Making waves: The debate over trans athletes
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 มี.ค. 2022
- University of Pennsylvania swimmer Lia Thomas, a transgender woman, has smashed Ivy League records in the pool since switching from the men's team to the women's. Her winning streak has reignited a fierce debate: do trans women have an unfair biological advantage in sports? And are competitive fairness and trans inclusivity mutually exclusive? With 22 states recently introducing bills that would ban trans women and girls from sports, correspondent Lee Cowan talks to advocates and experts on both sides of this contentious issue.
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I’m gay male and support everyone 100%. That being said, I honestly don’t think it’s fair for trans females to participate in female sports. There is an absolute advantage…it’s not about being “inclusive” it’s about fairness. I’m as liberal as they come and for me to think something is absurd…it’s probably absurd.
Same I'm bisexual and have been called anti-lgbt and transphobic for not supporting transpeople in sports. Apparently I hate myself being a bisexual dude bc I don't agree with this lmfao
@@mikekane2492 I agree. Sadly I think that these athletes want to compete they will have to either compete as males or a whole new category will need to be created.
Also it’s not the same as trans men. Trans men are already the underdog biologically of course they are not going to receive backlash for being a trans athlete it’s not the same.
I don’t see trans woman in gymnastics because their biology doesn’t favor extreme flexibility.
Trans female?
No
Males cannot trans to females
Your party is so far from JFK’s Democratic Party might be time to re-evaluate your values
My fellow Human being thank you! For your comment from your world, everyone live as you wish!!But, not if you have to take others rughts to do so!! Maybe make transgender competition. Be blessed My fellow Human!
This madness will eventually come to an end. In the future people will look back on us and laugh at our stupidity.
But the future will likely have trans folks , just like today's society does. The same issues might still be debated.
Or the whole world will just be more confuse. Hahah
Well, that might not happen since a lot of stupid people right now are procreating more than the smart people.
@@jungersrules it's pretty far-fetched to suggest that at some point the entire world will be below average in smartness.
@@jungersrules That's ok because the smart people, no matter how few, will always come out on top in the end. You are right though. Problem with being smart is only having as many children as you can take care of responsibly lol
He ranked 462 as a man and number 1 as woman. We can all believe what we want in our minds but the body is what it is.
what happens when you're born with both genitalia, or an intersex person?
@@minigiant8998 Why do you wanna talk about that? Go ask a scientists or doctor. This is a specific case we’re commenting on
@@minigiant8998 this is completely irrelevant and very ignorant of you to bring up. People who are born intersex are not transgender. You’re a disgusting and foolish person.
@@bbygrlpt2 sorry i didnt wanna facts to get in the way of ur agenda.
That’s a lie, spread by anti-inclusion bigots. Here’s the truth, from the trailblazing swimmer interviewed by CBS, Schuyler Bailar: There have been many claims that Lia was “never in the category of standout athlete” before she transitioned. Many people are using this as “proof” that Lia maintains some sort of biological advantage over cis women athletes, asserting that because she was not a standout athlete in the men’s category, she has come out of nowhere to be a standout athlete in the women’s category. A few powerful, well-known people (beginning with Nancy Hogshead Makar) have contrasted a supposed ranking of 462nd in the 200 freestyle from competing on the men’s team with a 1st-place ranking on the women’s team. They are using this as “evidence” that Lia was not a standout athlete before and now is.
There are a few things wrong with this: First, and most simply, neither I nor my teammates could find this 462nd ranking anywhere, so I’m not sure where it is from. Second, even if it is a real ranking, it is could only be based on a practice time at an in-season dual meet because Lia never rested for the 200 free before transition. For any non-athletes or non-swimmers: this means that the 462nd ranking swim was a throw-away practice time that Nancy is comparing to a rested, suited in-season invite. A meet she prepared to do her best at. Not a practice meet.
Lastly, and most importantly: saying Lia was not a standout athlete prior is an outright lie intended to deceive you. Lia was absolutely a standout athlete when she was competing on the men’s team before she transitioned. Her highest ranking before transitioning was 11th. In the entire country. It is far from abnormal or unlikely for an athlete to go from being ranked 11th to 1st in the span of a few years.
Here is proof:
Lia was ranked 12th in the 1000-yd Freestyle in 2018 and 12th in the same event in 2019. She was also ranked 38th in the 1650-yd Freestyle in 2019. Lia was absolutely a standout athlete prior to transitioning.
More: pinkmantaray.com/LIA
7:33, it's not about it being a marginalized person. I work with DNA. If you have a Y chromosome, you're going to have more muscle mass, stronger bones, and larger lungs than if you didn't. In a biological context, the 'marginalized' group in all physically based sports is half the population. Guess which half. The context matters a lot. It's not trans vs. cis, it's Y vs. X, the genes don't lie, and they don't change, no matter how you feel, present, or hormone regulate. Everyone is whoever they are, but don't confuse biology with sociology.
I totally agree about genes not changing and that is what society tends to overlook. A good apology is...If you take an apple peel it one one side, carve and image on the other, then cut it in half to the core, what do get? Tho cre with seeds that are apple seeds, not oranges...it's still an apple regardless of what you do to the peel or apple; you can't change the core (chromosomes).
The best thing I've ever heard about sports with men vs women is if men and women were equal in sports there wouldn't be men and women sports it would just be called sports.
You go from being no one in the rankings as a man, to breaking records and ranked number 1 as a woman. C'mon. And how can you even feel good about those wins?
The transgender is willing to take it in the keister - literally. Do you think shame enters that equation? No. It doesn't.
One word: Delusional.
He's a greedy selfish coward and he knows the radical leftwing lunatics who are supporting him will be able to shut down all criticism from women and girls and feminists. MR. Will Thomas belongs in prison for theft he's stealing women's medals but the women are too cowardly too afraid to put a stop to this.
This issue is much larger than athletics, transgender, etc. It's about rules, laws and definitions. What we have now are people imposing their subjective personal thoughts and beliefs onto others by changing definitions or words (those of which originated in objective reality) to fit their own narrative. If we accept this as a society, we are essentially a lawless society. Why? Because laws and rules are nothing but words and mutually agreed upon definitions of those words. Don't believe me? I challenge anyone to name a single law or rule that I cannot circumvent PROVIDED you allow me to change the definitions of the words written in the law based on my "feelings". Just name one.
The only reason Lia and these other competitors are even allowed to compete in women's sports to begin with is if you buy into the definition of a female as being a fluid definition that can mean different things to different people. As opposed to a female human having XX chromosomes; as well as the sex that can generally bear eggs and can be fertilized (
This is so well written!!! You made great points!
What you left out is, by Lia competing, he took away a spot from a biological woman who has trained her entire life.
women pushed trans rights harder than any non-trans group, you made your bed, stop complaining
And lia hasn't?
Let me ask this. If trans women are at an advantage why did the olympic trans weight lifter lose. She didn't even make it 10th place. Why is that
@@drummerboy9000100 Lia is a biological *MAN* he can compete in the men's division. Its not just a body and muscles, he has a penis. So tomorrow, he can easily say "I'm a man" again.
@@katel3962 thats not how it works
Does her body looks like a woman’s athlete body?
Her body is definitely grown up as a man! And you can clearly see it.
Then just call him HE.
It's this catering and pandering that has led us to this place. They're a super small minority, no need to normalise them.
His^
HIS and HE
Saying "Lia" Thomas is a "phenom" is an absolute joke. It's like saying an average college basketball player dunking on middle school kids is a "phenom".
I'm gay and have absolutely _no_ animosity or hatred towards the trans community -- but I, and many LGBTQ (yes, even trans) colleagues, agree that it is unfair for a transgender woman (born male) to compete in women's athletics. It's just not right. It's no different than athletes who are doping and using massive amounts of performance enhancement treatments. It's _cheating_ -- plain and simple
That’s literal terf boilerplate but please go on and add the racist second half to this cut and paste trolling
How about what Maria Mutola, Caster Semenya, Margaret Wambui and other so called "intersex" women --- where do we place a bar or a stop to bio-diversity or even human evolution in sports?
This manufactured and political controversies always often hurt someone, and the MOST of those innocents that suffer always happen to be African, Black or Brown athletes....
@@RebeccaRuhlman oh another darn millennial ally who can't distinguish facts from fictions. Terf this terf that. You learn it well from the right: every time there's a debate when they bring out valid points, you younguns throw out slurs in order to stop the conversation right?
Remember the time when the right throws out the antifas slur to stop the conversation about fascism? Man, you radical Neznaika children learn it well
@@D-E-S_8559 what a load of crap 😂😂😂😂😂
No trans male has ever been able to top men's sports. It only works the other way around. That's a fact for you.
Jesus, your trolling is so bad. You have to reach from trans to race?? Omg with all that reaching, perhaps you should join the women's swimming team.
@@D-E-S_8559 bio-diversity... Sure, let's join hands and let the Olympians compete with the Paralympians. Don't even dare bring biology over here. Don't even dare, if you know what I do for a living, you'd think twice to throw science at me.
The situation of Lucas is entirely different. Lucas does not enjoy any innate advantages. If anything, he's at a disadvantage. So of course it's easier for people to accept his participation in his sport. What people object to regarding Lia isn't some vague manifestation of "transphobia". It is the advantage she has, which many view as unfair. But it shouldn't be necessary to ban any person who has an unfair advantage. That person should just have the decency to withdraw and not exploit the advantage he or she has.
Lia Thomas competing is the equivalent to an athlete taking illegal steroids it is still an unfair advantage...if she hadn't gone through puberty we wouldn't be having this discussion...a trans man will build muscle mass after starting estrogen blockers and testosterone while working out
They need to be banned because they take advantage and women are at risk.
What debate? Everyone knows why this is wrong!
the 'debate' is centered on the fact that in some cases trans athletes are allowed to compete against biological females. The 'debate' is whether or not this is morally OK.
Let me ask this. If trans women are at an advantage why did the olympic trans weight lifter lose. She didn't even make it 10th place. Why is that
@@drummerboy9000100 1 specific case vs many
@@drummerboy9000100 Trans women has advanage, she already did much better before she did the transition in men sport
@@mankun31 no not even close take the L bozo
I have nothing at all against transgender people or anyone else for that matter but it's obvious to me that an unfair advantage is still an unfair advantage.
Science doesn’t agree with you.
@@DawnStaceyEnnis haha Who's science?
@@DawnStaceyEnnis what science are you referring to?
You have nothing against trans people except: proceeds to list something you have against trans people. You are being transphobic. Just own it dude. Speak from your chest next time. That way it's easier for people to tune you out.
@Red Patriot That's cause it is.
Can ex-adults who define themselves as children now compete in children's competitions?
What
@TB One You are absolutely vile.
@TB One we all know that happens on the dl. making it legal will only lift the cloak and youll see more of the people you know already engaged in such activity. you just choose to be blind because its "against the law".
There's no debate, over 90% of people consensusly realize that this is bogus and need to be stopped.
Absolutely.
What does this even mean? Did you re-read it before hitting send?
@@tjwash5118 Yes. He read it. He means 99% of society isn't going to redefine themselves to make 1% feel better about themselves. Now get some therapy and move on.
Yeah but the 10% are morons. You can read some of them in the comments.
We're not talking about "transgender athletes in sport", we're talking about men competing in womens sport. An adult male 🙄 can't simply lower his testosterone and magically become a woman. And as a woman I find it offensive that anyone thinks he can. Women are not defined by our testosterone levels, and if you try to put the shoe on the other foot it'll just fall off. Meaning a woman can't pump her testosterone up to a mans levels and walk away with a first place (or even 3rd place) medal. These men are free to continue competing in men's events, because by definition they are still men no matter how long their hair is or how many chemicals they pump themselves full of.
Let me ask this. If trans women are at an advantage why did the olympic trans weight lifter lose. She didn't even make it 10th place. Why is that
@@drummerboy9000100 Because you could be trans and still not be as good.
@@jimmyhyun8546 so trans people should compete
I really don't care why. He should never have been there in the first place. He was twice as old as any other weightlifter, male or female, and several women lost their chance to compete at the Olympics altogether so a fat old man could take their spot. Why not ask yourself how a Middle aged, out of shape man even made it Olympics in the first place?
@@drummerboy9000100 Yes against other trans people.
They should compete with only others who take the same medications and surgeries. This is unfair to women who work and struggle with a woman's body to compete. The lgbtq community should be first to understand this.
They don’t because they’re not real woman. They don’t have periods and cramps and minstrel cycles to go through what’s a woman goes through. And because you feel like or think like a woman is absurd to think you can be in the same field as a woman imo
How about they just have a Trans competition? SMH imagine women swimming against Micheal phelps, LeBron in the WNBA, Dereck Jeter playing soft ball, Mike Tyson fighting against a women in boxing. Do what you want with your life its YOUR LIFE but at a point this has to stop
All good examples.
Well said Jacob! 👍
Not a bad idea.
How about what Maria Mutola, Caster Semenya, Margaret Wambui and other so called "intersex" women have to go through, just to compete --- where do we place a bar or a stop to bio-diversity or even human evolution in sports?
This manufactured and political controversies always often hurt someone, and the MOST of those innocents that suffer always happen to be African, Black or Brown athletes....
a trans man just won his debut pro boxing match
The rules aren't telling trans athletes they don't belong, they're only telling them they don;' belong in the women's category, which they don't. A solution must be found where they can compete but not where they compete against women who they clearly many times have an unfair advantage due to their bodies being 'supped up' due to their testosterone surge during puberty. It's just not fair, they know it, and it is clear as day for all to see.
Exactly. Those pesky details. Unless they also want to suggest that it's okay for all female athletes to take steroids- starting at birth. That's about the only way they could argue that it's "fair". That's the exact reason performance enhancing drugs aren't allowed- because it isn't fair. But it's supposed to be "okay" in this situation?
You are either XX or XY. It does not matter what pronoun you want to be called.
As said "Identity may be important but biology is a fact." Truth.
It really is that simple ..
Xxy also exists
Manhood and Womanhood are not determined by a socially constructed sense of identity. A man and a woman are males and females.
I mean this feels like a very selfish argument coming from the Trans activists. They keep trying to push the idea that they just want to be them and people need to accept them while pushing their way into an already marginalized group (in this case women sports) and ignoring women concerns. I hear the Trans athletes talking and all they do is dodge specific questions and talk about what they want. Women have lost scholarships because of this. It's not about a tiny minority it should be about whats best for everyone involved. I support cis-women in this issue. We are literally still fighting to be paid and treated as well as our male athlete counterparts now we have to defend ourselves against bioloigallcy advantaged males in in our spaces or we are considered transphobe. I honestly think most Trans ppl don't even agree with these ppl and understand how women feel.
You want to be treated as males and asking for equality, but don’t think male borns should be equals with you when your in disadvantage ?!
You will always be in disadvantage biologically !!!
Men are not equal for the women’s sake.
See what the simplest thing can do?!
Do you think we should mix prisons to make equality.
Explain to me how you want to be equal with men when you yourself don’t expect it?!
@@majidabdullah932 Go to school. You obviously need to since you don’t understand what we are talking about.
@@quincyjones5676
Just shut up and accept you were being an idiot
Majid is correct that's why.
@@emmacassidy8482
Thanks emma.
Btw i am against equality.
I am supporting women to have better rights than men.
but logically.
You're 100% entitled to change your gender, but you're 100% not entitled to attend any sport after that. If men can be banned for life after one cycle of steroids then that should say everything.
One wonders if there shouldn’t be a separate category, male, female and trans.
They don't want to be thought of as trans, just either men or women, hence the invasion into women sport. Totally egotistical and inconsideration. It's all about me me me, but it's not surprising in this me first world.
With less than 1% of athletes being trans, they would have no one to compete with.
@@margarita6700 They can make all their tournaments national, to boost the number of people competing. It's not on women's shoulders to give away their victories and medals to make trans women feel better.
@aleagria03 compete at what they were biology born at it's that simple
There should be
There's nothing Phenomenal about someone who went through puberty as a male, which means Lia has denser muscles, meaning far more endurance, and less fatigue than any of Lia's competitors, a larger heart and lung capacity to better oxygenate the blood, meaning more energy. This is why there has never been a Biological Female Athlete to ever beat a Biological Male Athlete in a Marathon, in Track & Field... or in any sport of endurance. Why aren't there any Trans-Male Athletes breaking NCAA records in Men's sports?
And they’re not heroes either
Exactly. You'll never see a woman transition to a male and dominate that sport. It doesn't happen because we all know men are stronger.
Exactly - it should be a no brainer!
So the compromise would be to create a 3rd gender class for all sports?
@@RavenBlaze You tell me??
you cannot deny your genetics, I'm sorry. That's like me saying that I want to compete in the 150 pound fighter category when I'm 270 pounds, but I identify as a 150 pound person. And then just so I feel "included" everyone should ignore my genetics and allow me to pulverize the competition? Absolutely ridiculous. We've all gone nuts.
Perfect analogy!
No, you're right on.
Amen!
I swear Women's sports were created for Woman yet men still won't let us have it!!!
@@AnnaBella510 Quit voting for the idiots that put people in power doing this crap.
The only thing that can solve the “problem” is a trans league. Give them “A League of their own.”
It's seriously that simple. Problem solved.
But that will never happen because they are convinced they are actually the sex they claim to be and physical advantages don't exist between males and females.
They will feel misstreated because they identify as women and not trans. In their eyes they are women and not male . Kinda sad.
@@sirrz1267 f their feelings
People who un naturally modify their bodies should not be allowed to complete in sports. Keep the argument simple.
Yep, good point.
Who should stop them?
Professional athletes spend their entire lives at risk of mental, physical, social, and emotional turmoil perfecting their craft...
In the case of trans women competing against biological women it's just straight up unfair. That's really all there is to it. It's not fair to these professional women athletes.
There should be no argument here. It is common sense.
Common sense doesn't resonate with mad people!
Sampletext, couldn't agree more.
How about what Maria Mutola, Caster Semenya, Margaret Wambui and other so called "intersex" women have to go through, just to compete --- where do we place a bar or a stop to bio-diversity or even human evolution in sports?
This manufactured and political controversies always often hurt someone, and the MOST of those innocents that suffer always happen to be African, Black or Brown athletes....
@@D-E-S_8559 Speaking of a "manufactured controversy", nothing screams that louder than claiming you're a gender you aren't.
And women are much harder on themselves when they lose than men are. Doing this to them is absolutely cruel and selfish. What happened to people caring about REAL women's rights?
No brainer. From an athletic standpoint a former male, now competing as a female isn’t fair or equitable. IMO
I feel that if male trans athletes continue to compete against traditional women that less women will compete in the Olympics and other athletic competitions. Being inclusive with male trans athletes may disenfranchise a lot of women.
"Men are far ahead of what women can do." This declaration says it all.
sorry liz , deal with it. The male body is different than a womans. If your offended, maybe its on you??
Physically yes men are stronger. But that doesn’t mean women should be reduced. How about both of shut up, seriously.
@@kittystanby4686 The quote is from the man in the video, not from me.
If there was a cis woman who was so good she matched performance with men (even if lower end of perf), I'd have no problem with her competing against/with men. what's happening is the inverse of that. Fairness is the very center of competition, and without it there is no sport. Not to mention, giving certain people awards when they have drugs in their system is patently ridiculous. There's no way you can regulate that precisely. And that is simply not fair to those who do not have drugs in their system.
I know there are a lot of people on the left, myself included, who are not comfortable with this situation. In sport, fairness of competition comes before gender equality.
Im also a Dem as most ppl I know and we all agree this is not fair at all.
You obviously know nothing about “fairness” or sports. Do you think swimmers competing with Michael Phelps thought they had a fair chance of beating him? Should Elena Della Donne be banned from the WNBA because she’s super tall? Of course not. “Fairness” and “level playing field” is BS. The rules say Lia Thomas competed fairly.
@@DawnStaceyEnnis Of course Lia Thomas has an unfair advantage, regardless of what "the rules" say. Unlike her competitors, Lia Thomas through puberty as a male and came out with man hands, feet and lungs. In a pool where you have to push yourself through water while holding your breath at times, yes, those are advantages.
You lost me at “cis.”
@@DawnStaceyEnnis So why do we even have separate sports for women and men? Let them all compete together. You mention outliers that give them a SLIGHT advantage and try to apply it to the mass. According to you, being born with great genetics for a sport is not the person's fault so let all men and women compete against each other. That will be "fair". Then we see how your precious Lia will do.
This makes me sad and sick beyond measure. Both my daughter and son were elite collegiate athletes, and my son a national. It would break my heart to have all the hard work and injuries my daughter suffered to become a champion would have meant nothing if men who have 20 % stronger, lung size, bone strength, ligament and muscle capacity. All that doesn’t disappoint when transitioning. If the percentage of transioned people increases enough, there will no longer be women champions.
I agree 120% … It is just not the same.
agreed...the differences between male and female anatomy surpass what most people would think makes a person a woman or a man...yes, we can talk about genitalia all day, it's a big part of it, but there are also other variations among both genders aswell..the actual anatomy and bone structure of a biological male vs female is entirely different from head to toe...this is why MTF transgenders tend to still keep their natural "masculine" look even after years of estrogen therapy since no chemical alone can alter bone around the brow ridges, high cheek bones, and boxy chins..men also have wider and more straight across shoulders along with longer arms and more muscle mass than a woman would ever possess naturally....in my opinion, a man will never be a woman, and a woman will never be a man...of course, they can mutilate their bodies to look like whatever they please and spend the $$$$$$$$$$ to do so, but the chromosomes never lie, and a legit male will never be able to give birth no matter how many treatments they receive.,,people are trying too hard to be something they're not or never will be since looking like a perceivable male or female does not actually make you biologically or genetically that gender since it goes much more skin deep than just outward physical appearance..
A good portion of this story involved talking with a trans male swimmer who is not gaining an advantage by becoming a male. Also, a trans female scientist was interviewed who is doing research on the subject who seemed to be way too biased on this topic to conduct a fair analysis. One only needs to look at the picture that was shown when Lia won a recent swimming event. The second and third place swimmers looked like children compared to her size. To make matters worse, some of her team members have commented that Lia still has all of her male body parts yet she is permitted to use the female locker room which makes many of her teammates uncomfortable. The doctor who talked about the physical advantages that Lia gained by transitioning to a female several years after puberty made the most sense. She has clearly gained an advantage just by being born a male and practicing her swimming skills as a male before transitioning in the middle of her college years which is unfair to the women she is competing with.
Don't expect everyone to follow along with your decision to change your gender.
"Science" done in universities is mostly political agenda driven bs.
The trans female scientist, Joanna Harper, is a co-author on a scientific paper that researched testosterone reduction treatment. The conclusion is that even after 3 years of treatment levels remain above that of females on average and therefore keep an advantage. While Joanna aims for trans inclusion in sports, it's fair to say that particular paper doesn't indicate bias. Maybe ironically the scientific data shows the reality of the opposite that Joanna tries to prove though.
It’s hard to think about how much practice, pains, and even injuries those women must go through to compete in a meet they know they you are going to lose in because of someone that clearly has a large advantage
There is a very easy answer.
NO
See, that was easy.
They can compete in the gender of birth.
Amen. NO!
Whenever there is an issue for other groups they love to add Black people to the conversation. Jewish people have also overcome adversity but you will never hear anyone compare their struggle to another.
Fight your own fight we have carried enough groups on our backs and never receive the same support.
Exactly. LGBTQXYZ has nothing to do with skin color.
Yes so true. To their inner racist minds, we're no different to them than these weirdos.
Leave Black peoples out of this foolishness. So insulting but not too surprising.
Exactly, Most Black ppl don't even accept this crap but they always invoke us for sympathy. I'm glad Dave Chappelle touched on this in his comedy special.
-biodiversity exists everywhere? Emm so does biodiversity between men and women - shouldn’t we all compete together?
How about another category for competition.
The problem is that there are not many transgender male to female athletes, so they cannot form their own teams or have more than one or two others to compete against at any event. Further compounding that, they cannot compete against men anymore if they are taking hormone therapy, and they still have unfair advantages competing against women. This just comes down to having to tell them, well hard luck there but nothing to be done about it, put your efforts into something other than athletics. Many thousands of athletes have to stop competing or never get to because of injuries or poverty or lots of other things, it is not like there is some God given right to compete. I could have likely been a very good cyclist, but never could afford a bike costing more than $200 until I was 28, and I literally soloed up to a pro pack from five minutes behind in a sanctioned race on a $150 twelve speed Motobecane, wearing my cut off jean shorts, so I am not lying. Too bad so sad for me and thousands of others, and for the transgender male to female if we do this right.
3:45 Harper is inept. OF COURSE Lia’s build matters. Have you ever played a sport? 3:14 Look at that comparison of wing span. If those 2 women played volleyball, who has the advantage for spiking the ball? Basketball? NOW, if Lia wanted to become a gymnast with her frame…good luck! She would be at a disadvantage if she wanted to be a gymnast, a jockey, a diver, etc. Look at body frames, muscle mass, aerobic/anaerobic, etc. Study that in athletes. Lia is close to beating a record set by a biological female. 7:10 Really??? Are you winning the butterfly or are you a diver? Also, 7:30. Really???? This is about wing span. I want Lia to become a gymnast or a jockey and win. I do like how Martina N. compared Lia’s record prior to her transition to her record now.
Wing span?
Does he think he is a bird now?
The proper term is ARM SPAN.
@@DeAnnaParisRN he very well could be identifying as a bird.
Quack🦆
My heart goes out to these athletes, as I can't begin to imagine the plethora of emotions they must endure & reconcile, not feeling comfortable in their own skin. That being said, if this is allowed to continue, it will certainly destroy the dreams & aspirations of millions of biological women athletes across the globe, and in the end, women's sports. Promoting an environment of inclusion is imperative, but the playing field must be level as well, to ensure the integrity of the sport. I don't know the answer, but perhaps looking forward, separate competitive categories can be established to allow everyone to compete, while maintaining the integrity and preservation of women's sports.
Wait till Non-Binary Athletes compete... "Mens and Womens" sports are on their way out.
What?! Less than 1% of athletes are transgender! That's hardly an army that's going to destroy anything.
@@margarita6700 serena and venus williams played against the #200 ranked man in the world. He played 18 rounds of golf beforehand and drank beer in between sets. He also played them back to back. He didnt lose a single set. Now just imagine if Djokovic took hormone suppression for 1 year and joined the womens league.... be honest with yourself it would destroy womens tennis overnight
Let me ask this. If trans women are at an advantage why did the olympic trans weight lifter lose. She didn't even make it 10th place. Why is that
@@drummerboy9000100 Laurel Hubbard had an injury prior to competing. Also, one person doesn’t change the overall reality. Every year high school boys outdo the all time Women’s Olympic records. Boys, not men, beat the best women in the world.
Even ranked 462 among men, Lia took records.
Yes, the best women in the country could maybe beat the males ranking several hundred places down among men. But what if the man ranking at 300th place transitions? That person could push titles beyond what bio women are capable of.
Diving v swimming have far different physical requirements. I grew up as a competitive swimmer & it's obvious that people who have gone through male puberty have an advantage in particular sports. Distance running is much closer between male & female. Weight lifting, swimming, tennis, & MMA are examples of extreme differences due to sexually dimorphic biological development. I can't honestly support trans women who have gone through male puberty in certain sports.
They are also trying to ban adolescent figure skaters from competition, simply because Russian female teens have won by easily performing perfect triple twist moves to much against their more mature female competitors---where do we stop?
@@D-E-S_8559 , I think there is something to be considered here. It is fascinating that only adolescents can perform these consistent triples, now quads. Maybe let it continue with just adolescents & it becomes more of a sport like gymnastics where your acrobatic moves are not as competitive as an adult. This is an example of a biological process that happens without medical or surgical intervention, & all adolescent girls with equal access to training & facilities have the opportunities to learn these techniques regardless of their country or race, & all of them will grow out of these abilities. Artistry is another subject, & it's always made me ponder how a dance form on ice made it into the Olympics. I still love to watch it.
In regards to male v female, elite level females will never be able to match elite level males, ever, in particular sports. YT does not allow links, so if you'd like to see some science, do a search for "Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage" by Hilton & Lundberg.
@@eqmuse Thank you for your views, opinions and measured response. I myself struggle around this very same controversy, even when I filter-out politics and my political views and popular arguments. I am a father, I am a brother and a caring member of a diverse group of persons and personalities with varied and divergent needs and wants. I to struggle between what is important in sports---is it participation, winning or losing? In school sports, I always find myself backing the idea of universal participation, and often when challenged about the idea of scouting, scholarships and opportunities, then I tend to digress to performance data, and the particular or peculiar lawful requirements of each recruiting entity---I have always instilled as it was instilled in me, to my daughters that "life is not exacting, neither is it fair", unfortunately, as I have come to realize, this reality is NOT common sense to many more opposed to transgender participation in school level sports...
I am not inimical or opposed to counter views, on what public schooling needs to promote as participatory sporting values, however, I am absolutely perturbed and ashamed by the growing list of Red State Laws that seek to eradicate intersex or trans students from participating in basic sports---I chose to premise the intent of those awful laws on the basis of participation, because who wins or loses, is not and can never be known in a fair competition...
I will watch your suggested material -- equally, will you watch and learn about other Intersex athletes such Maria Mutola, Caster Semenya and Margaret Wambui amongst many others that have to be subjected to so much undeserving attention and ridicule of their own natural and human biological realities...
Have we as humans stopped evolving, have our genotype and karyotype stopped evolving, have we finally reached the nadir of our human perfections?
I can't believe this is even a debate, humans are smart so this whole debate is just pandering to the woke culture for the sake of not offending people. Men to woman trans athletes will be able to break records without much sweat if they put in the same effort as real women while women to man trans athletes have 0 chance whatsoever to dominate men in the sports field if they put in the same effort
I don’t agree with your ideas about wokeness etc but I do agree it’s not fair.
And if one side is 'pandering' to a certain way of thinking, the debate itself is inevitable. The real issue is what will happen down the line - will trans folks be allowed to complete as their 'chosen' gender or their biological one?
@@wylier Well eventually people will have to come to their senses and this craziness will have to stop but you know which sport category would be really good for trans people, that is a trans category where both male to female and female to male trans athletes would be able to compete against each other, I think this would actually level out the playing field a little bit still I expect male to female trans athletes would dominate no problem but still it would be interesting to see. Under no chance however should male to female athletes take away opportunities and titles from real women that worked harder but just couldn't fight biology
This is ridiculous. Let me preface my thoughts by saying that i believe people can live their lives the way they choose as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. If a man wants to say he's a woman and competes with real women, there's something seriously wrong with that! They have an advantage like none other. You see it every time they blow the doors off of women. You can even the playing field by letting all of the guys that say they're "women" compete against each other. That is fair!
Dude I'm all about about LGBTQ rights and universal bathrooms etc but if science literally shows you have a physical difference in performance, then this is clearly unfair. This is why men and women have different benchmarks for men and women's skating for example. Triple axle is something mostly men do, not women. It has nothing to do with LGBTQ rights. It's just common sense. She should be competing with men, not women. I think a lot of people agree but everything is so polarized now that if you speak up, you'll be labeled as homophobic. Just like being against "abolish the police" movement automatically makes your racist in the eyes of your liberal friends.
She almost said "men" instead of "transgender women." 6:00 Oops!
She most definitely did almost do exactly that. Big oopsie if you're trying to sound non-judgmental while making these arguments, lol.
@@ayathiac5759 I don't know which was funnier--that or when the narrator described the British transwoman as a visiting fellow at 3:49!
Well... Lia is a biological man. That is still a fact and no matter how many female hormones she is taking now.... she is still a man. Biologically speaking.
@@karajo77 We're all supposed to participate in this denial of reality and pretend that they're women.
Black Awareness with Majelio Montenegro Real power is being able to make people say things they don’t believe. I refuse to adjust to something I don’t believe in.
Follow the science… Until you don’t want to
Leading the story with a trans -male is disingenuous. The debate is should the majority of female athletes, be punished to accommodate a few people. Trans-gender people should not demand that everyone else (other female athletes) accommodate them. Trans people are wrong on this issue.
Had to look pretty hard to find the one woman on a men’s team - nobody is complaining about that
Women don’t pose an unfair advantage in swimming. Duhr duhr I’m so bitter and I can’t reason. Duhr.
When women join mens teams they suck. They give themselves a disadvantage not the other way around
Does that older lady believe perhaps she got 12 percent slower because she is aging while transitioning?
He's like 70.
You mean older man.
@@dystopiaisutopia exactly
@@RealMTBAddict I’m just trying to respect her she wants to be a she so she’s a she for all I care. Not my business what she has or doesn’t have upstairs and downstairs. So for all intents and purpose I will refer to her as she/her. With that being said I do think it’s unfair for Cis women to compete against a trans women who went through male puberty before transitioning. It’s equivalent to training with top notch PEDs. For a couple years and coming off of them. They still reap the benefits.
@@DirtCobaine it’s impossible to change sex. Using female pronouns for a man insults women.
I don’t mind people being who they are but they need their own trans category period.
The whole problem is that trans women don't want to be excluded, since they insist that they are biological females, ridiculous. You are now not even allowed to say they are not real women.
This is just plain sick..
That skylar guy is really out here murdering brain cells
*Hilarious* watching men take over "women's sports." :)
Why don’t you think women should compete against other biological women? Why do you think it’s funny a woman almost died trying the win against a guy pretending to be a girl?
It's the ultimate leg up. Born a male, went through puberty as a male. By the time they switch over they are already physically and biologically developed. It's just completely unfair. There should be a separate category just for them.
True. But also having kids make decisions that could forever change their lives like taking hormones or hormone blockers.. its not fair for kids either.
This issue threatens to destroy women's sport. The greater good is surely served by encouraging girls to be involved and compete in sport, and dream about being Olympic champions, or whatever. If the podium places are consistently taken by trans athletes then that excludes 99.5% of the female population. That's not good for sport, it's not good for women, and it's not even good for trans women, because they will be a focus of resentment and backbiting. Compete against each other if you want to compete, and make a case for that being something worth following, but don't encroach upon the rights of a far greater number of cishwomen to participate and compete in sporting competitions
Sports teach us survival skills. By eliminating women from women’s sports, these men who say they are women are actually limiting women from being successful in the world. That’s a feature, not a bug. The only people who benefit from trans ideology are men…usually straight, like Lia who is also appropriating lesbians.
I'm sorry, but to put it bluntly, the equivalent of a dude in lipstick has no place competing on a women's team. Completely unfair advantage.
Maybe we should just get rid of sports in schools all together and focus on academics. That way there’s no doubt that trans and cis students are treated fairly
Sports teach survival skills such as teamwork, strategy & courage. We need sports. It’s a healthy outlet.
As a European, it has always been strange to me why on Earth do Americans play football, basketball, track&field, swim, etc in a frigging college/university.
They said that trans people are only 1% of the population. So we’re going to penalize 99% of students? How is that fair?
Then you'd better get rid of race while you're at it, since admissions are often different for different races.
Maybe we should just tell everyone that they will have to assume trans and cis identities from birth.
DNA will never change. He got his body when going through puberty and now is number one in the women's division... what a humongous jump between 462 to 1
Relax nobody's taking away your universe of beer and fried food.
@@jt-bw6qd I'm straight edge and I'm vegan pal try again.
@@kingcrimson1916 okay....relax nobody's taking away your toxic masculinity and your hatred of meat away
@@jt-bw6qd this is a real threat to women. It is erasing us.
@@jt-bw6qd wow never in my life have I ever met someone as stupid as you.
So, the trans identified female is taking testosterone...and she's being allowed to participate against men...
I'm going to be controversial, but allowing a participant to take testosterone but not the rest could be counted as a sex-discrimination act against the male athletes that are barred from taking testosterone due doping rules.
Men already have natural levels of testosterone in their bodies---that is why the legal doping rules identify the status of "enhancement" as the baseline for illegality. So, a trans woman attempting to attain the same levels of testosterone is not doping by the definition of the rules. You do know that there is a court of Sports arbitration, your argument is not novel..
@@D-E-S_8559 women also have natural levels of testosterone.
Allowing a woman to take testosterone but barring men to take testosterone in the same event for the same competition sounds pretty discriminatory to me.
Btw, when you say "trans woman" do you mean "woman that believes herself a man" or "man that believes himself a woman"?
@@tarnw3301 If you already established that women and men have established levels of testosterone then what is discriminatory about establishing an illegality in who has ENHANCED their testosterone, for the purpose of cheating?
How about what Maria Mutola, Caster Semenya, Margaret Wambui and other so called "intersex" women have to go through, just to compete --- where do we place a bar or a stop to bio-diversity or even human evolution in sports?
This manufactured and political controversies always often hurt someone, and the MOST of those innocents that suffer always happen to be African, Black or Brown athletes....
@@D-E-S_8559 ugh
@@D-E-S_8559 Yes, but the levels vary. So if you were "juicing up" while your male counterparts were not, you might have a drug induced edge. And yes, it would be discriminatory.
Of course, this ridiculousness would be avoided if people didn't insist you can pick your gender.
The scientist that said she lost 12% of time from when she transitioned, it’s never said that she grew older. The older you become, the slower you become.
Why is this even a discussion? It is absurd.
I agree with Nancy Hogshead-Makar. Trans women have too great a biological advantage for inclusion in serious sport competitions. Trans women should be included in all other avenues of society without harassment or public shamming. I wish they could get over their "marginalized" mentality and objectively take a look at what advantages they were born with. In short, Trans women should be trumped by women. Let women compete (in competitive sports) with each other.
"And are competitive fairness and trans inclusivity mutually exclusive?" Yes, I believe they are. Women deserve competitive fairness. Trans inclusivity is impeding that fairness. Title IX should be amended to state that in law.
What say you to the cis women who have the same features that Lia Thomas has even tho they are cis? Biological diversity exists you know. At what point is a cis women too biologically advantageous to compete in women's sports because of their genetics? Oh wait you don't actually care about that you just don't want trans people included because you are being transphobic. I get it now.
I am a Motorcyclist and Identify as a Bicyclist and I plan to enter a race
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
This whole debate hinges on "feelings". I feel a certain way, and you must accept that as reality. If I'm in my 30s or 40s, can I "identify" as a teenager, and enroll in high school? Who would accept that? I could argue all I want that it's how I feel, but could I go to court to force the issue? As for Lea? I see someone who was average, that found a way to get undeserved accolades. It's not good for women at all.
As a competitive former athlete this pisses me off . Women deserve the chance we have all worked so hard for and I'm sorry but sis women have rights too! Men don't mind competing against trans men cause they won't absolutely dominate the sport like a former man in women's sports will.
I thought men and women were equal? What's the problem?
@@thetruthhurts131 We are in regard to human rights not size and chemical .makeup. Have you ever taken an anatomy or science class?
@@beccagonzales8536 You sound sexist. Women can do anything men can do, and sometimes better
I might have to take issue with your last statement. I think if men did say they had issue with transmen competing, they would be shamed about competing against a biological woman. No different than when woman athletes feel they might be stigmatized and shamed with charges of transphobia if they brought up Lia Thomas.
@@terryr7622 that argument shouldn't exist because trans men pose no threat to "Male" sport. The argument is not psychological its physiological . Men don't mind because it's not a threat to you. I'm as progressive as they come but I'm a woman first.
As a Gay man I fully support transgender people some people simply are just born into the wrong body and I've known some very close friends and they live full happy lives however a person born a biological man has absolutely no right competing in women's sports. It's both extremely selfish and unfair. Lia Thomas has become a lightning rod and gives the right wing haters an "excuse" to begin to legislate hate. Young trans kids in Texas and now terrified that their whole lives are going to be ripped apart and the parents could possibly put in jail. Every person is entitled to live their life as they see fit and no one has the right to be decide how one person should live their life it has absolutely nothing to do with their lives. But unfortunately cases like Lia Thomas create a firestorm and puts in Jeopardy happiness and welfare of tens of thousands of people because of her selfish actions...
what about the women?? its all about u.. my daughter loses out because of a man in the pool?? women leagues are so women can play each other.
-Yes on Lucas on the men’s diving team..
-BIG NO on Leah’s competition in women’s swimming…common sense, fairness
The lefts logic is boundless
LOL - how about no to either? Why should a man have to compete against a confused female testosterone booster?
This is narcissism at its height.
These people are nuts
It's going to come down to one of two things...
DNA tests along with drug tests...or
a total loss of fairness.
This issue should be resolved soon or sports as we know it will be lost. The sad fact is for the (real) women athletes will lose podiums, endorsements, and worst of all...scholarships.
In the words of Gomer Pyle...Sham...sham...shame...sham...shame!
*women's sports will be gone, not sports in general. This won't harm male sports.
But many of these women had their eyes on scholarships.
I have the solution! Lets just let everyone compete against everyone else. No breakdown of a sport into women's and men's or even a separate trans category just everyone competes against everyone. Zero socially constructed discrimination possible in that. You either are up to the challenge or you are not.
Oh wait.... That would pretty much leave women out of competition in some sports and men out of others. I do not see any man competing with Simone Biles in floor gymnastics and you will not see women competing with Usain Bolt in track and field. I wonder what the root cause of this is? Oh right it is biology. The same biology that gives a trans person an advantage if they went through puberty as one gender that dominates a certain sport then transitioned into the gender that is weaker in that sport.
If you want fair competition you have to have a fair baseline. In most sports one biology dominates the other so, for fairness, you would have to have the baselines the same for proper competition which means you compete with the ones your biological growth was dominated by.
There IS an "easy answer," but nobody wants to get cancelled for telling the truth. It's the Emperor's new clothes.
I agree that "who I am inside" is what matters the most and everyone has the right to be themselves but who you are on the inside isn't causing the problem. It's who you were on the outside that causes competition to be unfair.
A trained male's body will always win in a physical competition with a female. What happens to Women's sports in the future when more of the athletes are transgender?
Forgive me for my ignorance and political incorrectness but...Women fought for centuries for our rights. We watched our mothers, grandmother's and great grandmothers fight for the right to just be treated fairly. We watched them bleed! Do transgender women understand that? Do they feel the suffering of centuries of abuse at the hands of men? Because, in my ignorant opinion, if they understood what women have had to fight for they wouldn't want to do more damage by competing against their best interest. Sometimes it's about the sport ... Not the individual athlete. Maybe they can't have their cake and eat it too.
I'm glad I don't have to make this decision. I do hope the best for everyone involved.
The thing is that that swimmer is intrinsically a man no matter how politically correct they want to put it, he'll always be a man.
I assist my husband from time to time taking photos of 5K, 10K, and marathon races. NEVER has a woman crossed the finish line first. No matter how 'woke' people want to be these days, this is a downright disgrace and slap in the face to these young women who have trained and sacrificed so much. What in the world must go through Lia's head at night while he/she is basking in the glory of this win...she's a dude for crying out loud and pretty swarmy one at that.
It takes balls to do what Leah Thomas is doing, that’s for sure
HE'S a coward! he couldn't beat men at his own sport so he went to compete vs women lol🤣
Just. create. a. separate. competition... They need their own division so everybody wins
How do you create a separate division when there are no other athletes to compete against? How many other trans swimmers were there in each of the stories? There was only one female swimmer and one male diver. That was it. Who are they going to compete against?
@@margarita6700My alternative is radical - if you are a male but feel female instead, then that's your business but you should be restricted to REMAINING within the framework of your birth biology. Swim in a female suit if you want, but compete against men and noone will have any issues.
The only debate involves cbs v. Sanity. God help us all
What a liberating sight to see a man crush those women in swimming. Next I’m looking forward to a non disabled person obliterating people in special Olympics. Maybe a young person to blast past some seniors in senior Olympics. The sky is the limit!
Thank you for approaching this topic with care and tact.
CREATE A NEW LEAGUE FOR THEM
EASY
The real insanity is how our society is debating this...
There should be no debate.
I feel like we’re all supposed to go along with the fantasy, to the point of changing birth certificates, and the head of the CDC, a doctor, saying “pregnant people.”
The solution for this matter is super super simple: if your chromosomes are XX, you compete with women, if your chromosomes are XY, you compete with men. Super simple. Gender and sex are distinct things. People confuse gender with sex because forms have the word "gender" followed by two boxes or a number of boxes. Hormone therapy does not change how muscles are attached to bones, which is one of the reasons for physical advantage of men over women.
It’s not as “simple” as you think. Have you had a look at your own chromosomes? You might be very surprised to learn a lot of people’s genes are not so “simple.”
True.
@@DawnStaceyEnnis yah but most are that simple.
@@DawnStaceyEnnis what do you mean by that? Could you elaborate a little, please?
Karyotype doesn’t define sex. XY females do exist. They usually find out at puberty when they don’t start a menstrual cycle and genetic tests show they have an atypical karyotype for a female. That’s because the SRY gene didn’t activate which would develop along the Wolffian (male) pathway, so they developed along the Müllerian (female) pathway and are therefore biologically female.
Less than 1% of the population, yet they certainly get a lot of attention. The world is upside down. How anyone could defend what Lia Thomas is doing is beyond comprehension. I blame the idiots at Penn. This absolute nonsense should have been stopped immediately!!
lets not forget bruce jenner got glamour woman of the year after one year being a woman.
Get ready for all the women records to fall in all sports
Inclusion and equality for all is very important. However, why does it have to be at women's expense? Equality for all isn't at anyone's expense. After all that has been accomplished for women's equality, now we don't care as much.
More talking more conversations less fighting more listening
The news is so deceptive in the way they air these stories. You notice how they started off with a trans man. A biological woman who's transitioning to a man. If a biological woman wants to compete in men's sports there's really no disadvantage to the men at all. The disadvantages to biological women or trans men. But if a biological male or trans woman wants to compete against women there's a huge disadvantage to women. I'm a libertarian for the most part and I believe in live and let live, yet at the same time I think this is Ludacris there has to be a better way to handle this transgender issue that to allow someone who's been a biological male for 25-30 years decide there really a woman and compete against women. The fastest woman runner in the history of the world gets her world records beat every year by hundreds high school's boys. This isn't an attack against her it's just men and women are biologically built differently. That's why we have a men's and women's division to begin with.
Ha! Opening remark is that trans athletes are being forbidden from playing sports?! It's more complex than you think?! Get a clue! 15 seconds into it, and I'm moving on!
More mask theatre for CBS
Oh CBS didn't make this up. This is a HUGE controversy in some circles and for a lot of people. Just because someone hasn't heard of it until now, doesn't make it inconsequential. This debate has vast implications for the future world of sports in general. It's something to take note of, for sure.
Wonder if the other competitors will ever have a voice. As of now they are politically homeless.
It’s pretty simple to see Lia has a real advantage racing against other women. You don’t have to be a doctor to see that.
what a ridiculous world we live in, this is simply ridiculous.
It really is so conflicting. I'm a feminist and LGBTQ+, but I don't know how to feel.
This "hottest" debate wouldn't exist would it not be for ratings chasers. This matter is XY versus XX chromosomes, testosterone versus estrogen, bigger versus smaller, and it's unfair to our daughters. The vastly silent majority is getting bullied by the LOUD trans minority. I believe in equal rights for trans people, but our girls born female deserve fairness in sport.
Total 100% disgrace that TG can compete at their non birth gender. Not at all fair to all the others that made the sacrifice
This should not be a debate!!!! This is an attack against women!! If people want to pre-tend to be woman. Fine! But go ahead raise money from fellow supporters to create a "genre" to compete as transgender.
The first specialist talking about advantages didn't convince me but when the pro-transgender activist said that they do have advantages but not noticeable i was convinced that trans-women should not compete in the female category.