ASL Grammar and the Deaf Community
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 พ.ค. 2019
- I answer a question I got via email about ASL students and grammar.
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I agree with this 200%. The #1 thing that stops my students from taking their ASL studies further is having their confidence shattered by people in the Deaf community wearing their Grammar Police uniforms and slapping endless citations on them... the true spirit of ASL and the Deaf community is the ability to communicate, plain and simple.
That "bridge" between both worlds is something that needs to be emphasized and valued greater than conversations that drag because it becomes a discussion of semantics.
It’s more a thing of “you’re not one of us”. And not all are like that. I remember a lot of good hearted deaf that made me live it but then I remember the ones who were more of the excluders.
My ASL professor has been focused more on building our vocabulary as opposed to stressing strict ASL order. I’ve found that helpful when I practice and when I watch others signing. If I can get all the words, it’s not so hard to piece together what the person is saying.
I'm hearing and have struggled to increase my fluency in ASL. Sometimes it's easier for me to understand PSE because of English being my first language and ASL being my third. What you said in you video means a lot to be because I've been exposed to the idea that my ASL is not just "bad" but "shameful", it made me embarrassed to sign. I'll try to focus on communication going forward.
yes! i have struggled with the same thing. one of my Deaf professor made me feel shameful for being so bad and it was only my third class... I still don't understand why i can't get it right. then my next Deaf professor told me she was so proud of me for pushing through and wanting to communicate. she said i was a natural. i guess it's good to experience both sides though to know what's to come.
Same. It makes me feel like I’m just bla. I remember back in college this snobby college girl going on about how I wouldn’t be using sign in my life like her. Well yeah maybe because she was so discouraging. I mean how did she know. Maybe had i not been made to feel like that maybe I would have gone that way as I did try to go back to it after my time in the army… ugh anyway…
I actually had a conversation with a patient of mine the other day about grammar. He knows I’m still learning and that I’m mostly self taught, so when I use more English based signs he still understands me. Most of my patients are just happy I can communicate with them.
I would be so thrilled I wouldn’t know how to respond if I had a dr care enough to learn my language! Especially my audiologist!!! How is ASL not part of the medical course if you’re specialty is hearing or the lack of???
I've been studying ASL for about 3 years and I had become very discouraged. I really appreciate this video. Thank you.
I agree also. Fact: Deaf communities are better educated now than ever before. A larger percentage have college degrees and work in higher paying jobs. I'm 59 years old and I have witnessed the changes. I'm often told my signs are old school ASL. I'm watching videos daily to improve my vocabulary in SEE. By the way I'm hearing and learning Sign Language opened my heart and eyes to the deaf and HOH community.
I think I generally agree with this. I think it's noteworthy when Rogan says that he (and most of his friends) are comfortable using both Englishy-signing and a more strong ASL style. Because I think that's what hearing signers should strive for. If you want to work or socialize within the Deaf community, you should aim to be comfortable communicating along that range from SEE/PSE to strong ASL. If you can do that, then you can communicate with a broad range of Deaf people. And that's cool. If you want to become an interpreter, for example, you should be able to do that.
I also think ASL teachers generally think that hearing students can probably sign English pretty easily, but they really need lots of practice signing ASL. So they tend to stress ASL in their classes. They figure the students will pick up the signed English themselves, they don't really need to be explicitly taught signed English. But they do need to be taught ASL. And that makes sense, I think, from the teacher's perspective.
Shrug. My two cents.
Yep, I agree on stressing ASL in the classroom, making sure they understand the grammar. But like I responded to a couple other people, I'm worried about some teachers overemphasizing the importance of it, and that in turn discourages some ASL students from continuing because they struggle with grammar. Which is not what we want at all!
@@RoganShannon13 and that is true for me just in trying to learn myself and listening to some TH-cam folks with no "formal training." Really glad that I found other TH-cam channels, like yours- that discuss such struggles, so that I might continue my learning and don't let my eagerness to learn get snuffed out or die, ya know?
@@RoganShannon13 This would been very helpful to take a class for English-oriented students to learn and understnd the grammar of ASL and this would have help many students learn the differences btw English and ASL. That would have improve tremendously. It is possible for ASL teachers may not have been exposed to English word order growing up before they became teachers. I truly believe that ASL should be learned in all ways whether it is English word order or ASL or in. between. We should all learn all equally without any shame here.
I am a sign language teacher and yes we encourage our student to use/sign 'propern sign language grammar' a lot in class to *remind* them of that way of signing - cos it is the unnatural way of signing for them SEE/PSE is easy for them
Wow, this is Great! I'm a first year hearing student, and I was always afraid that the deaf person I was talking to was judging me because of my bad signing. This really helps though.
I just finished an Introduction to Deaf Culture course (my final exam was on Tuesday). One big subject we went over was that ASL is a continuum of usage, from "true" ASL, to PSE, to SEE. This is true for other languages as well. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Agreed with you! Yes!
honestly, this video is such a relief! I'm 21 and have been going deaf since I was 14, and I've been learning ASL since I was 19 purely on the internet (starting formal classes this fall!) and I've been really worried about my grammar, mostly because it's a struggle for me so far (any new language is!) and I don't want to have a hard time in the Deaf community, the hearing world is hard enough lol. this is good to know, of course I want to learn ASL grammar, but knowing that not being perfect at it isn't gonna totally mark me as hearing (even though I'm not) is nice. thanks for sharing your opinion on this!
I agree with you! I think that if the goal is just to communicate with Deaf people, and not to be an interpreter then ASL grammar should be emphasized in the classroom, but not to the point of "you have to do it exactly perfect all the time every time or you're wrong." I am hearing, but I am currently studying to become an interpreter. In my case my teachers have constantly stressed the importance of "true" ASL grammar. They often say things like "that's not wrong, but it's not ASL." English is my first language, so my brain is usually in "English mode" and that's what comes easily to me, but I have to work to put it in "ASL mode." I think it is very important for me and others who want to be interpreters to work to learn and be comfortable with ASL grammar. If I were to rely heavily on only English order and grammar then I wouldn't be a very good interpreter. But if I know and am comfortable using ASL order and grammar then I can use whatever best fits the situation and the person that I am working with. Great discussion! 😊
Thanks for answering my question! This is one of the more interesting videos you've done, in my opinion. I'm dedicated in my ASL studies to learn the formal grammar of the language in its proper way, and I continue practicing it a lot on my own and among classmates; but I'm glad to see that for the majority of the Deaf community, I will at least not get yelled at if I try to have a conversation at a social event and lapse too much into English-style grammar and sentence order. Keep up the good work with your TH-cam channel!
DITTO!
I live in a state that has the only “School for the Deaf” in the Tri-State area so the hearing impaired community is large. I own my own company and have deaf customers and it was very difficult to have an important conversation without barriers as we had to write everything out to each other. A conversation that usually takes 15 minutes turned into an hour conversation so I decided to start learning SEE, PSE and ASL. Most of the deaf individuals were so thankful and touched that I was at least trying to learn to communicate with them. It’s not something that you learn in a few hours or months. It takes studying, researching, using money for resources, etc however, I felt it was my responsibility to learn how to communicate with them as they certainly can’t change their way of communicating. You can’t just undo a hearing impairment unlike other language barriers where both can learn the other language, for example: English and Spanish. I would love to take ASL courses however, I can’t afford to go back to college and spend thousands of dollars I don’t have. When I came across the shaming and hearing impaired individuals who were offended by my lack of perfection, I was pissed. I instantly felt that my dedication, time and sacrifices (yes, I did sacrifice time doing other things with family, friends, watching a movie I really wanted to see, etc and I sacrificed money for books and apps) was all in vain. Those naysayers impacted my respect for the hearing impaired and I quit trying to learn more sign language. I made sure I expressed this to any deaf person I communicated with which luckily, most of them were very upset that I had this experience. In fact, they were offended also by those shaming me. I did begin to continue learning the language as the positive was far greater than the negative. I recently was scolded by a hearing asl instructor and I ripped her butt for shaming me and informed her that her opinion is a minority in the deaf community. She apologized and I hope she changes her approach next time. Thank you for this video.
Thank you for sharing your experience! I'm glad you decided to continue with learning sign, the naysayers may be very loud and annoying, but they're a minority of the deaf community.
Just a tip for the future, try to avoid using the term "hearing impaired." Most deaf people deeply dislike that term, and it's one used mostly only by the medical community. Of course, if someone tells you they prefer to call themselves hearing impaired, do that! But generally, go with deaf/hard of hearing first.
Rogan Shannon oh my goodness, I am so sorry. I was told “deaf” was offensive. 🤦🏻♀️. I hope I didn’t offend you. Thanks for responding.
Rogan Shannon So I was chastised for using “hard of hearing” and I have to say, it was the straw that broke the camels back. I don’t like being called Miss, Kristy, Kris, short, obese etc but if I allowed myself to be offended by every.single.small.word....I would go mad. And I certainly don’t expect everyone to bow to my offenses. It’s childish and toxic. I have NEVER seen so much intolerance as I have in the deaf community, with the exception of a couple other “communities”. If my energy, time and sacrifices are not appreciated than I will no longer be associated with it. The negative outweighs the good in the overall. It’s sad that the bigotry and ignorance of most are impacting the accepting and encouraging individuals. I’m mad that i wasted so much time. I tried taking your advice and got scolded. I wanted to tell you this because what I was told, is that “hard of hearing” is the most offensive description there is. I give up. 🤷🏻♀️
Rogan thank you thank you thank you for all your content. This is so true also in the hearing community. Often hearing people speak proper English at work and conversational English with family and slang English with friends, etc. While learning any language, an instructor will focus on the most proper form of the language. Learning any new subject is best taught in the purest form, so students no variations after that.
Yep, I do understand emphasizing ASL grammar in the classroom, which is right and the way it should be. But I get concerned when some teachers overemphasize the importance of getting it right, because that will often discourage several ASL students from continuing the class if they struggle to get it right.
@@RoganShannon13 I was born Deaf and grew up in deaf world until I became culturally immersed in Deaf community. When I was a child, I was told not to have ASL in my hearing family until I went to college at aged 19. So I was used to English reading and word order while I was learning ASL. I was picked on simply because I am learning ASL as a start and didnt realize at first that ASL was not English. I dont think it is fair to pick on anyone trying to learn. We need to give credit to all who is learning ASL the best they can. Actually everyone is learning at their own pace and I dont see anything wrong with that. If I was a teacher, I would give all students their best shot in all ranges of ASL such as PSE, and pure ASL and in between. Everyone is different and ASL should accomodate to all.
My husband, had an uncle, born deaf. Long time ago. He made up his own launguge. Sign language! We can do anything that we put our minds too! Especially, to make connections.🙏😘
Thank you for this insight. My HoH professor barely addressed grammar in the semesters if ASL I took and my Deaf teacher in the community didn't address it at all with the exception of telling some of the less experienced students that they could leave certain words out.
Then I sign to small pieces of songs on tiktok just for practice with expanding my vocabulary and improving grammar/facial expressions and there seem to be a lot of gatekeepers that are super harsh on those just starting to learn because of grammar and if they tag it with both "asl" and "pse" while they're learning and trying to move towards more asl structure they can get kind of harsh.
I have a video about gatekeepers, they bother me a lot :P
@@RoganShannon13 I remember watching that one and my neck hurt from nodding so much!
Thank you for sharing this! Takes pressure off worrying if my grammar is perfect. ❤🤟🏻
Thank you! I’ve been signing most my life, but definitely more PSE, not strict ASL, and I’ve felt insecure about it when meeting new deaf/HoH people. I also volunteer at a deaf family camp In Ellensburg every Spring with a WIDE spectrum of signers (full ASL to new ASL students). My deaf friends don’t seem to be bothered with my signing, like you said... and my receptive skills are adequate enough to understand what those who use strict ASL are saying (most the time) 😜... anyway. Thank you for this message. My daughter volunteers at the WSDS deaf camp with me and is also insecure with not having the proper syntax. I’ve shared this video with her too. Hopefully will help us both have better confidence and stop doubting ourselves. THANK YOU AGAIN! 🙌🏼🤟🏼🤟🏼
As a linguist who has worked with minority language revitalization efforts, I feel like this echoes what I see there sometimes; there's a tension between assertion of identity by "speaking a pure form of the language" and the practicalities of admitting that we are all influenced by the languages we come into contact with.
Is there a way to connect with you? I have some questions. I live in an area with an endangered language and I have attended some seminars about preserving it but I still have questions about what has been successful in other places. I met a researcher from the Isle of Man and listened to her research and activities, but there's always more to learn!
@@johngrange1634 Oh wow! What I would suggest is that you head over to the Living Tongues Institute (livingtongues.org/) and get in touch with Greg Anderson or K David Harrison there. They'll direct you right!
Even while attending Graduate School on the campus (“On the Green”) at Gallaudet University, I too experienced people signing some level of English grammar with their ASL. As noted here, what is/was truly important is/was clear communication , not grammar (English vs. ASL syntax) so much. If you wanted to learn/study strict ASL grammar, Gallaudet’s Department of ASL could most certainly teach you. But around campus, in general, it was clear accessible communication that was most favored over grammatical syntax really.🤟🤟🤟
Hey Rogan, I know this is a pretty old video but I’ve been binging your channel, since it’s really good practice for my receptive skills. I’m hearing, and I grew up with a deaf family member. recently, I’ve taken it upon myself to become as fluent in ASL as possible but I was really intimidated of that “perfect ASL grammar” that you mentioned. It’s pretty relieving that “perfect grammar” is commonly excused, not only in conversation between a hearing and a deaf person, but with conversations with multiple deaf people!
This video is so helpful! As a linguistics major the difference in syntax between ASL & English is the first thing I noticed, and I was worried that if I used the wrong order I would be misunderstood/judged. I still plan to learn proper ASL grammar, but I won't be as self-conscious now if I slip up or revert to English-oriented communication styles.
I understand that it's annoying when teachers are really strict about ASL grammar, but I actually feel like it's important. To take a different language as an example, a Spanish teacher isn't going to accept work done in Spanglish--but why not, considering that Spanglish is what many students will end up encountering and even using themselves? The reason is that if a student is a native English speaker, then English is the default of their brain. If they are told that Spanglish is acceptable, then they are able to use English as a crutch and will not develop their language skills so completely. This is very different from a Spanglish speaker who knows both languages and is able to navigate the nuance and context that occurs around mixing. I think this is true with ASL as well. As a fluent signer you mentioned that you and your friends can mix and match signing styles seamlessly depending who you are with. For a hearing signer to do this, they need to have been told that they cannot fall back on English in the classroom, so that they can learn to use ASL properly. Once they have learned this, they can then come back and mix grammar in different situations. So as frustrating as it is, I think this inflexibility is fully understandable. However, I do think framing it as "you must learn the rules so that you can break them later" as opposed to "you MUST do proper grammar no matter WHAT" is a healthier and more encouraging perspective to have.
I’m coming from the perspective of a person with hearing loss who’s taken 2 years of college level ASL, and I prefer more ASL grammar structure. For my brain it’s easier to follow along with the sentence than if someone is signing based in English grammar, but I don’t care either way. If they’re a hearing student, I might suggest a more clear way of signing their sentence, but communicating with Deaf kiddos I can follow along even if they’re stronger in English. It really depends on the signer
This is so encouraging!
I’m STRUGGLING with sentence structure.. in ASL 2.
And have almost just throw in the towel!
But I KNOW my words.
I wanna keep on learning. I want to communicate. Even if it’s not in the correct order… until I get it!
So .. I keep on going!
Thank you!
Thank you Rogan. I LOVE to hear your opinions. I really enjoy this vlog.
I am learning ASL in my 50's because my hearing began to decline a few years ago. I feel pressure to have strong ASL. I appreciate your "permission" to focus on communication rather than grammar.
On an unrelated topic: I know you love to read. I am reading the "Game of Thrones" books and am enjoying them. What did you think of them? (I am assuming you read them because you have read 9 million books).
I actually haven't read the GoT books yet! I did start the first one, but it was briefly borrowed, so I only read around 45 pages. I might read them at some point, but they're not very high up on my list to read.
Rogan Shannon I read “Song of Achilles” last summer. Loved it. I look forward to your review. I also enjoyed “The End of Eddy”.
Thank you Rogan. I have been trying to learn ASL through FREE sites and Churches and Libraries through ZOOM that offer classes. Your comments at the end, ease my mind, I am also so fearful of offending a community in which I do not belong, but your statements about the importance of communication and attempting to learn. I am happy to know that many will excuse my lack of grammer and embrace the fact that I want to try to bridge a communication barrier.
I am a third semester ASL student and I have definitely been shy to attend the Deaf coffee nights my school hosts for fear of not knowing enough vocabulary and picking up other people's signs way too slowly/ having to ask them to repeat themselves an annoying amount of times. I also think way faster than I sign so getting myself to slow down and be clear is something I'm working on. Now that times are weird and social events are canceled its been hard to get much practice in but I just discovered your channel today and am excited to go through your videos!! You seem like such a reasonable, understanding guy and I appreciate the opinions you had to offer here. It really made me feel less nervous to get out there and use the skills I do have while not worrying myself so much on the technicalities and rather just go to hangout, chat, and make friends from a different culture than mine.
I used to feel guily because I didn't have "pure grammar" until I saw Deaf people, CODAs using PSE and said. "what's hapenning?" and then realized that unless it's for interpretation, there's no point in perfect grammar
I totally agree with what you’re saying!! Communication is the key!!!
Thank you for sharing your opinion and telling us about this. I always have a concern about pure ASL and must perfect ASL grammar like English grammar, which is also part of my weakness. I always make several mistakes that plummet my score grade in ASL, and I feel discouraged to practice because I feel overwhelmed by the pressures of grammar.
I really enjoyed watching you sign! I am planning on going to school next year for ASL interpretation, this is something I am very passionate about and I can't wait until I can help others.
I'm excited to see that you're interested in becoming an ASL interpreter! I do want to give you a tip though, try to avoid saying you're "helping" us. A lot of deaf people don't like that phrasing, because it makes interpreters sound like they're "saviors helping the poor deaf people." A better way to say it would be something like "I can't wait until I can work with deaf people." Just something to keep in mind as you pursue this exciting career!
@@RoganShannon13 What a gracious response! I have learned through my studies as an interpreter education student, that we are to come alongside the Deaf community and be their allies, not their helpers. I am so glad I stumbled upon your page in an effort to continue my knowledge in pursuit of my goal to become an interpreter for the Deaf. Thank you!
Thank you for making a video about this because it answers my question. I also want to say I like watching your videos because I can follow along with subtitles and lip reading while I am learning signs. So helpful!
Unanimously agree. Be yourself should be the creed.
If you are learning sign language in class, especially if you're training to be an interpreter, a lot of what comes after school is an "unschooling" of classroom tactics by real world experience. One will eventually find a signing style that is comfortable and grow from there. Fluency truly is dependent on a single thing: time vested towards interacting with deaf people as equals. With fluency comes the ability to modulate through a range of signing styles.
BTW I don't consider one's signing ability as a true representative of fluency, and choose instead to measure one's comprehension of the signer.
after watching this video I subscribed. It was nice to hear your opinion and made things for me. Keep making videos. I think your honest personality will spread more awareness towards the deaf community.
I remember way back that there were those (even this snobby girl from the neighboring college who worked with me) that made ASL like the ticket into the in-club. I was just learning, so she especially excluded me. I so wanted to at least sit and learn. But she made a point to tell me that I’d never use sign. Well… long story, but I almost actually did… anyway, I’d dable in it with my kids here and there and now they are teens and I have two little ones and I’m back at it. I’m worried about me and them being able to pick up ASL (signs they do fine) for if they want to go further or use it in their futures or be accepted some day by the deaf community. I remember there were those back then who were super sweet and accepting and communicated with me. But watching professors and this group on Fb for ASL now have me worried about actual ASL (instead of pigeon). 💜
Me as an interpreter I am taught in my classes ASL. Becusse my teacher my wants us to carry out deaf culture orginal form of language to the deaf community.
Omg lol this video makes me feel better. I’m learning on my own and doing pretty well I think and I get soooomee of the grammar but it is very difficult for an English hearing person to jump on in! But man it feels good and I love signing so thanks for saying this stuff. For us it truly starts with pse or see. It has to. Once we understand and know the signs, then we can move on to the grammar..I swear to me it’s like two different skills at this point. So thanks for being patient and diggin it 👍🏻
I am a new learner/re-learner of ASL in my 30s, and I just found your video. Thank you so much for making this video! I am a public librarian in a city with a major deaf university and a large deaf population, and I want to be able to communicate more effectively with my HoH patrons. But I am also afraid I will butcher the grammar under pressure! Thank you for your kind words!
This video was very informational and helpful as I've had a hard time learning the grammar of ASL (being scared of messing up), thank you ! :D
Really great video, very helpful. I've chatted with some very knowledgeable Deaf people and often they're willing to meet me where I'm at with my signing. I appreciate and respect everyone for any way they choose to communicate. It's impressed me how much I've seen Deaf people work with hearies baby sign to get to the point where we can understand eachother and have a conversation.
I just found your video, and I come from the same background as you where I learned SEE but then as I got older, started getting more and more involved with the Deaf community. I definitely noticed the same thing as you, it’s a varied spectrum as far as grammar goes. Right now with the help of a neighbor who’s learning ASL, I’m getting a chance to refresh my memory on how to sign certain words and also learn the grammar structure of ASL so that I can communicate better with someone who’s less English based. Unfortunately, my neighbor’s teacher is strict and saying her students need to do it exactly like her including the grammar and she’s stressing true ASL which is frustrating my neighbor. I just did my best to reassure them the best I could and explain a bit more about the Deaf culture. I will be sharing this video with them in hopes of it helping to explain better and not worry so much about the strictness of their teacher.
I agree with you for this.
I'm HOH and my friend isn't, and she took ASL in college, and at first she seemed to be really rigid with it, like book sense, and I've learned a lot of ASL but I'm more drawn to SEE, for me it's easier, I've showed her some signed music videos, but she's like well that's not ASL and I'm like, it's just a different version of it, but it isn't that much of an issue, we still manage to understand each other, so it's all cool :)
I'm curious, which music videos have you showed/looked at? I ask because a lot of signed music videos out there are very heavy on PSE, and not necessarily ASL, because for some reason, so many ASL students like to do covers when they're nowhere near ready or qualified to do that kind of thing. I'm not saying that they shouldn't do it, but they should stop calling them ASL covers, and call them what they are, practice videos or PSE covers.
@@RoganShannon13 there's a lady who is called ASL Anissa who does mainly ASL, and she even has the ASL words and English words on the video so people know what she's signing, there's also a young lady called The Daily Sign, she does a mix of ASL and PSE, and there's a guy who is Deafinitly Dope he does ASL. those are the main ones I watch. ya Anissa is really good and did take classes for ASL but I think the others are self taught, and the guy Deafinitely Dope is the only one that's actually Deaf, but I think it's cool hearing folks are learning. there are others but I think most of them learned from YT. :)
I know of the Daily Sign and Deafinitely Dope, but haven’t seen Anissa before! There are quite a few deaf people who do a good job, like Rosa Lee Timm. She’s one of my favorites when it comes to ASL music
Awesomeness. Amen. Thank you, Rogan, for making this wonderful video. I totally loved it. I loved that you said that what matters most is communicating with each other. I agree. If there's a bridge to cross between me and someone who is Deaf, and if I am sincerely trying to learn ASL and trying to communicate with them, it is very comforting and refreshing for me to be welcomed and kindly taught by that Deaf person as we communicate. When I attended a small group of Deaf, Hard-of-Hearing and Hearing people who met once a month (without any speaking allowed during that time), the Deaf people were so very friendly and patient with me. It made me want to learn more, and to come each month. They would gently correct me when I signed something incorrectly, and they would happily answer any of my questions. I think that time and many interactions with different people are the elements that help people improve. I absolutely noticed that not everyone signs the same thing for the same word, and not everyone signs "carefully" or "slowly". Everyone is different -- just like with "Hearing" people -- sometimes, people talk way too fast, or are not clear, and I have to ask them nicely, to please repeat what they just said. Thank you for helping support the idea that any communication is better than no communication. : ) Have a good day and keep up the great videos!
I just want to say: Thank you! I am learning ASL for two years now, which is my third language, and I am really concerned about my ASL grammar. Your words are encouraging. I will continue to do my best to improve my ASL grammar, but I will not feel embarrassed for what I know or don't. Thanks a lot! I just subscribed to your channel.
I think this video is amazing. I have taken 4 levels of ASL so far and the one thing I struggle with is the grammar in class. I've also had different professors expect different things, one will want perfect ASL and the other said exactly what you did, that it's the communication that matter, that the other person understands me, not that my grammar is perfect.
I grew up english speaking with two highly educated parents. None of us speak perfect English- and thats all without the barriers and obstacles that face your average deaf human. We all just keep trying. Trying to understand each other. Trying to communicate. Trying to learn and improve.
Edited to correct a typo because 😂
Love this❣
I'm so glad to head this because I've been worried that me not getting the grammer right was gonna make it hard. The person who's been practicing and teaching with me told me that they'd understand easier if I said things a certain other way. I obviously would try to learn the other way but it's comforting to know that in your opinion it won't matter as much in the grand scheme of things.
Omg yas. More insight into the ASL world
First- fantastic insight.
Second, it seems to me that the various ways people choose to sign ASL grammar is actually a strength, not a weakness.
We're always told that kids who learn a second language tend to have advantages over those who know only one, in no small part due to having to learn a totally different grammar structure. There's no reason it shouldn't be the case with ASL. That layer of flexibility just sounds so useful and cool.
I agree, it's certainly a strength, being able to communicate with people from all kinds of backgrounds!
Helpful to me, an asl learner!
Hello. Backstory I'm 37 and began signing at age 3 because i have auditory processing disorder. I have signed different ways my whole life. Helping out at church intrepting at a young age.This last year i decided to attend asl classes at college. I felt confident and sure that i had a good handle on asl. Just this last week the teacher who is a coda. Told me i have no conversational skills to talk with a deaf person and that my signs are wrong. I tell her there are other signs for words not just hers. I have deaf friends and they understand me. At this point after using sign my whole life i want to quit using sign. What should i do?
Wow that's very harsh. I'm shocked a teacher would have that kind of attitude, especially a CODA. You said that you have deaf friends who you sign with, why would you stop signing with them? If they understand you, you're good to go. Don't worry about that teacher, they're probably one of those minority people who are unwanted gatekeepers to the deaf community.
This definitely makes a lot of sense and I would agree that a lot of grammar rules are ignored in the informal everyday community. However, I think it's still beneficial for teachers to at least strongly encourage their students to avoid their english and focus on asl grammar for the first year or two of their studies. This is because it helps them to stop thinking about just associating keywords to english structure and to start understanding the smaller nuances and things that don't translate over to english well. This will help them when they start doing a lot of immersion closer to their third year because now they will have an idea of both languages and how they can fit together rather than being overwhelmed by some of the more complex asl signers in the community due to a lack of exposure to asl grammar. I'm curious if you have a strong opinion one way or the other to this idea, let me know :)
Oh I do agree that they need to teach proper grammar, and encourage them to use it in the classroom. I just don’t like it when teachers overemphasize the importance of having accurate grammar in everyday use, because that will push away some ASL students who might just be taking the class for a friend, family member, or just to have some knowledge to use if it comes up rather than aiming to become an interpreter.
I'm alberto trean.
Asl know how I'm daef
Love it 👍🤟
I'm HOH and often become mute due to autism. So this was helpful I'm trying to learn ASL grammar but sometimes it just feels better to sign in a different structure like in english. This was validating and useful to watch. Thank you.
Thank you for this! I've been learning on my own through videos and now have met a new friend (actually my friend's brother) of whom is deaf and I try to communicate as much as possible, (but he is very shy!) This topic has been thrown around often and I've noticed also there are some that really hammer on the ASL GRAMMAR and some seem to be using closer to SEE. I've seen this in both D/deaf/hh folks and interpretors alike, so it's quite confusing to me! I was trying to use ASL grammar only but I found it difficult to translate in my head when I'm still trying to learn more and more new vocab. Your answer has definitely eased my fearful or self conscious feelings. (A little bit!) At least I'm trying, right? 🤔😊
I think with any form of communication I believe it's important to learn the proper way first and then if choose to learn the "cool" way that should be an option...
Truthfully, no one speaks pure perfect English all the time either. We all give each other a break and we understand each other for the most part.
Rogan, I have deaf friends and they use SEE and PIDGON Sign. Actually in this area most of them do. I think when your not in an environment that expects you to use ASL it's okay to use what makes you comfortable. 😘
Ohh good because I am learning a lot of vocabulary, but struggle with asl word order. And whether or not to use simcom or not
Great video!! Good question. Although I haven’t had that many ASL classes, there is an emphasis on ASL grammar but I assume that’s because in a formal class (like a college), most people there are going into an interpreting career where they need to understand ASL grammar.
Question: do you think it’s generational to a degree? That with today’s technology and mainstreaming into hearing schools being more common, deaf people are more exposed to English grammar and so are more comfortable with it?
Oh absolutely, I think there is a lot of emphasis on ASL grammar because it's a formal setting, but at the same time, I feel like sometimes teachers will overemphasize the importance which can discourage some ASL students from continuing if they struggle.
Hmm... Technology and mainstreaming certainly does have some influence on English fluency, but it's very interesting because if you look at some older deaf people signing, you can see they sometimes have strong English influence, despite having gone to deaf schools, being around other deaf people all the time. I think it all depends on the area as well. For example, if you look at people who have gone to deaf schools on the east coast, they often seem to be more English-influenced compared to people who went to deaf schools on the west coast. So I guess it's a bit more of a wild card situation, you never know what a person's signing will be like.
Rogan Shannon Interesting. Thank you for the reply.
This reminds me of my spanish teachers (bilingual school 50% spanish native speakers) telling us not to use anglicisms and then I visit my family in latin am and they're all catchar eswitch cool
YES!!
Agreed
Being a speaker of several languages and a learner of a couple (trying to be a few) sign languages, I feel what you are saying. When it comes to learners of other languages, the process is not linear, nor is it clean. It is sloppy and imperfect, but the more positive interactions there are during the process, the more motivated the student is to continue down that path. Being a teacher of languages as well, this is a very clear and obvious thing to be wary of. Finding the right balance of encouragement for those trying and nudging for their improvement is not easy, but extremely valuable. Those of us who have suffered at the hands and tongues of others sadly have similar tendencies to ignore more effective and more compassionate methods of interacting and teaching. When we can learn that, just because others have treated us poorly or been maniacal is some way or another, it doesn't mean we have the right or a duty to do the same, and I believe through greater understanding and empathy, we can foster stronger, happier, and longer lasting bonds and intercultural relationships. Having got that all written... Do you know of any good resources for studying IS? I can't seem to find any good channels on TH-cam. Also, could you recommend some good resources for studying ASL?(including your channel of course :)
For International Sign, there really aren't any teaching resources because it changes based on region. I would suggest just watching videos in IS and learn from that. Good places to do that would be World Federation of the Deaf's videos, IS news channels like H3 World TV. And for some strange reason, there are a lot more deaf people making videos on Facebook than TH-cam, and this holds true for the international community, so try searching there. For ASL, a good place to start for basic resources would be Lifeprint.
@@RoganShannon13 Cool! Thank you so much for your response and the information. I have used ASL signs to help when teaching English to foreign students and I have frequently used Lifeprint as a resource. Though I haven't seen any studies about the use of a sign language to aid in the teaching of a foreign language, it seems to be helpful. I will look at some of those other resources you mentioned for IS. Thank you again!
I grew up with SEE sign too. My ASL professor in college, she is deaf and always telling us to grammar/asl syntax is important to learn. She tells us to throw out English and practice “true ASL” structure. I’m studying to become an interpreter, so I don’t know if it’s required to use proper ASL when interpreting or if it’s okay to mix ASL/SEE together in a professional environment.
That's the challenging part! As an interpreter, you have to adjust to match your client's preferences. If they prefer proper ASL, you do that. If they prefer a little more English-based, do that. However, when you interpret for more than one person, such as audience interpreting, typically you'd sign ASL but perhaps with English grammar. It all depends on the situation, which I know isn't helpful!
Rogan Shannon I guess professors want more ASL proper because they figure it’s the “default” for interpreting. Same with an English class and “proper grammar” even though in a social setting we use lazy speech. I love your videos btw! 🤟🏽
I am deaf but I don’t have a sense of belonging either in deaf or hearing communities because deaf people was like “why are you trying so hard to be hearing? Do you think you are smart?” I was left out by them often, and on other hand, hearing people ignore my existence. I have a question to ask, I’m determined to improve my English grammar and all, I want to be like you but I don’t know where to start. Any advice?
I really don't know what advice to give you, since I don't really know your situation. I'm sorry that you had to deal with that attitude from deaf people, but often those people are the minority, so I guess I would say keep trying. Find your people, whether they're deaf or hearing, or both! They're out there, I promise.
Yeah, I need to stop making excuses for my ASL when I meet a new deaf person. Like most of us, I did not take ASL classes. It would be great if deaf people could have access to structured ASL classes rather than being expected to pick up the language over time.
YES! I do think that every deaf person should have access to ASL classes at some point, and take it, learn the formal rules then just play with them. I haven't taken one myself, but I would love to some day.
Does this apply to ASL interpreters? Is an interpreter expected to sign as "correctly"/standardized as possible, or do they tend to have a lot of variation in the way they sign as well? (as long as they facilitate communication)
Hi there, I have a question.
How do I help a student with hearing impairment be better at grammar? It's just really stressful at times when I use PSE and they prefer deaf grammar.
I am a hearing teacher of the deaf, and also teach an ASL1 class at a local high school. I have an adult nephew who is profoundly deaf, and the fact that his family did not sign is why I learned initially. I find that my deaf and hard of hearing students struggle with expectations in the areas of writing especially, but also in those of reading, vocabulary, and spelling. 95% of those students have non-signing families; literally no one in their families signs. Consequently, they arrive in school with very limited vocabulary, and it is a monumental struggle to catch them up. Their written work reflects this as do their comprehension and spelling grades. It is also a struggle for them to follow a skilled interpreter as they do not have the vocabulary necessary. They primarily use signed English and you are right; it is a result of early education and teachers who sign in English. What are some insights you can share with me?
Students arriving at school with a severe language delay is unfortunately all too common. Has the school considered bringing in deaf interpreters to work with the students who are language delayed? That might help them with comprehension of the hearing interpreter.
Hello! I have a couple of questions. What's the difference between PSE and ASL? Are there other way to sign, I saw the phrase "English-y sign" and got a bit confused. Which one is the best to learn? Do you have any tips for a new beginner? Thank you so much in advance for your help! So sorry for all these questions.
Really, PSE and ASL are the same thing - just that PSE is generally ASL signs put in an English grammar order. English-y sign, I suspect they meant that the sign was very influenced by English and isn’t really an ASL sign.
@@RoganShannon13 Thank you so much for responding! I think I get it now.
I'm curious! How difficult do you find it to communicate with, for example, those who use BSL?
Well, I learned Auslan which is far more similar to BSL than ASL is, so not that difficult! :P But i get what you're trying to ask. Honestly, it's not really that difficult. There are often commonalities in sign language for concrete things like chair, table, so those are easy. Abstract concepts can be more challenging, but I've never really struggled that hard to communicate with deaf people from other countries. I think it's because we all have that shared experience of figuring out ways around communication barriers, so it makes it that much easier to work together and figure things out. But of course, it depends on each person. I have a natural inclination and interest in languages, so I usually easily pick up things, while others may struggle with using International Sign (which has a lot of parallels with ASL).
@@RoganShannon13 This is great, thank you!
I'm only just beginning in my journey of learning ASL, but I ultimately want to travel and work internationally. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and experiences, it's super helpful!
Hello. Not sure if you’re going to get this. Why do the deaf has a different structure in ASL if they live in an English speaking and reading and writing world? It’s like they have to learn two languages just to exist and then those of us who are hearing have a harder time trying to reprogram our brains because we hear English in our heads when we sign. It’s frustrating me because in the group I’m in for learning sign someone told me I should have written a transcript and that she understood some but some was confusing. It’s because they want us speaking in asl but I used to live and work in a deaf school where we had to commit to total communication which meant speaking and signing. Signs could be English but mostly asl signs. I never was fluent then but now te-learning it’s amazing how many signs I know. It’s just harder for me to read the signs than to sign. Anyway. I just don’t know why sign has to have its own grammar when this country is based on English. It’s just so hard to understand why and to reprogram the mind.
Thank you for offering your own opinion. I lost my hearing 2 years ago and have been taking ASL classes at the community level for 6 months. Most important to me...Between signing and lip reading I actually understood most of your video without the subtitles. It's a good moment for me, thank you!!! Because I am older(56) I struggle just to remember the signs and even more with ASL grammar. I take class once a week and then participate in a Meetup group that meets weekly to practice and socialize. Practice practice practice...the thing that excites me about the group we created is that we have deaf people who participate and help in our journey! Thanks again for supporting us who are learning and struggling to do it without shame. =)
No there is a standard language In American. It's called ASL. It's the only language taught because it's the only language. See and PSE are not languages. They are forms of oppression and audism. English washing ASL. This is why it's so important that asl is accessible and free. This is why we need to push ASL being required to be taught to deaf children. When deaf people who know ASL see this, it doesn't make alot of sense. So lets please try to learn grammer. You wouldnt learn Spanish and forge the Grammer because you can't do it or deaf people call you out. It's lazy. Language is language. It has structure and context. Signs have same sign but context is extremely important. People won't understand what you're saying and hes not stating this. Stop spreading support for audism.