of the day there will still be a massive dip in power in this area. The correct fix its getting all the parts working together correctly, rather than trying to tune around it.
Nice Video dude. What do you work as?
@@robinlerch4795 Bum / Alarm tech. nothing to exciting.
@@Garage4age for some it is, like me, trailer mechanic on daily base,but looking for the engine limits while i am not at work lmao
that joke has cost me 2 engines so far
I have same problem in my car. 3700~4200rpm .
What ecu do you use?
You just made this video to show off your "not caring" welds which are better than every muffler shop in the US
To all of you people watching this...
You are my kind of people!
I love these videos no bullshit, just here is what happens. Keep the videos coming! :D
Continuing the exhaust theme, as a future idea seeing an exhaust comparison of the following:
Primary diameters including under size and over size.
Adjusting primary lengths and how they compare to the various formulae out there.
Bonus of comparing 4-2-1 into and 4-1.
Love this channel and the testing you do!
I'm an n/a VQ35DE man myself (in mid build) but this is all relevant no matter the engine, very interesting and it's great that you can show good/bad/mismatched parts and their affect too.
Brilliant work and well presented, Thanks for positing
Ace as usual, great job, thanks so much, as mentioned before, I did sponsored your channel by purchasing t- shirt, decal and the rest, cheers bro...
Warning civic noises at midnight at 2:50
4:10 is more like it lmao
Haha, I love your "10% caring...back to not caring" comments and hardcore Japanese exhaust subtitles. (as well as lots more relevant engine tuning info, as always). Excellent work. Well done.
Reminds me of that "trick" Hilux intake manifold you tried - all hype and name vs results. While I'm not a 4AGE owner/runner, this info will be invaluable when I start my DIY intake and exhaust on my Corvair boxer six and its messed up double 90 degree bends in the intake system. I have enjoyed your side-by-side comparisons on intake runners and bellmouths, et al. Great info.
People talk about back pressure when they discuss exhaust but the real issue is gas flow inertia. Fast flowing gases through smallish pipes make the difference in scavenging, which is the primary goal of a good exhaust. This video proves just that. I was wondering if you have ever played around with ceramic coating on the exhausts? It´s probably pricey but it would help a bit.
love your videos please keep them coming!
Love how much you take the piss, perfect blend of actual information video and cracking jokes
yep I like the humour very much too. Perfect mix for technical stuff.
Resonant frequency waves, its what makes the magic in a N/A engine but can also be a total party pooper if they works against you as you demonstrated :)
Brilliant, NA tuning really is an art.
Agreed
I love the dyno testing. What I'd like to see is the losses when you drop the exhaust pipe. Like for example you go and tune the car on the road, it comes to drag strip time, you drop the exhaust to make it loud and fast, just running with headers but ends up going really slow, see it all the time with the V8s. They go quicker with no exhaust?
Interesting. Results would be even wilder in turbo motor. Misconceptions about turbo engine are wilder too. People commonly believe, that turbo intake manifold can get away with short runners, cam timing can’t have any over lap in it, a back pressure is good for turbo and so on.
The best size pipe for the headers should be the same cross section area as the port.
would love to see with and without a helmholtz chamber run
Love the videos, very interesting to see the back to back testing of stuff, whether it goes well or not. Have you thought anything about plug gaps and plug heat range testing ? Does it make a difference? what about indexing the plug so the electrodes all face the same direction rather than just being random or is that just an OCD thing to make people feel better?
probably just ocd. but cant say ive tested it. might be good for a quick vid along with the heat ranges, thanks for the idea.
What is the diameter of the baseline exhaust system currently employed?
Can you try and build an anti-reversion camber into the exhaust?
I love these videos. Actuall runs on the dyno with every adjustment. Rare thing to see. 😍
Thinking i may try something like this, to see if its possible to make the 60mm pipe work like my normal exhaust
@@Garage4age very interested!
That exhaust had me laughing lol
Hi! I have a worldwide important question!!
What provokes the biggest peak power losses?
Catalytic converter
Or
Pipe + silencer?
Have you ever tried this out? Would be wonderful if you ever did! Btw: love your videos ✌️
2-1/4 " exhaust piping? ty for doing this testing its very interesting
can u do difference between 4 in 1 and 4 in 2 in 1 exhaust manifold?
I take that your standard exhaust size is 50mm? I have a standard ae82 twincam and the exhaust is still factory. Measured 50mm all the way threw
70mm/3inch exhaust? That's massive. Alot of people here in South africa run a 57 to 63 mm what is your take on that?
I think smaler diameter a bit more torque bigger diameter more hp on higher revs but little loss on low end torque
my try was a TRD handmade clone by friend but longer distance from 2 to 1... 38mm to 42mm to 45mm headers i m gonna make it 48 internal diameter(( 51 outside )) was hard to find the 2 meters pipe all finishing on 50mm group N , engine is carbed so no other restrictor ... thinking of another big empth in the middle for less DB ending but not sure!!!! My header has less curves but a bit violent turns... i m going to try again if hit another stage on engines head!!!! its still stock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! all system 304 stainless when its finished!!!! excet the flange started argon on a stock 20v flange and i think its a vintage touch to stay there... engine is 16v blue ,, smallport and car ke70 sedan
was it a 50mm exhaust used in baseline run?
2in/50mm for baseline?
guessing the baseline exhaust is 1.5 or 1.75 inches
Would you do exhaust manifold dyno test on a turbo engine?
Something i would like to try. but cant justify the fab work at this point
I wonder how much you’ll lose/gain with a smaller 2 1/4 pipe..?
At the end of each video, tell us the best combination
2.5 inch baseline exhaust?
It's will work with turbo!
So, what size exhaust was used in the baseline run?
you have to guess
50.8
45?
its 3" 76mm
@@Garage4age isnt that a lot ? i have a fully built 4age with 60mm
Great video.
Is there a 'known formula' or general guide for choosing the right parts or is it a matter of continual test and comparison on the dyno. I guess some other engine could react completely differently to the changes than your 4age?
127 at the wheels is impressive from a 1.6 btw.
Great content👍
Thanks for all the effort
There is probably something out there. but im a sucker for punishment and learnt the hard way by testing a lot of parts. most of which i done before having dyno access. Different engines will react differently to a point. But most of its pretty relevant. There is some pretty misleading info out there that keeps getting regurgitated, like small exhausts will make more low/midrange power. and bigger cams will lose midrange power.
@@Garage4age maybe the misconceptions are left over from the hotrodding days when they used carbs and didn't have such fine control over fuelling and spark timing
@@nathandamgaard3227 Yeah. I think a big one is people expect to lose bottom end /midrange when installing cams. so just blame the cams and dont pursue it any further.
Yes, start by reading Design and Simulations of four-stroke engines from prof. Gordon Blair, the bible of 4stroke engines :)
51mm exhaust baseline
What about 4 carbs instead of ITB?
What about a 3.5" Exhaust?
The baseline piping is fairly small, like 50 mm maximum i think.
Small enough to get exhaust gases out fast and create some scavenging.
60 mm is so big that slow gases create some pressure the pulse behind can't fight.
Bernoulli stuff, right : small piping diameter = fast gas with low pressure
big piping diameter = slow gas with high pressure.
its 3"
@@Garage4age
That's very big for NA and this displacement.
@@michaelovitch If you think of it as the exhaust ending when it steps up to 3". makes more sense. lets the header do its work.
@@Garage4age
I don't understand .
On the baseline ,you only had a header finishing at 3" or you had the header and the whole pipe and muffler in 3" ?
@@michaelovitch header has 2.5" collector. then it steps up to 3" for rest of exhaust
Wow no muffler was not better can you add the normally second cat and see how much that affects it
So you think, I used 278 intake, 266 exhaust kelford cam all dial in, oversized 1mm both inlet and exhaust valve, seat 3 angel cut, ported, hks cam gear, toda cambelt, 525cc xspurt injector, 20v itb st, sq inlet manifold adaptor, Fujitsubo extractor and 2 quarter inch exhaust, 81.5mm Toyota piston, arp head bolt, arp big end bolt , 255 warbro pump, dash 6 braided furl line, micro tech lt10c.....Do you thinks I get that much power or a little less due to cam selection a little smaller than your, cheers bro...plus supertec valve spring, titanium retainer, high oil flow pump, baffle sump...
peak should be close depending how well head work is done. as seen in this vid you may need to do some testing with the bolt ons to get midrange up. I tuned a smallport awhile ago with 193b, stock head or at least near stock. and the usual itb's, fancy looking headers, 2.5" exhaust. so very similar on paper to the turd, minus the head work. most could get out of it was 119kw. 117-118kw constantly. and was down 20kw in midrange vs turd much like seen in this vid.
I think the size is +-53.5 if im right would
u give me some knowledge how to tune my 206 gti s 16 big fan bart🖤💛❤
the "Horrible 4age exhaust noise" is still 1000x better than a nissan vq
Ha!
So what im getting after reading all the comments is that with big cams + overlap, you should use a 3" exhaust or else you'll have issues with reversion. What I don't quite understand quite yet is what's the difference between the baseline and new exhaust manifolds? What should I be looking for in a manifold to replicate the effectiveness of the baseline setup?
The diameter of the tubes is too big on 2nd exhaust manifold.
2in 50mm exhaust
56mm is my guess that motor needs a 70hp shot from 5k to redline 😈 ..aint making anymore power with out more c.r being N.A
Honestly, that's a ton of power for a 1.6 N/A, especially at the wheels. Is there a mod list for this engine?
Check out his earlier videos, he did one on putting this motor together
Its pretty basic. pretty much a smallport 10.3 bottom end. modified head, ports and chambers. toda valve springs and flywheel. kelford 193b cams. rest bolt on stuff. I just created a playlist that is relevant to the build up of this engine th-cam.com/play/PLCZDwNynUKJMA2D7m1pP9BjKKQ9sNqRVp.html
While watching the video I was asking myself already what's the baseline magic diameter... :D Then a saw it's a game, so I say, oem stock? (have no idea what it is :D )
Also should be interesting to see how the welds look inside the pipe
@@KarolisSiauliai no backfill eh
I've always been told you make more power running a PCV setup. Looks like the Gold 4age doesn't run one. Can you test with a PCV/catch-can?
You can make more power with a vacuum pump on the crankcase but not really a pcv it can move enough air
Can you make dynorun with stock cast iron 4age rwd header?
if i come across one, or someone sends me one, sure
Are you saying to go bigger exhaust or smaller exhaust?
bigger, baseline is 3"
All your add ons would cripple the bottom > mid range ...short IN runners , oversize EX tube diameters and IN retard cam timing, which shows on your power runs ...as far as the EX tube size goes , a length of approx 30" from the valve head to the collector for your peak RPM , primary tube O/D of 36 odd mm ( so 1.5 " / 38 mm ) secondary tube length is any multiple of the primary and diameter is 2.94" ( 3" no worries ) this suits 4 into 1 ...2;2;1 is quite another ball game and tend to have generally a broader torque band ...and you can also mismatch EX/ IN tube lengths to flatten out torque
Why do you turn off the engine when changing the exhaust manifold?
:)
I know right. tests are probably way off since shut the engine down
@@Garage4age Speaking of having the manifold off - have you ever dino'd it while its off?
@@asdfghjklkjhgfdsa69 cant say i have. I ran it up couple of days ago with open headers, some interesting results, along with bleeding ears. will be in next vid
Stock exhaust manifold would have been cool to see
would test one if find one cheap or someone sent me one.
That's just what I was going to say. I think the headers might be a bit long? 29 inches is a magic number.
@@1magnit what makes you think that?
It’s magic krisp. Because your not Gandalf you would not know of such things.
1magnit is like the Ron weasley of the exhaust world so his magic 29” number he plucked outta thin air is now the number that every exhaust aims to be.
Because as @1magnit always says it not short and thick that will do the trick but more long and thin to get right in
@@garage4k989 It ties in with the speed of sound , the rpm where you want peak torque and the length of time it takes the wave to travel along the pipe to the other end and back again about 3 times.
Here's a strange thing. You make a number of changes to the engine all of which make it worse at low and medium speeds yet none seem to affect the max power at high revs. Any possible explanations for this.
I think the head maybe near its limit. some of the changes like the intake trumpet length had more effect when it had stock cams, which is kind of strange. all the bolt on's in baseline run are good for more power, as most of them come off my 150kw engine
Ooh 3" exhaust on baseline?
Yup
Needs a dirty big supercharger
60mm? To 1.6 4age -170cv before 50/45mm
Thats a nice little car! Is it RWD from the factory?!
yeah they are rwd factory. come with a different engine tho
1 7/8 ?
COP VS WASTED SPARK VS DIZZY NEXT ?
Zero difference if all are working correctly, on a four cylinder there is plenty of time for a distributor to work correctly to a higher RPM than this engine spins to. Differences observed would be down to coil energy differences and only negative differences away from "good solid ignition" if one set of coil(s) was too weak for the mixture (ratio and quality) and compression involved.
38-44mm should be all you need for that power level
stock 125cv = 45mm
On closer inspection, when he is changing the headers it looks like a large pipe under there, probably upwards of 75mm...
@@robinsandeman-allen5128 I thought more people would notice that 3" v band
@@Garage4age nice job on the videos btw.
I reckon the baseline exhaust is a oval
It has all the shapes
70mm
4:32 after tacobell
These engines are around 128hp standard..and he is getting less hp here with carbs..?
128hp at engine. This one is making 125kw at wheels which is around 167hp at wheels. If you wanted to add 10% driveline loss it would be 183hp. Its efi not carby
@@Garage4age oh right..my bad.that is some good power at wheels..
76mm exhaust?
yup
Are you seeeerious ???!!! :)
50mm
lots of nerd talk in the comments, but all I want to know is why we shouldn't use pork?
Do not use fork hoist.. use something else cant see the rest 🤣
What is reversion?
Exhaust gas going back into cylinder/intake. extreme cases can actually throw the air fuel mix back out the intake runner. you can hear the intake noise change when it does it.
@@Garage4age Isn't it because the exhaust is not restrictive enough and there's not enough "scavenging"?
So when are you going to build me an extractor....
56mm
Too much reversion never has a positive outcome, it means that the velocity and speed of gasses has been hindered, and it actually creates the same effect as backpressure does. Only a small degree of reversion is needed and that is to aid flow not to damage it. This is shown clearly in the test with(small degree of reversion ) vs without muffler(elevated degree of reversion), same result shown on the steeped header test. Choosing the right parts is the most important aspect of a built.
Keep the baseline exhaust size guesses coming in. no one is anywhere near close yet...
Is that really below 50mm? 48 my guess.
70mm
45mm
44mm? 😂
0.75"
Is that a commodore muffler I see?
ha yeh, the bottom line of japanese writing roughly translates to "taxi muffler"
50mm into 57mm
I'm guessing 52-56mm exhaust
3" 76mm
@@Garage4age well I was way off.
Now I'm confused
You should be, its a na 4age making more than 150hp
51mm ??? Baseline?
76mm
That' baseline has got to be 3" buddy.
3"?! is that a typo
@@Garage4age the answer is always 3"
I only just found out exhausts come in different sizes
@@Garage4age put a five inch thong slapper on it and see what it does 😂
baseline should be stock, not highly modified engine, because any mods/change gives less power
No offense. but you are kind of missing the point of the video. Its merely pointing out that all the parts need to work together and be correct for the engine, no matter is state of modification. Also engine isn't highly modified. its a stock engine with some port work cams and valve springs.
@@Garage4age try to tune/modificate koeniggsegg, any change would result with less power, this is hard parallel, your engine as baseline has: nonstock:intake, header, and catback exhaust, if you would started with stock, and would change these 3 parts, with bigger, shorter and longer parts, best results would be in your baseline combination of parts, and you did not try with forced induction(as modification that is not in baseline ,)
@@makantahi3731 watch the video backwards? or if you watch the previous videos in this playlist i built the engine up with as many stock parts as i had hanging around, then showed what parts worked. this video was to show what parts don't th-cam.com/play/PLCZDwNynUKJMA2D7m1pP9BjKKQ9sNqRVp.html
Are you Australian?
New Zealand
Without knowing specs of baseline engine tgis is pretty useless. .
Baseline should ve a 100% stock motor..
watch the previous videos on this engine. th-cam.com/play/PLCZDwNynUKJMA2D7m1pP9BjKKQ9sNqRVp.html comparing to stock wasn't the point of this video
I guess the baseline is an engine well age´d on the dyno ;)
You mean it doesnt mind what the f**k we do to our cars??
?
50mm