Vag go to the effort of using forged rods, forged cranks and optimising the rest of the design. Then they fit it with a plastic sump and plastic waterpump housing.
So optimising those parts too. Over building something is just as pointless as under building it. If its going to work long enough to see the warranty out, save weight and cost why wouldn't they use it?
@@siraff4461 They are not optimised though, as they regularly fail. The cost cutting isn't worth the adverse reliability reputation that the brand suffers when they continually fail.
@@simonh870 Thats a calculation they have to make. If its not worth it they will change the design on the next version. Like that annoying heater control system from the mk8 that nobody liked. The 8,5 doesn't make it perfect but it fixes the main problem people had.
Nope. And the kicker is if both the GTI and the Golf R engines upgraded their turbos to the same hybrid turbo, and ran the same exact software, both engines would make the same exact power and it’s “reliably threshold” would be exactly the same. So the moral of the story is that the Golf R’s engine isn’t different enough to actually deem it a stronger engine lol. It’s just all pointless talking points that Golf R owners try to argue to make them feel better about their car…
Just don't go crazy w custom tunes like some start bragging my tune has more power bla bla... Stay w an off-the-shelf tune, those usually are on the conservative side. Do your oil changes maybe 1 to 2k miles earlier, always 93oct regardless if tune is for 89 or 91, run one step colder spark plugs, always let the engine warm up (for me is about 15min of driving) before giving it the beans. And of course, do your timing chain within the recommended service interval. These engines run extremely well when tuned, the ECM is super smart and protects the engine against detonation.
Stage 1? I'm at stage 3+ with an IS38 turbo and an e48 tune. 400hp. Been no issues at all for 3+ years. This is as big as I'm comfortable with going in terms of reliability.
The extra duration on the exhaust lobe is to sacrifice a little efficiency at low load for an increase in exhaust gas to the turbo at higher load. In other words it helps response with that larger turbo but will likely use a little more fuel around town.
I read somewhere that in the EA888.4 engine more exhaust is directed through the EGR to heat the engine faster thus reducing emissions. It may already be in the EA888.3 R engine along with the copper alloy head? Also the coolant specification for the Gen 4 engine is different than for Gen 3 possibly indicating more Cu in the alloy, requiring a coolant less corrosive? The Gen 4 also has a Continental turbo not IHI. I just bought a T-ROC R with the gen 4 engine, so have been slowly learning about it.
How come the engine looks so weird and 220hp turbo is wildly weak and inefficient like compared to a honda k series it looks like a cheap toy from performance to design and visually lol. Is that just a vw thing?
@@einfelder8262 Its exactly that. The gen 4 is just massaged to get through the later EU emissions regs. Warm up and temperature control are critical at that level of emission scrutiny. Its not just the engines ability to pass more heat off but also its ability to keep the temperature as close to optimal as possible over as much of the operating time as possible. Fast warm up and cat heating is critical for lower cold start emisions but that wouldn't work well on a GPF car if it had to run hot which gives more NOx so it has to get hot fast then level out and hold temperature well - hence the different materials used.
You pointed out the relatively small difference in size of the R and GTI under cylinder spray/cooling tubes and you didn’t seem to think it was a big deal. Flow through a tube is proportional to the 4th power of tube radius. A very small increase in radius can increase flow significantly. I have no idea what the numbers would be for these cars, but I wouldn’t assume the difference in cooling between them would be negligible. The difference may surprise you. Sometimes the little details make a big difference.
You can find the actual Audi SSP detailing the changes from the 2.0T low output (is20) to the high output engines (is38). And yes, the valves are different materials.
Many moons ago didn't want to pay Golf R prices so I bought a GTI (2008) brand new. That year the late 08's had the TSI but you could still flash the ecu without pulling it. Also the TSI fueling was better that year. It wasn't long before my favorite shop had me talked into a Revo K04 swap. Drove that car with zero problems for 12 years and most of it was on either software and 3/4 of that was with the K04. On top of that I ran the OEM clutch without issue to 130,000 miles and replaced it with OEM and finally sold it at 150,000 miles. The car overall was just such a great daily driver and bang for the buck. Video brought back a ton of memories.
I really miss my Mk5 GTI. It just started to become a money pit when we started to have a longer commute, but to this day it's still the car I miss giving up of almost everything else I've driven.
Great video man!! This is what real car enthousiasts want to see! VERY informative and exactly the things you want to see when checking the difference, all so clear now thanks again
@8:36 If you ever need to check the performance/characteristics of a spring, you can setup a simple device using a rod and a dead weight. You slip the spring circling the rod and drop the dead weight on top of the spring to see how much compression.
Those horizontal lines on the connecting rods happen when the flash is cut from the rod in a trim press. Also there will never be a smooth surface found on a forged part without it going through some sort of machining to make it smooth. Identifying a forged part is fairly simple once you know what to look for. BTW you can have letters in forged parts in certain areas but not on others like the skirt area of a piston.
Crank shaft seems to have a sand cast finish and not a forge finish will say that as my 2c Could be wrong but just looks like trimmed riser blocks and pour gates to me
Thanks for making this, it's really interesting to know what's inside these cars, and how they make parts you can't see different. Also it's nice to see the engineering nitty gritty instead of the marketing we have all heard a million times.
Love the video and dispelling the theories and rhetoric. Good work Paul. We could do with more people like you in the world. Straight talking, problem solving. And when you don't know, you say so love it!!!😊
Thanks for this good video. Due to my 30+ years in automotive parts industry, I found that factories sell the same part in different part numbers and prices. I've once extracted the coded ( Monroe ) shock absorber specifications DVD and found out that the factory doesn't really produce 25k different shock absorbers, and each shock absorber comes in almost 60 different part numbers. This is how to make money
I agree with others, the cam lift duration on the R cam being little longer is to cope with a bigger R turbo and keep good pick as that turbo going to take marginally longer to pick up. Be interesting on results using a GTi cam in the R engine probably won’t feel much different just maybe bit more hesitant on low rpm pick up.
Phantastic Paul. Brilliant walk through and research. One clarification though; the lines on the edge of a forged item is from the die that cuts off the surplus metal. And your occasional gibberish puts a grin on my face. Let’s keep that. 👍🏻
just to note that the valve lift is the difference between the highest and the lowest point of the lobe, not just the highest point, great to see this in detail.
The correct way to measure cam lift is to zero out your calipers at the base circle and getting the tip of the lobe after. Even in modern engines there will be measurable differences in lobe base circles.
Would be cool to get a Seat Leon Cupra engine 280-290 or 300 version and see the difference between all 3 engines since they run the same engine aswell
Perfect video , confirming a lot of the information I have gathered . Notice how the hardcore GTI/A3 peeps don't have really much to say in these comments? LOL On the forums every other sentence is " Yeah, my GTI has THE SAME EXACT engine as your Golf R, except the turbo, you shouldn't have spent the extra money on the Golf R". WELL, now everyone can see it is worth EVERY PENNY to spend the bit of extra money for the Golf R- " MADE IN GERMANY" vs " MADE IN MEXICO lol that enough would persuade me to get the Golf R every time.... YES the max torque being 450 ft/lbs in both engines is about right, however, for longevity and stage 3 levels the Golf R will very likely make out much better in the long run being that the GOlf R engine is built for higher power levels clearly.
If the exhaust cam duration is long enough, the negative wave will return from the exhaust port and travel across the cylinder and up the intake port since the intake valve may already be opening before the exhaust valve shuts. There's tuning reasons for all of this. Of course all the stupid emissions laws really makes it tough for manufacturers to actually tune cam timing between IN and EX in a way for max power, exhaust scavenging, and the like. That is what is identical in scientific principle between a 4-stroke and 2-stroke, is the exhaust pressure waves and how they affect cylinder efficiency.
Aside from the actual alloy of the cast (which I didn't expect), there doesn't seem to be much of a difference between GTI and R. Sure, the small differences can do something for long-term use and wear. But IMO nothing seems to crazy to see it as a "must have" upgrade over the GTI. Very interesting, and great video idea!
Agreed. The biggest practical difference is the turbo itself and the exhaust lobe profile change to accommodate the difference in turbo response and feel. A stage 1 GTI tune is making more power than the standard Golf R tune to begin with, so it's not surprising given they're essentially the same motors and I'm not aware of any real increases in engine failures on tuned GTIs. Makes sense given the internals are essentially the same where it actually matters for making power reliably between both the R and GTI.
I've had a mk8 GTI over a year now and have bought a handful of parts from DAP and am not sure why I'm not subscribed to this channel. Well... now I am lol
This is so cool. Love compare and contrast vids like this. Especially when the things being compared aren’t easily accessible to the general public but they’re still things people wonder about. This is what TH-cam is for!
Addition: Not all 1.8T's have cast cranks. And even if they do have one (for example early 1.8t's like AEB or AGU), they can take up to like 800-900hp with ease
Is it possible the Golf R cam is solid billet, as opposed to the pressed on lobes of the GTI cam? What would definitely make it more expensive, as the machining is more complex.
@eppyz yes, but I was referring to the initial blank. The shaft of a billet cam can be bored. It would certainly be easier and cheaper to machine the lobes and press them on, but then what *is* the difference between the two intake cams, and why is the R cam $800ish more?
@@jameshaulenbeek5931 Most likely due to production. They Sell 10 GTI's for every 1 R. Less parts being made, prices go up. Yes there might be a minute difference, but probably not one worth $1000 US more. Paul will find out when he installs the GTI Cam.
In a casting or an injection molding the line is often called a “witness line” as in witness here is where two parts of the tool came together. In forging the tool doesn’t necessarily come together, but leaves a piece of material to be trimmed off. Higher copper in the aluminum alloy can also mean a higher likelihood of corrosion. When you say a more sustainable engine, don’t you mean a more reliable one? Sustainable means I’ll be able to fix it down the road, reliable means I won’t have to. 😁 Keep up your comparisons and keep adding in your outside experts! 👍
Very interesting info here, about the intake cams, I'm wondering if the cam phasers maybe move a few more degrees on the GolfR, maybe but who knows for sure.
I remember the alloy subject from when I built my 1.8t... The head with copper (Cu) in it dissipates heat better, but can form cracks between the valve seats more easily under higher boost.
(4:20) well since both engines are turbocharged and turbocharger feed of exhaust gases, it makes sense that on the golf R the exhaust is open for a bit more to feed the turbocharger properly since the turbocharger on the R is a bigger one than the one on the GTI, simple, right?? 🤔
Thank you for this video , I have my 2017 gti stock internals running 10.5 @ 133 1.5 60” hybrid turbo just fbo I love VW I love this motors gen3 for me the best fwd since 2015 now this winter I’m going run low 10s maybe high 9s soooo VW gen3 motors FTW
You know what I got this video recommended to me - and seeing your face on thumbnail made me smile and instantly clicked on it. I missed the evenings I spend watching your content! glad to be back! :D
The actuator for VVT in the intake cam for the R is what I think is the big price difference between the two. I would open those things up and see if they're different? Advancing and retarding the timing of the intake cam is important. IMO I'm just a Volvo guy who's first car was MK 2 GTi and still peeks over the fence at Audi/VW every now and then. Great video, very informative.
20yrs a VW service advisor, but also a fan of Euro cars in general. This vid is insane! You are incredible, and also a bit insane for this deep-dive. Thanks for all you do! Side note: My beloved E46 ZHP needed to be replaced due to a terminal electrical failure. I leased a right-off-the-truck 13’ GTi Driver’s Edition, 6m, from the dealer I worked for. Great price. Built like shit and the only unreliable VW I owned in said 20yrs. None of the interior trim was snapped in, fog light and tail light burned out on the 10-mile drive home. Foreshadowing. Anyway, a client with an indy shop offered me a Stage I tune, for free, to give my opinion on and send him clients. Great! At 9k miles, clutch started slipping, badly. My gf at the time used to beat on the car more than I did, so I figured it was the tune and the gf. My VW factory rep said to replace everything needed under warranty, even though I had a TD1 flag from replacing the nav unit after the tune was done. Great guy! I decided to go for Golf R clutch kit due to the tune. Much to my surprise, same part numbers as the regular GTi that I had. Same everything, from the flywheel, to the clutch, pressure plate, etc. I was perplexed, but went back with all-factory due to it being a lease. The next clutch kit lasted until 65k miles when I turned the car in and replaced it with a 17’ Golf Wolfsburg, and then the 19’ Alltrack that I still own and love. I will die on the hill of the factory clutch and/or pressure plate being junk from the factory, and the tune had nothing to do with it. Nor my gf. lol.
Not sure if you skipped over it or what, but the oil pumps are also different, possibly different relief valve springs. And the 19+ GTI oil pump is very noticeably different on the sprocket.
Every part is practically interchangeable. The Golf R has “stronger” internals from the factory, but the weird thing is when both the GTI and Golf R’s engine’s are tuned to max capacity (meaning max power before the engine needs to be rebuilt), the capacity that’s reached is basically the same. 600hp/500tq is each engines threshold before needing to be rebuilt. So really, what’s the purpose of the Golf R’s “stronger” internals if it does nothing for the power or longevity of its motor? Lol. It’s just a talking point for Golf R owners lol.
I thought it was basically the same engine and that it was mainly electronically limited ... and then of course a difference in turbo and everything around.
All R engines have had some differences internally from the GTI. It typically isn't much just like you see here, but there's always been something on all of the generations.
@@makingwaves1239It's comforting that there are actually some differences, for the higher temperatures that you experience when you're running it harder.
@@ByteSizedSociety : I agree on that, but I guess that people that buy both the GTI and the R cars are buying them for running them hard ... at least periodically 🙂
To be honest, there's no overheating and thermal issues with a GTI engine that's been boosted up with hybrid turbo and such, if the owner actually does their homework and equips upgrades with appropriate intercooling, intake efficiency, and a high quality tune that doesn't lean the fueling out.
I had a GTI head on a golf R block all purchased from IE during their engine program. The exhaust channel was supposedly better flow on the gti because of the 2nd air port. I made 583whp and ran a 10.2@135 holding the record on the xl turbo for a few years.... i think they were onto something 🤷♂️
ShopDap doing all GTI owners a big favor here, as well as the entire internet. Now Golf R owners really don’t have that much to say regarding their engine.
In warm forging there is a process where you cut off the excess material around the edge during the forging that creates a sometimes rough surface with lines as shown in this video, those lines comes from cutting nothing else,,, -former industrial blacksmith
No one knows the real torque limit on these cranks, but I will say that the cast crank torque limit is less than the forged one. Whatever that would be.
@@exothermal.sprocket I’m sure someone has found out how much torque is too much torque on a stock bottom end of a 1.8t by now lol Been out over a decade atp
I used chat gpt for the different exhaust cam profiles. For the golf R exhaust cam it would improve top end power, but you lose some low end torque. Longer duration means more air and fuel compared to the golf gti. Great video man, if I am wrong, please someone correct me. All love!
On the vales you need to check valve angles. a 45° valve angle is an angle that needs less valve spring pressure than a 40° valve angle, but the 40° has better low lift air flow, but requires more valve spring pressure.
Love the video. Going from a 1.8T to a Golf R this answered a lot of the questions I had back then. However I do have a question what Manaual or Publication do you use to build these motors?
That's cool. Only minor differences between the two. The Golf R is definitely better. There are ways for Golf R owners to save and GTI owners to make small mechanical differences. The narrator jokes about the oil squirters, but it's a definite upgrade if you are there and your going to run higher than stock boost.
Really interesting topic. I always assumed that the more powerful engine from the factory was the better one, until I heard about the Ford Focus MK3 ST/RS. If you want more power in the RS, you switch to the ST block.
@@Mad_Rass.mk6gli totally disagree mate. The GTI TCR and Cupra are both faster thant he Golf R around the nurburgring and on a roll which is more liked what you would race someone off on the street. The Cupra and GTI TCR are like 150kg lighter and dont have 12-15 percent drive train loss. I owned a cupra before my RS3 and it never ever once got beat by a GOLF R. Always big gaps. Sure though if you love booting it from traffic lights sure. I dont hammer any car iv got in first gear or launch them. Its too harsh on the transmission. So i wouldnt ever want a golf r... I think a GTI PP and then slap on a IS38 would be the best bang for your buck.
@@johnboy2436 definitely could agree on that point as well but 1) this video is comparing a base GTI to a base R and 2) Here in North America we unfortunately do not have the tcr, clubsport, any seat/ cupra’s/ skoda’s so that’s also not a fair comparison haha. The only valid one is the PP GTI plenty of people here especially on the east coast are already at the limits of the factory LSD.
@@Mad_Rass.mk6gli Yes but the GTI PP with an IS38 is pretty much the same as a cupra which is faster than a golf R. I dont own one so thats not why im saying this however... it seems like a very good route to go. I would do all the labour myself... probably take a day to get the turbo changed over. Bang for buck you cant go wrong with a GTi PP. I didnt even realize the USA didnt have these models... that sucks.
This is pretty interesting. I always thought the Golf R had more engine upgrades than you mentioned. The Camshafts price difference is nuts for basically the same design! Pretty funny humor in this one. 😂
Wish you could do a video on the difference between a CXCB and DJJA motor, but this video was still cool to see the difference between a CXCA AND CYFB motor
Great to know. My 2016 Mexican GTI has run APR stage one tune since new. No other mods. 60,000+ miles no issues, not even a clutch. I do run 93 octane religiously. Keep the revs up and don’t lug it. Just traded our 2017 Golf R with 88,000 miles and no issues for a new Golf R. Enjoy Paul’s videos.
APR stg1 offers 91octane as well, so there's no need to be so religious if you can't find that special fuel sauce. Any spark plug changes recommended (1 step cooler)?
@@Propturner same, no plug changes for me. Switched the uni tune from 93 to 91 as I fill up often at Costco now. When coil packs needed changing, I installed a new set from APR.
The differences in exhaust timing are as follows: Since the valves on the Golf R are open for a longer duration, this means that the intake and exhaust valves are open simultaneously for a longer period. This results in: 1. Improved cylinder scavenging: The combustion chamber is flushed more efficiently, leading to better (more complete) combustion in the subsequent cycle and thus higher power output. Additionally, complete combustion within the engine is gentler on the turbocharger, which is likely another reason for implementing this design. 2. Slightly increased fuel consumption: This is due to the so-called scavenging losses, which are unavoidable when the valve timing overlaps i am sure there are more things but this is what comes to my mind
Due to the inlet and exhaust valves being open together for a short time. Boost pressure will help force out exhaust gasses. This will cause a small loss in boost pressure dependent on the overlap duration . I'm not an expert I have no numbers to share .
![PASULOL รามเกียรติ์ ตอนที่ 4 นนทกพบรัก [Ramakien Ep.4: Nonthok in love]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tMUQgmZzf_A/mqdefault.jpg)
Vag go to the effort of using forged rods, forged cranks and optimising the rest of the design. Then they fit it with a plastic sump and plastic waterpump housing.
Better than a plastic crank and a forged water pump
@@Deutscheautoparts LOL
So optimising those parts too. Over building something is just as pointless as under building it. If its going to work long enough to see the warranty out, save weight and cost why wouldn't they use it?
@@siraff4461 They are not optimised though, as they regularly fail. The cost cutting isn't worth the adverse reliability reputation that the brand suffers when they continually fail.
@@simonh870 Thats a calculation they have to make. If its not worth it they will change the design on the next version. Like that annoying heater control system from the mk8 that nobody liked. The 8,5 doesn't make it perfect but it fixes the main problem people had.
So, basically adding 50-60 whp aka a typical stage 1 on a GTI shouldn’t negatively impact engine reliability much. Thanks for doing this!
Yep but i mean we've known this dudes have been running stage one from end of warranty until end of life since the 2.0T came out with the mk5
Nope. And the kicker is if both the GTI and the Golf R engines upgraded their turbos to the same hybrid turbo, and ran the same exact software, both engines would make the same exact power and it’s “reliably threshold” would be exactly the same.
So the moral of the story is that the Golf R’s engine isn’t different enough to actually deem it a stronger engine lol. It’s just all pointless talking points that Golf R owners try to argue to make them feel better about their car…
Just don't go crazy w custom tunes like some start bragging my tune has more power bla bla... Stay w an off-the-shelf tune, those usually are on the conservative side. Do your oil changes maybe 1 to 2k miles earlier, always 93oct regardless if tune is for 89 or 91, run one step colder spark plugs, always let the engine warm up (for me is about 15min of driving) before giving it the beans.
And of course, do your timing chain within the recommended service interval.
These engines run extremely well when tuned, the ECM is super smart and protects the engine against detonation.
Yeah, it will be just as unreliable as it was before.
Stage 1? I'm at stage 3+ with an IS38 turbo and an e48 tune. 400hp. Been no issues at all for 3+ years. This is as big as I'm comfortable with going in terms of reliability.
FYI: The spring performace measuring device is a Boing-ometer.
I thought it was called a wheredidthatgo-ometer
.. And you have to call yourself Q-Bert, and speak like him, for the entire day of measurement...for accuracy's sake.
😂😂😂
@@ByteSizedSociety It's only science!
@@UncleRayRayGarageEmporium ❤️👍🏻
thanks paul, cant wait for the next video in 3 months.
I know! Quality > Quantity as they say 😞
I stopped waiting, new episodes just pop up randomly and they are the best
LMFAO!!!!!!!
i bet the mk5 golf 5 got him bankrupt
@@GS-350-AWD Not as bankrupt as after that GTI cam in the R will make him if he was somehow wrong. Maybe.
i personally never have owned any vw/audi, but your channel is legit af. I particularly like the whole "the internet says" vs actual facts.
It's Ok that means you don't like children 😊
@@PatrickArcato What the hell are you talking about?
@@PatrickArcato what are you on?
@@Brycerzzz They're cars for those kind of people
@@PatrickArcato You like children?
Nice to see some of the differences side by side! Great content and thanks for the mention!
The extra duration on the exhaust lobe is to sacrifice a little efficiency at low load for an increase in exhaust gas to the turbo at higher load. In other words it helps response with that larger turbo but will likely use a little more fuel around town.
This makes sense to me intuitively as a neophyte!
I read somewhere that in the EA888.4 engine more exhaust is directed through the EGR to heat the engine faster thus reducing emissions. It may already be in the EA888.3 R engine along with the copper alloy head? Also the coolant specification for the Gen 4 engine is different than for Gen 3 possibly indicating more Cu in the alloy, requiring a coolant less corrosive? The Gen 4 also has a Continental turbo not IHI. I just bought a T-ROC R with the gen 4 engine, so have been slowly learning about it.
How come the engine looks so weird and 220hp turbo is wildly weak and inefficient like compared to a honda k series it looks like a cheap toy from performance to design and visually lol. Is that just a vw thing?
@@repingers9777 VW owners don't give a damn about your k series engines, nor do we give a damn about your opinion. Go back to your ricer videos.
@@einfelder8262 Its exactly that. The gen 4 is just massaged to get through the later EU emissions regs. Warm up and temperature control are critical at that level of emission scrutiny. Its not just the engines ability to pass more heat off but also its ability to keep the temperature as close to optimal as possible over as much of the operating time as possible.
Fast warm up and cat heating is critical for lower cold start emisions but that wouldn't work well on a GPF car if it had to run hot which gives more NOx so it has to get hot fast then level out and hold temperature well - hence the different materials used.
You pointed out the relatively small difference in size of the R and GTI under cylinder spray/cooling tubes and you didn’t seem to think it was a big deal. Flow through a tube is proportional to the 4th power of tube radius. A very small increase in radius can increase flow significantly. I have no idea what the numbers would be for these cars, but I wouldn’t assume the difference in cooling between them would be negligible. The difference may surprise you. Sometimes the little details make a big difference.
You can find the actual Audi SSP detailing the changes from the 2.0T low output (is20) to the high output engines (is38). And yes, the valves are different materials.
We need a link/vid
You're doing the Lord's work here.
and God regularly punishes Paul... commonly seen on video...
The lord says vw stopped making good engines worth rebuilding in 2005.
@@fastinradfordableAnd the devil replied EA888.
Built by the Germans to punish the Jews 🤣
Indeed. Amen 🙏🏽
Many moons ago didn't want to pay Golf R prices so I bought a GTI (2008) brand new. That year the late 08's had the TSI but you could still flash the ecu without pulling it. Also the TSI fueling was better that year. It wasn't long before my favorite shop had me talked into a Revo K04 swap. Drove that car with zero problems for 12 years and most of it was on either software and 3/4 of that was with the K04. On top of that I ran the OEM clutch without issue to 130,000 miles and replaced it with OEM and finally sold it at 150,000 miles. The car overall was just such a great daily driver and bang for the buck. Video brought back a ton of memories.
I really miss my Mk5 GTI. It just started to become a money pit when we started to have a longer commute, but to this day it's still the car I miss giving up of almost everything else I've driven.
Awesome comparison video. Mk6 GTI were made in Germany. Mk7 GTI all in Mexico. I had both. No engine issues whatsoever.
Enjoyable and soothing content over my morning coffee. Paul's voice is angelic 😂😂😂
Sold my GTI over 1 year ago but this kinda stuff is why I stay subscribed. Great breakdown!
Great video man!! This is what real car enthousiasts want to see! VERY informative and exactly the things you want to see when checking the difference, all so clear now thanks again
@8:36 If you ever need to check the performance/characteristics of a spring, you can setup a simple device using a rod and a dead weight. You slip the spring circling the rod and drop the dead weight on top of the spring to see how much compression.
Now do the 2.5l; VW vs Audi! Great vid!
Oooh I would love that
agree
Those horizontal lines on the connecting rods happen when the flash is cut from the rod in a trim press. Also there will never be a smooth surface found on a forged part without it going through some sort of machining to make it smooth. Identifying a forged part is fairly simple once you know what to look for. BTW you can have letters in forged parts in certain areas but not on others like the skirt area of a piston.
Slightly off topic, but forged wrenches get put in huge tumblers full of rubbing stones to make them smooth, which is kind of interesting I guess.
Crank shaft seems to have a sand cast finish and not a forge finish will say that as my 2c
Could be wrong but just looks like trimmed riser blocks and pour gates to me
Thanks for making this, it's really interesting to know what's inside these cars, and how they make parts you can't see different. Also it's nice to see the engineering nitty gritty instead of the marketing we have all heard a million times.
Love the video and dispelling the theories and rhetoric. Good work Paul. We could do with more people like you in the world. Straight talking, problem solving. And when you don't know, you say so love it!!!😊
Thanks for this good video. Due to my 30+ years in automotive parts industry, I found that factories sell the same part in different part numbers and prices. I've once extracted the coded ( Monroe ) shock absorber specifications DVD and found out that the factory doesn't really produce 25k different shock absorbers, and each shock absorber comes in almost 60 different part numbers. This is how to make money
I agree with others, the cam lift duration on the R cam being little longer is to cope with a bigger R turbo and keep good pick as that turbo going to take marginally longer to pick up.
Be interesting on results using a GTi cam in the R engine probably won’t feel much different just maybe bit more hesitant on low rpm pick up.
Longer duration can actually have the exhaust valve open long enough to stay open while the intake valve begins to open.
Thank you for confirming my purchase of a Golf R like 6 years ago.
Phantastic Paul. Brilliant walk through and research.
One clarification though; the lines on the edge of a forged item is from the die that cuts off the surplus metal.
And your occasional gibberish puts a grin on my face. Let’s keep that. 👍🏻
just to note that the valve lift is the difference between the highest and the lowest point of the lobe, not just the highest point, great to see this in detail.
Damn...the 1.8TSI having forged rods is news to me. Thanks for the break down and comparison!
The correct way to measure cam lift is to zero out your calipers at the base circle and getting the tip of the lobe after. Even in modern engines there will be measurable differences in lobe base circles.
Would be cool to get a Seat Leon Cupra engine 280-290 or 300 version and see the difference between all 3 engines since they run the same engine aswell
I thought the Cupra‘s and Golf 7 R are using pretty much the same engine (CJXC, CJXG, …)?
@@erikeey_8675correct
Perfect video , confirming a lot of the information I have gathered . Notice how the hardcore GTI/A3 peeps don't have really much to say in these comments? LOL On the forums every other sentence is " Yeah, my GTI has THE SAME EXACT engine as your Golf R, except the turbo, you shouldn't have spent the extra money on the Golf R". WELL, now everyone can see it is worth EVERY PENNY to spend the bit of extra money for the Golf R- " MADE IN GERMANY" vs " MADE IN MEXICO
lol that enough would persuade me to get the Golf R every time.... YES the max torque being 450 ft/lbs in both engines is about right, however, for longevity and stage 3 levels the Golf R will very likely make out much better in the long run being that the GOlf R engine is built for higher power levels clearly.
perhaps the duration on the R cams is how they got away with not having to use secondary air due to "EGR" is done on the exhaust cam
Now that is good thinking. I am looking forward to the next video to see if they also come to this conclusion.
If the exhaust cam duration is long enough, the negative wave will return from the exhaust port and travel across the cylinder and up the intake port since the intake valve may already be opening before the exhaust valve shuts. There's tuning reasons for all of this. Of course all the stupid emissions laws really makes it tough for manufacturers to actually tune cam timing between IN and EX in a way for max power, exhaust scavenging, and the like.
That is what is identical in scientific principle between a 4-stroke and 2-stroke, is the exhaust pressure waves and how they affect cylinder efficiency.
@@exothermal.sprocket awesome.
The Germany stamped blocks were also made in Hungary at the Audi factory in Győr. I worked for Auid for 2 years, where the blocks get machined.
Ah yes, the suck, squeeze, bang and blow
Oooooooh! F*ck
😂
Sounds familiar🤣🤣🤣
I'm gonna do that to you zoinked
That’s what I told her. 😁
At the center of your being you have the answer; you know who you are and you know what you want.
Aside from the actual alloy of the cast (which I didn't expect), there doesn't seem to be much of a difference between GTI and R.
Sure, the small differences can do something for long-term use and wear. But IMO nothing seems to crazy to see it as a "must have" upgrade over the GTI.
Very interesting, and great video idea!
Agreed. The biggest practical difference is the turbo itself and the exhaust lobe profile change to accommodate the difference in turbo response and feel. A stage 1 GTI tune is making more power than the standard Golf R tune to begin with, so it's not surprising given they're essentially the same motors and I'm not aware of any real increases in engine failures on tuned GTIs. Makes sense given the internals are essentially the same where it actually matters for making power reliably between both the R and GTI.
The horizontal lines on the forged rods are from a grinder to remove the flashing from the forge process.
I've had a mk8 GTI over a year now and have bought a handful of parts from DAP and am not sure why I'm not subscribed to this channel. Well... now I am lol
Thank you so much for the purchases we appreciate the support very much.
This is so cool. Love compare and contrast vids like this. Especially when the things being compared aren’t easily accessible to the general public but they’re still things people wonder about. This is what TH-cam is for!
There’s absolutely no way Paul isn’t the funniest person on earth
Perfect timing on this series. Im planning on building a new engine this winter for my mk7 gti 🤘
I paused @ 0:32
Thank you for your time and effort putting this video together.......whilst "tearing down" the engines.
Great VW content. it's all in the details, and sometimes the interwebs are quick to talk without truth behind it.
I love these technical videos, helps me learn more about and love my 19 R even more. Cant wait to see what you do to your R!
3:18 - So VW guys can officially say their Vtec kicked in yo?
Addition: Not all 1.8T's have cast cranks. And even if they do have one (for example early 1.8t's like AEB or AGU), they can take up to like 800-900hp with ease
Now I wonder what would be the difference, if any, with the Macan’s Ea888
You are important enough to ask and you are blessed enough to receive back.
Is it possible the Golf R cam is solid billet, as opposed to the pressed on lobes of the GTI cam? What would definitely make it more expensive, as the machining is more complex.
most performance cars use hollow camshafts save weight for rotational mass for reving. I seriously doubt the R engine has billet anything on it.
@eppyz yes, but I was referring to the initial blank. The shaft of a billet cam can be bored. It would certainly be easier and cheaper to machine the lobes and press them on, but then what *is* the difference between the two intake cams, and why is the R cam $800ish more?
@@jameshaulenbeek5931 Most likely due to production. They Sell 10 GTI's for every 1 R. Less parts being made, prices go up. Yes there might be a minute difference, but probably not one worth $1000 US more. Paul will find out when he installs the GTI Cam.
The quality of these videos is just so good! And Paul steady keeps me chuckling. Love you DAP 🎉
I get so fired up when I see a new DAP video. Love the content.
In a casting or an injection molding the line is often called a “witness line” as in witness here is where two parts of the tool came together. In forging the tool doesn’t necessarily come together, but leaves a piece of material to be trimmed off.
Higher copper in the aluminum alloy can also mean a higher likelihood of corrosion.
When you say a more sustainable engine, don’t you mean a more reliable one? Sustainable means I’ll be able to fix it down the road, reliable means I won’t have to. 😁
Keep up your comparisons and keep adding in your outside experts! 👍
And this trimmed off piece is quite thick. The vertical marks are from machining the trimmed part off and grinding it flush.
Very interesting info here, about the intake cams, I'm wondering if the cam phasers maybe move a few more degrees on the GolfR, maybe but who knows for sure.
I remember the alloy subject from when I built my 1.8t... The head with copper (Cu) in it dissipates heat better, but can form cracks between the valve seats more easily under higher boost.
(4:20) well since both engines are turbocharged and turbocharger feed of exhaust gases, it makes sense that on the golf R the exhaust is open for a bit more to feed the turbocharger properly since the turbocharger on the R is a bigger one than the one on the GTI, simple, right?? 🤔
Also cause there's more stuff going into the cylinder and thus more stuff needs to get out.
When the intake lobe is different than the exhaust lobe is called a dual pattern cam.
This is usually done to compensate for exhaust flow resistance.
Moral of the story. They are both GREAT
Thank you for this video , I have my 2017 gti stock internals running 10.5 @ 133 1.5 60” hybrid turbo just fbo I love VW I love this motors gen3 for me the best fwd since 2015 now this winter I’m going run low 10s maybe high 9s soooo VW gen3 motors FTW
The quality of metals!
You know what I got this video recommended to me - and seeing your face on thumbnail made me smile and instantly clicked on it. I missed the evenings I spend watching your content! glad to be back! :D
The actuator for VVT in the intake cam for the R is what I think is the big price difference between the two. I would open those things up and see if they're different? Advancing and retarding the timing of the intake cam is important. IMO I'm just a Volvo guy who's first car was MK 2 GTi and still peeks over the fence at Audi/VW every now and then. Great video, very informative.
20yrs a VW service advisor, but also a fan of Euro cars in general. This vid is insane! You are incredible, and also a bit insane for this deep-dive. Thanks for all you do!
Side note:
My beloved E46 ZHP needed to be replaced due to a terminal electrical failure. I leased a right-off-the-truck 13’ GTi Driver’s Edition, 6m, from the dealer I worked for. Great price. Built like shit and the only unreliable VW I owned in said 20yrs. None of the interior trim was snapped in, fog light and tail light burned out on the 10-mile drive home. Foreshadowing.
Anyway, a client with an indy shop offered me a Stage I tune, for free, to give my opinion on and send him clients. Great!
At 9k miles, clutch started slipping, badly. My gf at the time used to beat on the car more than I did, so I figured it was the tune and the gf. My VW factory rep said to replace everything needed under warranty, even though I had a TD1 flag from replacing the nav unit after the tune was done. Great guy!
I decided to go for Golf R clutch kit due to the tune. Much to my surprise, same part numbers as the regular GTi that I had. Same everything, from the flywheel, to the clutch, pressure plate, etc. I was perplexed, but went back with all-factory due to it being a lease.
The next clutch kit lasted until 65k miles when I turned the car in and replaced it with a 17’ Golf Wolfsburg, and then the 19’ Alltrack that I still own and love.
I will die on the hill of the factory clutch and/or pressure plate being junk from the factory, and the tune had nothing to do with it. Nor my gf. lol.
Not sure if you skipped over it or what, but the oil pumps are also different, possibly different relief valve springs. And the 19+ GTI oil pump is very noticeably different on the sprocket.
Every part is practically interchangeable. The Golf R has “stronger” internals from the factory, but the weird thing is when both the GTI and Golf R’s engine’s are tuned to max capacity (meaning max power before the engine needs to be rebuilt), the capacity that’s reached is basically the same. 600hp/500tq is each engines threshold before needing to be rebuilt. So really, what’s the purpose of the Golf R’s “stronger” internals if it does nothing for the power or longevity of its motor? Lol. It’s just a talking point for Golf R owners lol.
They were designed by German engineers. These people are anal and cannot leave things alone.....
I agree the only reason a golf r over the gti would be for the 4wd not the engine
Warranty claims, and a premium auto gets premium parts.
If you tune it to the max or at all. VW gets to wash thier hands of your issue.
@@billmccormick874
Captain obvious over here 😂
Lol everything about the golf r is a talking point for their owners.
Great breakdown,have GTI 6 Stage 2 and Downpipe,180000km no Problems,Run and Run😎💪
I thought it was basically the same engine and that it was mainly electronically limited ... and then of course a difference in turbo and everything around.
All R engines have had some differences internally from the GTI. It typically isn't much just like you see here, but there's always been something on all of the generations.
@@COMotorsports Yeah, I see that now. I just was not aware before 🙂
@@makingwaves1239It's comforting that there are actually some differences, for the higher temperatures that you experience when you're running it harder.
@@ByteSizedSociety : I agree on that, but I guess that people that buy both the GTI and the R cars are buying them for running them hard ... at least periodically 🙂
To be honest, there's no overheating and thermal issues with a GTI engine that's been boosted up with hybrid turbo and such, if the owner actually does their homework and equips upgrades with appropriate intercooling, intake efficiency, and a high quality tune that doesn't lean the fueling out.
I had a GTI head on a golf R block all purchased from IE during their engine program. The exhaust channel was supposedly better flow on the gti because of the 2nd air port.
I made 583whp and ran a 10.2@135 holding the record on the xl turbo for a few years.... i think they were onto something 🤷♂️
ShopDap doing all GTI owners a big favor here, as well as the entire internet. Now Golf R owners really don’t have that much to say regarding their engine.
Not much, apart that it is a better engine.
That EA888 is almost bullet proof and can safely handle stage 2 tunes of around 450hp/425 lb ft with the DSG. Maybe even more?
Excellent video mate. Do it in gens 4 (Evo 4) 245 vs 320 hp
In warm forging there is a process where you cut off the excess material around the edge during the forging that creates a sometimes rough surface with lines as shown in this video, those lines comes from cutting nothing else,,,
-former industrial blacksmith
Do the 3.2 vs the 3.6 VR6 !
Very informative! Thanks for doing all the work to show the differences and non-differences between the engines.
Nooooo not the cast crank on the 1.8t Gen3 😫
Explains the torque limit being 340ftlbs(ish) but the limit on the 2.0ts being like 500 lolw
Cast crank! Oh that would explain why the 1.8 is detuned so much (or rather the power goal was only 180hp, so a cast crank was fine?).
No one knows the real torque limit on these cranks, but I will say that the cast crank torque limit is less than the forged one. Whatever that would be.
@@exothermal.sprocket I’m sure someone has found out how much torque is too much torque on a stock bottom end of a 1.8t by now lol
Been out over a decade atp
The 1.8 will do 300hp/tq all day. This does confirm to me that I should swap in a forged crank though…
@@ryan225360 yeah it’s good with less 375 or so I’ve seen before issues… but yeah swap out that crank yolo
I used chat gpt for the different exhaust cam profiles. For the golf R exhaust cam it would improve top end power, but you lose some low end torque. Longer duration means more air and fuel compared to the golf gti. Great video man, if I am wrong, please someone correct me. All love!
Now do the same for the MK8, you have a gti and know w guy with a R. Lol
Really loving these more in depth/informational videos!
Very informative. Nice.
On the vales you need to check valve angles. a 45° valve angle is an angle that needs less valve spring pressure than a 40° valve angle, but the 40° has better low lift air flow, but requires more valve spring pressure.
Now do a A3 vs S3!
The a3/s3 have the same motors as the gti/r
Thanks for including some of the 1.8t stuff!
You didnt mention the differences in the piston rings, curious what you observe
Love the video. Going from a 1.8T to a Golf R this answered a lot of the questions I had back then. However I do have a question what Manaual or Publication do you use to build these motors?
Came for the engine stayed for the memes
That's cool. Only minor differences between the two. The Golf R is definitely better.
There are ways for Golf R owners to save and GTI owners to make small mechanical differences.
The narrator jokes about the oil squirters, but it's a definite upgrade if you are there and your going to run higher than stock boost.
I don't own a car and I watched the whole thing
Really interesting topic. I always assumed that the more powerful engine from the factory was the better one, until I heard about the Ford Focus MK3 ST/RS. If you want more power in the RS, you switch to the ST block.
we needed this video. So might aswel get a GTI and slap a turbo on it. Differences are minor
Engine wise yes but awd and suspension makes it worth it depending on application haha
@@Mad_Rass.mk6gli totally disagree mate. The GTI TCR and Cupra are both faster thant he Golf R around the nurburgring and on a roll which is more liked what you would race someone off on the street. The Cupra and GTI TCR are like 150kg lighter and dont have 12-15 percent drive train loss. I owned a cupra before my RS3 and it never ever once got beat by a GOLF R. Always big gaps. Sure though if you love booting it from traffic lights sure.
I dont hammer any car iv got in first gear or launch them. Its too harsh on the transmission. So i wouldnt ever want a golf r... I think a GTI PP and then slap on a IS38 would be the best bang for your buck.
@@johnboy2436 definitely could agree on that point as well but 1) this video is comparing a base GTI to a base R and 2) Here in North America we unfortunately do not have the tcr, clubsport, any seat/ cupra’s/ skoda’s so that’s also not a fair comparison haha. The only valid one is the PP GTI plenty of people here especially on the east coast are already at the limits of the factory LSD.
@@Mad_Rass.mk6gli Yes but the GTI PP with an IS38 is pretty much the same as a cupra which is faster than a golf R. I dont own one so thats not why im saying this however... it seems like a very good route to go. I would do all the labour myself... probably take a day to get the turbo changed over. Bang for buck you cant go wrong with a GTi PP. I didnt even realize the USA didnt have these models... that sucks.
@@johnboy2436 yeah vw basically told us to lick their taint with that one😂😭 we do however get manual mk8’s tho so I guess we have something.
This is pretty interesting. I always thought the Golf R had more engine upgrades than you mentioned. The Camshafts price difference is nuts for basically the same design! Pretty funny humor in this one. 😂
I want this for MK8 🙂
My 7 GTI on which i just rebuilt the motor, does not have that secondary air injection, also threw in a set of those 9.3:1 7R pistons
Mexician made GTI? Maybe in North Americia but not elsewhere. Believe it or not some viewers of this channel are in other parts of the world.
Nerd
Golf r here, uk if that matters, 132000 miles, original turbo, water pump changed, no tunes to my knowledge, not lost any power. Relaible so far.
Wish you could do a video on the difference between a CXCB and DJJA motor, but this video was still cool to see the difference between a CXCA AND CYFB motor
Great to know. My 2016 Mexican GTI has run APR stage one tune since new. No other mods. 60,000+ miles no issues, not even a clutch. I do run 93 octane religiously. Keep the revs up and don’t lug it. Just traded our 2017 Golf R with 88,000 miles and no issues for a new Golf R. Enjoy Paul’s videos.
2016 TT at 102,000 miles with unitronic stage 1+ ECU/TCU since 5,000 miles. No issues other than the typical items (water pump and cam solenoid)
APR stg1 offers 91octane as well, so there's no need to be so religious if you can't find that special fuel sauce. Any spark plug changes recommended (1 step cooler)?
I don’t recall any spark plug changes back in 2016. And yes, no harm running 91 octane occasionally. But that’s very rare for me.
@@Propturner same, no plug changes for me. Switched the uni tune from 93 to 91 as I fill up often at Costco now. When coil packs needed changing, I installed a new set from APR.
The differences in exhaust timing are as follows: Since the valves on the Golf R are open for a longer duration, this means that the intake and exhaust valves are open simultaneously for a longer period. This results in:
1. Improved cylinder scavenging: The combustion chamber is flushed more efficiently, leading to better (more complete) combustion in the subsequent cycle and thus higher power output. Additionally, complete combustion within the engine is gentler on the turbocharger, which is likely another reason for implementing this design.
2. Slightly increased fuel consumption: This is due to the so-called scavenging losses, which are unavoidable when the valve timing overlaps
i am sure there are more things but this is what comes to my mind
Due to the inlet and exhaust valves being open together for a short time. Boost pressure will help force out exhaust gasses. This will cause a small loss in boost pressure dependent on the overlap duration . I'm not an expert I have no numbers to share .
Very cool idea to compare both engines in detail. Thank you! 👍
This was a great idea for a video and very cool to see! Thank you for your time
I was wondering this yesterday. It's like you read my mind, Paul.
Really good video, lots of info and questions answered. I had the "different metal" down as BS tbh, proved to be wrong. Subbed.
Don’t forget, you can also take the adjuster, sprocket pieces and swap onto the other cam for better result